Ep 04: Cortney Harding, Founder & CEO of Friends With Holograms: Changing the World Through Virtual & Augmented Reality for Enterprise Business

Description:
Cortney is the Founder and CEO of a transformational VR/AR agency focused on creating innovative, powerful, and effective experiences for training for clients that include Walmart, Verizon, Accenture, Coca-Cola, and the US Air Force. She is a global thought leader, published author, and speaker on emerging technology and the role of virtual and augmented reality.

Find Cortney Harding Online:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cortneyharding
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cortneyharding/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cortneyharding/

Find Friends With Holograms Online:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HologramFriend
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/friendswithholograms/ 
Website: https://www.friendswithholograms.com/

Referenced:
Accenture AVEnueS – Virtual Reality Helps Child Welfare Caseworkers See More
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=60&v=_uArpsDXkvw&feature=emb_title

We Get Real AF Podcast Credits:
Producers & Hosts: Vanessa Alava & Sue Robinson

Vanessa Alava
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessahalava/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vanessahalava
Twitter: https://twitter.com/vanessahalava

Sue Robinson
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sue-robinson-29025623/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/memyselfandfinds/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/sociallysue_

Audio Producer/Editor: Sam Mclean
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mcleansounds/
Website: www.inphase.biz

Audio Music Track Title: Beatles Unite
Artist: Rachel K. Collier
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiHnYgtOn8u9YovYplMeXcw
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachelkcollier/
Website: https://www.rachelkcollier.com

Intro Voice-Over Artist: Veronica Horta
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veronicahorta/

Cover Artwork Photo Credit: Elice Moore

We Get Real AF Online
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wegetrealaf/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/wegetrealaf
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wegetrealaf/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/wegetrealaf
Website: https://wegetrealaf.com

Transcript

Vanessa Alava 

Welcome to the we get real AF podcast. Joining us today is Cortney Harding, CEO of friends with holograms. Cortney, welcome to the show.

Cortney Harding

Oh, great. Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Sue Robinson

Excited to have you.

Vanessa Alava

Likewise. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Cortney Harding 

Oh, wow. So I have done a lot of different things. But primarily right now I make virtual reality and augmented reality. A lot of what I do has a focus on social change and social good. And I really try to focus on solving client problems and making VR that is really impactful and really moves the needle and I also spent a lot of time just like evangelizing about the technology because it is still so new. So I do spend a lot of time just like people on headsets for the first time showing them things Look at how VR works. So yeah, it's like all VR all the time over here. 

Vanessa Alava 

That's awesome. You know, Sue and I, as you know, work for a content development company, it’s a media production company that is a Content Developer for VR and AR experiences. And we always talk about how it never gets old to see somebody in a headset for the first time.

Cortney Harding

No, it's really fun and exciting. And I mean, I've done things like, you know, I showed everyone in my family a piece that I'd done, it sparks really huge debate, which was really exciting. I've put people of all ages I mean, I've put like kids in VR, I've put friends in VR, I've put strangers in VR and it's it's really amazing to see the reactions right to see people get so into the piece that I'm showing them. And I had an experience a couple months ago where I was getting my hair colored and cut. And I was talking to my the guy who does my hair and I happen to have my VR headset in my purse. And he was just he and I were just chatting about VR. I was like, Oh, I can show you something. Because you know, the hair dyes gonna sit on my hair. He was like, Sure, I'll take a look. And I thought he would do like five minutes of the piece. Just check it out. And he did the whole piece. And he got super into it. And I was actually kind of worried. I was like, Oh my God, because he's just like, so immersed in this world. But it's a piece on child welfare workers. And he's of course, like a cool downtown Manhattan hairdresser. He's never been in that world. But he even got out of the piece. And he was like, well, I made this decision because, you know, the mom said this, but I felt like her boyfriend was maybe a better parent. So I kind of wanted to leave a house but I had such and such and like really got into an analyze and took very seriously This training piece that he had no practical use for. And that's the type of stuff that gets me really excited like people cry doing that piece and doing other pieces. And I'm just like, so that sounds crazy. But that emotional reaction to me is really what moves the needle a lot of the time. 

Sue Robinson 

We know the piece you're talking about Cortney, it's the Accenture Peace Corps training social workers. And I agree it is so impactful. We've both seen it. Do you feel like VR is best suited to skills training and, you know, human inner relations training like the Accenture piece? I mean, a lot of times we hear about it in relation to hard skills, training and learning how to operate equipment and machineries but for creating empathy, is that really the true sweet spot for the technology? 

Cortney Harding 

I think it's good for a lot of things. I mean, certainly for sort of empathy training, communication, training, relational training, I think it does very well for that. I also think that Practical Training especially if you're training something that is potentially dangerous or difficult, or something that's not easy to train on is a great use case. So I've seen a lot of use cases around here's how you operate heavy machinery safely right? Like I don't want someone who's never operated a piece of heavy machinery all of a sudden just getting in there and be like, okay, I'll figure this out. Right like you know, I think there's so many different use cases and training and then external training all the training is my my primary focus that I think it's hard to say like VR is is only good for one thing I think it's good for a lot of different things. I think the the core for me is always what is the problem that it's solving? is it doing it in a way that is, you know, fairly realistic, because that if it's realistic, it's going to imprint imprint itself on your brain and you're going to have this like muscle memory from from having done it. isn't well done. So is it like well designed? Is it designed intuitively does it look Good, you know, is it you don't want things that are cartoonish unless that's sort of your whole point because that's gonna destroy like the realism. You don't want things that are unrealistic interactions. So, if you're trying to decide, you know, should I ask this person A, B or C, you want to actually ask that person you don't want to like use a controller to select a question because that's not intuitive. And that's not how we communicate. Um, so yeah, I feel like there's there's no like one sort of vertical that it's best suited for. Which is really exciting because that opens up a lot of different things to to try and to learn.

