You're Wrong About

The O.J. Simpson Trial: The Arraignmaker

January 25, 2021 Michael Hobbes & Sarah Marshall
You're Wrong About
The O.J. Simpson Trial: The Arraignmaker
You're Wrong About
The O.J. Simpson Trial: The Arraignmaker
Jan 25, 2021
Michael Hobbes & Sarah Marshall

This week, we put on our suits and head back to the courtroom. O.J. Simpson pleads not guilty, Marcia Clark finishes questioning Kato Kaelin and Bob Shapiro continues to furrow his brow. Digressions include "Speed," the Kuleshov effect and the intentional boringness of American law. In the final ten minutes, we talk briefly about the crime scene and Marcia’s reaction to it.

If you'd like to see the arraignment footage for yourself it's here.

Support us:
Subscribe on Patreon
Donate on Paypal
Buy cute merch

Where else to find us:
Sarah's other show, Why Are Dads
Mike's other show, Maintenance Phase

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Show Notes Transcript

This week, we put on our suits and head back to the courtroom. O.J. Simpson pleads not guilty, Marcia Clark finishes questioning Kato Kaelin and Bob Shapiro continues to furrow his brow. Digressions include "Speed," the Kuleshov effect and the intentional boringness of American law. In the final ten minutes, we talk briefly about the crime scene and Marcia’s reaction to it.

If you'd like to see the arraignment footage for yourself it's here.

Support us:
Subscribe on Patreon
Donate on Paypal
Buy cute merch

Where else to find us:
Sarah's other show, Why Are Dads
Mike's other show, Maintenance Phase

Support the show (

Sarah Marshall: (00:00)

I want us to spend time with all of the people in this story in a way that, you know, allows us to cultivate a sense of connection with them and to see the parts of their lives that are recognizable to us and also just to recognize when they're being dicks. 

(song): (00:16)

[music plays]

Michael Hobbes: (00:30)

Welcome to You're Wrong About, the podcast that investigates history without impaneling a grand jury. 

Sarah Marshall: (00:35)

Not yet. 

Michael Hobbes: (00:36)

I forgot what a grand jury is, so I was just saying that.

Sarah Marshall: (00:40)

It's like a regular jury but they're all wearing ball gowns. 

Michael Hobbes: (00:46)

I'm Michael Hobbes. I am a reporter for the Huffington Post.

Sarah Marshall: (00:48)

I'm Sarah Marshall. I'm working on a book about the satanic panic. 

Michael Hobbes: (00:52)

And if you'd like to support the show, we're on Patreon at and PayPal and we sell cute mugs and t-shirts and stuff. And if you don't want to do that, that's also chill. Just settle in. 

Sarah Marshall: (01:04)

Or bounce after five minutes. But we're glad you're here right now. 

Michael Hobbes: (01:08)

And today we're talking about, I think Marsha Clark. 

Sarah Marshall: (01:12)

Yeah! You're right. I think this episode is also going to be maybe kind of a catch-up episode and possibly a better title is The Arraignment because we're going to do O. J.'s arraignment on June 20th and the days leading up to it, basically the weekend after the Bronco chase from a few different perspectives, and we're going to bring our chorus in. 

Michael Hobbes: (01:33)

Arraignment is one of those words like grand jury that I see all the time but it's not clear to me that I know what it is.

Sarah Marshall: (01:37)

It's the part in Law & Order where we see the defendant with their lawyer and the prosecutor come in and Jill Hennessy is wearing a scrunchie. And it's where you stand in front of a judge as a defendant, the charges against you will be read aloud and you plead guilty or not guilty. 

Michael Hobbes: (02:02)

So it's like, it's like a court hearing. 

Sarah Marshall: (02:03)

Yeah. You you're standing in front of a judge in a courtroom. 

Michael Hobbes: (02:06)

Take me with you. Arraign me for doing a little arraign maker. 

Sarah Marshall: (02:09)

You're in arraign man. 

Michael Hobbes: (02:10)

Yeah. So where are we starting? 

Sarah Marshall: (02:14)

So we haven't really zoomed out in a while. We've been close by with Paula for a couple of episodes now. And so I want to return to one of my favorite voices in the chorus of the series, which is... 

Michael Hobbes: (02:26)

Oh, what's his face? Griffin Dunne. 

Sarah Marshall: (02:28)

Yeah. Dominick Dunne. 

Michael Hobbes: (02:29)


Sarah Marshall: (02:30)

Gryffendor Dunne. Yes. Raven Claude Didion. So in Dominick Dunne's coverage of O. J. Simpson, we have a crossover event with one of our previous topics. This is from a Vanity Fair column called L.A. in the age of O. J. And he writes, "in the midst of all this, the Prince of Wales came to town. What a flat tire, that trip was. The beleaguered Prince was simply not a hot ticket. There was a great deal of behind the scenes telephoning to beg people to show at certain of the charity events, the stars did not turn out. There was no hostility toward the Prince, merely indifference."

Michael Hobbes: (03:06)

For a second I was afraid you were going to bring it back to the Stanford prison experiment. Everybody got locked in a basement. 

Sarah Marshall: (03:12)

And Philip Lombardo was watching the crowd the day of the Bronco chase and taking notes. So yeah, I guess it makes me happy or something that into this story, we can imagine one of the other people we've recently talked about just going through, you know, peering out his limo, going "hiiiiiii!" 

Michael Hobbes: (03:33)

So where are we in time for this arraignment? Is this like right after the Bronco chase or like months after the Bronco chase? 

Sarah Marshall: (03:39)

This is right after, this is the Monday after. The Bronco chase is June 17th on a Friday. And then we have basically the weekend for the lawyers to prep and people to sort of catch their breath a little. And then the arraignment is on Monday. 

Michael Hobbes: (03:53)

So does that mean that all of the evidence that they're going to present at the trial they've already gathered like, the investigation period is over? 

Sarah Marshall: (04:00)

No, not after 72 hours. There's a lot to do. And you know, there's also the gathering of the evidence and then the testing of the evidence.

Michael Hobbes: (04:10)

Oh right. 

Sarah Marshall: (04:10)

We're at the beginning of trial prep. 

Michael Hobbes: (04:13)

Okay. So they happen on parallel tracks, that they're putting O. J. on trial and they're still building the case against him behind the scenes. 

Sarah Marshall: (04:20)


Michael Hobbes: (04:20)


Sarah Marshall: (04:20)

And I know that we've taken over a year to talk about it, but it has only been a week since the murders.

Michael Hobbes: (04:27)


Sarah Marshall: (04:27)

There's just been so little time for an investigation to play out. 

Michael Hobbes: (04:30)

Yes, we're doing a Christopher Nolan movie. 

