Jeremy interviews his uncle as he hits 80 with no plans for retirement.
“Marketing moves consumers to the product and merchandising moves your product to the consumers.”
Tim began his career in advertising in the 1960s and went on to own and run a motor vehicle parts and accessories business.
There is lots to learn from as Tim moves between reflection and how he feels about business today.
For more info, free resources, useful content, & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
Jeremy interviews his uncle as he hits 80 with no plans for retirement.
“Marketing moves consumers to the product and merchandising moves your product to the consumers.”
Tim began his career in advertising in the 1960s and went on to own and run a motor vehicle parts and accessories business.
There is lots to learn from as Tim moves between reflection and how he feels about business today.
For more info, free resources, useful content, & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
Bob and Jeremy's Conflat the Reality Podcast.
Speaker 2:Good morning Tim. Good morning Uncle Tim. Good morning Jess. How are things with you? Very good indeed. It's grey, as you might expect, but I'm hoping they'll hit some tennis balls today.
Speaker 3:Yes, england have lost the toss. Australia won the toss of the test, so England are bowling.
Speaker 2:And I think, talking of cricket, we have to win that or it's game over, isn't it Correct? Those of you who are tuning in, who like cricket and tennis, that's what's happening at the moment. I think the women are better at the cricket than the men currently by quite a little stretch. So where are you today? Where am I speaking to you from?
Speaker 3:I'm at Ollie's house because he's got the set up here and he had a pair of headphones which were not actually using.
Speaker 2:Well, I can see you and I can hear you clearly. So the way I sort of see this session is you've reached an age of 80, which doesn't look possible. Looking at you across the screen it must seem a funny number. I don't think you've aged beyond sort of your 50s to me, and you're still working. So I thought it would be interesting to interview somebody who's had that much experience but is also still selling and still working in business, and so I thought it'd be quite fun. So I've got some questions in you. I know you've also prepared some things to talk about, so we'll dance around a little between those. So here we go for a sort of big reflective one to kick off. If you think back to when you first started working and I think am I right in saying that you went to the same university as John Major- Absolutely University of Life, Very difficult to get into.
Speaker 2:You got a first, didn't you? Double first, double first. Yeah, I mean, that's impressive. I've got a hat which I bought in Disneyland with MU, which stands for Monsters University. So sometimes people when they ask me what uni I said I went to MU they go, is that Manchester, I say, is Monsters, monsters University. And you started working and I'm wondering if you remember back to that. You can have all the sort of enthusiasm of youth and then you hit a wall and you make a mistake, but you learn something hugely from that. Can you think of a good early lesson where it only would have been learned by actually not succeeding?
Speaker 3:in a sense. Well, possibly once, when I was in advertising, I was probably being a bit too polite to a client and he said no, come on, what do you really think, tim? I told him what I really thought, but sometimes there's no point being patronising and over polite. You just have to actually say what you mean, or say what you think.
Speaker 2:Was that your first foray? You was advertising your first business area.
Speaker 3:I can't really remember, but I do remember I had a wonderful boss who was just fantastic and he said to me look, I want you to do this job and I want you to make instant decisions. Don't dilly-dally. If you make a wrong decision, I will support you, I will help you, but I want you to make instant decisions, because that's what this work is all about, and that was very interesting.
Speaker 2:Yes, whereas I suppose when we're so young, everyone's making decisions for us and then you're tasked with making them yourself. So is that the early leader that you think of most fondly?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know. This guy was a great boss and he taught me. I went into a marketing company, part of a large advertising agency, and he taught me so much. He became then a marketing director of Cadbury's, managing director of Colgate Palmolev, so he was a very big. He was a very clever guy, very good guy.
Speaker 2:Wow, and those brands still going strong. I don't know if Colgate's part of Palmolev or owned by Proctor and Gamble or something now, but huge brands, yes, big brands. If we move forward to the future now, just to give people an indication of what you're up to now, you're still selling, but in a different capacity, aren't you? What is it you're?
