Build Your Own BICSI Training Lab

We dig into the true cost of training and why a BICSI Authorized Training Facility can lift quality, win bids, and cut rework. Teresa Johnson shares what it takes to build one, from vendor‑agnostic walls to T3 prep, plus the mistakes to avoid.

• what a BICSI ATF is and why it matters
• differences between suitcase training and building in‑house
• Teresa’s path from field tech to trainer
• union and non‑union training strengths
• cost drivers and how to lower them with partners
• BICSI requirements, staged approvals, and inspections
• trainer certifications, T350 and T3 process
• operational checklists, calibration, and scheduling
• demand cycles and who pays for training time
• workforce impact, fewer callbacks, stronger bids
• top build mistakes and multi‑vendor sourcing
• choosing eight seats vs sixteen seats
• where to start and how to contact BICSI

If you find value in this content, would you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me. After hours, of course, to help support the show. You can even buy Let's Talk Cabling t-shirts

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening, Housekeeping, And Livestreams
• 2:28 Why Training Feels Expensive
• 4:48 What A BICSI ATF Actually Is
• 7:55 Meet Teresa Johnson And Her Background
• 11:45 From Early Cabling To Modern Standards
• 15:40 Union vs Non‑Union And Training Quality
• 18:35 Building Two Labs: Costs And Scale
• 22:20 Getting Buy‑In, Funding, And Donations
• 26:00 BICSI Requirements And Verification
• 29:30 Trainer Path: T350, T3, And Delivery
• 33:10 Hard Lessons And Real‑World Failures
• 36:40 Operations: Scheduling, Gear, And Consumables
• 40:10 Demand Cycles And Who Pays For Training
• 43:00 Do ATFs Improve Workforce Quality

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hey Water Monkeys, welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Cabling. You think Big Steak training is expensive? I got a way for you to do it a little bit cheaper.

SPEAKER_00: 0:09

Welcome to Let's Talk Cabling, your gateway to the world of the game.

SPEAKER_01: 0:48

If you're watching this show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content's being produced? If you're listening to one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind giving us a five-star rating? Those simple little stops help us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage, and enrich the lives of the ICT industry. Wednesday night, 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, what are you doing? You know I do a live stream on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and everywhere else I can figure it's send an in a live stream where you get to ask your favorite RCDD. And you know that's me. Don't even try to pretend like I'm not. Questions on installation design, certification, project management. I even do career path questions. But I can hear you now. But Chuck, I'm driving my truck and whispering guys, it's like me up. I don't want to get out of an accent. Breathe in. Breathe out. I record them and you can watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free. If you find value in this content, would you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me. After hours, of course, to help support the show. You can even buy Let's Talk Cabling t-shirts. So I one of the comments I hear quite often is, Chuck, we want to get some training. But Pixie training's so expensive. You know, we can't, you know, by the time you fly somebody to Tampa and you put them in a hotel and you feed them and you pay for the costs, and and then then they may or may not pass a test, you know. Pixie training is expensive. You know, Tadho used to say. You think knowledge is expensive. Try stupidity. That's that's expensive, right? So a lot of there's a couple different ways to help reduce that cost. And one of the ways is to build your own ATF, right? Authorized training facility. We'll talk about what that is in a second. Another way is to actually have Bixie come to your company to do what's called a suitcase training. I've I've reached out to Bixie, we're in the process of trying to get that show put together and all this stuff. So you'll see that method probably Q1 next year. But an authorized training facility is basically it's your training facility that you build that's approved by Bixie for you to teach the Bixie curriculum. You know, there's certain things you gotta meet, it's got to be vendor agnostic, it's gotta be certain square footage size, you have to have I think I think it's one student, no, no, no, one instructor per eight students. So if you want to do 16 students, you have to have like two instructors, and those trainers have to go to Bixie to attend the T3 class to become Bixie certified trainers. So there's a significant amount of money invested in the front, but then you get to teach your people, or there's actually two different licenses. You can buy teach just your people, or you can teach the general public to help recoup some of them costs. So a lot of people are aware of the Bixie ATFs, and I get questions all the time. I just had a question two months ago. Somebody wants to build a Bixie ATF in a local high school, and uh so I connecting with the bit the right pig Bixie people and stuff like that, and he was asking me what's it gonna cost, and and I gave him some numbers because I built a Bixie ATF once I did 25 years ago, and so the price has probably changed just a tad little bit since then. But one of my friends on LinkedIn, you know, it's it's people always say it's not what you know, it's who you know. So one of my friends on LinkedIn that I love watching her content is uh is Teresa. Teresa is on uh she's putting she's she's a uh FOA instructor, she teaches for the JATC, she's Bixie certified. Very knowledgeable. In fact, we probably spoke, we probably talked reminisced for 30 minutes before we actually hit the record button. Some of the stuff you missed because you're not you don't hear during the before the record. So I asked her to come on to talk about ATFs, you know, motivations, costs, and hurdles that they had to go through. She didn't build just one, she has built multiple of them. Multiple of them. So so welcome to the show, Teresa Johnson. How are you doing? Hi, Chuck.

