188 - ADHD Organizing, Our Nervous System, And More with Megs Crawford

Megs is back! 

Megs Crawford is the host of the Organizing an ADHD Brain podcast, professional organizer, and coach. She has dedicated her career to empowering women to understand their unique brains and create a more organized and peaceful life. She is phenomenal, and today she is talking with me about the emotional side of organizing with some great insights about our nervous system. Give a listen! 

Mentioned in the podcast:

Organizing an ADHD Brain website

Organizing an ADHD Brain podcast

Megs Crawford's Dopamine Menu

Come to the Declutter Body Double Event with Megs!

[REPLAY] of Megs Crawford Taming the Chaos: ADHD Meets Organization Workshop

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Alrighty, we're into our second week of getting organized and decluttered here at ADHDBig Brother. This has been a very interesting couple of weeks, and I said let's just keep the ball rolling down the mountain with our special guest today, Megs Crawford. Get out to Doom Piles! Let's get to it. You are listening to ADHD Big Brother, the podcast for adults struggling with their ADHD and their depression and anxiety and growth. I'm your host, Russ Jones. I'm an ADHD coach, and I run a final award-winning community coaching of the same name, ADHD Big Brother. And I also have ADHD and depression. It's crapastic. Welcome aboard. Let's learn some stuff, laugh at some stuff. And ladies and gentlemen, here's some stuff. Welcome to the podcast, you sons of guns. How the heck are you? Um I hope you guys are having a great April so far. This has been a really interesting couple weeks. Um, I think I bel I believe that I am on the precipice of a burnout. Okay. This is what happens when you go really hardcore. And you know, that's the price you pay. Not gonna lie, the solopreneur life, it's not all glamour like you like you might uh expect. There is a lot of, oh my sweet merciful heaven, this workload is endless. I've been extra forgetful. And I brought this up to my mentor, Dana Rayburn. Shout out to Dana, she's uh badass ADHD coach. Uh, and she's was the one, but she's the one that put the mirror up because I was finding myself forgetting things, even though I had alarms. You know, I know how to remember shit. I am well versed in the art form. But that's the ADHD way. You know, you can get complacent, and you know, and maybe it's time to have a second alarm for a while at least. Um, so this is basically my mental health update. I mean, if if you're new here, I think it's cool to normalize talking about our skull spaghetti, you know, brain butts, the good, the bad, and the weird. Uh, so we can all support each other. Because most of us are not quote unquote fine, or you know, I'm good, thanks for asking. Uh, but that's how it feels sometimes. Like, every is everybody fine? Am I the only one that doesn't like myself? What the fuck is going on? So let's just be cool talking about it, be cool with ourselves about it. In reflection, I yeah, I've been really lacking motivation. It's interesting because if if I didn't talk about it, I don't no one would know really, because I have the time of my life when I'm in a workshop or when I'm on a Zoom call or you know, when I'm in the community, or when I'm with my girlfriend, I'm happy, when I'm with my kids, I'm happy. But when everything goes quiet and I have to be my own company, oh what a dick. And that's what I'm working on. Maybe next we'll talk about decluttering the garbage on our brain. Man, that would be a good episode. Um, but to summarize my mental health, I'm actively looking at ways to combat burnout that does not include isolating. Uh, I feel like there's this a really heavy rubber band attached to me in my bed. It's it's a bit of an effort, you know, to not slide back into bed. It would be so easy for me just to get right back into bed. I'm almost pulled towards it. Um, and to stay out of bed feels like I'm I'm I'm pulling against tension. And I justify being in bed. Like, oh, I'm I'm listening to a guided meditation, so this is good. I'm taking care of my spiritual energy. Like, really, it's kind of seems like it's my third nap. Kind of seems like I'm napping. Um, and for me, that's just a recipe for disaster. So I'm looking at ways to force feed myself, like hanging out in the body double room more. Um, case in point, I'm literally recording this. Lisa, you're you are in the body double room with me right now. She knows I'm recording this. She's working away on what she's working on. And I'm like, this is the motivation, this is what I need for me to record this intro part of the podcast. You know, you do what you gotta do. Um, so God bless this community. And then the other thing is I'm if I'm gonna meditate, I'm trying to really push myself to sit on the cushion so it's not a lay down meditation, quote unquote, nap. All right, enough about my skull spaghetti. Long story short, I'm working on it, I'm recognizing some things that need um focus or attention, and I am focus or attentioning them. Um, so enough about the skull spaghetti. All right, I had a phenomenal conversation with Megs Crawford recently. If you are new to our great friend Megs Crawford, she is the host of uh organizing an ADHD Brain Podcast. She's a professional organizer and a coach. She's dedicated her career to empowering women to understand their unique brains and create a more organized and peaceful life. And she is so good at it. She's helped us out so much in our community. She is our bat signal when we need organizational help. And we put that signal out for uh our themed month on organization and decluttering this month, and she has answered the call. We're talking about emotional hurdles of decluttering our nervous system and recognizing emotional triggers when it comes to organizing. So let's just jump into the conversation. It's already in progress. And we started, we we just started recording as we were wrapping up talking about uh RV plans as Megs is moving across the country. So here, let's listen in. Here's the conversation with me and Megs already in progress.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