Speaker 3:up to. Yes, I work, I handle all the UK contracts and enquiries for a very large Italian engineering company. I met the boss full enough, on the beaten antique, as you do, and we were all quite merry on New Year's Eve and he said tell me, tim, what you do. And he said can we have coffee tomorrow morning? So I said certainly. So he said, look, I told him what I did and I was working at that point for an American company handling all their business in Europe, and he said can you work for me? I said, sure, why not? So he said come over to Milan. So I flew over to Milan and I wrote out my own contract, handed it to him and he said fine, accept it. So I have been working for him for the plastic division, plastic blowing division and oil division, getting contracts.
Speaker 3:I handled six big contracts in that time. I'm working on four big biomass enquiries now which I hope will. One or two might come off. So that's very interesting. And I handle, as I said, all the contracts and enquiries. And I'm pretty antique now they don't know how old I am. They know I'm old, but I'm doing a pretty valuable job for them and when I depart I'm not sure who's going to take over.
Speaker 2:And what is it that makes you still? I mean, because I think you have a deal where you're paid some money to help them in one capacity, but you also will make money if you sell, if the sales come in, which is the commissions and things.
Speaker 3:That's right. I mean, if the business comes in, it's very big business because the contracts are half a million, three quarters of a million, a million euros, quite substantial, and I'm working on one where we put up the quote for two million euros. It's a lot of money. I get paid a retainer for doing some marketing work for them, but if I get up the business, that's big bananas, which is very good, yeah, fabulous.
Speaker 2:What is it that makes you because I've always known you having energy and wanting to add value and do the proper job what is it that makes you still go into your wonderful little office and… Well, the saying goes that if you wake up on the Monday morning not knowing what you're going to do, that's a bit depressing.
Speaker 3:So I still love the chase. I'm working with really clever, interesting, dynamic people in Italy. They're charming, they're clever. I don't find my work remotely stressful. It's very interesting. So I do love the chase of the business. In fact, when the order comes it's almost an anti-climax. It's the chase which is challenging and that's what I do and I like it. My sons mostly forbid me to stop working. I asked my wife two years ago should I stop working? She said why? So I've got my mind, I've got my health, fortunately, I've got a lovely little office international headquarters, of course. So why not carry on? Okay, if I don't get any of the business I'm working on now, I will probably stop next year when I'm 81, but at the moment I've got no intention of stopping.
Speaker 2:I mean, if we think of the different things you've done, this one has quite long lead times, quite a lot of patience, yeah very long lead times.
Speaker 3:If we get any of this business this year 2023, we won't be able to deliver until next spring or summer.
Speaker 2:Wow, do you mean install and actually sort of start?
Speaker 3:Yes, it takes sort of 7 to 12 months to manufacture these machines, the big machines twice the size of a transit van sort of thing. Very complicated, a lot of pipes and compresses and engineering work very, very high quality. So it takes time and they don't. They don't hold stock, they build to order, they do not hold stock.
Speaker 2:Wow, okay, and has the world of all the things that are going on Ukraine supply chains? Does that affect their raw materials to build?
Speaker 3:Yes, everything's all. The materials have increased enormously, steel, everything has increased enormously. So so most of the people understand that and they just have to get on with it. I mean, we have competitors? Of course we do. We aren't normally beat non-price, we're not normally beat non-price and we just have to get on with it and quote our best and try and get the business.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because you also at a time owned and ran a factory in Hadnam, of course, where I grew up, and then I know other factories in Wiltshire. What's, what's been one of the big changes you think to actually manufacturing and producing goods?
Speaker 3:Well, the big change has been communication. I mean, when I first started in business it was Telex you've probably never heard of a Telex and then typing letters and phone calls. That was the only means, but most of the business was done on correspondence letters. So, for instance, in the first big advertising agency I worked for, there's a typing pool of 12 people.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:And and, and they were literally typing letters all, or proposals or marketing plans all day, every day. When I went to my next job, I had my own secretary, which was very nice, and then when I went to Alexander, my father, I also had my own secretary. So those days, typing letters was the main form of communication, if you can believe that.
Speaker 2:It's funny, isn't it? Because now we have this endless email trail of previous email to the next. Was it a question of filing letters and keeping the same chain?
