E38: Feeling Trapped, Suffocated and Fearing Losing Yourself with Relationship OCD (ROCD)

Do you feel the urge to pull away when your partner gets closer because you feel suffocated, trapped, or fear losing yourself? If so, listen to today's episode where we break down the common reasons why we feel this way, where it comes from, and how to be at peace in the relationship without feeling like you need to escape. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the For Love We Hill podcast. Uh Grace is with me today. You weren't with me last time, Grace.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

I was not. I had freaking. I had COVID. Ugh. Who gets COVID anymore?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Apparently everybody.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Apparently me and everybody else. Yeah, it's it's on the rise. So yeah, thanks for going solo, but I'm back.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

You were knocked out pretty good, hey?

SPEAKER_03 0:26

I was for a week, like a full week. I was I was really sick. So yeah, I'm still got some congestion, but I'm uh I'm coming back.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Glad to have you back. Glad to have you back. You're feeling better. Thanks. Yeah, and what are we doing today? What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Yeah, so today we are gonna talk about a really common experience for those with relationship anxiety or ROCD. And that is this feeling of feeling trapped, feeling some people say feeling suffocated, feeling like they can't escape. Um, it's a really dark, scary, constricted place to be. And really often, I would say most of the time, when my clients express this and when I had this feeling, they are with a partner who is not objectively pressuring them, you know, keeping them trapped in any way, right? Like, like they have a partner again who is who's relatively healthy, even securely attached, and not doing that. So their question to me is always, um, why? Why do I feel this way? Um, and even though my partner is is great and is not pressuring me and not making me feel, not trying to make me feel this way. Um, so yeah, that's what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yep. Okay. Yeah. So it's the experience, as you're saying, uh of really what it is, is that's these, um it's the it's this um emotional flashback, which is a remembering either somatically or uh implicitly of uh or in anticipation of the feeling of being smothered in some way, being trapped emotionally or physically in a situation where you kind of lost yourself and your your ability to establish a distinct identity of authenticity, right? Of where you might be would commonly felt smothered by the emotional needs of a parent, yes, where you felt responsible for your parents' emotional well-being, where they leaned on you for emotional support, and where you really had to give up your autonomy to caretake and show up for the parent, right? And we talked a lot about this in our in our episode of parentification. There's a role a role reversal where you took on the the responsibility to show up for the parent because the parent was emotionally immature, so they were operating from their child self, and because you're the kid and because you need the parent, you will learn and find ways to adapt to the environment to feel safe. And right, so you then obviously you learned very quickly that you were looked upon as a caretaker, uh, or to fulfill some emotional need of the parent for closeness, for to s save them from their loneliness, to give them a sense of supply, right? So which is you know uh of helping them feel fulfilled, of helping them feel uh whatever it is, right? I never I just completely went on a rant there. So right, so so what we do we we have we have this experience of getting into a relationship, and any relationship will activate this, and you know, um even I mean sometimes like you know, we'll we will get with partners, even people with RCD, it's not always emotionally healthy. You know, there there can be so like you know, like my partner, you know, in the past more so, but even to this day has signs of like has parts that are anxiously attached, which want something from me, right? Which understandably in a in a relationship we do, but she will have parts even that operate from a space of lacking love from her childhood, so she will look to me for closeness and proximity for her safety, right? And for her sense of feeling fulfilled. And then I will then, as a as a personal example, I will then interpret that as a it will feel violating to me. It will feel like, what do you want from me? You know, I don't want to give something to you because I spent a childhood of overgiving emotionally to a mother and not receiving any emotional care. And that's right. So I'll pause, but would you want to add to that, Grace?

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Yeah, I mean, I think that is absolutely spot on. What comes up for me now as I hear you talk about this, um, that I want to share is that cognitively, this might not feel, and it might, it might feel immediately connected to what's happening with you and your partner, but it might not. You might be thinking, and I say this because for me, when I first heard about parentification and and like the connection with ROCD, I didn't really believe it. Like cognitively, I was like, what does my relationship with my parents have anything to do with my partner? I don't feel the same way. That's and I just kind of tossed it away. So if you're having that thought, I would just, if if you have parts coming up like this isn't related, it's gotta be my partner, that's okay if you're having that come up. Just leave your heart open a little bit, like Alex says, for the that part for the curiosity around what we're saying, if you can access that. Because I can tell you that in my experience, I didn't cognitively connect my experience as, you know, parentification, role reversal, and my relationship anxiety. And when I started to heal the parts of me that had to be a parent as a kid, right? That had to hold so much as a kid, my ROCD magically, not so magically, right? But but started to quiet down. The more I differentiated from my parents, the more I learned emotional boundaries from other people too. I'm talking work, friends. The more I learned that, the more open my heart became to my partner, the less suffocated I felt by my partner. What's happening for most of you, likely, right? Very likely, I would venture to say, is that you're having the somatic and emotional response in your relationship of feeling trapped, but it actually has nothing to do with how your parent your partner is functioning. Now, I'll put a caveat on that. What Alex just described, right? Like if your partner has anxious tendencies, that doesn't mean, by the way, that doesn't mean you cannot make things work. I wanna, yeah, I want to add a little bit of reassurance there for some people's parts. But if if your partner has anxious parts present, it might be exacerbating, like for Alex, that feeling. I always say this like, it's not gonna help because if it would have helped, it would have already, right? Like many of you have spent many, many, many hours thinking about this. Get a little curious about where else in my life, in my history, in my childhood, was I carrying someone else emotionally? Was I feeling like I had to perform a certain way to receive the attention I wanted? Those are the questions you want to ask yourself because likely your body and your nervous system and your mind are burnt out from that. And that's why you're feeling like you don't have capacity to connect.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

