17. Exploring Our Sexual Identities ft. Karen Zheng (MX Asian American) - Part 1

How are our sexual identities formed? Is it from the media that we consume like magazines and porn? And how do we go about unlearning the dysfunctional and destructive ideas around sexuality and body image? **Content Warning**: anorexia nervosa and behaviours of disordered eating is discussed in this episode.

   Highlights:

• Learning about sex from magazines and porn
• Trauma from parents who enforce gender roles
• Karen’s journey in accepting her queer identity
• Religious beliefs and how they influence sexual taboos
• Inheriting body dysmorphia

   Takeaways:

• Closed-mindedness can hurt your loved ones
• Internalized homophobia can develop from parental pressure
• There are resources out there other than mainstream porn
• Different people want different experiences, there is no one size fits all
• You don’t need a diagnosis to improve your mental health

   Resources:

• Mx Asian American on Instagram
• Matt D’Avella on Youtube
• Chester 5000 XYV (NSFW)
• Curvy (NSFW)
• Strictly Dumpling (Mike Chen)

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Transcript

Angie & Kristy: 0:00

I had found your podcast when I was doing research around Asian-American driven podcast. Oh my God. Really? Yeah.

Karen Zheng: 0:08

Oh my God. Yeah. That is, that is what

Angie & Kristy: 0:10

happened.

Karen Zheng: 0:38

welcome to another

Angie & Kristy: 0:39

episode. If shit, we don't tell mom today, we have, I have Karen Zang, with us and she also hosts a podcast herself. and Asian Americans. So check her out Karen, why don't we kick it off by having you introduce yourself a little bit, and maybe tell our audience what your podcast is all

Karen Zheng: 0:57

about. hi everyone. My name is Karen. I am a queer first generation, Chinese American current undergraduate student at Dartmouth college. and I am the host of MX Asian American, which is a podcast where I bring on guests to talk about, all things, Asian American, like mental illness, like this podcast, but also other stuff like, pop culture. Queerness food, et cetera.

Angie & Kristy: 1:26

What does the MX stand for?

Karen Zheng: 1:27

it's just like a gender neutral term for mr or mrs.

Angie & Kristy: 1:33

Wow. Like w O M X, N yeah. Cool. Yeah. Cause you and I are both like. You know, we're hetero, we're like not really that familiar with that space. so thank you for educating. Yes. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons why I really wanted to have you on the show and we wanted to have you on the show is because we want to be able to have a platform to share more stories from different voices within the Asian diaspora, because it's not just one color. Right. But a lot of times in media, that's how we're portrayed as. Peanut all with one brush. So

Karen Zheng: 2:11

we'd

Angie & Kristy: 2:11

love to learn more from you, you know, from your stories, your background, and yeah.

Karen Zheng: 2:16

honestly, it was, it was kind of like, spontaneous kind of thing. I, I follow Matt have Avella on YouTube. He's like a content creator. He has his own podcast called ground-up show. One day a thought came to me and I was like, Hmm, he, yes, start this podcast. So why can't I just, or podcasts too? and I wasn't really in the Asian American podcast space, I would say, but I've been seeing like a lot of Asian American podcasts, like coming up recently. but yeah, I just got the idea all of a sudden, and then I asked my school for some funds and yeah. they bought all my equipment for me, which is nice.

Angie & Kristy: 2:55

That is so awesome. That's really cool. Yeah. We ask people for some money.

Karen Zheng: 3:01

Yeah. Schools have a lot of money. You could just finesse your way, right? Yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 3:07

That's really cool. what are you studying at school?

Karen Zheng: 3:10

I'm an English and creative writing major. mainly I write poetry.

Angie & Kristy: 3:14

Oh, wow. I'm not good with poetry at all. Really garbage with pushy.

Karen Zheng: 3:19

Just

Angie & Kristy: 3:21

it's such a, well, it's like a timeless art form, right? And those of us

Karen Zheng: 3:26

who can

Angie & Kristy: 3:26

consume it. Great. But those of us who can create it even better. So that's really amazing. So I noticed your last name is. Jen, right.

Karen Zheng: 3:34

That's it? Yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 3:35

Okay.

Karen Zheng: 3:35

Yeah. I was born here, so my parents are immigrants here. Right? Mix.

Angie & Kristy: 3:41

Yeah. Okay. So you're first generation American, yes. Yeah. That's right. So we are the same, Karen, you and I. My parents immigrated here. Andy, she was born in China. And then moved here when she was really young. So she counts herself as 1.5 generation immigrant. Yeah.

Karen Zheng: 4:03

Hey, okay.

Angie & Kristy: 4:06

I know it's really confusing, right? so many different phrases, I was like Asian American, which, you know, even though Christina and I are located in Canada, we still consider ourselves Asian American because our culture. Close. Right. And then there's like Chinese American and then there's just like Asian diaspora in general. but we're like a huge community, you know, like in every country I've ever been to, I've always seen some sort of Chinese or Asian population. So I think it's really cool that we can connect,

Karen Zheng: 4:36

from

Angie & Kristy: 4:36

across the continent and otherwise we would have never met each other. Right. So I think

Karen Zheng: 4:42

that's exactly.

Angie & Kristy: 4:43

Speaking of meeting each other. Oh my goodness. I actually don't really remember how we connected. I started to listen to your podcast and that's how. That's how I discovered you. And, and then I feel like we may have one. I don't know. I reached out one of us reached out to

Karen Zheng: 5:01

the other person and then we just started chatting. Yeah. I remember seeing your posts on, I don't remember what platform was cause there's so many groups now. but I think it was either agent creative network or Asian hustle network or

Angie & Kristy: 5:15

subtle Asian pod casters. So what are those?

Karen Zheng: 5:19

And I saw, y'alls post about y'alls a podcast and I was like really interested. cause I feel like we really need to talk about mental illness in the community. and other taboo topics. Yeah. So I, you know, DM Christie and we talked.