Speaker 3:and oh, wow, it went on and on. Yes, lots of big files. But I mean, for instance, nobody, nobody did their own typing. You all had a secretary. Nowadays, of course, even possibly the biggest bosses will have a secretary or PA shielding him or her from unwanted calls, but everybody now does their own typing, don't they? Yeah, oh, completely, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:No, it's who that was all those years ago, unheard of no, if I think of my own mother who was a secretary your sister and she was in advertising. She was at J Walter Thompson, I believe, for a period of time she was. Were you there too, or were you at another agent?
Speaker 3:I was at Mia from 69 to 71. Brilliant.
Speaker 2:No lovely business. J W T, one of the big giants. You met my father in sales, because my father clearly married your sister and I believe you were working at Sanderson who made wonderful or they still exist, making beautiful wallpapers William Morris. I'm wondering what what you were doing there and what my father was doing there.
Speaker 3:I was. I tried to get into advertising in 1968, 69. And I was told that if I didn't have the university degree I needed practical selling experience. So I literally I've been to Sanderson's for a previous job, just just working sort of part time for a photographic studio. I thought Sanderson's got a wonderful atmosphere, wonderful show. I went in literally asked if there were any jobs. The showroom manager came to see me and he said start on Monday. I was earning nine pounds a week plus 1% commission. That was my salary of talking about 1968 now, quite a long time ago. And the 1% commission was very important because that made all the difference in whether you could take your girlfriend out to supper or dinner during the week or not.
Speaker 2:Wow, was that selling business to consumer? You were selling rolls of wallpapers In the big showroom.
Speaker 3:consumers came in from the street and we were selling them wallpaper. I was on the wallpaper side. There was a big fabric side and the floor above, but your father and I were selling wallpaper to punters who came in from the street.
Speaker 2:Not necessarily interior designers. They could be people taking it home Could be, could be, could be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, could be that some people came in with interior designers and wanted to ask lots and lots of questions, which we, of course, could answer.
Speaker 2:What was the average order value? How much would someone spend in a transaction?
Speaker 3:Well, anything from the cheapest wallpapers four and six pounds, which is about pretty two and a half pence, and the most expensive was about nine or 10 pounds a roll, and if you could get a 40 or 50 pound order that was good. But the big trick was to try and grab any Bangladeshis or Indians coming into wallpaper, the restaurant with gold and red flock wallpaper At 10 pounds a roll. If you could do that, you're talking about two or three hundred pounds worth of orders, which was two or three pounds in your pocket. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, ok, so the pound you could. You could go out and have a good evening. On a quid, could you? You could?
Speaker 3:We had. We had a. You could have a curry and a special brew for one pound.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, so you would be able to go out so that the stuff that was put into the Bangladeshi restaurants was was long lasting.
Speaker 3:It's high quality, high, very high quality flock golden, golden, red flock wallpaper very expensive, very, very good top quality and made the restaurant look wonderful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. And having talked about that bit of business to consumer, I would it be fair to say you spent most of your life, even though some of your products have got to consumers that you've spent most of your life in a business to business. Sales time, sales type capacity.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean subsequent to the wallpapers and advertising. And then I joined my father's business and we were selling to distributors, retailers, not to the public.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then eventually the public gets your product, but your daily business is encouraging other people to take it on Correct. We'll definitely get to that. So were any early sales lessons sinking in at Sanderson, or do you think this sort of sales career didn't kick in till advertising days?
Speaker 3:or Well, no, I think, I think you can't be a shrinking violet. If you want to be a sales person, I think you've got to be quite positive, you've got to be enthusiastic. I mean all of which you are to. Jeremy, it's all in the genes, isn't? It, I think, the Christy genes the Christy genes, are quite good, and my grandfather was a brilliant salesman. Your great-grandfather and my grandfather was a great salesman, my father was. So it's all coming down and I'd like to think my three boys are.
Speaker 2:Well, we're all in sales in a way. I mean, we're all selling something, whether we're selling a service, selling products large ones, small ones. Correct when somebody has to make the transition, because a lot of our work is trying to help people make the transition from being a salesperson. Suddenly you're given a team, you become a team leader and often you've done the same job as the people you're leading. So I'm wondering if you can remember the first team that you became a leader of and you had to make that transition, and what you learned in that kind of step up.
