43. How to Give Less F***s About Dating and Marriage & Find Your Own Happiness ft. Justine Ang Fonte

Justine shares stories of telling her Catholic Filipino parents about dating a black man, potentially not getting married, and potentially not having kids - even though she wants 4 of them. We explore why women tend to choose “fixer-uppers”, and why we are fixated on romantic relationships to bring us happiness. She's a recovering people pleaser, avid baker, and sex educator in New York City.

“Why are we giving so much credit to that one thing, one place, one person, to give us happiness” - Justine Ang Fonte

Find Justine:

Website: https://www.justinefonte.com/
Instagram @imjustineaf

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Transcript

Kristy Yee: 0:00

In today's episode, we have Justine Ang Fante, a raised Catholic Filipino. And we talk about how the definition of dating love and marriage conflicts with our Asian immigrant parents, specifically dating someone to appease our parents racism, in interracial relationships, our sexuality, the choice of having kids or no kids, and how all of this is related to decolonization Welcome back to another episode. Today. We have Justine Ang Fante, who is a sex educator, specializing in intersectional health. She is a Filipina American who lives in New York city, loves to bake and loves to share what she bakes with all her friends and neighbors and people, and just spread love that way. Something that Justine really would like to talk more about is being comfortable with her sexuality, but also how our sexuality can sometimes conflict with our Asian immigrant parents, assimulations. And that is something I feel like I can relate to a lot as a fellow Asian American, Asian Canadian person who is educated in Western culture. And more open about sexuality, but when you come home, then that door gets closed and we just do not talk about sex. So I'm really curious to hear from your perspective, Justine, like what are your thoughts on how our sexuality conflicts with our Asian immigrant parents?

Justine Ang Fonte: 1:54

Well, specifically around like what marriage and family expectations are. I think that the expectation as an Asian girl daughter in an Asian family is that you propagate your family's gene pool with other little Asian babies. And that expectation is set at a really early age where they are group really teaching you and raising you right from the get, go to be. Someone that is a caretaker and to prioritize somebody else's needs over your own. And that gender role aspect definitely starts to define your own identity at an early age. Even if it's not something you plan on doing or want to do. and then just the lack of communication around, sexual health is something that I think a lot of people, become ill informed when the stakes are higher and they're left with trying to just figure it out because it's not something their parents talked to them about or did. So in a way that was loving and nurturing and more so punitive, if you had messed up or someone in your family had quote, messed up and then them telling you this won't happen to you because we're supposed to be perfect. And there's only shame attached to something that was unplanned, or not meeting, you know, what we expect from you. There's not a lot of communication about, you know, sex and sexuality. and then there's an expectation that after, you know, not having had any romantic partners until you're finished with that school, it's supposed to just pop out grandchildren for them ASAP without ever having had a conversation as to what a healthy relationship looks like, that you can date in high school and not, you know, flunk out of class. And so there's, a really a struggle, I think for a lot of, you know, kids of, Asian immigrants where they don't know how to navigate the dating world, because it's not something that was openly talked about or, normalized as, you know, as teenagers. And then we're expected to just be like rabbits producing all the grandchildren, when there wasn't really any, practice prior.

Kristy Yee: 4:04

I hate all of that because. growing up, I've never had any quote, unquote sex talk from my parents. By the time I got to high school and then, you know, having crushes on boys, wanting to date, then of course it's no, you cannot date until you have finished all your education. And then we'll talk about it And so zero sex talks, zero talks about dating zero talks about how to have a healthy relationship, but what is dating and some parts of it. I don't blame my parents because at least my parents, they didn't date. They also just listened to their parents as well. Their parents pick their spouses and they're like, yeah, you guys are going to get married and bust out some babies. And, and so that's all they know, and they pass that down to me. So they wouldn't even know how to give me dating advice. But what I find really frustrating is. The moment you get out of school. When are you going to get married? Where are you going to have kids? Where are my grandkids? Like you ain't getting any younger,

Justine Ang Fonte: 5:02

yeah, you're not alone.

Angie Yu: 5:04

I am a little bit more fortunate in the sense that when my parents immigrated to Canada, my mom decided to go into early childhood education. And through that program, she picked up a lot of more Western upbringing. methods. So she, she knows that like, Hey, everything needs to be like positive reinforcement. you need to be open-minded with your kids, et cetera, et cetera. So she has been a lot more exposed to this type of stuff. And she works at a pretty good, preschool, basically it's, it's, almost government funded program. And so she gets, she goes to all these workshops about a lot of topics that are, you know, currently, at the top of people's mind, for example, like homosexuality or trans people. So this is something that she was obviously was never, ever exposed to and because of the environment that she works in, she's a lot more open-minded. So I have. Had the fortune of seeing her mind being transformed as well, because she did used to be, a little bit homophobic as most immigrant parents are or still, yeah, we're we're are. but the funny thing is, even though my mom is very open-minded in that regard, I can see in her behavior and things that she says to me that there's still a lot of conflict for her. So after the end of my last relationship, my mom was very, open-minded like, you know, like you don't really need to get married. you don't need to have children to be happy in this life. I just want you to be happy. But now that I'm in a relationship, she starting to kind of push for grandchildren again. so it's kind of funny for me to see that too, because it just, I see so much conflict within her as well, even though she has been exposed to this education and I feel, I see that conflict in myself as. Yeah. So, you know, like it's really hard for us to unlearn that. And Justine, you mentioned that, you know, you grew up in a Filipino family, like you have all this, culture instilled in you, have you ever seen a conflict arise in your, in what you do now and how you were raised?

