52. How Do We Define Cheating in a Relationship?

Angie has been cheated on. Kristy has done the cheating. Inspired by the recent events in the Try Guys, we chat about our own experiences with infidelity including physical cheating, emotional cheating, micro-cheating, work crushes, and how to move on.

“You're not a cheater,  [...] you had cheated. But you’re not a cheater. It's not a identity thing, it's an action thing.” - Angie Yu

Resources & Mentions:

• What Is an Emotional Affair? (Article)

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Transcript

Angie: 0:00

I did a lot of micro cheating in like university,

Kristy: 0:04

i, okay. Officially, I count me, having had cheated twice. So once was physically, and then the other time was emotionally. But if we really wanna get down to the nitty gritty, I have micro treated in all my relationships.

Angie: 0:45

Well come back to another episode of Shit We Don't Tell Mom, this is Angie,

Kristy: 0:49

And this is Kristy

Angie: 0:50

so first of all, we're currently in the same time zone. Not even, we're

Kristy: 0:54

I know. No, we're not in the same city. We're technically two cities away from each other.

Angie: 1:00

But it's like a 20 minute drive. So, but you know what, It doesn't feel like you're only 20 minutes away from me. So that's, that's the, that's the weird part. It still feels like Yeah, you're very far away. We'll save that for another episode. Today we're actually gonna be talking about infidelity

Kristy: 1:17

And we were inspired by what has

Angie: 1:22

transpired. I knew you were gonna say transpired.

Kristy: 1:26

because inspired That's why I hesitated. I'm like, Fuck, now they rhyme, And that seems stupid. But I said it anyways. We were inspired by what had transpired with the try guys and what happened with Ned Fulmer and and that situation. So for Poop troops, I don't know if y'all follow the try guys, but I'm a big fan. Angie, are you a big fan or were you a big fan

Angie: 1:52

I was, Yeah, I think I was. And then I stopped watching them and now I'm watching them again. So this whole thing, scandal, whatever you wanna call it, this whole event has brought me back to them. Because I really respect how they've taken or how they've pro, pro progressed with this,

Kristy: 2:12

how they've handled the situation?

Angie: 2:15

Yes. so I used to watch them when they were on buzz feed, and then I stopped kind. I kind of stopped watching their videos for a bit. and then I, I knew that they had started their own company, blah, blah. I was always like watching from afar, Like I didn't actually watch their stuff, but I followed Eugene on Instagram.

Kristy: 2:31

I, and I would say I'm a closer follower. I bought their books. I like watched all of, all of Keith's try the menu series. I'm like, Yeah, I'm, I wouldn't say I'm a, huge fan. Like I don't follow everything. There's, I have on and off moments, but I, I have definitely kept up, it sounds like, with more of their material. yeah. So when the news broke out, that was fucking very disappointing.

Angie: 3:01

Was that your first reaction? Like were you shocked?

Kristy: 3:05

I was shocked, like disappointed leash. So just because of, you know, what Ned's or Ned's character embodies and it's just like, Oh my God, come on. You know, like, come on. So for the Poop troops who might not be as familiar, the try guys, they are these four, four dudes who had met on Buzz Feed, almost said Buzz Sprout,

Angie: 3:33

You know, you're a podcaster when.

Kristy: 3:37

So they side note Buzzsprout is our hosting platform for our podcast. so yeah, they worked together on Buzzfeed. They formed this group called Try Guys. It, it became a hit. So then they left Buzzfeed and they started their own. Company and YouTube channel and they have been very, very successful. And amongst the four guys, they kind of have their own brand, I suppose, character, personality,

Angie: 4:04

Yeah, Brand and

Kristy: 4:05

Yeah. All all of that. Yeah. And and Ned Ned's persona slash personal brand is that he is like the Dody husband.

Angie: 4:17

Yeah. Devoting husband and father. Well, people say he's a wife guy. the term that I've been seeing over all over Reddit and Instagram is wife guy. And they're like, Oh, never trust a wife guy. And that's exactly why I was in shocked. So, because I hadn't been following them for a while, my coworker was like, in our like general like shit talking group chat she was like, Oh, does anybody hear follow the try guys. Ned Fulmer just got kicked out because he was having an affair, and I was like, Oh, she, I'm like, the first thing I said was not surprised.

Kristy: 4:53

Really

Angie: 4:54

Yes. And it's because I have experience, personal experience with like dating someone whose entire personality was a doting boyfriend and who elevated his, elevated his standing, his social standing, because everyone believed him to be this like, super devoted, doting, thoughtful, sensitive guy, because that all he talked about was how good of a boyfriend he was. You know what I mean? So this is like a, it's like a thing. Wife, guys and girlfriend guys, like it's a thing. So a lot of the comments were like, Oh, like I knew it was a, I knew it was suspicious. Or like, Oh yeah, I totally saw it as a red flag. Any guy who, any guy or girl who makes their entire persona their significant other, it's always kind of like a sign of overcompensating.

Kristy: 5:47

Wow. I did not make the connection between your experience and I mean, it makes so much sense now that you're saying it. I was completely shocked because I, I full on believed him and Sure. Like I get that a lot of these personas, it is part of their job, right? Like, they can't just be that like, but that's the, that's the branding that they choose to show on the internet. So I get that there's some sort of, Exaggeration or dramatization behind each of the track guys' personas but I, I genuinely believed that they are all who they portrayed themselves to be. And then you just like dial it up a notch, you know, for entertainment purposes.

Angie: 6:35

I think that too. I don't think it being a wife guy or the fact that he cheated says that he doesn zt or didn't love his wife and kids. Like, it's not like mutually exclusive. I think it's just like, it's more like it's a sign of insecurity.

Kristy: 6:52

Yeah. Like overcompensating, like you said. And it, and it just makes so much sense, you know, like it makes so much sense when you, when you say it from that perspective. And I feel like a fool for. Trusting for being like, Yes, Ariel, she's.