Sarah Marshall: (04:32)

So Marcia, as we've talked about before is questioning Kato before the grand jury, when O.J. makes a break for it. And the Bronco "chase" begins and she liked the rest of America ends up watching it on TV. She does not make a secret of her contempt for the defendant. And so in the following chapter, she tells us, "I can never bring myself to call him O.J. and it galled me when everyone else did. No one referred to Charles Manson as Chuck, yet even the people on my own team would talk about, 'O.J. this and O.J. that,' I had zero tolerance for it." And she actually has like a swear jar, but it's an O.J. jar and if someone on the team calls him O.J. they have to put a quarter in. 

Michael Hobbes: (05:19)


Sarah Marshall: (05:20)

And she says, "I didn't hate Orenthal James Simpson. At least I don't like to think of it that way. Hate is not an emotion that a prosecutor can afford. Hate clouds your thinking and distorts your priorities. You can't let it get personal. Having gone on record with that noble sentiment. Let me say that I reserve the right to consider Orenthal Simpson an unregenerate, low life scum." 

Michael Hobbes: (05:41)

Okay. So she clearly did hate him. 

Sarah Marshall: (05:43)


Michael Hobbes: (05:43)

But that's fine. 

Sarah Marshall: (05:44)

And this is one of the areas where, you know, where I'm torn on Marcia, where like, you know, I think when you feel a sense of attachment to a historical figure, you can love part of them without loving every part of them. And I think Marcia really has a prosecutor's heart. Like, she believes in a world where there are bad guys and where you have to find the bad guys and put them away. 

Michael Hobbes: (06:09)

This is 1994. This is the year that we passed the crime bill. I mean, this is like the acceleration of mass incarceration like, it's all happening in this story. 

Sarah Marshall: (06:17)


Michael Hobbes: (06:17)

Even as this story does not illustrate it in a more, kind of, direct way. 

Sarah Marshall: (06:21)

Right. Okay. So I want to read to you four accounts of O.J. Simpson's arraignment, and then we're going to watch footage of it. And I'm going to review the accounts in order of most to least sympathetic. 

Michael Hobbes: (06:36)


Sarah Marshall: (06:37)

So here's the account of the arraignment by Lawrence Schiller, who wrote the book from which we get all of the Robert Kardashians parts and The People versus O.J. Simpson. "The courtroom was crowded on Monday, the 20th of June. 'Orenthal James Simpson, is that your name?' The athletes seem to sleep on his feet, rocking a little drugged. His skin was drawn almost skeletally over his face. Painfully tied around sunken eyes. Simpson closed his eyes for a second, rocking forward as if he might fall. He almost missed his cue. 'Yes,' he finally said. 'Mr. Simpson, do you understand the charge as I read them to you?' 'Yes.' Shapiro placed his right hand on Simpsons left shoulder, squeezing and directing. The athletes seemed to sink into himself but when Shapiro squeezed his shoulder, he surfaced long enough to do what was required." What do you think of the language used to describe him in this? 

Michael Hobbes: (07:31)

What, that his eyes are sunken and his skin is stretched tight. I guess you could say that. It's trying to sort of give a little bit of sympathy to him, but I also don't understand like the context of this whole book. If this whole book is like, O.J. did it book or like, O.J. didn't do it book. Here's how sad he looked. 

Sarah Marshall: (07:46)

Well, it's a book written with the cooperation of the defense team. So it is the defense team perspective book. 

Michael Hobbes: (07:52)

So they probably are putting that in there to give us a little bit of "look how tough this is for O.J." stuff. 

Sarah Marshall: (07:57)

Well, let's compare it. We are returning to Jeffrey Toobin's, the run of his life. 

Michael Hobbes: (08:04)

Ooooh... no comment. 

Sarah Marshall: (08:05)

No comment. 

Michael Hobbes: (08:06)

I have-- 

Sarah Marshall: (08:07)

Those are the exact words that come to mind for me also. 

Michael Hobbes: (08:09)

A series of jokes just ran through my head and I'm not going to verbalize them.

Sarah Marshall: (08:12)

Yeah, don't worry. You'll have other chances. 

Michael Hobbes: (08:15)

Yes, thank you.

Sarah Marshall: (08:15)

"Simpson was arraigned in municipal court on the following Monday, June 20th. He was physically transformed from any O.J. Simpson the public had seen before. Looking dazed and bewildered, he staggered from the holding pen to the defendant's table before Judge Patti Jo McKay. He wore a black suit and white shirt, but he was denied a tie, belt, and shoelaces. Even apparently collar stays for fear that he might turn them into instruments of suicide. Head cocked to one side, Simpson stared vacantly around the courtroom. Asked his name, he appeared confused and Shapiro had to prompt his answer. Asked his plea, Simpson muttered quietly, "not guilty." The proceeding was over in moments and in the only real business transacted Judge McKay scheduled the preliminary hearing for 10 days hence, June 30th. 

Michael Hobbes: (09:02)

I mean, this whole thing is such an illustration of the fact that quote unquote, objective journalism does not exist. Because either one of these accounts, if you read them independently, you would be like, "oh, well, that's just a factual description of what's going on." But you can see in the juxtaposition how much value judgment is going into each one of these quote unquote factual descriptions. Is O.J. gaunt? Is O.J. sort of, you know, "skin stretched tight over sunken eyes" versus "he stared out vacantly." Like, one of those implies that he's the victim of something and the other one implies that like, he's just completely out of it and maybe he's not very smart. Like, one gives you sympathy for him and one doesn't. 

Sarah Marshall: (09:41)

Yeah, totally. And like, in one he's like, maybe drugged, he's staggering. Like, none of the language here implies that he's experiencing grief, which I think Schiller's writing does. 

Michael Hobbes: (09:51)


Sarah Marshall: (09:52)

And now, for least sympathetic Marcia. 

Michael Hobbes: (09:55)

Oh, I hope she says O.J. should smile more. That would be perfect. 

Sarah Marshall: (09:59)

"The next morning, Dave and I had taken our places at the council table when the bailiffs brought Simpson out of the holding cell. Finally, the prisoner entered the court. I raised my head and got my glimpse of O.J. Simpson. He looked like he'd been sleeping on the street. He wore a dark suit that seemed to sack on his body. In accordance with rules of the suicide watch, he wore no belt or shoelaces. His features were slack, his manner distracted. I suspected he was tranqed. He looked half angry, half scared, utterly deflated. In the coming months I would watch and alert, carefully coached O.J. Simpson put on an affable, confident face for the jury and the world to see. And I would remember the way he looked at this first morning. A common thug." 

Michael Hobbes: (10:41)

Ohhh Marcia, that's bad. 

Sarah Marshall: (10:41)

Marcia, that's racist. And if you published this book in 2021, the year we are now in, I guess, thousands of people would be like, "what the fuck are you talking about, Marcia? Like, what are you trying to say to me?" 

Michael Hobbes: (10:57)

Can you be more specific, Marcia? What kind of thug do you mean? What's that? 

Sarah Marshall: (11:01)

Marcia calling O.J. Simpson "a common thug" feels to me like, she's a career prosecutor, she's been doing this for, I think 15 years at this point. I don't know if it's possible to come up and spend your career as a lawyer in a prosecutor's office without absorbing and reenacting that culture. 

