36. Negative Self-Talk and Equating Our Self-Worth with Productivity ft. Lucas Ng

Self-shaming. Struggling relationship. Disappointing Chinese Christian parents. Lucas Ng, Canadian actor and co-host of “Have We Made It Yet” podcast, shares how he got fired from his job triggered a cascade of endless negative self-talk, thoughts of self-harm, and eventually going to therapy 5 years later. 

**Content Warning: Self Harm**

Takeaways:

• Traumas can resurface years after they happened
• Can’t expect your partner to be your everything 
• A constant need for control might actually be your own denial of your mental health struggles 
• Talk with your younger self with compassion and love 
• 20s is when you figure out who you are
• 30s is when you figure out what you want 

Mentions & Resources:

• Lucas Ng Instagram
• Have We Made It Yet Podcast (Documenting experiences as new entertainers and artists looking to "make it" in the entertainment industry)
• Ep 27. Our Shit: Suicide Ideations and the Depression Roller Coaster

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Transcript

Angie Yu: 0:00

but I never mentioned that I was really underperforming. I was really hiding. I felt braver talking about the mental health side then I felt comfortable about talking about how I had failed at being an employee. I had failed at being just like a functioning person in society, because there was so much shame.

Kristy Yee: 0:46

Welcome back to another episode of shit. We don't tell mom today. We have Lukas Ng joining us, he is a friend of Angie's. He's also a fellow podcaster and he hosts his own podcast with his friend, Josh yang called have we made it yet talking about ins and outs of making it in the entertainment industry? So Lukas he's a Chinese Canadian actor currently living in Toronto and Lukas was brought up in a pretty religious Chinese family, and he wishes that we could talk more openly about shame and guilt. So welcome Lukas

Lucas Ng: 1:18

hey everyone. What an intro. Thank you.

Kristy Yee: 1:21

I know I practiced every day in the mirror. No, I did not.

Lucas Ng: 1:24

Love it.

Kristy Yee: 1:25

I'm excited because you grew up in a really religious Chinese family. I interpret this as very strict, very like lots of rules, et cetera, et cetera so first off, like tell us more about your childhood and what was it like growing up in that super religious family upbringing?

Lucas Ng: 1:44

Yeah, I mean, I'm going through therapy. Right. You know, or I'm in therapy. A lot of it is unpackaging that childhood that I was raised in, Don't get me wrong. It was, it was good. I was never in want. I was never in need of anything. I had a whole community of like church going friends and everything like that, that I, that I grew up with. And it was, it was really good to at least have a community of people that I can always rely on back in my childhood, but just unpacking it and looking at it from like a 10 year distance road. It was a lot of, it was based on like a, a punitive fear that I constantly had whenever I wanted to either mentally or physically step out of this kind of a mindset that I had. I would say about like my first year in university, when I realized I can't do this lifestyle anymore. That my faith could not give me the openness to experience life as I wanted to. And that going into my first like public institution, which is a university, because prior to that, I was always in a private, elementary school, even in a private high school that university really opened my eyes to, to a much bigger world that I could experience. And when I did experience it, that's when the first, uh, felt shame in experiencing something new.

Angie Yu: 3:02

what do you mean by shame and feeling something new? Like, did you feel like, yeah. W what do you mean by that?

Lucas Ng: 3:08

Yeah first off, I think what separates, say, uh, white Christianity, as opposed to, um, say Chinese Christianity is that. a lot of Christian principles can be, this is, this is for a lack of a better word, but can be twisted in, in a way that, that amplifies the Chinese side. So the Chinese side, of course, as we kind of know, Um, emphasize the, the collective emphasizes that we all roll together we all think the same thing in everything. And so the moment that I was exposed to something new, I felt like I was breaking rank. I was going rogue. And w at the moment, even mentally, when I started stepping outside of that kind of mind frame, you know, you start taking a look back and you, and you realize no one is really going with you. And that's where that initial shame does come from that the unknowing. The unknowing and also the presence that you have behind you is not there anymore. And so you, you might misconstrue that feeling of stepping out as that's something immoral and that that's where that initial feeling of shame comes from.

Kristy Yee: 4:15

it almost sounds like, you know, you were brought up in this community, this Christian faith community, and you were very comfortable there. And you know, you had friends, family, you were in private school. Was this a Christian private school? I'm assuming.

Lucas Ng: 4:29

Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 4:30

And then when you went into post-secondary. And you were exposed to a lot more. I don't want different ideologies and mindsets, et cetera. You realize that, oh, there is other things outside of this bubble, this community that I was so comfortable in and stepping outside of that bubble to learn more about it made you feel kind of isolated because you turn around and nobody else is there with you. Nobody else from your community is walking along this journey with you. And you also feel like you're kind of like turning your back on your people.

Lucas Ng: 5:01

exactly. Like, like great point about turning back because it, and this is like kind of cringy at times too. Like I remember again in like my, my second year of university, When I like really wanted to cut ties with the church and everything. I remember I wrote an email to my like close friends back at church. I was like, sorry, guys. I can't go to Bible study. And more, my beliefs currently just can't coincide with the beliefs back of the church and looking back it's like, why do you have to do that only because why did you have to make your cuts so explicit? Like there's no point. but yeah, like, like to your point though, it, it, it is that kind of like stuffing stepping out and then looking around you and realizing, okay, we're back at square one. I have to create my new group. I have to create a new identity and. Out of that new identity could come great things, but also shame and guilt is related to that too.

