46. Unlearning Internalized Sexism in Your Family and Learning Self-Validation ft. Shirvin Lee

**Content Warning: Death, Depression, Suicide**

We are joined by psychotherapist Shirvin Lee who gets vulnerable and shares her childhood traumas of facing sexism and insurmountable pressures from her family. We also learn how to process and understand emotions better.

“Happiness is not the baseline.” - Shirvin

Resources/Mentions

• Dopamine Nation (Book)
• Why Are Emotions So Important? And How to Address Them (Article)
• Dialectical Behavior Therapy - Self Validation (Article)

Find Shirvin:

• Fundamentally Human by Shirvin Lee (Podcast)
• @therapywithshirvin (Instagram) 

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Transcript

Shirvin Lee: 0:00

Oh my God, I like 9 25. I suddenly had to use the washroom. I'm like, I hope I make it I just hope like I push out fast, you know? And I made about

Angie: 0:10

That's very on brand, you know?

Kristy: 0:32

In today's episode, we have Shervin Lee, a psychotherapist from Vancouver. She talks about the double standards from her Chinese parents and how she grew up needing to work for her love. She also shares a suicidal period from high school. Why she chooses not to tell her mom about her shit and what she does for her own self care.

Angie: 0:56

Welcome back to another episode of shit. We don't tell mom, this is Angie.

Kristy: 1:00

This is Christy.

Angie: 1:01

And today we have a guest with us. We have Shervin Lee here Shervin is the creator of a podcast called fundamentally human. Welcome to the show Shervin.

Shirvin Lee: 1:11

Thank you. I'm excited to be here today. I am a psychotherapist. I'm finishing up my internship and then going to be a full-fledged psychotherapist by the fall. And one of the reasons why I, every out to you guys was because. It's actually, I guess it would be niche to have a Asian female ill therapist because my parents growing up just didn't believe in mental health. And still now I think they always ask me, yo, you know, when are you going to do your PhD? What is a therapist? What do you do? How's it different from a doctor and all those types of things. So that's a little bit about me, I guess, on the therapy side of things. And outside of that, I love playing video games, and, living in Vancouver, I'm usually out and about hiking here and there, but I guess that's sums me up for now.

Kristy: 2:05

Tell us more about what you say to your parents when they ask you those questions?

Shirvin Lee: 2:11

well, in Cantonese, I would say that when you refer to someone who's a mental health professional, you just use the word, like some UNG, which is a mental health doctor, which really just means a psychiatrist. So my mom kept asking me, oh, are you actually a doctor? What can I tell my friends? What do I say on WeChat when you graduate? Like it's not even about, oh, you know, you've worked hard to get your schooling done and all of that, it was more, what can I tell my friends? Can you just send me a better picture of yourself so I can put it on my WeChat moments? And then we literally had a long discussion about what it was in Cantonese. And now she is calling it some Lacey, which is like, Mental health person or mental health clinician. Yeah. Specialist. So I'm like, I can't believe that she had to really clarify that because, well, that just goes to show how important titles are and something my parents will always tell me is, oh, don't get too involved with your clients or you're going to come out with depression because that's how depression happens. And I'm just like rolling my eyes constantly. I've truly mastered looking unimpressed by having a neutral face over the years. But inside I am definitely rolling my eyes hard, but honestly though, I would say I'll give credit to them. They've improved with understanding mental health and being more open to it over the years. I would like to say, cause of, the work that I put in for that but.

Kristy: 3:49

it.

Shirvin Lee: 3:50

Hm, exactly. But I would still say it's sometimes they don't understand exactly what I do. Cause I think it's not very tangible, you know, let's say, my brother, he used to be a pharmacist. And then now he's a software developer and they don't really understand what that is. They really just call it like playing with computers or on the computer all day and same thing with being a therapist. I don't think they see the tangible effects of it. Whereas like a doctor, you perform a surgery that person has cuts and bandages in their recovery and they can see that. But with mental health, you can't see it. So they sometimes don't understand it or they think it's, I don't think they recognize the effects of mental health yet.

Kristy: 4:38

it's, it's so much more of an abstract thing. And I think totally generalizing, like Asian parents in that generation right now. But. I think because, you know, they grew up and they lived in a different time. They had different priorities. So much of it was about survival. So much of a, a was about like assimilation, which is also part of survival and things are so much more, what's that term?

Shirvin Lee: 5:07

Was it simple back then?