Michael Hobbes: (11:23)


Sarah Marshall: (11:24)

And one of the cultures there is the mass incarceration of men of color. And so in that moment, it feels to me, potentially, like Marcia is looking at, you know, this now defendant and saying like, your celebrity has been taken from you, your power's being taken from you. I know what you are. You're one of the kind of people that I send to prison for a living.

Michael Hobbes: (11:47)


Sarah Marshall: (11:47)

You know? And I love the moments when I'm like, on the same page as Marcia Clark, because she's the one who's standing up and cutting through the noise and being like, "this woman was nearly beheaded. Can we talk about Nicole?" And I'm like, "yes, let's talk about Nicole." And like, we can do that without playing a role in that ongoing legal charade, you know, the facts are strong enough without that. 

Michael Hobbes: (12:12)

Yeah. And without being like, with all of the celebrity and everything else stripped away, he's just a black dude, which is right there on the page like, that's basically what she's saying. 

Sarah Marshall: (12:21)


Michael Hobbes: (12:21)

This also demonstrates how much, sort of, projection we do into the demeanor of other people. I mean, it's a middle-aged man in a suit. He looks tired, but ultimately most people's faces don't actually say that much. Like, there's a lot of interpretation going on in people's "demeanor." 

Sarah Marshall: (12:41)

Do you know about, I'm going to pronounce this wrong, but the [inaudible] effect? 

Michael Hobbes: (12:45)

Oh yeah. 

Sarah Marshall: (12:46)

Can you describe that? 

Michael Hobbes: (12:47)

My understanding of it is that it's the juxtaposition between, I guess, sort of a closeup of somebody's face on film. And then what they're looking at will give you a particular impression of how they feel. So if you look at somebody say, looking out of a window and then you cut to a car accident outside, and then you cut back to that person, you'll say, Oh, that person looks sad because they're looking at a car accident. But then if what you cut to outside the window is like two kids playing basketball. Then you cut back to that person. It's like, oh, he's thinking wistfully and nostalgically about his own past, like he's thinking of this happily. It's exactly the same image, but you're projecting whatever context you have around that image onto what their face is. 

Sarah Marshall: (13:29)

And it works, I think, especially if you have a neutral expression. 

Michael Hobbes: (13:32)


Sarah Marshall: (13:32)

So basically if you go through life with a neutral expression, people are just going to accuse you of all kinds of weird shit. 

Michael Hobbes: (13:39)

This is you going back to your own thing of that you think you have an inquisitive face. 

Sarah Marshall: (13:42)

I just have a lot of thoughts and feelings about my eyebrows, because I think that like, they are actually a little bit uneven and inquisitive, but also I have like deep set eyes, which I think can look villainous, I just think about my eyebrows all the time, Mike, I just get up and I stress about my eyebrows.

Michael Hobbes: (14:01)

Sarah's vacant look, she looked tranqed.

Sarah Marshall: (14:04)

I do. Yeah. But right. But I, I do think a lot about how this plays out of trial because the thing is, it is rare in the scheme of things for a defendant to take the stand in their own defense and to offer therefore the jury, any kind of a sense of who they are when they're not being walked back and forth in handcuffs. 

Michael Hobbes: (14:25)


Sarah Marshall: (14:25)

And if you have someone who is being accused of something, and if all you have is footage of them with a neutral expression, then just like, yeah, you're going to project whatever onto that. And you're going to be potentially very intensely prompted by the way the media is presenting the story. In fact, you probably will be.

Michael Hobbes: (14:45)

Right. And if somebody is testifying against the defendant and they're, say, looking down at their notes, are they doing that out of shame? Are they doing that out of anger? Are they doing it out of remorse for their crime? I mean, you can project almost anything onto that. 

Sarah Marshall: (14:57)

Are they looking neutral? And if they look neutral, then are you then able to say like, "oh my God, like, you're so heartless. You don't even feel anything about this crime you've committed." Even though they're probably being told by their lawyer, like, "just have as little expression as possible because you having no expression is bad, but like having some kind of readable expression would probably be worse," because there's no correct way to look when someone is testifying against you. 

Michael Hobbes: (15:23)

Like so much of this is really just a way for people to reenact their preexisting beliefs about the case. Like, if they think you're guilty, they're going to project all of that assumed guilt onto you. And then use that as evidence. 

Sarah Marshall: (15:33)


Michael Hobbes: (15:33)

Right? Like, "he was looking down at his notes during the testimony" and it's like, that's not actually evidence. That's literally just you projecting what you already think onto that person. 

Sarah Marshall: (15:43)


Michael Hobbes: (15:43)

I mean, this is basically Nancy Grace's entire career. 

Sarah Marshall: (15:45)

Yeah. This is like the uncomfortable moist area we're getting into is the Clark-Grace part of the spectrum. Okay. I'll read more of Marcia's. This goes on. "Shapiro stood close to him, patting his shoulder, whispering in his ear, fawning. Seemed to me, he wanted to be close enough to his client to make sure he was in the photos. The municipal judge, Patti Jo McKay took the bench and we all sat down. 'Orenthal James Simpson, is that your true name, sir?' I asked him. He wouldn't meet my eyes. He mumbled, 'yes.' 'To the charges stated in counts one and two of the complaint, how do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?' Simpson's reply of not guilty was jumbled. In fact, it was barely coherent. Then, Bob Shapiro did something that shocked me. Shapiro besieged the court to allow Mr. Simpson to redo his plea. You could have scraped me off the floor. Did he think this was a goddamn soundstage. 'Simpson plea, take two.' I watched helplessly as the judge allowed Shapiro's outrageous request. This time Simpson, drawing on the thespian skills, doubtless honed by his work in the towering Inferno, reached down inside of himself and hit the mark. He restated his plea of not guilty. Enraged, I watched as Shapiro, his comically heavy eyebrows, knitted in a show of concern, patted his client on the shoulder, congratulating him on his improved performance." 

Michael Hobbes: (17:09)

That's fucking cold shit to bring towering Inferno into this. 

Sarah Marshall: (17:13)

I think so too.

Michael Hobbes: (17:15)

Not all of us have made every great choice in Hollywood, alright? 

Sarah Marshall: (17:18)

And this is all with the massive chunk of salt, the salt lick, if you will, but like, I bet it is, like, really unprecedented and weird for a lawyer to be like, "my client requests to do over." 

Michael Hobbes: (17:29)


Sarah Marshall: (17:30)

So yeah, that makes sense to me as a potential breach of protocol. But I also, I feel like Marcia is just like, taking the defense team maneuvering very personally in this anecdote and you know, it just, she said that prosecuting isn't personal. I read that part. 

Michael Hobbes: (17:48)

I mean, it does a little bit like, just tone it down, Marcia. It's fine. 

Sarah Marshall: (17:51)

I understand, especially since she's writing this book in retrospect and like, spoiler alert, she did lose this one, but it's like, every story becomes one where like, O.J. Simpson is doing something out of line. 