Okay, so I was working with a career coach and I wrote this letter to myself. It was a future letter. So, and I do this with my clients too, because it's so powerful. But it was a letter to myself a year into the future, and I was talking about how I was sitting on the beach working, and I saw my husband and my kids and my dogs playing on the beach. And I was just like, I was trying to craft this life for myself because I didn't know if I wanted to be in the corporate world or start my own business. Or I actually hadn't even thought about starting my own business. And I was sitting there and I was like, what would my boss think about this? Like, who is my boss? And then I was like, oh my gosh, there's no one out there who would give me the flexibility that I truly want and desire in this world. And so that's when I decided to yeah, become an entrepreneur. So like now I'm like, okay, so if we sell everything and like we could spend a week where I'm still working, but we're also on the beach and like we're enjoying our life and we don't have to be anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

So yeah, it's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

It's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Okay, so wait a minute. So the uh so I'm my goal is literally Alistair graduates, I'm in an RV, and I'm I live and work, right? I I yeah exist in nature and I'm vacationing and I'm working at the same time. Yeah, your situation's a little bit different here. You you've got uh are you talking about just RVing your way to Massachusetts for the move? Are you talking about we live in an RV?

SPEAKER_03 7:12

So we don't know if we're gonna do an RV so much as like selling our cars and maybe getting a van that we could live out of for a month where we go to Disney World and then stop in different places. But we had thought about doing the RV thing, and then all the YouTube videos that give you the realities of RVing made me really sad about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

And I'm just like, no, don't listen to them. Oh my god, I've had the greatest experiences uh in an RV, yes, with my kids, and um, if you ever connect Debbie in the community, is literally um, I I don't think she's in one right now, but that that's what their plan is, and she has been living in one, and it can be cool. Yes, you have to clean out the the the poop thing or whatever. Sure, there's stuff that's gonna happen, but oh my god, you get to be wherever you decide you want to be.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

Yeah, it's so exciting. So we're we're really excited for this new adventure and just like I never thought I just I saw people doing these things, right? I saw people living in RVs or selling all their stuff. I just never thought that that would be me. I never I never thought that I could ever get to that point. And so when when we reached the point of letting go of our stuff, yeah, and then we realized how much money it was gonna cost to trans. I was like, how much do we really like our stuff? And like, what if we get there and our couch doesn't fit? Yeah, yeah, does that even exactly it doesn't it doesn't make sense? So like why I really like this couch, I really like our dishes, I really like our silverware, but like it's all replaceable. It's all replaceable. So, anyways, like it's just it's fascinating to be in this space.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I hope you do it. I I think it's really exciting. But on my end of the things, it it's like I had this thought of you know, when the kids are graduated and they're out. I'm like, do I want to be somebody that lives in a place and then has to save up to go visit a place? And I'm like, that just sounds um, I know uh I know homeownership and you know it's an it's an investment and asset and all that stuff, but I'm like, I don't care. I I I I I have a trouble staying in one place for too long. The only thing keeping me here right now is that I live inside the school district that Also school in. And I've even moved within the school district already once, but I promised him I was like, no more. Okay, buddy, no more. We're here until we're done. But um that's been sort of my hurt my hurdle or my my letter to myself would be I need to be able to be free to just roam, but I also have to make money. How does that work?

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yes. Have you heard the research done about how like ADHD is actually an evolved state of mind, and we our state of mind, yes, I know, right? Like we're better.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

