Breastfeeding When Birth Isn't Perfect

When birth doesn’t go as planned…how does it impact breastfeeding?

Or maybe it doesn’t??  

Tune in this week as we talk about what happens if your birth wasn’t what you thought or wanted it to be.

If you are a new listener, we would love to hear from you.  Please consider leaving us a review on itunes or sending us an email with your suggestions and comments to badassbreastfeedingpodcast@gmail.com

WE HAVE TRANSCRIPTS!!  You can also add your email to our list and have episodes sent right to your inbox!

Things we talked about:

Listener review and question  [1:20]

Does birth impact breastfeeding? [4:50]

It’s ok to be disappointed [7:13]

Breastfeeding can be challenging without intervention [12:31]

Oxytocin response [14:00]

Breastfeeding problems [19:10]

Sleepy babies [20:45]

Coordination [24:21]

Planning to breastfeed again after a breastfeeding struggle [28:08] 

*This Episode is sponsored by Ceres Chill and Just N Case

Links to information we discussed or episodes you should check out!

https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com/episode/sleepy-breastfeeding-babies/

https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com/episode/033-birth-trauma/

https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com/episode/cesarean-births-and-breastfeeding/

Set up your consultation with Dianne

https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com/consultations/     

Check out Dianne’s blog here~

https://diannecassidyconsulting.com/milklytheblog/

Don’t Forget!!  Dianne and Abby have started the new parenting podcast!  Check out Revolution Parenting!  

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1755123/8400508

Follow our Podcast~

• https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com

Here is how you can connect with Dianne and Abby~

• Abby Theuring  https://www.thebadassbreastfeeder.com
• Dianne Cassidy http://www.diannecassidyconsulting.com

Music we use~

Music: "Levels of Greatness" from "We Used to Paint Stars in the Sky (2012)" courtesy of Scott Holmes at freemusicarchive.org/music/Scott Holmes

Transcript

dianne (00:00):

Welcome to the badass Breastfeeding podcast. This is Dianne, your lactation consultant,

abby (00:25):

and I'm Abby, the badass breastfeeder. And today's episode is brought to you by a brand new sponsor, just in case nursing pads, just in case is committed to making breastfeeding more comfortable, less stressful, and more sustainable with their reusable nursing pads. And today's episode is also brought to you by Ceres Chill. Uh, never worry about safely storing your breast milk or formula again. Ceres chill was invented by a mom for moms and offers guaranteed convenience with their double walled stainless steel container. Um, and we'll hear more from our sponsors later, but the sponsors make this podcast possible. And, uh, please head to badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com and check out our sponsor page. If you need anything and see if you can give any of them your business. Um, and while you're there, scroll down and enter your email address and you'll get episodes sent straight to your inbox every Monday. And now Dianne has our review of the week.

dianne (01:20):

and it comes well, It comes from two places, I guess, but it comes from Gmail. The one I'm going to read is from our Gmail, but she also put one on iTunes. So I was like, thank you for the double love. That was very nice, but I'm going to read the Gmail one, cause it was a little bit shorter. Hi, I've been listening to your podcast for a few weeks now. My second baby is nine weeks old and I wish I would've had y'all when I had my first baby, you have helped so much. I'm obsessed. Y'all are amazing. My question has to do with freezing breast milk. I pumped one time a day now to store breast milk, to feed my baby. When I return to work, he'll be six months. When I return to work, I've been freezing four ounce bags for the future, but will he ever need more than four ounces in a bottle? Even when he is seven months, eight months and so on. I understand my body makes what he needs and all, but with it being frozen months in advance, how will the milk have what he needs later? Thanks.

abby (02:11):

Oh, good question.

dianne (02:13):

Yeah, and I did. I mean, I answered her briefly, but I do, I did want to put this out there because it is a question that we get a lot and you never need more than four ounces for your baby. Your milk changes to adapt to what your baby is, the growth pattern that they're in and what they're doing at that time and what they need. So it's more concentrated. The milk is more concentrated. You'd never need more volume. They get what they need from what they're getting. So leaving four ounces in a bottle is enough. Even when your baby is 10, 11, 12 months old, it's totally fine. Four ounces is plenty for them. And even when your milk is frozen, it gives them what they need. You know, I mean, of course fresh milk is always the best, but when you freeze your breast milk to give to your baby, while you're at work, that is still the best option for them.