Michael Hobbes: (18:03)


Sarah Marshall: (18:03)

But like, I don't know. He just has to stand there for this one. Like, I don't know if he's capable of really like, screwing with your whole thing that much right now. 

Michael Hobbes: (18:13)

Right. She's punching it up a little bit. You know, we all do this. 

Sarah Marshall: (18:16)

So do you want to finally watch this fabled footage, which at the end of the day is obviously incredibly boring? 

Michael Hobbes: (18:22)

Yeah. It sounds like it's going to be like 30 seconds long as well. 

Sarah Marshall: (18:24)

It's going to be like, two minutes. Yeah. 

Michael Hobbes: (18:27)

Cause then I can project my own bullshit onto it. It's gonna be great. 

Sarah Marshall: (18:30)

Exactly. That's what I want. 

Michael Hobbes: (18:32)

Alright. Three, two, one, go. 

(clip): (18:35)

Are you ready to go forward with the arraignment at this time? Yes we are, your honor. Alright. You [inaudible] way statement of constitutional rights. Yes we do, your honor. Alright. People. Thank you, your honor. Mr. Orenthal Simpson, is that your true name? Please speak up so you may be heard. Uh, yes. [inaudible] May we start all over again? Yes. Orenthal James Simpson, is that your true name, sir? Yes. You're charged with this complaint in case number BA 097211, that on or about June 12, 1994 in the County of Los Angeles. You committed a crime of murder in violation of penal code section 187A. Mr. Simpson, do you understand the charges as I read them to you? Yes. And have you discussed those charges with your lawyer? Yes. At this time, do you wish to enter a plea guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. 

Sarah Marshall: (19:31)

Yeah. What do you think of that? How would you describe it? 

Michael Hobbes: (19:34)

So boring! Oh my God. 

Sarah Marshall: (19:36)

I mean, it seems so exciting and all of those depictions. 

Michael Hobbes: (19:39)

I know. 

Sarah Marshall: (19:39)

What do you think of how the defendant looks? 

Michael Hobbes: (19:41)

I mean, he looks like, he looks tired, dude. All of the things about, sort of, his vacant eyes and potentially tranquilized and he seems kind of confused and a little bit disoriented and he's not clear on sort of when he has to speak versus what is just a formality and he just has to stand there. That stuff all seems true. He seems kind of confused. 

Sarah Marshall: (20:02)

As I would be if I were being arraigned. 

Michael Hobbes: (20:04)

Also, isn't Marcia lying? Didn't Marcia say in her book that he said not guilty. And then they had to do the not guilty part again? 

Sarah Marshall: (20:11)

Yes, that is true. 

Michael Hobbes: (20:12)

It's a weird thing to lie about, Marcia. He didn't have to say his plea twice. He had to say his name twice. 

Sarah Marshall: (20:17)

There's a disparity here. She says his name and says, is that your true name, sir? And she writes, "he wouldn't meet my eyes. He mumbled, yes." Which does happen. But he kind of goes yes. And like kind of a questioning tone slightly. And it appears that he doesn't fully, that like, maybe he didn't fully hear the question that he's kind of blindly answering in the affirmative to, in which case he would want to do it over. 

Michael Hobbes: (20:40)

Yeah. It's weird that she mentions that as like somehow meaningful. 

Sarah Marshall: (20:43)

It seems like they have kind of janky microphones. Like, she's also talking pretty fast. 

Michael Hobbes: (20:48)

It just seems like he doesn't know exactly how this procedure works. And he's a little confused as to sort of what he's supposed to respond to and whatnot, which is, I don't know, it doesn't seem to be evidence of guilt or innocence. It's just like a thing that happens to people. 

Sarah Marshall: (21:00)

Or of entitlement, or of his team being, you know, a bunch of lowlifes. Like, it's funny because all of these people have made and will continue to make very bad choices and to do morally reprehensible or at least questionable things. But like, this doesn't appear to be one of those moments. So like you don't have to make it that. 

Michael Hobbes: (21:20)

It's a bold move, man, to a punch up an anecdote that is readily available in footage. 

Sarah Marshall: (21:25)

Well, but that's the thing. This book comes out and I think 1997. And so it was, but like, not the way that it is now. The same way Paula talks about having this like, unscripted kiss with Michael Bolton and then watched the video. And you're like, you know, I would imagine too, the way these books are constructed, like, they're going to tell the story of the arraignment where nothing really happened except for what was supposed to happen. And I can imagine if you're trying to write a best seller, you would be like, "Marcia, do you have any grievances about that? Oh, you do great." 

Michael Hobbes: (21:57)

Yeah, seriously, yeah. It just ultimately isn't that meaningful of an event in the course of the next nine months. 

Sarah Marshall: (22:03)

Which is why we've talked about it for 20 minutes. Okay. Let's talk about Marcia's press conference. 

Michael Hobbes: (22:10)

Ooh. Which we heard about from Paula. And Paula didn't like it. 

Sarah Marshall: (22:13)

Yes. What did Paula dislike? What do you recall? 

Michael Hobbes: (22:16)

Wasn't this conference where Marcia basically just said, like, "we have all the evidence against O.J. and this was premeditated and he's super duper did it. And that's our conference. That's what we're telling you today." 

Sarah Marshall: (22:25)

Yes. She's like, "this man, who had the gall to stand in front of me looking tired, is clearly a premeditated murderer." Like, this is the moment at which we get a taste of what this whole process is going to be like, basically. So Suzanne Childs, who is the press strategist for the DA's office says, "there's going to be a lot of press." Marcia says, "that was the under fucking statement of the year." "The lobby was jammed wall-to-wall with bodies broadcast [inaudible] to muscle out the print scruffs. Photographers were dangling from the mezzanine. For a moment, I thought fright would get the best of me, that my voice might quaver. But then something remarkable happened as I drifted toward that sea of reporters and cameras, I was enveloped by a sense of calm. All my life, I felt sure that something would happen to me that would make my life bigger, more profound. As I walked toward the lectern, I felt I wasn't even moving under my own power. To say that I felt a sense of destiny might be overstating it. But I do remember thinking, 'this is it. You were meant to do this.'" And then she says, "it was premeditated murder. It was done with deliberation and premeditation. That is precisely what he is charged with because that is what we will prove." And someone asks, "are there plans to charge anyone else?" And she says, "Mr. Simpson is charged alone, because he is the sole murderer."

Michael Hobbes: (23:46)

Wow, she really went for it, she did the destiny thing. And then she just went up there with the like savage quotes. 

Sarah Marshall: (23:51)

Yeah. Destiny. Sole murder. 