Vanessa Alava 

We've talked about Sue and I, all the time about how this year we feel is the year for people to adopt if they haven't already. And you know, we were always educating our clients that VR and AR had been such a entertaining entertainment and gaming solution for so long that it is changing perceptions and teach them exactly what you just said that there are so many use cases, and it can really be used across the board.

Cortney Harding 

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Um, I feel like, this is a mistake I made early on that I've sort of acknowledged and corrected, and partially is just a function of there not being a ton of use cases when I started in 2016/2017. So I would go into companies and say, Look at this really cool thing called, you know, under the water where you could, you know, be underwater and, uh, what was it like a whale swam over your head, I think it was called the, it wasn't is a tremendous piece. And it's well done, and it's really compelling. But it's hard for somebody who's like thinking about training to see that piece and kind of apply it to training VR in the space. Oh, yeah. What a cool, fun thing to have a party for games. And so really, I try very hard. To show people stuff that is sort of contextually appropriate. Because Yeah, people if if the first thing they see in VR is like a game, then they're going to get stuck in the mind space like, Oh, it's for gaming, right and not see the applications in training or marketing or anything like that.

Sue Robinson 

Right? I think that's a difficult thing, sometimes for people to break their image in their head of what VR really is.

Vanessa Alava 

no, no, I agree completely. And we run into this with even traditional videos sometimes where if people don't see exactly what they would need in their head, they can't get it. They're like, Oh, well, these people can accomplish so much, like so much creatively, look at what they've done, but they can't say Oh, these people can shift gears to create exactly what I need. So I we always find it very, very interesting, but it is client education and showing things that are somewhat, you know, analogous to what they create or what they do in order for to relate and get it. Yeah.

Sue Robinson 

Are there things that you find clients say I want to use VR for x? And you're like, no, that's a terrible idea. Are there certain things that come up regularly?

Cortney Harding 

regularly? Oh, oh, I don't want to like call anyone out. So I like to start with the problem statement with all my clients. So, you know, with like the Accenture piece, for example, to go back to that. You know, they came to us and they said, How do we stop? How do we decrease turnover among caseworkers, because it's really high? How do we standardize training because caseworkers now train on the job and they partner with more senior caseworkers and the problem with that is a turnover is so high that you don't have a lot of senior caseworkers around and be some senior caseworkers are amazing. Some senior caseworkers are just kind of okay. And it's kind of the luck of the draw who you get, right. So if you get a senior caseworker who's just kind of okay, you as a junior caseworker will be set back, right, and the family's work will be set back and all of this. So the problem they gave us was like kind of a high level problem. And they wanted to use VR to do it. And they allowed us to kind of iterate from there and come up with a piece that we built. So, you know, I think when clients have too narrow focus, that's when things get tricky. If client comes to me and says, I want to teach somebody to do XYZ and VR, generally, there's a way to do it that's compelling and interesting. Sometimes you don't need it, like there are plenty of things that could be videos, right? So if you are talking about a very simple skill, how do you put tab A into slot B? That doesn't really need to be VR, right? But anything, that's more Sort of like a bigger problem around communication or empathy or bias or anything like that. If you just kind of come up with this broad idea of like, here's what we need to solve, we can more likely than not come up with a way to solve it in VR in a way. That's, that's pretty interesting. 

Sue Robinson 

What about in the era of the metoo movement, and more, more and more coming to light about sexual harassment. Do you see VR as being a valuable tool for training for that kind of awareness in the workplace?

Cortney Harding 

Oh, absolutely. So we have a project we're doing right now. That is about reading body language. So, you know, I've been through a lot of sexual harassment trainings in my life. Most of them are terrible. And the issue with the way that a lot of them are deployed is that they are like online learning courses. are maybe their classes, but generally it's like, you watch some videos, you take some quizzes, and they're not interactive and because of the way that they're presented, the scenarios have to be really over the top. Right. So, you're not going to see in the real world as many scenarios where you know, somebody, it's like somebody does a Harvey Weinstein type thing, right? Like, that's, thankfully, pretty rare. What you see a lot more as somebody is out with a male colleague, the male colleague starts sort of, you know, maybe hitting on them a little bit or saying things are slightly inappropriate and and they feel like trapped and uncomfortable. And one thing that we can teach men to do is read women's body language, so that they know okay, I'm making this person uncomfortable, and I need to stop and change the subject. And that's something you can really only do in VR because immersion in the proximity, so basically, the idea is, you put on the headset. He goes through the experience, you start chatting with your colleague You, ideally you start noticing them getting more and more uncomfortable, you know, they're kind of like down, they're kind of back there sort of speaking on surely. And then in sort of the correct way to go through it, you sort of noticed that. And then you switch topics, you start talking about baseball or something, the weather something neutral, because you recognize that discomfort and you backpedal, and it's fine. So that's kind of what we're really interested in. We're also really interested in and building something about helping women stand up for themselves in situations where they're marginalized, or they're in a meeting and somebody taking credit for their idea, which I think happens a lot. And then yeah, just helping people realize, you know, helping people feel like they're actually in that situation. And I think VR Well, I disagree with the idea that VR can make you feel like you're someone else. Like I don't think putting on a VR headset all of a sudden will make me like a different person than I am that just won't work. What I do think it is very possible in VR, it's not possible in other mediums is meeting people where they are, and making them feel uncomfortable or feel empathy or feel something on their level, if that makes sense? 

