From Injustice to Reform -The Birth of Canada’s Miscarriages of Justice Commission - Ruth Van Vierzen : 169

Ruth van Vierzen's journey began in 1970, the year she was born and David Milgaard was wrongfully convicted of murder. While Ruth built her life, Milgaard spent years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, until his release in 1992. This injustice inspired a remarkable advocacy journey that ultimately reshaped Canadian law. 

In 2019, after Milgaard advocated for an independent commission to address wrongful convictions, Ruth reached out to him via LinkedIn. This connection led to the formation of a powerful advocacy group, including lawyer James Lockyer, wrongfully imprisoned Ron Dalton, and filmmaker Lori Kuffner. 

Through strategic letter writing, media engagement, and lobbying, the group secured meetings with Justice Minister David Lametti, which ultimately led to the establishment of the Miscarriage of Justice Commission. This was significant because Canada was the only G7 nation without such a body to review wrongful convictions, despite numerous government recommendations.
The commission is crucial for all Canadians, particularly Indigenous people who are disproportionately affected by wrongful convictions. Though Milgaard passed away in 2022 before the commission was fully implemented, his legacy lives on in the David and Joyce Milgaard’s Law, a symbol of transformative advocacy. 

Ruth’s story shows that meaningful change often starts with one person's determination to take action or refuse to give up. When we see injustice, we all have the power and perhaps the responsibility to be that person.  What issue matters enough to you that you would be willing to persist until you see change?

Chapters

• 2:21 The Milgaard case and lifelong impact
• 4:40 2019 spark and first outreach
• 7:20 Forming the core advocacy team
• 9:50 Strategy: letters, media, and meetings
• 13:25 Consultations and voices of the wrongfully convicted
• 16:10 Why Canada needed an independent commission
• 19:20 How the new commission changes the process
• 22:10 Design questions: membership, terms, representation
• 25:00 Politics, funding, and staying vigilant
• 28:00 Media silence and building public awareness
• 31:00 Real-world ripple effects and community cases
• 34:10 Civic persistence over bureaucracy
• 37:20 Local transparency, trust, and accountability
• 40:00 The nail-biting path to passage

Transcript

DanielaSM: 0:00

Hi, I'm Daniela. Welcome to my podcast, because Everyone has a Story, the place to give ordinary people's stories the chance to be shared and preserved. Our stories become the language of connections. Let's enjoy it. Connect and relate Because everyone has a story. I am so excited and truly honored to have Ruth in the show today. I really enjoy getting to know her. She has its incredible ability to take a very complex story and make it clear and understandable. And her passion for addressing injustice really shines through. And it is inspiring to see someone so committed to make a difference. While it is not her life story, she is giving us the incredible opportunity to learn about a law as important as the Miscarriage of Justice Commission, the David and Joyce Milgard Law. Something that many of us might never have known about otherwise. Ruth's journey, inspired by the wrongful conviction of David Milgard, who spent 23 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, shows how one person determination can create real change. So let's enjoy her story. Welcome, Ruth, to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. I know you have a very, very different story, and I'm really excited that you're sharing it. So why do you want to share your story?

RuthvanVierzen: 1:28

Thank you for the opportunity to share this story because I think it really has, even though it's a Canadian-based story, I think it will be of great interest globally. And it's uh something that I actually got involved with uh starting back in 2019. I reached out to a gentleman who was very notorious in Canada, but not for a reason he wanted to be notorious. That started us working together. It started a friendship, and we were able to accomplish a lot regarding a very important issue. So I'm I'm really happy to have this chance to share it because it does have global implications, you know, beyond just Canada.

DanielaSM: 2:06

Yes, and I'm excited that you're going to share that with everyone and that we are going to learn because I know you were saying that there was not enough press. I'm excited that we have an avenue here to do that. Yes, absolutely. Your story starts in in 2019, or when does your story start?