Angie & Kristy: 5:33

So what would you consider as a taboo topic that you would love for society to be. Talking about more of like untapped

Karen Zheng: 5:43

realized, mental illness for one and second. I'm actually looking for someone as a guest on my podcast. Talk about sex. Yes. Knowing that yourselves, and then masturbation, especially female masturbation. I think that's really important. what else in like sex education, stuff like that? Yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 6:05

Yeah. I mean, honestly, everything I've learned about sex is through media. Like when I was a teenager, I had a subscription to 17 magazine. I had Cosmo, Whoa. That's I was 16 year old Christie with like 16 days to pleasure a man, which is the worst, front page

Karen Zheng: 6:31

title.

Angie & Kristy: 6:32

That's what it was. Yeah. remember being too like embarrassed to buy cosmos because I'm like from page all, it's all these things like how to pleasure him, how to do this for him. And I'm always like what I don't, well, one, like I kind of want to know, but also I don't want to just buy that and hold that so shameful. I brought it to

Karen Zheng: 6:56

you. I got it. And share with all your friends. Totally. Yeah. I would like flip through and do all the quizzes, you know, like read all the 21 ways. Oh my God.

Angie & Kristy: 7:07

one thing I really appreciated about 17 magazine was that. It would just talk about things like what does a healthy vagina look like? take a mirror and go stand in your bathroom, put one leg on the toilet and like look down there. Right. And. My mom came into my room one day and 17 magazine, 17 magazine, pretty innocent on the front page. It's not Cosmo, but my mom just sat on the floor of my room and stuff, flipping through one of them. immediately, my face was turning red and I'm like, Oh my God, what is poverty? And then she kind of looks up at me and I'm like, Oh my gosh. She was like, This is very educational magazine is teaching you this stuff, but I'm

Karen Zheng: 7:50

glad she had such a positive

Angie & Kristy: 7:51

reaction to that because I think if my parents. So anything related to sex, they'll be like, don't have sex. You're going to die. You're pregnant, die, you know, or you are unpure and no one's going to want you. And like all these other things, you know, have you ever heard sex, sex?

Karen Zheng: 8:15

Okay.

Angie & Kristy: 8:17

Chatting with your parents about sex before.

Karen Zheng: 8:19

no, not at all. They do not under the words. it's kind of funny because they never talk about sex or anything related to that. all they've talked about was like the period talk, which is like, Oh, you might start getting red stuff down there. They don't talk to you about sex at all. But then when you're at the certain ripe age of a woman, they expect you to have a family and get pregnant, but they never tell you how to do it. I'm just like,

Angie & Kristy: 8:47

how, what, why? Yeah. A hundred percent. And then also, like you're not allowed to date. Yeah, exactly. And then all of a sudden they expect you to be married.

Karen Zheng: 8:57

Like what's up with

Angie & Kristy: 8:57

that. It's like, it's like a thing where they're like, don't date during school. and then when you graduate, they're like, where's my grandchild. You're like, you're like mom, like you're skipping many, many steps. They're going from a studious Virgin to a childbearing mother. Like it's skipping a few steps. But I also think like, I don't know. Like, I feel like, like, yes, Chinese parents are very, what is that word? Very like, Avoidant of this topic. Hmm. But I feel like it's not just Chinese parents, like Chinese parents, especially, but I feel like just like the society we grew up in like Christie it's like how horrible that sounds until you pointed out now. Like how, when we were younger, I don't know how old you are, Karen, but when we were teenagers, the adult magazines that women would write reading, like, Oh, like, this is the stuff that we're going to be doing one day. Like, this is what. These are the women that we look up to, this is what they're doing. How would you please the man and 16 steps or whatever, like how to, how to, I don't know, make how to look good naked, like stuff like that. Right? Like, and as a teenager, like growing up, you just think, okay, well, like what you said about like female pleasure or female masturbate, we were consuming all this media where it's telling us like, Hey, sexist for the man. And it's only exploring the one side of it too. Like it's only targeting, you know, or putting out the message that women or young girls, young girls that sounds really pedophilic

Karen Zheng: 10:32

young women, young

Angie & Kristy: 10:33

women, young women, it's like putting out the message that, you know, our sole purpose.

Karen Zheng: 10:44

Is to

Angie & Kristy: 10:45

pleasure the man. And it's just about men. It's not about ourselves and it's not about other women. It's not about anybody else on, you know, whenever identity that you identify with. It's just a heterosexual woman needs to pleasure a heterosexual man and the entire magazine every single month. That is the goal. That is what you need to do. And that's the norm. Yeah. And like, I'm curious, what was it like for you to see this stuff? Or like, what does it even like for you now?

Karen Zheng: 11:16

So I think we grew up in kind of different generations. I'm Tony.

Angie & Kristy: 11:21

Oh my goodness. So young, we need to learn because gen Z is, are like so smart.

Karen Zheng: 11:28

Wait. No, I do not consider myself gen Z. Ooh. I'm

Angie & Kristy: 11:35

so sorry. I just totally threw a label at you. And now

Karen Zheng: 11:40

you're fine. because I like to say that I'm an old person in a young person's body, but so I grew up consuming. We didn't have, well, I mean, we had magazines, but we didn't buy magazines or stuff like that. but my first, like, encounter with anything sexual, I think is, Jaqui Monga, which is like, That was when I had my first sexual awakening and it was great. and then after that I started watching porn, but of course all the porn is like similar to what you said and like what was in the magazines. It was all. Much more like, male dominated and male oriented. so I watched straight porn too, but I don't watch the guy. Of course. but now today's, I don't know why I still feel like. Not comfortable watching a lesbian porn for some reason. And I don't know if that's like from childhood trauma or, being closeted or anything like that.

Angie & Kristy: 12:42

What do you mean by childhood trauma?

