Distributed Edge Architecture: The Future of Cabling Infrastructure

Distributed Edge Architecture is revolutionizing the structured cabling industry by decentralizing network intelligence and bringing connectivity directly to where it's needed. This approach dramatically reduces cable runs, simplifies infrastructure, and provides unprecedented flexibility for future modifications while delivering significant cost savings.

• Chris Hanshaw, Technology Director for Nicholas County Schools, implemented DEA in the rebuild of Richwood School after flooding
• The school eliminated multiple telecom rooms, saving approximately $100,000 per room in real estate value
• Fault managed power (FMP) converts AC to DC at a central location, distributing power via smaller, less expensive cabling
• Each classroom receives 10Gb connectivity with capacity for 100Gb through dormant single-mode fiber
• Commercial buildings can eliminate up to 80% of copper infrastructure with corresponding labor savings
• Jon Fine from Vision Technologies is implementing DEA in a 270,000 sq ft commercial building aiming for net-zero
• The system uses 157 "bit boxes" instead of multiple IDFs, all fed from a single MDF
• Modular, off-site construction allows for faster installation, better quality control, and reduced on-site labor
• Future applications include healthcare environments where minimizing disruption during changes is critical
• Class 4 power is now in the National Electric Code (Article 726), making it an established standard

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Distributed Edge Architecture
• 2:57 Chris Hanshaw: Richwood School Implementation
• 9:44 Benefits of Fault Managed Power in Schools
• 17:39 Cutting Costs with Sustainable Infrastructure
• 22:01 John Fine: Commercial Building Applications
• 31:07 Future Impact on Cabling Industry
• 39:18 Advice for Transitioning to New Technology
• 45:25 Episode Closing

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey Wiremonkeys, welcome to another episode of let's Talk Cabling. I got three words for you. Distributed Edge Architecture.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Welcome to let's Talk Cabling your gateway to the world of ICT Get ready to dive deep into knowledge and power.

Speaker 1: 0:33

Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by installers, estimators, project managers, project foreman, customers, it people. We're connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching this show on YouTube and you like this content, would you please hit the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? Those simple little steps helps us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Wednesday night, 6 pm, eastern Standard Time. What are you doing? You know I do a live stream on TikTok, instagram, linkedin, youtube, facebook, where you get to ask your favorite RCDD. You know that's me your favorite RCDD. Ask your favorite RCDD. You know that's me your favorite RCDD. Questions on installation, certification, design, project management, estimating. I even do career path questions, but I can hear you now. I'm drunk. I'm drunk. It's Wednesday night at 6pm. I don't want to get into an accident. Relax, I record them and you can watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free. If you find value in this content, when you click on that QR code right there, you can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course, and you can even buy let's Talk Cabling t-shirts. So if you've been in this industry for longer than two weeks, you know how we do everything.

Speaker 1: 2:03

In a physical star topology, the horizontal cabling runs back to the telecom room, the horizontal cross connect in the telecom room, and the telecom room can only serve up to 10,000 square feet and that's just the way we've been doing it for a long time. But there's this new thought process of how to do cabling. That's kind of been showing up in a bunch of projects all over the place and I wanted to bring on a couple customers who actually have implemented this and walk them through it. It's called Distributed Edge Architecture. So I've got two very incredible guests today who are at the forefront of deploying this cutting edge technology.

Speaker 1: 2:38

First we're going to have Chris Hanshaw. Chris Hanshaw was the person who led the rebuild of Richwood School in Nicholas County, west Virginia, and it was the first school I think, maybe even in the country to deploy a distributed ed architecture. So let's dive into his project. Chris, how are you doing, my friend? I'm good. Thanks for having me on, not a problem. Can you give us just the quick introduction? Who are you and who is it that you work for?

Speaker 3: 3:03

Yeah, I'm Chris Hainshaw. I am the technology director, facilities manager and transportation manager of Nicholas County Schools. So my background is mostly in technology. I started out Bixie installer 2, installed copper and fiber for over 10 years, then moved into the administration portion of it, mostly in charge of technology. Now that I've branched out to facilities, I've worked with Power over Ethernet for a long time and thought, man, there's got to be more to it. And imagine I'm purchasing equipment over years.

Speaker 3: 3:43

Most of the time our equipment replacement is not for speed but for power. We're always out of power because everything's going to power If the only reason for copper now is power. So whenever our schools flooded then when we went back I said I've got to do this different, there's got to be a better way. I looked around and I went several different directions and then I stumbled upon Sinclair Digital and they said we have a solution that's kind of been used. I said well, let's mix it up a little bit, let's completely power this whole thing and let's make a building so that I don't have to touch the network for 50 years. I want to retain the value of this. That's a good thing, yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:28

That's a good thing. I don't have to touch it for 50 years.