Angie: 7:14

Yeah. And, and well, the thing is like, she is really cool and that's why everyone was like, Yeah, okay. He, he's just very like, vocal about it and it's, if she was like very not amazing, then people would be like, Okay, something's up. You know what I mean? Like it was believable. and I don't think he was like a hundred percent faking, I think. Yeah, like you said, it's just dialed up a little bit, maybe because he felt like his identity was slipping away by being that wife guy. Maybe he was trying to do something to regain his own identity. And because of that, people have different ways of manifesting to try to reclaim their own identity. But he just chose a very, very poor way to do it.

Kristy: 7:57

Yeah, I mean, like, we won't know why and we can't just like, sit around and make assumptions about why people choose to do what they do like, but infidelity in of itself. Angie has a, has experience with a version of that and, and so do I. So let's talk about infidelity as a thing. Okay. So infidelity. should we define in, in infidelity?

Angie: 8:29

I, We must just,

Kristy: 8:37

M glad I so much joy to your. poop troops. Angie is currently having both her arms, like on her hips and breathing.

Angie: 8:51

know. I was like, I didn't wanna get a stitch. Oh boy. Okay. How do we wanna approach this? Okay,

Kristy: 8:58

Yeah. Angie, this is, this is like a serious, serious topic here.

Angie: 9:03

Maybe that's why we're, That's why I'm laughing, cuz I'm overcompensating.

Kristy: 9:08

Ooh.

Angie: 9:08

I'm uncomfortable on the topic, but No, let's get into it. So like if you, you and I or any of the poop trips, like if you type into Google, why do people cheat? At least for me, I don't, I don't know how, I think Google like produces different results most of the time. But most of the results are articles from pages like Psychology Today or like very well mind, like websites that are very much dedicated into providing resources for things that are related to psychology. So it's interesting because I'm pretty sure when I was younger or maybe when you were, when even when we were teens, if you Googled why do people cheat or Yeah. Googled, why do people cheat? What you would get is like magazine articles like from Cosmo or from 17, but I was just very taken back. I guess I haven't really Googled why do people cheat that much before? So when I, when I Googled it and it was all these articles done by doctors of psychology, I was like, Oh, okay. So it is like a very well accepted notion, not notion, a well accepted idea or theory that cheating is psychological

Kristy: 10:23

Before we get into that, how would you define cheating?

Angie: 10:28

Oh man.

Kristy: 10:29

Cause I feel like everybody has a different, It's kind of like those baseball bases, Like what is first base, second base, third base. I feel like people have kind of different definitions of what that means. I find it the same. When we talk about cheating, people might have different definitions of what cheating, what constitutes as cheating. So in your books, what constitutes as cheat?

Angie: 10:52

So I've read books about this after, I was cheated on, so I'm gonna turn the question on you and ask what your definition of cheating is, and then I'll tell you what mine is.

Kristy: 11:04

That makes me uncomfortable.

Angie: 11:07

care.

Kristy: 11:10

Okay, So, okay, Angie has experience being cheated on. I have experienced being the person who cheated It makes me very uncomfortable to define cheating because as a person who had. Cheated, my definition is gonna be very self protecting.

Angie: 11:36

That's okay. Would it? So we wanna encourage, I was gonna say, would it make you more comfortable if I shared first, but our whole. The whole notion of our podcast is making the uncomfortable, comfortable, so,

Kristy: 11:51

Okay. Okay, So how about this? Okay, so I have a definition for when I was engaging the cheating act, and then I have a definition for like now, right now. Okay. So I used to define cheating as something very physical and depending on. The situation. Usually I would defend, Defend, I would. Wow, that's, Is that like a Freudian slip right there? I'm trying to defend myself. Okay. So I would define cheating as like, having sex with someone that you weren't dating. So if you held hands with someone or if you kissed somebody else. And that doesn't really count as cheating. And it, it means, so I once had the definition of to cheat means you go all the way physically with another person.

Angie: 12:46

Gotcha.

Kristy: 12:48

We'll leave it at that for now.

Angie: 12:49

And what about now?

Kristy: 12:51

Now I define cheating as, Whew, this is really tough. Feel like it's hard without having context of, you know,

Angie: 13:01

Yes. Okay, so that's exactly my answer. What is cheating? It depends. So before, before I got cheated on, my definition was that if you go all the way and have sex with someone you're not dating, that's cheating. So we used to have the exact same definition, and now my answer is, well, it depends. And a lot of that came from the fact that I tried to understand exactly what cheating was. And in my research and analysis, obviously I came to the terms that, okay, it depends and if you Google infidelity, a lot of those was very interest. If you Google infidelity, the first thing that comes up is the Wikipedia definition, and it says that infidelity is a violation of a couple's emotional and or sexual exclusivity that commonly results in feelings of anger, sexuality, and rivalry. What constitutes as infidelity depends on expectations within the relationships, and I think that's why I was like, Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Kristy: 14:14

I actually really like that. It depends on the expectation within the relationship because every relationship is different and we all, you know, we would have different expectations within each bubble of our relationship. And see, this is why you need to communicate because we can't expect the other person to have the same expectations you do. But I digress.

Angie: 14:32

Yeah, so, So there you have it. We actually have the exact same definition, past and present. Isn't that interesting?

Kristy: 14:40

that is, that is really interesting.

Angie: 14:42

Okay. Now I have something really interesting to ask.

Kristy: 14:45

Okay. Okay.

Angie: 14:47

You said that you have cheated on somebody, but you said that while when that had happened, your definition was that cheating only includes if you went all the way to have sex with somebody. So, So

Kristy: 15:00

What's your question,

Angie: 15:02

what did you do? Did you have

Kristy: 15:04

I cheated.

Angie: 15:05

else?

Kristy: 15:06

Correct.