SPEAKER_02: 4:43

I'm doing great. I am happy to be here. Can't wait to uh get into this and and help other people bring uh structured cabling to to the masses, right?

SPEAKER_01: 4:57

Right, absolutely love that, love that. So you've been on the show before, but let's say somebody might have missed that episode. Give us the 50,000-foot view. Who are you? What's your structure? Why should why should we listen to you?

SPEAKER_02: 5:11

Considering that I started doing structured cabling. Well, actually, it was before structured cabling, back when we had application-dependent cabling. In the early 90s, I was fortunate enough to be working up in the Seattle area where Boeing was uh developing their 777. And you had to have certifications just to make prototype wiring harnesses. So I was AMP and C Core certified in the early 90s. And C Core isn't around anymore because they are now Siemens and Corning, which they were before, but they joint ventured for the fiber optics that was just, you know, emerging back then. So uh yeah, I did um application-dependent cabling for a while, did every kind of connector, every color code, every everything until category cable came along. And then um I recall asking my boss, oh, why why does it how do we know that the wires need to be twisted like that? Why does the wire know? And and I didn't understand electrical characteristics. So I I fell in love with um understanding how data was transmitted and kind of flowed from there. I went to work for a uh structured cabling company, installing, never ever cutting in a caddy before, but terminating everything. Uh and I did that for a while, and then I took a little bit of time off because of my children. I have three children, I was having my last, and when I re-emerged on the scene, I was in Cleveland joining the IBEW.

SPEAKER_01: 7:01

So let me ask you this. Uh, you know, so you've got field experience and you got training experience. Uh you've got IBEW experience, you got BIX experience. That makes, in my eyes, that makes you one of the best trainers out there because most people get hyper-focused on just one or the other. And that's why that's why I hate the I hate the conversations when people get on, you know, one of the many Facebook groups or whatever. Which is better the uh the uh the uh the union or non-union. Well, they both have great things before them and they have some feelings. Um one thing I will say with IBW, they've got one of the great greatest training programs around. I love the J A T C stuff. And uh especially like if you do like you've got like a lab like our friend uh out in Las Vegas has, right? Uh Matt, he his training facility is just amazing. I I that would be the Taj Mahal for me to teach in, right?

SPEAKER_02: 7:51

Um but um and that's actually where my first uh ATF is as is in local 354's um JATC. I built that uh all by myself on a budget with my apprentices. So, you know, you hear these numbers that fly around$250,000 and and so on to build your ATF? It's absolutely uh not really in the real world. If you have vendors that are willing to help you, it's it's far, far less if you have free labor with uh people that want to help you. We're gonna go down that route.

SPEAKER_01: 8:32

We're gonna talk we're gonna talk about pricing. We're gonna hit that. Let me ask you, what was the spark that made that made your your your manager decide you needed a Bixie ATF?