Speaker 3: 4:32

It's a big ask, but if designed correctly, I thought it was possible, and Edge architecture makes that real. It makes it real.

Speaker 1: 4:42

So you said that you had Bixie credentialing in your background.

Speaker 3: 4:47

Yeah, I was a Bixie installer too for copper and fiber. You're trained in the traditional. Yeah, I absolutely went to Tampa, went to Bixie headquarters, got certified and I was a real installer. So I'm a from the ground up person. Actually did the copper fiber grounding wired several new schools and it's angles in the tails of the feet. So that's my background before I went into administration and technology.

Speaker 1: 5:17

So you're not just an IT person, you're an actual wire monkey who actually did the work right. So let me ask you this what were some of the challenges and maybe even some of the opportunities that came up from this rebuilding after the 2016 flood?

Speaker 3: 5:33

Challenges is definitely so. I had three schools to flood and after the dust settled after after the dust settled, we agreed upon building two schools. Richwood school is opening um, actually, next week is when the students roll in, and my edge architecture is in there loving it and it's 120, I think it's 122 000 square feet and in the next two years I have 187,000 square foot school opening with the same edge architecture going in. So the challenges, of course, is always procuring the, the FEMA funding FEMA. We was, we was lucky enough that FEMA's funding our schools and um, we're using E-rate funds so that that helped a lot. Uh, it's not. So that makes it very cost effective. It's super cost effective using E-rate. It works the same way as your other category, two funds. So that's been great.

Speaker 3: 6:37

The challenges you know whenever you're going through federal things there's always a lot of red tape. That's just expected. Some of the challenges you may go through was explaining the newer technology to your architects, you know, because it's all about a process. They've done this thousands of times. They want to finish this project, they want to get it bid out, they want to go on to the next, but it's kind of a little bit of a curveball in the architects and it's a little bit of curveball to the electricians, it's a little bit of a curveball to everybody, but after they actually see it, it's one of those things that it's. It's really easy to explain, but until you see it it's, that's when you can take it all in, yeah, electricians and general contractors, they don't like change.

Speaker 1: 7:23

They don't like change. And so you're classically trained, you know, through the standard methodology of putting up traditional IDF closets and stuff like that, what made you choose to use the distributed edge architecture instead?

Speaker 3: 7:39

Distributed edge. Add. Moves and changes in a school system are always evolving. In a school system, the legislature meets. And now I have to put a camera somewhere, or now I have to put a microphone somewhere, now I have to put a new piece of technology somewhere. And so if, if you don't change the way you educate kids, then you know just the same as a doctor. If you, if you don't change the way you are a doctor, then eventually it's malpractice. Well, if you don't change the way you educate kids, it's malpractice. You're not giving them what they deserve and what they should have. So it makes it easier for us to keep up with changes.

Speaker 3: 8:19

Robotics is on the way. Ai is on the way. It's here. It's not on the way it's here. It's not on the way it's here. We need to be prepared for it. So, with edge, with edge idfs, um, all I need is a patch cable and I'm ready for it. Uh, you know, each one of my classrooms have the infrastructure in place today, right now, for 100 gig. 100 gig, each classroom can have 900 watts of power waiting for each classroom.

Speaker 1: 8:47

So I'm interested in that fault managed power stuff. Walk us through how that works.

Speaker 3: 8:54

Gauge managed power starts out. I got to eliminate about $100,000 worth of square footage because of fault managed power. Because I don't need square footage in the building for for idfs, I have one for for both facilities, so it's super scalable. So my 120 000 square foot building has one mdf. That's it I don't need. I got to eliminate six idfs, so six rooms worth of idfs in my 180 000 square foot building. So basically, fault managed power comes in, converts, converts AC to DC at one point. So then you're putting out DC power. I'm running 18-gauge wire to each box in the ceiling. It's a two-by-two box in the ceiling that serves two classrooms, has six use, has struts on, it opens beautifully, contains a switch for each classroom. I chose a 12-port switch for each classroom that puts out 300 watts worth of power.

Speaker 3: 9:55

So the advantage of fault-managed power is one safety. There's no fire risk. The way it works is it's a pulsing packet of power, so it pulses at 500 pulses a second. Then it has a header packet saying hey, I'm coming. If you lose two header packets, bam, it cuts off. So when it cuts off, everybody's safe.

