21. Managing Expectations as an Asian Millennial ft. Natalie Cheung (Yellow Bee Pod)

Natalie from Yellow Bee Pod joins us to share her experience transitioning out of her civil engineering job to an outspoken supporter of Asian identity and women in STEM. We talk about what our parents’ expectations of us are growing up, our own expectations of what our life will look like, and how those expectations have changed as we approach milestones in our adulthood.

Highlights:

• Natalie kept her new job secret for six months before telling her mom
• Keeping your career plans to yourselves because it's easier than explaining it to your immigrant parents
• What we thought being an adult would be like versus what it’s actually like
• What emigrating was like for our moms when they were young
• We open up a safe space to discuss what we know and what we should know about Asian incels

Takeaways:

• Turning away from the expectations of your parents can happen at any time in your life
• Our parents never had a open-communication relationship with their parents, so it’s up to us to initiate that as our generation’s contribution
• Good grades, good university, and good job does not always equal happily ever after
• Our immigrant parents craved stability but did not have it and now they want that stability for us
• Median warps representation of all groups, whether it’s religion, incels, or our own communities

Resources:

• Natalie's Yellow Bee Pod
• Yellow Bee Pod (Instagram)
• Rice to Meet You Pod with Evelyn Mok and Nigel Ng (Instagram)
• Never Have I Ever (Netflix)
• To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before
• Asian America: The Ken Fong Podcast

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Transcript

Kristy Yee: 0:00

Oh God. Okay. Three, two, one record. Okay. We are live

Angie Yu: 0:05

we are

Kristy Yee: 0:33

okay. Welcome back to another episode of shit. We don't tell mom today. We have a super exciting guest. I'm so thrilled to have, you know what, I'm not even going to reveal. I'm so thrilled to have this person. She is a major voice for the Eastern Southeast Asian stories in the UK. She's a podcaster hosting yellow B pod. She's also a huge advocate for young women in STEM careers. And she's also been awarded the YMC, England and Wales young leader of the year in 2018 and the university of Manchester for media of social responsibility in 2019. So, you know, no big

Angie Yu: 1:14

Damn.

Kristy Yee: 1:15

welcome, Natalie,

Nathalie Cheung: 1:18

Kind intern on Joe to be here. I love your podcast. I'm really excited to connect to the Instagram and that you've asked me to get, so this episode

Kristy Yee: 1:25

for sure. You were like, I remember when I first discovered your podcast. It was during risk quote, air quotes,

Angie Yu: 1:32

Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 1:33

time before we started our podcast. And I was like, Oh, damn, yes. She speaks about all these things that I think about. And all the guests that you bring on are super amazing. Like you've had Evelyn mock on your show. And I think at the time I don't, it hasn't exploded as big as he did. Was that correct? Yeah. Yeah. So the fried rice thing hasn't happened yet. I felt really cool that I had already known who Nigel long was because he was an indie Asian comedian in the UK and I'm like,

Nathalie Cheung: 2:04

and even white people know him.

Kristy Yee: 2:09

I really want to talk to this girl now.

Nathalie Cheung: 2:13

Oh, Evelyn. Welcome somebody. And I love her podcast. I feel like they are. Probably the biggest voices in like the British East Asian space. and that they're still new, like their podcast. Isn't very established, but it's new in terms of conversations as a whole. And that they, I think that just shows like how much more we have to move, especially here in the UK. I don't know how you feel about where you are with, you know, quote Asian representation in Canada.

Kristy Yee: 2:38

I feel like it's very similar. I think maybe America is like a tiny, maybe a toe ahead of everybody else. But I think just from what I see, though, from what I'm exposed to the UK, Australia and Canada, we're all just starting out. We all just took that one first step onto the stepping stone of getting Asian representation in the media, getting our stories out there, having our faces be protagonists in Netflix, you know? That's all new. Like I can only name one show on Netflix that has an East Asian face. And I can only name one show that has a South Asian face. maybe movie I'm thinking about to all the boys I've ever loved. I think that's what it's called for the movie. and then I'm thinking I've never have I ever, cause I just binged that.

Nathalie Cheung: 3:27

Oh, I love that

Angie Yu: 3:28

I love

Kristy Yee: 3:28

my gosh. I literally watched all of it in one

Angie Yu: 3:31

Me too. I watched it in one weekend and I kept telling other people to watch it.

Kristy Yee: 3:35

It was brilliant. It was so

Nathalie Cheung: 3:37

good. Normally I feel like Netflix shows that I sit in high schools. I'm like, I'm too old for this. I can't watch Riverdale. I feel like I can't relate, but never have I ever was a great show,

Angie Yu: 3:47

right? Yeah. This is so relatable.

Nathalie Cheung: 3:49

for the boys as well, love that. Looking forward to the third one coming up.

Kristy Yee: 3:53

Oh, me too. Have you read the books?

Nathalie Cheung: 3:55

No, I haven't, I've only read the first one, but I love Lana condo. I think she's so cute. I'll always, whenever she's in, I'm like, yeah, I will support you even if it's shit. But it's interesting that you think that in um, Canada, that you're, what did you say? A toe, but I think that's an interesting way of looking at time ahead of us in the UK, because I've had that certain parts or at least like some major cities in Canada there are like really large East and Southeast Asian communities there. And actually when a couple of years back now, I posted on Facebook being like, I'm going traveling. which Asian place should I go to? And one of my friends from Canada commented and said, come to Toronto.

Angie Yu: 4:33

You know what that, that is the case. I would say Toronto is very diverse. It's kind of like a Canadian version of London, I would say. And I would say Vancouver is like a mini version of LA. Vancouver, we're on the West coast of North American continent. So we're closer to Asia and then Toronto is on the East coast. So they're closer to Europe. So I feel like the demographics kind of reflect that geography. However, even though we have a large population, the representation is still really lacking because the representation is the media and that's not something that we really have control over.

Nathalie Cheung: 5:07

Yeah. That's totally makes sense.

Kristy Yee: 5:08

and I do want to say like, you know, Angie and I are from Vancouver, which is huge. We do have a pretty big East and Southeast Asian. Population, but I also want to point out that we are an outlier, like Toronto and Vancouver were the biggest cities in one of the biggest cities in Canada. there's going to be a lot more immigrants that come over to the major city. So therefore we're way more diverse, but everywhere else in Canada, not so much.

Angie Yu: 5:37

Natalie, where are you located?

Nathalie Cheung: 5:39

Okay to date in the suburbs of London. So, yeah, you're right in saying it's a really multicultural city. When a lot of people that had come to live in London and called themselves, Londoners were not born and raised here, but I live way out in the suburbs. So the longer this quarantine thing goes on the less, I feel like I'm a Londoner, cause I never go into central London. What you would recognize as London? I never go there anymore ever, ever

Angie Yu: 6:02

Yeah, Yeah, I've been to London a few times. first time I went to London, I was a student had just graduated. So I had no money and I just remember London being so expensive because at the time it was like two, two Canadian dollars to one pound. So I remember. Yeah.

