Sex & Intimacy Problems | Relationship OCD (ROCD)

If you struggle with Relationship OCD (ROCD), you might also struggle when it comes to sex and intimacy, and take that as a sign you are in the wrong relationship. You might think that if you really did love your partner, intimacy would feel more natural. Or if you were sexually compatible, it would just be easier. In this episode, we talk about the core issues of sex and intimacy to help you understand the why behind it.

Join the Relationship OCD (ROCD) Course & Community! Only $37 per month!

https://www.rocdcourse-forloveweheal.com/sales-page-6756-8810-8850-8583

Want one-to-one support for healing Relationship OCD (ROCD) from the root? Book a free discovery call to find out more about how we can help! https://forloveweheal.com/relationshipocd-therapy/

Questions? Email me - alex@forloveweheal.com

Check out my Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/forloveweheal/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the For Love We Hill podcast. It is July 23rd, and today Grace and I were talking about sex and intimacy, and more so, more specifically, problems with sex and intimacy. Probably many of you can relate to that because I know that those that struggle with relationship OCD also commonly struggle with sex and intimacy problems. Because the issue of relationship OCD, it is a relational issue. It does result from relational wounding, and relational wounding also results in problems with sex and intimacy. Go figure, right? So we're gonna be talking about all of that today to helpfully clear up some confusion for all of you who might be struggling in these areas, and a little bit uh to uh as to what to do about it. Um if you want to, if you're in a place where you're looking to do some more work on relationship OCD, um join our course and community. You know, it's for 37 bucks a month. You get access to my comprehensive course in relationship OCD, and now you get bought no sorry, now you get weekly support groups, um, which is every Thursday. The first, third, and fourth Thursdays of the month are um 4 p.m. Eastern time, and the second Thursday of the month is 9 a.m. Eastern time. Um, in addition to all of that, what I'm currently working on, which should be done at the end of the month, is called the ROCD Companion app. And this app is uh is a sort of universal tool for working through relationship OCD. Um and in this app, let me just look here for a second, let me open the app. In the app, what you get access to is you get um uh an IFS uh guide. So what it does is you you click begin a session in here um and it asks you which part you want to focus on. But in the app, if you explore the ROCD triangle, it breaks down all of the different parts of relationship OCD, all these different subpersonalities that show up. So if you click into the obsessive-compulsive system, you can see there's obsessive parts, there's compulsive parts, there's the OCD inner critic, there's responsible parts for people's emotions, there's this shame child, and there's this helpless child. Each of these parts needs to be worked with in order to recover from relationship OCD. On the bottom, and you know this triangle that I draw, if you've seen it, we've got avoidant parts, breakup urges, disgust, hyper-independent parts, grandiose parts, and then there's the the the wounds of the rejected child and the parentified child on the anxious system of parts. There's preoccupied, people pleasing, jealousy, anger. Some some of you might not struggle with jealousy, and then there's the fears of loss and feeling not good enough. What this app will do is it guides you through exploring and healing each of these parts. Um what you also get is you get an ROCD self-assessment where it assesses uh your symptoms, it gives you a breakdown at the end around what uh what what ROCD type you're in. It's got a symptom identifier. You can literally type in whatever you're struggling with and it will point you into the direction of whatever part it is that you're that you're navigating. So for example, uh if you are struggling with, let's say, urges to break up, it will it will focus you in on the breakup urges. You can click that part, it will then bring you into the parts work uh exercise where AI helps you um get to know that part, it guides you through that. Uh, what else is in here? You also get access to childhood mapping and what this does, the childhood mapping. It uh it maps out your specific childhood, it asks you questions and prompts and stuff, it maps out your childhood, explains why your specific childhood uh resulted in relationship OCD in your current relationship. And finally, we've got parts mapping. So it maps out as every session you do in here, it maps out your parts so you can see it visually. Um really cool app. Really cool app. So I highly recommend checking that out. That will be part of the uh the RCD course in community for 37 bucks a month. So you get all of this for 37 bucks a month. Um, so uh link will to that will be in the show notes below. Um and uh and yeah, I hope I hope to see you in there. Uh we have a growing community. I think we're almost at 70 people so far. So we got a lot of people in the support groups, they're interactive. Come in, share your story, do inner work together. It's all uh it's lovely. I love it. Um so anyway, without further ado, let's jump into today's episode on sex and intimacy. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the For Love We Hill podcast. Hey Grace.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Hello, good morning.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Good morning. Uh we're gonna be talking about intimacy today. Um, problems with intimacy, what intimacy is, why we struggle with it. Um I don't know, everything. What else about intimacy?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Everything. This is something that, you know, for some of you might have been one of the quote triggers or something that started your the thoughts that you have that you associate with ROCD, right? Like maybe you didn't feel like being intimate with your partner, whether it's sexual or just romantic intimacy, and you thought to yourself, oh, you know, does this mean something? There's like often a really fast meaning making out of that experience because movies, social media, society, other people who are anxious about their own relationships, right? Might say something like, Oh, if your body's telling you no, then that is a sign and you shouldn't. You know, these are things that you maybe have heard, which reinforces those voices in your own system and that own fearful part of you. So yeah, that's what we're gonna be talking about today. It's been a long time coming. I feel like we've been alluding to talking about this a lot, and so I'm excited that we're diving in.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