Vanessa Alava

Absolutely

Sue Robinson

Yeah

Vanessa Alava 

I think it's a nice segue into this next topic of VR is only as useful as it is immersive. And we kind of started talking about it earlier a little bit. But something that you and your company do very well is the storytelling aspect and making it feel as real and as organic as possible. Can you explain why the quality of immersive experiences are so crucial?

Cortney Harding 

Oh my gosh. So a huge challenge with VR is because people have seen so little of it. First impressions really matter. So I've talked to so many people who had a bad first impression on VR, and it has really colored the way that they think about it. So you know, I watch a YouTube video that was poorly shot. That doesn't make me think, oh, all videos are terrible close down YouTube. But for some reason, I guess because VR is really new and it's still sort of edge case technology. And for some reason people have very strong opinions about it. Um, you know, it's deemed, it's really bad when you get somewhat of a negative first experience in VR. So we always try to make it very cinematic. And you know, really high quality, we are very specific about, you know, camera heights, camera angles, making sure that it's very smooth and it's well produced and, you know, making it really good quality, because I think there's a lot of people trying to make VR who don't understand the basics of it. And I 100% get behind people experimenting. That's how I learned that's how people learn. That's how you should learn, like, go get a two 360 camera and shoot some stuff. But that's very different than actually, you know, showing it to other people and having it done. A final product. So I think that yeah, I think the stakes are just still really high. And it It worries me when people think they can kind of like just jump in and make VR that's that's something that I always get a little concerned about. When someone's like, Oh, yeah, I did video I can do VR. It's like no, you can't like that's very different. You can learn hundred percent no one is born knowing any of this, but I think someone just sort of making that jump is kind of a lot.

Sue Robinson

What is the number one misconception that clients have about the car that you have to dispel when you meet with them?

Cortney Harding

So I think a lot of them think it's more expensive than it actually is. Um, it's funny, it's there's like a weird. It's like doing VR is basically kind of like being on the prices, right? Sometimes when you have one group of people who think like, Oh, I can get this amazing piece for $20,000. You can't. And another group of people who think, Oh, this costs a million dollars, which it doesn't have to. And people don't understand VR budgets. We have a budgeting tool that we use, that's this really intense spreadsheet. And, you know, we are super transparent about how we budget everything. And there are some overlaps with like, regular production cost of VR production costs, right, like hiring an actor for a day is the same cost in VR, not in VR, but obviously, there's tons of other considerations that go into it. And you know, I feel like people also have an idea that like, you can cut corners, you can do things more cheaply. And it's just, I mean, you can, but it's not gonna work, like you're gonna get a really poor quality product. And I feel like people get too hung up on sometimes the cost to the exclusion, like, you get what you pay for, right? You know, and it's hard, I think, with a lot of companies because their budgets are so sort of specific and tied to certain timelines. So that's where it gets challenging for me having to explain Okay, yeah, you'll spend a little bit more now, but the return on investment you're gonna get is like 10 x bigger and here's why. And a lot Like, some people get it and some don't

Vanessa Alava 

Definitely no, I, we struggle with the same thing. And our you know, because we do similar things, we do the same thing where it's client education and explaining that because it is such a different medium, and to make it as immersive as possible and with that immersion, people are going to feel more of that reality, that sense of reality when they're in the experience that the adds to it. That's what makes it what it is. So we completely get that.

Sue Robinson 

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm really intrigued by your career path. And I'm wondering, Courtney, when you when you started out years ago, did you ever think you would be an entrepreneur?

