For Love We Heal Podcast
If you are struggling with constant doubt and anxiety about whether you are in the right relationship, you’re not alone, and you’re in the right place! In this podcast, we delve into the complexities of Relationship OCD (ROCD), a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder characterized by intrusive thoughts, chronic doubt, reassurance-seeking, rumination, and intense anxiety and avoidance that show up in our romantic relationships.
I'll help you explore and understand the deeper roots of your Relationship OCD (ROCD), and ultimately, how to heal it. We will discuss topics like fear of making the wrong choice, fear of making mistakes, lack of attraction, numbness, hyper-fixation on flaws, breakup urges, guilt, jealousy, and more!
We examine how ROCD overlaps with attachment styles, especially fearful-avoidant attachment, and how our childhood wounds are at the core of this issue.
You’ll learn how to tell the difference between intuition and anxiety, healthy vs unhealthy relationships, and what real healing from Relationship OCD looks like, beyond coping. Through IFS (Internal Family Systems), Attachment-based Healing, and what I call the Conscious Relationship Framework, this podcast offers a compassionate, non-pathologizing roadmap for healing your way to love, peace, and wholeness.
For Love We Heal Podcast
ROCD & Your Anxious Partner
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
If you have Relationship OCD, you may also have a partner with Anxious Attachment. When your partner has Anxious Attachment, your tendency to feel responsible for their well-being increases, which leads to more anxiety, avoidance, and distress. In this episode, Grace and I break down this dynamic and how to navigate it effectively!
Join the Relationship OCD (ROCD) Course & Community! Only $47 per month!
https://www.rocdcourse-forloveweheal.com/sales-page-6756-8810-8850-8583
Want one-to-one support for healing Relationship OCD (ROCD) from the root? Book a free discovery call to find out more about how we can help! https://forloveweheal.com/relationshipocd-therapy/
Questions? Email me: alex@forloveweheal.com
Check out my Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/forloveweheal/
It's great. It's great. Hey, Grace.
SPEAKER_00Good morning. Hello.
SPEAKER_01Good morning. Welcome back, everyone to the For Love We Heal podcast. Do you like my uh my my radio voice? Welcome back to the to the For Love We Heal podcast. Yeah. It is it is September 24th. Um so uh I I wanted to uh I want to talk to Grace and all of you about something that I don't usually talk about and I haven't talked about, and I I wish that I had talked about it sooner, um, because it's a common issue and um and it's it's just it impacts a lot of people. And you know, I always say like you, you know, most people with ROCD, and this is true to some degree, most people with ROCD enter a relationship with someone who is kind, caring, and respectful, right? And they're secure, and you know, and they're and we wonder, well, then why are we struggling so much if we're with someone that's kind, caring, and respectful? And some people would say they're the best person that I've ever been with, and you know, they're everything that I could have wanted, you know, minus some people that say, you know, I wish my partner were smarter, more intelligent, all these things. Like there might be things about your partner that you know you wish were different for maybe more egotistical reasons. However, you know, generally these partners that we enter a relationship with when we have ROCD are good people. They're well-intentioned, they're not abusive, they're respectful of you, they want to be with you, they want to get to know you, they want to form a relationship and a bond, and they are committed. Now, what I haven't talked about, and this is so important, is that sometimes these partners have anxious attachment. Right. Why is that problematic? Well, if your partner is kind, caring, respectful, considerate, etc., and they are anxiously attached, which means they are kind of they are clingy, they might be somewhat needy, they might be leaning on you emotionally to sort of like help deal with their own loneliness. They might be afraid of being abandoned or being left. They might have this sort of energy that that's that's looking to you or you know, to save them in a sense from their own unmet needs. And if that is the case, if your partner is more anxious leaning in their attachment, first of all, don't freak out because it's it's not a deal breaker. Like my partner had anxious, you know, more anxious attachment when we first got together. Um, more specifically because I was avoidant, like she's secure leaning, but she also has a lot or has slash had because she's done a lot of work on herself, a lot of loneliness and stuff. And um, and when I would get into my avoidant attachment, it would trigger her anxious parts to then be like, you know, not necessarily be needy, but hers manifested as more anger. Like so she would, you know, criticize and and you know get angry because I was pulling back in an attempt to get me to be different so that I could show up in a way where she felt more secure. Now, I was showing up in ways that were detrimental to the safety of the container of the relationship. Like I was looking at other women, I was falling into limerence, I was doing all these things that you know nobody wants in a relationship, or at least people that are in monogamy. However, when we have anxious leaning partners and they are clingy and we can feel their desire to sort of, we can feel their their longing and their own emptiness and their own sort of outsourcing for happiness, it's really activating for us because first of all, no one wants that. No one wants to sort of be handed. I'll do a little, um, this is gonna be on YouTube, which I will post today. I'm gonna do a little example. So if you're not on YouTube, I am I'm gr grabbing these little figurines that I have to do a little example here. But um if you're listening, just see if you can follow along. Right. So you get into a relationship with someone, right? And let's just say, you know, uh this is the person that's anxiously attached. So they've got this little inner child that they're holding. And what they do, is this in full frame, Grace?
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Yep.