SPEAKER_02: 8:43

Well, I've had two experiences with that so far. Um, well, my first ATF was in Cleveland. That's where I became a trainer, and that was um in the early, like I think it was 2012. So I got to work in it in an ATF before I ever got to build an ATF. At the trade school in Utah, they were all in. Electricians um have their curriculum and and it's all fluid. They've been doing it for so long, prepping for you know the uh the licensing and and so forth, but they didn't have a uh VDV, but what we call it now is limited energy because um in the NEC there is not a definition for low voltage or VDV. So limited energy is and it's a big part. We are a big part of the electrical world.

SPEAKER_01: 9:46

That's a big thing I used to argue with people all the time about because they're they're like, oh, we're low voltages. I'm like, show me where in the code book where it says low voltage. Right. Okay, I'll wait. I'll wait. Um, but you're right, there's nothing in the code book that says low voltage. And then and of course with the 2026 code book coming out now, or came out, it's not not coming out, it's out. Um, I've got mine, by the way. It's sitting up in the new podcast studio. Maybe I'll take it with me on vacation to read it while I'm on vacation.

SPEAKER_02: 10:11

On a side note, have you heard about the 2029?

SPEAKER_01: 10:15

I heard they're breaking up into 30 sections.

SPEAKER_02: 10:18

Well, I have the white paper on it. Um and it's 20 sections. Uh yeah, I kind of have an in with um the NEC because they're very involved with our IBEW organization. So yeah, I'm I'm fortunate. But uh yeah, we'll we'll share that later.

SPEAKER_00: 10:38

Let's take a short break. Are you trying to reach the technicians, project managers, and decision makers of the ICT industry? Then why aren't you advertising on Let's Talk Cabling? With over 150,000 impressions a month across podcasts, YouTube, and social media, this isn't just a show, it's the go-to resource for the low voltage industry. We spotlight the tools, training, and technology shaping the future of structured cabling, and your brand could be front and center. Don't just get noticed, get trusted. Email Chuck at advertising at let's talkcabling.com and let's connect your brand to the right audience today.

SPEAKER_01: 11:25

So, yeah, absolutely. So so you've built two ATFs, right? Built two of them. Uh, it's kind of like I tell people all the time, you know, I've got six kids. They're all similar, they all have two arms, two legs, and a head and a body, but they're also very different, right? Right in the same spec. How how is how are the two labs that you built? How are they the same and how are they different in size of like scope, size, and the resources you needed? Perfect question.

SPEAKER_02: 11:51

So the first ATF that I personally built was at local 354's J A T C. Um, that's the IBEW, and I had every resource the IBEW could put behind it, including manufacturers, donating materials, and so forth. So that was an amazing experience. It still took me quite some time. And I have to say, after I went and took the T3 for or the uh 350 for the third time, um, I actually had to come back and change some stuff because little things that you don't really remember, it's really important to go over all of that before. And that's why they require you to have the the 350 within three years of building your lab. But anyway, uh that was the IBW, all support that you need. My most recent ATF is at the Salt Lake Community College. Salt Lake Community College had an ATF under the way underway, was looking for a trainer. And they had somebody that they thought was going to be able to be their trainer. And unfortunately, like you said, not everybody passes that test. Not everybody passes it the second time. Fortunately, I've passed it each time that I've gone. When um I had a little change in scenery, I I joined a ATF that was underway. They have had support from a local carrier, and um it has cost them significantly more, upwards around that number of uh, you know, quarter million or so. I had to do all of the final testing, I'll do the final videotaping and and everything, making sure that we had everything for Bixie. Uh so the two are starkly different. One was designed for eight students, one was designed for 16 students. And really, 16 is just double the eight. Put put a set of racks and wall filled on the other wall. Connect them together with some some ladder tray, whatever it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:14

Yep. So what was your biggest challenge? I mean, because I remember when we did ours, um, the first hurdle I had to clear was getting buy-in from from lead. Now, my the my ATF was was a was a structured cable company, a large structured cable company, but it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't a college or the IBW, it was a it was a company. So I had to get buy-in from my leadership, you know, get them to understand the value of training, and then the funding to do it. Now, I I will say this the number that we had is nowhere near that number you threw out there. Um we were at counting labor, not we were probably about twenty thousand. Wow, but that was twenty-five years ago. It was yes, yes, it was. That's significant as well. One of the ways that I got to cut the cost, and we we'll talk about this later on, is I reached out to manufacturers and said, Hey, I'm building a build a Bixie ATF. I need to have all different kinds of blocks. We don't have any yours. Can you donate some?