Nathalie Cheung: 6:21

late in England. People know London is like ridiculous expensive place to

Angie Yu: 6:25

Yeah. And especially here, I guess, in terms of representation, Here. Like what I said before, it's we're still a little bit behind, but in terms of food, we're definitely like way ahead of the benchmark. And I remember like I was craving Asian foods so hard. and by Asian, I mean, East Asia, because I know in London, Asia means South Asian and you have to specify East Asian, but here in Vancouver, Asian usually means East Asian. And then you have to specify South Asian. So I was craving East Asian food. So I went to Chinatown in London and I remember like, it was the cheapest place to get food because it was like seven or eight pounds for a bowl of noodles. And I'm like, man, this is like almost$20 Canadian for a bowl of noodles, but it was still cheaper than anything else. And I just remember my ex's family thought that I only ate Asian food because I just, that was the only thing I could afford.

Nathalie Cheung: 7:16

Oh, my God.

Kristy Yee: 7:20

you have to clarify

Angie Yu: 7:22

Well, the second time I went back, I had a job, I had like savings. I had money and I remember asking them for some recommendations, they just kept recommending East Asian places for me to eat. And I was like, Oh, no, like I'm looking for like, maybe some Spanish tapa because you know, some Italian food. And they were like, Oh, okay. And then I realized that they had for like four years, they have thought that I only ate Chinese.

Nathalie Cheung: 7:46

so strange. It was her boyfriend and his family or your ex boyfriend. Were they Asian?

Angie Yu: 7:50

no, they were white. Yup.

Nathalie Cheung: 7:52

you have a thing for English boys?

Angie Yu: 7:54

I did.

Nathalie Cheung: 7:55

I'm trying to scam through my contact list right now,

Kristy Yee: 8:01

I have a thing for English accent.

Nathalie Cheung: 8:03

right? Well that I can provide.

Kristy Yee: 8:12

So I want to get right into it. And in one of your episodes that I was listening to recently I think it was episode 10 you were talking a lot about your work in advocacy for women in engineering and about civil engineering. But one of the comments stuck out to me was you mentioned, like you don't really tell your mom about what you do at work and what civil engineering is about. And then I thought I'm like, Ooh, some shit, Natalie. Isn't telling mom.

Nathalie Cheung: 8:43

That's perfect for your podcast name? Yeah, definitely. Oh God. I haven't actually spoken about this, like really in depth in my podcast, but I, well, okay. Where did we start? Start from the beginning, maybe I was always a really good student and did everything that was laid out planned for me. So I finished school, went to university, or that's what we call it here to go to study civil engineering, as he said, and started working as a civil engineer or like the, you know, the general grad scheme, a big corporate, like very typical and very much like what was planned out for me all this time. My mom never really fully understood like what a civil engineer actually is. And sometimes I would like to have about what I was getting up to my day to day, because I would know that. She would much rather think that I was just in office all day, rather than ever going to a construction site, for example, which I didn't do that often, but it was part of my job. But actually the part that I didn't tell my mum is when I left that job. so pretty early in my career, I actually stepped out of a civil engineering role into what I do now, which I feel kind of bad thing because I've always advocating for diversity in STEM women in engineering. It's such a male dominated field. And I really liked to, you know, champion sponsor and support women who are pursuing careers in these roles. I was one who left really, really early. They talk about the leaky pipeline, like people leaving the industry, or even before they joined the industry. So they never make it to middle and higher management. And I was one of those but when I did my new job, I didn't tell my mom that I even had any job. I didn't tell her that I had changed industry or change role. And It was actually quite easy to keep it a secret, even though I live with her because everything was the same to house leaving at the same time every day, coming back at the same time and bringing home the same amount of money every month. Like there really was no difference in her eyes. And I kept that a secret for six months and I felt really like it was a difficult conversation when it actually came out in the end. So that's something shit you don't tell mom, is that a weird thing to tell you? Let's not tell your parents about your job and what do each of you do now?

Angie Yu: 10:52

I'm, I'm curious. Like what what part of it were you scared of? I guess? Cause it sounds like it was something that you feel like it might make you uncomfortable bringing up with her. Like, were you scared of a certain reaction from her?

Nathalie Cheung: 11:04

Yeah, definitely. I think people always want to live up to a certain expectation and I think for pretty much everyone. People end up stepping off, you know, what their parents expected of them. At some point, some people will do that when they're 15. Some people do that when they're at university. for me, it was like two years, three years into my career. And some people, you know, it doesn't happen until they have a midlife crisis and then change industry suddenly or become a life coach or whatever it is. but yeah, for me, yeah, it happened like quite early on in my career. And I think there's a, yeah, a lot of expectation, but also I just didn't want the drama. And I wouldn't say that, you know, there wouldn't have been a massive fight about it, but I just didn't want my mom's sort of new expectations about my, my job and the extra pressure that comes along with it. is that something that you can relate to.

Kristy Yee: 11:52

I can relate to the expectations part. And then also just dreading conversations. I dread conversations with my mom, even, even if I know that the outcome won't be crazy dramatic. I just don't want to go through the hurdles of having to explain why this is happening or, you know, explain why this is an okay choice for me to do. It just feels really exhausting to have to go through that hurdle and having to translate all that I want to say from English to Cantonese makes it even less enjoyable. So I can relate to how you don't want to have this big conversation with mom, even though it might not even be that it's still big, but it's not. We're not going to have a huge fight over it. I just don't want to have that big conversation,

Angie Yu: 12:41

you feel like it's your responsibility to help them understand? And I don't know. I think I, I, I definitely relate to it. And I think for a while I just felt kind of like, Oh, like my friends don't have to do this with their parents because their parents would understand. But because my mom's an immigrant, my parents are immigrants. They don't really understand how things work here. my parents never really pressured me into anything. They were never like uh, you must be an engineer. You must be a lawyer. You must be a doctor. I mean, I think in high school, my mom didn't want me to be a doctor, but then she realized how shitty of a student I was. So she just kind of gave up.

Kristy Yee: 13:16

but you're a great

Angie Yu: 13:17

no, I'm a horrible student. I'm a horrible student, like I'm not very studious. Like I'll, I'll do the minimum to get by. And I managed to get pretty good grades, I think to get into university.