RuthvanVierzen: 2:21

It actually starts in 1970, the year that I was born. Because that is the year that David Milgard, who we're going to be talking about, was found guilty and imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit. He was not released from prison until 1992, when I was in university. And I think about this a lot from the time that I was born all the way through those years until I was in university. He was wrongly imprisoned. And I like to share that as a starting point to give chickeners imagine that length of time and imagine spending day in and day out in a prison where you don't belong because you were found guilty of a crime you never committed. So it started in 1970, 1992, it must have been 1992. I still recall the day I was sitting in my apartment reading the paper, and that was the year that he was released from prison because I'd been following his story, right? And I remember, so I remember reading about him and saying to myself, it was such a grave injustice. And that I thought one day I I want to do something around this problem of wrongful convictions in Canada. And that was kind of, I just left. Like I just remember thinking, I want to get involved in this somehow. Never really gave it much thought for many years. I mean, I followed the stories of other wrongful convictions. And then uh David Milgard made the cover of the Globe and Mail, one of our national newspapers, uh, back in 2019. And I and I read the article, it was so impactful. And yeah, the headline was something like, This can happen to anyone or this can happen to you. It was very, very impactful because it's so true, right? That we have a problem in Canada with wrongful convictions. And I was like, okay, this is it. I'm getting involved. I'm reaching out because he mentioned in the article he wanted to start a view, like a board. He wanted to start an organization that would pressure the government to create a commission around wrongful convictions to finally speed up the process. I reached out to David on LinkedIn and I messaged him and I introduced myself. I said, I read the article in the paper, and I remember writing, I said, I'm sure you've been inundated with messages and offers of help. But if if you're still looking for volunteers, let me know. I'd like to get involved and help this commission get created. And he replied within minutes. And he said, No, you're the only person who's reached out to me. So I was shocked. He wasn't inundated at all. We ended up having a phone call that day and things started rolling and we never looked back. The the only happy ending to the story is that called the Miscarriage of Justice Commission, it was created just in the final months before Justin Trudeau left office. That was one of his very big important accomplishments that he doesn't get enough recognition for.

DanielaSM: 5:07

So I have a lot of questions. So you say that you always follow the story, but why necessarily since you were little, you follow the story?

RuthvanVierzen: 5:15

Well, not since I was little, but as I got older, I'm I'm very sensitive to things around injustice. I always have been. As I got older, I I would, you know, and was starting to follow the news more. I always found myself very drawn to stories about people who were wrongly uh convicted, wrongly imprisoned in Canada.

DanielaSM: 5:34

Do you go to school and study law or related to that?

RuthvanVierzen: 5:38

I studied public policy at York University. Part of that was we had to do there's a big component around public law and constitutional law, not criminal law, but I I've always had an interest in law. I mean, to have a constitutional law and public law background, it helps, right? Because you understand government and government workings as well.

DanielaSM: 6:00

And then when you reach out, I know that him and his mother are the ones, you know, the they were all working together to to help him out their jail. Uh so what happened? So he he studied law while he was in prison, or how did he decide to create this commission that I also read that every other country like Australia, the UK have it, Canada was the only one who didn't.

RuthvanVierzen: 6:23

Yes. I don't know the history of how he came to this decision around wanting to start this independent commission, but it was something that he had been thinking about for a long time. And I think he was just struggling to maybe put the pieces together, get the right people in place to make it happen. You know, and and we have really important organizations in Canada like Innocence Canada, which um which uh is is a legal organization that provides legal services, and many of the lawyers involved have helped to uh free wrongly imprisoned people. But it just everything kind of just came together. So uh when we um when we started working together, he identified other key people he wanted to be in our group. We invited them, and I'd like to mention them because they they absolutely deserve to be named here. Uh one is James Lockier, he's one of Canada's most prominent criminal trial lawyers, very active in getting wrongfully convicted people exonerated. Ron Dalton, he was wrongly convicted. He's from the East Coast, he was wrongly convicted, spent eight years in prison. And then Lori Kufner, she is uh she has a production company, she does social justice documentaries, she's out west. So we worked together as a group, uh, and then of course David, David and I. So we would we would meet remotely, we would strategize. For any of your listeners who don't think letter writing still works, we wrote many letters and we were very strategic, and it absolutely works. Yeah, we did we did a lot of work together, we organized media conferences, it got the ball rolling. Because of David's notoriety, we were able to build on that. So we we were able to get a meeting with then Justice Minister David Lametti. We went to Parliament Hill, met with him. So James, David, and I went and we met with uh David Lametty in his office. And I'm pointing that out because I find we live in a time where people feel very disconnected from the workings of government. I mean, I can only speak for Canada, but I find here that if you have an interest in a topic and you want to get the ear of politicians, government, you know, bureaucrats, you can do that. But you have to, you have to do the work. You have to make those steps because, you know, they they need to know if you have an issue with something, right? And it wasn't easy, it was a lot of work. We had to work through the challenges of COVID, uh, but we just kept going and we were very persistent and we kept writing letters and uh and it absolutely paid off.