Speaker 3: 10:16

There's no equipment harm. It's always clean power. So that's what kills most electronic devices. It's dirty power or drop in voltage or too much voltage. So now all my equipment is always getting clean power. Now all my switches in my racks have zero moving parts.

Speaker 3: 10:32

90% of the time when you have a fault in a piece of network equipment, it's because your conversion from AC to DC has failed. Your fan has failed because you're always creating heat when you do that. So I no longer have to do that. So with rugged switches, most manufacturers you look will say their average lifespan is 20 years and that's in harsh environments. So now your your your install cost. You can bring it down. The overall total cost of ownership is much cheaper because I don't have to replace the switch every five years because fans are going bad and your equipment is wearing out. Lots of speeds, lots of power that you're using your cameras you're not going to need higher speeds because you're putting out 4K. So your phones you're not going to be eating a bunch of power. So most of the things that operate off your switches is not going to require hardware replacement for years and years and years. So cost of replacement for switches is way down.

Speaker 1: 11:33

And switches are the expensive part of the structured cable plan. Yes, they are not cheap.

Speaker 3: 11:38

And also you know your distance limitations is very far Having one IDF. The major savings for fault managed power is because we can. We can shove lots of power over smaller cable, which is class two. So now you don't have to have, you know, very thick, expensive AC, you don't have to have certified electricians, you don't have to have EM electricians, you don't have to have emc uh throughout your building. So the install is so much cheaper. With my 180 000 square foot building that's getting built, uh, installing lighting, and with thought, managed power and the network saved us, it would save us approximately 1.2 million dollars. And the, the COVID, the war, all these things has created this because the cost of labor has gone up, the cost of material has gone up, and so that allowed for this to be very viable, whether you're pulling your first cable or managing multimillion-dollar installs.

Speaker 2: 12:42

You're not alone. Multimillion-dollar installs, you're not alone. Welcome to Low Voltage Nation, the largest, most active community of low-voltage pros in the game, with over 176,000 members on Facebook and growing. This is where ICT professionals connect, collaborate and level up together. Got a question? You'll get answers from real techs with real experience Facing a job site challenge. Someone here has solved it and will show you how. From fiber to access control, estimating to entrepreneurship, low Voltage Nation is your power network. This isn't just another group, it's a movement. Join the community today at lowvoltagenationcom or jump into the conversation at our Facebook group, because in this industry, the strongest signal comes from those who connect.

Speaker 1: 13:38

The two words I love that you said the most. That was cost savings. You know, on the commercial side cost savings is important but on your you know on the commercial side cost savings is important, but on your side, you know the school side, schools don't have big buckets full of money They've got. You know, you're going to FEMA and you're using E-rate money and stuff like that and they don't just hand that money out. You've got to jump through hoops and I really like the fact that you're finding a way to better efficiently use those funds.

Speaker 1: 14:07

You said 180,000 square feet. In fact, if I go by the standards, you're only allowed to have 10,000 square feet per telecom room. That'd be 18 telecom rooms that you're supposed to be having in that building and you're getting away with less. So you're saving the construction costs and the cabling cost and the equipment cost there as well. So let's talk about how are you getting? So you talk about you running the fault management power over the cable to get to those endpoints right, did you have to do any kind of calculations for like voltage, because some of your drops are like 2,000 feet away. So did you have to do any kind of voltage drop calculations or anything like that?

Speaker 3: 14:48

No, and I'll say Sinclair digital has been the easy button on this whole thing, because they they're the ones that are most familiar with fault managed power. I'm a network guy, so I I was the fiber, I was the hybrid cable, it it's a, and that's been the great thing about default managed power and the IDF is the lack of cable in your ceiling Down each hallway. I would have had 200 drops, because I have 10 classrooms in a hallway and now I have five hybrid cables running down my wire tray, and so that was a great advantage, as you don't need as big a wire trays. Um, so yeah, they're, they're. I've, we've pushed it a long ways, well over a thousand feet with with the same equipment, with no issues, and, and you know, like I said, as far as the power goes, sinclair's been my easy button. They, they've taken care of all that for me.

Speaker 1: 15:48

I noticed in the the project information that I was reviewing, it said that you deployed a bunch of dark fiber and dormant copper. Is that part of the future proofing strategy for you mentioned you wanted to be for like 50 years?

