E39: Why Intimacy is Terrifying

Do you struggle with intimacy with your partner? Do you find that when it comes to being intimate, you feel repulsed, scared, avoidant, or just uncomfortable? Those of us with Relationship OCD (ROCD) have real issues with intimacy, and beneath the surface, we are ultimately terrified of it! In this episode, Grace and I explain why and how to go about navigating these fears.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the For Love We Hill podcast. It's April 16th, and I am in the middle of paternity leave. I have a month off. I got two more weeks left before I'm back to work. Um and it's things have been going great. You know, we have a lovely uh sweet little girl, Mira, um, who was born on April uh April 4th in in the morning. Early, early morning. Um and uh, you know, we had a we had a home birth, non-medicated home birth, which was just lovely, and uh we're so blessed to have such a beautiful uh addition to our family. So um I've been taking some time off to be here and be present and uh just enjoy the time together. And uh and I am looking forward to getting back to uh to everything and seeing all my clients again in a couple of weeks. So that's uh that's what's new with me. Um Grace and I today we talk about intimacy, which is a big topic among all of us, uh those with a relationship OCD, and we break intimacy down into um into why it's what it is, why it's scary, why we feel the need to pull away, or why we feel not interested in our partner, or uh like leaving, or all of these things link to the fear of intimacy and um uh being vulnerable with my partner. So I'm excited to share this episode with you. Um if you are not a member yet, feel free to join our ROCD course and community um where you'll get access to my 12-hour course and bi-weekly support groups um and a private Facebook community and inner work pairings with people from the community. Once a week, you'll have the opportunity to fill out a partner pairing form if you would like to meet with somebody else in the community to facilitate inner work that you'll be learning in the course, there's lots that you can gain from being in this course uh for uh for 37 bucks a month. I mean, you can't really beat that, right? So uh that's available to you. If you choose to be a part of that, we'd love to have you in there and we'd love to spend some time with you. Um, yeah, um if you're feeling called to dive right into the work with one of us on my team, I have a lovely team of uh of ROCD practitioners who most of which have has actually had ROCD themselves. Um so uh we'd love to be able to support you in that way if that's something that's feasible for you, or if that's something you've been you've been thinking about doing, uh we're here for you in that way too. You can access all of the links in our show notes for that. Um so yeah, uh, thanks again for tuning in, and we um uh let's dive into the episode. Hey Grace. Hello. Another podcast today with Grace McQueenie. Um I'm uh in the middle of paternity leave, uh done week two, so I got two more weeks left and then I'm back to work. Uh but it's nice to jump on and do a podcast episode with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Uh yeah. So things are going a lot, uh I don't know if anyone wants to know or not, but uh things I was gonna ask you, tell us.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

We wanna know.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Yeah, uh things are going a lot smoother than I had anticipated, so my anxiety levels are a lot lower than they were. I think last session we talked about it, but uh no, uh uh Mira was born on uh April 4th, and she uh we had her at home and unmedicated home birth, which was cool. Dion rocked it, and um uh yes, she came out and everything was smooth, and geez, we've it's been so easy. She's been sleeping and you know, we just been hanging out. So we've getting yeah, so uh I was worried that uh a chaos would be uh there like it was last time, but my nervous system's a lot calmer. I think it speaks to the work that I've done uh since Forrest was born, but also too, like I think meds have helped a lot too with keeping me regulated and stuff. Um but anyway, so things are going well.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yay, amazing.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Uh we're gonna talk about intimacy today, which I imagine many of you uh will benefit from this topic, given that so many of us with RCDs struggle to connect to our partner and feel love and connection. I mean, this is a thing that so many of us obsess about is you know um feeling connected, feeling love, right? Um now that makes it you know that that there's a number of different reasons why we feel that. I mean, number one, we're anxious, so we can't feel love and connection when we're anxious. Number two is we're we're blocked, you know, we're um our protective parts, our avoidant protective parts are shielding us from being connected to another person in a deep, intimate way, which we'll talk a lot about. But um, yeah, so Grace, what comes up for you when you hear the word intimacy? And um, how do you want to, how should we start today?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, so I this is for sure something that comes up with all my all clients and all peers of mine that have struggled with relationship anxiety or relationship OCD. And what I found, I mean, it can it can be there right away, like the the fear of it, the issue of it. But what what I found is it actually, tell me if if it's been similar for you, Alex, that like it surges when ROCD actually starts to heal sometimes because it's like the the the super crisis mode compulsions and obsessions are like starting to calm down a little bit. And then intimacy has the space, that intimacy obsession or fear has the space to like swell. So that's kind of how, yeah, that's how it's happened for me. Um and yeah, it is it's a super complex topic. There's definitely different elements of it for everyone, depending on your actual life experience, what your personal obsessions are. So there's a lot of personalization to this, but Alex and I will try to give as general an overview as we can.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Um we'll go general and we'll go deep into it because I've spent a long time, a lot of time thinking about this. And I know you just mentioned to me before we jumped on, Grace, that you've done a uh course or a what was it? Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Recently, yeah, I did a group container. So it was like module work and uh live group sessions and one-on-one sessions were like all included in this package. And while it was mostly me doing the work, my your partner is like involved in a lot of it. Um, which is really, yeah, it was really cool. I learned a lot about myself, about what my fears are, my blocks are, because ultimately, you know, just like love, right? Which is a whole a big blanket term. We should do a podcast on that word sometime, um, of you know, definitely feelings of connection to your partner. There are lots of barriers that get in the way. If you're not feeling attracted to your partner, not feeling like like you want to be intimate or even a big fear of intimacy, it isn't your brain will try to make meaning out of it, just like it always does, right? But what's really going on, and we'll talk about this, is there are barriers. There are blockers, there are parts that are pulling you away, pushing you away from that experience. It isn't that it doesn't exist within you, that wish to be intimate. It's that there are a lot of barriers in place.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