That's right. Nice nailed it. You nailed it.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

All right, Alex and I are both tired today, I think. So we're we're we're here, we're here for you. But if you if either of us are rambling, and we're probably over apologizing, Alex, because you sounded great to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

So oh, really? I think right. I mean, yeah, we both complete garbage there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

But uh I'm hearing myself in a much different way than probably many of you guys are uh listening to me. So uh yeah, we're tired. I got a baby on the way any day now, so I've got all any day now, you know, my own anxieties, my own, you know, attachment wounding. So it's okay though. Uh that's why we're here doing this stuff because it's work.

SPEAKER_04 9:29

That's right. We have to face it.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

So um, right, so the results. So so we like take try this, try this on because I can imagine many. I mean, it wasn't until two years ago that I really understood this on a deep level.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

That's about the time for me, too. Two years ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

And I've been working with this for a while, like, and I've been guiding clients through this for a while, and it wasn't until number one, I saw the patterns in my clients that came up again and again and again and again where I understood what this was rooted in, which is emotional on emotionally immature parents and uh uh to to the uh to the extreme of narcissism, but also too, it was through um through uh understand and then me then that forcing me to then reflect in my situation, then me analyzing because for a while there I just thought like you know, I knew my par my parents weren't perfect, right? But yeah, as my most of us do, we realize they're not perfect, but I didn't understand the complexities of the dynamic of the emotional immaturity and how that was playing into my fear of vulnerability and connection and engulfment and and uh being trapped, being smothered and all that stuff, right? Yeah, I didn't realize that I that me not trusting myself was a direct was in direct correlation to me feeling like I had to sacrifice my authenticity and my autonomy and to show up in a way that was acceptable acceptable for one of my parents, which my mother, in order to have her feel a certain way, in order for her to feel okay, and that I had to kind of disconnect from who I really was in an attempt to show up in a particular way to where she was, uh, and to where I was accepted. So and I think that many of you underneath the surface, you'll be able to connect to this reality. Now, what what happens, right? So uh let me see what I have here. I've got notes written down. Um so what can happen is, and this I see this theme too, we cut we get caught in fawning, right? So which is fawning is like people pleasing, accommodating, showing up, saying yes, afraid of saying no, feeling like we need to be there for others in the way that they need at the cost of what we want. And you know what happens there is a polarization develops, a psychological polarization develops between people pleasing and fawning parts, and an intense desire for independence and not wanting to sacrifice our needs for the other person. Because we do this and we've learned that we needed to do this as a kid, we experience self-betrayal, right? So we betray ourselves and we needed to. I mean, we our parents betrayed us because they leaned on us, and then we betray ourselves to show up for the parent because we learn that our connection and love becomes dependent on showing up for the parent. We then betray ourselves. So, what then happens is is um we giving, even giving of being generosity feels like a violation. Like you know, avoidantly attached individuals are always labeled as selfish, but I always correct that by saying we're self-preserving, we don't want to give because it feels violating to us because we gave, we gave, we gave, we gave, we gave, and we never got. And it feels like if we give again, we're gonna continue to feel that same pain of feeling like we're not taking care of and we're not supported. So we learn to take care of our own needs. Looks like you have something to say about that.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

That's right. Well, I do. I mean, I this shows up. Well, first I want to touch on what you said about like people say avoidant is selfish. Those of you, again, listen to the parentification episode if you're curious about this. But like those of you whose family was like, We're family. Family shows up for family, family does it for family, or you have maybe you had a friend. I actually had double whammy. I had parentification and then I had early relationships as a child in like elementary school, where my friends were like, I'm a friend. Friends do anything for each other. You will go do this. I had a really controlling friend that I've done a lot of work in with coaches and therapists on because it was like my first friendship was like, you better do this, or else I am giving you the silent treatment, or else I'm gonna physically abuse you, or I'm gonna whatever, you know. And and so I had that going on at the same time personally. So it doesn't, you know, it doesn't only have to be caregivers. Usually that's involved in some way. Um, but there's, you know, and and so there's shame that comes with choosing yourself from an early age. There's shame that that gets put on you for not for saying no to someone when they want something from you. And so you go your whole life, years. I mean, my clients like a lot of them don't discover this until their late 20s, early 30s. And they're like, wait, I've been doing this. I've been people pleasing, I've been saying yes to avoid the discomfort of their disappointment, right? Like to be safe in connection, right? I've I've said yes. And and the thing, and then you know, you might start to experiment with boundaries and you might get similar feedback from people, not everybody, but from some people. And then the shame layers on, and that can make this, that can make you feel even more trapped. Like, oh my God, what am I supposed to do? When I honor myself, I I feel I get hurt. And when I don't honor myself, I get hurt. So what do I do? And so I just want to call that out that like the shame of this adds a layer, um, and and and makes it and makes it really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah. Um let's make this tangible. This is perfect. You're you're you're keeping me like I feel like, and I'm I could be I could be completely wrong, but I feel like I'm talking, and that's probably because I'm somewhat dissociated right now, but I'm talking, but I'm not connecting to what I'm saying. So I feel like I'm not it's not like landing internally for me in terms of it's making sense.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