I think we talk about it all the time. It's just we haven't done an episode that focuses solely on intimacy. So yeah, I mean, you know, for those of us uh with relationship OCD, uh typically intimacy is uh is a big stumbling block because um, you know, we might feel like that, uh, those deactivating strategies from the avoidant parts of us, which can look like breakup urges or uh feeling disconnected or disgust or irritation or uh you know uh shutting down or numbness or whatever. Uh numbness can have a variety of different uh reasons. But um, and then what what happens is or or just lack of interest or feeling like pulling away when our partner gets close or just a general sense of you know just lack of interest in in engaging with our partner in that way, sexually or uh or emotionally. Um and and as Grace was saying, what what typically happens is because we have this certainty-seeking, meaning-making uh part of us who's on an uh incessant hunt for certainty around what uh uh whether we're in the right relationship or not, it just jumps to the conclusion that this must mean that I'm not I must not be into my partner because what I learned was that when you love somebody, uh intimacy is just a natural flow. We want it all the time, we want sex all the time with them. There's sexual chemistry, we know how to be with each other in a way that makes each other feel good. And then when this stuff arises, it's like, well, what's wrong with what's wrong? I mean, it must it must be the relationship. Um, so we're gonna be talking all about that today and and why why you actually struggle, what the real reason is that you struggle with intimacy, um, not from necessarily a compatibility issue um uh or uh or a right or wrong relationship issue, but an internal issue that has to do with wounding and uh and um and communication, safety, all of that comes into play as well. Um so uh what I'd like to start the episode off with, and I don't know if anyone has heard this before, but um uh let me just do a quick Google search. Who said uh it so intimacy um can be thought of as into me see or into me you see. I forget who said it, so uh obviously I did not create that, but someone said that. Uh into me see and what that means is is that intimacy requires um the the trust to allow someone to see all parts of you and know that all parts of you are welcome and that you will be accepted. So the ability to be uh deeply intimate with another person requires the trust that you can um essentially you can handle uh the the the the um being seen and known. And and if someone doesn't like what they see, that you can also handle that. Like that your world will not fall apart just because someone doesn't love you, all the parts of you.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