abby (03:04):

That is still like, yeah. A very, very close second best.

dianne (03:07):

Yes. So don't even think about the fact that, well, it doesn't have what they need. Yeah. Yeah. It's perfect. And so many people do it and it's, it's all. It's perfect. So thank you so much.

abby (03:19):

People say bottle-feeding is breastfeeding. You know, you're giving them breast milk. Yeah. That's the best thing.

dianne (03:27):

So thank you so much for sending us the email and for the review, both on iTunes and for sending us an email, telling us how much you love us. We love to hear it.

abby (03:38):

Just send us messages about how much you love us. Thank you. Goodbye.

dianne (03:42):

Now that's all we really need is just to know that we're loved and you know, whatever.

abby (03:46):

everybody needs that in life, right?

dianne (03:48):

Yeah. That's true. They do. But we really love to hear that you're, you know, that you're getting on with your breastfeeding.

abby (03:57):

and your questions. I think this is cool. I liked the questions in the beginning.

dianne (04:00):

Yeah. Cool. So shoot us a message. End us an email, put it on iTunes, whatever works for you. We get them all.

abby (04:08):

And the best though, if you could do iTunes, that'd be cool.

dianne (04:11):

Yeah, it is. But if you don't have it, don't worry. And that's what I got. And today we got a really heavy topic.

abby (04:19):

Yeah. So what happens? How does breastfeeding, how is breastfeeding impacted when your birth doesn't go either the way you wanted it to go or there's like emergency interventions or, you know, unexpected things. How does that impact breastfeeding.

dianne (04:39):

or does it right? Does it impact it at all?

abby (04:43):

Um, and I, uh, well, what do you see?

dianne (04:50):

I see a lot of the time I do see it impact breastfeeding. I mean, I see a lot of things, right? So I see things going in all different directions, but often, you know, if birth does not go as planned and that could be, I mean, that could be anything,

abby (05:07):

could be a million different things that can be no, cause we'd say, well, what's a perfect birth. I don't even know. I mean, I guess we would say like in a textbook we would say, you know, labor that comes on by itself at, you know, past 38 weeks and you know, things just kind of go quote unquote smoothly. And there's no medical interventions. And you know, I mean, it's hard to say exactly what perfect is because even when it is like, so-called perfect or it just goes, you know what? Medical people might call smoothly if it wasn't what you expected. And is it ever, especially if it's your first birth? Oh my God. I don't think it matters how it goes. Like that's going to be just emotionally and psychologically. It's, it's a big thing. And it's going to impact everything, including breastfeeding.

dianne (06:08):

I think, you know, some people you've got two kinds of people when it comes down to this, you have some people who go into birth with kind of that whole while I feel like I'm prepared, but I'm not going to have any expectations. And what happens, happens.

abby (06:25):

Wow. Who's that?

dianne (06:27):

You have people that are, you know, plan, it, prepare for it, hire a doula, have all the, you know, do all the classes, have a, have a birth plan and really have, you know, know what they want for their birth. And neither way is wrong. Like there is no wrong there. Um, but what I want people to really know is a really understand that regardless of what happens in your eyes. Like if it, like Abby was saying, like, if it feels like it wasn't the perfect birth for you, regardless of what any medical professional will say, that's okay. Like it's okay for you to feel like that. And what we hear a lot is, oh, but the baby's fine. What's the problem. And that's not an okay response.

abby (07:11):

At least you had a healthy baby, please.

dianne (07:13):

You have a healthy baby. Well, duh of course, you know, like that's what everybody wants. Yes. Everybody wants a healthy baby obviously. And everybody wants a healthy parent obviously, but it's okay to be disappointed if you had a C-section and didn't plan for that, it's okay to be disappointed if you were induced and you didn't want to be induced, you know, that's okay. You can be. And that's just like two very small examples, but you can be disappointed in that. And you can mourn that and you can, you know, wish that it had gone differently. That's okay. Don't feel like you need to be making excuses just because you came out of it, healthy, so to speak.

abby (07:56):

But this is real grief and loss. You know, this is you're going to, you are allowed to grieve the loss of the birth that you wanted to have. And like it's absolutely nonsense that anybody would say anything different.