That's exactly it. I I my favorite quote, uh, and I have it in my email signature, is uh Rumi's quote, your task is not to seek for love, but to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you've built against it. And uh it's exactly what it is. Um, there's very there's there's many different ways we could take this conversation, but I think we'll start by just talking about what is intimacy and what does it entail and what does it ask of you? What does intimacy ask of you? And there's um uh I I just looked it up. I didn't know who uh where this term originated from, but intimacy, the phrase uh it can can be sort of thought of as the phrase into me see or into me you see. Uh and uh it's saying uh rever Rivera, I can't pronounce her last name, but apparently there's like uh it's used by many spiritual relationship experts such as Esther Perrell and um you know a bunch of other people to to describe intimacy because intimacy requires us to be seen. So we we're seen, um, and then we have to ask if we're allowing somebody to see us, what are we what are they going to see? Right? Right, what who what do we and and if they're going to see us and what are they going to see? We're typically what from a fearful point of view or an avoidantly attached point of view, well, we're they're going to see what we believe about ourselves. They're going to we're what we're there we're afraid of is we're afraid they're going to see what we see about ourselves in the most negative ways. So what is it that we believe about ourselves unconsciously? And this requires excavation. And for for many of you, you might be like, I have no idea what they're gonna see about me. I just what you know, I kind of believe I'm I'm a good person or whatever. But we're talking about the the we're talking, but like if we really ask ourselves, like I've I've done this experiment with clients. It's like, do you do you do you love yourself? And most people will say no. They'll struggle with that. Do you believe that you're a really good person? And people will struggle with that. Like they want to say yes, we want to say yes, but if we really ask ourselves and we're really honest, a lot of people will struggle with that question. Because there'll be something in us that we say no, like like I can't fully answer that truthfully. Like, yes, I absolutely love myself. So into me, you see, what are you gonna see? Well, I'm worried. Um who was it? Who's the uh the female actor, actress in Harry Potter? Hermione, what's Hermione's name? Emma Emma Watson. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yes, Emma Watson.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

She talked about I I did a saw a reel with her talking about intimacy, and she says, like, you know, we're deeply afraid that if someone sees us, we're they're not gonna choose us. They're not gonna want to choose us. Right? So we will um we build these barriers up to prevent being seen, and we do this in many ways. We will avoid eye contact, we will avoid connection, uh, proximity and closeness, we will put on different masks that we believe should be that people want to see, whether that's the perfectionistic one or the one who wears all makeup or the one who whatever. I mean, whatever you whatever you think of, right? As is what we think others want to see, which isn't intimacy because you're not actually allowing the person in. But true intimacy allow is is a it requires the complete removal of everything that you believe you needed to be in order to be accepted and just let someone see you for who you really are, which is lit, it's which is terrifying. Yes, terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

It really it is. And I just want to jump in and say that you know, if you're listening to this, this might this might really resonate with you. You might be able to consciously say, like, yeah, I am really afraid of being vulnerable. I am really afraid of someone truly seeing me. I also want to point out a different feeling that people might have before they turn up, pause this podcast and they're like, it's not for me. It still is. If you are someone who you're like, no, I don't really feel this way. What I feel is I just don't want to. I'm just not interested. We talked about attraction in our last episode. So go it, listen to it. You're consciously think, because this is kind of more what it was for me, but I have clients that's very much they're consciously aware it's because of vulnerability. If you're not consciously aware of this, that's okay. This is still what's happening underneath. You just gotta hang with us and trust us on that, right? What it feels like on the surface, I'll, I'll, and then, and then yeah, Alex, if you want to tell, let's say what it feels like for you. For me, what it feels like is like, God, I'm just like, I'm not interested in being intimate with my partner. I'm I'm even like, there's disgust there. There's just like, I don't really think it has anything to do with me. I think it's probably the relationship. It's probably him. Like, I just don't, I'm not interested. If that's how you feel, you're still in the right place. You you will find that under layers, which we'll talk about, this is still what the base, the root of it is.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

I love when you add those in. I love because you like I'm I'm always diving right past what you know, into the nitty-gritty of it. But I think it's good to pause at what people's immediate experience is, which most people are probably what you're saying. Like, if you're listening, this you're not you. I mean, if you've done therapy, like and you're you're starting to really explore these things on that level, you're like, yeah, I like I know exactly what that is. I know why. I know, like, based on the way that you know my parents treated me, or blah, blah, blah. I like to, I go right there. But what you're talking about, Grace, is yeah, most many people listening are probably in the space of just this doesn't feel good to me. I don't feel like that.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, like it just icks me. I just don't want it.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