Nathalie Cheung: 13:28

working, you know, what you need to do in order to get good

Angie Yu: 13:31

Yeah, exactly. And that's not, that's not a good thing because when you become adult, you're like, ah, shit. Now I get to have to like do real work, you know? But I think for me, there was a pivotal moment. Back in 20, 19, 2020. And I was just like, you know what? I hate what I do for a living. I've been miserable for the past four years. I need to change my job. I don't want to do this anymore. This is soulless. I need to do something that makes an impact in the world. And I really just thought about abandoning everything I've done to work in finance and just thought about abandoning my job and going into like journalism. Which pays like nothing in Canada. and I would have a really hard life, basically according to my mom. so I actually went on a trip to Toronto to go meet a school and talk about the journalism program. And that com Cal come back. And I talked to my parents and tell them that I'm going to go move to Toronto and become a journalist. And they they both just like exploded. And that was a reaction I was not expecting because my whole life, like they've kind of approved of everything I've done. And it was the first time really in my life. And I was almost 30 the first time in my life that I really, really experienced what it was like to not get approval from parents. And that's like, I that's super privilege of me. I totally understand. Like, I'm really, really. Lucky to have very understanding parents. So that was like a huge shock to me. I was like, what, how can you guys not accept that this is what I want to do? And they're like, you're just depressed right now. And I got into a huge fight with them and didn't talk to them for a really long time. I was also thinking, seeing a therapist at the time and the therapist was like, is it your job that you want to get away with? Or is it other things because the job is external. And if you're not happy with your current job, you're never going to be happy with any other jobs. And I was like, Oh my God. So I'm still in finance.

Nathalie Cheung: 15:29

There's very self-aware or not self-aware, but aware from your parents' side to give that sort of guidance, even if it isn't really what you wanted to hear, because I don't think I would ever hear that from my parents or my grandparents generation.

Kristy Yee: 15:43

Not to do. did you ever end up telling your mom when you switched careers?

Nathalie Cheung: 15:47

I did. But only as an accident. So how it came out was be on the trains. You just happen to be going somewhere at the same time that I was competing. And then I got off at a different stop than I would have. She knew where my previous office was and she was confused. She was like, Oh, aren't you going here? And I was just like and it took us so long to see, you know, figure out like what my actual job title and company name and workplace was. Well, my first job and it's taken just as long for her to figure it out from my current job. Like she has, she has my business cards stuck up on the fridge because she can never remember

Angie Yu: 16:19

that's so sweet.

Nathalie Cheung: 16:21

she can, but why this little came up now and I wanted to talk about it today. It's fun to talk about it is because I I'm actually changing jobs again in the spring and I'm currently thinking, should I tell my mom or not? And I asked that is because the other day she was chatting to my sister who is the nature of her work. She works with different clients. And my mum misunderstood as my sister is changing clients. Don't my sister was changing her employer and then she kind of freaked out and she was you overreacted. And I said, no, he's like so uncertain right now. I mean, financially the UK is probably at the very bottom of the recession and not going to stop coming up for at least a little while. And. Yeah, there's just a lot of uncertainty and she didn't want my sister to be putting herself in a situation where she, you know, is leaving us stable income. and my sister is, she's fine, but I am, I am changing jobs. So that's what I'm thinking. does it even matter if I tell her, if I don't tell her, am I overreacting overthinking it? maybe I'm setting a precedent that I'm now going to have to like live with for the rest of my life. And every, every job change,

Angie Yu: 17:25

Hmm.

Kristy Yee: 17:27

It'd be like telling you what to do, because we don't know what they are, but I'm curious to know from the first time, you know, how did mom take that?

Nathalie Cheung: 17:36

she was very confused at first. I didn't tell her I changed jobs six months ago, but eventually. actually to settle her mind, that's what I said. I said, you know, this is not a recent change. so her first reaction was yeah, complete confusion. And then she really didn't understand sort of what my new role was about. And sometimes I'll have a difficult time articulating it because it's not something as clear as, you know, lawyer, accountant, doctor, engineer, it's, you know, a bit more confused. And it's not this whole standalone industry. I don't even know how to describe it sometimes. so explaining it to my mom is always difficult, particularly because she's never worked in that sort of role, like an office job or professional job before. And her understanding very much comes from stereotypes and let her friends, so will her friends says good is what she thinks is good because that's her understanding of, you know, the working life in London. so yeah, at first the first was confusion. And then I sort of, um, try to settle her mind by saying that it has. No, it's been a change I've been living with for a while and she can see that I'm still stable. My life is still very much the same. And I think it took her like over a year to actually figure out what I do in my day job. And that's where the business card on the fridge help.

Kristy Yee: 18:48

Is it similar or does it transition well from your, your current role?

Nathalie Cheung: 18:54

To what I do now. but I think there's just unexpected things that my mum will sometimes fear. And I don't know whether you've had this, but my mom is very risk averse when it comes to COVID-19 stuff now. And she's always saying, you know, wipe down the grocery, stay away from people, always telling us to wash. I have wash everything which is good practice. I guess I don't want to get sick either. But with things about my new role, where I might be, you know, working with people in the general public or schools and young people or people who ages there may be, you know, I don't want her to worry and think that my new job is going to put me more at risk, things like that. So I think that's something which is going to come up, but I'm trying to yeah. Preempt it for you. Have that conversation before it happens. I'm guess I'm not looking for an answer, but it's just difficult because I don't want to regret telling her either

Kristy Yee: 19:43

Yeah, well, Angie and I are always big advocates of communication.

Angie Yu: 19:48

Yeah. And I think Natalie, what you're saying, like, you don't know if it's going to set some sort of precedent and you don't know what it's going to be like going forward. And I think a lot of that comes from like lack of transparency. And I think that lack of transparency comes from not communicating. And I think she worries when you and your sister changes your job or change your jobs because she feels uncertain about what's going to happen because of the lack of transparency. that's my take on it because I used to be like that too with my mom. And I've only grown closer to her in the last couple of years and I. At the beginning, when you first start communicating with your mom, it's really difficult, especially for us where we have such a large cultural and generational and you know, all those gaps with our parents. but I have learned that my mom has actually a lot more open-minded than I thought and certain reactions from her that I expect. she pleasantly surprised me with her reactions as time went on, as I open up to her more. And I think for people from our type of backgrounds, because our parents never had that relationship with their parents, it's really up to us to kind of initiate that relationship. And that's something that, yeah, Christina and I are huge advocates of because that's something that we're doing in our lives and we see the positive impact, then we're hoping that other people will do that too. But again, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just,

Nathalie Cheung: 21:14

No, that's really beautiful advice and not something that I've, you know, heard from other people. Like in my circle a lot, my sister was the saying, no, keep it a secret. well, how does it affect anyway, it doesn't really matter that much. but that's really beautiful advice, especially, you know breaking the cycle.