So yeah, that's interesting. I I love that. Yes, oh, it's making so much sense. But the reason I love that you that you said that is like I don't know, I just like I think that our listeners and the feedback we get on this podcast, like they're like, we love when you are real with us and we we love when you share your real experience. So like when Alex and I show up and we're dissociated, or one of my parts needs to be worked with like two weeks ago, right? Like we we're gonna we're gonna bring it here. So yeah, no, you're making total sense. Okay and I am happy to um yeah, I'm happy to jump in and connect with with the with what I've got going.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yeah, yeah. And I think too, it's worth naming. Like before I, you know, when I when I was like a couple of years ago, I'd be on social media, I'd be like, I gotta be real, so I'm gonna like go full blown into what you know. I I I also want to let people know, like, I'm good, like I'm like this. So and but I think it is like for me important to name it because you know, if especially with clients, sometimes like I don't make it about me, but I will share, I will share, I will self-disclose in a way that says, hey, listen, if you feel like something's off about me today, like this is very good for you know to do with clients. If it feels like something's off with me today, if it feels like I'm not fully with you, just know I'm okay, and you don't have to this isn't your job. I just want to let you know if you feel because we feel each other's energies, and right, especially for a therapist client experience, like the client needs to feel safe and secure with the therapist.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

So sometimes that material needs to be named in order for people to so yeah, totally well, and it and our clients are like connecting that to this topic, like of course, like directly. Our clients are often the people-pleasing type, and they want to please even us, me as a practitioner. They want to keep me comfortable. And so part of my role as a practitioner is to model a secure relationship, is to model, I can take care of myself. Yeah, don't worry about me. I'm really interested in talking about you, you know, like let's not like redirecting their their attention. Yeah. So I think that's great. I think we I'm glad that we're bringing it all here. And and you know, for those of us with these wounds, like you have, and you are going through a huge life transition, as you said, you're you're like literally pins and needles waiting for this baby.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

This world. Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

And and we're talking about some of your core stuff. So there's no wonder your dissociative parts are like, no, you know, we're not gonna feel this today. You can talk about it if you want.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

That's a good feeling. Um, right, you know, like nice for people that are listening, like those of us who grew up in these child these home environments, which again, Grace and I weren't weren't fully aware of until like a couple of years ago, right? Right. But we have experienced a complete lack of control and a complete set felt sense of helplessness. Because if love is conditional, if you were there had to be there for a parent, if you weren't a supported in all of your emotions, and if your emotions were dismissed because it went up against the uh the the needs of the care of the caregiver. We it's shocking. It's shocking to the system. So, you know, when things like this is why this is why any ch change or transition, I mean, many of you, your ROCD will have surfaced during a period of transition. I don't mind it. Mine mine surfaced with my current partner, Dion, when I moved across the country to go to to change up, fully change my career and live in a different place and doing long distance relationship and everything. I mean, it doesn't always hit in that way, but a lot of people express that, hey, yeah, uh something changed, uh, we got engaged, uh, we moved, whatever happened, we hit. And generally, it's because we feel can out of control, we feel like we start to feel helpless, right? And yeah, and our mind then we start to feel anxious, and then our mind grabs on to something as a way to gain control over our situation, and you know, uh blah blah blah. But uh okay, I want to get back a little bit. So I want to give something people tangible because my experience now with my anxiety and stuff uh is in direct correlation to the childhood environment, which is the same as what people experience with ROCD, but let's give something tangible right now. Uh now you were saying the tangible piece. What was the tangible piece?

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Yeah, yeah. Well, I actually do have one. Um, I'll insert I'll I'll um I hope this is this is on topic enough. I think it is. So what this might feel like and the feelings, right? The emotions. Oh, you got it. Good, good, good. Okay, you go first then.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, okay. So that if you can't connect your childhood experience directly, connect to the immediate experience. Like about think about setting a boundary with somebody. Like, think about think about your parents for a second. Um you can do this, Grace, and I can do this. Okay, but for our uh listeners, I want you to think about something for a second. Think about something that your parent does, one of your parents or both, um that they do that that either significantly irritates you or just somewhat irritates you. Or and then think about how. Them that it irritates you and then see what comes up. Now, in a secure situation with a parent with unconditional love, if your parent does something that irritates you, you feel completely comfortable saying, I didn't like that. Because you grew up as we do with our kid. We grew up. Our kid can say, I don't like that, and we fully say, That makes so much sense. What about that? Don't you like? And they can he can tell us freely, no problem, no, no resistance to that. No, yeah, oh, you're too sensitive, or I didn't say it that way, or any denial, or no anger, or anything.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

Yeah, right. Or you don't feel like you somehow hurt them in a fundamental way. That's what it was for me, is that their hurt, their hurt feelings, they would express that I hurt them by that kind of thing. And and that's even my parts are literally coming up now, and I want to say it because in case other people's are defend like in their defense, like, well, but like how else would you teach a kid that you don't hurt people's feelings? Like, how else would you communicate that? Like, you can see my skin is red. You see this? And and it's I it's interesting to me now because I and again to our listeners, I'm total, I'm fully in control, right? But I'm but I like to notice this because then I know when a part is getting activated. And then I can slow down for a minute and be like, oh, interesting. What are you afraid of? And this part for me is like um, is like, well, they, you know, they were just they were doing their best, and they you you were a really emotional kid, and you, you know, you did hurt their feelings. Like I'm remembering a specific instance where I called one of them annoying, and I was maybe five years old, and I was like, You're being annoying. And I was given the silent treatment by my parent for two days.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Two days, yeah. No.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