Karen Zheng: 12:45

I am still closeted from my family and, my mom, my mom has like. I think she has suspicions of, me not being straight. cause I'm very, like,

Angie & Kristy: 12:59

I

Karen Zheng: 12:59

don't know how to say my appearance is very male. and she has told me on like multiple occasions. Let me think. I think she said before, like as long as you don't like girls it's OK. And then, another time she said, As long as you know, you're a girl. Cause I, I think we were arguing about like wearing men's clothes. it's fine. yeah, stuff like that.

Angie & Kristy: 13:21

She's like

Karen Zheng: 13:21

subtle, subtle stuff that she says to me, that I still remember. it

Angie & Kristy: 13:26

sounds like it's like, she's trying

Karen Zheng: 13:29

to accept

Angie & Kristy: 13:30

you from your exterior, like through your appearance, but then she's also trying to be like, I don't know, planting seeds or like sowing seeds into you that like, you know, as long as you're using. Still know your place in society

Karen Zheng: 13:50

should be doing and what

Angie & Kristy: 13:52

people you should date. She's like trying to be progressive. Like it's okay if you're

Karen Zheng: 13:57

not wearing dresses,

Angie & Kristy: 13:58

but no. Yeah, that sounds, yeah, that sounds really tough. Like, what was it like for you just hearing that from your mom?

Karen Zheng: 14:09

Well, like. at the moment, of course, I was just like, fuck

Angie & Kristy: 14:15

on inside. Of course.

Karen Zheng: 14:16

and then usually I don't reply, because like one, I don't want to lie to, like, it's kind of like lying by omission, but I just like don't reply. and then I remember this one other time. I think we were at this dim sum place and enjoying dim sum. And it was like, Recently after the Supreme court decision to legalize, same sex marriage. And then I was talking to her about it and then she was just like, that's so disgusting. What the heck? And then I was just like, okay, just going to eat my egg tart and

Angie & Kristy: 14:54

yeah. I'm sorry. I cannot imagine what that's like to hear that from your mom.

Karen Zheng: 15:01

Yeah. But, I don't really talk that much to my dad. We're not emotionally close at all. so like the only kind of, I don't know how to call this, but like subtle, aggressive, passive aggressive kind of things are come from my mom, but I love my mom a lot. So it's kind of like a balancing act between those two.

Angie & Kristy: 15:24

Yeah. And this is something that like, I don't think NG and I could even come remotely close to trying to understand

Karen Zheng: 15:31

what it could be like, especially cause

Angie & Kristy: 15:33

from what it sounds like, you know, you, you and mom have, have a decent relationship, like you're close and you love her very much. But then she's saying a lot of these hurtful things that is directly. Like attacking you and your identity and who you are as a person. And that's, you know, you, you,

Karen Zheng: 15:52

I would assume that

Angie & Kristy: 15:53

we would always want to have our friends and family and people that we love to accept us for who we are. Cause that's just, that's who we are. Right. But so much of that is like how, how, how I know. Right. I just want to say, like, I think. Even the way that you're talking about this now, like to us, I'm like, I think I do see what you mean by like, you're an old person, young person's thought, but I think you are very mature in handling that. Like, you still love your mom very much, even though she said these hurtful things and you don't take it personally. because that's her, that's like her. Her prejudice and her,

Karen Zheng: 16:38

her

Angie & Kristy: 16:38

outdated thoughts. Yeah.

Karen Zheng: 16:40

But of course I went through like a long period heard of reckoning before I got to this place. I think also a part of the trauma I had was like, I had some like internal homophobia. Yeah. of course growing up in, in a family that was like just a family, but like a society that was like very, very hetero dominated. It's like, I knew I was gay. I say gay as in lesbian, but I use that term just by the way. when I was like five in kindergarten, I knew I was gay. Cause I was like, Oh my God, I like this classmate, but she's a girl. and up until my. My middle school years, I was actually in denial of that still. And was like, I told my friends that I had a crush because I had concocted a crush, out of like this, this, like I made up this crush that I had on this guy friend, Cause I wanted to make myself like.

Angie & Kristy: 17:42

Like this boy.

Karen Zheng: 17:43

And so I told all my friends, you know, cause accountability, right? Yeah. I told all my friends and I was like, okay. And then, try to make myself, you don't like this boy and

Angie & Kristy: 17:55

it didn't work. It was so bad.

Karen Zheng: 18:00

I don't know. I'm like nothing came of it. Cause I didn't like tell him that I like him or anything like that. I just like told my friends. I liked this boy. And then whenever, like we talked to this boy or something like that, I would like try to act like, you know, I was into it. Okay. I would be like, Oh my God, our hands touched, blah, blah, blah. But I was just like, Oh my God, So, that was an experience, And then until like my freshman year of high school, I officially came out to like all my friends and it was like via Facebook. And everyone, all my friends are really supportive and stuff like that. Oh, I also, okay. I was actually a devout Christian for a while. It was like 10 ish, maybe around 10 ish, but. It

Angie & Kristy: 18:42

was a few years that

Karen Zheng: 18:43

was really devoutly Christian because, I had to go to Chinese school It was like a church held Chinese school. So I had to like attend and all the church services as well. In the beginning, I was like, really skeptical of like this God or whatever, no offense to anyone who is religious. and then over time I got really into it. And then. Like I prayed every day. I read the Bible every day. I didn't curse, et cetera, et cetera. But then I think after a while I started rereading the Bible that I was like, am I going to hell? And then realize that the Bible was kind of like, Very shitty and then turned agnostic.

Angie & Kristy: 19:27

When did you realize that? Like how, how long did you get into before you realized you're like this isn't. For me anymore.