DanielaSM: 8:48

People that were wrongly convicted were also participating. How was that?

RuthvanVierzen: 8:52

Yeah, so I'm not sure to what extent they were. I I know that we had talked about informing them about it and absolutely informing people. We we have to make sure that people in the prison system know about the the new commission. David Lametti, through his office, they started a consultation uh process. They had two uh very impressive retired uh judges who led the consultation process. It went on for uh several months. So people were invited to make presentations, and that included people who were wrongly convicted, who were now released, and they were able to make presentations. I was able to attend one of the roundtable discussions. It was very well done. So they came out with a bunch of recommendations that then informed the creation of the commission.

DanielaSM: 9:38

How was the process? Can you describe it in like a simple way? How so you you wrote a letter to David, and then he said, Oh, great that you're going to be part of it, and then you try to collect other people to be in the committee. And so what happened then?

RuthvanVierzen: 9:53

Yeah, so on we were communicating with social media, we had a phone call, got to know each other, uh, agreed that yes, we, you know, he was interested in what I could bring to the table to help. So we had that initial uh so he recommended the the people, James, Ron, and Lori, that we start working together. They all agreed as well. And we had we just had we set up the initial meetings, we had virtual uh calls, thank God for technology, especially because we were doing all of this. Um, I remember we were we met with David Lametty in his office, and then not long after, all the COVID stuff happened, which definitely impacted our work. But luckily with technology, we were able to keep meeting. We decided to that we would, under David's uh name, we would send letters from the group, like from David, but on behalf of the group, and we would explain why this was so important that Canada have this. So we we and it wasn't just one letter, you know, we we ended up writing several letters, but we also CC'd all of the other leaders of the other political parties. I found out like who are the shadow ministers, like the conservatives in opposition, they will have shadow ministers who are like the critics and they they will keep an eye on what's happening in certain portfolios. So I we so we were very strategic. We included as many people as we thought would have what were stakeholders, and uh it didn't happen right away, but eventually we got the ear of the Justice Department and Prime Minister Trudeau, because he was, of course, included as well in the in the letter campaign. The conference really helped. We organized the conference that happened out in, I'm gonna say Calgary or Winnipeg. David was out in the Calgary area, so it made sense to have it out there. I didn't go to that, but we got some really good press coverage from it. And then we were able to build on that momentum because now it's getting into the press. So when things get into the press, it's harder for the government to ignore. And they weren't ignoring us, but but it just it helps with the momentum, right? To get press interest in the story.

DanielaSM: 11:46

And what were the challenges that you came across?

RuthvanVierzen: 11:49

You know, you mentioned earlier about how other countries, if you think of Australia, Britain, all of Gotland, they already have miscarriage of justice commissions. Canada has definitely been late to the game with it. We've had now, I think at the time we'd had six or seven inquiries based on previous wrongful conviction high-profile cases. And every inquiry, you know how that happens in Canada, something goes wrong, we have an inquiry. And then the report comes out. Every report said that Canada needs a commission that is independent of the government that addresses wrongful convictions and works more quickly to get these wrongly imprisoned people out of prison. Because if you're saying that you're wrongly imprisoned, you can stay in jail for years while it goes through the process. And then it can sit on the justice minister's desk for another, like for months or years while they're deciding is this politically, legally, does this make sense to release this person, right? So the whole point of the commission is to speed that up. So we had a very good contact in England. And I wish I could remember her name. She was very helpful. I should have confirmed her name before I came on, but she was our uh David had connected with her, and she was an and she she's very active in the commission there and wrongful convictions. She was an amazing source of guidance for us on what to do, what not to do. To the credit of the inquiry, the judges, they looked heavily into what was being done in other countries for best practices and what not to do. And that also helped to inform. So we really got the ball rolling on a lot of really important stuff. And why it was so important is because it helps every single Canadian. We always said this is not a political party issue. This is something where any Canadian can be wrongly convicted, and every Canadian will be helped by having a commission like this. It's a really important fail-safe for Canadian citizens. No one is immune from a wrongful conviction. So uh we just felt so driven to make sure that we weren't the only country in like the G7 that doesn't have a wrongful conviction commission, especially when we have a bad track rec track record for wrongful convictions. But the US didn't have a commission. No. They have uh, I believe it's uh, I want to say North Carolina, one of the states has kind of their own version of it, which we also got information on. I'm sure you're familiar with their high incarceration rates. They have a very high proportion of people of color who are in prison. And they have a really high rate of wrongly imprisoned black people. They tend to disproportionately suffer from wrongful convictions. They need this, they absolutely need this. I hope that the states will just individual states will start doing it more and more, and that will kind of encourage the federal government there to do it. But maybe, maybe, maybe they'll be inspired by us.