Angie Yu: 5:51

When you say that you felt like it was cringy when you wrote that email? I actually think that's really brave. I feel like that, like you said, you wrote an email to them because it coincided with the fact that your beliefs are no longer aligned and it was something that they would not do. Right. Because it's so explicit say it's so direct, but I feel like that coincides exactly about where you were mentally and emotionally with your spiritual side is that you felt like I Renegade. So for you to write them an email, it's kinda like, well, that's kinda like very parallel. We're very on brand for you.

Lucas Ng: 6:31

Yeah. Thanks. Like, I, I never thought of it like, like a Renegade, but, but yeah, I guess so, I mean, Uh, one of the main things that, uh, that I wrote in my journal before coming on here was like, I was raised to think that I was never anything, you know, I was raised to, you know, of course finished my undergrad, going into the family business and uh, and continue with life, continue on with that Ng legacy, you know, but, you know, essentially I broke ranks with my Christian life. I broke ranks with was like living with my girlfriend outside of wedlock, leaving home before I got married and all that stuff. And now like Pursuing acting and going into the entertainment field, all of these things right now have just really amplified that kind of, I guess at times, fight in me I was always raised up to think that I was nothing, but I always want to reclaim that, that I am something. And I guess that that fight has always been there even prior to me moving out to Toronto.

Kristy Yee: 7:30

I think that's incredibly. Okay. I'm going to I'm like brave. Wait. And you just said that God damn it.

Angie Yu: 7:36

I'm really impressed. I'm Lukas, I only hung out with you like once or twice, know in Toronto. Uh, but I, I wish I had know like known you more intimately longer because like, I'm just so astounded by this journey. You're going through with the journey that has started a while ago. Like, even with the fact that you're in therapy, like, I don't think I can list my handful of people. That are men that are going to therapy.

Lucas Ng: 8:05

And I'll be honest, there's, of course there's a lot of like financial barriers going to therapy and everything. And, and I have to give, props to my girlfriend, you know, I am in a position right now where my, you know, incoming. Decreased incredibly, you know, I used to have a cool job back working at visual effects, you know, of course benefits and everything, but right now I'm an actor, so there's not a lot of stuff. So I need to like work a flexible job, all that, to say, it's my girlfriend's benefits that have allowed me to position to go into therapy. and explore that. But it was also because of her, that she exposed something within me. That that was really powerful because, and this might divert from the story, but, I guess we were going through a rough patch it was, it was always hard. This was pre COVID too and everything. And she, and I both realized we can't be each other's everything. you know, I expected and this is, this is bad. I expected her to be my best friend, my confidant, my counselor, my therapist. At times even anonymous shame to say this at times, even like my emotional punching bag, because it was just, I had so much angst in me at times and she just said, Lukas, I can't be your everything. This is ridiculous. You know, we don't always have just one friend. you. know, we have a dentist, we have a electrician, we have all this other stuff. it was because of that comment that she made that really pushed me towards growth and finding a third party to, to go into these deep seated issues that I, that I had. and so just props to her for giving me that opportunity to go.

Kristy Yee: 9:33

I can't be your, everything. I think that is such a, that's going to be one of our takeaways already. We're only like 10 minutes into this conversation, you know, because I think oftentimes like when we are in a relationship we spend so much time with this person. We feel the most comfortable, most vulnerable with this person. And we end up carrying a lot of expectations for this other person and we just keep throwing it at them and it doesn't help with like media doesn't help.

Lucas Ng: 9:56

Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 9:57

Telling us that this person is your number one and they are your best friend and confidant and et cetera. And they totally can be, but a human only has so much capacity and they have their own shit going on too. And we need to respect that as well. Oftentimes we don't remember, especially when we are going through our own stuff and I say this from a personal level, and I think Angie can relate as well. Cause like when I go through my depression phases, the first person I think about turning to would be my boyfriend because that's the person I am like the closest person in my life. Right. The person that I love and what I always have to actively do is remind myself that I can't always just put my shit onto this one person. Like I got to spread out my load, you know, and we've said this in previous episodes before, but you got to spread to shit. You know, you gotta spread that shit out. And not only does that help you realize that there's actually a lot of support in your circle. It also helps them realize that, oh, it's okay to be vulnerable with not just your significant other, but with other people as well. And, and overall, I'm not burdening someone with all of my load.

Lucas Ng: 11:02

Yeah. And, and, and, and you touched upon that great point too. It's, it's spreading, literally spreading the load because one person already has their own internal shit that they're dealing with. Maybe not visibly. They are dealing with it internally, already themselves. And you as a selfish person coming through and unloading more of your stuff onto another person who is already dealing with their own stuff, it's going to overflow. They're going to grow resentment towards you and they don't want to listen to you anymore. And so just for the sake of our relationship and I'm sure for, for yourself too, just for the relationship, it's best to almost sometimes just keep some things to yourself and spread it to other people. Of course, don't, don't spread toxicity and all that stuff, but at the same time, Like we need help. And sometimes our own intimate partners are not the best people at