I get the ick. When they get close to me, I want to pull away. Oh, does that mean that I'm not attracted, or does that mean I'm not, I don't love my partner, or that we're not right for each other? You know, that's where people are probably hanging out. What we're talking about today, and I'm glad that Grace pointed this out, is we're talking about the why behind why you're actually feeling that way. This is what you will get to through individual work, or whether you're in my our program uh that I have, the course and community, like we explore these really deep levels and help you explore this, right? So maybe a plug right now is like, you know, if you're not a member of the the ROCD community yet, you can get my course, my 12-hour course, and access to bi-weekly support groups for 37 bucks a month, and you know, you'll get all the resources you need to help explore yourself on a level to where you get to what we're talking about today. But and you can sign up in the uh in the show notes. But um yeah, like uh anyway, yeah. So Grace, so that's so if if you're feeling like well, as what Grace is saying, if you're feeling that way, if you're like, no, I I don't think this for me, I don't think it's that I have problems with intimacy. I think it's just the fact that I'm in the wrong relationship. So hang out, hang, hang in there with us, and I know that you're gonna get there. I mean, that's where we all we all had to go through that initial period of like, you know, uh denial, I guess. Denial of that it's anything other than just the fact that we're in the wrong relationship. Because you will have parts of you that will try to convince you that it is your partner and it's not you as a way to get you out and into safety.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yes, your parts are super sneaky in that way. They're very good at they've learned how to, and we talked about um, I'm realizing now how connected this episode is to the one before, to the attraction episode. So definitely listen to that too, because there's a lot of yeah, a lot of good stuff in there. Disgust ick is such an effective way to get you to pull away. It's like primal, right? Yes. So, like, so if you're feeling those things that you're your part have learned, oh, if I, you know, if I have this feeling, if this disgust comes up, they will pull away, they'll push away the other person. And, you know, oh my gosh, like you said in the beginning, Alex, there's so many, there's so many avenues we could go with this conversation. I would love to start just at a foundation level with just a couple of the things I learned that I already knew, but I didn't really fully believe until I did this group program, um, which was very centered around like somatic work. Um, Alex and I, like, especially Alex's background is mostly in attachment, and you really need both in this, in my, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Like parts and attachment, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yes, parts and attachment, exactly. So, like, really quick, I'm gonna give just a little bit of a somatic foundation here. And what I will tell you is a podcast is not long enough to really dive deep. So, like Alex said, like our our course and community, one-on-one work, you can email, um, you can email us to if you're interested in that. But if your nervous system, your body does not feel safe, you're in that fight or flight mode. You might have heard that term, right? Like your system is in a state of stress, of alertness. It is not going to be able to relax enough to allow that connection. And how that comes out is like recoiling towards um towards your partner, um, be feeling very sleepy and dissociated if your partner tries to initiate a sexual encounter or an intimate encounter.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Um, the fog kind of rolling in, you if your nervous system, which is directly connected to parts, to attachment stuff, which Alex will talk about, but like if your body is not in a state of rest, right? In a state of like safety, it's not going to feel safe enough for that into me, you see moment, right? For that open, raw moment that is needed for intimacy. So there are there are lots of techniques, maybe like later on in the podcast, towards the end, we can, I can share some, to start to down regulate your nervous system. That it'll give you a better chance that your that your body will feel a little bit safer to connect with your partner because intimacy, you guys, is not penetrative sex. That's not the definition of intimacy, right? Absolutely. That's another thing I had to learn and I had to unlearn that it's not, that that's not what it is, right? Exactly. You can have intimate moments with your partner. The the the dictionary of intimacy and all the ideas and all the things you can do is endless, right? Um, the three-minute game is one of my favorites. I'd love to talk about that later. Like there are things that you can do that are that are not that don't, that aren't so penetrative sex. There are so many layers of vulnerability that that are required there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

So I'll stop there, yeah, and and let you kind of I would say, yeah, and I would say penetrative sex is kind of intimacy experts correct me or uh sex experts correct me, but I I think I'm on I mean I I just I'll just say this because it's coming out for me, but I would say would be the byproduct of intimacy. Like like penetrative sex sh I ideally I mean comes from deep intimacy, right? But and and it it's an it's a very intimate process. It's the one of the most vulnerable uh processes we can engage in with another person. It's very um you know, right? So so intimacy is the gateway to that those experiences. Now you can have penetrative sex without intimacy, as you see, I mean, uh on a lot of porn and stuff is is is intimate, see, void uh uh sexual experiences with one another, unless you're watching particular uh genres of porn that are suited to that, that actually incorporate that, which there are. But um, but and so I mean, and in in many ways, porn is problematic in our culture because they're especially from a very young age, we're consuming porn that does not include any form of intimate act, right? We're not seeing it displayed.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, really quick. I just want to just want to insert the fact that like oh my god, I'm immature and I said insert and I laughed.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Uh I want to insert the fact that didn't catch that, but yeah, yeah, no, yeah. Now they did.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I called it out, but unintended. It that like that, yeah, that growing up in society like like porn and just sexual advertising, things like that, that's what you're supposed to do. Many of us, myself included, had sexual experiences early on that uh fortunately for me, like I would, I wouldn't consider them assault or rape. Like I'm very fortunate that I didn't have that experience. Some of you may have, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

But I did have many experiences that jumped. To sexual intimacy to penetrative sex, to other forms of sex, right? Without intimacy. And that can really destabilize. And if that's happened to you, let me caveat, you're not broken, you're not, it's not irreversible. It's just something to notice. Like, what were my early experiences? Did I really feel intimate with this person before we started that? Or did I pressure myself or feel pressured? Like, oh no, this is what you do. You gotta get in and do it. Because your parts, your parts might be fearful of that self-abandonment now, even though that was 10, 20 years ago, right? Like they're still holding on to those experiences. So I'm glad you brought that up because that's what came up for me.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah, like um, like do being saying yes and being a people pleaser and not respecting our no, right? Yes. And when it when we feel it because we think we should. And then later when we get into relationships, we're constantly we're constantly pushing back or wanting to escape because we're worried that we're going to again say yes when when we really mean no, right? It's a big thing with with ROCD. We we like want we're we're such in a place of unconsciously trying to re regain choice that we're rejecting decisions because we think if it has any whiff of being uh against what we really want, then we're like fuck this, right? And right, so I that's uh that's something important. We we can talk about that, but I think that's something really important to discuss at some point. But so um where were we? So I think if we're talking about intimacy, what I want you all to do for a second, and Grace, you can do this. If we all can do this, I want you to just imagine for a second um your partner getting close to you, like looking at you deeply, wanting to see you, wanting to be close to you. And I want you to just notice, and this is you know, this is the somatic piece to it, as Grace is saying, is I want you to notice what goes on inside of your body as you imagine your partner getting close to you. And I can already feel me, my body.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Like I feel like literally I feel like I get a little bit of it's it's the same area of my body where I get like disgust or anxiety. It's not exactly that emotion, but it's just like a clenching. And the first thought that comes to my mind, the first thought, the first thing a part says is what does he want? What does he want? What's he gonna take? Right? And that says nothing about him, to be fair. Like, so everybody knows, like my partner is very secure, very a good person, but that is how that is what my parts believe. He's gonna take something. He's he needs something, he needs something right now.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

And that's the parentification wound, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, listen to that episode too. Yes, yeah, for sure. Okay. People over people overtaking, asking for too much from me, and me overgiving when I didn't need to. Like there's it's both of those things. So even if I mean, I would venture to say most of our listeners are probably parentified in some way. If you're not sure, listen to our episode um probably 10 episodes back, you'll find that. But even if you weren't, let's just say you weren't parentified or that you're not connecting with that, you might be people pleasing or overgiving in other places at work with your friends, with your family. Like there's if you're doing that at all, when your partner is approaching you and asking to connect, it might feel like, what do they want? What do I have to do now?