DanielaSM: 14:46

Yes, that's true. What is the difference then between the old and the new now in the systems?

RuthvanVierzen: 14:52

I I will say that because this happened just before we had the change in the government, I think Prime Minister Carney, I don't think he's doing the same instructional letters to his cabinet the way that Trudeau did. Trudeau was very detailed in his instructions. My understanding is that because this all happened just before Trudeau stepped down and then there was the election, but my understanding is that the money had been set aside to fund it. But I don't know at this point what's happening with it. And call, I need to reach out and see what is happening in the Justice Department to move forward with it. Oh, how does it improve things? Yes. So the key thing is it's an independent body. So whereas before the justice minister made the final decision, this is an independent body where someone who has been not just wrongly convicted, but there was also this idea of addressing disproportionate convictions. So someone uh put so for example, we know that indigenous people in Canada have a much higher rate of incarceration, but they also get sentenced to much longer terms. And there's this whole thing now happening with Indigenous people, not just now, it's been building for a while where they get like an indeterminate sentence. It's very vague. For example, there's a disproportionate number of indigenous people who get identified as dangerous offenders. And I having read the case law, I know that it's often not appropriate or valid. There's a lot of racism in our justice system against Indigenous people. It's not justice for Indigenous people. Yeah, so the reason I'm bringing that up is because the whole point of the commission, as well, it said we have to address not just wrongful convictions, but disproportionate sentencing. People who are getting way longer sentences for things that maybe a white person will get much less. What it does is it gives an avenue for someone who is wrongly convicted. They don't have to wait for the justice minister to make the final decision, for example. And I'm not going to be able to like give all the technical details, but the key thing is it gives them an avenue where they an independent body of, you know, made up of lawyers and experts, they will look at the case in an unbiased way and they will identify if there if there was a miscarriage of justice, is that it's an avenue of independence that also helps to speed up the process so that someone can doesn't languish. But isn't this similar to having uh no, because they what they'll do, uh and and I'm I'm I probably won't use the right wording, but what they'll do is they will give um, so they're not going to make a decision. They will say, they will give like a recommendation, they will say that yes, it it there is a uh and I have to be careful about the wording because there's a very specific legal wording that that basically to say that there was a probability of a miscarriage of justice. And then that opens things back up. Whereas someone who so if they have to go through all like there still are appeals, but what it does is it it uh speed it just it speeds up the process. I'm trying I'm trying to explain it as like a non-technical way as possible, but yes, of course.

DanielaSM: 17:51

Thank you. I appreciate it. And it's always the same people in this commission, or is this like a big uh kind of group of people, association, and then it depends on each case. Maybe 10 people go to these and 10 people go to that other case. How does that work exactly?

RuthvanVierzen: 18:05

I believe they're still working through the details because there was also discussions about how long is their term? Is it renewable terms? Because the idea is you also want fresh perspectives, but you don't want to lose that expertise either, right? And there's also, for example, they were like, well, we we need to have people of color represented, we need to have indigenous representation. So it can't just be a bunch of white people with legal backgrounds doing this. We have to have the legal expertise, but we also have to have representation that reflects the problem that got us here in the first place. I don't think all of the details are sorted out. And I think also where where it was left was that it's in place, but it's going to be tweaked as they go. They're going to improve upon it based on lessons learned. Remember at one point they were talking about like two-year terms or something. So it wouldn't be like someone stays in it forever. It would be that there would be rotations out for sure.

DanielaSM: 18:54

But so at the moment you say that it's left that yes, you got the approval, but it's not in place yet because the government changed.