Angie Yu: 11:50

Yeah. Like everyone has their own specialization and your partner can also specialize in everything. they can't be like for supporting beams in your life. They can only be one or two, sometimes three. And then you have other people that are also one or two or sometimes three, like they rotate. Right. Actually the point you bought, brought up about how. It was kind of when your partner went, Hey, I can't be your, everything that you started to think, you know what? I'm relying too much on her. Um, I'm not relying on myself enough or not relying on the other support systems in my life enough. And I can relate to that a lot because my last relationship ended on a very soured note. There wasn't enough communication because during the rough patch that I had went through with this person, I was like at my most depressed ever, but I didn't know how to, I didn't even know I was depressed. and it was just a law for the other person, but the other person didn't also didn't have the emotional tools to deal with that either. So the relationship ended. I started seeing a therapist and I've been seeing her since, and during the period of time, I was single. I was alone actually, when I went to Toronto, that was part of my, like whole single getting to know myself better. Like I went to Toronto alone, I met up with different friends. I went to Quebec, like, it was so much fun just getting to know myself again. Right. And, um, so I did that for a long time. And then I met my current boyfriend, end of last year and everything was going really great. I was seeing my therapist a bit less as well because I was running out of stuff to talk to her about because I had worked through so much, so much of my problem on my own, but then the triggers that had been there that was difficult to work with on your own, because there's only so much that can happen when you're by yourself. With things started to happen with my current boyfriend. I couldn't work through the triggers alone. So I had just started seeing my therapist again. And I remember one of the things that she said that really resonated with me. And I think it's so parallel to what you're saying is that. Because I was so codependent, like emotionally co-dependent with my last boyfriend, it felt like we didn't even have to communicate because we would know what each other was thinking. And then I was telling her like how, like, I have trouble communicating with my current boyfriend and it sounded like it was his problem, but it was actually my problem because I was expecting him to read my mind and I'm like, I just want him to know everything about me that way. Then I don't have to communicate

Lucas Ng: 14:18

Yeah.

Angie Yu: 14:19

so much easier. Um, and then

Kristy Yee: 14:21

I was just supposed to know all this stuff. If you don't

Angie Yu: 14:23

yeah, well that too, right. I'm like, oh, I know, like he's not going to know anything, but she was also like, is it reasonable to expect one person to know all of you? And then I'm like, you know what? Yeah, it's not. And it wasn't until she put that question now that I was like, oh, I never thought about that. That way. She's like, isn't it more interesting. To have a relationship where you continuously find out things about the other person and continuously have that emotional bond. And I was like, oh, damn.

Lucas Ng: 14:52

Yeah. There is a really big thing to speak to about like, discovering new things about your partner. Like of course, I mean, you can ask the basic questions, like you discovered that her new favorite color or something like that, but I've been with my girlfriend for officially since like 2013. So right now we're at eight years now, almost close to nine and, you know, none of my relationships prior to this has ever lasted this long, of course, But there's something about knowing a person so intimately that like, you know, their triggers, you know, what can set them apart? You know, what can, what can really hurt them? What can really make them happy and everything. But even though you might know so much stuff, there is still something that maybe it's an off day too, but you say one thing and it's like, it kind of spirals out and it kind of relates back to like, another thing that you might've said prior, but it's just this constant learning that you always have to do to recalibrate yourself, which, which comes out of like going into therapy. So you know how to be like, be a better person

Angie Yu: 15:49

Yeah. And when I talked to my therapist, I'll like, she'll say something and then I'll go off into this days where I'm thinking and she'll be like, what are you thinking? And I would be like, I was like, well, we always talk about how it's a journey in getting to know ourselves. Why would we expect to know someone else in such a short amount of time, it's a journey and getting to know yourself better. It's also a journey and getting to know the other person better. And, and that that's exactly like what you said. Like, even though you have been together for almost nine years and you know, all these little things about each other and you avoid the triggers and you do things to make each other happy, but Hey, maybe they're having a bad day and then something comes up or like something in their life changes. And like, you never know, it's still a journey.

Kristy Yee: 16:30

And, you know, people change. And I like that word recalibrating because you may think, you know, someone really, really well, but every single day, us as humans, we encounter different people. We encounter different experiences. We see different memes on Instagram. You know what I mean? Like our thoughts change, our opinions can change. And like we grow as humans and, I'm growing because I'm trying to learn more about myself and, and therapy helps with that. And it sounds like therapy is helping you on that journey to Lukas. And as we keep growing, we are changing every day. And so our. And us as partners, we need to also recalibrate and grow and learn with them to

Lucas Ng: 17:15

yeah. It's so true. A big reason, again, like why I went to therapy. It was just because life really happened in Toronto. like, I was fired from my first job here, which is to this day, I'm still in therapy because why I initially went into therapy. It was just my incredible ability to just negative. Self-talk constantly about myself to the point where my girlfriend was just, you go to see someone about this. You, I don't want to be with someone who's constantly putting themselves down. And if there was a triggering event, it was that first firing because it rattled me at my core to my own self-confidence so life just happens and, it's incredible how much it can. It can really wrap.

Kristy Yee: 17:59

Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that? that event

Lucas Ng: 18:02

yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, uh, it's still a work in progress and all that stuff too. But, uh, so w um, me and my girlfriend, we, we came to Toronto, back in 20, 20 14. we, we moved here jobless and homeless. It's a cool story. Like, I'm still writing like a screenplay about it and all that stuff to, uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because life really happened in the city. we were, again, we came here jobless and homeless. I found the place that we're currently in still right now. And thank goodness, we're still paying good rent and it's a great place in downtown. but the first objective, when we first got here was to look for a jobs to get some income coming in. and I was pursuing my media dreams. So I was, I was only going to work at like TV studios or like animation studios. Luckily I found a job pretty fast at an animation studio. that's still producing great stuff. It's the state right now. I was working in marketing there, and met some great people, but my direct reports were just w I guess we just weren't compatible, but to be put at bluntly, like, I don't think they're that good of people to begin with. constant managerial changes from my boss to eventually the point where the owner of the company just said to my boss. That, uh, they did not trust working with me anymore because. Some issues that were not, that were above my control. And, uh, they let me go. And I still remember walking into the HR office that day, that Monday morning thinking I was gonna possibly get a promotion because I had really proved myself for a lot of ways. And then getting sat down and just said, here's this letter, please vacate the premises immediately.

Angie Yu: 19:41

God.