Kristy: 5:09

More like practical thinking about practical things, very in a practical mindset rather than abstract thinking. Yeah. So because they're in survival mode, then everything has to be practical. Whereas now us in the next generation, we grew up with a lot more privilege. We, we now have a lot more knowledge and we have the safe space to. Sure still be practical, but also explore some abstract areas. That's why I think mental health is a lot more discussed nowadays and a lot more open, in our generation because it's, I don't know, easier to venture out into an abstract world and try to understand these things rather than always be in realistic mode.

Angie: 5:54

I'm just gonna drop some knowledge from my psychology 1 0 1 class, Maslow's hierarchy, you know, I feel like we're just higher up on the tier in our generation, our society just cuz we're a little bit luckier in that way, whereas I think it's great that your parents are like malleable enough. They, they kind of, are flexible enough to kind of listen to you and take what you say to heart and you know, the showing us off on WeChat thing is it's so funny because to us we're just like, Ugh, like title that's so shallow, but like you said, it's practical, right? So that's like how our parents, show that they are proud of us. They're not gonna say it. That's how they. Display their affection. It's like, oh, I love this. I'm proud of this. I'm gonna put on my WeChat moment. the other thing that's really interesting is the Chinese for psychology, like you said, so I speak Mandarin, but it's the same word, like singly Asian Shia. And I think it's really interesting because she means heart and they mean science. So it's like the science of the heart, heart science. Whereas like, if you talk about something more practical, like, I don't know, like cardiology, which is also heart, but in, in Mandarin sing out, which literally means like the heart organ, the science of the heart organ, but then in Chinese, psychology is singly the science of heart because you know, that's so I think that's really interesting as well

Kristy: 7:24

you know, when you say that? I think again, I go back to that practical and abstract thinking, it's like, you can totally visualize it. Right. And then heart science, which is some late that's like artsy, you know, it's

Shirvin Lee: 7:39

Yeah, I can't catch us going to Arts for a bachelor's. Oh my God. I remember that conversation. My parents had with me don't do that so much judgment

Angie: 7:52

through that. All the judgment, all the potential disappointments and et cetera. And now they're proud of you because they post about you on WeChat.

Shirvin Lee: 8:01

I made it.

Angie: 8:04

I made it look your moments.

Kristy: 8:07

So our show is called shit. We don't tell mom. And this is our first time having like someone like a professional person from the psychology field on our show. I'm curious from your perspective, like why do you think it is difficult for some of us to share shit with our mom or a parental figure? Yeah.

Shirvin Lee: 8:28

Yeah. And especially thinking back to my mom, I would think back when I was younger and even now I would see a lot of, let's say white people or my white friends, they're able to share with their parents. It's like, they're all best friends. They all cuddle and cry and watch movies with their moms. And I'm like, oh God, how do I do that? oh, like, what was the last time I told my mom, I love you. That's so weird. You know? she cuts me fruit by her food. It works out in equal exchange. That way it's transactional. And I think a lot of it goes back to what you were saying about things being practical and survival. Like I think back to my parents, as corny as it might sound, they came to Canada in the eighties and they grew up, or their parents, my grandparents grew up during the war times. So for them literally, they would be telling me, you know, that one grain of rice is really important. Make sure you eat every single grain of rice in the bowl. Whereas now we have the luxury and freedom to take things home or to not eat everything. It's okay. We still survive because we have a billion things that we can choose to eat from now. So when they have that mindset of survival, then that means what are the things that give them the best life. And you mentioned the hierarchy earlier. So for them, it's having a roof over the head of our, having a roof over our. And having clothes to wear. I mean, I'm sure many of us have had 500 jackets to wear outside in 15 degrees weather because our parents didn't want our throats to get colder, our heads to get cold, because that means we would get sick or making sure you have enough water having your fruit cut for you. So you're not starving and you get your nutrients. And then that translates later on into school. Where, oh, are you studying science? Are you studying somewhere that gives you a professional career? How much money are you going to make? Are you going to get married and have children? You know, to them, those are all the steps of life. But then for us, when we grew up, we learned about that. It's okay to fail and it's okay to make mistakes, but for them, they had a very, very low threshold. How much, how many mistakes they can make. One mistake can really change the course of their lives. So for them, they are more on edge, I would say, compared to us. And because of that, there was no opportunity to be vulnerable, no opportunity to be weak, or to get a B going back to stereotypes, no opportunity to do anything that would impact your survivability and your chance of succeeding in life. So, yeah, that means literally no emotions. You are a robot. And because of that, I, you know, I haven't really shared things with my parents because I have to appear robotic in front of them.

Angie: 11:27

Wow. Like you put it into such articulate words. that was fairly eloquent about how they never, they weren't able to make mistakes. And I was like, oh man, you're right. Yeah. Cuz a simple mistake could mean that's it. Like you're gonna have a horrible life now.