Michael Hobbes: (23:53)


Sarah Marshall: (23:53)

And then she says immediately after, in her book, she writes, "I'd blown it. Man, had I blown it. What I had meant to say of course, was that Simpson was not the sole murderer, but the sole suspect. I realized my slip almost immediately. But by then I was fielding other questions and correcting my error would only call more attention to it. I was sure I'd take heat for not using the word suspect. As it turned out, I did get heat, but not for that. The word that Robert Shapiro almost instantly seized upon when reporters spoke to him later that day was not murderer, but sole. The DA's office was not investigating other suspects, he charged. In fact, this was completely untrue. The investigation was still wide open." 

Michael Hobbes: (24:31)

The thing is though, this is rich people, justice. I mean, this happens constantly with low-level crimes that prosecutors will punch it up and describe it like it's some sort of fucking Saw movie. And then what they actually charged the person with is like, a super chill misdemeanor. This is exactly the thing that O.J. has 55 lawyers, so of course there's going to be like, a whole legal process around this. And they'll be like, "oh, this tarnishes the entire endeavor of the case and how dare she, blah, blah, blah." This is the difference between rich people, justice and justice justice. 

Sarah Marshall: (25:01)

Well, I mean, I think rich people justice is justice and justice justice is just like, a stick with a string and a paperclip on it.

Michael Hobbes: (25:10)


Sarah Marshall: (25:10)

Because rich people justice is like, I mean, Bob Shapiro is not that great at his job, but he knows how to delegate to people who are and like, just you know, this is like that Nancy Grace kind of paradigm of being upset at someone having the gall to represent their client. 

Michael Hobbes: (25:27)


Sarah Marshall: (25:27)

This is a bad day for her, understandably. And all he's doing is catching her mistake because she said O.J.'s the sole murderer, which she knows is not the correct language, the murderer part. And then she is camouflaging the fact that actually the LAPD doesn't know that and is still investigating because it's been a week and is leaving open the possibility that he did have accomplices. She's saying that because she doesn't think he had accomplices, is what I think is happening. 

Michael Hobbes: (25:57)


Sarah Marshall: (25:57)

Yeah. I mean to agree with the rich people justice thing, like, I'm sure this is the kind of thing she's used to being able to do. 

Michael Hobbes: (26:04)

Exactly. It's only when rich people get tried that we notice this kind of stuff. 

Sarah Marshall: (26:07)

Right. So meanwhile, there's still a grand jury convened and she has to get more testimony out of Kato. That's still going on. 

Michael Hobbes: (26:18)

Oohhh. We're turning to our, A story of Kato and Marcia. 

Sarah Marshall: (26:21)

This is the episode where everyone just doesn't equip themselves all that well. 

Michael Hobbes: (26:28)

This is the screenplay by Noah Baumbach section of the O.J. Simpson trial.. People being unlikable 

Sarah Marshall: (26:34)

So Kato, meanwhile, also watches the Bronco chase on Friday night on TV. We are now reading from one of our old favorites, Kato Kaelin, the whole truth from the actual tapes by Mark Elliott. After footage of the Bronco chase and after that standoff finally ends, the book says, "what followed was a rebroadcast of Robert Kardashians earlier reading of O.J.'s suicide note, which Kato now saw for the first time. He watched grimly fascinated as Kardashians stood before a [inaudible] of microphones and read from O.J.'s handwritten note. To Kato, it sounded like a suicide note, but he wasn't going for it. He felt it was nothing more than a scam, that O.J. wasn't going to kill himself. None of it rang true. As for Paula, that was all wrong too. A lie. That wasn't how O.J. felt. He told Kato on numerous occasions that he didn't love Paula and would never marry her. So what was he talking about?" 

Michael Hobbes: (27:31)

What do you make of that? 

Sarah Marshall: (27:33)

I mean, yeah, that makes sense. We've talked before about how O.J. talks to Kato about Paula versus how O.J. talks to Paula about Paula. 

Michael Hobbes: (27:43)

Yeah. There is the sort of the question of like, well, which one is the real O.J.? Because he could easily be playing up his love for Paula to Paula, but he could be downplaying his love for Paula to Kato. 

Sarah Marshall: (27:54)


Michael Hobbes: (27:54)

Because this is what men do. 

Sarah Marshall: (27:55)

Well, I think he feels differently about her while in jail. 

Michael Hobbes: (28:00)


Sarah Marshall: (28:00)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I assume both are true, right? Because he is kind of in this orbit around Paula, like, he can't leave her alone. It's not to the extent anywhere near that it was with Nicole, just in terms of can't leave alone.

Michael Hobbes: (28:15)


Sarah Marshall: (28:15)

But like he does have some kind of a fixation on her, I think. Like, he can't let her get away. He does not like to let women get away. 

Michael Hobbes: (28:22)

Yeah. Cause that's about him. Not about her. 

Sarah Marshall: (28:24)

Yeah. So he needs her in his life. And you can like, say that you don't love someone and you know, probably not, but still feel very strongly that like, they can't leave you. 

Michael Hobbes: (28:35)


Sarah Marshall: (28:35)

So Monday after her press conference, Marcia returns to the grand jury to continue questioning Kato Kaelin. 

Michael Hobbes: (28:44)


Sarah Marshall: (28:44)

So basically Kato's testimony on Friday was incomplete because it was broken into by one of the greatest televised events of our time. 

Michael Hobbes: (28:51)


Sarah Marshall: (28:52)

And now they're picking it back up again. 

Michael Hobbes: (28:53)

So they basically, they were in the middle of this and then they all took a Bronco chase snow day. And then they're now reconvening to continue what they were doing last week. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:02)

I mean, I think we can all probably identify with this more strongly than we would like to, like, we are living inside of history and we have to go do the most boring aspects of our jobs. 

Michael Hobbes: (29:11)

Yeah, seriously. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:12)

So I'm going to send you some stuff for us to read. And I would like for me to be Q and for you to be A. 

Michael Hobbes: (29:18)

Oh, okay. I thought we were going in a different direction for a second. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:21)

Sarah Marshall admits she's cute. 

Michael Hobbes: (29:24)

God, it's an all caps. They're just shouting the whole time. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:28)

Yeah. It's hard on the eyes, these trial transcripts. So this is from Marcia's questioning of Kato and the grand jury. And we're going to start with her questioning him about Nicole's guest house. 

Michael Hobbes: (29:39)

Okay. And you're Marcia and I'm Kato. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:42)


Michael Hobbes: (29:42)


Sarah Marshall: (29:42)

Did that particular property have a spare room there? 

Michael Hobbes: (29:44)

Yes it did. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:45)

Can you explain what kind of spare room that was? 

Michael Hobbes: (29:47)

On Gretna Green, there was a guest house behind her house. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:50)

Were you interested for some reason in that guest house? 

Sarah Marshall: (29:52)


Sarah Marshall: (29:53)

Why was that? 

Michael Hobbes: (29:54)

Because I lived in Hermosa Beach and it was a long drive and I asked if that room was available to live in. 

Sarah Marshall: (29:58)

Did she respond? 

Michael Hobbes: (29:59)


Sarah Marshall: (29:59)

What did she tell you? 

Michael Hobbes: (30:00)

Ah, these are so boring. She said, "sure, you can live there." 