Cortney Harding 

Oh, not really. I mean, I, I had this very strange zigzaggy career path. So when I was in high school, I went to high school in Pacific Northwest in the 1990s. So giving my age away, whatever. But I got really interested in like Riot girl and activism. And I started volunteering for an organization that was like registered gun voters. And I kind of was like, oh, if I just run these voter registration tables, I can go to any concert I want is who's going to be mad at like a bright eyed, bushy tailed young teenager trying to get people to vote. So I started this sort of little group in Portland where I'm from that, you know, we just ran all these voter registration tables, and we would do benefit concerts for like local nonprofits. And then I went to college, to do political science. I kind of thought I would do that. And then I got into music journalism, kind of around the same time. I did. college radio. And then basically I went back to Portland where I'm from after college, worked in politics for a while, kind of burned out on it. Got this opportunity in the music journalism space took it, thinking it would just be like sort of a fun thing to do. And then, like gotten to grad school public policy was like, okay, that seems like a safer bet. move to New York, got more into music journalism, so I've always like, bounced around and bounced back and forth. So yeah, I mean, I really I was I was a writer and an editor at billboard for four years after graduate school. And then that was when the music technology was getting really big. So Spotify came to the US in 2011. That's when I left billboard, I started working for music tech companies. So I was running a consultancy on my own working with international music tech startups that wanted to launch in the US. So that was kind of entrepreneurial. And I was working for really tiny startups. So I was often in leadership roles there just because, you know, a team of 10 people like on a series A And then I went to work for a small VR production company. And then yeah, I mean, I feel like I've always kind of like to start things and do things and run things. Um, and yeah, I mean, it's definitely been, I think, you know, people have asked me in the past, like, how do you sort of read all these things together. And I think the thing that I can do pretty well is live at the intersection of art and commerce. Because I know a lot of people that are really brilliant creatives, and so, so good at that. And I don't consider myself nearly close to that. But like, these people cannot function in sort of a more corporate environment, right. Like, I've dealt with these directors who are just brilliant artists, and I love them to death and they're friends of mine. And like, if you ask them to show up for a meeting, they'll just like, shut you down. They'd like now. Right? Like they can't like put on a suit and go to 9am meeting and on the other side of things, You know, I can put on a suit and go 9am meeting. I don't like it, but I can do it. Um, and so I can kind of like pull together like the commerce thread the art thread, the, you know, pulling everyone together and kind of managing everything and letting other people have sort of their expertise and create spaces for their expertise to be really valued. So, you know, I think about what I want the vision for friends with holograms to be as we grow, and really thinking about, like, I would just love to employ the New York VR scene, right? Like, there's so many brilliant, awesome, talented, cool, interesting, smart people in New York making VR. And if I could just be like, sort of the pipeline for them to do work and to do interesting work or even you know, if it's like corporate work, that'll fund the art projects and have this like, amazing community of smart talented makers, and just be like this sort of vector between that like that's if I think about We're all friends with holograms to be it's that it's creating, you know, really groundbreaking really game changing, immersive work that has a social good focus. And using like the best people out there.

Sue Robison

I love that you said that because I think so much. So often people think to be in this space, you have to be a coder or you have to be very one side of your brain. And one of the things that Vanessa and I want to do with this podcast is really speak to a wide audience, including young women who are interested in technology, but who may be more the creative side of their brain than the you know, coding side and what I'm hearing you say is that is that this technology needs both.

Cortney Harding 

Yeah, I mean, listen, if you put a gun to my head and asked me to do something in unity, like okay, I'm dead.Right, like I I think you should know, a little bit like I know enough to talk to devs um, and I've taken like a couple of online The course is just so I know, like the absolute fundamentals of what isn't is not possible. And I think that's a good place to come from, just because you kind of need to know the limits and the bounds and everything like that. Beyond that, you know, one thing that really annoys me when people have conversations about women in STEM, which, you know, should be encouraged, like women should be encouraged to pursue those roles. But the sort of creativity and humanity if all you're doing is encouraging people to sort of focus on some very narrow lane, you're gonna lose a lot of really good ideas. And I see a lot of VR projects in particular that are built by people who have really great technical knowledge, but they can't tell a story to save their lives. And, you know, that's where again, you need like the art and the commerce and the tech not like everything needs to kind of meet up and if you have something that's too loaded On one side or the other, you're you're not going to get a good product. So I would encourage people if they're interested, yeah, like, if you want to learn to code, like, learn to code, you'll make a bunch of money. But I think a lot of these companies don't understand the need for creativity and people who know how to tell stories and 360. And I think a lot of them are going to fall flat because they're just creating this content that again, it's technically really interesting and really well done. But no one's going to engage with it and watch it because there's no story.

Vanessa Alava 

And to add to that point, you need somebody to also be able to articulate the tech in like jargon that the layman person will understand, like, the things that we talked about, you know, our programmers in the back are really nitty gritty. And when they get excited, they get nitty grittier. They're in front of somebody who doesn't really get it again, we're Introducing VR to people that sometimes most of the time, it's their very first time in a headset, that alone, you know, blows their mind but blows their mind in a way that sounds, you know, very intimidating. So you need somebody that can take the technical and explain it in a way that feels safe to a person who's trying this for the first time.

Sue Robinson 

Safe and Relatable. Yeah. 

Cortney Harding - 26:21

100% and you need someone who can sort of take whatever's being demoed, and make it applicable to the person who's watching the demo. So I had this experience a couple weeks ago, where, you know, I was at an event and I was sort of helping out with some demos and this really smart, really, really smart young guy came up and he was showing someone his his demo that he built in HoloLens, and he just got so technical about it. But like it was a non-technical audience and he was way too technical and just didn't make the connection. And a certain point, I just jumped. I was like, Is it okay? If I jump in? And he was like, Hey, I find, and I just basically jumped in. And I was like, Hey, you know, you work for an airline. And so here's how this data visualization can help you do x. And here's how this can help you tell the story, and you really just kind of pulling everything together. And that was what kind of got a good response. And then, you know, like, they can bring him in, and he can talk to their technical teams and their technical teams, like geek out with him, and then everyone's happy. But anything that is too technical for a non-technical audience, right off the bat, you're just gonna lose everyone, right? So, yeah, I totally think that you need people that can speak that language for a broader audience. And there are some technologists who really can do that, like one of my closest collaborators. And he's a dear friend of mine, like he's a creative technologist. So he's like, super technical. And I've watched him go way off the deep end, and I'm just like, okay, dude, I'm gonna go walk around the block and let you do your thing. But he can also explain to people in a way that is very digestible. I have a couple of friends like that. That's not the majority of developers that I've at least run across.

Sue Robinson 

I think that's such a great point. And I think you can scare people off of a really great technology, if it sounds a lot harder than what they need to know. I mean, nobody has to know how to build it and do all the backend stuff. But the client just needs to know that it's going to work for them every time that is Gonna be intuitive and easy. And then it's going to tell their story in a really memorable way, or train their, their workforce in a really, again, memorable way.