That's right. Yeah, that's right. And another way this comes up a lot is checking, like maybe you do get into some intimacy with your partner no matter what it is, right? Maybe you're just cuddling on the couch, maybe you're having sex, maybe you know, there's lots of different forms of intimacy, and maybe you start out feeling like, okay, yeah, this is like this is okay, and then you're checking during it. That's another thing that happens is there's so much checking of like, how does this feel? Is my body sending me a signal that this is okay, that I like this person? And that constant checking, just like checking on emotions and things during your relationship, is going to have the opposite effect. If you're hyper-vigilant, you know, you're during that time, you're not going to, you're not going to be able to relax. And and intimacy is so, you know, it's it's so important to be able to kind of let go, which is so scary for people with relationship anxiety, ROCD, attachment wounds, people who are hyper-vigilant. We have parts that feel like fully relaxing and fully allowing someone to see you, that into me you see right thing is is really scary for those parts and feels really unsafe. So we understand why you're doing this if you're doing this, you know, just to take like an unshaming stance. Like we we get it. Alex and I have both we've talked together outside of the podcast about our own struggles with this, right? This is not, this is so common. Uh, and it's healable and it's gonna take some work to heal it, but it really is. Um, there are big, big shifts you can make in this area.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah, exactly. So, like this whole thing about intimate you see, now we have to ask ourselves, what are we afraid that our partner what if we are afraid, if if the issue if some of the issues that we're having with intimacy are a result of hiding, uh essentially what it is, it's that we've exiled parts of us that have certain behaviors or characteristics or attributes, if we are hiding those, and if that is the reason why we're struggling with intimacy, is because we need to keep those parts hidden from the people from our partner, we have to ask first of all, what are we hiding? What don't we want our partner to see, and why? That's right. And and those questions and that curiosity and exploring yourself in that way um will lead you to w what you sort of, as Gabor Mate would said, would say, uh, where you had to sacrifice your authenticity for attachment. And what that means is what are all the ways that you needed to uh squash parts of you or hide parts of you or exile parts of you in order to belong in your family system? Um whether that is spontaneity or playfulness or uh or emotion, certain emotions, displays of emotions, you know, when we're shamed for crying or we're told to buck up and get over it and move on, or we're, you know, or we're left alone in our feelings to deal with it on our own, whatever it is, all these experiences are experiences of rejection. Every time that we run into a situation at these early ages where emotions weren't welcomed, where we weren't held and supported in certain things, we learn that those things don't result in getting the care we need. So, as an evolutionary adaptation to that, we go, well, that's not gonna get me what I want. That's just gonna feel more painful, so I'm gonna hide it. And then through this process of hiding and and masking and everything through our early life, we then get into a relationship with someone. And if you're if you have RCD, likely you're in a relationship with someone who's emotionally available. They want to see all that, they want to see the parts of you, and you're like, I vowed to never let anyone see that part of me again, so screw that. I'm out of here.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

That's right. That's right. And you know, what I've noticed when I when I start like first session with the client about this, right? What so often comes up when I start to do parts inquiry and we start to talk about like what's really going on here, they say, um, well, I don't want to be inauthentic. My fear is that if I give in to intimacy, surrender to intimacy with my partner, I'm lying to them. And I want you all to like take a second, and if you've if you felt that, I think many of us can relate to that feeling, right? That's that's one of the common obsessions with OC with our OCD. And get more curious because what Alex is saying is really often what is actually under that. You might initially think your thoughts are saying, oh no, no, no, I don't think it has anything to do with showing the person me. I think it has to do with I don't want to lie to them, I don't want to hurt them. That might be true, but there's more. There's more.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah. I don't know if you have you heard that too, Alex, like from people.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There like the I think the the whole thing, this whole system of ROCD is so um is so complex. So there's many different exiles or inner, you know, or wounds to it. So um you're gonna get uh other things showing up, but but essentially most of the issues with intimacy uh result from needing to hide needing to shield ourselves. And um so we wanna be able to get really curious and and you know, like I think for for many with a relationship OCD, we're like you as you're saying, Grace, I don't think I'm hiding anything. I think I'm being authentic, I think I'm showing up. And really, it's because you like people go to therapy because they don't know why they're struggling. That's right. Like, like someone that someone that deals with a particular issue, if they're not versed in emotional stuff or like childhood stuff or trauma or anything, most people just think it's like, well, it must be because like I'm eating the wrong food or I'm like doing I don't know, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

You know that um I'm thinking of that Carl Jung quote that gets used a lot that I really like. He said, Um, if you don't make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. Meaning, and the way I use that with parts work is like if you don't meet your parts, talk to them, get curious about them, allow them to share their fears with you, just like Alex is saying, you will attribute it to, well, maybe my partner and I just aren't compatible. Well, maybe, you know, it's it's not me. I'm not the problem. It's it's my partner, you know. And it's like if you if you continue that way and you don't do that curious inquiry in yourself, you're gonna see this pattern over and over. Most of the clients we work with, the reason they're working with us is they seem the same pattern no matter who, with wildly different partners, right? So you you know, at that point you start to think, huh, is there something I don't see going on here with me? Yeah. So this is another one of those instances where, like, don't necessarily take your thoughts about this at face value, get curious because there's probably more going on.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Well, I mean, and and like what it's so interesting. Like, I mean, I don't know, like probably obviously you you run into this, but when when we're working with clients, it's oftentimes what the client says, Oh my god, this part told me this. I had no idea. Yeah, I know, because it's unconscious. It's the like like what is it? Uh uh, I I think uh what we start out, it's like we're only really aware of five. That's like it's very small. Like it's yeah, right? It's the iceberg analogy, like you know, there's the tip of the iceberg or the things that you're actually aware of, and the there's 95% of the unconscious mind is things that you're not aware of. And until you start to investigate the subconscious, you will not know it why you do behaviors or why you act in certain ways or why you think in certain ways. And so you have to be willing to look under the water to see what's actually going on. Many of you are probably gonna go, yeah, but I'm worried that if I look under the water, I'm gonna find out that I have to leave my relationship. Cut it out.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Look, yeah. I mean, first of all, I know we've said this before, that doesn't happen. And I'm not gonna say it never happens, right? Like I'm sure that, you know, there maybe if somebody decides from like a sovereign grounded place that leaving is the best thing, but that's different than like discovering something in a closet, like, oh god, I do want to leave, and feeling all this activation. It doesn't, it doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Yeah, it's it's it's a decision, and I think it's worth saying because people are gonna freak out at what you just said.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