Justine Ang Fonte: 7:06

Every day, I'm not just Filipino, but I was raised Catholic and I am a full-time sex educator. All of those things, do not get along. And the number one opposition in my career is the Roman Catholic church, right? When it comes to homosexuality, when it comes to marriage, when it comes to, marriage first, before you can have kids, when it comes to reproductive rights, right? All of this is completely contrary to how I was raised. and what I now teach in classrooms and, you know, on stages is very contrary to that upbringing. So I'm constantly in conflict with, how I was raised. And now what I am raising younger generations to buy into.

Kristy Yee: 7:57

How did you get to. Where you are now from where you had come from, in terms of your understanding of what dating is, what love is with marriages, what babies are about sex, and then to where you stand now, educating younger folks and speaking about sexuality in a very open way.

Justine Ang Fonte: 8:18

I don't know if it was really, I a moment, but I think it's a combination of my experiences, both personally and professionally, that really reaffirmed that I'm in the right place doing the right thing. So on the professional. Vain. I had been a sex educator as a high school senior for my last year of high school, kind of as a volunteer service learning project. and so that was like my real first introduction to what sex ed even was. And I was teaching things that I was never taught, you know, in middle school or high school. and then I had pursued, a master's in education. So I was working in a school, as a seventh and eighth grade math teacher and I had pregnant middle-schoolers. So I saw a direct connection to how they're health was something infringing on their academic achievement. So then that connection was made continued on to get the master's in public health, with a specialization in sexuality. And I had done my practicum in the Philippines where my family is from doing an investigation on how their first year of the department of education sex ed pilot was doing. It was quite abstinence only. Based kind of sex ed. and I was seeing its direct impact to why there are 80 students in one classroom with one teacher and why families were trying to figure out how to stay afloat in buying a sufficient number of bags of rice for the four extra children they never planned on having. So now there's eight of them. So I started to see like how economy education was being impacted by family planning, not being something normalized or taught early on. and then in my actual classroom and own experiences, professionally teaching, I'm seeing how much of an impact. Is in the prevention of a lot of these things with my students in New York city, with students that I'm teaching in the U S and how understanding their authentic self, beyond them as a sexual being also means their sexuality and their gender identity and being their authentic self, being so liberating as something that they can be in sixth grade already, as opposed to waiting until they're an adults getting divorced, because they have just learned or just realized or come into their own that it was okay to be gay. And so being able to really dismantle those oppressions in classroom settings with young populations is a really powerful affirming. I had paired all of that professional background with my personal dating experiences. My first romantic partner was, when I was a junior in high school, but I didn't tell my parents that he was my boyfriend for the first year of dating. and what was actually helpful about that lie was that by the second year, when I decided I was going to tell them, I've actually been dating him for a year, my parents still busted out the same rebuttals that they probably would have said when I just started dating him. Well, what's going to happen with your studies. What's going to happen with your tennis, how are you going to be able to focus? And I said, well, if you take a look at the last 365 days, studies in tennis have not been compromised, right. Like I have evidence here and then were like, oh, oh, she's really. But she can't say that out loud. Right? My mom can't say that out loud. So, you know, it was something hard. It was really hard for my parents to grapple with the fact that like, oh, I'm coming into adulthood and this is something that's natural for our daughter, but they're still thinking that this is only bad and leads to a tattoo, riding a motorcycle and shooting up heroin. And you know, that is not the case and getting pregnant while you're doing all of that and then also getting pregnant. Right. and so it was really hard for them to accept that I had, you know, that I am, you know, someone that can fall in love that can be loved by someone outside of a family member. but I understand that it's all rooted in safety. They're afraid that, you know, if I lose focus on the things that have helped them survive as an immigrant in the United States, I'm going to have a hard time and all they've ever wanted is for me to have a life path that is much easier than what they had to endure. So I get it. And then, you know, as I'm dating, you know, then they became used to the fact that, oh, okay. So after that relationship, she might have another relationship. And this is all before, you know, a master's program is complete or a medical degree is complete. And that is now a reality for us as parents of just and Fox. and so all of that was interesting. And then I came across, my first boyfriend who was white, the first two were Asian. and it was a really healthy, long five-year relationship. And I had noticed how happy my parents were in this relationship. and I figured because it was a happy relationship. I, that I. But I had noticed comments from aunties and other family members that stemmed around how beautiful our children would look because of how Mr. Lisa or Misty. So they would be with being lighter skin and having a sharper nose. And these were things that I'd always known about, like the Filipino stereotype and comics that I, you know, followed and listened to. and I just figured this is just something in general that is that they just believe, but I didn't really connect it to racism yet until a couple of boyfriends. After that, I started dating a black man and I saw their complete opposite reaction despite how healthy my relationship was. And again, it was rooted in a I'm scared for your safety. It's not that you know, I don't like him. But I don't want their problems to now become our family's problems. And that was an interesting way of looking at what that racism is, because sure you can vote for Obama and you can be fine with my black roommate, but when it starts to enter potentially your gene pool and it now becomes your family, that's a responsibility that the ally ship stops at. And that was super interesting to me. Cause that's when I directly saw how opposite they reacted to my white boyfriend and how they're reacting to this black boyfriend. And after that relationship ended for, you know, reasons that that had nothing to do with my parents, the boyfriend, after that also happens to be black. And I felt that my family reacted even stronger in anger because they felt that. I should have learned my lesson quote the first time. And here I was now just on purpose disobeying, the family values. Of protection and that was super hurtful and really, a revelation and understanding where all this was coming from. And it was also the beginning of like my own decolonization work that I had started to do in my own Philippina community. So it wasn't just like a, oh, we want lighter skin it's that we don't want this to be a part of us because their problems then become our problems. And that's when I started making sense of anti-blackness in the Filipino community, I was always aware of anti indigenous, you know, feelings in the Filipino community. But now just adding onto that as I was getting older, you know, in my mid twenties, and absorbing all of this while I'm teaching about, you know, beauty standards in my own sex ed classroom and sexuality in those classrooms, seeing like how those same colonial mentality. Are infiltrating my own personal life. So that's how I came to where I'm at in, you know, understanding sexuality and the way that I do and making sense of my own lived reality as a dating person. and the consequences or ramifications. If I bring that news home to my family who might not be educated in the same way that I have been.