Sue Robinson 

What is one thing that that the technology doesn't do now that the audience Doesn't do now that you want it to do. And maybe you're predicting that it will do soon. 

Cortney Harding 

Like,right now, VR, is a very, isolating is not the right word for necessarily, although it can be and that's my I can talk about in a minute, like, VR does not take into account everything else that is going on around you. So you know, I can be in VR and have a very different type of reaction to the person who's doing the VR experience next to me, and there's no way to sort of tell what my reaction is. I also think that I've seen a few use cases where people sort of incorporate other senses into VR. And I think that is a huge push forward. So I would love to have more VR that is has more biometric feedback that collects more sort of biometric data, and allows you to experience things with other senses. So one of the very first things that we ever scoped at friends with holograms, this was a couple years ago now was we did all the creative for a piece on how to lift a box with correct form in VR. 

Sue Robinson

Oh, my God. Boring,

Vanessa Alava 

Very interesting.

Cortney Harding 

That's what the client wanted. And we were like, Okay, how do we make this not awful? So we basically rigged up something where you had all these sensors on you and you had to mimic the movement of the The person lifting the box and we kind of gamified it. And then, you know, the there was sort of feedback. So if you rounded your back in a certain way, which you're not supposed to, then you got like a little zap. And then you kind of got rewarded for having all of your body in correct alignment as you lift a box. Yeah, listen, it's not gonna win Tribeca Film Festival. But it was interesting because at least it gave people sort of a multi sensory experience, right? And it allowed people to correct their behavior on the go, and sort of get that immediate feedback. Um, so like, that's the type of stuff I get excited about, you know, I think touch in VR is really interesting. So, right now I think in VR touches either like very sexual right if you're in those sort of your sex workspace, or like very scary, right so I've certainly messed with friends of mine that are doing horror VR pieces by like sneaking up behind me recommend doing unless you're pretty good friends with someone

Vanessa Alava 

That could be very jarring for sure.

Cortney Harding 

It was super jarring man. I like scared really scared a few people and I've had I almost took a swing at my friend who I was doing walk the plank, and he like pushed me off. And I just like, really kind of lost it on it. And so yeah, I mean, so but there's no sort of like playful touch in VR. So you have more of that type of stuff, just like more. I don't know if this is going to be a big year for VR. Absolutely. But I'm definitely excited to see like, how do we broaden everything out? And how do we make it more multi-sensory, and just kind of go from there.

Sue Robinson 

It's interesting that you say that because my youngest daughter and I were talking about this this afternoon, and about the idea of maybe attending a concert in VR, and she was like, you know, I don't think I'd want to do that. Because such a big part of a concert is the interaction with the people around you, and maybe meeting somebody new and making friends with them and just sort of the vibe and, and so when you use the word isolating, I mean, there is that right? That that's a that is a kind of constraint that virtual reality has now that We'll have to I don't know how we get around that in the future.

Cortney Harding

So I think the concert piece is interesting. I think live music and I actually originally kind of was thinking about like, oh, live music is the perfect use case for VR. And I, I generally don't think that anymore. I think live music is very much about like, being around people and being in a space. I think a lot of what draws people to see live shows is also sort of the exclusivity of it right? So you have to be there and specific place in time. Um, I haven't seen anything. I mean, I've seen a lot of VR concert pieces, I haven't seen anything that I've loved to be perfectly honest, I think a lot of them make the mistake of moving everyone around and putting everyone at these sort of odd angles. And that's kind of weird. Like, it's kind of weird. Just be like, Oh, I'm right in front of the stage or like, I'm standing right next to the singer. Like, that's very unnatural. So yeah, the live concert thing in VR, I haven't. I'm not as big on and it does feel isolating. I think what we try to do with our stuff is make it even though it is single user, you are engaged, right? So that's another big part of the concert stuff. You're not really I mean, you're watching you're a passive observer, right? And even like, I went, I was traveling a few weeks ago, and I went to this really awesome rock show. And I was in I was in Prague. So like, I didn't know you know, I don't speak Czech. So I'm just standing there. I can't understand what anyone's saying. And I don't know anyone because I was just there for a few days and I was just like hanging out, standing in the back, drinking a beer. And even then it was my interaction was minimal, but it was still like I was applauding, and I was kind of moving around and, and even those baseline interactions you don't get in VR. So I feel like, you know, the way we try to design, a lot of it is like you're talking or you're gazing or you're interacting somehow, and people are addressing you, and they're interacting with you. And another huge mistake that I see is, you know, the user is the cameras, the user, right, and people forget that all the time. And so I've seen pieces, I saw a piece recently. That was generally pretty well done. Except the the camera for part of it, like you were in the middle of the table. So everyone's sitting around you. And then the perspective was like, You are sitting on the table, which like people don't do in real life, right? I don't like passive VR pieces where no one interacts with you, unless it's like for very specific creative purpose. So someone was showing me some footage you shot. And at one point, there were people in there, and the people were just like, looking at the the user of the camera with like, hostility. And I was just like, I don't feel comfortable in this, right? Like, I'm like, Why are these people glaring at me? Um, and so you have to have that perspective and that interactivity you need to always remember that, like, the user has to do something, right, even no matter what it is, they need to do something.