Angie: 15:07

Oh, okay, Gotcha. Because there have been moments where I had done something that probably would not have made my, the person I was dating at the time, very happy, so I never had sex with another person while dating someone. But I have had, I don't see that's the, It's hard. It's hard to, like, I have had like intense flirting with other people to the point where I forget that I have a boyfriend where people become shocked that I have a boyfriend. And I have thought about this, like as I got older, like, Oh, does that constitute as cheating? But then my defense is like, well, at the time, to me, that's not cheating Because my definition was like, This isn't cheating. So my, my expectation was, it's not cheating

Kristy: 15:59

But what was your partner's expectation?

Angie: 16:02

Well, I don't know. We never had a conversation about it. This was like my first real boyfriend.

Kristy: 16:08

So this episode already makes me super uncomfortable because one, I, I don't think I have ever really, it only a small, very, very small, small, small, small group of people know that I have cheated on someone. And, and I feel like this episode is gonna make me look real bad, Not just because of the cheating, but because I flirt all the fucking time regard. Like in any single relationship that I have been in, I, I, I am can be very flirtatious and. Sometimes, man, there have been times when I would purposely not make it known that I am dating someone. Yeah,

Angie: 17:00

Thank you for sharing that. I think that's really brave that you're saying that out loud because it would be really difficult to do that.

Kristy: 17:11

thanks.

Angie: 17:12

right now? What are you thinking?

Kristy: 17:14

Well, I obviously I'm uncomfortable, like my fingers are pretty clammy,

Angie: 17:20

Hm.

Kristy: 17:21

and, Okay. So I'm uncomfortable for a few reasons. the main one is the person that I cheated on, I don't know if they know that they were cheated. So I hope they never listened to this podcast.

Angie: 17:35

Yeah, but you, you've dated how many people, like, who

Kristy: 17:37

who knows?

Angie: 17:39

Yeah.

Kristy: 17:40

I've

Angie: 17:46

didn't mean that way. Also happened a while ago. Didn't it happened when you were younger?

Kristy: 17:55

Yes. Well, I mean all my exes happened when I was younger. Okay. So, okay, so

Angie: 18:02

Okay, let's come

Kristy: 18:03

So, so that's me, That's me defining like, you know, if we were ever to play a game, never have I ever have, never have you ever cheated? I will, I will like drink to that the thing. For the longest time, I always just associated my infidelity with that time, that physical cheating, that I had sex with someone else while I was dating another person. Now, as I got older and more mature, I have come to realize that I have cheated in other ways as well, and that I have emotionally cheated on people. And that may or may not have even been worse than the physical cheating. And I didn't used to consider that cheating because it didn't fall into that black and white definition of you have sex with somebody else. So what I have done emotionally did not count as cheating. But now, I am accepting that actually, Kristy, you have been unfaithful multiple times and some of these incidents includes emotionally cheating on another person,

Angie: 19:15

What's emotional?

Kristy: 19:17

having romantic feelings for somebody else while you are dating another person and wanting to pursue those romantic feelings.

Angie: 19:27

in my book. That's not emotional cheating.

Kristy: 19:30

Oh,

Angie: 19:31

book, in my book, emotional cheating is basically having an affair with someone else except there's no physical aspects to it. So you talk to them late at night, you tell them things you don't tell your partner like it's more than just you having a crush on somebody. To me, that's what emotional cheating is. In my past relationships, I've definitely had crushes on someone else while dating. And I have also questioned myself whether or not that's emotional cheating. And I have read many articles about what emotional cheating is, and my conclusion was it's only emotional cheating if it becomes some sort of a, it's like an established relationship like the other person knows or something like that. But I completely understand where you're coming from because I still feel guilty about having had those feelings, having had romantic feelings for other people.

Kristy: 20:28

Okay, so. I don't count crushes.

Angie: 20:31

Okay,

Kristy: 20:32

I guess it depends on like how deep that crush is.

Angie: 20:34

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, well now everything is like

Kristy: 20:38

it all depends on context.

Angie: 20:40

there. It's, everything's a spectrum.

Kristy: 20:43

I would say. oh man, I don't know anymore this, this episode's making me question everything. I, I had one dated someone, and it was a serious relationship. And then I also had a work crush while dating this person. And it was like, to me it was a harmless, like it's a work crush, you know, like nothing's gonna come out of this. Like, it's not like I'm gonna dump my boyfriend and just like, go with this work colleague. in fact, like I have told the person I was dating at the time, like, Hey, so and so is my work crush, you know, And I don't like, I feel like that's, like an innocent type thing, you know? It's, it's, I guess it

Angie: 21:29

It, it works like you can't help

Kristy: 21:31

There's innocent flirting. Yeah, there's innocent flirting. You can't help it. There's work crushes. That's okay. Like you're not, you're not actually gonna leave the other person, you know, the partner that you're, you're with. And then there's like, Oh, I really like this person and I wanna have a relationship with them and I'm gonna go on. Air quotes, I'm doing air quotes right now. Everybody hangouts, I'm gonna hang out with them. And it's just the two of us hanging out knowing that you have mutually strong feelings for each other and there may or may not be lying involved. You know, like I feel like that is part of emotional cheating.

Angie: 22:12

Okay. Yes, that I. in my books. That would also be emotional cheating. So in my various readings, I came across this new, new, what is that about? New fangled term called micro cheating.

Kristy: 22:27

oh my gosh. All these

Angie: 22:29

know,but it was, it was like, term that was described by, like a psychologist that does couple counseling. So I figure that they, know a lot more

Kristy: 22:42

Okay, so what's micro? What's micro cheating?