I've always known it in my heart.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Me up for this one, but it it's like um we're in this evolved state of being because we're supposed to, our brains were designed to be nomadic. So, like when we are stuck in a place for too long, we we don't thrive anymore because we need a change of scenery. We need that new dopamine hit, we need this new adventure and the chance to be uncomfortable so that we can get comfortable doing something else until we're ready to not do that anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Oh my god, I I resonate with that a lot, and not to get this into a downer place, but like I I had read something a a while ago where people with ADHD, maybe also depression. Um, generally life is just this is it, blah. It's like this is so dumb. And so the the chase of like, I need something new, I want I want something more exciting in my life, totally tracks, totally tracks.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Yeah. Um, and it's and it's super uncomfortable too. Like it feels yucky to make so many big changes, and it's also empowering, and it feels really cool when you start to realize how much you are truly in control of and what you can work towards. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Oh my god, this is a perfect tie-in for us to talk about organizing right now. Okay, by the way. Yes, yes, you know, I I want to there was something specific, and we touched about it you and me just offline um a couple days ago, I think. But uh I I'm you know, because the whole month is all about um organization here. So the thing that I've been finding very interesting with like every day, there's some sort of a clutter challenge that we're doing. So I'm noticing that if I'm doing it on my own, I'm coming to see a lot of things that I don't like about myself, or I'm or I have difficult emotions with. Right. So for me, it was the spice rack. And I think I mentioned this on the last week's podcast. So I'll try and I'll just paraphrase it. But like it makes you face some of the flaws that you have determined about yourself. Like, oh, I'm a guy that always goes and buys garlic powder, and now I have a whole case, uh a whole cupboard full of garlic powder. What does that say about my mental health? Am I gonna have dementia and blah blah all these horrible things? But when I'm body doubling with it, it it becomes more comical and more fun and easy. Um I really wanted to bring that up and talk about that with you and get your your take on that.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Well, it's so um I love I love working with people with ADHD. Like the more people I meet, I'm just like, oh my gosh, like we're just such fascinating humans. But then we sit there in our shame and like it and and we wallow in that instead of our incredibleness. It's funny, I even posted about that online the other day, and someone was like, Oh, doesn't that help you recognize yourself a little bit more? And I was like, How dare you? How dare you turn that around on me? But I say that because uh when you start to see other people going through the some of the similar experiences that you're having, yeah, it makes you feel normal. It just makes you understand that, okay, I'm not the only one whose brain works like this. And so I might be feeling shame over this, and maybe not everyone else has all the garlic powder in the world, but they also might buy 15 tape measure measures just to be able to find a tape measure. I think I told you that story last week.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

That's the you story, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Yeah, so like I, you know, part of that is like I didn't trust myself. I didn't know that that's the what I was feeling. It's not like I was walking around like I don't trust myself, better go buy some tape measures. It was my husband and I always seemed to need a tape measure. We never put it back where it needed to go. It never had a home. We would just hope for the best and go to look at the tool bench when we would need one. There would never be one there. And so I ended up buying like a 12-pack or something off Amazon, wrapped them all up individually and put them in his stocking. And I was like, this is it. We'll never lose a tape measurer now. And like for the longest time, we would go to the spot, we'd always find one, but we still never put it back. And that's so interesting. And like it was it was just fascinating because I'm like, how many tape measures does one truly need? So now I've got all this stuff, multiples of so many items, but I'm not challenging myself, or I don't even know how to create a home for a space or for a thing. So I'm never gonna put it back. So now I'm just like wallowing in all of this chaos. And like it was as if my house was mirroring what was going on in my brain. So when you start to see what other people are going through and start to understand that you're not alone in this, it just makes you feel like you don't have to carry so much shame. Like it gives you a different perspective. And while it's still hard to let go, it's still gonna bring up emotions. You're able to go about it in a way where you're doing it with someone, and those emotions you could feel together instead of having to do it on your own, instead of having to say, like, this really stinks, this really sucks.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

So I feel like it's not as heavy. Like I can really sink. If I'm alone with only my own thoughts, that's my partner. That's the that's the the the voice coming back at me, and that gets a lot harder than uh like a fellow ADHD or right that's like, oh yeah, I have a shithole over here, you have a shithole over there, whatever. And it's you can you're still having that feeling, but you're it doesn't sink yet as much as is how I feel. Yeah, yeah, I forgot what I was gonna say. I had a I had a question I wanted to ask you about in terms of oh, I it's the there seems to be two components to uh to this for me, and I'd love to get your opinion on this, is I have uh either the there's the feeling problem, right? I I'm I don't want to do this work, I don't want to declutter, I don't want to organize because I'm worried I'm gonna feel crappy about myself. And then there's the it's just so overwhelming that there's tension to it, or that I just I don't know where to start or how to start or what to start on. It feels too far gone, maybe. And I'll be like, oh, that's for another day. That's when I have eight hours to to do this thing.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

What do you find in in the people that you work with and the situations that you deal with?

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Um, like how to get started, or like just recognizing that you need to get started and like where to begin, like what do you do with all these feelings, that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah, or like yeah, yeah, is is does this track with people how I feel about these things? Because I only can speak to myself. I'm like, this is how I feel. Um what do you see when the people that you work with?