Kristy: 11:44

Like the magnitude is so much bigger. So mistakes are just unaffordable. Like you, you can't afford to make mistakes. And, and I think that comes from that survival mode that they were in and it gets passed down to us because obviously they want to protect us cuz they love us. And that's the way that they show how they love us. And yeah, I, I am still thinking about what you had just said because I don't think I have framed it in that way. Thinking about how, if I make a mistake it's okay. And we're taught that it's okay because we are now in this safe, privileged space living in Canada. Mostly safe and we're taught that, Hey, you know what? It's O it's okay to fail. In fact, failing is part of the journey of wherever your path is gonna lead you. And, and it's just a different lesson than what they were taught.

Angie: 12:40

Yeah. And almost, Shervin the way you framed it also made me think, cuz you know, I have been to, therapy and I have gone through some tools, especially C, B T as well, which is really important for, treating, the symptoms of bipolar disorder, which is what I have. Now that you say it like that. I was like, maybe the reason why it takes us. Like we have to be the one pushing their boundaries into a space where they learn like, Hey, risks are okay to take. So, you know, they're like, you have to be a pharmacist. You have to be a doctor where things are very concrete, like a typical doctor, like surgeon or family doctor. But then once you show them, Hey, I decided to go somewhere else and I'm okay. It's almost like exposure therapy for them. Right. It goes into that space of like, look, I, when else I, your comfort zone and I survive. In fact, I'm thriving. And then they go, huh? Okay. Let me post about this on WeChat.

Shirvin Lee: 13:46

I've had a lot of built up resentment and I still sometimes do, but the reframing came in probably in the last few years when I really thought about, you know, why are they the way they are? And it's not easy to be empathetic at times. Sometimes I get so frustrated and I just want to be like, oh my God, please be nice to us. But I get where they're coming from.

Angie: 14:09

Yeah, you can, you can be understanding and also frustrated at the same time for.

Kristy: 14:15

mean, we're all just learning, right? Like we can't be perfect, but at least we're in a space now where we're not Justy teenagers. Shevin you mentioned like some stuff that you, you didn't open about with your mom before, and you know, now you're a different person, but take us back to that. I don't know, ancy teenager, early twenties. what was that relationship like with you and your mom?

Shirvin Lee: 14:41

Yeah. Well, I love that. I know the podcast is about our moms and that's very much true because my dad wasn't really around and still, you know, I live with my parents because in Vancouver, of course you stay for as long as you can. And with my dad, he is there at times, but he's often working because to him, that's the. Definition of survival. If we work, we have money and that's all he's been trained to do. He's a robot in that sense. And in grade one or grade two, we had this project to draw and write about what our parents like to do. so I wrote, my mom likes to sleep and my dad likes to work because my mom would usually take a nap after she picks me up. And that's all I saw. I'm like, oh, she, she likes to sleep. And my mom has brought this song with me multiple times. And you know, now I realize, oh, you know, she did all the cooking and laundry and cleaning and groceries, and she has a part-time job. And she did all of that when I was in school. So of course, by the time she picked me up in the middle of the day, she would nap. And that's not all she did. Yeah. Little me didn't realize that she did more than napping. So, you know, when you're seven, that's kind of all you see at that time. And. I think letter grades at that time came out when you started in grade five or something. So my parents were always pushing my brother and I to, you know, get the best grades possible. Be the best student in your class. I was doing piano. I was doing, cello and they put me in tutoring and they're like, don't tell people you're in tutoring so that they think you're smarter. And I actually did mention that for many, many years. Cause I was like, oh my God, I do look smarter if I don't tell people, it's ridiculous. Thinking back to it now. And just a lot of stuff. Thinking back as like a, I don't know, seven to 16 year old, that's a lot of pressure to have to. 20 different things to Excel in all those things. And to be expected to think about your career, to think about what you're going to do when you get married, how many kids you're going to have when you're a teenager. And I was truly quite depressed when I was young and. A lot of it is also being in a very traditional family. My brother, who's older, you know, he's the prized kid of the family. He's going to carry the family name on he's older. He's the first born he's male. And in China, they've had rules about only having one kid. So of course you have the kid who's the stronger one. And my parents would often tell me that know, I know they don't think this now, but back then they wished they had another boy. They didn't wish they didn't have a daughter. And that's really hurtful when you're a kid and you're just trying to get out there in the world. And then you see all your wife, friends being happy. And in elementary school, there were three Asian kids including me. So that's a lot to put on. And I was very depressed when I was a kid. And there were times when I was younger that I was suicidal because I was like, well, I don't belong here. That's all I knew. And I didn't know that was depression or being suicidal when I was younger. That was just me. Figuring out where I was in the world and what place I did have. And I just knew that if I didn't do well, it meant really bad news. It meant, you know, you get hit with chopsticks, a duster, whatever you can find at home. And I laugh now because it was one time I thought I was so smart. I put a pillow in my pants thinking, oh, they won't know that I'm gonna have like something there to like, make it so it won't hurt as much. Of course they Don they can feel the pillow I thought it was so smart fact that, but it's things like that where, you know, you grow up having to ha cope that way, putting a goddamn pillow in your pants. I mean, that's crazy, crazy pants to have to think of that to survive, but all in all is cheesy as it sounds. I think if I didn't go through a lot of what I had gone through in the past, I wouldn't be as resilient as I am now, or even understanding or being able to reframe because you know, back then I resented now it's like, okay. I guess that's like all you knew it makes sense.