Angie: 22:45

micro cheating is small acts of crossing boundaries that you shouldn't cross. Like hanging out with someone without the explicit yeah, or like going to happy hour after work, just so you can be like hanging out with the coworker. I think one on one, if you're, if you're really going one on one, you're both kind of aware of the feelings then that it might. In my opinion would be actually emotional cheating. But if you're like, you're like, Oh, like coworkers are going a happy hour. You don't normally go, but this time you wanna go because he's gonna be there and you wanna be there too. That would be considered micro cheating. Like doing these little acts, that is still a violation of trust because now you're acting upon your feelings. And these, even though that itself might not be something that would hurt somebody like micro cheating, essentially is doing something that the action might not hurt the person you're with, but it kind of is going down a path of where it's going towards something

Kristy: 23:50

It's like gateway cheating.

Angie: 23:51

Yeah, like gateway

Kristy: 23:53

It's like gateway drugs.

Angie: 23:55

my

Kristy: 23:57

You.

Angie: 24:04

So, okay, so this next day you, you know, you're gonna be full on cheating and you're gonna be addicted, and I mean, addiction and cheating, there's a lot of overlap as well, but that's a completely different conversation. so this article, which I will share in the show notes, of course, so this was a clinical psychologist named Sabrina Romanoff. So her differentiation is, in micro cheating, you might engage in behaviors like liking their social media post we're repeating repeatedly, visiting their profile that don't necessarily require re reciprocity. Like it doesn't require the other person to reciprocate. it doesn't also require emotional connection. So maybe that's not gateway cheating. So that's like very minor. And then I think, and then her definition for emotional affair is that it involves more emotional investment and then there's involvement from both parties like you and the affaire. And then gateway cheating is something we just came up with. So you know, hashtag TM gateway. TM gateway cheating TM 2022.

Kristy: 25:15

have you engaged in my crew cheating before?

Angie: 25:18

Yes. No hesitation.

Kristy: 25:20

Would you like to talk about it?

Angie: 25:21

actually I've engaged in gateway cheating before

Kristy: 25:24

Okay. What's gateway Even though we just made up the word, let's define. Okay.

Angie: 25:29

That example I just gave you was exactly what I did. Yeah. So in one of my relation long term relationships, I also had a work crush and. I got along with him very well. we obviously you spend more time, This was like before Covid, so you go into the office every day. So we're spending like eight hours, 40 hours a week of your waking hours, with, with this person. And like, he sat right next to me and then later on he sat right behind me. And we would always get coffee together, maybe get breakfast together, get lunch together. sometimes the two of us, sometimes there's three of us, four of us. but I, I never went to happy hours because I didn't like the rest of the team. He was also just like a fresh breath, a breath of fresh air, because I didn't like my tea

Kristy: 26:20

I'm glad that's, that's right there.

Angie: 26:25

I mean, I wouldn't know. It's not like we had never did anything physical.

Kristy: 26:29

Okay. If someone doesn't have fresh breath, you don't have to do anything physical to know if.

Angie: 26:36

That's true. Oh man. But yes, he was a breath of fresh air because I really didn't like anybody on my team. And when he joined I was like, Oh my God, somebody I actually like connect with, but like connected almost too good And then I definitely developed feelings for him. I thought about what it would be like if I had left my current partner and dated him. It seemed like the feelings were mutual, but it was never explicitly communicated, obviously. and then it got to the point where like if he was away for the day, our boss would be like, Hey, where is blank? And I'm like, I don't know. Like they expected that. They're like, Oh, I thought you guys are friends. I'm like, Oh, I guess we are But no, I don't know where he is. I. The only thing, the thing is that, the thing is like I never really thought about what I did as horrible because I never hung out with him outside of work situations. So I had never crossed that boundary. we had never crossed that boundary and I don't think he would've let us, knowing that I had a boyfriend. But I had seriously considered if I should have pursued that opportunity instead,

Kristy: 27:54

And what made you make the decision to not pursue.

Angie: 27:59

because I was like, Well, I know my partner better. I've known him longer what I know about this person. I only know they're good. I don't know. They're bad. I don't live with. I don't know what they're like on a bad day. I don't know what they're like on an actual date. I don't know what kind of boyfriend they're gonna be like. So I had logically convinced myself to not pursue it because there were so many unknowns. Of course, in hindsight, I'm like, okay, that probably meant that there was something in my relationship that was lacking that I wasn't getting. And now, and then when I did think about it in hindsight, like after the relationship had ended, I was like, Oh, it was mental stimulation. Like I had never really mentally connected. Well, at least it felt like that mental stimulation was fading because, And also like admiration and respect was fading as well. So, but I had a lot of admiration and respect for my colleague and he, he was really funny, very intelligent. And we, yeah, we connected on like mentally. I even remember, like, this was funny because there was one other coworker who I love, but he was like almost never there cuz he was kind of like, I don't know what the word is, all over the place. and he was like, for a period of time he was my work bestie. but not in like a husband kind of way like this other guy was that. So the guy, I had actually a romantic feelings for people called him my work husband. Let's call him Jay. Let's call him Jay. Yeah. so Jay was, Yeah, so, so a, a different colleague had pointed out like, I don't understand why you're attracted to Jay. He is nothing like your boyfriend. I don't see anything in common between the two of them, except that they're both British and, that's the funny thing is like, how did he like, It was such a weird, like when he brought that up, I was like really taken aback. Like what? I've never told him that I had feelings for Jay. Like how does he know? But apparently it was obvious. So I guess in hindsight, would that be emotional cheating? I don't know. I still don't really know.

Kristy: 30:17

I, I don't know, and I don't feel like I am, I am the right person to answer that.

Angie: 30:23

Maybe not so much an emotional fair as an emotional slang,

Kristy: 30:27

Mm.