RuthvanVierzen: 19:02

So yeah, my understanding is that it was funded, but I don't know at this point what the new government under Mark Carney is doing. And that's the other point, too, is that you know, when you take something like this on, it, you know, it seems like it was a it is an important accomplishment that we were all able to work together and and bring this to fruition. But the work often like, you know, it doesn't end. Like there was like I was so excited and thrilled when the commission was um came into law because it's now on the books. But the work doesn't end there because you still have there's still there's always that oversight need, right? Yeah, we're like, okay, but but what's happening now? We've changed government. And the as you know, with with watching the news and politics, the the the what we focus on changes so quickly. Right now it's what's going on south of the border and wildfires, and and then that can distract from other goals, right? So as citizens, we need to keep our elected officials accountable to make sure that they're not taking their eye off things as well. So, but I have to give credit to the government because there were long periods where it was things kind of went quiet, and then we'd be like, okay, we need to follow up and see what's happening. So I would be making phone calls and I would talk to like uh their the parliamentary assistants who were amazing, by the way. And they were like, We we uh we know it seems like it's quiet, but we assure you we are working on things. Uh, and it was a top priority for uh David Lametty, who has who since has left public office, but he was true to his word. He said that day in his office, he said, This is a top priority for me, and we will get this done. That's a big commitment. And they they did. I feel like they they maybe didn't get enough recognition for that. You know, now they've both Trudeau and and Lametty have left office, and I'd say it was one of the most important things that they did in their political careers. And and oddly, the media has been very quiet about it. I remember the day it was announced, I got it in like in my computer, right? Because I fought I was following the updates, and the media wasn't running stories about this. It was James Lockyer, another uh criminal lawyer, who said it's one of the most important changes to Canada's criminal law in decades. So why wasn't the media picking up on it? It's very strange to me. And that's why I so am appreciative of this opportunity, because I can put this out on social media and and you know, share the story. It can go global through your channels and and the more people that hear about it, and uh and then in other countries where they don't have access to this level of justice, perhaps, it can spur on change in other countries as well. So it's hopefully it it inspires uh people to just be aware of it and then perhaps take action in their own countries.

DanielaSM: 21:46

That's true. And also the law is is already there. So perhaps each next person s hears it and says, Oh, I was wrongly convicted, they know that this exists, this commission can happen. What is you know one step closer, I guess.

RuthvanVierzen: 22:00

Absolutely. And and that's what ended up happening after the fact because one of the things our group had agreed to do was reach out to our local media as well. We just kept trying to get more press interest. I'm in North Bay, Ontario. I had reached out to our local papers. One of them agreed to talk with me. What was cool is that we actually I got David on the phone as well. So the reporter did an interview at the with both me and David, and it ended up making the cover of our local paper here, which I was really pleased about. And from that, I had three, no, I had four people reach out to me. Two on Facebook. I had a grandmother reach out to me who was very concerned about her grandson who was being held in a local jail. But needless to say, it it really highlighted how basically there were a bunch of charges that had gotten added on. Like they they will pile on the charges because they they want to get the person for something, right? Basically, this young guy was saying, I I admit I'm guilty of that. But he's like, I'm not guilty of what I'm being accused of here. And he says, and I'm not going to agree to it. And they said, if you agree to everything, we'll let you out on bail. And he said, I'm not agreeing to those things. And then eventually his girlfriend came forward and said, or his ex-girlfriend and said, Yeah, I lied about those charges, about those accusations. So she didn't want to appear as a witness because she had lied. We are all vulnerable to the justice system at every level. If it doesn't work with integrity, and if the employees of that system don't behave themselves, we're the ones who pay the price. That grandmother was suffering. She wanted her grandson out of jail. Uh, a woman reached out to me about her indigenous partner who was languishing in jail. A group of us end up working, starting to work together to support him. So, this, you know, when you take this kind of action, you don't know where it's going to lead, but you can end up having, you know, impacts that you're that you don't expect you're going to have, and it can be really positive. You know, I always say to people, what's of interest to you? Like I have a personal rule. If I'm gonna complain about something, I then have to do something about it.

Speaker 00: 24:09

So I I hold myself accountable to that. So so I'm like, I have to be careful what I complain about because then I expect myself to, whether it's environmental pollution or injustice or whatever. So like, okay.

DanielaSM: 24:21

That's a that's a difficult one. That's true. It's easy to complain, but what can you do about it?

RuthvanVierzen: 24:26

Exactly. And this is one of my pet peeves when people keep saying, well, when is the government going to fix this? When is the government going to do this? And people are constantly looking to the government to do everything. And I get it, we pay taxes and all of that, but the government is not intended to be our keeper for every single thing in our lives. We have to stop ceding control to government institutions because the more we do that, the more we're saying, I am not in control of my own life and I can't affect change. When in fact, the very opposite is true. Government expects us to step up. And like we have to do our civic duty. We are civilians in this country, and we we have, I think we have a responsibility to do our part and not just ask the government to do everything. And then on top of it, complain about the taxes, right? Like every time we want the government to do something new, there's a tax cost for them doing that. So is it something we can do ourselves, right? There is a cost to creating this commission, but if you think of how much is paid out to wrongly, because here we pay out to wrongly convicted uh Canadians in millions of dollars. If we don't have to do that, and if we're not paying the daily and yearly cost to house an innocent person in jail for decades, that's all money saved because the commission builds in accountability. Uh, it keeps people accountable. So there's a lot of cost savings, and that all all the cost savings came about because a group of us said, you know, we need to, we need to affect change around this once and for all.