Speaker 3:Well, I wasn't really a team leader till I joined my father's company, but it was part of a team in advertising and I certainly wasn't a team leader. I had a secretary, which is very nice, and I was dependent upon creative people, media people and nothing, but I wasn't a team leader. My team leader was the manager or director, and the most important thing but if you become a team leader, is obviously to have great integrity and for your salespeople underneath you to trust you completely. Thank you, yeah, trust you. So. So if you make a boob, you want the support of your team leader. Yeah, you do, you really do, and that's the most important thing. I mean you've got to be. The customers have also got to trust you. Then they've got to respect you, they've got to admire for your integrity and that is everything.
Speaker 2:No, I mean this is the old joke is integrity is everything. If you can't fake that anymore, you're out of it. You then, as you say, you join Alexander Engineering that your father has started and you come up to running that company and that's quite challenging, not only as a family business, to take over from what your father's done. But I'm wondering what the challenges are of becoming an MD of a business. Having had the background you'd had in advertising, you then come into a automotive, you know motor factors type business.
Speaker 3:I mean the biggest problem. Most employers have probably two-fold staff the right people to do the right job, and then, if you're involved in products, choosing the right new products.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you had a lot of lines. I don't know how many lines you had.
Speaker 3:You were using lines all the time, which was wonderful. I loved it. I loved it. But the most important thing really is the staff, and if you haven't got the right staff for the right job, then you don't get anywhere.
Speaker 2:And you weren't in a city, you were in a large village. You were trying to recruit locally as much as possible. Yes, you had loyalty. I do remember, because I work with you in the holidays, that you operated the Poets system and so we could all clear off at lunchtime on a Friday. That's right, was that? Probably a very neat staff retention.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean, we decided that we'd reduce lunch hour by half an hour, which means you'd got two and a half hours extra per week. So we then stopped at one o'clock on a Friday. It was very, very beneficial. Everybody loved it. In fact, you could probably not that we did this. You could probably almost pay people less on the sort of four and a half day week like that, but it wasn't really a four and a half day week. It's been allowed people to have half an hour for lunch, but people were sitting at their benches or by just eating a sandwich. So you can do that in half an hour, can't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the things that lockdowns changed is people got out of the house more because they in a sense couldn't and we were getting stir crazy. I think taking a break is important, potentially leaving your desk, but no lovely. I guess you had people who could clear off for the weekend and not have to turn up to a Monday morning Very good.
Speaker 3:So people women could do their shopping, or the men could do the mow the lawn, or one of us. So by Friday evening everything was done for the weekend. It was great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lovely, shut, shut up shop. Talking of lines, because I remember my father telling me at Sanderson that there were again so many lines, so many styles of wallpaper and a new MD came in and he made a quite a brave decision to cut lots of lines of Sanderson that just didn't sell, or they'd sell one over a year. How did you make some of those decisions?
Speaker 3:And I know you were selling to people like Halford's and Well, I think if there's a rotten apple, if there's a bad one, you've got to actually set it off quickly, because there's no point in plugging up the warehouse. You've got to get rid of your bad lines and move on to the next one. I mean, you hope there won't be any, but they're all inevitably awesome bad lines.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what was one of your biggest hits that you think if we hadn't had this product, it would have been a duller business? What were some of the big hits of products that you think people listening now would think, gosh, why were people so excited about that?
Speaker 3:Well, I remember there was a German company selling a particularly special soft spongy steering wheel cover and we got the UK rights for that and that was fantastic. I signed a letter saying I would sell 10,000 in the first year, 20,000 in the second year and 30,000 in the third year. Well, we'd sold 70,000 within six months Wow, in the UK. And it was amazing and that was very successful. High margin, really good, and that was great. And then the other great thing which we did is go into car air fresheners in the early 90s and that was fantastic. We sold millions and millions of them. It was brilliant.
Speaker 2:That was that way. You did a licensing deal with Hannibal Barra cartoon characters.