dianne (08:11):

Yeah. That drives me crazy.

abby (08:12):

And like some of it, I mean a lot of births I would say most births are absolute chaos. Especially if you're in a hospital, it's at least mine was. So if mine was it means everybody's was, I am the litmus test for all experiences. I mean, you know, you go into, you're going into a place where they have policies and protocols and you know, the way things are supposed to go and you can, you know, you, you can plan and you can all of that. But when it comes down to it, they have the final say of what's going to go down and you can end up with, I went into the hospital and I didn't want an epidural. I didn't have a doula. I didn't have anything like that. I didn't have anything except for the fear of this needle that they refuse to show us. She was like, I'm not going to show you the needle. It's too scary. So I'm like, well, if they can't even show us the needle, I'm not going to do that. So I just said, no, no, no. And then I was induced twice because the first time didn't work. So, you know, it comes on, labor comes on and I'm just like, what is happening? What's going on? And like, they're coming in and out like, oh, I don't know what they're saying. And you know, kind of like, you know, you can, you know, they really wanted me to have an epidural because that's usually what people do. And it's much easier for people in the hospital. If you are just doing what most people do, it helps them get through there. It helps them get through your birth. And so I ended up having the epidural and this, I remember this nurse came in and he goes, and I should be, you know, I should be like, well, what are the nicest things to say? But I was just like, he comes in and he goes, I know that you really wanted to do this without an epidural. And you know, but it's okay, you know, to get it, but I know that you didn't want to. And I know, and he was like really validating, like, but I was also like, now I'm in hard labor. I'm like, where's the guy, where's the guy with that big, scary needle. The big scary needle is what I want jabbed into my spine right now, please. And thank you, please go get him. Um, and then, you know, so then there was an episiotomy and then they're yelling at me to push and tell me I'm pushing wrong. And then I lost all this blood. And like, you know, it's like, it was terrible. It was terrible. And then she's like, do you want to try to breastfeed? And I'm like, okay. Like, that was the last thing I wanted to do. Right. Then when Jack was born, when he came out, I looked down at him and I went, oh my God, I totally forgot what we were doing here. I completely for, it was so awful. I completely forgot I was there to have a baby. I was like, oh yeah. Oh, all right, there he is. And then you're immediately there immediately latching him on. And I'm just like, man, I just want to go into a closet and shut the door.

dianne (11:02):

Loss of control is unbelievable. And very unexpected, I think for, yeah, for everybody, like you don't know what to expect when you're going in there. Right. No concept of what to expect.

abby (11:14):

No. And they tell you all these things that you don't understand and they're just, you know, before hand and they tell you, they just, it doesn't, it's such a, it's such a, not, it's not a great place to have a baby. Like, honestly, it's not, you know, of course people do it all the time and whatever, that's how our culture is right now. But like, it's just not like the coziest place to have a baby. And then you have to be there around all of these people. That was the other thing is like the baby, like Jack was like, Jack, I, he wasn't, he w he was not coming out. That's when they decided have, well, after a long time of me pushing and him not moving is when they decided to do an episiotomy. But in the meantime, they had brought in all of the residents, they brought in like 10 people to stand at my vagina and watch. Yeah. Because it was like an unusual situation. So they're like, yeah, come on here. And we're going to watch this. What's like, what an absolute, of course I wasn't, I wasn't even in the room. I was like on planet nine, whatever. I, I, I, you know, I was not there to be like embarrassed, but now I'm just like, what an absolute violation of my privacy.

dianne (12:28):

Oh yeah. Yeah. I had that happen too.

abby (12:29):

Yeah, that's insane.

dianne (12:31):

Yeah. I know it really. Then you said like, then when you go to breastfeed and breastfeeding can be very challenging without all the intervention and without all the trauma, right. It can be challenging. And I've seen it kind of go both ways where it was really, it can be a huge struggle and we'll, you know, kind of talk about a couple of those struggles, but I've also seen some parents be like, okay, birth, didn't go the way I wanted it to, I want this to go well, I will do whatever it takes. Yeah. And they really it's very like validating to them. It's very healing for them, the power and control and the empowerment that you get from breastfeeding helps to kind of overshadow some of that disappointment from a, from a difficult birth. And then sometimes it's just so hard because the babies are, I mean, the birth was hard for you. How was it for the baby? It's really hard.