Karen Zheng: 19:36

I actually started charting school when I was like six, maybe. and then it was like the beginning of middle school, middle school was a bad thing. Like fifth, sixth grade ish that I was like very devoutly Christian. and I like, I think seventh grade to like eighth grade, I started like realizing. Maybe things aren't what the Bible says or what the Bible says. Isn't like true everywhere.

Angie & Kristy: 20:03

Yeah. actually, you know what? I used to be Christian too, cause he doesn't even know that even though we're called together, I was baptized when I was 12.

Karen Zheng: 20:14

Oh.

Angie & Kristy: 20:16

And, and you know what? It was probably, I was probably a sign, but when I was being baptized, I slipped and fell. Oh The pastor was so like, I'm like standing and then he lowers like the top half, but then I think one of my foot slipped so that my entire body just like what into the water. And then she had to help me get up because. Yeah, it was, it was not even that deep, but he had to redo it. And you know what, it's probably a sign that like this girl, nah, this girl baptized, you cannot be baptized. And you know what the same thing, like I used to go to church every Sunday. Just me too. Like not my parents didn't go, my parents are agnostic. my mom was like, okay, you can go to church. Just don't tell your grandma. Cause my grandma's a Buddhist and my grandma's dad was a tower priest. Like my family is like all over the place religiously. So I chose to go to church on my own because my. Best friend at the time went to church and my best friend was being baptized. And I'm like, I don't know.

Karen Zheng: 21:19

Oh my goodness.

Angie & Kristy: 21:20

I know, I know. I know it's so disrespectful of me, but, I still remember the pastor was like, do you accept Jesus as your savior or something like that? And I'm like, huh. Okay for a good year or so, I really did buy into it because my pastor and his family, they are lovely, lovely people. Like they're the nicest people I've ever met. They really cared about me. Like they truly cared about me so my church like helped me a lot in a lot of different areas, but, there were definitely some things that I didn't agree with. Like it's very, very like judgemental. They always try to make me like, kind of tone down my personality. so I started to be like, Oh, it can't really be myself at church. it was like nothing compared to being queer and being religious because there's so much, No negative, negativity from some, some religious groups. but, but I remember I saw going to church because I got a boyfriend and I was like, Oh my God, what am I just burst into flames? When I walk into church for having premarital sex, like,

Karen Zheng: 22:29

Oh my

Angie & Kristy: 22:29

God, Karen. As a person who, who is queer and someone you mentioned like the first time. You realized that you liked girls was when you were five years old, but then you were going to church when you were six and like, you know, and, and you got really into it. So I could only imagine that there's a lot of friction between that. Like, can you walk us through the journey of what that was like for you and your childhood?

Karen Zheng: 22:55

Yeah. definitely a lot of friction, but honestly I think at such a young age, I honestly don't know what the Bible is talking about at all. I just kinda went through the motions of like a Sunday school sermons and

Angie & Kristy: 23:09

stuff like that.

Karen Zheng: 23:11

but I was always in denial. I think of my sexuality. and like feeling like. I also had like a period of time where, in the very beginning I was in denial, like. I'm definitely not homo. I am definitely hetero. And then over time it became like, okay, I accept that I'm homo, but why is this thing that I can't change? why can't I just make myself hetero was like another phase that I had. And, and now I'm just like, whatever. but yeah, their church, I think, Honestly, the things that they taught during Sunday school, maybe I wasn't just, I wasn't paying attention. It was just me, but I feel like the things they taught weren't, that against my identity, it was more when I like personally read through like every word of the Bible, and realized that I, yeah, I did not belong.

Angie & Kristy: 24:07

Well, you read the entire Bible. I

Karen Zheng: 24:10

mean, I read it, but. I don't remember any of it.

Angie & Kristy: 24:14

Yeah. I remember like having to like Sunday school, we had to like memorize excerpts. And my, my pastor's wife gave me a Bible. Never touched it. I don't even know where it is anymore. I

Karen Zheng: 24:26

know exactly where my Bible,

Angie & Kristy: 24:28

where is it? It's actually in my

Karen Zheng: 24:32

bedside drawer.

Angie & Kristy: 24:36

take it out and like, no, I don't know.

Karen Zheng: 24:41

I, I don't, I don't know.

Angie & Kristy: 24:42

I don't know why it's been there and this was always weird. Like that Christianity like is so. Prevalent to our, to us, like first gen Canadian and Americans. I

Karen Zheng: 24:57

don't

Angie & Kristy: 24:57

know if maybe this is like part of a simulation into Western culture, maybe. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's almost like a, a simulation mean like a simulation

Karen Zheng: 25:08

simulation, I think to be in a video game.

Angie & Kristy: 25:14

Yes. Like assimilation,

Karen Zheng: 25:16

assimilation, like, like, like

Angie & Kristy: 25:18

dig into the society. Yeah. Okay. So we had no idea. We're going to talk about religion. Sorry. No, please. Don't apologize. I love it. You remember where this came from now? I'm like trying to trail all the way back. Cause we were talking about porn.

Karen Zheng: 26:11

Oh yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 26:14

Hey, I still can't really get into lesbian porn lesbian. Porn is because like a lot of it is catered towards heterosexual men. Yes.

Karen Zheng: 26:24

Right?

Angie & Kristy: 26:25

Again, like if the lesbian porn is not for lesbians it's for men. Yeah.

Karen Zheng: 26:31

I literally, okay. I only watch lesbian porn literally to learn stuff and not to masturbate. part of it is also because I feel more comfortable watching Asian sex, Asian porn, but it's not available in America. It was not like widely available in America. It's mostly just like white people, black people, et cetera. Or if it does exist,

Angie & Kristy: 26:54

it's very fetishize. Oh my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Karen Zheng: 26:59

and I'm just like, let's see anyone like this at all

Angie & Kristy: 27:02

in my lab. it's, it's very fetishized and there's no. I mean that's porn in general. I like it's all fetishize. And you said that you watch lesbian porn to learn. Do you find that it's helpful?