Lucas Ng: 19:42

And I don't. Yeah. And, uh, I remember walking, walking out and still in complete shock. I remember sitting at a Starbucks that I was nearby and I've never said this out loud actually, but like we were, we lived kind of close by the lake and I remember like contemplating the idea of like jumping in. Like, it was just so much shame and the worst part of it. And it just reminded me. My parents were in town visiting me that week. like walking and then, I mean, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie to them about this stuff. Cause eventually like, come Tuesday the next day, they're going to say like, what, why aren't you at work? You know, I can't make up that whole lie. So I just told them on that day. And I remember walking to the Airbnb and it was the same face of disappointment that my dad had when I like failed my, my L license three times.

Kristy Yee: 20:45

For our international listeners, that's a, that's the learner's driver's

Angie Yu: 20:49

Yeah. It's a written test that you have to take so that you can actually start learning how to learn, how to drive, like in the actual car. Uh, don't worry. I also failed

Kristy Yee: 20:59

that you are allowed to learn how

Angie Yu: 21:00

Yeah, yeah,

Kristy Yee: 21:01

I also felt the L two, so it's no shame.

Angie Yu: 21:04

And I did not read the book and yeah. Anyway also failed the three times.

Lucas Ng: 21:10

Nice, nice. nice. Yeah, so I remember like him sitting across from my, my mom was like standing with her arms crossed and they weren't mad. They were just disappointed and, and just maybe slightly embarrassed at the same time, too. And if there's anything that you never wanted to point, of course disappoint yourself. You, you feel it, but to also like to support your parents in the most visceral of ways that that's what really stuck out to me and to this day, it's I can, I'm still working through the emotions of it. Cause I, I know I was fired unjustly and, but it, it got me to that point, you know, What else could I have done? What else could I have saved my job? You know? and then all I internalized all of that and it manifested itself into incredibly low talk about myself like Lukas. Remember when you're, when you thought that you were raised up to be shit, you know, that you ain't shit all well, it's true. You know, remember when you were like fired from your job. Yeah. You know, that's that just confirms everything. So like to this day, even though it's like about three, five years ago now, I still catch myself at times when I'm doing something really monotonous, you know, like putting clothes away. And I have my manager's voice in my head, screaming at me for doing something wrong. Quote, unquote, wrong. And. I am still working on it because these triggers really kind of have a way to just press at my own core identity and, and rattles it. So it's, it's something that I'm still working through to this day.

Angie Yu: 22:49

My heart really like dropped when you were telling that story, like, I can hear the pain that you went through, but I can also hear a lot of healing as well as cheesy as that sounds. I do hear that and I'm happy that you're here and I think it's, there's always shame and guilt bell thinking. Hey, maybe I'll walk into the lake or like my parents are here and I've just disappointed them again. It's shame and guilt. And, it's again, it's like a lifelong journey of working through it and the whole negative self-talk thing, like you said, you were expecting a promotion and you thought everything was going really well. And it's just, whew, man, that's rough being blindsided by your managers who are supposed to care about your wellbeing and their own wellbeing. But from the sounds of it, like this manager was yelling at you or shouting at you for doing something, quote, unquote, wrong. Fuck that guy.

Kristy Yee: 23:40

you know, you mentioned, you felt like that firing was unjust, you and Angie mentioned the expectation of you feeling like, oh, I might get a promotion to being completely 180 around that drop is even way more intense than if you had no expectation at all from HR. Right? Cause then your, your fall won't be as impactful. But what your manager did say was, oh, we can't trust you. I thought that was really curious because they make it sound like it's something, they just put the, all the blame on you

Lucas Ng: 24:15

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it, yeah.

Kristy Yee: 24:19

trust is a huge thing, right? Like it's a, it's a secret thing that we all value a lot in, in any sort of relationship and the manager to say like, Hey, we're going to let you go because we can't trust you anymore. That's a huge slap in the face. And just completely saying, this is all you Lukas. It's not our fault. So that, that break of trust, if you like, I did something wrong and now you can't trust me anymore. I feel like if, if that were to happen to me, that would just add fuel to the fire of negative self-talk because it's now a blame on you, Lukas. And that's what shame is. Shame is us blaming ourselves, labeling ourselves as stupid, as incompetent as you suck. Right? It's not, oh, I did something that was stupid. It was like, I'm stupid. Right. And what they said was like, oh, you, you, you, you didn't do something that was quote unquote wrong. It's like, I can't trust you anymore. Lukas that's so I don't know. I don't, I don't even know how to explain this in words, but I feel like you're getting what I'm

Angie Yu: 25:26

It's it takes it to such a personal level. Like not

Kristy Yee: 25:30

Yeah. They just personally

Angie Yu: 25:32

you. Yeah. And the thing is like, Hey, I can trust you. Well, maybe the problem is you. And the thing is with fairings, it's not like a relationship where you can like, there's okay. Most relationships don't end well, but like at least there is a chance that you can talk things through with the other person. And

Kristy Yee: 25:51

What have you most relationships don't end well.

Angie Yu: 25:54

okay. Not most, but like, I would say like maybe a good chunk of relationships out there sometimes. And on a sour note, especially if it's like the first relationship, you know? Cause that's when you don't really know what to expect. but the thing is like, people don't expect work to be like a two way thing and your managers and the people you work with have so much authority over you that it's like, it's really unfair. And it's. I think it can even be more detrimental than like a relationship relationship.