abby (13:28):

Exactly. Yeah. So you might straight up not want to, like, you might straight up when that baby is born, you might feel like tired. And like, you don't want to, you might feel like you're not immediately. Like, I imagine like, I'd have a baby and I would like cry with joy. I looked at him with fucking dead face. I was on every drug imaginable and I was just like, oh, Like, I wasn't like, ohhhh!! My baby's here!

dianne (14:00):

Nope. I wasn't either. And then I learned later and I've always wondered if this was what it was that, you know, Pitocin blocks your natural oxytocin response. So what, and actually oxytocin that like surges with the birth of your baby. And that is like your love, your bonding, your connectedness, all of that. That's supposed to happen when that baby is born and Pitocin can block your natural oxytocin response. So was were we just kind of like that dead face because of the medical intervention, as far as like the, the chemicals now surging through your body are interfering with what really should be happening.

abby (14:43):

Yeah. Probably.

dianne (14:45):

And now bonding is a little bit more difficult. Yeah. It takes a little longer.

abby (14:49):

I mean, the drugs wear off and everything is fine. And also, I want to say, if anybody's pregnant, listening, people have positive and empowering births in hospitals all the time. Like this doesn't mean that your birth is going to be like bad or something. You know, it's going to be what it is. And however it is, you get to have whatever feelings you want to have about it.

dianne (15:08):

But I think if you are pregnant, one of the great things about listening right now is just knowing and having the education behind, okay. If my baby isn't breastfeeding that well from the start, let's look at why that could be happening. It's not because they don't want to, it's not because they can't so to speak and they never will. It might just be the intervention from your birth that they just need to get past. And then, and then it's okay. Like you just need to work with that, but going into it thinking, okay, the baby's just going to breastfeed, regardless of what happens, I think is, you know, because everybody says breastfeeding, so natural breastfeeding. So, you know, don't worry about it. It's just going to happen. And it doesn't happen like that. Especially with a complicated delivery, it might not happen like that.

abby (16:01):

so what do we see happening?

dianne (16:03):

So maybe we should do our ads first, and then we can talk about what's happening. Like, all right. Like this is like a perfect break spot for that I think.

abby (16:10):

It is. Transition. We will be right back With our transition into our next part of this conversation,

dianne (16:17):

because we planned that didn't we,

abby (16:18):

we did. Today's episode is brought to you by Just N Case nursing pads. Struggles with nursing pads that scrunch up in your bras, slip out of place and leak through your top, add unnecessary stress. Just N Case is committed to making breastfeeding more comfortable, less stressful, and more sustainable for new parents. Just N Case set out to redesign nursing pads from the inside out, incorporating their patented confitex textile technology, unlike other reusable nursing pads, award-winning just n case pads are super absorbent and leak-proof so they won't let you down when you let down, plus because they don't contain a layer of pu plastic they're more eco-friendly and can be tossed in the dryer with the rest of your wash. Essential for busy new parents, just n case also has a range of award-winning super absorbent reusable underwear. Perfect For postpartum bleeds, little wee leaks, or the eventual return of your period. They've got you covered. Badass breastfeeders can head to justncasedot com. That's just J U S T N, case C a S e.com and use code badass 15 for 15% off your purchase. And today's episode is also brought to you by Ceres chill. Never worry about safely storing your breast milk or formula again. Ceres chill was invented by a mom for moms and offers guaranteed convenience with their double-walled stainless steel container. A little bit of warm water, a little bit of water and ice is all you need to keep your breast milk or formula safe for 20 hours. No more lugging around chunky coolers and dozens of containers. You can pump and double pump all day into one sleek container. The chillers are dishwasher, safe, airport friendly, and last a lifetime. Use it for wine coffee, or any of your favorite beverages or even food when you're done breast or bottle feeding. Head over to cereschill.com that's C E R E S chill.com or check them out @cereschill on Instagram for more details and use code badass breastfeeders 25 for 25% off of your purchase and all of today's sponsors and the promo codes can be found at badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com in our show notes. Under this episode, also in our show notes will be further information about things we talked about in this episode and at badass breastfeedingpodcast.com, you will find our other breastfeeding episodes, our resources and information about scheduling your very own one-on-one online lactation consultation with Dianne.