Speaker 3:Licensing with Looney Tunes and with Sonic the Hedgehog and with people like that. It was one of quite hard work getting the licenses, but once you've got it you're off and the licenses.
Speaker 2:You pay them a flat percentage on everyone to have the character.
Speaker 3:I think we pay them 5%.
Speaker 2:Right and they do nothing for that. They just get a check.
Speaker 3:Well, they had the right. Certainly Sure, Sure.
Speaker 2:And Petrol Cairns. Was that quite good for a time?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we were making Petrol Cairns. That was very good and we made millions of them, millions quite literally and we became brand leaders in Scandinavia. Can you imagine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 3:And we sold huge quantities to Holland as well, and to France and, of course, in the UK.
Speaker 2:And now I suppose, do you think, because cars are made in such a more modern way, with less of our own tinkering in them, that business eventually got smaller.
Speaker 3:There's much, much less business on car parts and people to do DIY, Because, as you probably know, so many electronics in cars now that you can't really do it unless you have all the machinery to plug it in. So that side has gone. There's still business, good business on car accessories, I suppose roof racks, bike racks, all sorts of things like that, and then we'd probably air freshness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my daughter who's just passed. I know your granddaughter too. They seem to when they want to buy these smelly things to hang in the car, probably picking up other smelly youth. Do you think being a leader of a business is better than being a salesperson, or the very fact that you're still in sales now? Would you say you prefer being a salesperson and not a?
Speaker 3:leader. Well, if you're a salesperson and have respect for your sales leader, there's nothing wrong with that. That's great, as long as you know the leader was going to support you and give you opportunities and make your life tolerable. I mean, nothing is worse than working for somebody who you don't respect. So if you're a salesperson and have a good team leader, that's great. If you're a team leader and have good people under you, that's good too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a balancing act. It's your own destiny. I mean, I remember when I was in yellow pages and got my car, I just managed myself and I had a little bit of support and intervention and, as you said, I had the backup, but most of the time it was your own destiny and you were driving. I'm wondering if you think now of sweeping changes. So it's really interesting to hear about communication and this endless letters, because I think for people to imagine a typing pool, that's quite a strange thing that you might only see in a dramatization on television now to sort of take you back. But I'm wondering what are some of the sweeping changes that perhaps for the better? So you're sitting there now and you're going well, I've seen these changes and I think they're better, but also maybe some that you don't think are serving business, if you have any.
Speaker 3:The wonderful benefit of things like Google. I mean, when I had a job at Honda, I was made, I was in charge of the charge, I was called market research executive and I had to research new products for them and I was told to research generators for Honda. I was talking about 1968, 69. And there was no such thing as Google. So what I did mostly was to go and find trade magazines, look at all the advertisements and then the secret was ready to ring up the editor and say I'd like your advice Now editors. That was a great thing to do because they love people asking their advice. Now an editor of the trade magazine knows a lot about the trade, the manufacturers, everything that's happening, so that was a great source of information.
Speaker 2:They would give that freely and like to help you.
Speaker 3:It was a treat to have them up to lunch, which was good and they loved like that, and it was just very, very interesting and all the information about competitors and about the trade and about what was happening in the trade and progress and things they came tumbling out. It was brilliant. And now you've got Google so you can do your research sitting at your desk, aren't you? You can.
Speaker 2:I'm wondering if what you've just said for people listening is actually not something that could be reengaged with, because every industry still has trade magazines. That they're much thinner, they carry less advertising, yes, but still those editors are dedicated to the industry, aren't they? And they may have things to say.
Speaker 3:I think there'd be nothing wrong with trying to get to know or speak to editors of trade magazines or even consumer magazines in that particular sector, and they normally are very, very helpful. I'll never tell you to jump off the end of the pier, they're just very, very helpful, that's great.
Speaker 2:What about a change that you don't think has really helped business to motor, or is it mostly?
Speaker 3:been. I think the buyers have become more unreasonable. I mean, did you see in the paper that? I think I can't remember which retailer? Some could have been even Morrison's. Oh no, it was a fashion company. It asked all their suppliers for a 20% discount. Now that is just ridiculous. Buyers becoming more unreasonable. Tougher, there's probably very wide choice from manufacturers, so sometimes, unless you're a brand leader, they don't really mind if they do drop you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But that's tough.