Speaker 3: 16:03

Yeah. So the way at this point in time I ran for every two classrooms, as a two-bassoose ceiling box that has six shoes in it, so it has two 12-port switches, has my power distribution and also has my fiber. I also have three pair of single-mode fiber going to each box, so right now single-mode fiber is capable of 100 gig, so I have a possibility of 300 gig to each box to service two classrooms. I'm also running I'm only running one right now because I don't need more. I mean I'm running 10 gig uplinks to each classroom right now. So day one we have 10 gig uplinks, which is a huge step. There's not a classroom that has 10 gig to every switch in each classroom at this point in time. But also with that dormant fiber, with Wi-Fi 8 and beyond, most manufacturers are guessing that an access point is not going to be able to run across copper, so you're going to have to power it and you're going to have to hook it straight to fiber. So in my buildings I already have the infrastructure in place to run single mode fiber straight to an access point and now I'm even skipping a layer, so because I'm running straight from layer one to every classroom. So the deepest any classroom is is layer two. But when I when I hook my fiber up, I'm going straight from layer one to every classroom. So the deepest any classroom is is layer two. But when I hook my fiber up I'm going straight back to the IDF in layer one and each switch takes about 270 watts and I'm running three pair of 18 gauge copper to each box and each pair can do 600 watts.

Speaker 3: 17:43

So a switch, only those switches, those rugged switches. They only run off about 300 watts. So I'm only consuming 600 watts of my possible 1800 watts. So you can use those spare coppers for USB-C charging, you can use them for access controls, you can use them for lighting. So that's why I say my building is ready, I have power ready for whatever I need to come my way If they add, moves and changes are now easy instead of as an installer. You know you always went and fixed after a new install went in because somebody put in a new cable for a new camera or something. Then they burn the cable putting it in. You know those problems disappear Whenever you need something, it's a 30-foot patch cable. Back to the Edge IDS.

Speaker 1: 18:27

So let me ask you this You're departing from the normal. You know, horizontal cross connect, a main cross connect, a horizontal cross connect and stuff like that, and it's totally different. And you mentioned you know you're operating on different layers of the OSI model. Now right, what kind of feedback have you received from the IT staff, or maybe even the administrators, on doing this so differently?

Speaker 3: 18:50

You know, if you have a good network, then your administrators forget about it, right, so you don't get complaints. So if you did your job, your administrators won't talk about your network because it just works. And in education, that's the way it has to be. Density is the name of the game in education. That's the way it has to be. Density is the name of the game in education. You've got 30 kids in a classroom and they're all using OneDrive or they're all making videos, and we have one-to-one devices. Every kid in our district has a device that's issued by the county and oh, wow, yeah, so I have 1,300 kids all on on and I allow them. We have a guest network, so it accommodates the guest network too, so the administrators don't have to say much because it just works.

Speaker 3: 19:36

And that's the thing about the kids, these interruptions. You know it is hard enough to get kids to school, to get your students there and get them learning. And yes, and the truth about technology in the school system is, if it doesn't work, they won't use it, they just put it down, and whenever that happens, then effective learning doesn't happen. You just have lower level learning. You don't have creating, and so it's one of the most important aspects of your school system is your network, because if it doesn't work, then then your kids are at a disadvantage Because, like I said, ai is here. You know that stuff is here Absolutely. If you don't have a network, you're not going to be, they're going to be behind the rest of the world.

Speaker 1: 20:21

Let me ask you this, chris, are you? Are there any other schools using this distributed technology? Are you guys the first ones, are you guys leading the charge?

Speaker 3: 20:31

I am the first one that I know of. There's been lots of people wanting to come see it. So, because it is eratable, because it is making your building ready, it truly is. So whenever they figure out it's fast, I mean it's fast and it's, it's all the power we need. So, yeah, as far as I know in the education world, this is it.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Yeah, you know you're. You're in my backyard. You know that, right, my family's from Maryland, that right, my family's from Maryland. And so the next time I come up to Maryland I might just have to take an extra day or two off and come visit you and check out this school. Yeah, I'd love for you to.

Speaker 2: 21:15

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Speaker 1: 21:59

So, while Chris and Richwood Schools are setting the tone for education, my next guest is doing the same thing, but he's doing it with corporate spaces. Now, the funny thing is he works for Vision Technologies, which my brother also works for Vision Technologies. So joining us now is John. Fine, john, how are you doing, my friend?