SPEAKER_03 17:14

It's fascinating because everyone handles it a little bit differently, which is why with ADHD, we can't, we can't just I can't just start a podcast and say, this is how you organize your your fridge and this is how you organize your craft closet. Like while I think I thought that that's what I wanted to do now that I know so much more, that's just not how it works. And so there's a lot of feelings that come up when you're organizing, but I want to talk about our nervous system because like I sent you that tool the other day. And when I started doing regulation work and understanding my nervous system and how it relates to my ADHD, it changed the game for me when it comes to break it down. Not yeah, so not only organizing, but parenting, and then also just like handling life. And I'm gonna give you the parenting example first because um this is how I first discovered it in my own life and how I then translated it to the organizing world to help my clients and to help myself. So my kids have a natural react. My kids are likely either autistic, ADHD, and I'm definitely ADHD. And so we wear our emotions on our sleeve. We have very big emotions, and oftentimes we don't think before we react, we just react. And so when my daughters would be throwing temper tantrums, I would feel so overwhelmed and I felt like I needed to react. And that's truly what I learned growing up, right? Like I learned how to react in situations because that's what my parents did. And I tried, I learned how to shove my feelings down because I wasn't supposed to be able to express them. Um, and that's ultimately what they learned too, right? Like this is a lot of learned behavior passed on through so many different generations. Well, I just wanted so much more. I wanted to not be an angry mom. I wanted to learn how to teach my kids to cope with their emotions, but I didn't even know how to do it for myself. And I found um mindful as a mother, I highly recommend them. They're two therapists, best friends. They got together to teach regulation skills. I had no idea what I was getting into, but one of the first things they teach is recognizing what triggers you. And so one of the first things I did was just like starting to recognize like, oh, my daughter dragged herself out of the car and was like crawling across the garage floor to get into the house. I didn't like that, right? So like I thought I would write that down. But it was interesting because when I came back to it, I was like, oh, I forgot that even happened. Like it was, it was almost like it was an out-of-body experience. Well, then I started to notice where I was feeling it in my body. So, like when I get triggered, where do I notice it? So, what's interesting is like I notice it in my gut. My gut feels like really heavy and yucky, and I even feel it in the back of my neck. It gets a little tension-y. So, which is hilarious because my daughter explains to me when she gets angry, she gets growing pains in the back of her knees. And then my other daughter tells me her neck tickles. So, like she reaches for her neck, it tickles. So, like it's fascinating because now I'm understanding, like, oh my gosh, they're feeling it in their body. So from there, I use some sort of regulation technique that supports me in understanding what I want to do next. Instead of reacting, because I'm feeling it in my body first, I'm now able to recognize that I'm feeling this way and I want to react, but instead of just doing it, I get to consciously make a decision on what I'm gonna do next.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

This is the coolest stuff in the world. So when it comes to regulation and approaching your world when it comes to organizing, we are in a constant state of fight or flight. And so that's why I was saying that like everyone approaches it a little bit differently. And I sent you this tool the other day that I created for my clients because hold on, let me pull it up. It describes the different ways that everybody approaches their organization. Hold on, I sent it to myself so that I wouldn't lose it and it would be easy.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

I need to find a different way to I should put hold music on right now.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yeah, just put hold music. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

We're gonna have this in a second. Please hold okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

So one of them is fight mode. And this is this is my this is the way that I use to handle the clutter in my home is I feel frustrated and I'm annoyed at the state of my home. So for example, I start rage cleaning. Quickly, angrily throwing things out, scrubbing surfaces. Oftentimes I would find myself scrubbing baseboards. For what reason? For no reason, other than like I was so like into whatever the hell I was doing. But I would do it for like hours, right? And like my family would this would be like a body doubling experience, extreme. Um, but I would aggressively sort piles, often exhausting myself without making intentional decisions, right? And this is like maybe someone's coming over too, and I'm just like throwing things in places. I had no idea where things were going. So that was my general mode. Yeah. There's also flight mode, which is a lot of us too. I feel rushed and I want to jump to another task. So like I feel like I need to run out of the room or start something entirely different. What's interesting though is it's not like we're thinking about it. We're not actually intentionally saying, I'm gonna go bring this towel and put it into the laundry room. And now that I'm in the laundry room, I think it's time to start a load of laundry. I'm gonna avoid going back to the kitchen because of this. It's not like that. We're just following the breadcrumbs. So, like we're in flight mode. Like we're just jumping from one task to another because we don't have a plan in place, and that's just what we're doing. Um, there's also freeze mode. So I feel overwhelmed and stuck, not sure where to begin. Um, I'm I'm staring at the clutter and I can't decide what to do. My mind just goes blank. And then there's fond mode. So I'm seeking validation or waiting for direction. And this is often times where we jump into doing all the research that we need to do to find out the perfect solution to what we're trying to achieve. And then we're doing all the research that we don't actually do the action. So we don't make any progress except for the knowledge, right? So now we have all the knowledge, and that's what I find. Like most of my clients are telling me, like, I know so many things. I've followed so many declutters, I've I've like, I've read all the books, but I still can't seem to freaking do it. And so there's one thing in knowing what to do, the other thing is actually doing it and figuring out what works for you. But a part of it is truly recognizing what kind of nervous system reaction you're having to the state of your home and when you're having it. And then once you start to recognize where you're at and what you're feeling, you can start to come up with the right regulation technique for yourself so that you can start to approach things in a different way. And truthfully, it's not gonna be easy at first. Like it's part of this is challenging yourself to be uncomfortable. Like, how do you allow yourself to be uncomfortable? Because naturally we have a response where we've run away from uncomfortability and we're like, I don't want to declutter. I would so much rather go paint a mural on my child's wall, you know? Like I would so much rather do that than clean out the damn pantry and find excited expired items. But when we're not doing these regular maintenance things or the things that we need in order to clear out the space to live our life like regular human beings, we we clutter it up. It's it's obviously we're cluttering it up, but like it's not only cluttering our physical space up, but it's cluttering our physical or our mind too, where we can't make decisions as effectively because um, and I'm I'm so excited about the presentation in the group today because I'm gonna talk about this. Oh, right. And yeah, it's so like it's so good when you start to recognize this. But yeah, because I learned from mindful as a mother, like how to parent in this way, I was like, oh my gosh, this is literally my whole life. Like everything that I'm doing applies and it's fascinating. Oh my god, that's amazing stuff. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