DanielaSM: 25:54

Yes, when you talk about us expecting the government to fix everything, I feel like sometimes it is a lack of knowledge on how can I go about it. You know, like I have a lot of questions sometimes about the municipality, and I just don't know uh when do they talk about this? Where can I go and listen to about this case, you know? And so I mentioned it to my husband and I just forget about it. Obviously, it's supposed to be my work to find out where you're busy with your daily life and stuff, so it's easy to complain than try to research more because I I'm sure that all this that you did was a lot of research.

RuthvanVierzen: 26:26

It it was. Uh, thank God we live in a time though where everything is at our fingertips. Um and my rule is if it's not at my fingertips, I'm on the phone. I pick up the phone. I and you know, I I probably call City Hall more than they would like, but I don't care because they're it's like I'm not a nuisance. If I have a legitimate request, I'll call and find the department I have to speak to and to get the answers that I need. And and we all have that at our fingertips. Go online, do the research, uh, and then pick up your phone if if you still can't get the answers. Because all of these people, you know, we have to remember there's they're civil servants. Their job is to support Canadians, whether municipally, provincially, federally. So I think as long as we approach them with respect and a genuine interest or concern, then I, you know, I think it's very valid to pick up the phone and call them. It's come it's come up in our city because there's it, there's been ongoing issues around transparency in our municipality. There's concerns about accessibility of the public to go to meetings, like what you're saying, right? Like when is the meeting being held on that? When is there a committee meeting? I find that they're they're good about putting stuff online, but I find with our new council here and mayor, it doesn't seem to be as available. Like they seem to be a little bit more, I don't know, secretive around how they're doing things. I don't that's my perception based on like it used to be that you could access all their meetings on cable and you can't seem to do that anymore. There, I think that there is such a problem with lack of transparency. Like there's a tendency for uh politicians to underestimate the intelligence of voters, right? Of citizens, and to their peril, because that's when they get blindsided. And and it and there is such a lack of trust now, which is really unfortunate, but they breed that lack of trust because of the lack of transparency and things like that. They're like, just be vague, just be vague, it'll go away. And I always say to people, you know, what's my secret weapon? When when I'm really when I really believe in something, what's my secret weapon for getting uh for achieving a goal or getting what I want? It's because I'm persistent and I don't give up and I don't go away. And the number of times that someone said to me, We really just hoped you were gonna go away. And that and I've been told, like I've had, I've had people in government say to me, Oh, well, usually a citizen will email or or write us once or call, and then they never do it again. And so it's easy to ignore them. And and that's really important information for your listeners to have. They just know if they put if they put your information at the bottom of the pile, you're likely never gonna reach out and then they can shred it in a year or so.

DanielaSM: 29:03

Yes.

RuthvanVierzen: 29:03

If you truly believe in what you're going for, keep asking. Like the vague responses, it's unacceptable. Yes, it's absolutely unacceptable. And and I think it's up to us to push back and say, that was vague and an insult to my intelligence. Take another crack at your answer, right?

DanielaSM: 29:21

Yes, that's good. That's good. You know what is it's funny because I am very persistent too, and I don't go away. That's sometimes I have gotten things that way too, because I'm thinking, no, I want you to answer, even if it says no, I want to know. So we insist, and it's true. I mean, otherwise people would just forget about you.

RuthvanVierzen: 29:37

Absolutely, and you have a right to know. We all have a right to know about things going on in public office that directly affect us. Like we're having a major controversy in North Bay right now. Our mayor uh is under the spotlight because he used city credit cards for personal expenses, and it amounted to like $23,000 at a municipal level. Like that might sound like a small amount of money, but at the municipal level, it's it's not. And it was like for things like dog food and cigarettes and golf course memberships. And this all came out at a time when they raised our taxes. His answer was, I'm not in the wrong. I didn't make any mistakes. But now we have an integrity commissioner, and it's just been this big thing. And this is to my point, why do we have such a lack of trust? Because these stories keep coming out about people who are entrusted with the public trust. They need to, they need to lead with integrity, and and they're consistently found to have their hand in the cookie jar. And it puts the onus on us, then we do have to do the work as citizens, right? But maybe that's not such a bad thing that we have to say, you know what, we it's up to us to keep vigilant and keep them accountable because they clearly can't do it on their own.