SPEAKER_02 25:53

And you might just somatically feel that that sensation in your body, and you won't connect it to what do they want. But as you stay, like Grace and I have done a lot of work uh in her work, as you stay with those sensations in your body, you will start to get the story and the narrative of where those sensations originated. So for Grace, what comes up for her is what does he want? Right. That's part of the story that's connected to the body because the body holds the story, right? Your your brain and your body, I mean, it's they're interconnected, right? And your mind, everything is interconnected, right? It's not just your body holds the story, it's that it's like your nervous, your brain and your nervous system hold the storyline that um, and the story is connected to the sensation. So the the portal in can be and usually is through the body, and that's why IFS is also somatic because it'd say, you know, we always start with where do you notice that in or around your body? Because generally the portal is in through the body. So we start there, but for all of you to get curious around instead of allowing your mind to jump to the conclusion that it's your partner instantly, which it usually does, oh no, I'm feeling avoidant or I'm feeling disconnected, it must be this. Take a moment and pause and feel, notice what's going on inside and stay with that. Right? The sensations are the portal to the unconscious and the story that's running through.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

And just like all of our episodes, I think I've said this. This is another kind of pause point. I feel like in the video, we need like a graphic for this. Try something different than what you've tried before. That is what Alex and I are always inviting you to do. You've ruminated about this for hundreds and hundreds of hours. You have tried, quote, everything, right? You have, you have thought through every aspect of your partner trying to figure out why you're not attracted. We're inviting you to break that cycle here. We're inviting you to try something different, even if you don't consciously believe that this is connected to your body, to your parts, to your past. We're inviting you to try something different. Like we we've both been in the depths of this. We know how heartbreaking it is, how destabilizing it is, debilitating it is to have this, right? And and we're telling you, trying something new, at least for me, that's what started to shift this for me. So, so what I want to invite you to do is first what Alex said, when you imagine that, maybe you close your eyes, where do you feel it in your body? For me, I feel it kind of right in my chest. There's like a clenching, there's a need to push away. And and how you fur how you explore that is one one avenue is parts work, which includes somatic work. Another avenue that you can try on your own is do what your body's asking you to do. And what this is what I do with a lot of clients in sessions sometimes. When we want to learn more about this part and there's not a lot they're saying, I will say, what is your what is that feeling that you want to do? And they'll they'll go like this. Almost everyone goes like this, right? Do it.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Get up and push away. Like allow that part to like overtake your body for a second and push and push and hide if that's how you feel, and blah, make like sounds. Like allow your body to do that and you'll start to hear it clearer. Yeah, you'll things will start to come up because you're allowing it to express itself. And and that is when it will feel like, oh, Grace is paying attention to me.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Well, I've got all this to say, I actually have a lot to say. So that can help get past that like dissociation that sometimes happens if you've never done parts work where you're like, I don't know what this part says. Just move for a second. Just play pretend. It's right.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Like, yeah. I would say it's it's uh as important as hearing, right? Feeling and moving and postures is as important as as anything else because in IFS there's a witnessing stage, right? Uh well with the exile, but also too like through befriending protectors, you're there you're in qu there's an inquiry that happens around what their role is, but that inquiry doesn't have to happen through language. It actually I would say the body is language, um, but verbal language, they the befriending and the witnessing also happens through the body because the pushing in the gesturing, as Gigrace was doing, if you if you can't see this, and some of most of these episodes aren't on YouTube yet, they will be eventually. Um but the gesturing of pushing away is language, it's saying something. It's not hard to start to understand, especially when you're feeling it because you're intuitively understanding what's happening as you're doing it. Ah, and you're right, the part through the body will be able to be feel uh have an experience of being understood, which the unconscious is being witnessed and understood, which shifts happen through that.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

That's right. Yeah and and you know, sometimes I will ask clients to show me what it feels like to be you when we when we access a part. I may ask a question. Sometimes I will dive too quickly, right, into like, what's your job? What's your job part? And the part will be like, person will be like, I don't know. And I see them getting in their head, I'll say, you know what? Don't worry about that question. What I want you to do is show me how it feels to be you. And they'll take a second, and then if you're yeah, if you're not watching this, I'm I like they'll they'll they'll curl in or they'll they'll be like, it feels like this, holding their head, yeah, shaking their head. That is to Alex's point, that's that is all we need to start to shift this. Show like move with show me what it feels like.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Exactly. I love that, yeah. I love that. So so what are we afraid of? And we're if we're getting back to that into me see or into I like into me, you see, it's not uh it's a little bit of a very variant from intimity, but um what are we afraid of? Well, I especially with our ROCD or people with ROCD, there's a badness wound. That's one thing. You're gonna see how bad I really am. And again, on the surface, people aren't gonna be able to connect to that initially because if you're not connected to your wound of badness, now you are when you get when your RCD gets inflamed and you feel like a terrible person. Then you are boom, there it is. That's right, but in terms of like intimacy, and oh oh, I don't know, like I don't think that I'm worried about them seeing me as bad. No, you don't think it, but you feel it and it's in there. But there's all these things that we're worried is gonna happen if if we're seen, right? Now, uh Grace, what are you what comes up for you? Like if you imagine your partner looking into your eyes and seeing you, I mean you have these somatic responses of pushing away and whatever. But what do you imagine you're afraid would happen if your partner really saw you? Who Grace, you know?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