Speaker 4: 22:17

I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 22:20

Pleasure having you on. So you're working on a pretty interesting commercial project there over there in Falls Church, virginia. A funny thing is people outside of the Beltway don't understand the Beltway right and Tyson's Corner and Falls Church. For many, many years this is just a side note. Here's my ADHD for you we're always ranked the number one congested area for rush hour traffic. For like 10 years straight I hated doing work over in that area because I lived in College Park, maryland, so it did take me like an hour and a half to get home every night.

Speaker 4: 22:57

I'm right with you Having a job down there certainly get caught in a lot of traffic. My brother's family lives right in the area as well, so a little lucky there and when I go down the site I can actually just stop by and visit them and wait for traffic to die down.

Speaker 1: 23:10

Oh, that's a great. You know, I wish some of my family because it'd be a great thing to do is you just hang out with them until they have to rush out of traffic. So you're working on a pretty interesting project. You know 200,000 square feet and I think I remember right there aiming for net zero, right?

Speaker 4: 23:25

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 23:26

So what was the vision? Hey, there's a good tie-in for you vision technologies. What was the vision for using distributed edge technology or distributed edge architecture in that environment?

Speaker 4: 23:37

Yeah. So again, it's a 270,000 square foot building, it's a commercial environment, it's for an owner that, again, throwing the puns out there is certainly a bit of a visionary as well. But he's recognized the challenges of the construction industry and he kind of understands that you know there's a way to do this better. And he's not just looking from an IT and antenna system, both public safety and cellular reinforcement, and we are also doing all of the lighting and all of the convenience outlets. So when we started looking at this project, we started, you know, thinking about what a traditional office looks like. And I'm talking about an office, I'm not actually talking about the office building.

Speaker 4: 24:33

So, typically in an office environment like this. You know we're running a single Cat6A cable for a network port. You know, typically we're doing one port right now and we are for this customer as well. And then we started looking at the infrastructure needed for the lighting and the convenience outlets and we just started to see the number of cables that needed to be cabled to those locations just balloon. You're talking about multiple lights per office. You're talking about three convenience power outlets per office. You're talking about a switch to control the lights. You're talking about the occupancy sensor.

Speaker 4: 25:05

So instead of running a single cable to each one of these offices, we were looking at six cables to each of these offices. You're thinking about a 270,000 square foot building with 40 offices per floor. It's a ton of cabling. So we started looking at the Agile core architecture and with Sinclair Digital as well and we started to realize that if we kind of took everything out of the network closet and put it at the edge, we would be able to eliminate 80% of the copper that we would have to install inside that building. It's a huge cost savings. And you mentioned the customer's going for net zero, a guarantee he's going to hit net zero. The customer's going for net zero, I guarantee he's going to hit net zero. But the sustainability factors with eliminating 80% of the copper is phenomenal. And then you're starting to look at the cost and the cost is a little bit here and there these days with talk of copper tariffs and things of that nature, and so being able to eliminate all that has been a huge cost savings.

Speaker 1: 26:06

So when you say, let's make sure we clear this up, because you're saying you know you're running more cable, but you're also saying you're saving copper. So I'm assuming the copper you're saving is copper on the electrical side. Is that correct?

Speaker 4: 26:19

Well, it's all around.

Speaker 4: 26:20

So, when you think about so I'm again, I'm running six cables to each of these offices. So instead of running six cables at 250 feet a piece, I'm running six of them at 40 feet a piece. So I'm actually doing something similar that Chris is doing. So we are doing edge IDFs. We're calling them bit boxes. In the building there's 157 of them. They're going to be fed by probably the same cable that Chris is using a hybrid cable. Cable includes single mode fiber, it includes copper for the power and we're also doing this as a passive optical network as well. So we've got FMP, poe, pon in there, we've got all kinds of acronym soup going on, and so all that we're running outside of the single closet that we've got on the first floor is a hybrid cable to each of these 157 boxes in the ceiling.

Speaker 1: 27:12

So you were talking about the USB convenience outlets and stuff like that and I'm assuming they're using them for like their devices, like monitors and stuff like that. But you know, when I look at all the monitors I have here in my studio, they all plug in through 110 receptacles. So how are we making that connection for monitors and stuff into a USB convenience outlet?

Speaker 4: 27:34

Yeah, absolutely Through a lot of planning for one. So essentially every single office and every single desk in the facility will only have convenience outlets through USB-C, so none of them will actually get AC power. So that's obviously going to help them hit that goal of net zero as well. But we did it through testing. So we have proof of concepts installed at their research and development facility. We have proof of concepts installed at their current headquarters. But essentially you've got three convenience outlets of different wattages and so we've got one in there to power their docking station, we've got one in there that will power both of their monitors at their desk, and then we've got a third that will actually power the sit-stand operation of their desk as well.