SPEAKER_02: 15:11

Local contractors.

SPEAKER_01: 15:13

Yeah, you'd be surprised how many would jump through the hoop to have their products put in you know on the wall someplace, right? So what was your biggest challenge? Was it was it the leadership? Was it the was it the funding? Was it the design? What was it?

SPEAKER_02: 15:26

Um with my first ATF. First, with the first ATF, my biggest challenge was materials. Getting some of the requirements for the wall field, a little challenging. Um, I won't go into specifics, but uh we could at a later time. In my second ATF, the challenges were not as significant because a lot of the work was already done. I just had to tweak what was actually there. So significantly different in cost, though. Like you were saying, yours was my my uh my cost for the trade school was about forty-six thousand dollars. Okay, and that we had a lot of the test equipment already, we had a lot of the fiber equipment already because I'd already been teaching all of those things. But if you are starting from scratch, uh there's a lot of requirements.

SPEAKER_01: 16:26

Well, yeah, see, we already had the certifiers, we already had all the fire tools, and I didn't have to buy any of that stuff. So for me, the cost was really, you know, the ladder rack, the conduit, the pull boxes, um, the labor to put it all in. And that's one of the reasons why that price is kind of on the lower side. And and like I said, we had technicians there. We had luckily we we did it in we built it, I want to say it was like third quarter or fourth quarter, where tradition was slow for us. So we had we had the choice of either sending technicians home or say, wait a minute, we're building a lab, give them to me.

SPEAKER_02: 16:59

Right? Right, exactly what I did. My apprentices, anytime uh the other classes, I had electrical apprentices at my um ability to utilize, right? So when we had to do the conduit and the pull boxes and the uh work area outlets, all of that was was free labor for sure. Um, on a side note, though, I think I took one of those classes from you. I know I took one of those classes from you, and it's where we first met.

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

So you're you're you're one of those 20,000 that I quoted early.

SPEAKER_02: 17:36

Back in the day we had to. I mean, what other Bixie training was were we getting CECs from? Not much.

SPEAKER_01: 17:42

So Bixie has a lot of people don't realize this because one of the hurdles they have is well, how do I build the lab? How big does it have to be? What do I have to have? People don't realize, number one, Bixie has a whole tr a whole PDF booklet that you can download and it's gonna tell you everything you need and the size, depending on you know the number of people, or you or is is all of it gonna be some of it gonna be lecture, some gonna be class. I mean, there's they got all the parameters there, right? So after you build your lab, how did you ensure that your ATF met the uh the Bixie standard?

SPEAKER_02: 18:15

Clearly, what you just said was Bixie lays out exactly what Bixie wants for their lab. And as you said, I had stacks of of check marks. I literally at one point had a four by eight whiteboard that I put all the necessities, the um test equipment, everything that was required. And as I got them, I would just check them off. But I had my bixie book, right? They they literally um have you download uh different sections, they don't give it to you all at once. You have to get uh 25, 50, 75 percent on your lab before you ever get the next set of parameters that you have to um have to fulfill.

SPEAKER_01: 19:13

So what they did with me was after we after we got ours built, um, when we scheduled our first class, they actually sent one of the Bixie master trainers to come out and sit in a couple days of the class and then inspect the lab. So that's how they did it with us. They did so make sure that we had it, we did all dotted our I's, cross our T's, and had you know multiple, you know, multiple vendors for connectivity products and stuff like that. I was just wondering if they're still doing that same thing, or because you didn't mention something about doing a video.