I would say for me, and I only arrived at this after a lot of work because it didn't, it just didn't come right away to my to my conscious mind, but I, you know, afraid of definitely seeing badness, seeing that I'm not enough in many ways, like I'm not whatever it is, connected enough, pretty enough, focused enough on them, enough in love. This is another common thing. Like, oh, if I really open myself, they're gonna, they're gonna see that I'm somehow not feeling enough for them. Right. Um also there's fears of yeah, of like engulfment, of like, oh, if I open myself up to them, they're gonna take too much. They're going to require me to do so much and I'm gonna lose myself somehow. Um, yeah, that's a really big fear too, because for me, it's happened to me before, because I've been parentified, like because I was responsible for, felt responsible for the feelings of my parents when I was young. Um, and in my adult life, like I I did, you know, kind of put abandon my own needs and boundaries and things for someone else and became overwhelmed by that. So, like parts just trying to prevent that experience from happening again.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Um yeah, and then I think that there's also fears deep down of like of big feelings of really feeling connected and dependent on in some way this person. Because if you because if I lose them, I'll break. Because if I lose them, I won't be able to handle it. And that's another big thing I talk about with with clients is is we get to that fear. Oh, it's interesting that you are the avoidant partner because deep down you're actually afraid of losing this person.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

That's actually what you're what you're afraid of. It's kind of it shows up in like, oh, if I'm avoidant, then I'm protecting myself from pain if we break up, or if I'm avoidant, then I'm leaving first so they can't hurt me. Like there's so many different variants of this, but ultimately the fear of loss is still there. And with intimacy, you're really inviting that, which is which is is scary. That's huge.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

You just that's amazing. So yeah, you you you mentioned a couple really important things. Incompetence, like you're gonna see how incompetent I am, how like my lack of being able to love you in the way that you need to be loved, which is a parentification wound, right? Like, because what kid can love the parent enough to to heal the parent's wounds, which is what the parent does. They look to us to heal their wounds that they had from childhood, which is kind of what the romant romance is, you know, the romantic piece is, or the uh the um uh, you know, the the I guess traditional love story is you'll rescue me. I will finally find the one who will rescue me from my pain. It's another type of that's right. Right. So there's that. Like for me, it's you know, like you're gonna see that I'm ugly and you know, you're not gonna like what you see and and all that. And I I I think I wasn't thinking of this. I mean, I had thought of this before and it's in me, but I'm not connected to it at this point, until you said it at least, which is the fact that if I allow myself to love you, if I allow myself to get attached to you, and then you go away or you die, or whatever, then I'm gonna be devastated. I'm I'm not gonna be able to handle it. I like I can't.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Right, I won't be able to hold it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

So I'd rather keep you at a distance um and you know, then really allow myself to rely on you, and this is another uh attachment wound. If I really let allow myself to rely on you and you let me down, or you go away, I'm gonna be devastated, right? So, because as you know, many people with RCD were hyper-independent because we learned that we can't rely on anybody else. We were relied upon. That's right, right? We were relied upon. So man, it's a terrifying thing to feel to rely on somebody else because you're just gonna fucking let me down. I'm gonna trust you, you're gonna I'm gonna feel like I can lean into you, and then boom, you're gone again, and I won't be able to handle it. That's a huge one, I think. I think that's that is a huge one.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

That is a huge one. What's coming up for me around this too is like if you have a secure partner or a partner who's anxious-leaning, we talked about this in last week, in the last episode we did too. It it can, you know, activate these avoidant feelings, whether they're secure or anxious-leaning. If you've ever been, this is another super common thread with my clients, is like, if you've been with a partner who is avoidant, you might notice that the opposite happens. You're super attracted to an unavailable, emotionally unavailable person. You're really attracted. You feel like, oh my God, they might be the one. I've never felt this way before. There's there's limerence, there's obsession, there's anxiety. Do they like me? Oh my God, what does this text mean? Are they are they thinking about me? Are they this? Like some of us, including myself, have felt like two different people in relationship. And that there's a reason for that. Your system is feeling a different, well, I was gonna say a different risk, but arguably it's no risk with a person who's avoidant or emotionally unavailable. You, you're, you, they're already, they're not here. So you are clamoring after them, wanting affection, wanting approval. That happens, right? Because you know that you're not gonna lose them because you never had them fully.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah. You're afraid of losing them at the same time, which is so that's what's making you crawl after them.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

If someone's available for you or even wanting you, then you're feeling avoidant because you're all these fears are coming up, like, oh my God, this is too close. They're getting too, you know. Yeah, I'm going, I I actually am putting a lot more at risk here. So some of you may have felt both of these extremes. You might have disorganized, is that what we call it nowadays? Is that the disorganized attachment?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Or fearful avoidance.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, like depending on who you're with, you're kind of having that feeling. So a lot of you might be like, well, you know, in my previous relationship, I was super sexually attracted to my partner. I had a lot of intimacy. You know, we we had a lot of intimacy, sexual intimacy is usually what people meet, think they mean. So we should spend a couple minutes on like what are other forms, but like, and then to that I'll ask, oh, interesting. Tell me about what that how that relationship was. What was that partner like? And they'll be like, well, they were pretty emotionally unavailable.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

And I'm like, Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

I I would venture to say that that that's like almost every example of this, is like, oh, you know, you're feeling avoidant now, but you used to feel really sexually attracted to your partner or another partner. Hmm. How emotionally available was that exactly, you know, like for me, I I remember, I'll just tell like a 30-second anecdote that I tell a lot of my clients is like when ROCD showed up for me in a big, big way that I couldn't ignore, it was with a partner who was emotionally detached. And I had a lot of anxious attachment.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