Vanessa Alava 

Right. And I think that there is somewhat a time in place for the Those more isolated in we're talking about potential enterprise applications, right? You want that person to be engulfed and immersed in that, you know, no distractions type of environment, you know, you want that, as opposed to a concert, which is more of a social atmosphere. And yeah, I'm with you guys. I don't know how we, you know, if there's a resolution or we combat that, because it's, you know, even you're in Prague, and it's a limited interaction, it's still memorable because you're in Prague and you're hearing people speaking at different accents, and it adds to that experience, you know, so I, as much as Yeah, you could be a passer-by in a in a VR experience at a concert. It's not the same as actually being there and feeling the bass and in smelling the smells, and you know, all the things right that make a concert, a concert and live music, live music. 

Cortney Harding

Yeah. 

Sue Robinson

Yeah, absolutely. So what are some questions, Cortney, say somebody is listening to this show and they're a small business or medium sized business. And they're thinking about exploring virtual reality for training, what are some questions that those folks should be asking themselves right out of the gate?

Cortney Harding 

So we ideally, come in with two questions answered. The first question is, what is your biggest challenge? And the second question is, what is your budget. So we can work with different price ranges, we have a we have a floor for an engagement, and that's just so that, you know, we can cover our costs and we can keep running. And then obviously, the higher you go, the more interesting stuff we can do. But we need we need a number off the bat to start with and it can be a range it doesn't have to be like an exact fixed budget, but we we need to have that clarity pretty much upfront and then we need an idea. Right, we need a problem to solve. So, you know, we had a client call us maybe a month or two ago, and she basically had been brought on as head of human resources for a large company. And the problem she was trying to solve is that all of these senior leadership who were non-white weren't leaving. And she needed to figure out, you know, is this unconscious bias? And, you know, she did a lot of research, and she found these sort of situations where there were microaggressions, and that was causing people leave. And so, you know, she was like, well, I want a VR situation that helps people understand how to deal with microaggressions. And I was like, awesome. We can run with that. So I don't like it when clients come in being too prescriptive, because unless you have smaller team who is a really experienced, VR, director, producer, whatever You know, creative for VR is pretty different than creative for flat video. So we've had a lot of experiences where a client will say, Okay, well we did this video, we want a VR version of it. And I have to say to them, well, that's not going to work, because you're doing things in the in the story that will work fine in a flat video, but won't work in VR. So it's really, you know, the sort of more leverage we can have, the better. And we're really collaborative. Like, we work very closely with all of our clients, and we're constantly collaborating with them. And they're the subject matter experts, right? Like, we're just the VR people. So it's really about, you know, working with them to solve this overarching problem. So yeah, I mean, that's where clients really need to start thinking is, you know, Target, no problem, getting the budget together and then reaching out to us and we can really iterate from there.

Vanessa Alava - 43:16

Awesome. All right. So we're going to ask you in this lightning round, to do a few things for us. Some of them are going to be questions and some of them are just going to be exercises. So the first one I would consider an exercise. So finish this sentence. Women are…

Cortney Harding 

I think women are angry right now. I think, you know, I don't want to get super political on here but I will say when Elizabeth Warren dropped out I was really upset. And, you know, I was a fan of hers and I liked her politics, but more than anything, it was really The fact that she was this incredibly qualified, incredibly prepared, incredibly hard working woman. And she just, you know, there was so much sexism around the reasons people didn't like her. And you didn't really hear people say, Oh, I disagree with her plan for this, or I think she used her position on this as bad it was really, you'd hear men say, Oh, she's just like a high school principal, or I don't like how she speaks. And I can't stand the way she talks and this really sort of awful, sexist, negative stuff that was out there. And I feel like right now, you know, I was asked to do a piece for a client to help women stand up for themselves. And I really was like, I don't want to do this because I want to turn this around. And I want to make this about, Yeah, fine. Women can learn how to say Don't interrupt me, but you know what? Men can also learn how to not interrupt us, right? Like, men can learn how to not do bad things. And I don't think we should always be in a position of fighting and saying like, You know, gee, I'm really sorry. I know you didn't mean to interrupt me, but you know, it hurt my feelings. So can you just let me talk? Rather than just saying like, no, like, Don't Don't interrupt me, like, that's not okay, and just setting that social norm. Um, and yeah, I feel like women are just at this point, or a lot of the women that I know are just really kind of over it.

Vanessa Alava

It's really interesting. You mentioned that and I love your honesty and transparency, you can get however you'd like. That's what we would this show is all about. So thank you for that. It's interesting, in many ways, we've we've come a long way. And then we're just scratching the surface and in certain areas, and, you know, I think it's sometimes geographical to and regional, depending on where you are, on how people interpret that direct like, you know, don't interrupt me, you know, I'm a human, you're a human forget, like, you know, gender here is just respect and some people expect you depending on Where you are geographically, again, to say, oh, excuse me, please. And it's like this political correctness of like trying to be polite, but also the it's like no, screw that because you know what a guy can say it, no big deal and move on but a woman says it that way. And you know, it's your words. Mind right? It's so wrong and I have encountered this not only with men, but with women, with the women and that I feel it's like the most insulting because like men have been doing this forever. And it's been swept under the rug and but for a woman to do that you're like really, really? Well, I thought we were on the same side here, you know. So it's just really interesting. 

Sue Robinson

well, I think that leads really well into our second lightning round question. Cortney, what are three pieces of advice that you would give your younger self?