dianne (19:05):

Yeah.

abby (19:07):

Yeah. What are some problems that people might have?

dianne (19:10):

So probably one of the first and foremost things that we see is that the babies are super sleepy.

abby (19:17):

Oh yeah.

dianne (19:18):

So, and that is, I mean, they're going to be sleeping anyway. Don't I don't want to make it sound like, oh, you know, you have this like perfect delivery. Your baby is going to be like wide awake. Like that's not the case, but if there is a medic, a lot of medication involved, you know, like if it's epidural, if it's pain medication, um, sometimes if there's like blood pressure issues, they might have you on magnesium, magnesium, drip, like those things that your baby might be very, very sleepy and more so than if there was no medications involved, like, there's definitely a difference. Like I can at this point of my career, like I can usually tell the difference with a baby that is, did not have a medicated delivery and a baby that did, because you can just, they're just a little bit more alert. They're more alert for the feedings. Um, and sometimes babies that where there's medication involved, they're just really a lot sleepier and that can feel overwhelming and discouraging when you're trying to learn how to breastfeed. And the baby just goes to sleep, you know? And I see that all the time and moms will be like, well, they just want to sleep. Like, well, if I was next to my favorite person snuggled up, that's probably what I would do too, is go to sleep, you know, and was so tired.

abby (20:38):

And they're just, you just got here. How exhausting, what a trip. I mean, it's only a few inches, but my God, it's the biggest trip you'll ever take in your life.

dianne (20:45):

Yeah. So it is hard, you know, you have to just keep stimulating them, stimulating them, stimulating them. And it doesn't hurt to see a lactation consultant to kind of get that validation that this is normal and they'll get past it. Your baby is not always going to be this sleepy, but the medications do impact them. Um, if you had a C-section delivery and you're still on pain medications on day three or day four, that does make the babies a little bit sleepy as well. I mean, think about what it does to you, you know, I mean, it, it makes you sleepy. Exactly. So that is probably one of the most common things that we see is that sleepiness and how that can really impact babies and breastfeeding. And there are some babies where I'll be sitting there with the parent and like really have to stimulate the baby a lot, to get a good feeding into them. So that is not, I don't want anybody to think that there's something wrong with their baby, that their baby's abnormal, that you have to constantly be poking them and prodding them to get them to feed. And that is not uncommon. They're just really sleepy and you have to help them. You just, you have to help them along. They don't know what they're doing, you know?

abby (21:51):

No, I think that's the thing too, is that we think, well, breastfeeding is natural, but like, they don't know how to do it. It might be natural, but they don't know you have to help them.

dianne (22:02):

And when you take the natural out of the birth, that makes it very different too,

abby (22:07):

you know, and just have to help them more.

dianne (22:09):

Right. And, you know, say, oh yeah, breastfeeding is so natural, but birth isn't natural anymore. You know? I mean, it just, it is not common to have a natural birth. I have a, um, a friend colleague, I helped her with her kids. And then we ended up like staying friends and her second baby was a, you know, what her first birth was, you know, a traumatic. And then the second birth, she hired her doula. She had a unmedicated delivery. And I remember her telling me that when she was in the hospital, they came in, you know, the next day to check and make sure everything was okay or whatever. And the anesthesiologist came in and went to look for the needle in her back. And she was like, I didn't even have an epidural. Like, that is how common it is though. They don't expect you to not have one.

abby (23:00):

Right. You know, especially in the hospital.

dianne (23:03):

Yeah. It's like 80 to 90% of births have epidurals. Very, very, very common. And all these parents breastfeed too. So it's not like your baby's not going to breastfeed because they will, it might just take a little bit more effort.

abby (23:19):

thats one of the things too. It's like, well, you had a C-section so you can't breastfeed and that's not the case.

dianne (23:24):

Totally not true. Yeah. I mean, what, 30% of people have a C-section and all, I mean, right. Those babies breastfeed. I had a C-section I breastfed. Two. So it's, you know, you can do it. You absolutely can do it. But sometimes those first few days in that first week can definitely be a challenge.

abby (23:46):