SPEAKER_02: 19:43

Yes. So what I had to do was they they have the option of coming out and and us, you know, taking care of their uh flight and stay and all of that stuff to to view the lab, but they also have an option for you to. Do videos and literally they give you bullet points of exactly what they want to see in the videos. You can either have them silent. I uh chose to narrate um from that list so that they could see exactly what uh we were installing at the time. So Bixie, honestly, they give you point by point, bullet by bullet, everything that is required.

SPEAKER_01: 20:28

You you mentioned the Bixie trainer class. I've taken that class as well too. And you know, a lot of people they they you know the I've I talked to a lot of people who go take the the Bixie Tech class, the Bixie installer cop or installer fiber class. Those are five-day classes, and then you take the exam, you know, you know, on the fifth or the sixth day, depending on on where and how it's being administered, stuff like that. But yeah, the the the instructor class, unless they've changed it, when I went through it, it was two weeks. Two weeks. The first week they taught you the curriculum from all three classes, and then the second week they divvied up the class to all the students, and you had to teach it back to the class, you had to teach it back to the to the master instructors, right? Um was that the process the same when you went through your Bixie Trainer class?

SPEAKER_02: 21:16

Um, I've been through three Bixie Trainer classes, and it wasn't like that. They've updated the process because of the 350. So the rec my first time going to Florida, I had to take the 350 class. I already had the certification, so I didn't have to test, but I had to have it within three years and I had not. So it was a two-week class because they did them consecutively. There were several of the students in the 350 class that went on with me to the T3 class. So that was they eliminated that by having the 350. You have to know everything from the copper and fiber in the technician. So they said, if you have the technician, you have all of the all of the understanding. Now we just need to teach you how to deliver the bixie curriculum.

SPEAKER_01: 22:19

That's one of the hardest things to do, right? Because that's why I tell people all the time, you know, to be a trainer, it's like the trifecta, right? Because number one, you have to be somebody who is okay with public speaking, being up in front of people and talking. You have to you also have to you have to be a I don't want to say a subject matter expert, but you have to be very fluent, right? You know, in the copper and fiber optics off. And and then the third one is you have to have thick skin. Because you're you're gonna have good students, you're gonna have bad students, you're gonna have students who challenge you, and you're just gonna have to have thick skin and understand that you're gonna have you're gonna have them students who just kind of sit there with their arms crossed, you ain't teaching me nothing. I've been doing this my entire life for 15 years. Right. You have to have thick skin. And and that's a hard, that's a hard, that's a hard billet to fill. Because it's it's the you know, otherwise call it the holy trifecta.

SPEAKER_02: 23:17

And at that point, when I have those people, and you know I have, I've been doing this for more years than I want to say. Um, what what you have to do is give them a real life story. And I had uh a fiber real life story that took a company under because the guy that had been doing the fiber in-house for you know 15 years did it the same way, always did it, except he didn't use the crimping ferrels. And it happened to be a college, and he did all the terminations for 20 buildings, and Corning came out and literally said, it's not our fiber, it's not our connectors, it's your termination. They didn't have a bond, and it it took the company down. So, very, very important. Absolutely, we've been doing it forever. But an ST is not an LC, and a hot melt is not a fusion splice. So you have to continually learn, continually educate yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 24:30

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SPEAKER_01: 25:16

Uh let's let's move our conversation to operational considerations. Once you got your labs built, right? Um, what kind of routines or processes did you have in place to make sure that you had classes scheduled, you know, that you're your your tools were calibrated, like the certifier, stuff like that, to make sure you had enough inventory? Because you go through a bunch of jacks.