I mean it is possible, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

So so so maybe uh then I do find that I need to decide it, right? But here's the thing the only reason someone leaves a relationship, you know, if if they're in vet if they're investigating their inner world, the only reason someone starts to dis starts to decide that is there's something that needs to be like there like either you're not being treated well and you s you get the self-worth to s to say I don't deserve this.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, there's like abuse that you weren't seeing, or there's some kind of dynamic that is Yeah, but but that's I I shouldn't say that you weren't seeing there that you maybe weren't attributing because I have clients whose parts, and I've had this happen too in previous relationships, whose parts have beliefs like, well, I'm unworthy, so I better be with someone, no matter what how they treat me. So they're they're ignoring, you know, things that hurt them, right? But it's never gonna be this like discovery. I think that's what Alex and I are getting at. Is it's not gonna be this like surprise, what you're not looking to find out something about you and your partner, right? None of this self-inquiry is even really about your partner at all. It's all about, and it's not even really about your relationship. That's kind of the peak behind the curtain, is like it's about your relational wounds and about what you are needing because your parts are something I really I want to bring up quickly that hopefully doesn't derail us. I think it's on topic enough, is that is that there's this um my body is sending me a sign. My body, oh, I thought that the body speaks, speaks truth. I thought that because that's the rhetoric, right? And I'm a somatic practitioner, so I hear, I understand that. I think what's really important to understand about that, because people with ROCD get hooked on that in intimacy. Like, oh, my body is speaking the truth. I wasn't able to like relax enough to have sex with my partner, and like that, my body's telling me it's not the right no, like, no, and I think I said this to some degree in the last episode, like yeah, the body doesn't speak that way, okay? Yes, your body is speaking in a way in that moment, but what it is saying, you are not interpreting correctly, right? Because it doesn't come out in like an English sentence that fits your exact OCD obsession, right? Like that's that's not how the body, quote, speaks, right? If you're if your body is Tensing up and not allowing sexual intercourse, for example, which is so common. I I have talked to lots of women with um vaginis, which is really, you know, Google it if you don't know what that is, but it's it's painful, it's scary, it's it's related, I believe, to this. And it's like that is your body sending you a fear signal for sure, a dissociated signal for sure. But it's it might not be for the reason that you think. It's I would venture to say it isn't for the reason you think.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Exactly. Exactly. The body speaks in emotions, right? Right. So the body, and and and what emotions are, you know, we're we're animals, right? So we so the body speaks in in in safety, uh, in growth or protection. Right? So the body responds to the environment um in in saying ultimately, like, I feel I feel uh I'm safe, I'm secure, I'm uh, you know, I'm supported, I'm seen, I'm known, and there's a there's a physiological and emotional response to that where there's a relaxation and you know we get the parasympathetic and we get all these things happening. And then when the body is in danger or the system is in danger, we're obviously in, you know, either sympathetic or parasympathetic shutdown, but either whatever it is, regardless of the lingo, it we're we're in uh we're in like a fight or flight. So we're learning, we're we're thinking, you know, we're our body is preparing to deal with some threat. That's the way that the body speaks. Now, everything else is just a story that our mind is attaching to it, right? So essentially, if you are with, you know, if you're with a partner, that's not where there's no danger, you know, if you're not in danger, if they're not, you know, then and your body is reacting in a way where it is a fight or flight response or fawn or freeze or fix or whatever, then you it's not a present situation, it's a past situation. You're getting your body is reacting as if you're in a situation that's dangerous. If the situation is not dangerous currently, then something along the way happened where your body is interpreting the present situation as a threat. Yeah. And essentially, what you're the response you're getting is uh is implicit memory. So the the physiological response that's happening is an implicit memory. That's right. So what you do and what we do with you is when you're having this response, when we do interoception, which is turning your attention inside toward what's going on, you get in touch with not some truth that you're in the right or wrong relationship, but the memory and the experiences that in the past that that is leading you to feel this way in the present moment. That's right so you essentially there's no truth, there's no magical answer or God's will or path or something that you're right on because the body doesn't speak that way, but what you will run into are memories and uh and it of what has happened to cause you to feel this way.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