Yeah. And I had with my Jack was that terrible birth. And I had Exley at home in, uh, in, in the most healing and empowering birth ever. And I still, you know, I still had to help him breastfeed. Yeah. He's a baby. He just got here. He's not like, I mean like breastfeeding and breathing and swallowing. Like he like those three things. Those are the only things that he can do. And like doing them all together at the same time is like a big deal to try to learn. Yeah. You just have to help them. They don't like there's no, they don't just like automatically know.

dianne (24:21):

And when there's medication involved that makes it even more difficult sometimes for that coordination, you know, I see lots of babies who are struggling to get their stuck, coordinated. They might be a little bit disorganized. Maybe they, you know, they can't figure out how to suck swallow and breathe and get all of that stuff coordinated together. It might take them a couple extra days and they get it after, you know, but sometimes they need a little help in the beginning and that's the kind of stuff we see sometimes with, you know, deliveries that are a little bit more involved. Um, if you have something like, you know, if they got stuck, like Jack got stuck, it sounds like, um, if they're not in a great, like head down position, they get stuck. If they need, you know, like forceps or vacuum, like that kind of thing can absolutely impact how you position your baby, because they might have some bruising. They might have some, some discomfort. Normal. That is normal. That is a normal side effect to what you're going through. And we just need to kind of work it through and help you and your baby. Um, sometimes it's not anything with the baby. Sometimes it's, it's the parent, you know, especially if you have like how you had the episiotomy or if there's a vacuum delivery, or if there was an extensive tear getting into a position where you're comfortable to breastfeed can be really, really challenging. Yeah. And I had a mom actually that, um, she just had her second baby, and this is actually, this is a really, this is really interesting because just had her second baby. Um, I saw her this week with her second baby. Her first baby was six years ago and she had a sprain tailbone after her first baby. And I remember that very, very clearly like sh sprained tailbone. She could not get into any kind of comfortable position to try to breastfeed.

abby (26:15):

What does that mean? And I guess, I don't know what a sprain means, whatever it was injured. Oh my God.

dianne (26:19):

Yes. So she couldn't, I mean, it was worse than a bruise, but not as bad as a break. So it was, you know, bruised tailbone in and of itself is bad enough. Um, but it was, and it was so like she had to do it took months and months and months for her to be in a place where she was comfortable with being able to breastfeed him in any kind of position. And she like, that's all really, she keeps kind of going back to, you know, I saw her this week and she was just like, remember with my first baby, remember how bad that was. Like, she's like, I'm so glad that it didn't happen. Like it is so first and foremost in her, in her brain right now, and this birth went much smoother, but she is still living that, that memory of how difficult that was for her.

abby (27:11):

Totally. That was the biggest barrier with my second birth was remembering my first birth. I was terrified. People like weren't you scared to have a birth at home? I'm like, I was scared to death to go to a hospital again.

dianne (27:23):

That's usually what makes people have a birth at home.

abby (27:25):

I did not, I was so scared of that. I was scared of absolutely everything and hired a doula, anybody who's in this position, I hired a doula early on in my pregnancy. And we, like, she came over once every few weeks up until I gave birth and we'd worked, worked through it. You know, she had me talking about, you know, what's the worst case scenario. What can we, you know, we just like did basically like therapy and like worked through that trauma. And, um, thank God we did because it was so helpful.

dianne (27:58):

And like on the other end of it, I have parents that will contact me when they're pregnant for the same reason that breastfeeding did not go well last time.

abby (28:08):

Yes. Yes. I get a lot of messages like that. Yeah. Last time it was terrible. You know, last time this happened last time that happened, you know, what can I do this time? Is that going to happen again? People are so worried.

dianne (28:20):

And it is. I mean, I even remember when I was pregnant with my twins thinking like, what do I do if they don't latch? What happens? I don't, I don't know, like how do, how am I going to, how am I going to deal with that? Like what, what's my plan going to be? You know? And, and it was twins. So it was really like, oh my God, like, what's gonna, my biggest focus was I didn't want to pay for formula for two babies, but that was pretty much my driving force, but it was, it's a very scary thought of like, what, what do I do now? I'm coming into this again. How do I prevent it from happening? And it can be just such a traumatic memory the first time around. And I always tell parents when I get those calls, I always say to them, I am so glad you want to try again, because that would be enough for people to say, I don't want to do this again. I can't go through it again. And I'm always so, so, so proud of those parents that are just like, I want to try again. I want to be successful with my baby. I really want a good breastfeeding relationship with them. How do I make that happen? And it is just really what it comes down to, especially when you have, you know, births that don't go the way you want, what it comes down to is really just kind of like trying to take a step back and going, okay, it's going to be fine. I have things in place and we can figure out how to make this work. You know, you really to have your support people with you, who they are, it is so important to have your village.