Karen Zheng: 27:13

Who did

Angie & Kristy: 27:13

they, Oh, I asked this. The reason why I asked this is because like a lot of hetero porn is very unrealistic and. like stop using porn as a benchmark.

Karen Zheng: 27:25

Yeah. I, I actually started learning really from pouring when I, after like, Post sex. I was like, this is not like what I saw on TV. You know what I mean?

Angie & Kristy: 27:36

It was like

Karen Zheng: 27:37

when I was in the moment. so that went back to like look at it. and it was mostly for like different ways to do things rather than like, I don't know. I don't know how to explain, but. I think it was like in a, in a sense helpful, but like I knew it wasn't like what they showed on the video in real life. Cause like I had already done it. So I knew that it wasn't

Angie & Kristy: 28:02

like that. I remember when I was living in China. And porn is banned in China. I had like, was really paranoid and I didn't want to watch porn and get worded. Like how would that be? I went to China to do an internship for school, and then I get deported for watching porn. Like. That would be really bad.

Karen Zheng: 28:24

She has dope stories,

Angie & Kristy: 28:27

really bad. I mean, I had a VPN and everything. I had to have a VPN, right. Like climb any kind of wall. So I was like, what's an alternative to porn. So I started like reading, like adult comics, it's like drawings and these are like, Artistic. A lot of these artists are women. And I remember like coming across a lot of, a lot of contacts, 10 for the queer community, because it's actually written and, and created by queer people for queer people. And I thought that was really beautiful. a lot of, a lot of them, like they, they draw realistic body images and they there's, there's dialogue, there's storylines. this is a lot of stuff that you cannot find in, in. Porn at all? Like, is this something we can link in the

Karen Zheng: 29:13

show? Yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 29:14

I want to see it. I highly recommend it. I think, one of them is called curvy and it's and it's about this woman who falls into another dimension and like she has a sexual awakening in another dimension. Yo, yo, karen, are you finding that, you know, in, in porn or in like, I don't know, media stuff that there's more representation from the queer community, like now today in 2020, or

Karen Zheng: 29:47

compared

Angie & Kristy: 29:48

to when you first discovered porn or first started watching porn. I

Karen Zheng: 29:52

think definitely. Yeah. There's, an increase in representation and I think it's true for like a lot of different communities, like the Asian American community a lot next, et cetera.

Angie & Kristy: 30:04

Yeah,

Karen Zheng: 30:05

that reminds me actually, the is related to Christie's question. I. Like now I find Chinese porn in Asian porn on PornHub, and that's like a totally different change for me. It's like, if you type in Chinese, it actually comes out with like a Chinese video. and I've done that for

Angie & Kristy: 30:24

Chinese, like in the Chinese characters

Karen Zheng: 30:27

and Chinese characters. And like, it's like mainly on produced porn videos. I was like, Oh my God. That's so cool.

Angie & Kristy: 30:34

But yeah, that's. Remember that. And what are your thoughts? What are your reviews? Is it a rave or is it a not so great?

Karen Zheng: 30:43

I mean, it's pretty great for people who want to see that, which is like me, cause like I'm not into Western porn

Angie & Kristy: 30:50

we need, we need all of our listeners to go search for Chinese porn on PornHub because demand will drive up supply. Let's let, what is it called? Like

Karen Zheng: 31:00

creative movement

Angie & Kristy: 31:01

of Chinese based sport. Yeah. let's mobilize our listeners. So should listeners, if you're listening to this and you're like, this is not the kind of episode I signed up for. Is that how I'm not going to lie. Like my understanding about what. The sexual culture in China is, is, is very, very weak. Like, I don't know anything about it. And when I was in China, I hooked up with two locals, two very, very different experiences. And I'm still confused. Like, I don't think I, it helped, like I was doing it for a research, but like come to any sort of conclusion.

Karen Zheng: 31:43

Okay, wait, now we want to know give us a trailer. And then like

Angie & Kristy: 31:53

the first guy I hooked up with was a guy who happened to have a, like a, like a rental property in my building.

Karen Zheng: 32:01

So

Angie & Kristy: 32:01

he was very like, you know, RA, he had. Okay. Few properties. He drove two different cars and they were both nice cars. And he was very much like looking for like a trophy wife kind of type. And he said he was intrigued by me because I had an aura. Aura is just like being different because I'm Western. Nice.

Karen Zheng: 32:23

You speak in Chinese.

Angie & Kristy: 32:25

Yeah. I did speak in Chinese. He said that in Chinese, he's like, how you cheat? Hmm. And I was like in the middle of carrying my like 34th box from Taobao upstairs. So I don't know what he meant by that, but I think I was just doing my own thing. And then, yeah, so we went on a. Few dates. And he became really clingy and really needy. And he said he wanted to marry me. And then he said that he was going to immigrate to Canada to marry me. And I was like, He once was like called me up, I was like, let's go watch a movie. I'm like, no, I'm with my friends. I'm busy. And he got really angry. That I wouldn't put him before my friends. And that's when I started tried to end things that he just, he was really confused. He was like, I've never met anyone like you like you're. So I'm like, what is going on? So that was my first experience. The second experience I was walking through. the city I was walking with some groceries and some, like some dude came up to me, asked me for money and that never happens in Canada or anywhere else I've been to. and I was like, Oh, this is interesting. Like, so he asked me for my number. I gave him my, we chat. And then he was in town for like a couple of weeks. and then he was actually, I guess, maybe because he's from like a bigger city from a coastal city that happens to be a bit more international. and he was a bit closer to my age on like the other guy who was. So he was very like nonchalant. And he was like, I heard American women are very loose and I was like, Whoa, like, like these are two completely different. This does not help me identify what dating or sexual culture is like at all. But I mean, that's the thing though, right? Like I don't think we can. Again, take the same brush and paint a whole community, a whole society of what they're like, just, just based off of that,

Karen Zheng: 34:21

those two stories, you can

Angie & Kristy: 34:23

tell that there's completely different experiences and what people want. And so it's just, it's the same across the board.