Kristy: 19:04

mean, like, think about the amount of pressure that this seven year old child has all the way up to 16. Being confused about their own identity, feeling the pressure from your family of needing to be someone meet certain expectations so that I can have value so that I can feel loved, especially already being a girl being unwanted. So I have to prove myself even more so I can get that love that I want. And then being surrounded by all these other people in school who just like gets unconditional love. Not saying your parents didn't give you unconditional love, but it feels like you had to work for it. And that's a lot of fucking pressure and so much confusion about yourself and who you are and your self value and your self worth. And you have to think about that from like primary years, all the way up until I'm sure like high school. Probably even in our twenties,

Angie: 20:09

Yeah, even now,

Kristy: 20:10

even who I might be a little bit better than 16 year old Christie, but like, I'm just imagining this seven year old girl driven.

Shirvin Lee: 20:17

mm-hmm

Kristy: 20:19

And you mentioned, you know, having suicidal thoughts when you were younger.

Shirvin Lee: 20:23

Yeah. I, in grade 12, we had this retreat where we, I was one of the retreat leaders and as a retreat leader, we had to share about our. Childhoods and, or not childhoods, but something traumatic to us. I, I don't know why we did that. Actually. That's kind of a little weird thinking but it actually was one of the first times I ever opened up about this because I thought all of this was normal and that was in grade 12 in grade 10. And one of our planning classes, we had to talk about how we would discipline children or discipline in general. I don't know how the topic came up, but I said, oh,

Kristy: 21:06

oh, what a Chinese answer. I'm sure lots of other cultures too, and we're not condoning violence at home, but we're laughing because it came from a place of pain. At one point in our lives. This is a shared experience. I'm sure for many of us today and, and for our listeners, but we laugh. It's.

Angie: 21:28

Yeah.

Shirvin Lee: 21:29

It's so true. And I said it completely seriously. And then I remember the look of shock on my teacher's face and I'm, I don't, I can't remember anything after that. I just remember that one moment. I said, just hit that. That's all I knew, you know, being hit, being pressured and all of that. And. I can remember as early as probably when I was seven, cuz that was a memorable age for me where I was, my parents kept like a knife in their room and I had taken it out. I was, I don't think I was ever at the point where I would actually hurt myself because I was too scared of pain. I I think, no, just to put it all out there, I thought about it. If I were to ever die, it would probably be in the most painless way, like an OD or something like that, where I'm, poisoning myself in some way. I don't think I can ever jump off a building or like shoot myself or anything. I'm too scared of the, how the paint feels. So as a kid, I knew all of that. These aren't thoughts that I had as an adult, I had the, these thoughts when I was in elementary school and high school, you know, probably from watching TV or the is where I learned all of this, who knows, but. That I think that's really sad. I guess I, it pains me to think about how I was when I was younger. And I had these thoughts when I was younger and I was often wondering, do I even belong here? You know, as a female, my brother's so much better. He never gets in trouble. I put in all this work and it doesn't matter. So yeah, it was a very, some dark times when I was younger and just contemplating my identity. My belonging is how much work is ever going to be enough for my parents. When will they finally say they're proud of me or that they're happy for me? So those are a lot of thoughts I had when I was younger.

Angie: 23:22

I'm sorry. It's makes my heart very heavy to hear that. Just because, you know, like, yeah, like there's such a big difference, like about how our parents treat their sons and then versus their daughters, it's like one additional thing on, on top, right? Like, yes, we might face kind of the similar amount of pressure. We have the same parents, but yet we get treated completely differently and that's just, it's very sad. And, yeah. I'm sorry you went through that. I.