And then when he started to open up to me and trust me, the avoidant attachment came in and it was like, whoa, I feel completely different. We have to break up. We broke up a bunch of times, got back together. And then when I when I decided I was going to move to Austin, where I am now, and we were like, okay, we're gonna stay together for the next three months, and then we're gonna break up because we don't want to do long distance. Those three months were probably the most secure I've ever felt in a relationship. The most calm, the most, this was like, you know, because I knew there was an end. Yeah. So these parts weren't scared of all of those things, right? So it's it's it's really interesting. And I remember at the time being like, what the hell is happening? Like, what's going on? But it makes so much sense. It does now when you consider all this.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Yeah, you're right. Yeah, we, you know, for for those of you listening, you're probably more disorganized as we're talking about. You have anxious and avoidant parts, and we talk I talk a lot about that, right? Like, um, but you know, when we're with emotionally unavailable people, we're chasing them. And it's symbolic of the childhood experience where there wasn't enough, like you're constantly trying to get approval and validation from your caregiver, right? And when you do, it's a huge dope, it's a huge dopamine hit, neurochemical hit, right? You feel good, you feel validated, you feel important, you feel, you know, valued, and and uh, and we're we're running after that. And and uh all stories uh long uh long for completion, right? Every story longs for completion. So you have that old storyline running through the fact that you need to secure uh your your parental figure in a way where you feel whole and you feel validated. So it it it I'm not articulating it properly exactly, but um you you're you're just continually trying to chase and find the solution to the problem of you not being chosen or wanted by another and who perfectly to give you that satisfaction than getting into a relationship with someone who doesn't give you that so that you can continue to try and get that. Exactly. That's so true. You know what I mean? Like that's the trauma, that's the that's the this is why people um this is why you people will say, Why do you keep why do they so and so get keep on getting with uh abusive partners? Like can't they just like pick someone nice? It's because we're trying, we're unconsciously tr gravitating back toward the old storyline where the relationship template originated, trying to solve it. That's what we try and do. We're we're addicted to chaos because we were brought up in chaos and we're trying to resolve the chaos, which we can't. That so that's why that's why being in a emotionally available and secure relationship feels so unfamiliar and weird and and uncomfortable. Because it's not what we're used to. Plus, that's right. Brings up all these things that we're talking about, the fear and the the fear of commitment and the being seen and known and not chosen and engulfed and all of it.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Yeah. Yeah. And and what you're saying is reminding me of the Carl Jung quote um that I might butcher, but you'll get the gist of it. It is uh it is if if you don't make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate.

unknown 45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

And that is so much of what is happening with people, because I also have people say to me, I don't know why I keep choosing partners like this. I don't know why I have this history of like 10 avoidant partners, you know, and this is my first secure relationship. Like, I don't know why. It's because you I'm so sorry, my cats are fighting. Do you hear those?

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Oh, that's okay. It sounded like a baby. I was like, You got a baby there, Grace, or something? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

So um, yeah, I'm gonna. Hello, everyone. We're gonna get out of here, guys. Um, yeah, so that is what is happening. Sorry, everyone. That's what's happening is is you just haven't when you're when you're enacting these patterns, you're trying to finish a story from your childhood. You've got all of these parts that are involved, and it's happening seemingly um unconsciously, right? It's happening like without your control because you haven't made the unconscious conscious yet. So a big part of all these things we're talking about is doing this work. You've gotta figure out. You don't need to figure out, oh, on like April 16th, 1997, my mom and I this. You don't need to figure out exactly the day that something happened or the exact event. But what you do need to figure out is what is your parts, what is what is your system like? What emotional memories do these parts hold and does your body hold? And and how is it being translated into life, right? And and that's it before until you do that, you will continue. I'm not it's not like you're doomed, but but you you very likely will continue to kind of like enact patterns and behaviors that that are not aligned with how you want to be.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Um, and intimacy is one of those things, right? If you are finding yourself really pushing your partner away in this area, and and it's it's oh my god, the shame. We didn't even get into that, but the shame makes it worse. It puts more pressure on you, right? I should be doing this. Yeah, my partner's gonna be disappointed. Uh-uh. Like, if you the only way to kind of break that cycle is to start to bring some of this stuff to the surface.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Clean it out, clean it out. It's like if I don't know, this is probably a stupid analogy, but um like rust. Like if you don't get all the rust off, it's gonna collect more, you know, it rusts more. You know, you gotta like get all the rust off. You gotta that's right. Now, now it's like, and we're like tuning forks, like we're we're going to attract what has always been, right? So we have to we have to clean up our energy. And the best way to do that, the easiest way that to do that right now, and and as we're talking about, try something different, just start to feel, just like focus on feeling your emotions. Like when it comes up, feel just try and feel it. Can I be with this? Can I be with these? Instead of thinking and trying to figure it all out if I'm in the right relationship, just spend some time noticing what's going on internally for you, just be mindfully aware of it. That's the simplest thing, you know. But like, because what I I mean, I have clients that have like ended relationships because like in more like toxic situations, and they get back into the dating world, and it's so interesting to see them date because they're now dating consciously, and I'm helping them date consciously, like I'm I'm kind of like a dating coach. So this is really interesting because what some of these people will th say is oh, like I'm I met so-and-so, but I met this other person, and oh my god, this other person, wow, it's like I'm just like I feel I'm really we're engaging in conversations deeply and oh blah blah. And and I'm like, and I'm just curious because I'm listening with my like trauma ears, right? And the the one and they're saying, Yeah, like this other person is so nice, or whatever, and is so great, and you know, but this other person's more exciting. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm in the chill camp. I'm like, I like this other one that's like really nice and stuff, and like, yeah, but like this other one is just so exciting. And uh we find out like a couple sessions later, just in this one case, that this other person that was exciting is no longer responding consistently to the person. It's like, ah, they're emotionally unavailable. How interesting. And like, so that's right.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