Angie: 30:29

but yeah. So what had made me decided not to pursue it? Just, I don't know. I think I'm just risk averse, I didn't wanna like abandon something that was like a sure thing for something that I didn't Ohio would turn out. Which is funny because I ended up being cheated on like in a way worse method, than that. But at the time when this. Romantic feelings had developed for somebody else. where from where I was sitting, it was like, okay, well it's probably just a word crush. probably doesn't mean anything. But sometimes I still think about him, not like, Oh, I need to go pursue him. But like, oh, like I had done, like I was naive and I didn't really know what my feelings were.

Kristy: 31:17

When you say like you think of behind you, do you mean like, Oh, like I wonder how he's doing

Angie: 31:22

Yeah. Sometimes I'll be like, Oh, I wonder how he's doing. But I think most of the time it's like, like, how did that happen? Like, what exactly happened? And like, cuz I never really delve deep into exactly what happened or how. I don't know. I think, I don't really know how to describe it because it's not like if you have an actual relationship to somebody, it starts and it ends. So when you have like a crush on somebody or when you have feelings for somebody, whether or not you're in a relationship already or not, then it's like wishy washy. So sometimes, sometimes I'm like, Oh, maybe he is like the one that got away, except I know he isn't because we have nothing in common of work. So

Kristy: 32:15

Okay, so I have a few things to say here. I think it's totally, I think it's, I think it's totally natural for you to think about like, oh, like, like randomly, I wonder how he's doing because he sounded like an important person in your life. Regardless if we call it emotional cheating or not. Like you saw this person every day at work. You clearly had a very good relationship with them.

Angie: 32:38

Mm-hmm.

Kristy: 32:39

Romance aside or not, it was still like a, an established relationship. And I think when you have an established relationship with anybody and then they disappear from your life. They'll pop into your mind from time to time and, and you'll wonder about them and you hope you know they're doing well, kind of a thing. So I think that's just super, like just a human thing to do.

Angie: 33:01

That's true. Cuz even when those romantic feelings subsided, I would still be like, Oh, like it's, I, like I miss talking to him. Or like, if we bumped into each other in the row, we'd be like, Hi. Like, we like hug each other. And he would do the European kiss on the cheek thing, which didn't help at the time, but you know, it is what it is.

Kristy: 33:24

have you ever thought of other people who might have been the one that got away?

Angie: 33:29

No, have you?

Kristy: 33:31

No,

Angie: 33:32

I don't actually think he was the one that got away. I just mean like, you know how sometimes people think about, Oh, the one that got away, Except that, that's not how I view him. That's just,

Kristy: 33:42

or like, maybe like it's more like, Oh, what if

Angie: 33:45

Yeah. It's more like a, what if, I think the ones where people feel like they have, they see somebody as the one that got away is essentially they feel some sort of regret or they're clinging too hard on history on the past. That's what I would feel like. Okay. This is like super interesting, but we're also kind of getting away from the topic of infidelity. But you're the one that's editing, so up to you how you wanna work this in.

Kristy: 34:12

I, I, I wanna go with where the conversation naturally. Is there somewhere you wanna go or is there, is there a place of curiosity that you would like to visit with this topic? Don't feel bordered by our original, topic.

Angie: 34:27

So there's nobody that you had ever felt like the one that got away

Kristy: 34:32

I think every single person that I've dated did, was meant to be there in my life at that time. And whether or not I broke someone's heart or if they broke my heart, it was just all meant to be. And it's all gonna sound like, I don't know, woo, woo stuff, but I, I just feel like, like it was how the universe had intended. And I just hope all the best for for them. And I don't think I would feel like, Oh, what if things turned out differently or blah, blah, blah.

Angie: 35:07

Yeah. No, I, I, I think I'm on the same wavelength as you. I definitely have moments where it's like, Oh, I wonder what would've happened if. Blah, blah, blah. Like, what if I did leave my, my relationship and pursue this colleague? Like what would've happened? Like what if, kind of thing. But it's not like I see him as like, it's not like I actually see him as the one that got away. I think that term is very loaded because it kind of comes from like movies and TV and it's always about like the main characters and it really idealizes a relationship or a person

Kristy: 35:49

I mean, it makes it seem like there's like the one in the world, and that's not something that I, I believe in. And, and I wanna clarify like the phrase, the one who got away. I see it as a very different phrase as what if I had gone out with this person? Like, I see that as totally different things. So the one that got away is just not something that I identify with is not, it's not a phrase that I get. I mean, I get, but like, I don't, I don't, get, you know, or I don't believe Yeah. Unless, unless, unless less. We're talking about Mr. Lobster, but you know, we don't know. Who knows, Right? That's in the future. And that's really close to me right now. So obviously I have a very biased and, you know, like I have sunglasses on kind of a thing. now the phrase what if the, what if phrase that's different because that I don't care whether or not the relationship worked out or not. I, you know, it's to me how I define a what if phrase would be, I wonder, would've been like to have pursued, I wonder would've been like to date that person without thinking like, Oh, that's my forever person.

Angie: 37:02

Yes.

Kristy: 37:02

Cuz it may or may not have worked out, but I was, I would've just been curious to know what it'd been like to date that person. And that's the phrase that I'm trying to say. I haven't felt. Don't think, or at least, I don't know. I mean, it's not something I thought about before. And I think the difference here is because I actually did end up dating my work crush. I, I did do the what if Therefore I don't There is no what if question. Yeah. Because I walk through that door, I to choose your own adventure book. I flip to that page.

Angie: 37:40

So you were more brave than I am. And, how did that work out? The what if, were you happy that you made the decision? Were you happy that you made that decision?

Kristy: 37:49

Yes. But it, it also, that relationship made me realize that, oh, I had emotionally cheated on the person that I was with originally. And That wasn't something that I had realized before because I still stuck to my original definition of what cheating meant was that, oh, I didn't, I didn't have anything physical with this person. We didn't do anything quote unquote wrong. So we didn't cheat and we had made sure, my first relationship or the, the person that I was dating before, that our relationship had ended before I pursued anything with the other person. because I felt like I did all those things, then it didn't constitute us cheating until years later when I reflected. I'm like, No, but that. Just because I didn't physically cheat and just because I quote unquote checked all the boxes and made sure, you know, we had broken up before I had gone out with this other person and blah, blah, blah. You know, trying to, basically trying to like keep my hands clean. Like I, I did all these things to keep my hands clean, thinking that my hands were clean, but really I had, I had emotionally cheated, so my hands were never clean, even though I thought they were.