Lucas Ng: 26:21

definitely. that there is something about, getting fired that really does hit at your core of capability. of your industrial input and this is all wrong because a person's worth is not dictated on their industrial output. That's all like capitalism bullshit, you know? but there's something about, first of all, not having, not being able to actually like, you know, contribute, but there is also something I felt, a person having that much power over you that they can actually strip all of that away from you at a moment's notice and take away literally your livelihood. I remember it was my first time going on EI after this whole incident. And, and just for listeners, if you did want to get this in th th I, I didn't like steal any money. It's this isn't like anything like trust, really trust related. And it was just because they wanted me to talk to a client about a project, but I had talked to the client about project B based on misunderstand. Really something simple. but there's something about the shame again, that, that you go through after getting fired, because then you have to go to an EI and then understanding that whole process of starting again. And you, you know, back in Vancouver and when everything was kind of comfortable, you'd never really had a second thought about like, you know, I'll get take out whatever, but then you're literally counting the cents in a city that has minus 30 winters. You know, of course, heat, we got the heat, but there's something just miserable about being alone and having to rattle your own self-confidence and having to do it in a new city and then having to re-establish yourself again. So if there's anything that I just really learned, it's the resiliency involved in finding yourself, but also pursuing your dream. You have to be incredibly resilient.

Angie Yu: 28:08

Wow

Kristy Yee: 28:09

Yep, because you were just throwing all these negative circumstances. While being in a brand new city like that alone is already a, a huge change in anybody's life. But you have to manage all of these expectations from your family and friends of course. Right? Like, cause that that's important too. And we feel ashamed about going on EI and EI is employment income. Is that right? Insurance,

Lucas Ng: 28:36

Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 28:36

it's insurance from the government. They give you some money when you lose a job.

Angie Yu: 28:41

I mean, we pay into it, but yeah.

Kristy Yee: 28:43

you feel ashamed. Yeah. And, and I relate because I was on EI once and I didn't tell my friends because it's shameful. Like I, I feels embarrassing to say, and you have to manage all of that while being in a new city and your parents are in town. Like there's so much stuff happening. So I feel like. What am I saying? I'm not not saying negative. Self-talk is, oh God. Now I'm labeling shit. Okay. See, this is great because I'm getting uncomfortable.

Angie Yu: 29:14

I know what you mean. Like you don't want to, you know, I, I think I know where you're going with this, but

Kristy Yee: 29:19

I want to, I want to validate that it's so easy to slip into the negative self-talk space because your manager, what happened at work in that incident, they already put a lot, they were the one that sparked the fire, but then they also added some gasoline by throwing the trust thing at you, right. By just totally shaming you and being like, this is all your fault, Lukas. Right? so you internalize that and you say that this is my fault. And you use that as an example, to validate your own self worthlessness

Lucas Ng: 29:50

Spot on. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Angie Yu: 29:52

Really well said.

Lucas Ng: 30:55

I never really dealt with that negative self-talk until recently until like about 2020. So this was about like. five years removed from, since I've noticed it within me and wanted to cure it. But there is a certain point that, just your, your natural need for, for, for like food and, and just to, to make yourself kind of worthy, like finding a job then became like the number one priority again. So I never dealt with any of those kind of mental aspects that I had in my life. And that actually led me into a bigger fire that I was in. So I was out of the frying pan and into the fire after that. Because it was about like about eight months of like joblessness, you know, constantly applying for jobs and everything like that. Eventually found a great job at another animation studio. and I should have known this from day one, but like, there was a lot of like grumblings that like things were not going well in terms of its foundation, literal foundation. And back when it was still there, this was the biggest animation studio in all of Canada. Like it rivaled Pixar in terms of like people. that they had working for them, through just constant. Uh, bosses my boss getting constantly a rotating door. The CCO that creative chief officer asked me directly after my boss was fired. She just said, Hey, uh, what do you want to be Lukas? What do you want to be? And I was like, I want to be in development. I want to read scripts. And I want to eventually Greenlight projects for the studio. She's like, okay, cool. Let's do this. You'll be my protege. You'll be my second. You'll be my number two. You'll read all the scripts I'm reading. You'll see all the develop meetings we're going through. I'm like, this is it. I found my dream position. This is amazing. I can go to LA with this one day, I can go back to Vancouver and like develop great Rick and Morty, like projects, you know, one day it's going to be awesome a month after she said. But there were constant the rumblings of the company going under or getting more and more and more louder eventually to the point where after an August long weekend, I was on city news and I saw my company name on there and it said, my company name bankrupt, all 500 employees, including myself, all lost their jobs on that same day.

Angie Yu: 33:06

whoa.

Kristy Yee: 33:07

Oh, my God.

Angie Yu: 33:08

500 people. Holy crap.

Lucas Ng: 33:11

And the most fucked up thing was they were still hiring people up until the day they went under, people were coming in from London, from the UK. They were thinking they were going to get PR sponsorships. So like I'm thankful I wasn't on a plane. And then realizing I had no, no more, no more work, but I just remembered. I thought I had found my dream. But so then wake up the next day, finding out on a plastic sheet of paper from on the studio class, front door saying, sorry, we can't pay our lenders anymore. The studio was now locked out to finding out you have nothing. Now again, it incredibly rattled me again because I thought I had something and again, back to nothing. And then I was second in not command, but like closest to the CCO, to this person who is supposed to know everything about the company, but she kept everything from me. And then again, I internalize that I'm like, I was so close. I should have known why didn't, you know, Lukas, you know, everyone was kind of asking you, but you were you just too dumb to know, are you that bad at your job, Lukas? And that really rattled me to the point where I got. I don't think I could've like gone on any, any worse, you know, and again, I did not deal with those issues of negative self-talk again, but they were even more amplified after that experience.

Kristy Yee: 34:33

It's like you, you are constantly going through this series of disappointment, these like highs and low disappointments being put in situations that you don't have control over, but you internalize that it is your own fault.