If they're personally exciting is a is a signal. Not that you can't be in a loving relationship where there's excitement, right? But I have so many clients that are like, they're my relationship's not exciting. I'm not excited by my partner, and that's why I want to leave. I'm like, you know, it's actually the opposite. It is actually if you are with someone and they're constantly giving you those dopamine rushes of excitement, that is likely some kind of a trauma bond or parts-led enactment of something, not a sustainable, healthy situation. Yeah, which is a bummer. Like it's okay to grieve that for a sec, to be like, damn it, like I love dopamine. I love dopamine, you guys. Trust me, like we all do, right? But it's like it's the it's the crash out, it's the burnout, it's the up and down that you're it just isn't sustainable for your system long term.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Yep. So, you know, the this is, and and I just say this like I'm not I I want to be mindful of confidentiality. I'm not saying like this is what this is what everybody that I'm doing sort of doing dating coaching is experiencing. They I'm just I'm thinking about one case right now, but we're like we we tend to follow our feelings blindly. Like that's what we just follow our feelings. We we want to follow what feels good, like we want to do that, and we don't want to follow what doesn't feel good. The problem is with trauma and attachment wounding is typically what feels good isn't usually all that healthy, and what doesn't feel good is I I shouldn't say all the time, but is typically like what what doesn't feel good is typically what is more healthy. If it's more now what it what doesn't feel good, if obviously we're we're eliminating abusive stuff here, but if if boring, if we're bored, if they're nice and kind and they get us and they want to get to know us and stuff, and you're bored, that's a good sign. Don't run away from that. But what so you gotta be really mindful. I would say in tr with trauma and attachment wounding, you don't want to blindly follow your feelings, you want to get really good at knowing what you feel, when you feel it, and why you feel it so that you can more make informed decisions that are good for you because you can't always trust your feelings. It's not you know you can't and you can't for your gut. You can't actually know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

You can't, yeah. We and we've talked about like faulty neurosception before, where like you're you know, you're trying to look for your intuition, your gut feelings. If you are in the depths of ROCD, relationship anxiety, intimacy issues, we're gonna table that for the moment. That is not going to be perceptible to you until you quiet down. It's like, imagine you're like, I'm thinking of an analogy that is gonna sound crazy, but imagine you like open this cardboard box, okay? And that's your like your inner self, and they're and and you're looking in this cardboard box for like a little gem that is your intuition, okay? There's like a little shiny gem somewhere in there. It's full of all these little creatures. They're screaming, they're like jumping around, there's, they're making a mess. There's like a ton of clutter in there, and you can't find that. That is what is that's kind of a wild analogy, but that's what's happening. You're not gonna be able to find that little like intuitive, because intuition is quiet, it's calm, it's it's a background kind of thing. It's it's never intrusive. These parts are so much louder, they they demand so much more attention. So we have to take them out one by one. Hello, who are you? What do you need? Oh, you're good. Okay, you can move on. And we have to really do all that excavating before we even worry about that. Looking for that tiny intuition piece in this giant pile of your trauma, your parts, it's not gonna be useful for you right now.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

You know, and I can hear people getting scared, like, yeah, but what if I sift through all these little pieces and then I find my intuition, and then that when I finally find it, then I then it tells me I'm in the wrong relationship. You know what I mean? What would you say to people then? Super common. I mean, everybody's probably asking that right now. Like, oh my gosh. Well, we'll there's a little in thing quiet and blah, blah, blah. What is that? You know, everyone's freaking.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

I can hear everyone's parts going, oh, it's like so, and this is like so common. We I'm sure Alex and I have talked about on the podcast before the most common fear about doing this work. I even have people sign up to work with me and then like cancel because they're just they're so scared of this. Like, the thing is, is like I okay, this yeah, I'll give you Sassy Grace's answer and then I'll give you the real answer. Sassy Grace's answer is like, oh, that's interesting. You're afraid to lose your partner. Does that mean you might like your partner?

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Okay. Obviously, if you're like having these fears about like discovering that might that means that right now you're not ready to leave. You don't want to leave, right? Yeah. So I I that's kind of like the sassy version of me, but I know that that doesn't take away the activation around this. So the other, the other thing is like what I tell people is A, this is going to be scary to try to do this work, but it is going to help you. Alex and I say this all the time. I unequivocally, if you do this work, you will, things will start to shift. Uh, we believe in the in parts work and somatic work so.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Let me let me let me, I know you have to I just want to say before you say this, yeah. I I just to reassure parts. The thing is, number one, you're right. We have to get curious about well, yeah, I like your the sass, but first of all, what part of the work that we would then what we would do initially is we would go, let's notice your fear of finding out that you have to leave your partner. Check, let's focus on that. There's your fear of loss. That's a big one. That that's a huge deal. What what is that like? Oh my god, if I have to leave, then I you know, then so we how what part of what we will do with you is we help you to get into a place where you can handle whatever where you can, you know, where you have the resourcefulness inside of you to be able to cope with big feelings. The second thing to know is that there's no right or wrong relationship. Your intuition will not tell you you're in the wrong relationship. Like when you find your intuition, it's actually I don't even recommend us look for intuition at all. We're not looking for anything, we're not sifting through a box, you know. I that I know that's not your point, Grace, but to to help other people understand, we're not sifting through any box trying to find the intuition. It's not trying to find the answer. There's no answer.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

We're not.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

We're we're helping you extricate yourself from your fear and your barriers to love and connection so that you can open your heart and connect to your partner. Now, the only the only um exception to this, there's only one exception, and don't run away from what I'm about to say because you need to hear this. The only exception would be does your partner, is your partner unwilling to compromise with you, to treat you well, to listen, to work through difficult issues? Does your partner um is your partner abusive in any in any way? Like there's an exception to the rule, but ultimately, if your partner's kind and respectful, and you guys sync up and there's at least some similar values and you have a similar outlook, and you know, like nothing's perfect, and you can work and compromise and grow together and cultivate more intimacy and do all that stuff, which is in any relationship. We gotta like do all that, it's not there from the beginning. Then the work is really about extricating yourself from all of the shit that you've taken on that's blocking you from actually just being at peace in your relationship.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

We're not like thinking about intuition. It's like, oh, you're not finding out if you're on the right relationship. Our job is to not help you figure out if you're in the right relationship. Because you're not, there's no right relationship.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

Right. That's where that's the point I was gonna make. Um, is like self, capital S self energy. We talk about in in parts work, you know, that we might say is like intuition, right? Is um what are the C's called connected?