And and my I remember, um, and my parts are like, don't give any, like, don't give any like details that would still, you know. So I I I will honor that from this part coming up. I won't give like like specifics on who it was or what, but but that kind of situation taught me really and explicitly, like, you it is not safe. You disconnection happens if you express how you feel about something that's happening. And and this part is like, well, you could have said, you could have said that you don't like that. Why did you have to say annoyed? Of course you hurt their feelings. No, I was five years old, y'all. Like, no, you're learning. And and Alex, I want to, yeah, definitely want to hear from you because you are a parent on like, you know, what is what is what else? Because maybe people's parts like mine come up and that are like, well, what else would you do as a parent in that situation? What's a secure example of that? That just seems normal. Yeah, so I'd love to hear your thought on that.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

So anything, and we've talked about any this this could be debated, I think, but I think it's a I think it's a very clear-cut example. Anything abuse is anything less than nurturing.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

Right, we've talked about that this before.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So based on that sentence, I'm abusing my kid all the time. Not intentionally, I mean the parents don't usually intentionally do it, but um like my kid is experiencing relational violations just as all kids do all the time. And that's that sounds terrible for me to say. But for example, like um, you know, like if my like, I mean, just earlier, like my kid just got a soft like sword from the dollar store, right? He it's like just this foam sword, and he smacks me with it, right? And it fucking hurts sometimes, you know. And I'm like, Oh my god, he's so funny. So I yeah, you know, like it's so, but he's just like it's soft, it doesn't hurt, like he doesn't put two and two together, but and it doesn't hurt really that bad, but it stings sometimes, and when he hits me, I have a reaction to it, I get angry, right? So I lose my sense of self and I go, Don't do that, like that hurts, and I'll raise my voice. So this is a very minor example, but what he then experienced is I'm losing love. Uh my dad is mad with it.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

He's mad, he doesn't like me right now.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Now he will laugh, and then I will then subtly experience his laugh as disrespectful.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

So that's what I felt immediately. No, I felt that. I was like, that's how I would feel in that in that situation, even though you know it's your kid, you know all this stuff cognitively, you still have parts that are gonna react.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

You know, you fucker. You go sit, you know, and and and then so what what I have to do, and this is my practice. First of all, he laughs because he feels shame.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Right. It's a release of uh yeah, it often happens in shame.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

He experienced that with the sword because he's playing as he's supposed to, and he's he's looking for rough and tumble play, which children need, particularly from fathers, because fathers are the more so that's developmentally appropriate. Right. He can't regulate, he doesn't have the prefrontal cortex to be able to say, Oh, okay, if I hit at this level of strength versus this level of strength, it's gonna hurt or not hurt. He can't do that, he doesn't have the capacity to do that, so he doesn't know his own strength, so he hits because he's supposed to, and I react, and he laughs because he feels bad.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

It's embarrassment too, like with shame. I laugh when I'm embarrassed too.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, so then but then I take it as he's being disrespectful, and then I get angrier, and then he feels more shame, and then he runs away and he laughs and hides. But oh yeah. So what immediately what I try to do most of the time is I go to him and say, Listen, you didn't do anything wrong. Mommy and daddy love you no matter what. It's repair, yeah. I say we say you never have to worry about us not loving you. We love you no matter what. It's okay, you didn't mean to, it's fine. Uh-huh. And he's still laughing, kind of, because he's still feeling shame. It takes his system to come down, and then within 30 to 60 seconds, as we stay there, whatever, he comes back and it's all normal again. There's nothing else. It's we're back in connection, we're playing again, we're smiling, we're enjoying each other. But this is what happens with the emotionally unavailable parents, they react, you're disrespecting me, and then the silent treatment ensues, or why do you do that?

SPEAKER_03 29:23

Go to your room or yelling or a punishment, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

And the shame stays, and there's no repair, and the kid feels bad, and then either the behaviors start to reduce because there's too much shame, or the behaviors exacerbate, and there's more uh what right, it could be either one, uh, you know, uh, and it's all because of shame. So you're gonna be the emotion. What are you feeling right now?

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Because I'm I'm like, yeah, I mean, I have always wondered, I have a little sister, and she's seven years younger than me, so I remember a lot of her childhood, and we just were such different kids. We we had the same parents, but we really diverged. And what is really interesting about this, and I hope this is relevant, it feels relevant, is that I went people-pleasing, caregiver, like do everything for everybody. She went rebellious.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah, she went.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

She was like, fuck all of you. I don't get like I'm gonna do what the fuck I want. She had tantrums until literally until I don't think she would mind me saying this, but she had tantrums until like after her high school, really, like just really like explosive and really, and I was like, I never drank, I never did a drugs, I was home before curfew, I never was grounded. I was like, she was like pushing boundaries, not listening to the like and and what's interesting, I've always been like, that's so weird. Like, why didn't she get the parentification? She did. I'm sure she did. It just for her, she went the different way. Like you just said, you either go with that shame, you either go, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna control everything, I'm gonna fix everything, or you rebel. Or you or you do both.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