By the way, so the you have already given the workshop. So by the time this comes out, the workshop that you yeah, that so sorry guys, hopefully you got it on the newsletter and you came to the workshop. I'm super stoked for it as well. Um so do you find like this to me is just this is the reason why I would hire you, right? I would hire you because um I I honestly like the the handhold or like it's more than teaching, right? Because I remember you did this with us when you we we did a decluttering session, right? And we're all having conversations, uh, we're talking, you're helping. I remember like I you would just say, um what is that over there? Because I didn't know where to start. And you and we were doing a bookshelf or uh it was my office shelf, I think. And uh you had me go pick something up and talk about it, uh, and then you asked me some questions and I went and did something. The the thing that's missing there is you. I'm missing a Megs uh being there with me, talking about it and helping me. I I'm advocating for having another person there to make that that uncomfortability less. Like that's absolutely why I would hire you. Is the be like, this is a painful process. I'm feeling it in the back of my neck and my ears and my butt and my shoulders. I'm my my system's going crazy. Yeah, and if there's a potentiality for me to only feel half of that because you're there, doesn't that make it easier or better? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Oh, a million percent. And and part of it is just like so uh on one hand, yes, like I'm holding your hand and I'm walking you through the process, but I'm also teaching you the skills for you to be able to do this on your own because well, I'd love for you to pay me forever. Also, you can't like that's not realistic. The goal is for you to learn some of these tools and some of these things to keep on the forefront of your mind so it makes it easier and you start to build this the tools that you need to live the life that you want to live. And part of it, just as you said, is just getting to the task, is like actually convincing yourself to finally doing do it. And part of it, like a lot of the times we avoid it because we're just waiting for that one day where you have enough energy or you get finally get the dopamine kick, like today's the day, and then you spend an eight hours cleaning out your closet, it's way too much, and then you don't want to put anything away, so you hastily put it away, and then it's back to kind of the way it was in the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, I that isn't that fascinating. I see that uh with people too. Like they the there's no there's also no chip away mentality a lot of times. It's like yeah, I need to wait until I have a five-hour chunk of time so that I can do quote unquote deep work. Yeah, I get it, but I'm like, what where are you getting that five hours? Yeah, and how are you going to start? How are you going to like how can you guarantee you're gonna be like, and it's a five hours when I have all the juice for this task, and I I can see it working out, so it's going to work out. Like those things just those stars never seem to align or they're not reliable.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Right. And and oftentimes we're in such a dysregulated state when we try to do things for hours at a time that we burn ourselves out because we're like so go, go, go, we can hyperfixate on something, and then we never want to go back to it because it burnt us out so much. So we remember how exhausting it is to do it. So organizing becomes exhausting that we like have equated the two together. Yeah. So part of it is like you said, is chipping away at it. Like, how do I break this up into small chunks and allow myself to be proud of these mini progress points? Like, even just saying, Yeah, even just bringing notice, because a lot of the times our clutter just disappears when we don't put our conscious brain on it, right? Because we're so focused on everything else that has to get done. We're dysregulated in other ways that we don't even realize it exists until we're overwhelmed by it. And now we're like, we go to one of those nervous system responses, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