So I think it's really important to understand that because when now when people um now let's just to go back and clear something up, right? So when you're when you're exploring yourself, like and you you eventually make a decision. Like the only situations in which uh I've I've worked with someone where they eventually decided to leave the relationship are the following They work to themselves to say, I don't deserve this shit anymore, I'm gonna leave because um my partner's not treating me well. Um that's actually it.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Right, it's reasons that like with ROCD completely off the table, relationships end. And that's one of the scary things that fuels ROCD is that this isn't guaranteed. And, you know, I think we mentioned last episode, I'm super proud of several of my clients who have gotten engaged recently and who have like, who have like taken that step. That was a huge step for me. And, you know, they're like, well, why does ROCD still show up? Lots of reasons, depending on who you are, right? But like it's because marriage still isn't permanent. There still isn't a guarantee, and your parts think, your parts are like, okay, if we if we get engaged or we get married, then I'll know and I can relax. And it's like they they never they always find another thing to be afraid of. So that's just another, like, another reason to do this inquiry is there's always gonna be another another thing. But I wanna, I wanna really quick, I wanna mention, because we were just talking about the body and about like you know, the body speaking and the language of the body. If you've if any of you have heard of polyvagal theory, that's like something thrown around a lot in somatic work. We we talk about it a lot. We we kind of sometimes track emotions through the polyvagal ladder. You can Google the polyvagal ladder and you'll see what I mean. But what Alex is describing, that like animal brain, right? The polyvagal, the vagus nerve is a big, big nerve that runs through your body that is like it's connected to so many things and intimacy, especially when we're talking penetration, when we're talking orgasm, that's all connected to your vagus nerve, right? And when you feel, when your when your animal brain and body, your lizard brain, right, are in that safety and connection, that's ventral vagal state. That's often where you're able to be more relaxed, your thoughts are maybe a little more even, um you're you know, you're able to relax more into intimacy. And that's, you know, many of you may find yourself in that sympathetic. That's kind of the next level on this ladder where you're that fight or flight. There's a lot of activity, there's a lot of this that's kind of what we've been talking about so far. There's anxiety, there's like, oh, ah, you know, um, resistance, lots of racing thoughts. But there is a piece of the ladder we haven't talked about that I do want to mention, and that's dorsal bagel. That is shut down and numbness. I think we briefly mentioned it because I can imagine listeners being like, oh, well, you know, my partner must just not be right because I don't get anxious during intimacy. I just feel like I don't care. I feel numb. I feel shut down. Same thing. That's the same that you're you're still that is that is a different form of, I guess, quote, dysregulation that comes from parts who are are being activated by the past. So I want you all to know that that that shutdown, that numbness, that ambivalence towards sex and towards your partner is really common with this.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

That's right. That's right. So my mind drifted over. I saw a little uh pop-up, but I I was following you. If you notice my attention wandering there. No, that's fine. But um okay. Um Yeah, so so so here's the thing. Like everything that you're the everything that you're experiencing with relationship OCD can be explained in science. That's right. Like it's it's you know, it it's it's not the voice of God. It's it's actually quite psychological and and and and scientific in terms of uh the way that our body operates and the way that our nervous system operates. So, which is good news because it's not like you know, it's not like God or whatever you want to think of it, or the universe or whatever is is sending you a sign that you're in a wrong relationship. Now, okay, so let's talk, let me get back on intimacy. So um, so all of this is a response to safety. Uh it's a safety thing. So so we have to investigate, and we talked about like you know, seen and known. Um uh uh growing becoming securely attached has certain ne needs that need to be met. Need to be seen and known, loved and valued, uh safe, safe and secure. Uh I had a I had a list. There's all these things that need to happen. If there's can you hear that? Can you hear the whippersnipper?