So and then and then children get labeled as oppositionally defiant.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Right. O D.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yes. When really reacting to the environment. Now, how do we tie this in with what we're saying here? Yeah, what I'm saying is think about setting boundaries, think about saying no to people. What comes up for you when you tell your parent, if you're just imagine you don't have to do this actually, and in some cases it might not be safe to do so. Think about what comes up for you if you were to say to your parent, that hurt me what you said, or I don't want you to be there on Sunday, or I don't want to go shopping with you, or I don't want you, I don't want to spend the evening with you having drinks, or whatever. Because the the emotionally unavail or the emotionally in uh what is it emotionally immature parent will likely, unless they have a new uh source of supply from somebody else, whether that's a sibling or somebody else in their life that they are getting that from, feeding. I mean, this sounds sinister, but in the way they are feeding, they're using you or somebody else as a sort of a feeding supply to feed their emotional void that was left behind in their childhood. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

So so what happens is is we feel it's like it's like we're uh I mean this is this is a sinister imagery coming through, but you're like you're like um you're you're like wrapped in like the spiders, like kind of like you know, you're yeah you're and and I yeah, I like that you're saying like yeah, it sounds sinister, obviously, and and it is right, it is because it's damaging, but it isn't usually right, for those of you who have parts coming up wanting to defend your parents, first of all, that's normal. That's yeah that that happens, but but it's it is not like they're sitting there thinking I'm going to suck all the energy or the whatever out of my child. It's unconscious for them. But and that doesn't mean that it is happening, that it's not happening and that it's not damaging, right? Like, even if they're not consciously thinking of it. So I love what you're saying about setting some boundaries and think just just like ask yourself this question right now like, how often do you do something for them or with them when you didn't really want to? But you're so in this pattern, you're still like, okay, all right, this is just what I do.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

And I'm talking about even I'll just I'll adapt what I say in a way that lands for them in a way where that's right so that they don't get upset, where you're starting speaking your truth, but you're doing it in a way that softens it, that doesn't allow you to really articulate in the way you need to. That's right. You try to tiptoe and walk on eggshells in an attempt to make sure that they're okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Which it's so exhausting, yeah, and it takes so much mental energy and emotional energy to do this. Sorry, my cat is going crazy. Get out of here. I don't have to parent you like a child. You're a cat. Poor thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

She's like, Hell oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Uh she's gonna come back.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

I know, like, like what my cats.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

I know we talked about our cats before. Oh, you fucking you're like, I hate you, but you're like, wait, come over to my lap. I love you. Yeah, cats. Anyway, we digress, but cats are hilarious. Yeah, it's it's you know, and and because for me, this was draining my mental energy and exhausting me in ways that I didn't realize until I started to try something different. I started to set some boundaries, I started to do things differently. And then I think I talked about this a couple podcasts ago, but I used to I used to really need naps all the time, like constantly, even before my ROCD symptoms really hit. Like I was just so tired all the time. And I had doctor's appointments, I had blood tests, I had all kinds of things, and like they never really found anything. And I'm telling you, that didn't start to shift until I started to there is so much unconscious energy, yes, that you're putting in to serving everybody else all the time when you're in this pattern. And it's and something that my therapist at the time did that really helped me was first she talked like you did about like what are some boundaries you can experiment with? You know, it's gonna be difficult, but like how can you start to say no to your parents? There's also like it's just kind of if that feels too activating for your parts, I don't want you to give up and not do anything, right? What is what can you, what is just uncomfortable enough that you can do it, right? Maybe it's not with your parents right away. Maybe it's with work, maybe it's with a friend. Practicing the pattern of like tuning in or your partner tuning in and being like, do I really want to do this right now? I don't. Okay, no. Right? Like, like just or your partner. So bringing this back around to that suffocation of your partner, right? For me, it would come up in like he would text me before we lived together, really, like, how's your day going? And I'd be like, I would feel that like, I have to answer. I don't want to answer, I don't want to engage with this right now. I don't know. When like he is just my partner is secure, securely attached. And he just wants he just was like, This is my girlfriend, we haven't talked today. I'm just checking in. But for me, it's he expects me to respond. He's asking me because he wants me to ask him how his day is. I have X amount of minutes to respond, or I'm a bad person. I mean, just so much weight.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

That's just funny. Which is also your experience that you're now putting on relationships because that's what you grew up with and expected that. Oh no, now that he texts me, I have a certain time to respond. There's expectations here. I have to say it a certain way, I have to show up in a certain way, or else I'm gonna disappoint them, or they're gonna be mad at me, or whatever. So there's all these unconscious expectations that we have on communication and connection that are rooted in our childhood, right? And the interesting thing is that some of you, the reason why some of you, if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm kind of feeling this, like I'm kind of getting what you're saying, but I can't really grasp it. It's because we have dissociative parts of us that actually dissociated away this reality so that again we could stay in connection with our caregivers. Because if we knew what the dynamic that was happening, I mean, also, too, we just don't have any perspective other than what we lived in. But two, if you notice yourself blanking out, or if you notice yourself fogging over, or whatever as you're listening to this, what happens is we have dissociative parts that say, Oh, we're gonna keep you in the illusion that you need to be there in a certain way so that you don't disappoint your parents, so that you don't get rejected, so that whatever it is. So the dissociative parts come in to kind of keep the veil over all this stuff to shield you from the knowledge so that you can stay connected. What's right associative parts often don't realize is that you're a lot older now and you're not a kid anymore, so they need to be updated, right? They need to be updated. If the whole system knew you were an adult, it would be a different way of relating to your parents because we're just another person now. Like at what when we're adults, the reality is like you'll hear like from narcissistic or emotionally uh immature people, we're family, and families everything, and and whatever. The reality is as an adult, your parents are just other adults. That's that's right. Yeah, they're not any different than than that. As kids, you're obviously dependent on them, and they're the most important thing in the world to you because you need them. As adults, they're nothing more than than than it than uh than another uh adult. Um, but the real what what also is if they were secure growing up, they are the most important thing to you, but that's from an unconditional place of love.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