Cortney Harding 

Oh my god, I love this question. Buy Apple stock. That's good. You know that I'd be wealthy and I wouldn't have to as much as I love doing this. I would love to be doing this on a beach somewhere rather than in New York City.

Cortney Harding 

Never stop asking for things right? I feel like at a certain point, I stopped asking for things and demanding things. And I think that happens to a lot of women. I think women are socialized to sort of be very meek and very kind of like, Oh, well, if you wouldn't mind, would it be okay, right? Like these, these these ways of asking for things that are not direct. I do think that one thing I was better at when I was younger, is You know, asking for things. So I think that Oh wait, this is I reverse this advice. The younger version of myself would give my, um, okay, so whatever fine still it's still good. It's still good. I'm also like I The third one is probably like, don't wear Chuck Taylor All Stars everyday because we'll just wreck your feet.

Sue Robinson 

Good Practical Tip

Cortney Harding

Really regret wearing Chuck Taylors every single day

Vanessa Alava

Life lessons. 

Sue Robinson

That's so funny. You know, you're you reminded me about asking for things my mom used to tell me when I was a kid. Always ask because if you don't, you've already made the decision for them. And I thought that was great advice. And you're right. We have to keep reminding ourselves of that our whole lives because for some women, for some reason, I think it's harder for us as women 

Vanessa Alava

Hmm. The worst somebody can say is No. Yes. And then what you continue and you move on and yes, the next question. All right, what is your current favorite application of tech for good?

Cortney Harding

I was thinking about this when I saw that question. So there's a really interesting. So this isn't VR, but I think it's fascinating. So there's another startup that was at South by last year, called what three words. And it's basically helping people who are off the grid kind of map themselves. So, you know, there's huge populations of people that are very isolated and very rural and maybe don't have like systems in place to get things delivered to them or work to let people know where they are. And when you look at like nomadic tribes that are kind of constantly moving, like helping those people find like, fixed places I think is really interesting. So what three words is this like random generator for all of these different locations? And I just think what they're doing is really, really interesting in terms of like, helping people find their locations and sort of claim their limitations. I think especially for people that are sort of like housing insecure, or location insecure, or maybe they're just nomadic, like giving them the ability to have a fixed place is really interesting. So thinking of this in the context of people that are like homeless, you know, if I'm a person experiencing homelessness, and I call for services, like, what location Am I going to give them, right? And so if I can have some sort of fixed location that is easy to remember, and that is kind of universally known that I can give give someone who's trying to help me or I'm asking for help. Like that, to me is really interesting. So that's one that I've just been thinking about a lot. Again, it has nothing to do with VR, but I think that it's it's just kind of interesting and clever, and I hope that it's really successful.

Sue Robinson 

I love that. Um, I would love to To find out if there's a woman involved with that. Okay. Next question. What issue do you most hope technology will resolve in the future?

Cortney Harding 

I'm really interested in using this technology for like, visual communication. So I'll give you a couple examples. So I have a close friend that I work with who is dyslexic, and he's got this like really brilliant technical mind, but,you know, the way he was taught as a kid was very structured. And linear and he did very poorly in school and had really, really negative experiences. Because the way he learned was not sort of catered to, I think that's changing. Not fast enough. But I think if we can have experiences for like people that are visual learners, or people that are interactive learners, or you know, there are a lot of people that are functionally illiterate in certain parts of the world, and can we create experiences that are visually driven, in order for them to be able to sort of communicate in certain ways and I think this is something you see with a lot of younger people like my, you know, the teenagers, I know, they'll just text me emojis all day long, right? And they'll text each other emojis all day long. And so we're starting to see this trend towards like visual communication and you know, something like Tick Tock versus Twitter's really interesting. You know, the the fact that Twitter is primarily sort of a word based Why based, propaganda based platform? Um, that's something that my generation is doing versus Tick tock, which is like, awful stuff on Tick tock, as well, but it's super visual and super video based. Um, I feel like that's really interesting. And I feel like that's a different mode of communication than we're used to. And I gave a talk on this like, last year, and people were kind of freaking out and like, it's the end of books and newspapers, I'm like, No, it's not those things will continue to exist to be really valuable. But understand that like some people learn best from reading books, and that's amazing. And some people learn best from building things. And that's amazing. And some people learn best from like visual cues. And that's amazing. And it's not about taking away books, or newspapers or magazines. I like all those things. And I learned from those but it's really more about opening communication and learning up to people who have different modalities of doing it.

Vanessa Alava 

I love that so much and you know, it's so relevant to us because we Talk about this literally all the time about being in a room and being inclusive of people that learn in different ways that come from different backgrounds. And obviously, especially virtual reality for education is such a great use case, but to teach people that learn in different ways is such a tremendous opportunity. But then, to extend that even further, to have those people that are learning in those different ways to be in the rooms, making decisions for, you know, hardware development, or software development, or whatever it may be, just because you're getting that completely different perspective. And they look at said something just so vastly different from the way you do. And those are important views.

Sue Robinson 

Yeah, exactly. It takes all kinds of mind and especially, technology is such a huge part of our lives, and it determines so much of our lives that we need all kinds of minds, creating that technology.

Cortney Harding 

Yeah, absolutely.

Vanessa Alava 

All right. The next exercise describe the future In one word.