Karen Zheng: 34:29

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, it's like kind of the same in America too. There's like totally different experiences that you can have too, but that just means you need to increase your sample size. So. No, yeah. But like the stereotype is that like Westerners are more, I don't know, out there. And like, I dunno more rowdy, like with like snacks and stuff. And like Eastern nerves are like

Angie & Kristy: 34:57

more subtle

Karen Zheng: 34:59

and like take things slower. I don't know. But

Angie & Kristy: 35:03

yeah, maybe, but also like biggest population, so, Oh no. English and also means biggest variety, right? I know you mentioned in your podcasts, like you, you love to talk about mental health and things like that. Right. So I wanted to pivot and just ask

Karen Zheng: 35:26

you from

Angie & Kristy: 35:27

your experience, what was, you know, like what's your experience with mental health?

Karen Zheng: 35:32

Oh, my God. I think we need another hour. My parents and I never talked about mental health at all. as I think is true of a lot of Asian families, but I had. I had depression and anxiety. I mean, I still have anxiety, but, and like a phase of workaholism, I still kind of have workaholism and the,

Angie & Kristy: 35:59

what else?

Karen Zheng: 35:59

I had Andrew SEO for awhile. And when I had anorexia, it was actually the first time that I sat my mom down to talk about stuff. and it was also during like a self harm phase two that I heard, And I told her that I have this thing called anorexia and it makes me not want to eat anything. And then I had been like skipping a lot of meals already for like a month or so. And she's just like, whatever this is teenager phase or whatever. Like she didn't really ask,

Angie & Kristy: 36:31

but,

Karen Zheng: 36:31

I sat her down. It was kind of like my breaking point, I think. And then I told her about it and then Jeff had took it very well. She was like, we were all, we were both crying and everything. She was like, if you need to go to a doctor, we can go to a doctor. And I was like, Oh my God. Because I knew like at that time we didn't even have health insurance. so it would be a lot of money, but yeah, that was like the first time we kind of talked about it. and yeah, I think that's about it. I don't think we talked about it ever again. I had interacts SIA, my junior, my like junior to senior year, like summer transition period in high school. And honestly looking back, I think part of it was because I was, you know, like low key, toxic relationship, because like my partner at the time was also kind of low key, had an eating disorder. but yeah, I was like for three, four months, I think. And then, I'm still recovering, I would say from it, but it's like almost fully recovered, but there's like a lot of side effects that come with that, like, period of like intense hunger. Cause like I had to rebuild my metabolism back and like learn how to eat at normal times and like learn to like let go of obsessive behaviors. but yeah, I, that time was. Was very hard. I still have some like self destructive tendencies that I need to work on, but I think the breaking point also for that time, when I finally realized I really need to change or like find some help was, I had. I also like was like intensely exercising. What I was like, not eating anything at all. but every morning I would go on runs, to, to park that was near our house.

Angie & Kristy: 38:28

And

Karen Zheng: 38:28

then I would just lay on the bench and like,

Angie & Kristy: 38:32

Fall asleep, which is kind of

Karen Zheng: 38:33

dangerous now thinking back on

Angie & Kristy: 38:35

it,

Karen Zheng: 38:39

but good thing, nothing happened, but there's one time I was laying down on the bench and everything like, like my butt hurt when I sat down. Cause there was like, no, like fat on my butt. So it was just like my bones. And then like my back hurt, everything hurt even when I was like laying on my bed,

Angie & Kristy: 38:59

which is like cushioned, it still hurt.

Karen Zheng: 39:02

and then like, my ribs were protruding. My knees were protruding. It was like, like everything hurts. So I got to point that was like, okay. I decided my goal is to like combat this thing. So I went on that journey. I didn't actually go see a doctor, so I just like did it by myself. I also was not diagnosed of like any of the mental illnesses. but like, I mean, when you're experiencing it, you kind of know yourself. and I didn't want to like burden my parents with the monetary things. and I still to this day do not have a therapist and I think I'd really need to find a therapist. but yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 39:44

A good therapist is hard to find because like one there's a short supply, I mean, and also they're super expensive. Yeah.

Karen Zheng: 39:55

But right now I have the school's health insurance. So I need to go see a counselor at my school or something like,

Angie & Kristy: 40:01

Oh, thank God for your school.

Karen Zheng: 40:02

Yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 40:04

Yeah. Take advantage of that when

Karen Zheng: 40:06

you have it, right?

Angie & Kristy: 40:07

Yeah. Super important.

Karen Zheng: 40:09

Like I'm. So in

Angie & Kristy: 40:11

awe that

Karen Zheng: 40:12

you were able to go through all the motions of

Angie & Kristy: 40:15

recovery on your own, because that's. It's

Karen Zheng: 40:20

in my mind. I'm like, I can't

Angie & Kristy: 40:21

even fathom

Karen Zheng: 40:22

because there's so much

Angie & Kristy: 40:25

around NRX there because so much of it is it's a mental health disorder, right? Yeah. And to learn how to, as you mentioned, the timing of the food, recognize your hunger sensations again, right. Getting your body back to that physiological state. Without the support of a healthcare professional, it's like, Holy fuck. Scary and amazing

Karen Zheng: 40:49

that you were able to do that. Thank you. There's like a lot of like other mental illness, like mental health stuff that come up during recovery, like a lot of self hate because the initial process it's like, you gain a lot of weight, right. Because you're finally start eating again, but your metabolism has like, Gone so slow. You can't actually digest all the food that you eat. So you become really fat, which is like not a derogatory term, but to like a person who's recovering, like when you see in the mirror is like not what you want to see. And I'm still like grappling with like self hate and like body image issues right now. Well, yeah, I think a lot of people who like don't have a mental illness or eating disorders still like have a lot of body image issues, body dysmorphia.