Angie Yu: 21:28

Breaking the cycle. Exactly. That's what I was just going to say. Like, it also depends on like, what kind of relationship you want with your children too, right? Like if you want children then you got to start practicing. Like it's hard because it feels, sometimes it feels like it's so much work. there have been moments where I'm like, Oh my God, why is this all my responsibility? Right? Like I have to be the bridge between the previous generation and the next generation that is now in Canada. And I have to make sure those cultural barriers are knocked down. Like, ah, it's ah, like it's so much work. Yeah. But hopefully it's all worth it. One day.

Nathalie Cheung: 22:02

Yeah, that's true. I always say like, the things that are worth having are not easy, so I should start listening to my own advice.

Kristy Yee: 22:11

Shouldn't we all shouldn't we all, it's always easy to tell others, you know? And, and I think the clarity when we see things from the third person is so much easier than when you are first person trying to make a decision on anything. We were, we talked a bit about careers and we talked a bit about, you know, the difficulties in sharing what that really is like to day-to-day to mum, because it's difficult. It's difficult to talk about. And even though we went through that trajectory or that typical trajectory of get good grades, go to university, get a good job. And then happily ever after it's not always happily ever after

Angie Yu: 23:26

No.

Nathalie Cheung: 23:27

It definitely, when I think back to when I was a teenager my perception of what like adulthood or my twenties would look like, and then compare that to the reality of, you know, how it actually is. It's just such a stark difference. And no one has, I dunno, no one told me what adult life was actually like and about how much of it is not really feeling sure and making it up as you go along. but since everyone has this common experience, why does no one tell teenagers and let's set the expectations or like set the expectations about the job that they choose is not their job for life. I mean, it's so rare for that to happen now. no one tells us, but I definitely feel like as I get older, there is more and more pressure to reach things by certain milestones, particularly like the big three zero number, which I know is something you've spoken about in your podcast as well. One of the episodes. and what is it about that big 30 number that makes it such like a. Yeah, a measure of success. I hate it.

Kristy Yee: 24:26

I think it's because of media. There's so many things that we're supposed to do by 30. And so then we internalize that and then of course our parents want us to get married and have kids by then because they did. Right. I think the timeline was, has been shifted through the years, but our parents are still stuck in their generation where by the time you're 30, most of their peers and themselves have established their careers and their families. And they already pumped out two kids. They already bought a house, you know? And so it's natural for them to expect the same thing out of their kids, because it was the same. They just expect that that map that they were given will apply to us when they give us the map. And then when we were young, we expected that. Okay, well checklist, checklist, checklist, checklist. Okay. Copy and paste mom's map, but Oh, it actually doesn't work in 2020 oopsie daisies.

Nathalie Cheung: 25:29

Yeah, it's definitely from parents and definitely from the wider, you know, Asian community as well, but a hundred percent in media, I feel like in media, like it's so rare to have a, like a middle woman who's ever taken this in like very different when it's men. So it's yeah. Something where it's sort of like, you're invisible. You don't have the storyline after the age of 35 40 when we know that that's not true. but yeah, barely everything's supposed to be happening in our twenties period. And I feel like a lot of my friends now can feel like that time. Lessening and can feel the pressure mounting from like everyone around them. and maybe if we don't talk about it, it'll go away, but it's think, do you think it's so ingrained in our heads that even if other people were not putting the pressure on you, you would be putting the pressure on yourself because it's so ingrained and intensely.

Angie Yu: 26:23

I'm like, Oh my God. Yeah, before I turned 30, I had the thing, like, I've always really wanted my own family, but I'm turning 30. Oh my God. I was like putting all this pressure on myself and I was talking to my mom about it. And my mom's like, look, I don't care if you end up not having kids or not. Like, I really don't. I'm like, what? But you always gave me the impression that you really, really want grandchildren. And she's like, yeah, I do. But like at the end of the day, it's your life. And if, if you don't want to have kids, then it's okay. Like no pressure. all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, but now I feel all this pressure on myself. No, I have nobody to blame, but myself,

Kristy Yee: 26:58

no, it's on you. Okay. First of all, your mom is hella woke. Okay. So like, I feel like outlier. I think but I do want to say that I think most parents are more supportive than we think they are, even though they might not verbally come out that way. I think at the end of the day, they just want things to be better for you than it was for them, because they knew how hard it was for them. Especially being new immigrants, coming to a new country and all of that. They just want you to have a better life. And they think in their minds, like no blame at all, the better life is to follow this checklist, go through the milestones, copy and paste this map and have kids and buy a house and all of that. Right. So,

Angie Yu: 27:42

I was going to say, I think maybe, I don't know, this is like completely conjecture, but maybe because both of your moms moved when they were in their twenties. So for them it feels like, Oh, the twenties is kind of when you take your risk and And then once you've taken your risk, then you need to settle down and kind of just no more uncertainty, like no more on Saturday. And they face so much uncertainty in the, in that part of their life that I'm sure it has left a huge, huge impact on the way their emotions work for my mom. She moved to Canada when she was like in her mid thirties. So I think for me to like, quote unquote, take risks now, I think it kind of like coincides with her timeline as well. She followed the, she followed out checklist of like, Hey, going to school and doing this and doing that. And she did all that. And she realized that life sucked. She realized that life

Kristy Yee: 28:35

Ah, she, she hit the quarter-life crises and she understood what that was like. Ah,

Angie Yu: 28:43

big. So because of that, I feel like that's why she's a lot more as Christie puts, it woke than a lot of other Chinese moms just because She followed that timeline. Like she did really well in school, but life still sucked, you know? And I think that's the same for a lot of people in our generation. We follow that checklist and then we did the best that we could. And we're like, but lifestyle.

Kristy Yee: 29:09

Or like you don't hit those milestones within a certain timeline, right? Like I remember I was like, okay, so I'm going to graduate by 24 and then I'm going to have a bomb ass career. And then by 26, I'll save enough money and then I'll get married. Then 28, I'm going to have my kids. Cause I don't want to have kids in the right at the beginning of my career, but I don't want to have kids after I'm 30. I specifically said that to myself. cause I want to be like still a young cool mom. So probably pump out two kids by the time I get to 30. And then when I'm 30, I'm going to have a house it's like big ass house with my rich ass husband and I'm going to be rich ass as well. And I have my two kids and then I will be at the peak of my career at 33. And that's what I'm going to be rolling in all the money.

Nathalie Cheung: 30:03

Why did they think that, that you're like, you know, one quarter of your way through your working life and then you'll be at your peak then,

Kristy Yee: 30:11

Yeah.

Nathalie Cheung: 30:12

going the fair.

Kristy Yee: 30:13

I don't, I don't know where that came from.

Nathalie Cheung: 30:16

It makes no sense.

Angie Yu: 30:19

But isn't that interesting? Like nobody ever said those words specifically. It's not like every, it's not like we all got a handbook that was like, you must accomplish these things we're of a certain age. But even, even though we're like from two completely different sides of the world, we all got that impression. And I think that's so interesting.