Kristy Yee: 16:27

Wow, holy shit.

Angie Yu: 16:30

Like one, absolutely. I can hear the passion in everything you say, and you are very eloquent. So, you know, ladies and gentlemen, Justine really knows what she's talking about. Go check her out. If you haven't already. I like, for me, that's a lot to process. and it seems like you have reached a point of kind of acceptance that this family. Is the way they are and you're just going to have to work around that. Is that right?

Justine Ang Fonte: 16:55

Yeah. you know, Hasan Minhaj has this one phrase that I've thought of. So often since his homecoming king special came out about the number of cards you're dealt with, that you, that are worth fighting for in your, with your immigrant family. And so, you know, I could go home and complain about how I have to go to church with them again, because it's the holidays and it's around also my birthday. And when the Catholic church, there are so many times you're expected to go to mass during the Christmas season. And my birthday is December 30th and you're supposed to go to mass on your birthday. So I'm just going to church a lot whenever I'm home in December. And I could make a whole thing of it, about where I'm at with my Catholic faith, that doesn't necessitate needing to go to a building to worship. and I could do that every single time. But I also know that I am going to stand strong with who I fall in love with, and that's going to be a very big fight, potentially. There's going to be a big fight about how I want to raise my kids if I have kids. And that's more, those are fights that I want to preserve my energy for than wasting it on a it's an hour in mass with my parents. And it makes them so happy. And the amount of happiness that it gives them is something that's so outweighs. The irritability I'll have for those 60 minutes, this isn't the card I'm going to actually play right now. This isn't the one I'm going to send a, save it for the bigger ones. Save it for the bigger ones on who you're going to marry. If you marry how you're going to raise your kids, what type of, you know, religion you may or may not, you know, take on, like, those are the bigger ones. And I'm thinking to senior only get five cards. Don't waste it on the 60 minutes that you can tolerate. But there are other things I won't be able to tolerate and I'm saving it for them

Kristy Yee: 18:48

that pick your battles and choose the ones that you're really going to give a shit about because going to mass, if it's going to appease them and it doesn't really hurt me that much, whatever, I'll go to mass to make you feel happy. But the shit that you're not going to stand for is how you're going to raise your kids. What religion, who you're gonna marry, how the wedding is going to be all these, all these decisions that you are not going to pivot for, pick those as your battles. Have you had a battle yet with family members about any of these big ticketed five card items?