SPEAKER_02: 25:35

Oh, more than just jacks, uh, cable and having all the different types, uh, all the different necessities, uh, fiber, safety kits, you know, all the safety stuff, hard glass, our hard hats, safety glasses, gloves, the black mats, all of that stuff. Uh, but besides all of the consumables, uh, I was very fortunate with the first and second JATC that I worked in because I had the opportunity in the first that had uh scheduling, uh push it push-outs for the members to be able to take those classes. And then the JATC, we had uh checklists for everything. I had plenty of time to get all of that taken care of before a class was ever even taught. Very fortunate. IBEW I love, but I understand not everybody can be an apprentice in the IBEW, and they don't have to be to be a certified technician with the credentials that are recognized internationally. My second uh I haven't I haven't done yet. I'm doing it all myself. We just certified about three weeks ago uh at the Salt Lake Community College, and I'm going to be offering classes in the spring.

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

Did you do you find because we did our classes once a quarter, so it was I could count on like book work, right? Um, but again, I was a contractor doing teaching our own people. Um, you're teaching apprentices and stuff like that. Do you see high demand fluctuations? Maybe certain parts of the year we have more people interested, or or other times of year where there's less people interested?

SPEAKER_02: 27:28

The higher demand times are those low times, those slow times, kind of like now through you know, first quarter when everybody's used up their budget and they're planning for their next year. That's when companies, instead of having their guys sit or do busy work, send them to training. So often in the fall and in the early spring, we have a big boom. Obviously, in the summer, there's a lot of work going on everywhere, less at that time, and harder to get them into class and and being able to focus because they've got so much other stuff going on.

SPEAKER_01: 28:10

You had mentioned that when uh when when the workload is is is uh is you know the build everybody's building stuff, you know, you get less students, right? And then when the workload is lighter, you get more students. When uh let me let me ask you this, and I kind of know the answer from on my side, but I want to hear from your side, right? So when when somebody goes to training, they still make money, but who's paying that salary while they're training? Is it the IBW paying that or is it the the contractors paying that?

SPEAKER_02: 28:42

Um depends. It could be both, or one or the other. Often there is an increase in pay over scale for your Bixie. Um, and so your contractors need Bixie certified uh installers to install according to the RCDD on the T drawings. A lot of times the contractor sends you my first Bixie certification, I was sent by my contractor.

SPEAKER_01: 29:17

There you go. So let me ask you this, because you know, you're you've been on both sides of this coin. You've been you've been a person working out in the field, you've been a trainer. Do you feel that even that even solidifies this question even better for you, right? So do you feel that having an ATF impacts the workforce quality? Definitely.

SPEAKER_02: 29:38

Um as a technician coming up from the early 90s with barely any training, there was some manufacturer training back then. But coming up and going through Bixie, my first Bixie was, I believe, in 1997, uh, might have been 98. And understanding why we were doing the things, not just how we were doing the things, made a humongous difference in in change, or not changes, but but uh you know callbacks, miswires, uh over-length cables. I was the testing guru back then when we had the omni scanner and the penta scanner and all of these old certification tools. So yeah, Bixie really ignited my understanding that this isn't just pulling a wire and putting a jack on it and punching it out on a block, it's really a portion of a much bigger thing, and that's data transmission.

SPEAKER_01: 31:00

Right. Right. So this this comment isn't is not for you, Teresa. This comment is to the listener, right? Because and the reason I'm gonna say this is because very recently, you know, after we teach every class, especially the online classes, um, the students get issued a a course evaluation form where they get the ranked instructor, the curriculum, all that stuff. And you know, the funny thing is, is I I love the I love the evaluation forms where they tell me where I've fallen short. I you know what, I get somebody in saying, fuck there's a great instructor, but that doesn't help me. Right. That doesn't help me. Oh yeah. I'm like, be realistic, okay? I want to interrupt. And she says you need to reword the question, is because a lot of people they don't want to say anything negative. So what you say is instead of asking them, you know, how did the instructor do, ask them what can we do to be 10% better? And she says that'll open up the door for A. But anyway, that guy's a digress. I'm chasing squirrels. I got ADHD, or is it well? Actually, it's my German shepherd licking my elbow.