Nathalie Cheung: 30:36

And yeah, I think you're right. In terms of where you think that our parents' experiences really affect, you know, what they expect from us or we'll definitely in my case, I definitely think you're right in saying that because my mum has so much uncertainty and change in her twenties when she immigrated to the UK and she had to work really hard to set up a whole life for herself here. And it's sort of like once you have that life that's ability, that sense of feeling at home somewhere, why would you give the up? So that's very much sort of how she sees my, my perspective as well. And I definitely remember back at school days in my teen years where my family would always have a lot of pressure for me to be achieving like the top, top grades and. I looked at my equally high achieving, you know, friends who, whose parents are British and had gone through the same, you know, qualification system. And her parents had always have a mindset of ha I only got three CS and I went on to be a, this director and I'd have enough money to upgrade my house and car. And that was very much the perspective that they had. Like it's going to be all right. Even if you don't have like these grades and maybe, you know, my friends still put pressure on themselves and all worked hard for other reasons, but they didn't have that pressure from their parents because of their experiences. So, yeah. I definitely think you're true at that, that analysis. Yes.

Angie Yu: 31:53

That's very validating that my theory is applicable in this case.

Kristy Yee: 31:59

I also wonder if it's like, like, I don't, I don't know your mom net, but my mom came here in her twenties as well. And I think that when a lot of new immigrants come to a new country in their twenties, There's there's a lot of unwanted risk. Whereas now their kids are choosing to be risky. Like we're asking to be risky. And they're like, what the shit? Why would you want that? Why wouldn't you want stability? Cause that's what they didn't have. So they didn't have the stability and the comfort because they were just thrown in these risky, scary situations and they had to claw their way and figure it out all for themselves. And that's something that they would never want to go back to now that they have found the stability and the comfort. Whereas we were because we were raised and where we were raised, then I think that it's pretty privileged. So we were raised in a stable, comfortable environment. And then we realized that this isn't really what we want out of life. And we are choosing to seek risk and seek unstability, which boggles their minds. And that's what makes the conversation difficult because now we're coming from different value perspectives.

Nathalie Cheung: 33:18

But actually, I sometimes think that. With all, like, think about all the movies that come out about, you know, why your parents immigrated. There's always some sort of, you know, sense of struggle and doing things because they want a better life for their kids. But if I, if I, if I like up my life and moved to a different country, why I didn't speak the language fluently and I settled down there because I've thought it would provide a better life. It's not necessarily because I want to give my children better than what I had or whatever it is also. It could just be because I wanted an adventure and it might be fun. But we also, I think we, we put this really beautiful. The story on to all of our immigrant parents were very, might well be the case, but also might, well have not been the case that they were, you know, trying to give a better life for their future generations. But I think it's very common, particularly within Eastern, Southeast Asian diaspora that people, well, some people were refugees, you know, didn't have a choice at all about where they were going or when but I think. It's maybe like the modern day version for us or for of what our parents did of immigrating and trying to have a better life. The modern day version could be like us quitting our jobs, starting our own business, because we don't want to work a 40 hour a week. We want to work for ourselves work two hours a day from a beach hut in Southeast Asia, like live in hostels. And that's the best life that we want for ourselves. And that's the risk that maybe is the trendy thing for our generation. but I guess, yes, the ability and, you know, financial security doesn't always look like what it did for our parents' generation. It could be different for what it is now.

Kristy Yee: 34:55

Yeah. And I think it's just explaining that piece and bridging that understanding between, you know, our thoughts now, our values right now. it's not like I don't want stability and, and just in a different form. Right. It's exactly what that said. I, I want to work two hours a week, two hours a day in my hut in like Bali and then, you know, be in like Croatia the next month because I can, right.

Angie Yu: 35:28

Yeah. It's because we see it. We see it. It's like back in the day, like when our parents saw people move. To a Western country for a better life. And they're like, wow, like that looks amazing. I'm going to do that too. And then they do it. They realize that it's actually really fucking hard. and I can tell you, I have a, I know a couple who live in Bali and they travel and that's their, that's their job. And they've been doing it for several years now. And I can tell you, their work days are not two hours. Their work days are long, long, long, because they have to get up really early to get shots when there's no people, they gotta get to the golden hour. So they're usually up at like 4:00 AM and they're up til like really, really late editing and stuff like that. Like, it's, it's a hard life. Now they're settling down a little bit. They've got a place in Bali that they're going to stay there for awhile for long-term basis. I think to everyone, it just looks like a really good life, but it's actually very, very difficult

Kristy Yee: 36:28

Basically nothing looks like nothing. The reality is not what it seems like. Basically that's the takeaway. And no matter what the trend is in, in whichever generation that's going to hold

Angie Yu: 36:40

Yup. For us, it's the highlight reel of Instagram and for our parents, it was when people from abroad would go back with all the presents and things from abroad and they're like, wow, look, look how look we made it. But in reality, they're working really, really, really hard in Canada where in the UK or in America to make that life happen.

Nathalie Cheung: 37:00

Well, I love that message. Everyone's tasting like the freedom, the opportunity, but then behind that there's like the, all the hustle and the grind that comes with it. The reality of it, of that really interesting.

Angie Yu: 37:12

like having a podcast. Right. Like people don't know the, the, the Dusseau like pretty work that goes behind a podcast.

Kristy Yee: 37:22

Yeah. There's a lot of, articles saying like, Oh, podcasts is, you know to have a pockets of super easy. You don't, you know, it's what does that term, like?

Angie Yu: 37:32

Like anybody can start a podcast, which is true, which is true. Anybody can start

Kristy Yee: 37:36

It is true. It is true. I think a lot of misconception is, Oh, you just. Jump on the internet and then you record a conversation and then that's it. It's like, that is the smallest part of what we do in terms of the podcast, the actual recording and the conversation that is probably the funnest part, but it is a small fraction of everything else that we also do behind the scenes with the editing and the marketing and the audio, and, you know,

Nathalie Cheung: 38:03

Yeah. I think why so many people want to start a podcast is because they listen to podcasts, like, like the episodes where it's just YouTube, when you already have like great energy and you know, each other and you just bouncing off each other and everyone listens to those really entertaining. And then they look at their friends and then they're like, we can see that we have conversations. Everyone has fun conversations. but yeah, you're right. But having said that. I really like podcasts as a platform because it is really accessible to people who are camera shy. He don't have the equipment, he don't have a media background and there's no, you know, there aren't the barriers in the same way. There are with other mediums. And I think that's good because yeah, that's why I was always seeking out Asian voices through podcasts. And that's what, how I ended up starting mine as well. So if anyone's listening to this and thinks that they might want to start one, I would always encourage people to start one, wherever it is, wherever the message you want to power into the world, it because we need to hear it we always need to hear new voices and different people's experiences as well.