Lucas Ng: 34:47

Yeah. And I'm wondering like, like I'll throw this out to you guys, like, like, do, do you, do you feel at times you internalize these kinds of events that you don't have control over as a control for mechanism as a control mechanism so that you kind of feel like you still have control over your own life? Is that how.

Angie Yu: 35:04

Wait say that again?

Lucas Ng: 35:06

Yeah. Like, like you internalize things that you really have no control over as a want to control them.

Kristy Yee: 35:16

Um, I'm thinking, like being in a situation where I don't have control, but I tell myself that I have control to feel like I have control.

Lucas Ng: 35:25

Yeah.

Angie Yu: 35:25

see. I see. So denial. Oh yeah. I haven't, I haven't been in that situation many, many, many times where I'm in denial. Yeah, actually. So same thing I have, experience with like failing at something like a career after the end of my last relationship where I was going through a really, really rough time. It actually started even before the relationship was ending. My whole journey with depression kind of started when a friend of mine who's from Toronto, took his own life and it just shattered me to my core and it hit me really hard, like harder than anybody. That we know, like, we, we all knew him. It was when I was in China, uh, doing a co-op and like everyone who knew him was obviously devastated, but I really clung onto it. And it wasn't until later in therapy, I realized this because like I related a lot to his condition, and just really suppressing that side of you. And it just hadn't gotten worse and worse and worse. And I was losing control. I work and I just, I kept saying like, I'm in control, I'm in control. But my head was like, basically, like, I was just like, everything I did was just to keep my nose from being above the wall. But I had absolutely, but I was in so much denial and then I just couldn't like, everything just came crashing down. I went into work one day and I just looked like absolute shit. And I walked up to one of the partners who was not one of my direct bosses. I walked up to him and I'm like, do we have coverage for mental health? Just straight up? And he was so caught off guard. He's like, oh, uh, yeah. I was like, okay, cool. And then I just walked away. And then later that day he messaged me. He emailed me before he went home. He's like, Hey, I'm sorry. I didn't react very well to that. Uh, let's have coffee tomorrow morning. He's like, I have a client meeting at 10, but let's, let's go for a chat at like nine. And I was like, oh no, if you have, you know, I was still pushing it. I was like, oh no, don't worry about it. Like if you have a client meeting, it's all good. Obviously again, denial. And then we ended up going for coffee and. As soon as we sat down, I just started crying and that was the day I went on my short-term leave.

Kristy Yee: 37:40

because someone finally gave you permission to feel these

Angie Yu: 37:42

yeah. Someone gave me permission to be like, Hey, you don't have to be productive. Go get better. And then from that day on, I was on like a 17 week short-term disability leave. And yeah, I was on like, same thing, insurance, not EI but like, um, like short-term disability insurance. And like, and it was kind of like, what is the word? I told people that I was going through some mental health struggles, but I never mentioned that I was really underperforming. I was really hiding. I felt braver talking about the mental health side then I felt comfortable about talking about how I had failed at being an employee. I had failed at being just like a functioning person in society, because there was so much shame.

Kristy Yee: 38:30

this idea of equating our value with our productivity, even though we know this concept is incorrect and we don't agree with it, it's still affects us. It. We still feel like we have to be productive members of the society. We have to like do well at work to validate our existence. Really. And if we underperform then hush, hush, like let's not talk about that. It's just, let's talk, let's talk about my mental health instead. Let's talk about how great it is that I am taking time off. And like, let's not talk about that other gross part about how I actually was not performing very well. And. And I feel like in, in your situation, Lukas, it's, it's different, but it's still very much work related. Like a lot of these triggers, these events came from a work-related environment and you were consistently being disappointed and you felt like you were doing really well. And, but circumstances should, it happens. She's just like hit the fan. But you feel like, oh, it was because I sucked.

Angie Yu: 39:36

Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 39:36

was something to do with you when it really didn't have anything to do with you. And I, the control thing is actually something I'm working on through therapy as well. And it's something that I've recently learned that I, I need to have so much control in my life. Like I can't let that go. And if I don't have control, then my anxiety starts spiraling, you know? And I wake up and I feel pangs of anxiety. And a lot of times for me to manage those physical symptoms is mentally knowing that I have control. I'm going to do ABCD so that I prevent X, Y, Z from happening. Because in my mind, I'm like, all these bad things are going to happen. So in order for me to protect myself, I need to have all this control. And so I don't have a good example to give you Lukas about like, when am I in a situation where I didn't have control, but I want to have control, or I tell myself I can control because I just want control all the damn fucking time. And that's something I'm trying to learn to just let go of, you know,

Lucas Ng: 40:45

One of the major questions that I always ask, like anyone who comes on to our show, our podcast is like, how do you deal with the instability first thing, but also the lack of control in our current industry. Um, everyone that, that isn't accurate that as a creative, that as an artist, it is not nine to five. There is no consistent paychecks. How do you deal mentally with that? Cause it, it is incredibly rattling. First of all, like I came from like, like an office background, you know, you get off at like six or seven or so, but you know, if you're on. Uh, it could be like a 6:00 AM call time, which is when you're there, but it could wrap up that say like 11:00 PM. You just don't know. So the, the major thing that I am grappling with is I realize too much control when I have too much control. When it's too confined of, a space, I started rebelling ASAP, you know, I start fighting it. I start just writing my email to my friends and saying, I can't deal with this, my personal beliefs right now. We're not coinciding with that. but right now I am on the opposite end of everything right now, you know, Um, I just have to do a self-tape that I'm not sure when they're going to be filming my acting classes. I don't know when they're going to restart up and this pandemic has put a wrench into every locus of control that I once had before. So just basically another thing that. Slowly trying to realize and grapple within myself is, are you okay with the lack of control? Because if you aren't, you're probably in the wrong business, but I love this business enough that I'm okay with this, with this instability. So it's, it's definitely something with, with what you said. It's like, I do wake up at times with anxiety because I don't know what's going to happen then day, but I try to take that same anxiety and like direct it so that I'm more focused, not on edge, but at least energized for the day then.