Kristy: 24:00

The story that you shared Shervin. We all have our own unique experiences and our own unique stories, but there's always commonality threads that we relate to. And I think a lot of people who have siblings that are male in likely an Asian background felt similar things, needing to prove themselves, needing to work hard for their love and feeling like it's so unfair that I would get in trouble for something, but they won't get in trouble for doing the same thing, you know, or I would be yelled at so much more than they would be. And it's like having these double standards and you grow up learning that this is just how the way works, you know, and growing up, even thinking like. Violence. That's the way to go. That's how you discipline kids. That's how you learn stuff, because that's how I learned it. And, and honestly, I think that's how, that's why our parents do it because that's how they learned it.

Angie: 25:05

Shevin. Have you ever spoken to your parents, or like confronted them about what they did as when you

Shirvin Lee: 25:15

That's a good question. And just to, I guess, give more context to it. Christie mentioned about having to prove yourself. And I, even to this day, now I still have this need to prove myself. It looks like different things growing up. And you know, in my late teens and twenties, that's when Facebook and Instagram and Snapchat all came out and I felt like I had to post things to prove myself, just like how my parents post things to prove their worth on WeChat. It all makes sense. And you know, even now it's like, I feel like I constantly have to do tons of things or have to succeed or look like I'm successful to prove my own work. And I. I don't really do it to prove it to externally my friends or coworkers or anything like that. But I do it to two parts, proving myself and proving my parents because I have this fear of constantly disappointing them. And because of that, it's always been difficult to really tell them these experiences. I've told them little ti bits where, you know, I've told them some resentment about forcing me to go into sciences or how my brother was unhappy about being forced into pharmacy and that there were so many other options available and I felt like they coerced me. You know, I wished we had some type of open dialogue about it and, but they didn't know any better. So yeah, having those conversations was often hard and I told them about, you know, how I felt that they treated my brother better than I did. I think I told them when I was in my early twenties or in my late teens, I haven't talked about it recently because I've honestly accepted the fact that it's. Digging up a lot of hurt and pain. And sometimes I think it's not even worth to have that conversation anymore and we focus on other topics instead. But when I did bring it up back then, I remember they were really offended. They were like, no, not us. How can, like, they didn't realize it themselves, that they were putting me under all this pressure. They were treating me differently. And you know, an example is my grandma. She let's say it. I must have been like 20 or 21 cuz I was still in my undergrad and I was working part-time and usually my schedule would be going to school in the morning having lunch. And then I come home and I work for a couple of hours at an elementary school running programs. And then I would take a short nap before dinner and my grandma would wake me up when I was napping to help her with random things that could, she could have waited. Whereas one time, you know, I woke. And I was really annoyed and groggy and I said, oh, why don't you just ask my brother? And she would say, oh no, he needs to rest. And he's on his computer, just doing stuff like, excuse me, I am literally sleeping. You want me to like, change the time on your micro? It was something like obscure and not even important and stuff like that. Growing up where it was blatantly obvious, there was so much sexism and I would bring it up. Like my now I'm going on a rampage. This is honestly a therapy session for me. So thank you everyone here. but I remember my dad. Would tell me like, you know, men are smarter than women, you know, men are more successful if, and they would even say things like, oh, if you look at all the people in like fortune 500, all the CEOs, CEOs, whatever, they are always almost men or all the scientists and stuff, the most reputed ones are always meant. So therefore men are smarter and lo and behold, look who has the master and who does it? My brother does it. it's okay. He's like really, really smart. he knows it. He knows, I think he's smart. So it's okay. But it's like, stuff like that where they would like, now I'm ki we, we can laugh at it cuz we're older and we're like, Hey, whatever, but yeah. Oh man. When you're like a kid and you're a teenager in your early twenties when you're so impressionable. That's the things and that's why to this day, I'm going to, I'm in my late twenties now, but I'm still suffering with this need of proving my worth because it's like, is it ever going to be enough for them? Oh, that was a bit of a spiel.

Angie: 29:46

No, no, it's,

Kristy: 29:48

was great.

Angie: 29:49

relatable. I think it's like, first of all, it's like, like, like, you know, it's just such a, it's not even reduced to our culture either. It's just like such a global thing, but we feel it growing up and we, we like, it impacts our day to day. Like you say, you can't even freaking take a nap, so you can't even have nap without being interrupted because you are a girl and you have to go help your, parents, even like, like my parents are pretty, you know, like people who have heard the, podcast before, like my parents are pretty open minded. Even my mom, she was like treated really well growing up because, my grandparents actually wanted a daughter. When they gave birth to my mom and they were spending money to put my mom through school, the villagers were like, why are you wasting your money kind of thing. So even though, even though my mom had that upbringing, she still absorbed a lot of, internalized sexism because that's at home, maybe not, but like outside, like she still experienced that sexism. So she'll say things like, oh, having a daughter is better because they'll, they'll, they'll treat you better. They take care of you. And even though it's a positive thing, I don't think