That's from overflow, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Right? So to you, to you, like the fact that they're all only just another adult, that's in the case from your perspective, you don't owe them anything. Like you don't owe anyone anything at all. You don't owe them anything. But an emotionally immature parent still expects that you owe them something, that they brought you into this world, that you're their parent, that that you have their only grandchild or something, that there's an entitlement to you, and that's not real. That's a story that they tell that they tell the story that they've told you internalized. But they're actually no, they're just another adult in your world, and you have come full autonomy and choice over what you want and what you don't want. Now, if you have an unconditionally loving parent that has no expectations and no entitlement, you just want to be with them because they're the best thing in the world to you. They're like super important to you, and you feel full full, but you feel full on your own because you were raised on that by them. But it feels really good to be in connection because there's you just there's just space for you, all of you, you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

Right. You know that if you make a mistake in their eyes, you know, if you if if they are in distress, it's not your responsibility. You can help if you want to from overflow, but it's not like you help or else. Um, I mean, there's just all these things. And I think, like you said, when it's the water you're swimming in as a kid, like when this is what you grew up in, it's hard to imagine a different reality. And that's where ideal parent figure is really helpful. And so Alex has why don't Alex talk a little bit about ideal parent figure and like how you would yeah, how how people can start to, if they're not seeing a therapist or a practitioner who is well versed in this stuff, and we'll talk about ways that we can support you. Um we've got we've got some options for you. But if they don't have that, and right now today they're like, what can I like? How can I start experimenting with this? Um, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Okay, so I'll talk a little bit about it. But if you don't know, I have two episodes on the podcast. I think it's episode 35 and 36, one with music and one without music. It's a guided ideal parent figure imagery practice that you can listen to. Um, and uh if you all also don't know, uh I have uh we have a uh a course and community that uh where all the you'll learn how to do this. Like all the practices are in there. It's a 12-hour course, understand RSD completely, but also you get access to the practices and the inner work and bi-weekly support groups, which are live and interactive with both me and and Grace when Grace pops in, um, as well as a private Facebook community where uh where we're where we're there, um and and access to uh weekly inner work pairings where we actually you'll learn the practices of how to do parts work and ideal parent figure imagery, and then you're given a resource sheet and you're paired weekly, you have the option to you can fill out a form and uh put your contact in, and you'll have the option to be paired up with someone else in the community weekly where you can actually practice this with one another. So it's kind of the next best thing, other than therapy, um, for 37 bucks a month, right? So um, so I'd invite you to join that. Uh, that's uh we our numbers are growing. I think we're like maybe at 30 people now in the community.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Yeah, I think that's about right.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yeah, group is more active, and I mean we get uh an average of seven or eight people in the support groups now every every two weeks.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

So and the next support group is in a one week from today. So if you join before next Thursday, you'll get to join that support group call.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yes, and that one is actually. Uh so the second Thursday is 9 a.m. Eastern, and the fourth Thursday is 4 p.m. Eastern. So uh and Grace, you'll be doing that one because I'll probably have a next two.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

I'll be yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

I'll have a baby baby. Uh uh so yeah, so um so join that. Uh we'd love to have you in the community. 37 bucks a month. You can cancel any time, so come in. You know, I think I think I don't know. I'm gonna sell, I'm gonna try and sell it a little bit more because uh, you know, uh I'll just I'll just name that this is a sales pitch, but it's like three coffees, you know, three Starbucks coffees. I mean, you know, like it's so cheap that and you and I I just see people getting so much from it. Like the people that have been in the support group since we went since we started the community like a few weeks ago, um people are really night and day different showing up.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Yeah, there's already some really big shifts that we're seeing, and and you know, there's real even if you're seeing a therapist through insurance, there's nothing that's 30 37 months. And and and you know, I want to caveat that like this isn't a replacement for one-on-one work, which is why it's$37 a month, right? Like you're you're getting a lot for that. And like if you are really struggling and you really, you know, you don't you you want to dive deeper into this one-on-one work with a practitioner or a therapist who really gets it. That's kind of the difference here is like you really need to work with someone who like really understands these patterns, attachment, parentification, ROCD. If you're if you're someone who has it, it's imperative. Alex and I say this all the time to find someone. Um, so you can email, um, you can email for Love We Heal to get on our. I believe we have a little bit of a wait list right now, but we'll have a yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

No, we don't have a waiting list because I don't.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Oh, good. That's right. Oh, good, good, good. Okay, so yeah, so you can if you're interested in one-on-one work, that's an option too, and you can check that out. But I mean, there we have a a couple people who are doing both, who are doing the because they like the community.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

So if you want to do one-to-one work, we've got you. And actually, most people on the team have had ROCD. So, like you have and um uh uh God, why can't I think of her name? Here she's Marianne, Liz, Marianne and Liz uh on the team have also had RCD. Um uh yeah, so you're in good hands. So click the link uh and fill out a form to get in touch with us for that. So, anyway, that's the sales pitch. Now, let's talk about ideal parent figure imagery. Why is that important? Because what we do is we use our imagination to evoke uh two sets of imagined parents who embody qualities of unconditional love and acceptance to where you feel absolutely safe and secure, valued and appreciated, um, where you don't have to worry about what's going on for the parent. There's qualities that we evoke through imagination, which we all know what we need deep down. We all know what we needed. It's there, it's still there. Yeah, you know, our unconscious is still calling for it. So through using active imagination and evoking uh imagery that brings forward these qualities, what we do is we internalize the love and support from these caregivers, which then becomes our new uh attachment template. So through repeated engagement with ideal parent figures who embody these secure qualities, our system adopts this new pattern of relating. Right. So right, more trust, more love, more connection and safety. It feels better, it feels good. Um and that and that translates to being more securely. I have a little sheet here that right, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