Speaker 1: 28:19

Oh, that's interesting. You know you mentioned a couple of times cost savings, space, energy savings and all this stuff. How much do you really, how much do you really think they was saving by using this methodology?

Speaker 4: 28:32

Well, I mean, there's obvious savings, and Chris kind of hit them on the installation side of things. So we are also using a fault managed power system, and so, again, we are eliminating every single IDF in the building. Just have a single MDF on the first floor and all we're doing is running 157 of those hybrid cables out to these IDFs and then from there 40 feet, 30 feet, things along those lines things. Not only is it 80% less copper, it's also utilizing low voltage technicians instead of licensed electricians, and that's both for power and information.

Speaker 1: 29:13

That's a show topic right there the impact this is going to have by using low voltage skill sets instead of journeyman electricians. That's a controversial and a huge, huge topic down the road, just so you know.

Speaker 4: 29:29

Very, very much. I think you're going to see a lot of electrical companies out there acquiring low voltage companies. Just because of the prevalence of fault managed power that you're going to start to see in the next couple of years, there's really no reason to start doing it Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 29:43

The smart ones already are doing low voltage. They might focus on a little bit more now than they were in the past, because the funny thing is low voltage. We've always been the redheaded stepchildren of the voltage world. Right, we're just the last thought of and least liked when it comes to least liked when it comes to last in, last out.

Speaker 4: 30:10

We we always say it, and something that you've probably never heard in the past, and I certainly haven't until this project. Um, but because we've captured so many scopes, uh, with this customer, I know originally we were actually the largest contractor on site. Uh, we beat out steel, we beat out concrete everything that may have changed here towards the end of this phase of the project, but it was pretty incredible to be that largest contractor as a low voltage integrator.

Speaker 2: 30:36

Let's take a short break. Are you trying to reach the technicians, project managers and decision makers of the ICT industry? Then why aren't you advertising on let's Talk Cabling, with over 150,000 impressions a month across podcasts, youtube and social media? This isn't just a show. It's the go-to resource for the low-voltage industry. We spotlight the tools, training and technology shaping the future of structured cabling, and your brand could be front and center. Don't just get noticed, get trusted. Email Chuck at advertising at letstalkcablingcom and let's connect your brand to the right audience today.

Speaker 1: 31:37

So let me ask you this what would you say are the key?

Speaker 4: 31:39

advantages, both from the construction and the operational standpoint, of using this distributed architecture. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean obviously we've talked about the cost savings. So we'll go outside of that for a second and kind of mimic some of what Chris said earlier about moves and changes. When you think about the disruption of adding new cable and new power things of that nature, you've got to shut down portions of your building. You know you've got to get folks in there, maybe after hours if it's in a critical area, whereas now you know you're adding a patch cable. Or because we're doing passive optical network, if you need more ports, you're just changing out the ONT at that point in time.

Speaker 4: 32:15

You don't actually have to worry about pulling new cable from closets or anything like that. It's right there, it's easy to do and, because everything's tied together for both the IT and OT network, it's a single pane of glass.

Speaker 1: 32:30

from a management standpoint, Let me ask you are there any lessons learned or maybe design practice learned through this process that you would like to share with maybe the contractor listening to the show who might be planning a similar type of project?

Speaker 4: 32:45

I mean, first of all, I would say partner up. You can be good at a lot of things, but you can't be great at everything. So, just as Chris had mentioned Sinclair Digital, they've been a huge help throughout this entire process. We've also been working very closely with the lighting system manufacturer, lum L-U-U-M. But create a partnership, create a team, everybody's kind of working towards the same goal. But get those folks on board with you to be able to deliver properly and, I would say, even from a low voltage standpoint, to get involved as early as you possibly can. So for this project, it's been fantastic. We've been designing it for the past two years. We've been involved that long. We've been involved in full BIM coordination throughout the entirety of the building, for every access point, das, antenna, light speaker that we're putting in. Everything's been modeled ahead of time and so take that time. Up front, we took two years to design this project. It's only going to take a year and a half to deliver it. So take that time, make sure you're doing it right.

Speaker 1: 33:52

Okay. So now I'd like to go into a round table discussion where both Chris and John I'm going to ask you one question and I want a response from each of you and I really want to address the broader impact, because we talked about the project specifics up to this point, so let's talk about the broader impact to maybe the industry, right? So we'll start off with you, chris, first. Okay, no-transcript.