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Okay. Right on time. Right on time, there's a fucking whippersnipper right next to my ear. Um so there's all these criteria that need to be met in order to become securely attached. And when we're securely attached, we trust, we have a trust in our essentially others and ourselves to where we expect things to uh to go well. Now, some people might say, well, that would seem stupid. Why would we naively expect things to go well? Well, if you expect things to go well, then you have trust in the world and security within yourself. If things don't go well, then you're more able to wait, where's how did that go? If you trust things that are going to go well and they don't, then you know that like I don't know, where I had that train of thought.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Yeah, I think where you're where you're going, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think where you're going is like trust things to to to go well, trust things to be okay, especially if you're in a healthy relationship, right? Like practicing that. And and if they don't, because obviously you are not psychic, you can't predict the future, trust that you can handle it. That's the key here is a lot of us and a lot of our parts do not trust that we can handle rejection, disappointment, pain of any kind. We live our lives in avoidance of that. And what what we we want to teach you to, you know, the phrase is in somatic work at least is like we're not we're not necessarily trying to make you feel better, we're trying to get make you better at feeling. And that is really true. You will suffer less as you widen your capacity for discomfort because then when that then the uncertainty, like panic, doesn't really matter because you're like, yeah, you know, I really hope things go well, but if they don't, I know that I'll be okay. I know that I'll survive. And if you have parts that don't believe that, that's something to look into and that's normal. Especially if you had a volatile relationship with your caregivers in some way. It doesn't even have to have been super extreme or physical abuse or these things that people think of, right? It's like if you had inconsistent care, inconsistent emotional, you know, all the things that um Alex and I talking about, if you're a prevent parentified child, all of those are gonna create the sense of like, I don't know if I'll be okay. And once you cultivate that, you will have a resilience like you've never known. Because you know that really no matter what happens, I'll live. I'll be all right.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, and so with intimacy, like how that relates to intimacy is is um, you know, you'll instead of being like, oh God, I don't know, I don't know if this is gonna go perfectly. I don't know if I don't know if I'm in the right mindset for this. I don't want to lie to my partner because then they'll get hurt, or if it's awkward, then it'll be weird for both of us, and then we'll be disappointed. Maybe I'll show them this side of myself and I'll get rejected. Instead of that, you'll be like, well, if something uncomfortable happens, we'll get I'll be okay, I'll deal with it. I'll be uncomfortable and then I'll move on, right? Like that's the other side of it, or we'll talk about it. There's options. There's options.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