DanielaSM: 30:53

Exactly. Very few people would take action like you. The majority of the people would just complain and continue. So, Ruth, going back to these, I want to know the moment. How was the, you know, you you were saying a little bit how was the the excitement of when it was approved, but after so many years of you working for these, how was that moment when you you got a letter or an email? How was it?

RuthvanVierzen: 31:17

I got an email because I was on the the email updates. It was it's very difficult to express the incredible relief that me and and many, many other people, because this became a very big movement of people. There were so many people involved in this process by the end who who spoke as witnesses, who went to Ottawa and spoke in the Senate uh hearings, which that's a whole other thing. I learned I had never watched Senate hearings uh for a particular issue. Like sometimes I'll catch them on TV, but we have we have an incredible democracy here. And if you get involved in something like this and you see the process, I think Canadians actually should be proud of the how our democracy works. And it may not be exciting, but we really do our homework to make sure that when a law is passed, that it's that it reflects the current times and and what Canadians are wanting. So I got very involved in what there were extensive committee hearings where witnesses came forward and spoke to Senate members about this issue. Guy Paul Moran, he was wrongly convicted back in the 80s. He was exonerated, but he gave an incredible witness testimony along with two indigenous men who were also wrongly convicted. James Lock here, David Lametti. There were such impressive people who came forward as witnesses. So I really enjoyed listening to those committee hearings. The reason I'm telling you that is because the clock was ticking. And we knew that Justin Trudeau that an election was going to be called. And we were down to the final weeks. And what happens with a new bill is that there will be a Senate committee ahead, there's a Senate critic, and this person is assigned to really evaluate a new piece of legislation very carefully and to send it back to the House of Commons to work out the details, to improve it, to say this is problematic, you got to fix it. What was interesting is that in this particular one, because all of the stakeholders, even the Senate members, everyone was saying, like they were begging them. They were like, please do not send this back to the House. We don't have time. There's going to be an election called, and this will die. And all of these years of work will just be gone. It'll evaporate. I I'm guessing, I don't know, but I'm I don't think it did go back. I think they basically said it's a good piece of legislation. We're going to work it out. We're going to improve it as we go. I was dreading it. I and I'm listening to these experts saying, please, please don't send it back to the House of Commons. And um, you know, so it was just a waiting game. And I was just dreading that it was gonna get just, you know, it was just gonna get lost. So when I got the news, I was, I was, it was like, I think it was, I'm thinking December, and it was like the best Christmas present. I was just like, this is this made my year. So all of that work, it we we did it. The sad thing is that David uh Milgard died in 2022. He died very suddenly and unexpectedly. And his mom had passed prior just prior to that. So it's it's actually the Joyce Milgard Law. We wanted it named after them, and we didn't think it would ever happen. But to David Lametti's credit, he he said, We're gonna name it the Joyce and David Milgard Law. Uh, it's the Miscarriage of Justice Commission. So they didn't mess around. They they acknowledged there's a miscarriage of justice. It it just there were all these wonderful gifts around it. I I was so thrilled, but also sad. It was bittersweet because David and Joyce weren't there. I mean, they're they're there like spiritually. Uh I'm hoping smiling, but they like they they made such tremendous sacrifices for decades. It just would have been nice if we all could have celebrated together with it around it. But uh yeah, it was just a it was euphoria. I I was just and not because I I'm like, oh, look what we did, although we did achieve something really important, it's because look what we did for the country for our fellow Canadians, and that was always the case.

DanielaSM: 35:18

Yes, and I think that is uh a major achievement. The satisfaction is is incredible because you work really hard, you and your team to do this. So that's just incredible. Wow. Yeah. You were having a job while you were doing this, or this was your only job?

RuthvanVierzen: 35:34

No, this was just uh I I did it around my I'm self-employed, so I have some flexibility with my schedule, but I was working like after hours and and weekends, and and it wasn't like it's not that it was a you know, these things they go in spurts. So sometimes I'd be working like, you know, maybe a Saturday writing letters or something, and then there'd we'd be waiting and but it was over several years. So that's the thing too. I think when you take something like this on, especially with the government, you have to be in it for the it's like a long game, and you have to be willing to just keep pushing, like we were saying, keep following up and and keep prodding them and don't go away until you it's like it's like what happened in Ontario with the green belt, you know, when the government was trying to uh develop protected lands, Ontario citizens just kept pushing, right, until they get they gave in. So that's what we need to do as citizens. I think it's our it's our duty.