Sarah Marshall: (30:04)

Did you move in? 

Michael Hobbes: (30:04)

Yes I did. 

Sarah Marshall: (30:05)

During that period of time, did you become acquainted with the suspect Orenthal Simpson? 

Michael Hobbes: (30:09)


Sarah Marshall: (30:10)

Did you ever observe them to argue or fight? 

Michael Hobbes: (30:12)

I saw them close. And I saw maybe an argument. 

Sarah Marshall: (30:13)

Do you recall the nature of the argument or just that it was one? 

Michael Hobbes: (30:17)

That it was one. 

Sarah Marshall: (30:18)

So do you know what argument this refers to? 

Michael Hobbes: (30:20)

Yeah, this is one where he's like, banging in the door. 

Sarah Marshall: (30:22)


Michael Hobbes: (30:22)

And Kato has to fix the door because he's like, so violent. 

Sarah Marshall: (30:25)


Michael Hobbes: (30:25)

He was like, yeah, I guess I remember an argument, I suppose, argument ish, who can say.

Sarah Marshall: (30:30)

And like, what is the nature of your argument? Do you remember? No, not memorable. 

Michael Hobbes: (30:35)


Sarah Marshall: (30:35)

And we've talked previously, also, this is a quote unquote "fight" that is immortalized in a 911 call that Nicole made at the time and where you can just hear her ex-husband shouting at her and threatening her and actively breaking into her house. 

Michael Hobbes: (30:51)

The theme of this episode is people lying about verifiable footage. It's like, tapes are available.

Sarah Marshall: (30:56)

Yeah. Good point. Yeah. 

Michael Hobbes: (31:00)

It's like me writing a thing being like, everybody remembers that Dennis Hopper wins at the end of speed. Can we just be like, we can all see speed, Mike. We can go get speed. 

Sarah Marshall: (31:09)

And you're like, I know you've seen speed one time, but how well do you remember? Do you really remember it? Probably not. So now we're going to skip the next big block of text and go to the thing that starts, he told you he was going to see his daughter's recital. 

Michael Hobbes: (31:22)


Sarah Marshall: (31:22)

So about the day of the murders, Marcia asks, he told you he was going to see his daughter's recital at five o'clock. 

Michael Hobbes: (31:29)


Sarah Marshall: (31:30)

So at seven o'clock you asked him how it went? 

Michael Hobbes: (31:32)

Yes, I did. 

Sarah Marshall: (31:33)

And did he respond to you? 

Michael Hobbes: (31:34)


Sarah Marshall: (31:34)

What did he tell you? 

Michael Hobbes: (31:36)

He said she was wonderful. Beautiful. And he was proud of her.

Sarah Marshall: (31:38)

Tell me how he was behaving. Did he seem agitated? Upset? Nervous? 

Michael Hobbes: (31:42)

No, nonchalant. 

Sarah Marshall: (31:44)


Michael Hobbes: (31:45)


Sarah Marshall: (31:45)

Did he make any mention to you of Nicole at that time? 

Michael Hobbes: (31:47)


Sarah Marshall: (31:48)

What was that?

Michael Hobbes: (31:49)

In a good natured sort of way, he had mentioned who she was with girlfriends. I believe no names. I don't know who that he was wondering if they were going to age gracefully and what kind of outfits they were going to be wearing. 

Sarah Marshall: (31:59)

Can you recall what his words were? 

Michael Hobbes: (32:01)

It was about wearing tight fitting clothes in reference. Good nature. Can't you wear that? If the, when she's going to be older, joking, like wearing tight fitting clothes, good-naturedly like a grandma. 

Sarah Marshall: (32:09)

When you say good naturedly, that's what he was acting like? 

Michael Hobbes: (32:12)


Sarah Marshall: (32:13)

Was he laughing? 

Michael Hobbes: (32:14)

Yeah. Joking, laughing. 

Sarah Marshall: (32:16)

Kind of wondering were you going to wear these when you get older? 

Michael Hobbes: (32:18)


Sarah Marshall: (32:19)

Did he seem angry when he said that? 

Michael Hobbes: (32:21)


Sarah Marshall: (32:21)

So what do you think about that? 

Michael Hobbes: (32:23)

O.J. is just such a dick. What is he talking about? He's talking about the women, like wearing too tight dresses that like, I guess aren't going to fit when they're older or something? 

Sarah Marshall: (32:32)

I feel like Kato was saying, like, he was saying it good naturedly. And it's like, is it possible to say that good naturedly, Kato? Like, I don't know? 

Michael Hobbes: (32:41)

I love that just in every interaction, you're just like, God, this guy sucks.

Sarah Marshall: (32:45)


Michael Hobbes: (32:45)

Just once in your life, just like, have a normal, have a normal conversation that doesn't leave people just grimacing as they walk away from the kitchen. 

Sarah Marshall: (32:54)

It's funny that Marcia has chosen, like, the one moment in which O.J. did not have the wherewithal to be annoying in which to find him annoying. Like just wait until he says something. Don't worry. 

Michael Hobbes: (33:06)

Also I hate this thing in trial transcripts where they're like, did you ask him what time it was? Yes. And did he respond to you? Yes. And what was his response? It's like, just, ughhh, I mean, I guess I realize that everything has to be in this weird Q and A format, but like, this whole, all of this could just be done in just like letting people talk. I don't know. 

Sarah Marshall: (33:24)

I understand that there's, I'm sure like, various legal reasons for asking questions that way, that I just, I don't know, but I trust are there for a lot of good reasons, but also I think trials are intentionally made boring and incomprehensible because what's happening is often much less complicated than it seems if it's being presented to you in this highly ceremonial way, with outfits, with like, moments when you can or can't talk and you have to say certain words and all this stuff is happening in Latin. Like, I really, it seems built to alienate normal people. 

Michael Hobbes: (33:59)

Yeah. It is weird that we have this weird fiction of sort of 12 ordinary people who are assessing, you know, the facts of the case. But then we also have this weird stilted way of presenting facts and information that human beings do not encounter in any other context. It's like, if you're going to have this fiction, that ordinary people that we're being judged by a jury of our peers, why not make it so that like, our peers can actually understand and absorb the information. This seems like what they're doing is presenting it to professional judges, which is what they do in a lot of other countries. Then it would make sense. 

Sarah Marshall: (34:29)

Do you want to hear the Mark Elliot version of Kato's exchange with O.J. about Nicole's dresses from the actual tapes?

Michael Hobbes: (34:38)

Ooh, yeah. 

Sarah Marshall: (34:38)

"Kato asked O.J. how the recital went. A smile crossed O.J.'s face. 'Sidney was great,' he said, then the smile vanished, 'but Nicole was trying to play hardball with me.' He also complained to Kato about what Nicole had worn to the recital. It seemed to bother him a great deal, that she had on a tight, sexy black dress, which O.J. felt was totally inappropriate, not only for the dance recital, but under any social circumstances for a woman her age. She's 35.