So it's it's about saying, like, like it's okay if I take five minutes and just throw out trash. Or it's okay that I take some deep breaths and I put one thing away. And I ask myself, where would I go to look for this if I were trying to find it? And like trying to build trust in what you're doing. Cause so many aspects to organizing. Like, I honestly thought it was so much easier when I first went into it. I was like, organizing, it's easy. And that's that's a general perception, too, is people are like, this should be easy. I have ADHD, I'm good at almost everything I try. Why is this not easy? And it's because it's not easy, because there's so many different ways we have to learn how to work with ourselves instead of just making it look perfect. And that's why, like I and I love perfectionism. We all most of us do, but it's not about like buying the perfect bins and setting up a perfect pantry. While it looks really pretty, does it work for you? And does it make sense for you in your life? And truthfully, like I have a really nice pantry and I have bins and I have things, but it's also I have two kids and I have two dogs and I have a husband. Like it gets messy still, like it's still annoying. I have to go in and straighten things and I have to put things back, and like it's it is not, it doesn't always look like an Instagram picture because that's real life. Real life is messy. Real life is kids getting dirty and playing all over the place, and it's dogs with messy footprints coming into your house, and it's life is messy, and so organizing can be messy too, even if you have bins and all of that other stuff. It's just about giving yourself permission to do a little bit at a time, but it's our executive function, right? Like we we know what we want, we know what that end result looks like, yeah. But the idea of those little incremental things adding up to that is so mind-boggling to us that we don't even approach it because we're not great at executive function. So we're just like, well, we can either do it all right now or we do nothing at all. And and most of us are choosing nothing at all because it's exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah. And I there's a component to this too. And I don't there maybe it's that ego part of it where I'm I'm like I'm a grown man that should know the answer to this. And like anything that so I'm expecting myself to be able to just have an answer immediately. You have a question, I have the answer. So anytime there's something that makes me have to think, like, oh, I don't know the answer to that. Oh, I have to step back and like where would I look for this thing? Or what what do I do with this letter? Or anytime I have to stop and think, it's a there's a tension point to it for me of like, oh I'll deal with it later. So like if I can if I foresee any kind of thinking involved that is gonna make me feel stupid, I I run from it.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

I just wanted to share it. That's I I find this very fascinating. Because really, one take one thing, spend 30 seconds. Really, how long is it gonna take to think about the answer to a question? Maybe 10 seconds, 30, it just feels too long. And then put it put it where it goes. That's one more thing that's cleaned up. And if I can do that a little bit over time, shit is gonna get organized.

unknown 33:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

It has to.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Yes, it it and it does, but those decisions can feel so debilitating. And we're so good at procrastination, not because we want to procrastinate it, but part of this, I read this in a study the other day. They say that procrastination, like when you're saying, I'll deal with this later, it's almost like you're making a decision on it. So you can check it off your list. You're like, I have now helped this, I've done it, I'm gonna put it over here now.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

That's really you're actually just moving one thing to another place, and now you have to make a future decision on it. So part of it is saying, like, how can I make this uncomfortable decision, put myself in an uncomfortable position to make a full decision on this item? Because I did um I did an episode recently on like object permanence, and like um, I want to use something so that I can. Yeah, okay. So here is uh I have a bedazzled mouse.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

That's a pretty fancy bedazzled mouse.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

It's really, it's really pretty awesome. And this means more to me right now because I'm holding it and I'm like, oh, it'd be cool to use this. It would be really and I have it because what if I use it one day, right? So I have it just in case. Ask me the last time I used this.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Your mouse?

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Today, when you logged in on your computer.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

No, I don't use a mouse because um Wait, what? No, I don't use the mouse. I think I got it. I got it with the intentions of using it. Um, and then because I thought I needed it, but I've never used it.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Okay, so side note, what do you use to navigate your computer right now that we're talking about?

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Just the just the little trackpad, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

So, like old me would have looked at this and been like, oh my gosh, like what a cool thing. I'm now holding it. It's precious to me. I would love to put batteries in it and see if I'll use it. I'll put it right back where it was, and maybe one day it'll pop into my brain. But the thing is, is that it meant something to me in the moment because I was just holding it and I sparkle is my favorite color. So, like anything that bedazzles, like, yes, please, tell me that so it means something to me in the moment, but then guess what? If I put it right back into this drawer, it's out of sight, out of mind. Yeah, now, and I'm still gonna go back to the things that I do because I'm not in an uncomfortable position. I'm not uncomfortable what I'm doing. What I'm doing works right now. So I don't need a mouse. In fact, I had another mouse that I just gave to a friend of mine. So, like ultimately, I'm gonna we have friends, we have people coming to see our house today. I'm gonna keep this here, but I'm gonna go through this drawer and I'm gonna say, I don't, these aren't things that bring value to my life anymore. And if I needed a mouse, I could go out and buy another one, right? Like if I was in this uncomfortable position to the point that I felt like a mouse was in my future, it would be so easy because I think I'm pretty sure that I got that at like five, five below that super cheap store. And it was only like five dollars. So, like it's not like I'm it probably doesn't even work, Meg. It's I mean, likely that, and it's also it's not real time. It's like we're good, we're good. So it's just about making a full decision, but I could delay that decision. I could just say, like, not making a decision now, like, I'll keep that just in case, right? But now we've got all these just in cases all over the place crowding up our life we're living right now. And that doesn't fill up my life right now. So those are some of the decisions that I've learned to make in my own life. But I've found that everyone's a little bit different with like the way that they live their life. So it's about understanding where do I want to see myself? Like, how do I want to live my life? And for me, I want to have so much less. So that's why I come back to that. But for other people, maybe they do want to be prepared a little bit more, right? And then that's a part of them. Then how do we work in the letting go process with someone who does want a little bit more preparation? Because you don't have to change your life, you don't have to change like who you are internally and what your goals are. Oh, but there is some change involved there.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

This brings up a question, which is how do you deal with people that will not let go of anything? And maybe we don't take it to the level of hoarding where it's like, well, they need therapy and they need all that, but to the level of like it's very difficult for people that know they want to let go but can't let go. How do you how do you navigate that with people?