Angie Yu: 42:39

I think that's.

Lucas Ng: 42:41

Yeah.

Angie Yu: 42:41

Uh, a big part of that is kind of what we do in our thirties. The twenties is kind of like figuring out who the fuck we are in the thirties is really figuring out what do we want in life. And for me, I'm the opposite. Like I have a very stable, I'm very privileged. Even when I went on my short-term leave. When I went back to work, everyone was very welcoming to have me back. And they were kind of with, on the journey with me. And I'm so lucky to have that. but my personality is that I want to do things that are different. I want to, like I want to be creative and I want to pursue things that are not well paying. But when I was doing my therapy sessions, because I really had this push and pull between my values and like what I want to do, I realized that at the very, very core of my value, the thing that I want the most in the world is my own family. So for you, your passion is that your, you love this industry. So you're willing to, what was the word earlier that you used recalibrate calibrate yourself to this? Right. And I'm like, wow, I really relate to what you're saying, even though I'm the opposite is to calibrate so that I'm more stable and I'm quote, unquote more boring because it will allow me to really have the thing that I want the most in my life. And I feel like that's what our thirties is about. And you know, like you've been through a lot and I feel like I, this is such a cliche, but it's the whole like struggling artist thing. But I think like, even just from talking to you now, like I, I see a difference between this Lukas versus the Lukas. I met like two years ago.

Lucas Ng: 44:22

Oh

Kristy Yee: 44:23

oh do you tell what's the difference,

Angie Yu: 44:25

more peace and more maturity.

Kristy Yee: 44:30

even though he's been through more chaos. I find that actually really nice because, or poetic even because two years ago, Lukas, hasn't started therapy and I'm not allowed here to be like RA right therapy though. Sometimes we are like RA therapy.

Angie Yu: 44:44

Yes.

Kristy Yee: 44:44

But I think like processing all the complexities that have happened in all the chaos that has happened will help you bring to a place of more peace, even though we're still all working on it. Like it's not, there's no finish line to this thing,

Lucas Ng: 44:56

no. And thank you for bringing that point up because one of the major things, the major themes that my therapist always talks about is show compassion to yourself. And it might sound cliche. And at times it does, when I hear it from, from like a, a non welcoming mind, but. one of the major things that she does says on repeat is. Maybe at times you would lack to support you lack the care you'll act the love that you're, that your childhood had, that your former childhood with the understanding that you have now as like a 30 year old in your thirties as an adult, what can you say to that younger self right now? Can you show him that that kind of same, love that attention, that support that you craved, you know, tell that to that little kid within you. And I, at times kinda like break down for that, just because a lot of things that we're lacking, we right now, as, as capable adults can provide for our own self. So tell that to your younger self man, and that will bring at least some resolution enclosure.

Angie Yu: 45:58

Absolutely. The talking to your younger self.

Kristy Yee: 46:00

Our listeners. Can't see, but Angie and I are just like vigorously

Angie Yu: 46:04

Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 46:05

as Lukas is talking.

Angie Yu: 46:07

figuratively nodding, because that is one of the strategies that's very useful. And it's very common for a reason, especially from people from our backgrounds, because our parents did not provide that kind of compassionate, emotional support because it's not in our culture. And it doesn't mean they love us any less. It's just, they don't know better. So for us to be like showing that compassion to ourselves, it's such a visceral experience that yeah, I cry every time too. Therapy is one thing you haven't told your mom about why is that?

Lucas Ng: 46:52

Um, I mean, I can think of reasons why, why I have not, and, and it doesn't come from shame, but it's what I am more concerned about is, is essentially what we just talked about. Like, and again, I could be projecting, but what I predict her follow-up question will be, you know, like, Hey mom, I'm going to therapy. She'll be like, why, why are you doing this? and you know, uh, if I were to say bluntly, it's like, cause I didn't feel supported as a child, you know? And I don't want to do that conversation. But in the same token though, and this also came out of moving out to, I'd go back home periodically two or three times a year, but, and I'm not sure if this is normal for every adult life, but there seems to be every time I come back, I see them getting older. I see them getting greater. Their voice goes a little bit lower. In addition to the time, the distance of time, there is also that kind of like at times emotional distance, because I don't think I can tell them a lot of the stuff that I am going through. And every time my dad asks me, Hey, how are you in Toronto? All I can really wrap her up is a it's going all right. And it comes from a place that I don't want to worry him, but why I haven't told my mom why I'm in therapy. It's just because it is a really big conversation that I know will happen after that. And I am just not ready yet to go into that with her yet, but through time eventually, but not

Angie Yu: 48:29

Especially if they think that and knowing our parents, they, you know, they done so much for us to the best of their ability. They might be like, oh my God, this is all my fault. I did not do a good job raising you.