Justine Ang Fonte: 19:24

no, because I have not yet been, you know, engaged. I have not yet been pregnant. so those cards are still, you know, waiting in their, in their safe, have not been unlocked yet or used, but there was, an, I came out to my parents about one thing that falls under that realm that, I was pleasantly really, surprised and grateful for how my mom reacted. And then what she told me, my dad said after she shared it, and that was basically telling them that I may not even get married and I'm okay with that. I'm asking that you will be okay with that too. and I expected that to be something bigger. And of course there was a little, you know, pushback, and was like, yeah, but then how will you, but then, but then what if you want to have kids and you don't have a man? And I said, well, I have a sperm bank that I could like look into, but you won't know them. I was like, well, I will do my due diligence. Just, I ha as I I've always been a good student, mom trained me to be a good student. I will do all of my research to make sure that I, you know, find that too. And even if I were to know the man love the man date, the man for five years, that doesn't guarantee that he's going to be a good husband, a good father, or be the same person that I knew him for prior to becoming a father. And we unfortunately have enough bad statistics in our own family to prove that marriages don't stay. a marriage for a variety of different reasons. And so, you know, I think she felt that I was right, but was sad that I was right. And then she really just paused for a bit and said, you know, of course I want to have grandchildren. And I would think that that is something that would make you happy. But if you're starting to realize now, you know that it may not be something that could make you happy, or you're open to the idea that you can still have a full fulfilled, valid life without it. Then I have to be happy for it. I want you to make a choice and I've trust. I trust you with all of the different decisions you've made in your, in your life. That it's, it's a choice that's been well thought out. and so I was like driving with my mom saying all this and like tearing up and like, whoa, did my mom just pull, you know, an Angie Parentline on. I just want you to be happy because that's not a typical, you know, Asian immigrant line. because they may say this until you're dating a black man, even if you're happy. Right. and so when they, my mom said this, I was like, okay. And then the next day she told me in the morning, I told her Papa what you said to me last night in the car. And I was like, and then my mom said, well, and he said, you know, Justine is a very thoughtful person and, you know, she makes good joyous choices. And if this is something, if that's something that, you know, she can feel happy about still too, then we have to just support her. She's an adults. And so that's been a big. Change in an effect for my parents around, around this, this stuff. And so that's been really a gift. So when you first, reached out to me, Kristy about, you know, what do you want to talk about? I'm like, well, what is shit? I haven't told my mom. And it, it was that, that I wrote into the Google form and then I went home for the holidays and I said, or I can just tell my mom this shit now. And it was hard. But then I said, oh, well, is this going to be a relevant episode? Because I already did the thing that I wasn't supposed to share yet, but I thought about it a lot. And so, you know, it was really a blessing to hear them receive it in that way. because, you know, I froze my eggs and I was a little concerned that they wouldn't be comfortable with that. You know, science and Catholicism don't always always apply. and yet they were totally great about it. And I think it's because they saw how, like how much foresight I was applying here. you know, my type a Capricorn self was on full blast with, you know, wanting to plan for something I may not need that costs 16 freaking thousand dollars, but was worth an important investment in my future and maybe my family's future. and so they were all about it. and so I was really surprised, but I joke to friends that, you know, for Asian immigrants, Catholic immigrant parents, you know, it's like telling them. That they have guaranteed grandchildren without intercourse. So of course we're going to be okay with this. but you know, they were really great about it. And, you know, having, you know, eggs on ice is like something that has taken definitely a lot of pressure off, but it's, what's allowed me to really step into the idea that maybe not being married or maybe not having kids, or maybe not being married with kids can be a very viable and valid option for me that still conjures the same level of happiness. If I were to be married with kids, which was a goal I had for 35 years up until very recently. And so sitting with that has really helped me to just feel more at ease if I'm on the dating apps and just like, just be living life for myself and not in search of something that is going to make me more complete. but I'm really finding that, you know, let's hang out with yourself, see if you like her. And if you do. Then that should be enough. And if something else comes along, that's icing on the cake, but it's not the cake.

Kristy Yee: 24:52

Yes, yes. To all of that. what I'm actually hearing is, you had shit that you haven't told mom, and it's been carrying around with you for a while. And then when you decided to tell mom, yeah, it's really fucking scary because you have these expectations of how they're going to respond. You had an expectation of how mom was going to react, how Papa's going to react. And, you know, we have this innate reaction to want to protect ourselves too. So we don't want to get shit from our parents. So we're just not going to tell them, but it's also so liberating and sometimes they might surprise you. And because you have stated your case, you have earned their trust. From all of the decisions that you have ever made in your life. And you're able to show and say, Hey, I am a smart woman. I have done all of these things. I haven't fucked up yet, basically. And th these are my choices. These are what I'm thinking about right now. And I want to share this with you because I respect you and you're my parents. And you should probably know. And they took it a lot better than how we might think they would in our own heads. That, to me, sounds like it's, it's building another level of relationship with your parents. Totally

Angie Yu: 26:05

So I have from perspective, like I'm so happy that you ended up going home and telling your parents that because. Like, I almost teared up hearing that because to have that moment with your parents, like, I have been through something similar as well, where I really held something back from telling my parents. And when I actually did, like, they also surprised me. but also just from what you were saying earlier about how, you know, you chose the five cards for yourself. You want to leave the other battles, just, you know, that's almost like an emotional labor for your parents, right? Cause you don't want them to go through that. And that shows a lot of love and how much your parents want to protect you from this world is also a lot of love. So in your stories, I feel a lot of love coming from that. So because of that, like, I wasn't as surprised by their reaction, you know? I can sense the love that your family and how much love they raised you with, and especially seeing what you're doing now for the world. Like, again, that's more love, right? So I just wanted to inject that little machinists in there because that's what I'm feeling from listening to your story. So thank you for sharing that.