Kristy: 31:11

And it just goes to

Angie: 31:12

her or our parents realize that like, it can actually be harmful because it makes us think, Hey, careers are not pursuing. careers are not worth pursuing. It's better to stay at home and take care of your. Mom and your dad and your aging grandparents or something like that, which is why like, Hey, why do you think CEOs are men? Okay. They got to get away with it. You know, they were able to go out and pursue their careers and maybe we weren't. Right. So yeah, like even, even if you think your parents are open minded, they're still the, they're still like a symptom of society. That's why I said like, no, it's not a rampage at all. It's just, it's so relatable. So thank you for sharing.

Kristy: 32:03

that. We don't tell mom even a psychotherapist has shit that she does not tell mom.

Shirvin Lee: 32:13

Mm-hmm

Kristy: 32:13

we all have different ways of like, dealing with it, whether it's like, Hey, this is actually not really worth my time. I'm gonna work on myself. I'm gonna work on reframing, better understanding my parents and then just, you know, talk to them about other things, move on for other people. It's like, Hey, actually, let's dig back on some of that pain. And like, let's talk about it because it's important to me. So there's no like one way or like a quote unquote right way. But it's really about like, processing that experience your own stories and then see, how do you wanna move forward from that, with your relationship with your family or whomever.

Angie: 32:50

Yeah. Not to diminish what, Shervin said, but like, you know, she's a psychotherapist and you know, she still. Shit to deal with too, you know, like I kind of wanna know what inspired you to go into it too, like co not your podcast, but just everything that you do, like advocating for mental health, becoming, a therapist. Like how did that happen?

Shirvin Lee: 33:16

So how it, I actually got to, it was after I graduated from my undergrad, I really wanted to do some type of healthcare. Maybe nonprofit, I wanted to give back in some way, I wanted to do work that works with people. And I found this, job, and I'm still at it now at a substance use clinic. And I worked, you can think of a, as a coordinator or program manager type of thing, just making sure the clinic is up and running. And because of that, I was talking daily with all of the clients and people calling in and asking about it. When you see people, if someone's drinking like two bottles of wine every day, and then by the end of the program, they're drinking one glass of wine a week and they're so much happier and I see you smiling Christie, but that's literally how I felt. Every time I heard about someone just making change on their own accord and their own pace. And, you know, I realized this now, but when I was younger, I was always on my parents' schedule, always on what their schedule of what they wanted for me. And now as a therapist, psychotherapist and in some type of capacity and mental health, you're able to help people. Make change on their own accord and on their own schedule in a way they want to and what works for them. And in the clinic, I worked with a lot of different therapists and doctors and I talked to them regularly and I really liked the work they did. So I went into school for that and just finished school. And here I am just wanting to share more. That's what led me to the podcast too, because I felt like I learned a lot of these things that now seem common sense to me, but a lot of people didn't learn and well, that makes sense. I went to school for it. so hopefully I got something out of it and just being able to share and have people rethink or reframe situations. And with my parents, I don't talk to them about depression and suicide and the difficult, painful moments I had, because I truly think that they won't really understand it or be open to it. But something I did at I've done at home is. Teaching my mom gratitude saying, thank you. You know, after every meal, I'll always thank her. And if I do something, I encourage her to thank me. And actually the first year, she really well because of the pandemic, I work at home. So she sees me all the time and I see her, but she really didn't understand it. And I said, I'm thanking you for your time and your effort. Yes. Maybe you quote unquote should do it because you're my mom. And that's what she says. She thinks she should be doing these things. And I really don't believe in that. I tell her, you know, I can make my own food. I can go buy food. There are a ton of things that we could do, but I am still thankful for you. I'm, there's a lot of gratitude there and now she recognizes the importance and she says, thank you back to me too now. So I think that was, a major thing that we worked on in the last two years together, living at home.

Kristy: 36:24

Not only are you role modeling, these positive changes in your own household by showing you know, your mom about gratitude and teaching her about gratitude, but you're also actively talking to her about it, like why this is important and why we should be thankful. And it's interesting because my, my mom is. Making these changes as well. And and I'm gonna say, it's not, it's not me. It wasn't my efforts. but I'm gonna, I'm gonna like, take a little bit of, little bit of win by saying like, I, I talked to her about the importance of paying attention to our own mental health. And from that she started to like, listen to these philosophy lecturers and lecturers from psychologists and psychiatrists. And through there, she started learning about. The importance of gratitude and feeling thankful. So she's now telling me okay, on like, what's that message. She'd be like today. I woke up and I thanked all the gods and Buddha for keeping the And you know, the sun is shining today and when I go to bed, I thank all the gods and the Buddhas again, so at, in some level, right? Like we're practicing it very differently, but she is, she is, reflecting on the things that she has to be thankful for. And. And, and I love these little wins, right? Like it's now we are actively or passively teaching our parents about some of these important things, even if we're not sitting down and like, let's talk about depression, we're doing it in our own way. And it shows up in our parents and they actually reciprocate maybe a lot more than we might think they would.