abby (29:47):

It really is. It's a, it speaks so much to the reproductive drive that is in us because if there wasn't there, people would never have more than one child. Oh my God, never, you would never do that. There's no one who would ever revisit something like that twice. If there wasn't some sort of, you know, drive or something that you can't, that you don't have control over. It's just interesting. And so also know for yourself that that's in you, you know that this is in you, that this is, this is what's driving you forward and that you can, you can figure it out. You can work through any problem that happens. And that comes up. You can work through anything. There's nothing, nothing that can happen that you can't work through.

dianne (30:35):

Yeah. like yesterday I was having breakfast with my sisters and I don't even remember what we were talking about. And one of my sisters said, I don't care if you've had kids. Like, you can do anything. Like nothing is in your way.

abby (30:51):

And I'm not even saying, yeah, like beyond just parenting and birthing, like in your life. Absolutely. You can't work through. And if you've had kids that you can't deal with,

dianne (31:02):

sometimes I think that adds a level of like, I think it does. Yeah. It just adds a different level of like, I don't even know what the word is. I'm looking for. Like, just being able to cope with stuff.

abby (31:14):

It's nothing that can be replicated in any other area of life. You know, that it is life is you're giving life. There's nothing that can, there's nothing. That's like it, you know, like this other experience is sort of like giving birth or this is no, there's nothing like that. There's nothing that somebody who hasn't done it can't can't even comprehend it. There's no, there's no, your brain can't go there if you've never done it. So anyway, we're so amazing all of us. So just remember that when you're trying to get through things.

dianne (31:45):

and the takeaway message is, you know, if you're struggling in the beginning to latch your baby, if your baby's not latching, well, if they're not feeding well, if you're really struggling to kind of get to your, your ideal breastfeeding relationship, don't give it up. Don't give up, you know, like, because babies can still recover and do this. And usually what I tell parents is that I don't really see babies that don't ever breastfeed, you know, like babies, that's what they're supposed to. Like, they're just, they breastfeed, you know, like, it's just,

abby (32:22):

they want to figure it out even more than you do. They just need to be given like the right, you know, just the right opportunity, the right intervention and the right. Yeah.

dianne (32:29):

And it's, it's very instinctive for them. What I see more is parents that are like, I can't do this anymore. It's too hard. I don't know what's happening. I'm too anxious over feedings. I'm just going to stop and give bottles. And that's usually what comes before the baby gives in.

abby (32:44):

you know, like it's so, okay. I mean, the, we have an episode coming up, right. Um, when you don't reach your goals, when you don't reach your breastfeeding goals, which is going to come out in a few weeks. Um, but like, you know, that happens too. Yeah, it does. Absolutely does. At some point you would just have a point where you are like, I don't want to do this anymore. I can't. I don't want to.

dianne (33:04):

Yeah. Sometimes your own, like for your own mental capacity, right. You have to do what you need to do. And that's okay too. That is okay. But,

abby (33:17):

but also know that that's a decision that you're making for yourself and it's okay to make that your baby's not making that decision. If you want to continue to, you know, address the problems that you can and you will, and your baby will.

dianne (33:33):

Absolutely. But you can do, like Abby was saying, you can do anything. You can do all of it. You can do any of it. You get through it. It might feel like when you're in it, this is freaking the worst thing ever,

abby (33:44):

but well, yeah. And especially all those interventions and you're, you know, you're dealing with all of that. There might be people around you being like, well, you know, it just doesn't work that well, it just doesn't work out. It just doesn't work out. If you have a C-section, it just doesn't work out. If you, this, this is, it's not true. Yeah. Be okay with like mourning the grief and loss of that birth plan. That didn't go the way you want it to go. And then don't tell anybody, don't let anybody tell you that you can't make what you want to make happen now. You can do it.

dianne (34:21):

We'll be your cheerleaders.

New Speaker (34:24):

Yes. But yeah. So that's it. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Bye. Bye. [inaudible].