Angie: 39:08

Hmm, that's very mature of you. And that's kind of where I have somewhat settled on my colleague's situation from back then as well is that I think I did emotionally cheat. It wasn't an emotional affair because it, there wasn't really anything that was like reciprocated. I think the feelings were there for both of us, but it wasn't a situation where like I would confide in him or he would confide in me cuz we had never taken those interactions outside of work related items, work related situations. But, I had acted certain actions that I had decided to make, that I made the choice of doing, were in hopes that it would lead to something. So even though nothing had actually happened and I didn't actually pursue explicitly, I have put myself in situations where I hoped something would happen. So for me, it's still kind of like, I, like I, I, I think this conversation's making me go, Yep, it was, but before this conversation, I was kind of like, it depends on the definition, you know, Like I, it was also kind of me trying to like absolve myself of any guilt. but I, I even came clean when I broke up with my ex. I was. It was when I was berating him for cheating and then I was like, Yeah, like I had a crush on blah, blah, blah. But I never acted upon it. And he was like, I knew it. I knew you did. I was like, Oh, okay. But at the time I was like, I don't fucking care. Like the fuck outta my life. Right. But in hindsight, you know, after having processed everything in the last few years, it's like, okay. And then having this conversation where you're talking about your experience, and you did end up going into a relationship with that coworker. I didn't. But just because we didn't end up pursuing a relationship doesn't mean that I didn't emotionally cheat.

Kristy: 41:21

You asked me if I, Okay, I'm, I'm paraphrasing. Maybe you didn't ask me this, but how I had interpreted was you asked me if I re like, did I regret making that decision? Was that a question that you had asked me? And just nodding. So yes. Okay. and I initially said, No, I don't regret making the decision of dating my coworker. what I do regret is,

Angie: 41:48

Hurting the other person.

Kristy: 41:51

Yes, We talked about how work crushes sometimes you just can't help it. It's proximity, It's, you know, there's just a lot of charming people in the world. Okay. And a lot of times they're innocent and I think that's okay. It's, I think it's okay to have some innocent crushes and innocent flirting, but I think there is a boundary and, not just physical boundary, but an emotional boundary. And I regret crossing that emotional boundary before I had. Not even like broken up with my, with the person I was dating, but just, you know, respect, like make having a, a respectable distance before I even decide to choose to date colleague. Am I making any sense?

Angie: 42:55

No, you're making sense.

Kristy: 42:58

And I think that's what I regret, is that everything was too close, too muddled, and it caused a lot of pain

Angie: 43:06

Hmm.

Kristy: 43:07

other person that I, I didn't fully appreciate until, until later.

Angie: 43:13

Actually one of the drivers of why I made the decision not to pursue, one of them was what I said was the uncertainty. The other one was I didn't want to bring that kind of pain into both the person I was dating and myself, cuz it's pain for everybody so that was a big thing for me as well. Do you? Okay. I don't know. I don't know if I should ask this. Well, why not? I know, I know we don't wanna dwell on the past, but if you can go back in time, would you change, I know that you would've still decided to, date your coworker instead, move nine step but day your coworker, period, But what do you think would, like, how do you think, rephrase that now with all the knowledge and reflection and

Kristy: 44:05

all the

Angie: 44:06

the, all the wisdom you have gathered in the past, blah, blah, blah, years. if you were to go back, what would you do

Kristy: 44:14

I would keep the, I. I would identify that these are two different relationships. The person that I was stating at the time, we were having a lot of issues unrelated to my coworker. We were just having issues within our own re relationship. you know, that thing that you said, you know, when, when something is lacking and then you latch onto somebody else? I, I would've want to not use my coworker as,

Angie: 44:48

Has a life buoy.

Kristy: 44:50

as something to like patch the hole. You know, I, I would want to have seen these two people. Very separately, like I would've wanted to deal with the current relationship that I was having, the troubled relationship deal with. That whether that be, I mean, I don't think it was at a place where we could fix it like we needed to break up regardless if the coworker existed or not. It just so happened that they existed and it made things more complicated. So I wish I would have separated that more clearly, more distinctly, and deal with the issues that I had with the current person. Let let that process mu over, give time for that and, and grieve over that relationship. Let the both of us grieve over the end of that relationship before I even indulge in thinking about starting another relat.

Angie: 45:47

Yeah.

Kristy: 45:48

So I guess the main thing is if, if I had the chance to go back and do it differently, I would separate the two relationship and just be very distinct about it. And not even like care or let myself, Yeah. Indulge in what my colleague or the potential relationship with my colleague would be like, but focus on the current relationship that I already have. And by focusing, I don't mean fixing, like properly breaking up with this person and then properly having a grieving process. then before I even move on,

Angie: 46:26

That's really well said.

Kristy: 46:29

was it cuz it felt like I was just

Angie: 46:33

No, it was really

Kristy: 46:33

well? Like I had fist bones in my mouth or something.

Angie: 46:37

To me, it was really well said because that's exactly what I would do if I were to go back as well. same thing, like it, to me it was like, you're right, like the coworker was just there. but to me it wasn't like a reminder that, hey, there's problems in your relationship. It was like, Oh, look, look at this new shiny object now. You don't have to be depressed about something else that's going on that's maybe bothering you. Um, yes, a distraction. And, and that's, and I don't wanna reduce that person down to just a distraction because I generally had feelings for them and I respected them and I admired them. But it was definitely like something to distract me from the fact that there were actual fundamental problems with the relationship that I was in. And if I were to go back, I would do all those things, except I don't even know if I could do all those things, because I don't know if I would be strong enough to do that, to pry myself out of a relationship, not knowing what's gonna happen in the future. It's scary. And I think that's why I couldn't do it. I was like, Yeah, it, it was just too scary of a thought for me.