Angie & Kristy: 41:33

totally. And I think like negative self talk and self hate. I feel like so much of it. We experience

Karen Zheng: 41:44

for folks who.

Angie & Kristy: 41:46

Either diagnosed or not, but go through symptoms of depression or anxiety or an eating disorder or disordered eating, all of that becomes way more amplified. And then the shame and embarrassment and the need for control is so much stronger too. So it's just,

Karen Zheng: 42:06

Oh, I love that.

Angie & Kristy: 42:09

Like it's yeah. The whole eating thing.

Karen Zheng: 42:14

Yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 42:16

It's not easy, especially from, you know, for, for someone who had anorexia it's yeah. I'm just so in awe Christina dietician.

Karen Zheng: 42:26

Oh really? Yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 42:28

I mean, I can go more

Karen Zheng: 42:29

into, if you will. Like, in the very beginning, I could only eat foods that were like, quote, unquote safe for me, which was like border lining, orthorexia. Which is like you had to eat like really healthy foods,

Angie & Kristy: 42:43

like clean eating quote unquote.

Karen Zheng: 42:45

And I was like, during that time, I was also like extremely obsessed with like all magazines and websites that was like clean eating,

Angie & Kristy: 42:54

while I wasn't eating anything.

Karen Zheng: 42:57

And then when, during the time I was also consuming a lot of content that was like, Travel slash eating blogs. Like I love Mike Chen. I still watch, Oh my God. Like, he's great.

Angie & Kristy: 43:11

He, yeah, he eats like five bowls of noodle and yeah.

Karen Zheng: 43:14

And that would be like, okay, as long as I'm watching this, I can get full. That was like my mentality. So I just like watch the, but I didn't eat anything. but during like recovery, I would only eat like safe foods that were healthy. And then. It was like, how long has it been? I'm so old. Oh three.

Angie & Kristy: 43:37

No, it seems like a long time ago.

Karen Zheng: 43:38

I think it was like three years, like only recently. And it's also with like the help of my current partner. She helped me like, Get into foods. I usually eat like foods from outside restaurants, like sushi burgers, et cetera. So I can eat like almost any food now. which is really good. yeah, but I still have a couple of problems that I need to work through, like food timing. And, I can't really eat like greasy foods in the morning or else, like, I feel very uncomfortable, but yeah.

Angie & Kristy: 44:10

And that all, that's all part of the recovery process, right? Like it doesn't just happen overnight. It can take people like 10 to 20 years really to

Karen Zheng: 44:19

go through recovery and

Angie & Kristy: 44:20

depending on how deeply ingrained it is, and this is something, what I'm about to say next is not something that I've talked about on the podcast before, but. During high school, I went through also phase of disordered eating as well. So some of the stories that you had mentioned, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I totally relate like nonstop exercising all the time, morning and the afterschool. And then at night time consistently for many hours, this is also very triggering for people. So it's definitely

Karen Zheng: 44:44

triggered, very triggered

Angie & Kristy: 44:47

and, and yeah, like I would eat an Apple, you know, for a whole day. Cool. and, and then yeah, being so obsessive about magazine

Karen Zheng: 44:56

at the time we had physical magazines. So obsessive about that, like I remember it was like,

Angie & Kristy: 45:02

certain celebrities and they, they lost a bunch of weight and I'm like, Oh my gosh. And they weren't, they were actually shaming that celebrity saying like they lost too much weight. And in my mind, I'm like, no, they're perfect because they were so skeletal. I'm like, that's the way to go.

Karen Zheng: 45:16

Well, that reminds me of something. so, so it's kind of, it's not funny, but it's like this phrase it's funny. But, so it was like during, when I heard it. Like the beginnings of anorexia and I started losing weight a lot. And then when I got to a certain weight, my parents and my family were telling me, Oh, you look great. Right. They would tell you that when you lose the weight, you look great. And then it's funny because once I like started losing even more weight, they're like, you've lost too much weight. Why are you so scared? I'm just like, what do you want me to do?

Angie & Kristy: 45:54

Yeah. But, and then so much of it is also like you're getting that affirmation. That weight is a good thing. Right. And,

Karen Zheng: 46:00

and for folks who, you know,

Angie & Kristy: 46:03

Maybe suffering from anxiety or, you know, or even, especially social anxiety, having that validation and hearing that from your friends and family, like, Hey, you look so good. Like you you've lost some weight that can actually be super damaging because in one hand,

Karen Zheng: 46:17

you're you're

Angie & Kristy: 46:18

perpetuating like, or supporting this idea that by losing weight, then you are now worthy and that you are quote unquote healthier. Right? And then you become obsessed with wanting to lose weight. Even like dangerous. Yup.

Karen Zheng: 46:32

Yeah. Even like my mom's, my mom's rhetoric is always like, she doesn't, well, I mean, she does, but like, you know how, when you like, come back to your parents after a while, they're like, Oh, did you lose weight? Or like, Oh, did you gain weight? She like does that too to me, but mostly she talks about herself in her own weight. Like she's I locate things she's like slightly. Body dysmorphia, but even then, yeah, she's like in her forties and she's like so obsessed with her weight and like what she eats or how much she eats. And she's like, Oh, I can't eat this right now. I can't eat anymore. I need to lose weight. And like, she's. The same weight as me. And she's like, I need to lose five more pounds. I'm just like

Angie & Kristy: 47:19

lady.

Karen Zheng: 47:22

Well, yeah,

Angie & Kristy: 47:23

sort of thought that's the self hate, the distorted thought and then the obsession. Right? Cause then it's, it's so much of it is ha needing to have that control and wanting that validation, just basking in that validation.