Um and there's there's podcasts that you've recorded, one with music and one without music, that you can try it on your own. And for me, I just want to say about it real quick like it what it did for me is it shows my body what that feels like. Yeah, it like what it feels like to because for many of you, as we've been talking in this episode, you might be like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, I don't know how it would feel to be able to just say no to my parents whenever I want, to feel like to feel like giving from overflow. That was my biggest thing. I was like, what is giving from overflow feel like? I have no idea what that feels like. And this gives your body through the visualization what that might feel like. And so you can kind of know and be like, oh, interesting. It would feel like this. Well, this is not how I feel in my life. So that's another, it gives you, like you said, a template for like, oh, this is what it could be like.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

It gives you a template at first of what it could be like, and then it becomes what it is. You become securely attached, so it becomes the primary, what we would call the primary working model from which you're operating in the world. So that so with repeated engagement with the imagery, you become more secure. So utilize the imagery, it's on the podcast, you'll find it there. Yeah, I think episode 35 or 36. Get a sense of what we're talking about here. It the the the just so you know, again, these practices are designed to be done with somebody, so they will not be as powerful as they are when you're sitting with someone because there's a there's we're co-regulating through the experience. So having someone else to guide you is going to provide the most powerful experience for you. Um, so they're not designed to be done alone, but lots and lots of people uh both through uh through direct feedback and you know when I was doing research on all this stuff on Reddit form say that they got a ton out of doing it on their own. So you can do it on your own. So don't shy away from doing that just because I say it's designed to be done with someone else. Okay, uh a couple more things. How much time do I have from you, Grace? I know it's 17 after.

SPEAKER_03 50:22

Yeah, um, I've got a few more minutes. Let's let's go for I don't know, five, maybe ten more minutes. It's my fault. I was late, I was late today, so I'll face the consequences.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Well, that's okay. I mean, we can I'll I'll just say I'll just say a couple more things. So yeah, go ahead. Here were the here are and were for you the five primary conditions that promote secure attachment, right? This is what you needed and what many of you didn't get. This now, this is what you needed, absolutely needed. You are not resilient with you are not fully resilient without these. You you do not people do not overcome this uh unless they actually it resides in you from like if it's incomplete, it resides within you incomplete until it's complete, and that's why the ideal parent figure imagery works and if all the other practices do are designed to rewrite your history to where you complete these storylines that were incomplete. So anything that re remains incomplete within us demands to be felt and completed, right?

SPEAKER_04 51:39

So that's right.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

This is why, for example, when someone's anxiously attached, they're clinging. I need you, I need connection, I feel like jealousy, all this stuff comes as a way to regain and reclaim what was missing, right? So it's it's very clear anxious attachment. Um we see that. So uh, but we can't do that through the other person, we need to do it internally. So these are the five primary conditions a felt sense of safety, right? So that uh is uh is consistent and reliable protection of the child from danger and threat. Very, very important that the child feels safe. Um to be seen and known, right? To have a parent that's consistently and reliably attuning to us, which is actively noticing how we're feeling, checking in with us, um right? Where we're having a felt sense of being ultimately seen and known on a deep level, right? Yes. The third one is experience of felt comfort. So we're time, there's a timely soothing that happens. If we're in distress or we're upset, we're picked up, we're rocked, we're cradled, we're we're given pressure. There's different ways that um, you know, we as parents will show up for a child, and that needs to be done timely. Now, research now that comes out, which is bogus crap, on on sleep training and other methodologies, or the cry it out method or whatever will say that the kids need to learn how to soothe themselves. Get it through your head, people. That is not accurate. Kids can't soothe themselves, they only soothe through co-regulation with the parent. So that's right. Crying it out doesn't work. Crying your crying it out increases dissociation in the child, which will look like that's what it does.

SPEAKER_03 53:37

Yes, that's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

That's not soothing, that's self-protection just because they can't tolerate their feelings. So, timely soothing and reassurance, it's a provides a felt sense of comfort. This is also what a child needs. The fourth is a sense of being valued, prompted by our parents' consistent and reliable and clear, expressed delight in the child. They are delighted to see us to be who we are, right? And we are valued for just being, for just existing as a human, right? Yeah, emotionally immature parents can't do this because they see us as uh I mean uh uh uh a container or a or a reflection of that, right? So they are only valuing us if we are showing up in a way that they approve of, not from a week. Right? The final one is a sense of support support for being and becoming our one our unique and best self, right? So this is the cons again, you get there's these words, and I've gotten that this is coming directly out of the book, uh attachment disturbances in adults. Um but there's consistent, reliable, unconditional support and encouragement for exploration. This means that as kids we're going out into the world, we're getting curious, we're picking things up, we're looking at them, and the parents looking at it and going, Wow, that's so cool, that's so interesting, isn't it? Show me more. You can go out into the world safely and can come back. And there's this there's this sense of being uh able to establish a sense of autonomy by be and also by being witnessed. So we're having this experience where we're becoming ourselves, we're feeling secure and exploring the world, and that is supported, right? So these are primary conditions, and this is what we establish in the parent figure imagery. These the the yeah, I could go on, but so how do we tie this up?