Kristy: 47:55

I think it's a very scary thought for a lot of people, and that's why so many people end up staying in relationships that aren't great for them.

Angie: 48:08

Or they end up cheating because they don't know how to get out of the current relationship and they sometimes self sabotage to you know, and then they take their mistress to a Harry Styles concert hoping to get caught.

Kristy: 48:26

Okay. I don't know that reference.

Angie: 48:28

Oh, Ned took, Alex to a Harry Styles concert and they got recognized and then later they went to a club and made out. And that was when like a fan took a video of it and sent it to Alex's fiance. That's how the whole thing

Kristy: 48:45

I didn't know about the Harry Styles thing. I, I mean, knew about the club because that's the video. Like that's, that's the Juicy Juice. Okay, gotcha.

Angie: 48:55

So, yeah, so I, I would like to think that if I were to go back to that exact same place that I would do those things that you had just said, I would like to think that I could do that, but knowing where I was then I definitely wouldn't have been able to do it.

Kristy: 49:13

I mean, I say these things, but I don't, I don't know if I could have

Angie: 49:18

But what you're doing right now is very brave.

Kristy: 49:20

what

Angie: 49:20

I find what you're doing right now with Mr. Lobster more brave than driving across Western Canada. Now they are both brave, okay? Driving across Western Canada and sleeping in your car and you know, with the, with the risk that some random dude's gonna break your windows and kidnap you, or some moose is gonna come along and smash your windows to try to eat your clothes. Like, those are all very scary things. And the fact that you did that, that's very brave. But this must star lobsters thing that's even more brave in my opinion.

Kristy: 49:56

Well, thank you. I don't, I don't know what to say.

Angie: 49:59

fyi, if you haven't already heard episode 45, that's where, Kristy talks about what she learned from breaking up a six year relationship. So that's what I'm referencing when I say that. what you did with Mr. Lobster is super brave because I could never do that. Even now, I don't think I have the, strength to do that.

Kristy: 50:21

Dang. you. Thanks. I feel so seen and so, so recognized and, and for the poop tubes, who didn't know? I, drove across Western Canada to come home from Toronto to Vancouver, in case you, like, you probably understood the reference by it now, but, that's what I've been doing in the last four weeks.

Angie: 50:43

has it only been four weeks? That feels longer,

Kristy: 50:44

Well, I mean, if you include Newfoundland, then it's six weeks.

Angie: 50:48

Oh yeah, it did include Newfoundland, so it did, You know, I'm just glad that you weren't, assaulted by any me mooses, Muai. That sounds, that sounds like a

Kristy: 50:59

Anyways, any anyways, so how do we feel about, about cheating and infidelity now that we've had a conversation?

Angie: 51:09

now that we've had a conversation about it and now that we have established that, you have cheated in the traditional sense and emotional sense, and I have cheated in the emotional sense and I have been cheated on in the traditional and emotional sense, where do I stand on the subject? I think it's just such a complicated topic, which is why there is no right answer for what is cheating and why do people cheat. I think it's just. depends on the relationship. And I think going back to that definition that I had first read out loud from Wikipedia, that it's all about expectations. I think that's where it comes in. How, how do I feel about it? I feel like the healthiest thing to do would be to sit down with your partner and talk about what each of you would consider as infidelity. Now, whether or not that's something I would actually be able to do, I don't think so because it's, See, it's like so awkward. Like why are you asking that? It's like asking, what the rules of the games are so you can try to find your way to bend the rules and win a game. But relationships aren't games.

Kristy: 52:18

well, well well, okay, so this is this. This is what I think now. I agree. Everything comes down to context and it, it all depends. We can never understand why another person decided to cheat, so we cannot make any assumptions or frankly, any real judgements on Ned Fulmer and Alex. I don't remember her last name. And because I think it's really complicated, I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, like I'm not defending the actual cheating, but I just think it is so complicated and it's different in every relationship. It's different between each person about why and what the motivations are and et cetera. I think a lot of times when we see infidelity in the headlines, and not even in the headlines, but when we hear about infidelity, even within our own social networks, we automatically jump to judgment. We automatically think that the person,

Angie: 53:32

Is like an evil human being.

Kristy: 53:34

like we reduce the situation, we reduce the human beings that are involved in the story. And I'm not defending. Infidelity itself, but I'm just saying it's important to be mindful that it's a lot more complicated

Angie: 53:54

And it's a lot more nuance nuanced, like it's a lot more nuanced than like bad good. They cheat, they bad person, they not cheat, they good person. I'm sure there are lots of horrible people out there who have never cheated, like serial killers, but you know, one of the things I wanted to also point out is like, I think the degree also changes things like the degree, I think the part where like, Not only are you breaking somebody's trust, but are you being duplicity? Like are you, are you being duplicity? does your action impact other people's lives negatively and like the consequences? And are you gaslighting people? Are you lying to people? Like, are you being a hypocrite? I think those all play into how bad the situation is, so it's not infidelity itself. That's the whole story. I think it's like you have to look at the whole picture so where I'm coming from is like this whole situation with the try guys. The reason why it's so bad is because he has put the company that they created in jeopardy. It was, not only was it like a, an affair, like that's for personal relationship. It also broke the trust in professional terms. And because they're like public figures, it, like, it damaged a lot of people's trust. Like even just onlookers, right? Well, like, oh shit. Like, like now, now I don't believe in love anymore. I know people joke about that, but it does impact people's view on trust. And in my, in my experience, a big part of why I was so traumatized by my experience is that there was so much gas lighting in hypocrisy. because I had tried to break up with my partner, before I even found out about the cheating, but he asked me to put faith in the relationship. So obviously I felt like a fucking idiot after the fact, right? So it's like, I think that also that's where I, that's what I mean when I say that it's very nuanced. Like infidelity itself is not a good course of action. But I don't reduce Kristy down to a bad person because she had cheated on her ex-boyfriend. I don't reduce somebody else I know who I know was the mistress to a married man. I don't reduce them down to, that and go act, because again, depends on the whole picture.