Angie Yu: 39:04

Just stories. Like that's one of the oldest art forms that we do as humanity. And that's always going to be done, whether it's movies, books, or podcasts.

Kristy Yee: 39:12

and now we just need more Asian, Southeast Asian, East Asian, South Asian stories. I'm going to pivot a little bit here. and that you had introduced me to a term that I have never heard before. And that was agent insoles In cells. insults

Nathalie Cheung: 39:45

Well, we can call them in silos.

Kristy Yee: 39:47

in cells. You're right in cells,

Angie Yu: 39:49

do you know what in sales are Christie?

Kristy Yee: 39:52

uh, involuntarily cell, involuntary celibacy people who are not having sex because they think that they are unattractive

Angie Yu: 40:04

Yeah, they kind of,

Kristy Yee: 40:05

I Googled them because I didn't understand what the term was. Cause not, not had mentioned it. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I don't know what this is. I'll let me see what it is. And I came up with some kind of scary shit. Came across some scary looking shit. So why don't that share with our audience? What exactly this is because I had just Googled it. So I'm not going to be the best person to explain it.

Nathalie Cheung: 40:31

think I am either, but that's the reason I want to talk about it on here, because it makes me uncomfortable. I ended up in a bit of an online agent in cell, you know, research whole, probably like the one Christy that you were in today. because it's something that I wanted to cover my podcast because I feel like it should be covered by someone who's Asian and that's definitely should be the right person for it. But I more, I read about it the more I thought I'm not the right person. To do this. but if other people want to, you know, be that guest who can bring in a different perspective, I'll be keen to hear from you because especially if you're male, I feel like there's a whole area of masculinity that I can't, you know, share my experiences of. So an insole is someone, as he said, he is quote, voluntarily celibate. And basically what it is is men who feel like they have a right to get laid, but they don't. And they start putting in all of these, you know, other reasons why about women and the patriarchy and all of these things, all of these things that they think are stopping them from getting laid and they get very angry about it, which is why it's so scary. And they end up in these usually online communities where they, um, you know, we will have our echo chambers online. I'm definitely within a. Asian representation, echo chamber on Twitter and people, and just end up, you know, seeing more content that reflects to them what they already agree with. so where that can be scary is that people can be led to, you know, more and more extreme views. As we know, from like the Netflix documentary, social dilemma, it's quite scary. It could be anything, you know? and in this case, it's when I don't know what it is. I don't know wherever they, like, they really want to have sex with women, but they hate women. That's like, well I'm, so is any kind of leads, you know, really dangerous cases of violence and awful things. again, I don't feel like I'm the best person to speak about this, but if you want to end up in a research hall about it, I would recommend it because it's, there's a lot to explore and it's not that well written about. to make sure I give enough of a background, because I feel like I I've heard this term and I've read a few different articles about it, but many people won't have. So I want to make sure I, yeah, get it, get it across as clearly as I can and hopefully accurately. so in Asian, in, so on, you know, similarly they are quoting voluntarily celibate and they but there's also a race element into it. And that's often the case where they think something like I'm Asian, but Asian women don't want to sleep with me because they are obsessed with dating men of other ethnicity, usually white men. So not only is there sort of a misogynistic or patriarchal view, but there's also a sprinkle of white supremacy in the, in the conversations, which is difficult because. And I think why it's such an interesting and complicated subject to explore is because yes, white supremacy exists as well as all these other things. And yes, women should absolutely have agency over who they date, but what is it? You know, how can we bring the, the community so there's no, it doesn't continue becoming more and more extreme and more and more opposed. I hope I explained that properly.

Angie Yu: 43:46

Yeah, no, I, I think you did a pretty good job explaining it. That's my question was like specifically on Asian in sales, I guess as well, because my exposure to in sales, I mean, a lot of it is from media too, because a, I think a couple years ago in Toronto, there was some guy who drove a van into the pedestrian sidewalks and injured. A lot of people kill some people. And the media really took the whole incell term into kind of like the main focus of that incident. so because of that, I started like same thing, like kind of going into the research and then just saw a lot of things that made me really angry. And that was really upsetting. And I'm like, I can't look at this stuff anymore. and yeah, I guess the Asian and cell thing is a thing too, and I was exposed to it a little bit. mostly with subtle Asian traits. there was a period of time where subtle Asian traits, Gus extremely toxic. They were just, it was just being flooded with a bunch of very misogynistic racist people, mostly men on posts that women would post. And I remember commenting on something where it was completely not even related to relationships or race or anything like that. And I think it was like a little bit political and someone's comment was like, Oh, there goes another w M a F feminist who thinks she knows everything or something like that. And I was like, wow, like that's okay. Fuck it. Like, I'm not even gonna. Like common back on this person. because it means that they actually went to my Facebook profile and clicked through my photos until they saw me with my white ex-boyfriend and they felt inclined to comment on the strangers comment on a post, on a Facebook group with like millions of people in it, just so that they can feel better about themselves. Like that was like my exposure to direct contact with quote unquote and Asian and sell. And I try not to be bothered by it, but a friend of mine she had reached out and she's like, what's w M a F. And I'm like, Oh, it means white male, Asian female. And she was like, Wait what's that because she is a Asian female and she isn't in a relationship with a white male. So she was all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh shit, this concerns me. So I guess she kind of went into those research hole too, and it made her very angry. and that's, that's the type of relationship that's really common in, in places like the UK and the us, and here in Canada, especially here in Vancouver, it's very common as well. and it doesn't make me like, look at my relationship a little bit differently. I think I became a little bit wary of telling people that I was in a relationship with a white man because I feel like it made people immediately judge me. and after, after really like reflecting on that for a little bit, I'm like, you know what, fuck it. I can't control what other people think about me. if they feel like they are entitled in who I can choose to be. In a relationship with then that's their own problem, but it's definitely a very, very difficult topic to kind of touch up on because it involves so many different aspects of like very uncomfortable and negative human emotions. You know, like you had mentioned in Natalie's like the misogyny and the white supremacy and the racism and all that.

Nathalie Cheung: 47:15

Yeah, and it's tough because I feel like I can understand all the different perspectives, not to the level of, you know, calling up people and, or definitely not getting violent, but I can't understand the different perspectives. I'm I just don't know how we can like, bring that back together.