Angie: 38:14

Yeah. And it's, it's a different type of gratifying too. when you see your parents making those changes, you're like, I helped, I had something to do with this, even though they're, you know, our parents, because we grow up thinking they're like invaluable. Right. And then we are like, oh, they're humans to Ugh. Oh. And then we grow to resent them. Like we look up to them and then we resent them. And then we come to understand that they're just, you know, human beings, this whole like cycle that we go through too. and then seeing them actually like improving themselves at their age, like it's. Great. It's great.

Kristy: 38:52

I'm gonna pivot a little bit something on your website, Ervin. almost it's like a tagline. Happiness is not a baseline. I love that. It, I feel like it keeps coming up on, on all of your things. Where did that come from? And like, could you tell us more of what that means to you?

Shirvin Lee: 39:10

Yeah, I'm really into the word baseline right now. earlier this month I read, or this year I read a book called dopamine nation and she essentially talks about. How your baseline is going to look different compared to everyone else. So what that means in the sense of dopamine is everyone has a different level of dopamine output, or you get it from different things. And her book is more about addiction. So let's say when you're drinking alcohol, you're rewarded with dopamine because it's sending messages to your brain to release dopamine chemicals, to be happier, rewarded, having this high feeling. So, and it really, really stands out to me because we're taught, you know, even if you do a survey, you're taught that having a 10 out of 10 is normal. It means you did a good job or having a nine out of 10 or getting an 80 or a 90 or getting anything over a 90 means you've done well, but. You know, when I started university, it was very normal to have sixties or 70 averages on a midterm. And that was a huge wakeup call because that was, really tough to tell my Asian parents when I wasn't doing well at first. And when I talk about happiness is a, is not the baseline. what I mean is let's say going back to a scale of one to 10, a five out of 10, it might seem like you're a failure. It might seem like you just passed, but actually that's right smack in the middle that's average. That's neutral. So when I think of it this way, I think we can be kinder to ourselves where a five out of 10 is how we are. On most days, some days we are 6, 7, 8, 9, even at 10, we're feeling happy. Maybe we went to the gym for the first time in a while. Maybe we had a really good meeting at work or some days it might be go lower 4, 3, 2, 1 negatives. We had a really bad day. Our favorite cup broke or we got fired, or I don't know. There's so many things that happen. And being able to recognize that we're not always having to be at a nine or a 10. Can be really relieving because that's a lot of pressure we put on ourselves to always want to be happy and to show everyone, you know, we're always happy and stuff and really succeeding, but that's not how most of us really are. I mean, I'm sitting here in a sweatshirt and then really flowery pants. And to me, that's the 10 outta 10 to some people, it might not feel like they're they look put together. So even in that sense, the baseline of how you feel about yourself is going to look different for everyone. And I think that's really important to realize, and not only for yourself, but the type of expectations you put on other people too.

Kristy: 42:06

freaking love that like 50% is not failure. 50% is neutral.

Shirvin Lee: 42:12

And

Angie: 42:12

Yeah, that's great.

Kristy: 42:14

There are some unlearning that we gotta do.

Angie: 42:16

you know, you know, what's funny is that before we started recording, I messaged Christy. I was like, Hey, good morning. And she's like, morning. She's like, by the way, my energy level today is seven outta 10. And in my head, I was like, that's pretty good. seven outta 10. Like I was gonna say, my level is like seven out 10 today. But Christy said it almost as in like, Hey, like, I don't know about my energy level. It's seven outta 10. And I hope that she learned a lesson here. I'm just kidding.

Shirvin Lee: 42:43

it can change. that's an important part.

Kristy: 42:47

let's go to that conversation because when I had sent you that message Angie, what my actual intention was, was to let you know, I'm not at my a game. I'm not at a hundred percent. I'm not like fully there to be like, yeah, let's we're gonna podcast today. I'm like super excited, blah, blah, blah. Right. I am

Shirvin Lee: 43:09

Thank you. I'm

Kristy: 43:10

But.

Shirvin Lee: 43:11

glad.