Karen Zheng: 47:36

I think part of it, part of my interests, he was also like influenced by my mom's rhetoric. Cause like growing up, I was, I would always be like bombarded with stuff that was like skinny equals beautiful, healthy, et cetera, et cetera, like skinny was positive. so it made me kind of like want to reach for that.

Angie & Kristy: 47:58

Yeah. Yeah. Cause like on the surface who doesn't want to be healthy and look good and be accepted by

Karen Zheng: 48:04

society. Right.

Angie & Kristy: 48:04

But underneath it's actually causing way more harm than good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for myself, I I've definitely, always, struggled with body image issues too. I got my boobs really. Right. Oops. Very early. Yeah. And, it made me hypersensitive to the way that other people would look at me. cause it would be girls and guys just making comments about my body as if they had a say over what I should look like. And, so I've always been really uncomfortable with my sexuality growing up because of how. Big, my boobs were at a young age. One thing I will always remember is like, I always thought I was fat, but like looking back at photos of myself when I was in high school, I'm like, I wasn't even fat. I was just curvier than, than the typical, you know, Chinese girl. Like we're a product of our environment. And a lot of our attraction is we're attracted to the type of people we think we should be attracted to. And a lot of that is societal factors. And growing up with all these things of telling us were too fat or too skinny, where. Not skinny enough. We're not that enough. Like, you know, like the trends always changing and you can never one moment, like it's going to be big butts. And then the next day is going to be like tight abs. Like you're never going to be able to keep up. To keep up. So we have to be happy with our, the thing is it's like, it's like a game of Thrones moment. We need to just break the wheel. Who cares if you're fat, that's not the point, right? Like who cares? If you're skinny, that's not the point it's been so fucking ingrained into our society and into our minds with our families or their parents, with our friends, right. With healthcare professionals to even. But like that's now we need to start changing that narrative, but we are accepting diversity in terms of skin color, in terms of, you know, religion, race, ethnicity. We now also need to start looking at diversity within bodies as well because health. Oh, it is not about what the number on the scale is. Health is about all the other factors that you do, you know, including sleep, including how you're managing stress. Yes. Eating for sure. Right. Moving your body for sure. But also all these other factors that really that scale, doesn't tell you the story about any of that shit.

Karen Zheng: 50:36

Health is like health can be. Totally different appearances. Like, how do you, how can you tell from like someone just looking at some of their healthy or not? It's like,

Angie & Kristy: 50:48

exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's right. So we need to stop judging people by the way they look.

Angie Yu: 50:58

Episode. I am reading Allie comment from Lisa Townsend, who is a guest on one of our upcoming episodes. This is a comment that this is a comment that Lisa wrote to us and it made us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. And Lisa said, I just wanted you to know that I have been on a good emotional roller coaster since you guys invited me to be on your show. And it's forcing me to reflect on my life as I dig through all the stories that my life holds crying right now, LOL, listening to. Give Christie, the D right now is speaks to me on so many levels. Thank you for being so vulnerable and brave. Thank you, Lisa, for the kind comments and we can't wait to share your episode and your story with our listeners.

Angie & Kristy: 51:52

We talked about, we talked about. Religion. We talked about sex. We talked about porn. We talked about, how you're closeted from your family right now. Our show is called shit. We don't tell mom. And I'm curious to know from you, what is a piece of shit that you would really like to tell your mom

Karen Zheng: 52:12

Oh, I think I would really like her to come to my wedding, but I do not know if that can happen, like at this moment. and then I think another thing is I really want to, tell her about her. Very distorted body image issues. Cause like, I feel like she, she lives so tiring only when, whenever I see her like fuss over like food and like, the weight on the scale. Oh, I think I probably would tell her that we all probably need therapy in the family.

Angie & Kristy: 52:49

Those three are. I mean, those are huge things to want to talk to mom and. I mean you're 20, so

Karen Zheng: 53:01

I'm so young.

Angie & Kristy: 53:03

You're so young. I'm so old.

Karen Zheng: 53:06

I don't think I've

Angie & Kristy: 53:07

ever heard anyone be like, Oh, I'm so young.

Karen Zheng: 53:11

Okay. I'm turning 21 very soon. And it's very scary.

Angie & Kristy: 53:16

You'll be fine. I think they'll do great. You've already come a really long way from just an hour and a half of talking to you. I can tell that you're an incredibly strong person and you are very strong-willed, to have gotten yourself, you know, like looking at your own problems and trying to fix that, like for someone, your age to take responsibility for such. Large challenging problems. Like you've come a long way and I'm, I'm, I'm sure you have lots and lots of great things in the future for you. Oh,

Karen Zheng: 53:50

you're so sweet.

Angie & Kristy: 53:54

That's true. And so, you know, thank you so much for opening up, sharing your stories and telling us about all the shit that you want to tell mom. Yeah, I think I learned a lot today.

Karen Zheng: 54:06

No, thank you for having me. It's very fun. This is actually my first podcast on someone else's show.

Angie & Kristy: 54:13

Hey, how did it feel?

Karen Zheng: 54:15

It was great. It's actually, yeah, it felt like kind of nice not being the

Angie & Kristy: 54:21

host.

Karen Zheng: 54:24

Oh, state responsibility. Yeah. yeah, I definitely want to invite you guys on my podcast too. Yeah, we're down.

Angie & Kristy: 54:33

We're just going to straight up except where can our listeners find you?

Karen Zheng: 54:40

let's see, you can find MX Asian-American on Facebook and Instagram or email a mixed Asian american@gmo.com. Or if you want, like my quote unquote private handle, is underscore underscore K dot Z, for Instagram.

Angie & Kristy: 54:59

Yeah. Awesome. Sounds good. We'll link them in the show notes as well as link to your podcast.

Karen Zheng: 55:04

Yeah. Thank you.

Angie & Kristy: 55:06

Thank you. We'll talk soon. Bye. Bye.