Justine Ang Fonte: 27:16

Well, thank you for that perspective, Angie you're right. you know, I, cause I think cause when I was, when I was dating, that first black boyfriend, what I had realized in that process was how unhappy my parents were, which then tainted my happiness with my boyfriend. And I didn't like that.

27:34

My parents' happiness was determined based on me, obeying them, even if it meant me not being happy, I really wanted them to be separate things. And you know, the respective party gets the therapy. They need to like regain happiness. I also knew that. It was unlikely that therapy was going to be had on the other end. So it was like a, what can I control?

Justine Ang Fonte: 28:00

And if they're unhappy, I have to learn to sit with that unhappiness. If it means I am doing, what's actually a right and authentic with my, for myself. So then I just get the therapy. I need to sit with that tension and that is how it's going to be. But I was really convinced that, you know, after I'd ended it with him, that now, like when I'm swiping and when I'm, you know, starting to date, am I dating for my parents? So that it's just going to be easier for them because I love them so much as Angie was saying. And it was interesting because after those two men, I had dated a Filipino Catholic church going finance job. And I was like, okay, he's good enough. For, I think my parents on paper and he seems really great for me, what a great match. And we dated for a long enough time for me to realize that over time I actually was dating him for my parents. I was putting a lot of things under the rug for, you know, the two and a half years we were together. And it wasn't really, until I broke up with him, that my therapist asked me, when do you think you had that first seed planted? That it probably wasn't a good match. And I was thinking and thinking, and I realized it was about six months in and yet I was with him and lived with him and did couples therapy with him for two years after that seed was already there. But why didn't I listen to that seed? And it's because I kept thinking he's good enough for mom and pop and I can fix this word in couples therapy. It's going to get. He's coachable enough and that's not the way to date someone, right? They're not a fixer-upper you want the whole thing to be pretty much there for the most part, but I realized that I endured it and it was so hopeful because I saw how happy my parents were with me being with a Filipino investment banker who went to church on Sundays, on his own volition. And, you know, my parents were happy that, you know, I'd found someone that I think they had always wanted me to be with. And that's when I, when I broke up with him, they were totally good. They were like, oh, I can't believe that that happened. Or he said that, or he did that, or he didn't do that or whatever. And they were totally great and, you know, caring, but it was so ingrained in me with the other relationships I'd had about how unhappy they were that seeing their happy. It's something, you know, that is great, but can't be the reason I stay. and so it's just been, it's been a battle in recognizing, you know, my parents are in their seventies and yes, I want them to be able to maximize quality time with me that isn't fighting all the time about, you know, how different we are. but also not compromising my own values and my own boundaries, for them. And that's a tricky thing to reconcile and I'm always still working through it. so that's why I've come to the, you know, pick your battles. How many cards do you have, how much energy is going to take for you to do this thing you'd rather not do, but you'll do it anyway because what's more important is saving that energy for the bigger things, but, you know, two and a half years to date someone for not yourself, A huge undertaking. but I learned a lot from it about myself, about my relationship with my parents, and you know, what my needs are, but that's a hard lesson to learn. And in that way,

Kristy Yee: 31:52

first of all, I'm just running through a mental checklist of all the things and decisions that I have ever made. And even ones that I am in right now, am I doing them for me or am I doing them for other people? And I think a lot of our listeners listening to this episode right now are probably having thinking about their own decision making process. And considering was that really for me? Or is it because this checkbox that has been ingrained in us for so long. We end up internalizing it and thinking that that is what we want when really it's not. And it can be so exhausting because that means you're not living your own authentic life. And it's not easy to differentiate that because these lessons have been so ingrained. We think this is what we want. And it's hard to tease out, is it what I want? Or is it because I'm told that's what I want.

Justine Ang Fonte: 32:53

Yup. Struggle's

Kristy Yee: 32:57

real. The other thing that you also said was we shouldn't be dating fixer uppers, and I don't know where we learn that from, but I find thinking about my own past relationships, I think I do go for fixer uppers thinking that, okay, they have checked all of these boxes. The other things I will just ignore, I will just ignore, sweep them under a rug. plus the honeymoon stage kind of glosses things over anyways. And then once you get past that honeymoon stage, then you're like, okay, well then all those other things that I was ignoring and sweeping underneath the rug, I probably shouldn't ignore them anymore, but I can fix them. I can fix them because we can go to couples therapy because we, we will talk about these things because I believe so strongly in this relationship that I think we can do this. And. And then it ends up being like a task on you, but it's not really a together thing. You know what I mean? I'm not saying people cannot fix their relationships. I'm saying a lot of times, one party does a lot more heavy lifting than the other thinking that that is their responsibility. Yeah.