I will I will be able to talk to my partner about it, uh, and we'll be able to resolve it. If we can't resolve it, I'll be okay. We'll try to figure that out. We'll go to couples therapy. If that fails, I can go to my parents. Now, this is if you had secure parents, right? Or right, but or I'll go to my friends, like if you have a support network. There's options, you're not going to be alone in it. But a lot of us with ROCD, we had to deal with a lot of things on our own. So we believe that we don't we can't handle because no one was ever there to help us handle things. So when we're doing in our work, we're we're doing work that we where we can internalize this sense of love and stability from print print parent figures, ideal parent figures or the self, to where we grow the capacity to learn how to deal and cope with emotions, right? Now, practically, let's talk about some other things about intimacy because it's not just about it's a lot of it's about the past, but but a lot of it is about safety within relationship. So, because if you're with a partner that, you know, and and you know, through through uh through porn and all our culture and stuff, right? Like especially men, uh, we have this, and the through the patriarchy and everything, the male-dominated society, a lot of men have have this way of uh of sex or intimacy which which is dominating, which is objectifying, which is control and power over, that's not safe for women. And I shouldn't, I I mean you're you're a woman, Grace. I shouldn't speak for women, but like there's this experience that if if you are in a situation with someone where you are feeling like there's not that level of connectivity or safety or treating the body, your body with respect, then that can also lead to shutdown. So there might be like, oh, I feel like I need to perform, I feel like I need to please my partner, I feel like I need to do this, so I need you know, I maybe I fake getting off so that he knows that I'm like giving him what he wants. Like, if there's this people pleasing and this right, which is again sacrificing our authenticity for attachment, then there will not be safety. So if you feel like you can't say no during sex, if you or intimacy, if you feel like you need to give them what they want, that can lead to shutdown as well. So there needs to be a mutual consensus and there needs to be uh um consent to where we're both able to communicate in a way where we're telling each other what we like and what we don't like, and that needs to be respected so that there can be a safe way of being sexually, emotionally, whatever, intimate with one another. That's very, very important because some of you might be like there might be a piece of that where yes, you have intimacy issues that are a result of uh being rejected in the past, but if you clear up the safety piece around how I feel good in interacting with you, then that might be enough to be able to be intimate and feel a little bit better doing it.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I think that's a really good point. I think something you're not going to be able to avoid with intimacy, though I know some of you might want to, is talking about it with your partner. You have to talk about it. It's I know it's uncomfortable, I know it's hard, but it's so, I mean, in my, I'm not sure, Alex, how much of your personal journey you want to share, but I can share just a couple tidbits of like with mine is that like that was a huge unlock for my partner and I is like having the uncomfortable conversations about it because I was assuming all of these things about him and what he needed in sex and what he wanted that actually weren't true. You know, some of them were like partially, but not I didn't understand the nuance. I was projecting a lot onto him because of how you just described like men are in society, feeling like it was my duty to do it a certain number of times because of that, all those things. And we had this conversation, we were both like, I did not even understand where you were coming. Like both of us were like, I was guessing. And this happens in relationship, even if you don't have ROCD, right? There's some level at some point of guessing what the other person wants, and then you're both like, why what is what are we doing? You you have to have that conversation, and it and at first, you know, it's gonna feel scary, and if it feels really activating, you can do it in little bursts. You can have, okay, we're gonna talk about this for three minutes, you know, and then and then we're gonna move on to something else. But you practicing talking about it, and that creates, like Alex said, more openness in the moment, in intimacy, because you've had this conversation, you've let that person see you and understand you and what you need. And something else I want to bring up, because I think what you said is so true, Alex. Like, I think because of porn, because of the patriarchy, because of society, like there is this like objectification of women, of course, and some men think that that's what women want. So they might go at it that way. And unless you tell if you are a woman, right, unless you tell your partner that that's not what you want, they're not gonna know. I have also seen the flip side, and I just want to bring this in in case there's anyone listening who experiences this, and that is because of the patriarchy and because of porn, and because of what men, you know, the Me Too movement, all of these things that have happened, there are men who, and I've worked with clients with partners like this, I've had partners like this, who are actually very hesitant, who have their own wounds around, and they just don't, they don't want to objectify, and they don't, they're like, Am I doing the right thing? And they will ask, like these types of partners might ask many questions. Does this feel good? Are you doing and they are hyper-vigilant themselves and people and they're anxious, people pleasing themselves. And for someone like you who might have these attachment wounds, that makes your questioning and your spinning even worse. Because you're like, you're like, um, I don't know, I've heard from clients, and I honestly have felt this myself. I don't really want to have to tell you what to do every single step of the way. I want you to be in the moment with me. And if your partner makes it a hundred percent about you and your pleasure, that's a lot of pressure on you and your part. And that has happened before where I'm like, I actually, just as much as your partner enjoys you getting off, you might enjoy your partner also, right? So if it's ever either way, one-sided sex is about your partner or sex is always all about you, that's not gonna feel balanced. You're not gonna be able to relax in that, right? So I think both of these extremes, what Alex talked about, what I just talked about, might be happening. And all it might take is a conversation of like what is happening during sex for you? What's happening for me? How can we strike the balance a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Yeah, you need to talk about it. You will not get through your relationship without talking about things. My partner and I have uh been, we probably have thousands.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

We still my partner and I still talk about it regularly.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Yeah, you have to, and you will for the end till the end of time. And if you avoid those tough conversations, you're fucked because you're not laying things on the table. So you need to tell each other what feels good and what doesn't feel good and what's on your mind. And I think also there's a there's a big problem around feeling entitled to to like some people, whether maybe you or your partner, whoever it is, we feel like we have this entitlement to sex. Like I should be having sex, you should be giving me sex. Like it's so ridiculous. I I had that too. I was like, my partner, we should be doing it so so much often, and I have these sexual needs.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

I assume that that's how my partner feels. Yeah, I assume that about my partner, and for me, it wasn't fully true, like it was partly true, but not fully true, and I wouldn't have known that if I didn't talk to him about it. So I'm it's great that we've been on that Alex that you that you like you aren't living as a man and you've had this experience and I'm living it because we were kind of both sides of this. And whether you're a man or a woman, like Alex said, you might have you might have felt that way that you're entitled to it.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