DanielaSM: 36:27

Is there something that you need to do? Keep pressing for Mark Carney to to do something.

RuthvanVierzen: 36:31

Yes, and that's something I'm going to take on now. Um, I haven't been in touch with my like fellow team members in a while. Just because he did his instructions to his cabinet ministers differently than true than Trudeau did. So I'm not really clear what their priorities are. So I'm I'm gonna reach out. And and again, that's the that's the kind of thing that everyone should feel very prepared and and open to doing and not be anxious about calling on your whether it's your MP in your local town or uh going right to Parliament Hill. They're civil servants, that's what they're there for, and they do want to hear from Canadians. Yeah, I'll I'll just reach out. I'll I'll just make a phone call and some inquiries and find out what's happening.

Speaker 00: 37:13

And I'll I'll do some updates on social media.

DanielaSM: 37:15

Yes. So this is a story, but it's also your story. So after achieving this big thing of this piece of legislation, what else is there for you? Like, are you feeling like, okay, now I want to do more of this or this was enough, or what is it?

RuthvanVierzen: 37:30

So I I was working in this for a number of years and helping other people. I I have stepped back. I've got some things that I'm I'm working on personally in in my life on more of the creative side. The I'm the kind of person where if something comes up and I feel really strongly about it, then I will get involved. Something just came in my news feed this morning and environmentally that's impacting our region. I signed the petition. Signing a petition, I think, is really important, but I'm I know that's something I'm gonna get more involved in because it's impacting, it's about chemical spraying in our region. That hurts all of us, right? So I I know I'm gonna get involved in that a little bit more. But I'm I'm more like if something's really important to me and impacts me, or or I can help others, I'll definitely get involved.

DanielaSM: 38:14

And your friends and your group of people are very similar to you? Is that more than just a roof? Um, like, oh, people who are politically or like active on on stuff like this? Yeah, and somebody who, you know, you decide, okay, I really care about this, I'm gonna do something about it. I think that you are a rare case, but you you let me know.

RuthvanVierzen: 38:31

Um, I don't I don't know. I don't think so. I I'm not sure. Like I've I've had um, you know, I I think about some of the people I'm connected with on Facebook who we message once in a while. And I I think there are people doing their own things that are that they're passionate about. There's a group here that's very focused on cleaning up our city, and they've got a really good volunteer base now. I see people doing like specific things that they're really passionate about. Uh and and they're making a really big difference. Like last year, my husband and I volunteered at this Christmas dinner that goes on. It's been happening for years and years and years to bring the community together who they're people are gonna either be alone for Christmas or they're they're underhoused. And that was an amazing thing to be part of. But that's we were just volunteering there, but there's a group of people and there's a woman heading that up. She's headed up for years. So I get very inspired by things like that. And we can all do that. You know, it's find something that is important to you that you enjoy that and and seize it. And and you know, if you're not happy with something, it wait, what's that thing? Be the change you want to see in the world, right? It's it's so true. If we feel strongly enough, we'll muster up the courage and and the commit the time to doing it. Yes. And if you don't, don't complain about it. Yes.

DanielaSM: 39:46

Exactly. Wonderful. Is there anything else that uh we you think we didn't touch enough or do you want to mention?

RuthvanVierzen: 39:53

Uh no, I do want to thank you again for the opportunity to tell this story. Uh I I was trying to share it in a way that was um, you know, inspiring. I don't I don't think it it would overwhelm people to do what we did as a group. I do just want people to feel inspired. If they see change that needs to be made in their community or their country, just start and trust, have faith that the resources you need and the people you need are going to fall into place, that that you will get what you need to make it happen. And don't give up, be persistent. Yes, be persistent.

DanielaSM: 40:28

That's true. That's true. And no, I appreciate the story. I didn't know anything about this, so I am grateful for you coming and sharing and in a simple way as I can understand it and many others too. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. It's great to be here. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Ruth as much as I did. Her clarity, passion, and persistance are a beautiful reminder that standing up against injustice, no matter how complex, can lead to a real change. If this spoke to you, please write a comment and share it with someone who could use a reminder of the power of determination and avocacy, leading to ordinary magic spread out a little further. Join me next time for another story conversation. Thank you for listening. Hasta pronto!