Justine Ang Fonte: 33:59

And in heterosexual relationships, a lot of times the onus is on the woman because of how socialized she has been to caregive, caretake accommodate and not prioritize her needs over somebody else's. So we tend to stomach a lot of these things and, you know, it's, it's, it's always frustrates me when people say, when they find out like the sex of the baby that they're about to have and be like, oh, so good. You're having a boy. They're much easier to raise. Why are they much easier? Because girls fucking fixed everything for any of the problems they creates. That's what. Girls are more difficult because we are built to actually fix humans problems. And most of those humans have a penis

Angie Yu: 34:49

yeah. Actually I remember a friend who said, do girls really mature faster? Or is it just because we're not allowed to get away with as much shit as men are, right.

Justine Ang Fonte: 34:59

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. We are more complicated humans because of the amount of work and the burden that is expected for us to put out there, to fix world's problems and be okay. Not taking credit for it because we were expected to do it in the beginning. So that whole like boys will be boys is because we don't expect boys to be able to do anything better than fuck up. And then we come in and clean it up girls to fix it. Right. So like the whole gender roles thing. If we go back to like, how does like sexuality, you know, intersect with, you know, my identity and my experiences it's like, where does it not

Kristy Yee: 35:41

you're right. Where does it not because so much of that learning about what a woman's role is in society comes from our parents, but also comes from all those other places where we learn shit, like from school, from friends, from media, from books we read characters that we get to know. Right. We see that. And then we emulate that and then we internalize it. We think that that should be our place or our identity or our responsibility when really it's really fucking exhausting. Yeah. I want to go back to. Racism because I find in the Chinese community, it's, it's still very pervasive. And I know there's a lot of work done to unlearn. I'm curious to know. Have you had a difficult conversation with your parents when you were dating your black X's and you saw how different they reacted, you saw how the aunties had reacted. Did you ever confront them about it?

Justine Ang Fonte: 36:49

I did. more than once it was, it was definitely the biggest strain I've ever had, between my parents. And we're very tight where like the FA I'm my relationship with my parents is like there's texting every day. And if there isn't a call every other day, I get guilt trips for not having called the day before. So, but you know, it's, it's never feels obligatory. It's like, I always just want to share with my mom, like what I'm going to cook that evening and tell my dad about the newest gig offer I got for some job or something. And so it's, you know, it's, it's a very comfortable, level of communication. but it's also become like this expectation now. And so when you know, these relationships were happening, there were months of no communication whatsoever. There were, you know, phones that were hung up on in the middle of conversations. and you know, there was. There were a lot of discrepancies in how we talked about this with a lot of it rooted in, I fear for your safety. We've worked so hard to get you to a position in your life where you don't have to struggle like we had. And I don't want that to, you know, I don't want any of that ease to now be retracted because of a burden you will start to share with someone who's, you know, life has been systemically set up to not be easy. and I don't want you to have to take that on. So they, you know, they believe that they don't deserve that, but they don't want to make that become their problem. Even if they're doing some types of work on the outside to try to fix it on, you know, a much more macro scale, pick the easier path is basically the, was the parenting advice. And this is not the easiest. So why, why are you doing this? And your choice is going to affect everyone, not just you and your immediate family that you're choosing to possibly create with him.

Kristy Yee: 38:44

Wow. I think so much of that sounds it's again, it's what Angie said. It's, it's coming from a place of love. It's coming from a place of protection. They have built this life immigrating to America so that their offsprings can have a better life so that it's not, it's not as hard as it was for them. And I think every single immigrant family has a similar story. That's why they immigrated. And any disruption to that safety net that's really uncomfortable. Did you ever get to a place where you were able to convince your parents that it's okay. To be dating a black man?

Justine Ang Fonte: 39:24

No, I was successful in with other isms, and you know, phobic things that, you know, they, they have, taken on. And so that's why I was so determined to be able to try to do the same with this, issue. And, and I wasn't. And so I'm always still concerned that, you know, if I end up in a similar position, what that conversation is going to be like, or if maybe they've come around by that point, you know, this was many, these were, this was many years ago already. but you know, rocking the boat when you have the privilege of being so adjacent to whiteness is super hard to, to allow. and so I get it, but that's not something I know I want to perpetuate. and that's not something that my parents who have worked so hard to assimilate want to give up, and that's just something we're always going to agree to disagree on. I understand why, and I love them for the things that they are offering me, which is more than not, to be happy and successful. And then there's this one small sliver that we'll never agree on. And that's why I have an amazing therapist to be able to just sit with that and be okay with that sliver, not outweighing the, you know, the other wonderful aspects of our relationship.