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Calm, clear, connected, curious, creative, courage, compassion.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

This version, this this true self in you is a well spring of love, of intimacy, of vulnerability, of curiosity, an endless spring of this. Yeah, it is not a why a part that has all the answers of who is right and who is wrong for you. It's this actually, if you're really in self, you love everybody pretty much. Like you're it's so open. So that's what Alex is saying. You're not going, we're not actually looking for a part of you that's hidden that knows the answer. That's not what we're doing. We're we are removing barriers. And I know, I know we're we're running up against time here, and I want to bring this back around to intimacy. Um, I mean, obviously this is all connected, you know. So, like, what can you do? I know, you know, with these episodes, people might leave thinking, like, okay, what can I do? So I'd love for us to kind of wrap this up in like, here's a few things we want to leave you with. One of the things is do the work. And that ideally means at minimum joining something like Alex and my group program, which will be linked in the show notes, um, where you have module work you do on your own. Then we meet and support groups bi-weekly, and um we have a Facebook community as well where we talk to each other. That's one. Two one-on-one work. Really, really important for this if you can swing it. That's gonna help you do that excavating. Um, and then Alex, I'll I'll pause in case you want to add anything. And then I just want to give a couple like exercise or tools that I took from this group program on intimacy that I think can help people.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Sure. I I um yeah, I think at minimum join the community. Yeah. Uh at minimum. Uh, and you know, obviously like work with us if it's feasible.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

If I if I may, you know. Um, and uh, and yeah, please do share your tools, Grace.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Yeah, so there's just a couple things that my partner and I implemented from this intimacy program that really helped me. And one of them is this thing called the three-minute game. I don't know if you've heard of this, Alex.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Um, it was designed by Dr. Betty Martin, and you can Google it. You can Google the three-minute game Dr. Betty Martin or just the three-minute game how to. There's video tutorials on how to do it, but it's very simple. You set a timer for three minutes, you can put on some music if you want, and you your you and your partner switch off giving and receiving touch of some kind. Um, for example, you the first three minutes, my partner will ask me, what would you like me to do to you for your pleasure? And before people are like, Oh, I don't want it. I don't want the sexual pleasure. I'm not talking about sexual pleasure. I will say to him when we do this, you know, I'd really like for you to just like massage my hand.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:23

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

And he will do that for three minutes. And your job is to focus only on what is happening and how it's feeling. Parts might come in, like, oh my God, is he okay? How many minutes has it been? Am I taking up too much time? That's normal. Just bring your focus back to whatever you asked your partner to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:42

Then you swap. You ask your partner, what can I do to you for three minutes? And then your job in that is you focus solely on giving to your partner for three minutes. How would they like to be touched? What direction did they give me? And you're not thinking about you at all. And so you you do that combination. There's also, so you do those two, and then you do, you can do um what like they will ask you, how do you want to touch me for your pleasure? And that that gets a little like it doesn't ever have to be sexual, you guys. It doesn't ever have to be sexual. But what it teaches you is there is this give and take of pleasure. Sometimes we're touching our partner for our own pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Right. Like sometimes I'm rubbing Doug's back because like I like his back and I just want to, right? So, so, so it just like, and what it does is it shows you what other types of intimacy there are and how how much that there are levels, and and it's just such a beautiful way to connect in a structured way. And I just found that my parts find it really comforting that there is a structure, there's a time limit, there are rules, right? So it's a good way to kind of start this process. And honestly, for me, and it does not ever have to lead to sexual encounter. Sometimes it does for me, even when I don't want it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

Because you because I allowed you up into the exactly where you feel safe and that's right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Yeah, check out the three-minute game. Yeah, cool. Um, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

Do you have a how many time do you have? Are you skipping to work?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Yeah, I do I do need to get going, but I have a few more minutes. You can go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:26

Yeah. Well, I was just gonna say on that, like you could also use that exercise as a wound finder, too. Like, as you're saying, when they're touching your hand, for example, you might have parts that say, I don't like this or I don't want this. Notice that too. Like, don't just like notice the the pleasure too, but yeah, but also notice what else it brings up and be mindful not to go, oh, does that mean I'm in the wrong relationship? Just stay with this, it feels really uncomfortable right now. Be with that, notice that, stay with that. Oh, okay. I can be with that. Yeah, you can just stay with that, or oh, I just want to push him away right now, or fuck him, I hate him. You like you might have that come up. I fucking hate you. You're disgusting, like you might have really intense thoughts that come in. Notice that. Don't get too swept away with the melodrama of your mind. Just be that's right. Yep. Because you can have all of your thoughts. Don't, don't, don't try and limit your experience of what you're thinking. Hate him or them or her, you know, love them, whatever you feel. Let yourself have the feelings and get curious about it. So that's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's a good, you know. I have so many other things I've learned from this container, but I think that that is the most impactful and the most something people can do on their own without like guidance. It's a very simple thing. So yeah, give that a try. And um, yeah, we hope to see you all in our community. We've been, it's it's been running for a couple months now, and we've it's been great. It's been really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

So I hope people can join. Sign up. It's only 37 bucks a month. You can come and hang out with us every second and fourth Thursdays. Second Thursday at 9 a.m. Eastern, fourth Thursday at 4 p.m. Eastern. But even if you can't make the the support groups, like just access the course material.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

I was gonna say the course material in the Facebook group,$37 a month is yeah, pretty good for just those two. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:34

Even if you come in, I mean you can cancel any time, like you don't have to stay forever, right? And you can cancel it easily. So um, that's right. Anyway, it was good to be with you again, Grace. Uh I'll see you next Thursday for another podcast episode. We'll figure out what we're gonna talk about. But uh, thanks everyone for tuning in. And I will uh be releasing this today, it's uh the 16th of April.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

So yeah. Thanks everyone. Wonderful. Thanks, Alan.