SPEAKER_03 55:59

Yeah, so how we tie this up is we just, you know, the the the message is that if you are someone who identifies with relationship anxiety and ROCD and you're having feelings of feeling suffocated, feeling trapped, one thing I wrote down is having thoughts like, I just want to be alone. I operate better alone. I have that feeling a lot. I still do. I maybe I'm just a person that I just am better by myself. I I just I'm better just doing everything by myself. That is not if you look at even like human biology and community ecology, right? That is not the natural state of a human being, right? But if you're feeling that way, it doesn't mean you're like broken or unnatural. It just means it points to okay, you have overgiven somewhere. Right. There is right, you're burnt out if you have these feelings.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Someone's taken.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

And someone's taken. That's right. So, so just yeah, if if you're feeling that way, start to get curious about where you've done that and challenge yourself to shift it in small ways, like Alex and I talked about. What are some boundaries that you can set with your parent, your friend, your partner? Um, you know, we want them to be a little bit uncomfortable for you, right? If it's too easy, you're probably not growing, right? So a little bit uncomfortable, not something that's gonna flood you, right? You're you're gonna kind of titrate that. That is where you're gonna start to see shifts in this feeling of suffocation.

SPEAKER_04 57:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:33

Is when you when you when you put up more boundaries, when you listen to what you really feel like doing or don't feel like doing in any given moment. That is where this is gonna start to shift.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah. One last thing, Grace, if I can have you for one more second. As Grace's saying, this is gonna be very uncomfortable. Yes, you setting boundaries is gonna you are gonna feel guilty because that's what you were conditioned to feel. You are gonna feel uncomfortable, you are gonna feel at times like you're a bad person for saying no. You have to lean into those feelings and do it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

You have to practice if you don't I still feel that way sometimes, and I it still helps. Every time I do it, it still helps.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

For example, if you don't want to have sex, learn, listen in. That means that doesn't mean you don't have sex. I'm just throwing out like examples right examples of this, yeah. Common things, then you will don't just have sex because you think that it will make your partner happy. Listen inside and honor your edge, honor the avoidance there, see if you can do it in a way or communicate that. Sometimes you might not want to, and that's okay, just don't say I'm not uh this is what I'm feeling tonight. If you need space or alone time, take your space and alone time, but balance that with closeness because you also don't want to just stay away forever. But balance that if your parents asking something of you that's stepping over what you feel you can do or want to do, say no. Let them react to you. Their reactions will say a lot to you. If they say you're selfish, well, that's an opportunity to then further set boundaries. Is that's not I don't appreciate being talked to that way, I won't be talked to that way. Like you learn to speak up for yourself and set boundaries. That will that will diminish the suffocation you experience.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

That's right. And I'll put a pin in intimacy because I don't know why I didn't think of that, Alex. We we gotta do an episode on intimacy and ROCD. Um, because there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of tie-ins here. And I just wanna, as we close, just put a pin in that and and say, like, that is something that so many of us with these patterns and with these struggles struggle with. And I just quick, quick story to end on, maybe, um, is that like if if you know what what happened to me a lot and what still happens to me is I love what you said, Alex, of like express to your partner how you're feeling in that moment. You don't, we're not saying like shut down, be like, don't touch me. I'm no, I'm not having sex with you, push them away or whatever. You know, like you don't have to, but you can say, I'm just not, I'm I'm feeling shut off from this. I'm feeling avoidant. I'm feeling like I just don't know if I want to do this right now. And and and wait, wait to be surprised by their reaction. Because I can tell you, not every partner is the same, right? There are some partners that are anxious leaning that might react a certain way, and that's okay, right? But for me, I was imagining my partner disappointed, disconnecting from me, pushing me harder. And my partner would be like, all right, because he's a he's an adult. Oh, okay. And then guess what happens when they react that way? When they react, you want to do it. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Like you're like, oh, and so if if you've ever openness, you're more open.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

That's right. Yeah. And so, and and whether it's sex or anything, it can be anything, right? Whenever I express to my partner, even though it's so uncomfortable for me, when I'm like, I just don't know. I don't know if I want to do that. I'm feeling like I don't. And he responds with, that's okay. I'm okay. Just let me know. The the the the relief, the openness. And it's because what I expected was an old pattern that I've seen in my parents, not his pattern. So yeah, just just wanted to share that because that's a really that's a really cool thing when that happens and you can really see in real time what giving from overflow feels like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Nice. Great. I hope everyone benefited from this. Um, yeah. So I'll be uh way client-wise for four weeks, but I uh we'll still uh I'm still gonna try and get on and do the podcast because I wanna, you know, keep okay, yeah. I gotta get to work somehow, you know. I gotta like somehow.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

Oh my gosh. Well, I hope next time we talk, you have a baby. We can talk about your baby. Next podcast, Alex's baby.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

Yeah, yeah. Like like uh session on the podcast or something. Anyway, no, it's it's it'll be great. Uh uh thanks everybody. Sign up for the tourist community. Seriously, get on there, check it out. It's in the it's in the show notes. If at least what you do is just check out what's in there. Um you know, because if you can't afford therapy for 37 bucks a month, jump in there, see what it's all about, come to some support groups, talk to us. Um uh you can cancel anytime. So uh all right, Grace. I'll talk to you soon. Talk to you soon. All right, thanks everybody.