Kristy Yee: 40:48

Yep. I don't let that sliver cloud everything else up. And it almost goes back to the first takeaway was pick your battles and. Agreeing to disagree and then move on from that. And if the conversation needs to come up again, later in the future, it might go in a different direction. We don't know. Right? Like, like we just mentioned earlier, sometimes when we have difficult conversations, we already have this expectation of how another person's going to react. Maybe it, it will be different and maybe it won't, but when that time comes, then that's maybe that's when you decide to take out one of those five cards and, and then we'll go from there.

Justine Ang Fonte: 41:28

Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 42:28

So Angie and I are in our early thirties right now, we are at a place where we think about having kids because that's what is expected of us. So we, we think like that is what we want as well. And then we also think about not having kids and. I have been upfront about being on team, no kid for a really long time, as I'm getting older, I feel like, am I so strongly on the team? No kid. Angie has started out as team pro. Yeah. I want kids period. Very strong about that. And then now she's starting to, you know, consider not having kids. So basically we were on polar opposites and, and now we're like, we're starting to meet in the middle, which is an even more difficult place because there's no strong stance in what we want. We're just pivoting back and forth. Yeah. How did you come to a place where you feel strongly about the decision you have made now?

Justine Ang Fonte: 43:34

So the decision isn't that I'm, you know, my decision. Has only changed in that I am allowing for another option to be as valid. It's not as extreme of like now I'm a no kids person, right? I'm not, I'm not, I'm trying to like, not think about the fact that I could have wasted 16 grand on free egg freezing, because I feel like I need to now use one of them because of how much I spent. Right. But, that was always my plan I'm going to get married by 27 and I'm going to have four kids at least two years apart. And, two of those kids will be adopted and that was always my plan. And it seemed to like biologically make sense. if I had actually executed that plan at 27, but it did not work out with white boyfriends, so then plans change. And then I said, okay, I could still do four. Well, that's what, you know, adoption adds that buffer to my, you know, biological clock. So that's okay. So I could still have this plan and start at, you know, 35 or 34, whatever, and then Filipino boyfriend didn't work out. So then I'm like, okay, well I might be able to knock out one biological kid, with my eggs or without them. and then I've just started to get into, you know, now in age at 36, where a lot of my close friends who are my same age are now getting divorced or are now having a kid and just learning this new side of a personality in their partner. Because they're a different person as a parent, or they're not the person they expected as a parents. And so now I have 36 year old peers that are surrounding me, who are either on the brink of divorce already divorced or in very unhappy homes. And then I'm thinking in my single life, why am I swiping so damn hard for that? That's so why are you trying so hard? And then it's already hard just to find someone right. And the thing that I mentioned about these, these friends of mine is that I stood by them on their wedding days, really feeling like this is an actual marriage that I am totally. They are super healthy. I've known both of them for X amount of time. I feel good about this. I have zero qualms. And yet with that, like that, that solid foundation, they're on the brink of divorce. So then I'm like, all right, well, I already know I'm not going to lower my standards and that I have standards and I'm looking for this and that. But even with that, that's not a guarantee it's going to stick and it's going to work and it's going to be immune from thinking about divorce. and you know, and then once you bust out a kid and you bust out a second kid, it makes sense that it's going to strain your relationship. So not only have like my standards have, you know, stayed in like how I'm dating, but I'm even now to the point where. I don't even need someone to try to meet those standards because maybe it's impossible and that's not worth like my unhappiness. And so if I end up having to do this on my own, what would that look like on my own terms? And I thought, well, I would know that like the kind of career mom I would want to be is one that would need a full on other adult presence. That person doesn't have to be a husband. That person doesn't have to be necessarily a co-parent that I'm not married to. I just know need like at least a nanny present at all times. So that means that I need to be making a certain level of income to have two full on adults present to raise this kid. And I'm thinking about my job as a freelancer in sex education. And I'm like, it may not be possible that I reached that income. Therefore, I don't bring a kid into that. I am so pro the life of the child that I won't have one, if I can't give them the life that I want to give them. And so that mentality has made me realize, okay, so you're going to be cool on see Justine around the globe and maybe not mom. And you were someone that wanted four. I still want four, but I need to be four times as rich as I'm planning on being so that I can have all the nannies to make this happen. Right. I also need to find like someone who's wanting for, from someone who's already 36 years old. Right. So I still have this as something I want, but it's no longer the only goal that will lead to happiness. It might be for kids and it might be no kids. And I'm starting to believe that the happiness is equal. And that's the new thing. That's the mindset change that I've made and decision I've made to allow that as an option?

Kristy Yee: 48:55

I think what not, I think what I have just learned from what you have shared is it's not about picking one direction or another. It's not about being fixated on, I want to be a mom or I want to be a cool rich auntie with no kids. It's not about picking that one identity and trying to strive for it is looking at all of the different options and allowing all of those options to be viable. Right.