Speaker 3: 34:21

I'm 100% in belief that that is the future, because we can easily see the cost savings up front. But what you can't predict is the cost savings of the future without taking the tiles out of a whole hallway and running 200. We don't know the price of copper from now. So I believe it's absolutely going to be the future. And you know, in the industry, as you said, I've talked to electrical companies who are having trouble finding electricians and so, with the lack of labor, they're not afraid of the low voltage coming along. So I don't I don't know that all. I don't know that all journeymen are offended by it or all companies, because I think they're finding other avenues for them to have revenue sources.

Speaker 1: 35:11

Right, so that does make some sense. But I have worked in, have done projects in all of the states in the continental United States. I haven't done anything in Hawaii yet or alaska, but I've done everywhere else and I found that as a general rule of thumb. Now there's going to be pockets, that absolutely like you just said, but there's a general rule of thumb and I'm not sure why. But electricians always look down on the voltage, people yeah they just, they just they just do it.

Speaker 1: 35:42

It's unfortunate, but you know what Our worlds are coming together and we're really a lot closer. John, what do you think does this distributed ed architecture mean for the future of doing cabling the old way, with horizontal cross connects and stuff?

Speaker 4: 35:58

I mean, well, there are certain projects you're never going to get away from it, but you know, look outside of I love it in schools projects you're never going to get away from it, but you know, look outside of I love it in schools. Look outside of education and it's. It's working amazingly well within the commercial environment. But look outside of that as well. Look at somewhere like healthcare. When you're doing moves, ads and changes in a hospital, just think about not only just the time to go in and pull those longer cables, but you've got to have HIPAA filters, you've got a tent, you've got to shut down hallways. There is a huge impact to normal operations. So being able to do that from a distributed standpoint is just amazing and that's kind of cross all verticals as well.

Speaker 4: 36:39

And what we actually haven't talked about as well is and I see you're going to, you're going to see a lot of this trend in the future is removing construction from the construction site, um, doing things in more module uh nature. So you know I said that we're putting in 157 in these bit boxes. They will all be built off site, um, so we can do that in a controlled environment. We can test everything ahead of time we go there, we've already got the embeds in place and we pop these things in instantaneously. So there's a huge amount of savings there to do things off of the construction site as well. This type of architecture allows you to do that.

Speaker 1: 37:17

Gotcha. Next question, coming back to you, chris do you see fault managed power systems and PoE becoming the new standard for infrastructures?

Speaker 3: 37:27

You know, I really do. I see it especially in commercial. In commercial, because the install time is so much faster. In order to sell this to my architecture firm, I had to create a demo room. So I took a classroom and I got all the lights and I had a package delivered to me from Sinclair and from never laying eyes on fault managed power to installing it in a full classroom. I think there was 20 ceiling lights, all the cabling, all the switches, the edge idea. We was done in four hours.

Speaker 3: 38:03

So when you think about running EMC down a hallway and hanging lights and doing all that, the speed of the biggest cost of building anymore is labor. So labor, the cost of labor, the packaging, just like he said, when you get a pallet that has, hey, this is your lights and this is your Edge IDF and this is your switch, and you just take that to the classroom and you install it, it's already together. When you get a palette that has, hey, this is your lights and this is your edge idf and this is your switch, and hey, you just take that to the classroom and you install it, it's already together when you get there, I think that's the future. Like um, as he stated, the future is modular installs because it's faster, it's cheaper and it's more controlled. So that means it's it's more, more reliable john, what do you think?

Speaker 4: 38:44

yeah, I mean, when I look at fault managed power, the question always just kind of comes up of why not? It just makes sense, it's a cheaper install base. The cable itself is way smaller, way cheaper. And the folks that are pulling the power to the locations that they need them the access points and cameras and DAS antennas things that are pulling the power to the locations that they need them to access points and cameras, and DAS antennas things that are remote. Getting power out to those you know has always been an issue. Once you start to see a lot more of these devices with integrated FMP receivers, you're going to see these things all over the place. It's safer, it's cheaper, it uses less electricity. There's really no reason to do it. And everything that you're using your computer, your camera, your lights, whatever they may be they're looking for DC power anyways. So a lot of that lost energy through the bricks that are attached to your electronics, those all get to go away and all that wasted electricity gets to go away.