Kristy: 56:18

You know what I love about this is, or this conversation, I don't, I don't love infidelity, everything that you're saying today on this episode comes from being the person who has been cheated on. And then everything that I'm saying consciously or subconsciously is coming from the place of someone who has done the cheating. And even though we come from like 180. Positions. I feel like at the end of the day, we agree with everything that we're saying. Like, look for these things, look for the hypocrisy. Are we, are you lying? Are, is there lying involved? I'm saying like, are you lying? Because I'm coming from the cheater's perspective. Like, if you think you are a cheater, these are the things of, these are the signs to look out for. And Angie is like, If you think you're being cheated, these are the signs to look out for. And they're like the same, You know, like, are you being a hypocrite? Are you lying? And earlier Angie was saying how, you know, like sit down with your partner and define what infidelity is. Define what cheating is. But that's so awkward. It's like trying to see how far can I go? Where do we draw the line so I can like know where the boundaries are. But I think for me, even though I, at the time when I emotionally cheated, I was telling myself I wasn't doing anything wrong I knew I was doing a bad thing. Like I knew I was doing something that wasn't right and it didn't feel right because I was sneaking around and I was telling white lies, or I would be telling the truth, but, but I would make it seem like it's, well, it's not bent. Like I would be straight up about it. I'd be like, Oh, I'm going out with this person and it's just gonna be the two of us. You know? Or I straight up be like, Yes, this is my work crush and we're gonna hang out like I was. And I felt like that was me. Being a good communicator, being honest, but I made it sound like it wasn't a big deal, when in fact it was a big deal because I would get very excited to see this person, you know, I would like think about what clothes I wear and what makeup, or not even what makeup, but like just put on some fucking makeup, you know, and and I would feel, maybe it's guilt, but I would not feel good about doing those things, even though I had told my boyfriend at the time what was happening, thinking that that was okay. Thinking that that was me being a good communicator, being an honest person. So at the end of the day, it's like, you know, these are just some of the checklists that both Angie and I. Felt, were relevant in our situations. The hypocrisy, the, the lying, maybe lying, the overcompensation and the gut feelings for me, because at the end of the day, even though I was telling myself I wasn't doing anything wrong, I still felt like I was

Angie: 59:10

I.

Kristy: 59:11

doing something right.

Angie: 59:13

Yeah. And I think the, from the other side as well, like I had all these gut feelings that something was wrong. and when I would question the other person, this is where the gas lighting came in, that I was made to feel like my gut feelings were wrong. And I don't know, I guess gut feelings are a lot more important than we think. And I guess, you know, if something feels wrong, it might be a good time to have a conversation about it.

Kristy: 59:37

Yep.

Angie: 59:38

Like maybe even before you do anything. Or if you realize that you went to happy Hour solely because you want to spend more time with a certain person that's not your significant other, maybe you should have a conversation with your partner about your relat.

Kristy: 1:00:02

Okay. That's all we got. So anyways, that's, that's, that's me being a cheater,

Angie: 1:00:12

I wouldn't use that word to describe you, and I don't think you should either. You're not a cheater, but you had cheated on. Yeah. not a cheater.

Kristy: 1:00:22

yes. It's not a identity thing, it's an action thing.

Angie: 1:00:25

Yeah. It's not an identity. It is action thing. It's also non-current.

Kristy: 1:00:31

Thank you,

Angie: 1:00:32

Oh my God. There was one analogy that I was, that I forgot about that I just remember. Okay. So in Chinese, when you say somebody had cheated, you say that they went off track, like off of the railroad track

Kristy: 1:00:45

Can you say it?

Angie: 1:00:47

So what I had rail was like, okay, when somebody goes off track, do you blame the wheels, the track or the scenery? If you blame the scenery, then you're blaming like the mistress or whatever. but really what you should be looking at is the, either the wheels, like either the train itself or the train tracks. because that causes a train to go off tracks. Not the scenery,

Kristy: 1:01:10

I thought of the inductor.

Angie: 1:01:11

conductor. Well,

Kristy: 1:01:13

The person or who's driving the train.

Angie: 1:01:15

this is like, you know, an electric train with no driver. So think of a sky train. They also have a conductor, but you know what I mean? Okay. You're, you're making this analogy. You're ruining the analogy. You are ruining the analogy. But also like, obviously mistresses are not just the scene race. Sometimes they are because they don't know that you're in a relationship. but yeah. Anyway, so the analogy doesn't always apply. What it's trying to say is focus on the two people in the relationship, rather than just on something else. Because then that'll always make it harder and make you focus on the wrong things. And that was one of the advice I got when trying to. Process. The cheating, the, the being cheated on is don't focus on the part where like the cheating happened, focus on what happened that had led to the cheating so that you can process the downfalls of the relationship and move on. And I was like, Ah, yes, the train and the train track.

Kristy: 1:02:09

That is an excellent way to cap off today's episode.

Angie: 1:02:13

Thank you listeners for listening to this episode about infidelity. Until next time.

Kristy: 1:02:19

Bye.

Angie: 1:02:20

Bye. It just sounds like you're peeing

Kristy: 1:02:55

I know.

Angie: 1:02:57

It's not like you haven't peed during the recording before, but this time you're, Yeah. Um,

Kristy: 1:03:03

I was just concerned because of the noise.

Angie: 1:03:06

okay.