And and and the thing is, is is if you're entitled, if you feel entitled to someone doing something for you, that's wrong. That you're not bad for it, but it's it's a wrong way because we it's it's we're we're using somebody. We're we're we're we're we're projecting our unmet needs on it. That's right, expecting them to fulfill our desires when they can't. That's not safe. So I had to uh you know, obviously uh throughout the years, you know, I was able to shift that, but um you your your partner doesn't owe you anything. That's right. You no one owes. Uh and and if if you have a partner that is does that, or you feel like, oh my god, like I feel like I need to give them what they want or whatever, or they get huffy puffy when we don't have sex or something, problem that you need to address. If you're yeah, you gotta say, I'm not okay with that, you have to have boundaries. So boundaries with intimacy are really important too. Like you need to be able to advocate for yourself and what's important for you. If you can't do that, if you feel scared of setting boundaries with your partner around intimacy or sex, then you gotta clear that up because you can't you can't be intimate with someone. And and risk opening up if you don't have those boundaries. That's right. So those conversations need to happen in Zap.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

They do. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you just a short anecdote about this. Is if you're I I like what you said about your partner getting like huffy puffy if you don't, if you don't have sex, right? This is a really common experience. This is really com I mean, I think I've had this with every single partner I've been with because I'm the low libido partner, right? I have responsive desire. I don't have spontaneous desire, right? These are two desire types. We probably don't have time to go into them, but Google them, right? Because you might be someone with responsive desire if you ever feel like, you know, once we start, I kind of get into it, but I really struggle to start, or I really never feel motivated to start. You're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. You, you, the shame that you're putting that that you're letting in, right, is making it harder. It's okay to not always feel like it right away. Your partner might have spontaneous desire. That's the dynamic I'm in. And you just learn how to work with it. And oh my gosh, I feel like we need a part two. But what I want to say is I want to say that say you're noticing, let's just give a quick practical example. You're noticing that your partner gets like huffy puffy, or they're expressing disappointment, or maybe their face, their body language, they're if you're if you're saying no to sex or you're stopping sex or whatever it is. That you know, to Alex's point, is a quote red flag, is a like ding-dye ding-ding. Not that your relationship is wrong and you need to break up. That you have to talk about it. Do not let that go. And what what happened for me when I talked about it with my partner was that sex for him, though of course, you know, for men it's a whole different ball game than it is for women, right? Like physically, um, it feels really good. He craves it in a way that I don't necessarily write totally, but actually, what he ended up sharing after multiple conversations, and I think he'd be fine when he's sharing those, um, is that is that it is a time when he feels really wanted by me, desired by me. When he feels like a man, like a provider, like a like a like stronger when he feels sexy, right? So is it my responsibility to make him feel all those things? No, no, no, it's not. But it wasn't actually about what I thought. It wasn't actually about like, oh, he just wants to get off, and like that's all, and like he's mad because he can't have an orgasm, like blah blah blah. That is that's actually not what it was about. It's about like this, this like this disappointment within him and this like sadness of like she doesn't want me, she doesn't think I'm hot, she doesn't want to be physical with me. And that that wasn't true, right? We so we talked about it, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I understand now. Let me tell you why I'm rejecting you. It's actually has nothing to do with your body, it's this. And he's like, Oh, I didn't know that. I thought it was me, I thought it's because I've gained weight, I thought it's because of whatever. And so the conversation, you won't believe how much it changes. Even just one conversation sometimes can make a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Exactly. Love that. That's a good ending point, Grace. And for anyone who uh struggles in the in this department, uh the course and community is great for this because there'll be practices and exercises and weekly uh support groups uh and uh an app that I'm developing, ROCD Companion app, which is pretty good. I think you tried it, Grace. Um, that guides you through IFS sessions, but also breaks down RCD and allows you to do parts mapping, allows you it's there's a symptom identifier in there. Uh there's uh there's a childhood snapshot where you fill out a form. It kind of snapshots your childhood and what cre the things that uh uh uh contributed to you developing RCD. Lots of tools in there so that I'm developing and that should be done by the end of the month. So you'll get access to that. Uh really great community, all for 37 bucks. Can you believe it, Gross? $37 a month.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yes, and Alex Alex does three out of the four support groups. So he does the afternoon Thursday support groups, and I lead the morning Thursday support group um on the second Thursday. So yeah, join us. We'd love to have you there. There's obviously no like, you know, you don't have to sign on for a specific number of months. You can just sign on.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Just cancel anytime. Come in and try it out. Uh the link will be in the the uh podcast description here below, so check it out. Um, and we will see you all in the next episode. Thank you so much for tuning in and uh for for listening, and we'll see you all very soon.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Bye, everybody.