Speaker 2:I mean you and I have talked, without mentioning names, that some retailers really are close to horrendous in some of their buying behaviors Unbelievable, unbelievable. I mean you and I have shared stories of dinners I've been to and suppliers have paid for everything and being mistreated and all that sort of thing. I have friends now who sell products to supermarkets and they seem to change buyer within six months. So they thought that they've got a relationship where they're supplying.
Speaker 3:That can often happen. Yeah, and I'll tell you a funny story. It's a true story and it doesn't matter to mention the company I used to sell to Woolworths, who now no longer exist, and there was a lovely buyer who I'd gone on very well. We did a lot of business with him. Then he retired, so a new buyer came in.
Speaker 3:So I had a new range of products which I went to see this man a good guy, but he was a new one and after quite a long meeting he agreed the terms for that product. Let's just say I was selling him for £5 net price, having given him a discount, right? So he said that's great, tim. Ok, so I'll be placing the first order to Nusset. Thank you very much. He said oh, by the way, I've got to tell you there are a few extra terms which you're going to ask from me. I said what do you mean terms? He said well, I'll tell you. We'll take 2 and 1 half percent discount for quick payment in 60 days. I mean 60 days, quick payment, 1 and 1 half percent discount for merchandising your product and 1% discount for being a new product. So on top of what I'd have really agreed, there was 4 and 1 half percent on top, we'd be taking off, and that's take it or leave it, or we would stop no negotiation.
Speaker 3:I said, well, this isn't exactly what we'd discussed. He said I know that there are new terms. Bum-bum, that was it. And doing it right at the end, at the end, after I agreed the prices yeah, can you believe it? It sounds like Maxwell, doesn't it? I didn't know that. I mean, I had to get on with it and then, eventually, then actually, they went bust, didn't they? They all ceased to be Karma.
Speaker 2:It was appalling, appalling. I mean maybe these things, as you say, integrity. Eventually karma will come around and get you if you've got poor behaviors of how you treat people and then it will get you. So you mentioned integrity as being vital. It's funny. We're writing a book at the moment called Disloyal Bonding, and the concept of disloyal bonding is where salespeople bond with customers by slagging off their own employer. It's not me, they choose these rates. I wish I could give you a discount.
Speaker 3:And that's appalling. That's very good.
Speaker 2:And actually it's quite common, especially with very large employers. You know, oh, I've got a rubbish system. I know how you feel. They don't do this. I'm wondering what other values are essential to a long and prosperous career, particularly in selling. I'm wondering what sort of other things you would say.
Speaker 3:If you look at, I mean, that man, john Allen, has now had to leave Tesco because he said something inappropriate to women. I mean, obviously you've got to behave yourself, haven't you? You've got to be respected. You don't want a black market against you from anybody to you. So honestly, I repeat it, jeremy Integrity and honesty and being straightforward, that's all you must ask for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe it isn't so complex. It's funny Quite a bit of you're talking about the Woolworth buyer. We're going through experiences now where we're dealing with procurement and we don't know any of these people and it all comes in a bit late and quite tricky it is, and what ultimately you want is a partnership that lasts. But I suppose world events, interest rates soaring, people get a bit itchy, get a bit worried and that affects some of their behavior.
Speaker 1:This is Bob and Jeremy's conflag. Bob and Jeremy are sales and management trainers and also executive coaches. If you're looking for some one-to-one coaching assistance, please make contact through our website, realitytrainingcom.
Speaker 2:So let's come to maybe Tim's guide of some of the things that you really should get clued up on. What should you really know about? You know, if you've got this nice position to be reflective, now where you're looking back on your career, I'm wondering what are the sort of top tips and lessons that you might share?