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Um, it's never happened with me working with someone because uh but also when someone comes to work with me, they genuinely just want to learn how to decided let go. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

But I would say, you know, some people just don't know that it's a possibility. Like I've worked in some people's homes where they're like, can you organize this? And I'm like, Yeah. Uh this is when I first started. I was like, let's organize it, make it pretty.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Um, but I would go in and they wouldn't be with me. So I would just be putting things in places. And then it was when I started doing that and seeing that, like, I don't even know how they live their life. How could I possibly put something in a place that you're gonna know how to find it? And then I was organizing chaos, right? Like, so I just started asking more questions. So, like when people would put a pause on something or they would be like, I'm not ready, or like this or that, I would just ask why. And I so I just go in really curious because I want to understand. I'm truly seeking to understand more. And so if you're telling me you're not ready to let go, I want to understand why. And so for some people, we say, like, you know, for someone who just lost their spouse, if you're not ready to even talk about that, then we're not gonna talk about that stuff, right? And so now we're just going to find a space to put that stuff, like for your sp when you're ready, you'll be ready and you'll know that you're ready. So I'm never gonna push that. But we are still gonna like collect everything in one area. But for like pens and paper clips and like all that other stuff, we are gonna figure it out and figure out like what's gonna elevate your life. But part of it is just understanding where do you want to be? Like, what does your future self want you to be? And how do you start to how do you start to pretend to be that person now so you can really get to that point?

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Yeah, that's really interesting. Um I the there's few things that I won't let go of just yet. There, but you're you're it's a it's the battling of the I should, I should get rid of this stuff. But then if I'm like, uh I I I don't want to right now, I think I have enough on my plate that I can go, okay, that's something to come back to next year, a year later. I don't know, whenever. But um there's other I mean, there I have bins, I have I decluttered the underneath there's this challenge going on right now where it's every day is something, right? So yeah uh yesterday it was my underneath my bathroom sink. Megs, I have I basically cleared all of it out. I had shit in there like medicines that expired in 2010. Yeah. So I've been basically taking them from place to place. Expired. Yeah, it's ridiculous. But it was so refreshing. I never would have gone and done that had I not had some external challenge or something going on. And um, I think that's why I'm such an advocate of that, anyways. Yes, you know what I mean? Can we can you talk about your because you uh you know I'm a freak for community, right? You know I'm a freak for accountability. Can you you have a community? So can you talk about it? Uh what are you guys doing there, what you're building, all that stuff?

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Totally, totally. So I'm really excited because I am moving my community from where I'm housed right now, which is just like my email or my platform that I house my website on, but I'm moving over to Circle. But what we do is we do um two body doublings every single month. And one of them is just like a come in, get your shit done type of body doubling. Um, like I went through a stack of papers that I had sitting there that I didn't want to do anything with. And so um, that is what I did in our last body doubling session. I think one of them I even fixed my sliding glass door because I was just like, now's the time. I'm gonna get this done. And I did it. It took me two minutes. We also do a group coaching session. So I teach a little bit, talk a little bit about something that's going on, something that I might be talking about on the podcast, and then we just ask questions, talk about what we're experiencing and walk, walk through some different scenarios. Um, and then we also have a body doubling decluttering session, which is really cool. And so we just work through letting go together. Yeah, I've done a couple of those in your community.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

And from there, I have a just talking to you while being able to talk to you while we're decluttering is a gift. Like so having that in your community is freaking amazing.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Thank you. Yeah, it's so it's like it's so cool because um, it's just so cool being in front of people. I think one of the coolest things that happened in the community when we first began was um, I have one client that I've been working with for months, like since last September, and another client who had literally just started with me like a week or prior. And my one client who had been working with me for so long, after we had talked, she was like, Oh my gosh, it's so fascinating to see how far I've come just seeing people where they're at, like just seeing that I have made progress. I actually have been doing shit, like I've been getting things done. But part of that is because our working memory isn't great. We forget what it used to be like, and now we're still stuck in this climbing the mountain process and we're on the mountain. We don't realize how far we've come because we can't see the beautiful view yet, you know?