Lucas Ng: 48:42

you hit that point because I am my father's son. I am my mother's son, all of their great qualities. My dad is the nicest human alive. My mom is the most caring. She will drop everything to, to, to make sure you feel welcomed in and supported, but in the same way as though my dad, because of his niceness may lack, emotional boundaries, other people might have like hurt him to my mom because she tries so hard to do everything for everybody, her inner anxiety, always internalizes a lot of things. And I see that the good and the bad of them into me. And so. I really want to work through these, these, uh, these qualities about myself before I go into that conversation, just because I am my father's son and I am my mother's son to,

Kristy Yee: 49:33

This is your way of showing love to your parents and protecting them. It's not to keep things away from them, but for you to, you know, get to a point where you sort through some of this stuff first again, there's no finish line, but get to a place where you are comfortable enough before you tell them. And in a way we physically see our parents getting older. I see that in my mum every day. And it's, it's scary to see them get older and, and be fragile, you know, like, like we are now, we are now in a place and in a mindset where we are the ones to take care of our parents and we are now the ones to protect them. And this is just another way for you to protect your family right now.

Lucas Ng: 50:23

absolutely. Absolutely. And, and it's kind of breathtaking too. Cause right now I am at the age where my dad had me and two to also realize that, I mean, I might have lived more quote, unquote life than my dad because, you know, he was kind of stable. He had a great job and everything like that. She didn't go through many like mass layoffs and firings. But if I were to have a child right now, would I be perfect? Would I be any better than my dad was knowing what I know now? Of course I will try my best, but in the same token, like what, like what you just said, Kristy, he did his best. And Dan, well, I will also do my best the moment I have a child too, but I will also fail and not be that great support system for my future future child. So just, we're all trying our best right now.

Kristy Yee: 51:12

Yeah, and I don't think there needs to be any blaming

Lucas Ng: 51:16

Hm.

Kristy Yee: 51:16

and we're all human. We're all gonna make mistakes. We're all gonna fail. Whether it's going to be a relationship with your children or with your partner or whatever it is. Cause we cannot be perfect human beings. You cannot be a perfect father, Lukas, as much as you try to be, but you're going to damn well, try to be anyways because that's how we show love as people. Right. But I think what's important is that at the end of the day is we forgive other people for their mistakes. And then we try to learn from that. And we also open up a community where, where we allow people to make mistakes and then get better, which is where normalizing therapy, for example. And that's just one way to do this is normalizing therapy to be like, you know what? I had a fucked up childhood. I needed to sort some shit out I'm not trying to blame you, mom and dad, but like I, I gotta do this, you know, and then that knowledge hopefully continually gets passed down to the next generation. because trauma is not going to end. Right. As long as we create the space to sort out the trauma afterwards, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like that's the change that I would like to see in the future, be in a place where we are okay. To talk about our trauma.

Lucas Ng: 52:30

Yeah. And, and you kind of hit the nail to their Kristy, like the shame and guilt that one might feel. It really does come down to forgiveness of yourself. Like after forgiveness of yourself, then you can try to look at solutions to take the weight off because there is a lot of weight That we are carrying. So it's, it's okay to, to acknowledge the shame, but also work towards bettering yourself for your community for the better of yourself too. Yeah.

Kristy Yee: 52:59

That's just, that's the takeaway, right? It's just, yup.

Lucas Ng: 53:04

I feel

Angie Yu: 53:05

Like, honestly, like I am, I don't want to say astounded. Cause I think that gives too little credit to the Lukas that I met two years ago. But you know, like when I met you, we were like is pre COVID. So we met up, we were all like out having fun drinking and going to eat late pho and like, you know, like that yeah. That's where we were. I was 28 at the time and now I'm 30. And even though that's only two years, it has been a very significant two years. And it's to the sounds of it. Like, it has been a very significant two years for you as well. And like, I don't know, I'm proud in

Lucas Ng: 53:40

Yeah.

Angie Yu: 53:41

even though it's not really my place to be because. Why should I be proud? Like I don't maybe proud is not the maybe respect, just a lot of, I feel a lot of respect for you right now. And it's so difficult, for men of our generation, because there's so much toxic masculinity floating around and it's so difficult, especially for Chinese men to go and see a therapist to really let yourself feel all the feels like that's really difficult. Like, you know, so I'm very, I respect that a lot about you, that you were able to take the step.

Lucas Ng: 54:17

And thank you both of you for opening up this platform though, it's it is astounding. Like I'm listening to your guys's episodes and the topics that you do bring up. Like most recently I was listening to. So the one that we're just, you two are talking and you talking about like your, your suicidal tendencies and, and just feelings. And that is so raw, you know, it's I felt at times like I, I could relate, but also at the same time, it's like, I am. Amazed at your level of openness to really express these cause, you know, because of how you expressed it. I also expressed how back when I had my first fighting. Like I was about to jump in the lake, like we go through these events, but it, it weighs a lot less on us, on us when we can let the weight off a bit. So thank you for opening up that avenue for us to, you know, unpackage it together.

Angie Yu: 55:05

it was our pleasure. Yeah. I can't, can't wait for other people to share it. And I can't wait to read slash watch slash experience your work in the industry.

Lucas Ng: 55:16

oh, thank you. excited. Yeah, I'll be fine.

Kristy Yee: 55:18

we will link all of Lukas's things in the show notes.

Angie Yu: 55:22

Yeah. And check him out. check his podcasts out over at, have we made a, yet with his comedic friend? Comedic has comedian friend, Josh yang.

Lucas Ng: 55:32

Awesome. Yay. Give it up for you both. It's

Angie Yu: 55:35

Thank you. Thank you.

Kristy Yee: 55:37

Oh my goodness. Someone's

Angie Yu: 55:39

and I guess, I guess in the industry, we say like what, that's a wrap in your industry. That's a wrap.

Lucas Ng: 55:45

Uh, We're calling

Angie Yu: 55:47

calling it. Okay.

Lucas Ng: 55:48

Yeah.

Angie Yu: 55:49

Well, I'm calling it. I'm going to stop.