Michael Hobbes: (35:06)

I know. 

Sarah Marshall: (35:06)

"'Kato,' he said, shaking his head back and forth and blowing air through his lips, 'what is she going to do? Wear dresses like that when she's a grandmother? Wear mini skirts for this kind of function? Can't she dress like a woman?'" And then that's when Kato is like, "can I take a jacuzzi?" Marcia is saying, did he seem agitated, upset, nervous. And Kato has said in a different context or will say in a different context, he was upset. 

Michael Hobbes: (35:32)


Sarah Marshall: (35:32)

So... ehh... 

Michael Hobbes: (35:34)


Sarah Marshall: (35:34)

And one of the things that Kato talks about in his quickie memoir is feeling genuinely scared of, you know, what O.J.'s people could potentially do to him because O.J.'s a powerful guy. 

Michael Hobbes: (35:49)


Sarah Marshall: (35:49)

And I understand you being genuinely scared of that, but also it's just, he's not describing what he will describe elsewhere. And he's not describing what we can understand from any other source to be the case on this evening. 

Michael Hobbes: (36:04)


Sarah Marshall: (36:04)

He's sort of the regular person in the story and his greatest flaw, I think, is his very unfortunately relatable need to equivocate and minimize the conflict around him until it's too late. 

Michael Hobbes: (36:20)


Sarah Marshall: (36:20)

Okay. And here's, we're going to read the final section, which starts with "what happened and anything unusual with her, during the phone call with Rachel?" 

Michael Hobbes: (36:26)

Oh. Okay. 

Sarah Marshall: (36:27)

So we will remember from a previous Kato episode that Kato is basically spending the evening on the phone with friends. First, his friend Tom, and then his friend, Rachel. And he is on the phone with Rachel when something strange happens. Marcia asks, what happened? Did anything unusual occur during the phone call to Rachel? 

Michael Hobbes: (36:47)

Yes. I was on the phone with Rachel and talking. I heard a noise on the back of my wall and it was, it was like a three thump noise. 

Sarah Marshall: (36:53)

Go ahead and just demonstrate for the jury.

Michael Hobbes: (36:56)

Witness complies. So I guess that means I have to like, thump here. Let's try this. That's three thumps. 

Sarah Marshall: (37:01)

Nice. Nice thumping. For the record, the witness has taken his fist and pounded three times on the table in front of him. 

Michael Hobbes: (37:07)

Or on the chest in front of him. 

Sarah Marshall: (37:08)

Yeah. Do you have an air conditioning unit that goes into the wall? 

Michael Hobbes: (37:11)


Sarah Marshall: (37:12)

Is it in like a window or an opening of the wall? 

Michael Hobbes: (37:15)


Sarah Marshall: (37:15)

That wall that the air conditioning unit is in, is there a small little path alongside the outside of that wall?

Michael Hobbes: (37:21)


Sarah Marshall: (37:21)

Next to that path, is there a fence? 

Michael Hobbes: (37:23)

Yes. There is a fence. 

Sarah Marshall: (37:24)

Is that the side border of the property of Rockingham, 360 Rockingham?

Michael Hobbes: (37:28)


Sarah Marshall: (37:28)

The area on the wall where you heard that thump, those thumps, was that near to the air conditioning unit? 

Michael Hobbes: (37:34)

Yes. Also the picture moved. 

Sarah Marshall: (37:36)

And the picture on that wall moved? 

Michael Hobbes: (37:37)

There's a picture over by the phone and it tilted and I thought there was an earthquake. 

Sarah Marshall: (37:41)

It tilted when you heard the thumps? 

Michael Hobbes: (37:42)


Sarah Marshall: (37:43)

So you thought it was an earthquake? 

Michael Hobbes: (37:44)

Yeah. I told Rachel on the phone, hey, did we have an earthquake? She said, no, I don't think so. 

Sarah Marshall: (37:49)

Don't tell me what she said. 

Michael Hobbes: (37:50)

Okay. I don't know what tone Kato used for the "okay." 

Sarah Marshall: (37:55)

Probably more polite. 

Michael Hobbes: (37:57)

I don't know why Marcia had to go there, but okay. 

Sarah Marshall: (37:58)

It's hearsay. 

Michael Hobbes: (37:59)


Sarah Marshall: (37:59)

You got to show these Kato's that you don't, you don't take kindly to their bowl. 

Michael Hobbes: (38:04)

God, that was so boring. Jesus fucking Christ. Is there a picture? Yes. Did it move? Yes. Was it related to the thumps? Yes. It's like, all right guys, obviously something hit the wall and the picture moved. 

Sarah Marshall: (38:15)

Yeah, like, does it have to be that boring? Like, lawyers, why is it so boring to be you? And later on at the civil trial, he will say that it sounded like the impact of a human body, but he doesn't say that here. 

Michael Hobbes: (38:28)


Sarah Marshall: (38:29)

So the theory based on that testimony is that this is O.J., like, hoisting himself up over the fence and jumping back into his property so that he can make a covert entrance sneak back into his house and then open the door to greet the limo driver and be like, "hello, I was napping."

Michael Hobbes: (38:46)


Sarah Marshall: (38:46)

What do you think about that? What do you think of our friend Kato? 

Michael Hobbes: (38:49)

It just seems like from the account in his book, there's a very consistent story of O.J. acting very strange this night that I don't think is like, coming through in these trial transcripts at all. 

Sarah Marshall: (38:58)

No, it's not. 

Michael Hobbes: (38:59)

Despite my excellent performance. 

Sarah Marshall: (39:01)

Yeah, no, you were great. It was not the fault of the actor. 

Michael Hobbes: (39:04)

Thank you. You know what. 

Sarah Marshall: (39:06)

Yeah. And I just think he's not expressing that because I think that he is equivocating his butt off right now because he doesn't want to be the first person to testify about the volatility of this man. 

Michael Hobbes: (39:22)


Sarah Marshall: (39:22)

Marcia says, "still Kato's testimony advanced us a few notches. He had admitted that Simpson was a jealous guy. Certainly jealous enough to manipulate his wife by buying her friends loyalty. And during my questioning about the night of the murder, Kato had substantially widened the time period during which Simpson was unaccounted for. Now the window is open between 9:45, when they'd returned from McDonald's, which was 15 minutes earlier than the estimate Kato had given the cops. At about 10:53, when Simpson responded to the limo driver. 

Michael Hobbes: (39:52)


Sarah Marshall: (39:52)

And then he also testifies about the bag that he sees lying on the grass. Do you remember this? 

Michael Hobbes: (39:59)

Oh, yeah! 

Sarah Marshall: (39:59)

Marcia says, "on the stand, however, he did reveal, for the first, time having seen a knapsack lying in the grass. Kato had rounded the corner of the main house, flashlight in hand. He checked out the area behind the garage and finding nothing started back toward the front yard and then open the gate to let the limo driver in. He noticed a golf bag on a bench by the front door. He went back to check the area behind his own room. And by the time he ventured out front again, Simpson was talking to the limo driver, but now Kaelin noticed something else on the grass near the driveway. It was like a bag he said in Katto speak."