Speaker 1: 39:46

You know, I've got a drawer full of those little brick things that just because whenever you get a new phone and you get a new one, and just what do you do with the old ones, Right? So so come back to you, Chris. What do you, what would you say to a designer, or maybe even a low voltage contractor who's still hesitant to move away from the traditional models, the traditional, you know, main cross connect, the horizontal cross connect?

Speaker 3: 40:11

You know, we've got to keep open mind and, as I stated, if you don't change the way you do things, then you're falling behind. So, if you want to keep business, you're going to, you're going to evolve with the business and and, whether you like it or not, this is the future. It is better. At least give it a look, show up. I would be glad to show it to you. The Secular Hotel is beautiful in Fort Worth, texas, that's been using fault-managed power for lights since 2016. It's not new, it's not scary, it just hasn't been implemented.

Speaker 1: 40:45

So, john, what would you say to the designer or maybe the low voltage contractor who's still hesitant to move away from the traditional, you know, physical star topology? The main cross connect to the horizontal cross connect.

Speaker 4: 40:58

Well, I mean, you're talking to a low voltage integrator, so I don't think we have any issue with kind of moving into the future as far as power and the topology is concerned. I think the problem right now is you see a lot of architects and electrical engineers and they've been taught you know the way to do it and they're going to continue to do it that way, and what you really need is you need to have an owner. I need to have an owner like Chris. You need to have an owner, like involved in the project that I'm working on, that actually just stands up and says you know, there is a better way to do this. It might not be the way that we did it last time, but it's going to be the way that we do it next time.

Speaker 1: 41:40

You know, the thing is is, if we always did it the way we've always done it, we would still have POTS cabling. Just saying. Just saying. Absolutely. Last question, Chris let's talk to the ICT technician, the Big C installer, copper installer, fiber professional. They want to get ahead and they want to start learning about these types of systems. What?

Speaker 3: 42:04

would be your recommendation. My recommendation is look at your rugged equipment. That's the way we're going is rugged equipment. I hope the manufacturers focus on this a lot more, because that's what we need. You know the infrastructure. Honestly, it's not that much different. We still have structured cabling, it's just in a different arrangement. You know now we're running 20 foot patch cables instead of. You know when you're going to a classroom you're not running 200 foot down the hallway. As an installer, this would have been the greatest thing ever, because there's nothing worse than going into a 40 year old school and trying to pull off tiles that have insulation on top of them and hard to tell what's going down a hallway and trying to pull off tiles that have insulation on top of them and hard to tell what's going down a hallway and trying to drill through a school that's been added on three times and the walls are three foot thick. As an installer, this would have been great, because you just walk in and you walk out and it's easy.

Speaker 1: 43:02

Bidding or done that, got the t-shirt. You know, you left out one very important facet of that kind of an install setting up a secured work area so the students don't walk into your ladders or trying to find the uh, the uh, the janitor for the school, who's the only person has the key to the telecom rooms.

Speaker 3: 43:19

Yeah, you left those important details out and I've ran into live wires in the ceiling and everything else and and just the amount. I would think that insurance companies should catch on to this because the chances of a building fire is so much lower, the chances of a worker getting injured is so much lower. So I mean I honestly think that insurance companies would catch on to this and say we would prefer this because their liability goes way down.

Speaker 1: 43:46

Oh yeah, they're all about statistics, right, all about statistics. So, john, what advice would you give to that installer or technician who wants to get ahead and learn more about fault managed power systems?

Speaker 4: 43:58

Yeah, I mean the good part is it's easy Fault managed power. If you're a low voltage technician you already know how to terminate it. Simple terminal block type stuff. It's easy to run, the topology of it is easy to understand. I mean I would say to get out there. And you know, listen to some content out there on YouTube. Take a look at Sinclair Digital. Take a look at from fault fault-managed power standpoint. You know, volt Server and Panduit both have solutions. It's out there. This isn't some kind of magic trick. I mean I don't even know if we mentioned it, but fault-managed power is in the National Electric Code.

Speaker 4: 44:36

It is class 4 power. It's not an outlier. It's there, it's ready to use and it's more job share that a low voltage integrator technician can capture.

Speaker 1: 44:47

Yeah, it's addressed in Article 726 for those who want to go read the code book Massive. Thank you, chris Massive. Thank you, john for coming on today to giving us a front row seat of your project. I look forward to maybe at some point coming out to see you. I appreciate you guys coming on today.

Speaker 4: 45:05

Yeah, absolutely, thank you.

Speaker 3: 45:07

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 45:25

Thank you for joining us on let's Talk Cable and stay tuned for more episodes filled with innovation. Keep connecting, keep achieving. Until next time.