Justine Ang Fonte: 49:22

It's widening our definition. Of success, because for me, it was always like, I'm going to be married. I'm going to have kids. And that's what success slash happiness looks like. So keep swiping, keep swiping, worked really hard, you know, put it under the rug. He's good enough. He's coachable, whatever. And then I'm like, there's got to be another way because I've been doing that routine for 12 years in New York city and New York city dating is its own beast and I'm tired. So, you know, I feel like we have to allow for our own mental health and our longevity that it's possible to be happy and more than one ways. Why do I, why am I putting so much pressure and weight and giving so much credit to one thing, one place, one person to give you all that happy. Right. And so, you know, in the way I've even talked to like my high school seniors, who are you say, like, I'll only be happy if I go to this one. If this one school accepts me and I was not hit, I was that kid. Do you know who is told? Like, if I don't get into this one school, my life is over. And I didn't realize until I became a teacher and realizing, you know, the life that I've had, that, why am I giving so much power to this one institution to provide me with all this happiness, same thing. Why am I putting so much power in the institution of marriage to give me happiness? Oh, wait a minute. It's because I've bought in to capitalism being the thing that tells me happiness is only viable with marriage. And that's why the wedding industry is so profitable and multi-million dollar. And that's also why the divorce rate is also something that has conjured so much profit in divorce lawyers, because it's the whole system of make more, make more, make more. This is why you have to look a certain way in order to fit into that wedding dress. And that dress better be a dressed that's white, don't do anything. That's like, you know, Versive of that. This is the only one way for a wedding to really be, and you'll need at least five bridesmaid dresses because that's just what's traditional is. And, but I mean, there's just so many things layered in, like they really figured it out. They learn how to steal our money by convincing us that this is what happiness looks like. They do that with beauty standards. They do that with hallmark holidays. They do that with, you know, Valentine's day, whatever it is, like they figured out a way to just take more of our money because we've bought into the idea that that will therefore lead to happiness. And so part of it. You know, decolonizing is recognizing that there is many, there are many ways for you to live. it doesn't have to be this one that you're giving all this one, this power to. So it's been really liberating. So one give less fucks and then to also just know, okay, success and happiness is more than one thing. Wow, it's a game changer. I can just now live and live my best life and not feel guilty about it because it doesn't look like what bridal magazine told me.

Kristy Yee: 52:39

So Mike drop, one give less fucks two all the fucking options are viable and you don't need to stick to one. They can all be available at the same time. You can do whatever you want. Three is controlling what you can control and not having other people and other messages just fuck around with you. And it's not your responsibility to fix other people. You just control what you can control. You share your piece into the world. If they accept it. Great. If they don't, then we, we agree to disagree and we peace out. And then finally it's pick your battles, conserve that energy. Save it for what matters to you because there are only five cards. So figure out what it is that is important to you. And then all the other stuff you can just either give less fucks about, or if it doesn't cost you that much energy, whatever.

Justine Ang Fonte: 53:36

That's a great cliff note. Thank you,

Kristy Yee: 53:39

Christie. Thank you Justine, for sharing all of your wisdom with us today, how are you feeling?

Justine Ang Fonte: 53:46

Good. I, I feel, refresh to be able to share some different type of content than I've shared in other podcasts. So thank you for asking those questions and giving me a platform to share my

Kristy Yee: 53:58

answers. So Justine, I have one last question for you before we end. Our episode is out of all of those major topics that we talked about, we talked about sexuality. We talked about racism. We talked about conserving your energy and we talked about liberating the self out of any of those topics. What would be an advice that you could give to a younger audience or just to your younger self?

Justine Ang Fonte: 54:25

I mean, I like all of those. I think the main one for a younger self specifically, would be, you know, the language, age appropriate version of give less fucks because during, especially starting really during puberty, you know, this is where insecurity starts to build and grow because of what your body is changing into that is aligned or not aligned with what you hoped and dreamed for yourself. And on top of that, you're sent all of these messages as to what beauty actually is or worthy actually is while trying to also just navigate the social landscape because you have an innate human desire to belong. So I get that. I wish more middle schools gave students enough self-esteem to understand belonging with quality and not just for capital because the number of followers or the number of people sitting with you at the cafeteria table are not necessarily going to tell us the actual measure of happiness that we have. and I was a very strong, I'm a recovering people, pleaser, and I, you know, someone that was friends with everyone, And there's been things that have proven helpful from, from that, you know, those efforts, but it really wasn't until my, you know, late twenties where I started to realize what quality friendships mean and set boundaries in order to maintain friendships that actually serve me and my happiness and not out of obligation or out of fear of guilt of leaving. And I feel like if I took that on when I was younger and really just didn't care about, belonging in so many groups or certain groups, I think I would have been able to make more room for other things, to explore who Justine was. so I would say to my younger self and, you know, the younger generation, think more intentionally about the quality of belonging you're looking for. And not just to belong to say you belong somewhere.

Kristy Yee: 56:38

I love that. Thank you so much for being with us on the show today. Justine,

Justine Ang Fonte: 56:42

thank you for having me.