Angie Yu: 47:30

Yeah. I it's such a, you know what you're right. I, I do. I do think that a lot of it, I don't think the mental health aspect is talked about enough with, these like quote unquote in cells. Because it is a mental health thing. They're, they're attributing and misplacing their own fears and their own insecurity on it's very, very much an external thing because it's so much easier to hate on something that's external than to be to be hating on yourself or to, to want to change something about yourself. I remember listening to a podcast when I first started getting into more of the Asian American stuff. I can't remember the podcasts exactly, but I'm going to try, try to find it and put it in our show notes. But I remember it might have been the Asian American radio with Ken, Ken, John, something like that. and the episode was about Asian males and how they felt about interracial relationships, especially between Asian females and white males. And one guy was like, Oh, now I'm like, he gave disclosure. He was like, Hey, I used to be one of those guys. And. I used to be one of those guys until I realized that it was actually on myself, but it was just so much easier to blame other people than to be like, Hey, you need to get your shit together. You need to get healthier. You need to be just a better person. Stop being such an asshole. And then when he realized that the responsibility was on himself, he stopped painting. And then he ended up in a very loving relationship and he said, he's not trying to like brag or trying to say like, Hey, if you get your shit together and you look better that you're going to end up in a relationship he's like, for me, the biggest lesson was like, I was blaming all the unfortunate things in my life on other people or on a social phenomenon, I guess. And it was, it took some time for him to actually realize that it was within his own, like with his own power to actually do something about it. And I think that's the. Mental health aspect is a lot of us, like whether it be attributing your depression to a job or a trip, Buting your hump unhappiness to your, to your body or something like that. Like, we, we think that we don't have control over these things. And I think it's just so much easier for people who have a lot of self-esteem issues to blame other people than to really work on it themselves. That's my take. I'm not saying that that's the right take, but that's my perspective.

Nathalie Cheung: 49:52

Yeah, that's a really interesting podcast episode. And I definitely want to check that out and listen to it, especially to hear that's all male perspective to be so honestly as well. And that's, I think that's a big problem with it. It's sort of there's the stereotypes around Asian men who might feel very like demasculated in loss situations and their experience is totally valid as well. So it's about how do you make sure that you, you know, recognize that their experiences are totally valid, but that doesn't mean it's okay for them to hate on Asian women, Asian women who may be dating a white man at the time. And there's a reason that the abbreviation years that that's, that's the most common abbreviation. The one where the genders are flipped is far less common far less recognizable and used and sort of what's the reason for that as well. So I do think that, you know, these agent in sales, a lot of what they think comes from their own experiences, but also their perception of, Asian women hate themselves and want to be closer to whiteness, which is a bold message. And it's definitely wrong any cases, but it's also not completely incorrect because there's definitely cases where I can only speak from my experience where, you know, you quote whites that tries to fit in and it's. Sort of a wider problem there as well, which is so difficult to change. Cause it's, you know, everywhere in an ideal world, it would change these stereotypes and these experiences. But well, you know, we're a long way from that and it'll take lots of lots and lots of baby steps to get there. So it's quite scary for me to think about these communities are brewing online and not even thought corners of Reddit like quite big well. could continue to put a drive and separating different parts of the wider

Angie Yu: 51:40

and I think, you know, there's something to be said about the fact that the in cell community is predominantly men. Because again, like what you said, there's this whole thing about masculinity that we will never understand. not to the point that men actually understand. and for, for them to experience all these things, they have pressure from society and they have to be a man. They can't talk about their feelings and there's all these different factors that kind of pour into it. And. This is one thing that we've talked about in our episode four as well. It's like nothing happens in a vacuum. the, in cell is a symptom of a larger issue at hand, right? And we know we have a mental health spin on our podcast. And for me personally, I think the in cells thing and especially the ones who are very violent and very outwardly whether it be vocally violent or physically violent, like it's a, it's a symptom of a larger issue I had, which is the lack of mental health support in those communities and the lack of mental health support for men.

Kristy Yee: 52:40

and I think even lack of mental health recognition, I think there might not, for some people they might not even associate like, Oh, this could be, this could be an internal thing for you, for someone to work on. You know, maybe some, like, I'm not saying, I'm not saying everyone, actually I'm saying everyone should get therapists because everyone should get therapists. We all got a teeth checked. Right. So how much to get a therapist? And then, and I think like if we, if we do that, then, then we're now broadening that Not only support for our mental health, but also the awareness or the normality of it. Right. And anything that, that would be really helpful. I'm hearing a few different things, like not a few different things, but I'm hearing like from Andrew, you were saying, you know, for some of these folks, it's a lot of it is internal awareness and, and things that, you know, they need to start taking responsibility for themselves. It's not because of society. It's not because of the women that they're not having sex. It's because they need to work on not being an asshole, work on some other self-confidence and work on themselves so that, you know, when they love themselves and other people that then you can attract more people to love you. Right. And we've said that many times, so it's, it's a self-worth thing. But then at the same time, we also mentioned themes of society and the pressures from society. And, you know, maybe it's society that needs to start changing some stuff too. So now we're, we're kind of pivoting a little bit between like individual responsibility and then social responsibility. And now I'm trying to bridge the two together thinking that, okay, well, if we want society to change, if we want to have a different perspective or different, I don't want to say expectations, but I don't know a different story from what the culture is telling us to do. Then we as individuals have to do that for ourselves, right. Because only when only when individuals change can society change together. I don't know anyone who is an in cell. I haven't come across and I just learned about the term like yesterday. But if, if I try to put myself in the shoes without knowing anything about the folks. Isn't that what they're doing like in their minds, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but in their minds, it's okay. We collectively, as insults have to band together and support each other to make a social change, to make a cultural movement, to, you know, rid all of these, they call them Sandy's and Chad's, which are all the, you know, good looking women and all the good looking men in the world. And they have to stand up for themselves. So in a way, I feel like in that community, they are doing something that is very, very proud and they are supporting social change.

Angie Yu: 55:30

So I think that the difference is like between the, I think the term in cell has been adopted by the people who are not trying to okay. Do a positive social change. You know what I mean? Like I think the term has been adopted by like very radical people. And especially, I also blame media for doing that too, because media will always label like, Oh, this person who's a known in sell on Reddit. just drove the van through a bunch of pedestrians, right? Like it's also the media carrying away with this term. but I think what you said, like when you Christie, when you first started talking about like self love and focusing on ourselves, that's a narrative that we have really adopted as women in 2020. Like you see that stuff everywhere on Instagram, like, love yourself. fuck the patriarchy, love yourself, blah, blah, blah. And the reason why we say that is we don't hate men. We just, we hate the system, but men can also hate the system. But yeah, I think when they hear the word, fuck the patriarchy, they feel like we're hating on them. Whereas we're really saying, fuck the system. This is just my perspective as a woman who has no idea what they actually go through, but like, why is there no, like I agree with you, Christie. Like there should be a social movement where we're like, Hey, men love yourself. Like, love yourself, go pamper yourself, et cetera, do all this stuff. And there isn't that movement. And how, how can we as women help men feel more comfortable embracing self-care and self-love.