Michael Hobbes: (40:32)

Marcia, let's not vilify people for using filler words. 

Sarah Marshall: (40:36)


Michael Hobbes: (40:36)

It's okay to use "like," Marcia. Marcia's been reading our iTunes reviews. 

Sarah Marshall: (40:40)

Yeah, she has. 

Michael Hobbes: (40:42)

Good God.

Sarah Marshall: (40:42)

Maybe she's been leaving us iTunes reviews. 

Michael Hobbes: (40:43)

"Kato speak." 

Sarah Marshall: (40:44)

She says, "that knapsack had not been found among the pieces of luggage Simpson brought back from Chicago. Could it have held evidence from the crime scene? Not bad for a recalcitrant witness, but I was convinced, even then, that Kato knew a lot more than he was telling." 

Michael Hobbes: (40:59)


Sarah Marshall: (40:59)

So it's funny because like, he does say things, he testifies as to the facts. He just minimizes what he's able to minimize without outright lying. 

Michael Hobbes: (41:10)

Right. He's just massaging everything a liiiittle bit. 

Sarah Marshall: (41:13)

So, that's it for his testimony. 

Michael Hobbes: (41:17)

It's funny, I imagined them walking out of Parker center together, but that obviously is not what happened. 

Sarah Marshall: (41:21)

Marcia and Kato? And they're holding hands. 

Michael Hobbes: (41:25)

Just cause like, the two characters in this story for us, I just assume that they're like going to go hang out, but like, no, of course not. 

Sarah Marshall: (41:30)

I think it's because they would probably be like, a good sort of like, short-lived USA network, buddy cop show in the 90s. And it's like, "Marcia and the dude."

Michael Hobbes: (41:42)

Yeah, I know there were probably a lot of dramas revolving around house guests in the years after this trial. Big boom in house guest narratives. 

Sarah Marshall: (41:52)

So after Kato's testimony, they questioned the coroner, David Golden, about his report on Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. And she writes, "I sat at counsel's table while David questioned Golden. What I remember most about the testimony that afternoon was not the witness, but the exhibits. The pictures of the victims. David had organized and mounted the autopsy photos on a strip of cardboard. It was a stroke of suburb lawyering. Up until then, I'd been busy with the criminalists and hadn't even seen those unforgettable gruesome photos. Good God."

Michael Hobbes: (42:26)

Yeah, they're fucking brutal. I remember those from the O.J.: Made in America documentary. It's like really rough. 

Sarah Marshall: (42:31)

Yeah. And I don't really want to talk about that in detail right now cause I think that's its own subject matter. 

Michael Hobbes: (42:38)


Sarah Marshall: (42:38)

I can't imagine looking at those for the first time in public, I guess, is the first thing I think of. What effect do those photos have on you? 

Michael Hobbes: (42:45)

I mean, I only saw glimpses of them because I was like, "oh shit," and then I put my hands over my eyes.

Sarah Marshall: (42:50)


Michael Hobbes: (42:50)

But from what I can tell, or like how they've been described to me, it's just an extremely intimately violent act to kill somebody with a knife. In a way that like, is unfathomable, just hearing like, so-and-so was stabbed to death. It's like the actual reality of somebody being stabbed to death is like fucking grizzly, dude. 

Sarah Marshall: (43:07)

Yeah. You know, all of that certainly is true. And I think when I think about my memory of those pictures, which I probably haven't looked at in over a year, what I find, I think most upsetting about them is how much you can see about how these people died. 

Michael Hobbes: (43:23)

What do you mean? 

Sarah Marshall: (43:23)

Because I feel like you, I mean, A) just from the details of what happened, you get some sense of just how much pain is involved in that. But then also just the fact that to die in such a struggle, I mean, cause there, Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman were inside of her, kind of condo yard, which was fenced in. And so one of the things that Marcia notes when she's looking at these pictures, she says of Ron Goldman's body, the killer had wigged, a merciless assault against an unarmed, unsuspecting victim, a victim who was rapidly trapped in a cage like corner of metal fencing. 

Michael Hobbes: (44:06)

That sucks. 

Sarah Marshall: (44:07)


Michael Hobbes: (44:08)

I have nothing remotely insightful to say. It's just is a huge bummer for both of these people. 

Sarah Marshall: (44:13)

Yeah. And about Nicole, she says, "she lay there like a marionette discarded by the puppeteer. I had a mental flash of the photo of her that hung by the stairs at Rockingham. I recalled her bright glossy features. That was a rich man's wife, someone to whom I couldn't relate. Now, as I saw her frail and broken in death, I felt a surge of helpless anger. I fought back the feeling. Times like this call for cool reason. The last thing you can afford is too much feeling. I drove home that night, feeling dejected, next to me was a stack of files and documents high enough to qualify me for the carpool lane. The cell phone rang, but I didn't pick it up. I had answer calls when I got home after the kids were asleep, that was when the night shift began." So we all know that cool reason is not going to be possible for anyone and especially not Marcia Clark. 

Michael Hobbes: (45:05)

It's hard because she's such a complicated figure because she is the only one who's putting Nicole front and center and seems to be actually mad about this in any sort of visceral way. But she's also like, working within a system where the same system that allows her to enact that anger in a sort of societal way also gives her a bunch of really big blindspots. 

Sarah Marshall: (45:22)

Yeah. And I think this is what I find most compelling about her, that like, she has this passion for avenging Nicole basically, and she is trying to avenge her. And I feel as if she is in a world where what you can do with that passion as a woman trying to act on behalf of other women is to put men in prison. 

Michael Hobbes: (45:45)


Sarah Marshall: (45:45)

You know? And that's just the part where I'm like, I think your passion is justified. And I think that the shape that it has taken and the infrastructure you are working in is not worthy of the reason that you're doing this to begin with. 

Michael Hobbes: (46:04)

Right. Is that it? Are we leaving Marcia, sleeping next to her moldy wall with her stack of papers and her vengeance?

Sarah Marshall: (46:09)

Yeah. With her samurai sword.

Michael Hobbes: (46:11)

Her yellow jumpsuit. 

Sarah Marshall: (46:12)

Her list of people she's going to prosecute. 

Michael Hobbes: (46:16)


Sarah Marshall: (46:16)

Yes. Let us, let us depart this fitfully sleeping lawyer. As we close another day. I feel a whole lot of ways about Marcia and maybe you do too. 

Michael Hobbes: (46:28)

I think the real lesson to take away from this episode is don't lie about stuff when there is footage available. 

Sarah Marshall: (46:33)

Yeah. That's actually a very usable lesson. We normally don't have those. Just assume that like there's footage of everything. Cause they're kind of is now.

Michael Hobbes: (46:44)

Yes, there kind of is now. 

Sarah Marshall: (46:44)

Tell the truth. Cause it's just, it's just easier to not have to remember stuff.