SPEAKER_02: 32:00

I I get that too for my national. I get that too for my national training, but it always seems to be either I did fantastic and they learned stuff they never ever really understood made, you know, sense, or I need more fiber. It's always I need I'm teaching a copper class, and they're like, I need more fiber.

SPEAKER_01: 32:25

Where I chased that that uh that that squirrel up the tree. Um so one of the one of the recent evaluation forms that I had was uh and I went and looked at, you know, because when they feel the evaluation form, they could put their email and their title and all stuff. It was the owner of the company who said this. And uh and you sat you you sat in my day class. So so you you know exactly what what we teach, right? Yeah. And so the guy said his comment was, and I'm paraphrasing this because I I obviously did not commit it to memory, but he said that that was way too much information for an installer. Um, that was more of a design course, he didn't see the value for their installers. And you just said it. You just said it. The good technicians, the technicians are gonna be around, listen up, managers listening. The good technicians who are gonna be around, who are gonna answer yes to help you, they're the ones who want knowledge. They want to learn why why do these pairs have to be twisted? Why does it affect if I untwist it too much? Why does it affect if I lay it on top of the the fluorescent light ballast? Right? So I'll get off my soapbox. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 33:30

Okay. No, I'm I'm so right there with you. And that's why I actually got to where I am, because I was always, why, why, why, why? My boss was like, just go do it, just go do it. You know, and he knew I would.

SPEAKER_01: 33:47

You have to do that. Now you said you did a project management role. So let me ask you this when you were project manager or from your project manager perspective, um, does having a Bixie ATF available to you making a differentiator to win more business?

SPEAKER_02: 34:07

Definitely, because um if you're familiar with bidding processes today, there are a lot of specifications that have to be followed. And often with projects and absolutely on larger projects, an RCDD has to uh stamp those drawings. So having the bixie understanding of how installation is supposed to be done according to the RCD that designed the project, it it's it's priceless, literally. My first job that I had to do, an extremely large job for that was Bixie certified. Um, I had to have multiple technicians. We all had to be on the same page doing the same thing every day because we didn't have any time to to do reworks. We had the next one.

SPEAKER_01: 35:11

We had a conversation um to talk to the person who's listening to this show right now, who's on the fence building their they're on the fence about building an ATF, right? They want to build it, right? Um, but they haven't done it yet, right? Looking back, because you built two of them, looking back, what are let's say the top three mistakes that you made, or maybe you did that you underestimated in building your ATFs?

SPEAKER_02: 35:35

Uh the time that it was gonna take, even with all the support that I had with the IBEW, it still took me over a year to get my ATF accomplished. Uh so time, the first thing. And the second thing was probably hmm, the extent that Bixie goes to to make sure that it is absolutely perfect. Uh, I had to send in all kinds of things. They would return it, I would have to change things, send it back in again. Uh, and that's because Bixie wants their turning their training to be universal across the board, wherever you go.

SPEAKER_01: 36:21

I call it the McDonald's effect, right? You you you you want yeah, yeah, it's it's a McDonald's effect, right? Because when you buy when you buy a hamburger McDonald's in Tampa, Florida, and you buy another one in Salt Lake City or another one in in Seattle, Washington, you want them to all taste the same.

SPEAKER_02: 36:37

Absolutely. So it's the same thing. We want to have the same product, and that's why Bixie is manufacturing uh independent. So I had to have multiple manufacturers on my wall field and my racks and and everything. They want a universal uh training area that isn't impacted by manufacturers.

SPEAKER_01: 37:07

What red flags or pitfalls did you maybe come across in building your ATFs?

SPEAKER_02: 37:12

I had to change something, and it was the simplest thing, but it was hard because of what it was. Literally, it was your plywood needs to be six inches off of it.

SPEAKER_01: 37:27

It was not about the T DMM because it says it in the TDM.