Kristy Yee: 57:04

I think that is definitely a huge part of it. Like we need to start doing that. Like self-care and self-love is not just for women it's for everybody, but I think the, what I was trying to get at earlier was. Trying to see from the in cells perspective that they are trying to break the system. Bye things. By having these violent acts by, you know, speaking out in, in the online community by saying like, Hey, this is, this is not cool. We're not getting any of the women. And these are the reasons why, and so we need to band together and support each other as fellow in cells and do something about it to break the system. the thing I agree with these things, especially the violent part of it, right? And the misogynistic themes from it. I don't, I personally don't agree with it, but I can see how it can be viewed as a member of the Intel community. That this is a very righteous thing because they are changing societal ex they, they feel like they are wanting to break the system or changing the societal expectations.

Nathalie Cheung: 58:15

And we don't think of it as a positive change, but those within that community do, but who's to say, you know, which one is morally right or wrong, you know, it's definitely not for us to decide. And I think it's, it's

Kristy Yee: 58:30

Cause we're all like, yeah, we should change the system. This is it's, this it's a cultural thing and we should do that. Okay. We agree with it when it's stuff that we believe rings true to us, when we believe it's a positive change and we disagree with the groups who have a different perspective from us, but I can totally see them feeling the same thing. Like they think that this, this is a good thing. Right.

Angie Yu: 58:53

And that's how

Kristy Yee: 58:54

one of the article, I know exactly this is like Wars, religion, all of it, because they believe that their group is in the right and they are doing the right thing. So. I think that's where the discomfort comes from from me is that I can see where they're coming from because they are supporting what they believe. And they want to change the system, which is something that I have advocated for before, just in a different context. Right. So then, you know,

Angie Yu: 59:27

I'm gonna play. I'm gonna play the like mean person here or the devil's advocate here. Here is like, if, if the community really had that message, I think everyone would be a lot more supportive of it. But because the message, the term in cell in the Intel community is so dominated by people who actually hate women. I think that's where the problem comes from is that their movement is driven by hate and not actually driven by love.

Nathalie Cheung: 59:57

hate women, you know, inside and outside of that community.

Angie Yu: 1:00:00

right. No, and I, and I completely agree.

Nathalie Cheung: 1:00:04

the right thing, the right thing out of fear and

Kristy Yee: 1:00:08

so there's, there's that radical, there's a small radical side. And then there's everybody else. Right. And are we not doing the same thing right now with the in cell group? Like there are, is a small, very radical part that we don't, we don't support all that violence. but it doesn't mean that everybody in that community is like that. And, one of the articles that I read is that, you know, a part of the incell community, they actually underwent a schism. When the groups began to divide into more of a. Violet misogynistic, you know, the, the parts that, the characteristics, that us three don't support. And then there's the other group, which is called the in cell support group, which is

Angie Yu: 1:00:57

I didn't know that. I But that's media, right? Like the reason why people that, the reason why people associate the Islamic state with like misogyny or associated them with terrorists is because media plays up that narrative. And when I had admitted that my first exposure to that term was from this like violin person, that was my first exposure to this term. So my impression of in cells was off to a bad start. So the fact that there's an in cell support group, that's, that's great. I had no idea and I will admit my ignorance here. Like I had no idea there was a good side to in sales. I didn't know. I didn't know that they wanted to be associated with that term because that term was so like, it was so villainized and media

Nathalie Cheung: 1:01:49

This is a perfect example of the media, just doing a big sort of us and them. That has exactly what has happened here. And thanks for pointing that out. See, cause I wouldn't have known either.

Angie Yu: 1:02:01

And that's why podcasts are important, right? Because we're trying to put out more voices because the mainstream media is not going to do that for us. Same thing with the voices that we represent, which is the Asian voices. Hey, we're not a monolith, et cetera. we're not a virus.

Nathalie Cheung: 1:02:18

I think this topic is so scary. It makes you really uncomfortable to talk about, I guess, something that we can do as Asian women that hopefully is something that sort of both sides, or maybe all three groups, including us agree with is as well as self-care and promoting self care and mental health support for all, but also just things like. Like protecting Asian men. And by that, I absolutely don't mean break up with your white boyfriend and they an Asian man one small example that I think could have a really big impact. There's just, don't let your Asian male friends be the butt of the joke. We know it happens. We know it happens, you know, it's not just like kids in school. It happens throughout people's lives and it's in the media as well. We like have known it happened and it's continued to grow and grow and it's not our responsibility to fix and change it, but it is something that we can

Angie Yu: 1:03:07

I agree. And the, and the Dick size thing, like, that's one thing that I've never been comfortable with talking about with my female friends, because whether they're Asian or not, like, why are you reducing someone's Valley down to there? The size of their organ. Like, it's just so unfair. Like if if a man was talking about, I don't know, like not even our organs, but just talking about the way we look and making fun of it, like that would not be okay.

Nathalie Cheung: 1:03:31

Yeah. And I don't know about you, but Dick is like the least important part of sex for me. Like take it or leave it. It's not the most important part for me. That's all.

Kristy Yee: 1:03:40

yup. All through women here. Just gonna put that out on the internet. It is the last thing that we're thinking about. Well, we had a lovely time chatting with you today, not, I feel like we can just talk forever about so many different topics and so many different things. And I think that's because there's so many different topics and so many different things that are worthy be talking about. And so thank you again for coming on to our show. We had a lovely time chatting with

Angie Yu: 1:04:12

Yeah. And I'm just like, as a podcaster I'm like, what are we going to name this episode? Like lay there's, like, what are we going to name this episode? We've had so many good and like meaningful conversations that are so different from the different spectrums, right? Like,

Kristy Yee: 1:04:27

We also talked about so many different things. We started from talking about our careers. we talked about, you know, the difficulties sharing these things with our parents, life milestones and expectations

Nathalie Cheung: 1:04:44

I've really appreciated the space to share, but also your insights, which has been a real eye opener for me, You know, stuff that makes me feel uncomfortable, even things that I haven't explored on my own podcast yet, because that is something which is, yeah, I've really appreciated the space to share, but also your insights, which has been a real eye opener for me, I felt like I'm going to have to listen back to this episode that might make some notes about things that you share, because it has really changed my perspective on things, particularly things about the Asian in sales, which I don't even think of having a conversation with someone Asian about it in, in like with my voice. Like it's all this stuff that I read about. I get scared in my own head and I don't even know how to talk about it. So thanks for sharing and creating that space where we can have a discussion about all the nuances about the difficult topics as well. So, mazing, I love your podcast. Honestly. I loved your episode with Georgie and Chinese Tipico as well. Thanks for the space for British Asians.

Kristy Yee: 1:05:38

We have to support each other. Right.

Nathalie Cheung: 1:05:40

Yeah, definitely.