Speaker 3:Well, there are four things, four headings. I would suggest knowing your product or service, knowing your competitors' products or services, pricing in the sector in which you're operating, and handling difficult or unreasonable buyers. So, first of all, knowing your product. I mean you've got to know everything, everything about your product or service, the USP's unique selling propositions, that what you're doing on promotion have you got any advertising going on? Or promotional activity, display stands, merchandising Remember generally that marketing moves consumers to the product and merchandising moves the product to the consumers. Merchandising a display stand, shelf talkers and things like that, because you've got to be fully prepared to be asked this sort of question for a buyer. Give me three reasons, tim. No, give me five reasons, tim, why I should be buying your product, when you must never, ever, rubbish the competitor. You've got to be factual, you've got to be honest and you just actually have to answer those questions truthfully, because that's the sort of question which they could ask. Are you with me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am, I'm just thinking. You just said five. I'm thinking five reasons would be incredibly tough, Whereas you'd hope that you'd have one absolute golden USP.
Speaker 3:That would be enough, but maybe not Well for instance, a supermarket would love to hear your advertising on television, wouldn't it? That would be a reason for buying your product, wouldn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the consumers agenda up.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I mean, your packaging may be very high standard and better than anybody else. You can't say it's better than product A, b or C, but you can say look at our packaging, it really is high standard, it ticks all the boxes. So little things like that. So, moving on to knowing your competitors, once again, you see, you might be asked by a buyer now you know, tim, that I'm buying products A, b and C from who they are. I said yes, of course. So tell me, how do you compare with those ones? Now, once again, you've got to be truthful and you mustn't rubbish the competitors. But you've got to be prepared for that. Are you with me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am. Are you saying, do you almost have to say they're particularly good at this?
Speaker 3:Well, nothing wrong with saying, well, of course, product A has got this, and saying but I'd like to say that we've got this. I mean, you've got to know all your competitors, strengths and weaknesses. You've got to know their USPs, you've got to know their promotional activities, You've got to know their distribution channels. You've got to know their price structures, you've got to know their discount structures and everything. Because if you don't know about your competitors, how are you able to answer those questions from a potential buyer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, in a sense, you might have done as much or even more of the work than they have. Absolutely yeah, that's great, yeah, lovely.
Speaker 3:And the pricing thing is so important, you've got to know all about the pricing in the sector which you're operating. I know that's an obvious thing to say, but it's amazing how many people go into businesses that fully understand the discount structures and pricing structures in that particular sector.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and knowing at what point the next discount can kick in. You were talking about your deal with the German manufacturer of the steering wheel cover, yes, or that you were the UK distributor of that? Yeah, it is steeped in your conditions of 10,000 sold year 1, 20,000, year 2, 30. Would there have been a higher leverage for you as you reach those points?
Speaker 3:I suppose I think he gave me a set price, but I must say he kept full all the time. So that was very good. And we were actually then manufacturing and we were buying the product. We were manufacturing it in Hadnum.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, once again with pricing. I mean, some people tell you about a turnover rebate after you've agreed the price, so that's pretty sneaky too.
Speaker 2:Gosh, I mean, I remember doing that for you when I worked in the Purchase Ledger Room and I'd find payments going to retailers of contributions and rebates, and I remember coming to see you, going is this right? And you're explaining it to me. Yeah, contributions and all these sort of things. Absolutely, it can ruin your intelligence. I often think that one thing salespeople don't get in their heads is if I'm selling you a product for £30 and someone else is selling it for £25, my job is to sell the difference of the five. Why is ours worth the £5 difference, not the 30. I spend quite a lot of time doing that with salespeople where they say that these people are less than us and I say, well, how much less? And they might say 10% or £5. Right, I say, well, let's work very hard on why you're worth £5. Not 30. You don't have to worry about the full figure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very good.
Speaker 2:That kind of fries their mind a bit. That's very good. I remember when the Dyson Airblade came onto the market, the hand-drying device.
Speaker 3:Very expensive.
Speaker 2:Well, they were £800, whereas the standard World Dryer was £100.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And so you're bringing an £800 product into a £100 marketplace. Yes, and I remember. The story I heard, which I think you'd find quite amusing, is when James Dyson launched it at a hotel. He invited all of the companies, like PHS, dalkia, those companies that put mats into washrooms. Sure, sure, they were all invited in. And I think at the break time some of the directors came up and said my guys are good, but they're just not this good. We won't be able to sell them, we can't do this. But then I think one company stayed behind and worked out exactly why it was worth the eight times more, because it was eight to one, but your electricity cost saving was enormous.