SPEAKER_01 43:56

And yeah, we don't reflect as often as we should, right? We we're more often the voice in our head is like, let me just spend all day pointing out what's wrong right now. So like reflecting on how far we've come is it's this it's almost like a skill that needs to be practiced.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Yeah. Well, and that like also just having those different perspectives. Like you have this incredible human in your group who signed up for the class today. I'm so excited. I'm like, oh, she's so cool. But they had said something about um being a millionaire and like their perspective on just understanding where they were in the process. And it was fascinating to hear their perspective on just like, like, wow, I've made it so far. And we we have to look at things from a different point of view because sometimes we're so stuck in the stories that we've been telling ourselves that hearing someone else's story, especially someone with ADHD, that's looking at it from a different perspective helps us understand how far we've come and that we're on the right track and that we absolutely can do it. Like it's just so cool. Like, and that's that's part of my platform is like people with ADHD can be organized, but it's about like being around other people with ADHD who also want to be organized, right? And developing some of the things where you're actually taking action towards it and and not just doing the research because like all the information is out there. You just collect all the information. Oh man, you're preaching to the choir on that one.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Yes, yeah, big time. Isn't that so interesting? Like, like everybody has all the information, uh you can Google everything and have all of it, but it's not going to declutter your house for you. Totally. There at some point, there has to be action involved, and uh, yeah. So I'm I didn't mean to interrupt, I just no, it's perfect, it's perfect, but like so support that thought.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Yeah, like community is just it's so it's so amazing, and like the fact that body doublings help us get stuff done, it's incredible. And like, I mean, I have learned so much from your community, from my own community, from just understanding that other people's brains work like mine.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

So, what is happening in uh the organizing and ADHD brain community? How can people where do people go? What do people do? Um, give me all the deets, and then we'll put it in the show notes. Obviously. Cool. Obviously, it'll be in the show notes. Oh, and then you know what? You are gonna do a wait, I gotta interrupt real quick. You're doing a body doubling session. Uh, people will be able to join this one because it's this is gonna come out, it'll be the week that this comes out, right? Yes, it's next.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Oh yeah. Hold on, let me open it on the calendar and we can like actually tell people what it is. Uh let's see here. Okay, so next Thursday, the 17th, or this Thursday, the 17th, because that's when this podcast is being released. It's from 11 a.m. to 12 p.m. mountain time, and that's what 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. eastern time.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Yep, and then that is 10 a.m.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

to 11 a.m. California time. Pacific, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

When is it in California? I don't do the math.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

You guys have your own rules over there.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

We do things the way we want to do them in California.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Yeah, I like that. Cool. Um, and and I'll have more information about the community. So, right now I'm going to halt membership signups because I'm transitioning to Circle. So I would say the best way to stay in touch is go to my website, organizing an ADHDbrain.com, and click on the dopamine menu. So I have a free downloadable dopamine menu that you can fill out. And it's super cool because it helps you get motivated to do things and you have a menu to choose from of all the fun things that you love to do. From there, um, you'll just be on my my email list and I'll send out all the information, all the things that are happening.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

So that's brilliant. Everyone should go and join your community when it's fired up. I love Circle. Circle is the greatest platform ever.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

I'm so excited. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

You're gonna love it. It's cool. You're gonna love admining on that platform.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Good, because I hate admining on the current one I'm on. It's so annoying. So I'm really pumped. I'm pumped to learn something new and awesome. Yeah, it's gonna be a good place.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Megs, thanks for coming back again.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Yeah, we love you so much. Thank you for helping us. I just can I just plug your community to like join mine, but also join Russ's. And like, I truly feel like join both, join join none, but join one. Uh but seriously, because I I have had so much fun. I have met friends in your group just by hosting things and like meeting people and gaining new experiences and and answering questions. It has been so cool to see what you've done. And it's just like the words that you use, you show up authentically. Like people are there because of you, because you have truly embraced who you are. I know we're all always working on ourselves, but it's so cool to see all the things that you're doing constantly to support other people because it not only supports you, but it supports everyone else getting stuff done. It's fascinating. Like, I just I love seeing the momentum and what you're doing is fantastic because it's not just about organizing, it's about so much more than that.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

So, yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

And I love these declutter sessions. This this month I'm totally geeking out over the decluttering, so I'm so stoked for uh next for this coming Thursday as this comes out.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

Cool, yes, thank you, Mags.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

I appreciate you so much. Thanks, Ross. We will talk to you soon. Brilliant, Megs Crawford, everybody. Heck of a guest. Love having her on the show. She's great. Uh she and she's moving her community to Circle, which is the same platform that I host my community on, and it is just an amazing community-building service. So this is a reminder to check out the show notes, get access to Meg's dopamine menu, sign up for her community when she makes it active, and to come to our decluttering event. And also, I'll put a link to the workshop that she did in our community. Uh, you can so sharing some organizational concepts so the replay will live in that public space for a little while or or forever, depending on if I remember to do anything with it. But you can always reach out to Meg's uh for access to it as well. And that's it. I hope you guys have a fantastic week. As always, reach out if you have any questions, comments, concerns. And with that, I hope you have a fantastic week, and I shall talk to you later.