Kristy: 43:12

But I wanted to like, let Angie know, like, Hey, I'm, I'm not a hundred percent. So if I seem a little bit off, like, I'm gonna need you to like take over and, you know, balance out my energy. And basically like have my back is what I was wanting to say. But what's interesting now is that, you know, that conversation was like, what, an hour ago? And an hour ago, my baseline was supposedly 10 out of 10. Like, and that anything below that was like, oh, I have to explain myself.

Angie: 43:44

Mm-hmm

Kristy: 43:45

And now, you know, 50 minutes later into this conversation, I'm like, oh shit, 50% is actually just neutral. Like, why is my baseline a hundred? That's so unrealistic. That's like that perfectionism side of me coming out. And I didn't even realize it.

Angie: 44:03

Yeah. And I knew exactly what you meant too. When you said seven out 10. Like, I, I, I knew exactly what you meant. That's why I'm like, oh, I'm so I'm so glad that Sher's like, Hey, five out of 10 is neutral.

Shirvin Lee: 44:15

And actually that's a really good point. You guys are, you two are really close. So Angie understood what you meant, Christie, but the thing is we feel like we always have to present our best selves to other people. Whereas it takes a lot of vulnerability and strength to ask, Hey, I might need your support today, or I'm going to need you to back me up when I have brain fog. And I can't think of the next question to ask or guess that happens to me often, but I think these are the type of things we can tell other people that we might not be as close with and let them know what support looks like for us that day. And also to recognize if you're sitting at a 7 0 10, right now, it's always subject to change. I mean, I woke up and I was like, oh God, my voice is like, really. Like it was like cracking sorority and I couldn't get out of the, I just woke up voice for like 20 minutes. I was literally talking to myself like 10 minutes before just saying random things, just to warm up my voice. And you know, when it's raining on a Sunday and it's early in the morning, I wasn't feeling that my a game either, but I felt so welcomed. And so warmed by you guys that, you know, that changed and that we're always subject to change. And it depends on so many things like our environment, the people we're with our own energy levels, waking up throughout the day. And I think a lot of people don't recognize that you can change just because you, you know, we hear a lot of, oh, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, or I didn't wake up. Well, that doesn't mean that that's the rest of your day. It might mean you're more tired, but you're not going to be grumpy the entire day. Maybe just the first hour.

Angie: 45:53

mm-hmm and honestly, I think the work that both of you do are so important, but especially Shervin, just because I've personally benefited from psychotherapy. And like, I think it's such an important job and it's so, so important that we have more therapists, especially in our community, because it's so important. And I was so lucky to get a therapist that was like Asian female, grew up in the west, but also has a lot of background from the east. Like I was so lucky and in, in the work that was done during, my psychotherapy sessions, one of the things that she taught me, one of the tools that she really. Gave me was like recognizing emotions, cuz like I just didn't know how the point of the exercise was to like understand my baseline. Right. So it was like situation, name, your emotions. How do you feel right now? And then name your actions? Like what did you do immediately? And then after a while, name your, how your emotions are like once you've journaled and I could see my emotions, like go from really intense to more mild. And that was like a way for me to understand like, Hey, emotions, move your, your mood is dynamic. It's not like the same all the time. So the baseline thing, like when I read. Not slogan that motto that you have the Mo I was like, oh, that's like so fundamental. And that's like really needs to be imprinted into like everybody's mind.

Kristy: 47:24

I'm gonna say it again. Okay. It's happiness is not a baseline. 50% is neutral, Shevin thank you so much for sharing your time, your energy and your story for allowing us and our listeners to grow with you from seven years old, to late twenties and being vulnerable about your suicidal thoughts and that period of your life. We learned a lot about reframing role modeling, and that everything is dynamic, including our energy and our identities and how we kind of figure shit out because we are all just kind of figuring shit out. And at the end, happiness is not a baseline five outta 10 is just neutral. So thank you, Shervin.

Shirvin Lee: 48:11

Thank you so much for having me today.

Kristy: 48:14

Okay. Last question. Where can our listeners find you

Shirvin Lee: 48:19

yes. So my website is shervin.ca S H I R V I N. Dot CA. I have an Instagram account therapy with Shervin and my podcast is fundamentally human. And you can find that on most platforms.

Kristy: 48:37

you listen to your podcasts?

Shirvin Lee: 48:40

Exactly.

Kristy: 48:40

thank you again. VIN. It's been such a great pleasure chatting with you today.

Shirvin Lee: 48:45

Thank you. Aw, I'm so glad I found you guys, like you guys just showed up on, like, I think I, I like looked you guys up on Facebook and we had like so many mutual friends and then

Kristy: 49:27

whoa, 26 mutual friends.