SPEAKER_02: 37:33

I know, but it had been a minute. So I had my whole wall field done, all eight workstations. And when I went to my T3 class, um, or not to my T350 class, I noticed that that I when I saw it, I remembered that my plywood had to be so that was a giant change. It was everything was painted, everything was mounted, I had to take everything off, raise everything, retoggle everything. So it could be the simplest of things. So that was the simplest of things. The hardest of things that that I ran into was materials, getting the materials that are required, the independently manufactured materials. So if I was putting all one uh manufacturer on the wall, uh, it would be pretty easy to do. They'd be happy to send me a box with everything in it, but that's not Bixie. Bixie wants different things.

SPEAKER_01: 38:43

You can you can't because you know you have to have 66 blocks, you have to have 110 blocks, you have to have big blocks. Right, and I manufacturer that makes all of those. So, and and we mentioned we we talked about this earlier. You know, again, one of the ways that we helped get that price down was we we took an inventory we had in the warehouse, we used that first, and then because remember, I again I used to work for contracts when we had our lab, but whatever we didn't have, I reached so for example, I would reach out to say, like for the for the like the Bix Blocks. I reached out to to Belt and said, Look, we're building a Bixie lab. Um, yeah, we don't normally use your products, but we need to use it for this Bixie lab. Would you be interested in donating it? And sure, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they'll because it gives them exposure. So absolutely we'll do it.

SPEAKER_02: 39:30

Also, also, Gray Bar Electric has a um list of materials that are have aged out, shall we say, and they put that out to JATC, to contractors, and so forth to be able to, and you can pick things off of them, they may come from all over the place, and you'll have to pick. For the shipping, but the materials themselves are fantastic. So pitch to Gray Bar, they have been a fantastic partner.

SPEAKER_01: 40:08

Yeah, Gray Bar is a great company. Um they they they they they absolutely support the industry, but also so do a lot of the small independent distributors, distributors as well, too. Um you know, like Wise and Advantage and them too. They they will absolutely do the same thing for you. They just oh it's it's it's funny, it it's all about relationship in this industry. Yeah, or one of us mentioned, you know, there's two different lab sizes, the the lab size for the eight students, the lab size for the sixteen students. Um again, thinking this you who the we're talking to the person listening right now who's thinking about building it. Thinking about budget and maybe maybe even limited space, which would you recommend they build first? The the eight or the sixteen or or just go straight to the sixteen?

SPEAKER_02: 40:54

If you are going to have the participation for the 16, it's just like doing a job, I would say. It would cost twice as much to do it twice. So if you're doing it once, it is for labor, it's not going to double the cost for labor. It is gonna double the cost for materials, but as we know, labor is a big part of that cost. So I would recommend doing the the ATF for the 16 if you have um if you have the need for that.

SPEAKER_01: 41:32

A lot uh even even if you don't, like you know, like it's like you said, right? It's better to have it not need it. Than need it, not need it.

SPEAKER_02: 41:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 41:41

So yeah, yeah, I I I feel the same way. If you if you have the space, that'd be the that would be for me the determining factors, the space. Right. If you have the space for build this the lab for the 16 that way. You you can always with a lab with 16, you can always teach eight. But if you have a lab built for eight, you can't teach sixteen. I'm I'm trying to look real quick and see how big the actual I'll put the uh I'll put the link in my in the description for the yeah, because you they you can do this, right?

SPEAKER_02: 42:12

But um I think it has the square footage in in this uh I'll put the link, I'll put the link below.

SPEAKER_01: 42:17

So yeah, they got they got they've got requirements for split and requirements for split. Yeah, that's that's all of these here. I'll put that link below. So that somebody's interested in building an ATF, they can go to the show notes and click on the link and pull that book because I got that. I I've seen that PDF before. I've downloaded it because the the the company is building the thing. There you go. Provider services at bixie.org. That's how you get started. That's exactly right. Perfect. Well, Teresa, we had a great conversation. I appreciate you coming on, and like I said, this is a show I've been wanting to do for a while, and I've been wanting to get you to come back on for a while because you know I just think you're one of I think you're one of the industry icons.

SPEAKER_02: 42:51

I appreciate that. That sounds terrible, it makes me feel old, but I still appreciate it. It's all good. Yeah.