Cortney Harding 

So, you know what? I'll go with unwritten? So yeah, written because like we you know we live in a time ordinary uncertainty and that is very very difficult to deal with but it's also really interesting because like things are so wide open and I think about you know if 10 years ago 15 years ago 20 years ago, somebody's been like, oh, you're gonna run a VR agency? I would have been like, what that what the hell is VR? Like, what even is that? That sounds weird and, you know, I think about this trend. like asking kids what they want to be when they grow up. And I understand it's rooted in, like, kids need to think about the future and whatever. But like, the fact is, most kids today, like, the job they're going to have in 20 years hasn't been invented yet. And I think the fact that there is still so much iterating we can do in terms of building the future, is really valuable opportunity for those of us that have to consider like the ethics of technology, and how do we build things that are sustainable and value positive, or at least value neutral and, you know, not building these technology platforms that are actively harmful? You know, like, we have it within our power to determinately some of the future in terms of how this technology actually be used. And like there's a there's a world where this technology gets all the humanity sucked out of it. And that world scares me. And if VR turns into something where there's just like, you know, it's all just CGI based kind of simulations that aren't good or interesting or if you humane, like, if those folks win the battle, like, I'll just go, I'll go do something else, you know, the the keeping the humanity and technology is really important. And I think if we see the future, something that is not entirely determined, and that we have the agency to at least kind of determine some of it, then I think we put ourselves in a much better position than if we just kind of throw up our hands or like, Yeah, whatever. It's all over.

Sue Robinson 

Right? We're 100% agree with that. And I think that's a big reason why we wanted to start the show is because we want to bring all kinds of people into the conversation. In order to have input, you have to first understand what the technology is. And that can be pretty daunting because it's changing exponentially. And if you're not, again, somebody who considers yourself at the core a technologist, it could be easy to just be intimidated and check out and say, Oh, I'm just going to trust the people who know how this stuff forks to do the right thing with it. And that would be a very foolish and unfortunate thing to do. 

Sue Robinson

Okay, last lightning round question fill in the blank blank, like a girl.

Cortney Harding 

Create. Yeah, great, like make the unique stuff. One thing that kind of annoys me is I see people who like critique or they like VR, or they think things are interesting, but they don't make things and I think women are generally less encouraged to just create stuff. And one of the best things I ever did for myself was get a 360 camera and they're really affordable. You know, they're like a couple hundred bucks for one that's actually not bad. And I just started making things and most of them are terrible. Most of them will never see the light of day but I learned what to do. And you know, even if you make something that's not very Good, you'll probably learn something. And I mean, I think the rise of like maker culture has been so good for everyone. And, you know, I've taught a lot of people how to shoot 360. And they come away with it, you know, like, I'll teach them on how to shoot 360. And I'll put what they built in the headset, and I'll say, look, here's your VR piece. And it kind of blows their minds because they were like, Oh, this is so much easier than I thought it would be. but just to sort of break down and demystify all those barriers around technology. And one thing that drives me nuts is we have sort of a generation of people in the US who, for some reason, they find technology very alienating, and they put themselves in a position where You know, oh, well, I don't I don't get how it works and, and it's like, learn like it's not, you know, again, you know, I don't know how to code anything, right, but I know kind of how things work and I can figure stuff out more or less. And, and, you know, it's not that, you know, older people or certain people need to know how to like, build, you know, build code a website, right. But they need to kind of know how to problem solve, and not be intimidated by technology. And I find it so frustrating on so many levels when older people and I feel like especially older women are left out of the conversation because they could be doing interesting stuff and they could be creating or they could at least be empowered to solve their own problems. And I see a lot of older women who just accepted this really passive role when it comes to technology. And that's just kind of not great. Like, you should have an Akron you should be an active participant in the things that are sort of factoring into your life and You know, the more I can encourage women to create and even if it's just creating Little things like that's still incredibly important.

Sue Robinson

I think that's a great great note to end on. We just want to give you a chance to let our audience know how they can get ahold of you.

Cortney Harding 

So I am on all the social media platforms. You can find me personally at Cortney co RT ny Harding, on Twitter and on Instagram. Twitter, I mostly tweet about VR and other stuff that's interesting Instagram, I do some instagramming about VR and a lot about my dog. Hologram friend is our friends with holograms. a Twitter account that's solely VR content. Our website is friends with holograms.com. And yeah, you can follow me on LinkedIn. And yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm based in New York, I love meeting people that are passionate about VR. And I was, you know, I'm traveling a bunch or was traveling a bunch, but I'm always happy to meet people have coffee with people and talk about the stuff I really do. Like I love it like this stuff. Really lights me up. And I love meeting people that are also interested in it and just sort of having brainstorming sessions with them and learning about what other people are doing and seeing other people's work. And yeah, I really want to. I mean, I always want to give attention to good creators, but I especially want to give attention to good creators who are women, non-white, non-binary come from different backgrounds like first gen second gen immigrants like, like all the people who have really different perspectives and are creating good stuff. Those are the people that I really, really want to highlight and see their work and give attention to so. Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find. I have a very SEO friendly name. So yeah, hit me up.

Vanessa Alava 

Sounds great. Well, Courtney, thank you so much. for visiting with us today and please, please come back. We’d love to chat with you and keep in touch with you if you're ever in the Raleigh-Durham area hit us up, please. 

Cortney Harding

Absolutely.

Sue Robinson

Yes. Thank you. We really enjoyed speaking with you today. Lots of great stuff.

Cortney Harding 

No. Thank you guys. Thank you.