Speaker 3:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Well, if it takes 10 seconds to dry your hands and the other one took 45 seconds, sure, sure, and you had one in a contact centre. You'd have people back on the phones much quicker and you'd sell more drinks at the hotel bar, the wedding reception venue, there was a lot of mats in bulk. Is that your final area on the price, or did you have another section Dealing with difficult?
Speaker 3:unreasonable buyers. Yes, often an unreasonable or difficult buyer will want to just give you a lecture about life. You're just going to sit there. You've got to be a good listener.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Bite your tongue and don't upset him or annoy him, because it's a true saying that people like doing business with people they like. So even if he or she is unlikable, make yourself likable, because it may change his spots. Yeah, true. And don't forget too that that difficult buyer may move on to become a buying director or purchasing manager of your best client, so you don't have to fall out with him, do you no?
Speaker 3:exactly not, that happened to me. A very tough buyer of the wholesale Lamborghini, a cash and carry moved on to become the buyer at Asda who we were selling to. So that was quite a shock but I never fell out with him. But I must say he was a tough, tough guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Certain characters, aren't they? Certain type. I was talking to this lovely builder who helped us do some work and he came around the other day as he's going to help us do something else, and he was saying he looked, he looked worn out. I said are you okay, Anthony? He said, well, I've taken rather a lot of flack today and he said it's taken me this long to work out. Really, I just let my customers moan at me. They get it all out of their system. Sometimes I want to say to them well, look, F, you, we're clearing the site, we're leaving, but I know I won't get paid.
Speaker 2:I have to just let these customers offload their fury at him, and it could be something so slight that the brickwork they thought was running at a different course, or one tradesman left his cigarette on the pavement outside, or you know, they can be small things but to the customers huge things the balancing act of marriage, children, all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:I know that you've made time always to and you're still pretty good at blocking in time when you go off and see friends and you've kept very active. I think I'm almost giving away some of the things, but from my perspective you've been quite good at doing some physical things like attacking the garden and walking and hitting golf balls. What would you say to people as some of the balancing act secrets?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the most talking about children, and I'm sure I was a bit guilty of not being a great dad and spending time. The most valuable thing you can give to your children is your time. That is absolutely no doubt about it, and when I was building up the business at Alexander, I probably was working very long hours and maybe I wasn't spending the time I should have done with my children. I hope I've made up for that since, but that is definitely a fact of life. You've got to spend time with your children. Yeah, you can.
Speaker 2:No, indeed no. I've been lucky with having my own thing, that I've been able to do all the school runs and that sort of thing, more than my wife is a teacher who had to be in school earlier, absolutely, and she has all these long holidays with them, so that's been good. Any kind of final words that you would say on what you think people might need to watch out for or stay true to, or any other hot tips?
Speaker 3:I think if you're a salesperson I mean, I work for this, for the, this big engineering company, and I'm always positive the talent is like the fact that I'm positive and enthusiastic, and there's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic, is there?
Speaker 2:No, I love the word enthusiasm and Zig Ziglar used to say the last letters of that e-asm stand for I am sold myself, e-asm, I'm sold myself. No, enthusiasm goes a long way. You're transferring a feeling to people. Lots of people are negative and I think all during lockdown I'd go on zooms and see some miserable postage stamp faces. Your attitude very much is your altitude. I do believe that.
Speaker 3:Very much so. Pma Jeremy positive mental attitude. Pma.
Speaker 2:Yep, you're in the PMA club, aren't you? Well, look, thank you so much, tim. That's been lovely, lots of lovely insights, and who knows, it might be retirement kicking in at 81, but if all these deals kick in, you might, you might carry on, I might I might have to play it by ear. Well, thank you very much. Ok, jeremy.
Speaker 3:I hope it's been helpful. It's been glorious.
Speaker 1:Bob and Jeremy's Conflapp the Reality Podcast.