SPEAKER_01What they what happens is is they've got this really insecure child that inside of them, the inner child that feels uh you know lonely or abandoned or whatever. And they go, Hey, they enter a relationship and they say, Hey, I've I want you to look after her for me. And and you know, because and then this and then this person usually says if they're avoidant, they would say, Well, I don't really want to be doing that. That doesn't feel good for me. And then if you're not doing, if you're not doing a good enough job taking care of my little one that I gave you, then I'm going to start feeling mad or insecure. And and then this person starts to feel the weight of that and the pressure of that, and they don't, they're not responsible for this inner child. But this one uncon this anxious partner unconsciously puts you in sort of the caretaker role for this inner child that this person with anxious attachment um also doesn't know how to deal with. I don't know how to deal with my own insecure inner child, so I'm gonna give it to you, give her to you to take care of, and I expect you to do a really good job taking care of her, or if not, I'm gonna start getting upset, or I'm gonna start this. So the partner with ROCD has because there's parentification wounds, and because there's this sort of uh feeling of responsibility and not wanting others to be upset with you, then you feel like you have to take care of this child, and these avoidant the avoidant parts come up and say, Ew, get me out of here. This isn't feeling good for me. Ew, take this child back. Yeah, and then you get into this dynamic where this child is being passed back and forth when really it's this person's responsibility to hold on to their own child, take responsibility for it. And then the ROCD partner can start to relax because, oh, okay, now I don't feel so responsible. I'm getting this data and feedback that they are then taking responsibility for their part and so on. Does that make sense, Grace?
SPEAKER_00It does. It does make sense. And and the only thing I'll add is that what I have noticed in my own patterns in relationship, in my clients' patterns, is that if someone is anxious leaning, right? There's there's a I'm using my hands now. If you're on YouTube, you can see I wish I had figurines. I need to get little Oh, I have some. Wait. Okay, here. Yay! Yay. So, like, yeah, so if there's an anxious partner that is coming towards, coming towards, coming towards, trying to pull you towards, trying to pull you towards. There is a there is a magnetism that happens where it makes you, your avoidant tendencies worse and worse, right? Worse not being negative, right? I'm I'm speaking neutrally here, but like more intense. The more someone comes towards you, the more you're backing away. And it can, it can get so intense that you back all the way away. And maybe that's happened to you before, right? You decide to leave the space because the magnetism is so intense. And so what I don't do couples work, I know you do, Alex. So you've probably seen this play out in real time. But what I try to work with my clients on is not only encouraging their partner to work on their own side of the street, work on their own stuff, work on their own inner wounding, right? But balancing the pattern. Like naturally, because it takes two to change that magnetism pattern, right? It can't, the burden can't be only on one person or the other. The anxious person starts working on themselves and they don't pull as hard towards the avoidant person. The avoidant person works on themselves, continues to challenge themselves, heal their own parts so they don't feel the pull in the other direction. And it slowly kind of brings these two people back in balance together more. And there might be times where the anxious partner pulls a little bit, the avoidant partner pulls a little bit, but it's not so extreme that it's throwing off the dynamic in your relationship, creating all this panic in your system.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_00You maybe have been, Alex, we we've done a couple episodes on like anxious avoidant attachment. You might be someone, you likely are, if you have ROCD tendencies, you might be someone who's experienced both of both ends of this. Like, Alex, have you ever tried to pursue someone who's avoidant? And how did you feel?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Anxious, right? Like, oh yeah, I need it. I need, and you're the one who's pulling towards. So it's it's really influenced a lot of the time for those of us with attachment wounds by how the other person is behaving. You've maybe been in both positions. If you're working with Alex and I, if you're listening to this, you're likely on the avoidant side right now, but you've probably experienced both in your life.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because because people with ROCD have a fearful avoidant or disorganized attachment style. So you may, you may even be aware that when your partner gets upset or when they start pulling away, you start to freak out, and then you're doing whatever it takes to keep this person in your life. So that's where you flip into your own anxious tendencies, right? So what we want is a balance of internal work. So if your partner is more anxiously attached, um, then you'll want to identify how that impacts you, what it brings up in you. Because what can also happen, and this happens with, you know, uh a certain fraction of people too, is that the anxious partner wants more commitment so and expresses that they want to move forward with the relationship. Because you're afraid of letting them down and hurting them, you agree, but parts of you don't want to, so you say yes, your yes overrides your no internally. When your yes overrides your no to a certain degree, then there can be this internal rebellion that happens that goes that that I didn't make an empowered choice, yeah. A choice that came from my authenticity, and there's parts that not that your partner necessarily did anything wrong or that they're wrong for you, but just because you didn't feel like because um and a client uh recently put it, I think it's a book called Running with the Wolves or something. This client said that there's this instinct injury, she called it, the book calls it. When there's an instinct injury, and this happens with parentification and other, you know, emotionally, we we uh we learn that our wants and needs and desires aren't important, and we s we sort of caretake the other. And when we don't when we're sort of instinct injured, when our intuition is sort of exiled away and pushed away, and we don't listen to what our our no is, then anything that resembles that in the future, like if we feeling like we don't want to be in something and we say yes anyway, there can be this pushback, like this intense anger and this internal rebellion of I'm gonna keep you, I'm gonna say no to you just because I feel like I need to say no to you because I said yes when I meant no. So there needs to sometimes oftentimes be this work on the the the sacrificing the authenticity for attachment where around this instinct injury and honoring ourselves and knowing what we want and what we need so that we can say yes in a in a way that feels good, right? That's right.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, and and I want to point out that you know we're not always talking about because I can hear people's parts um because I've heard it in myself and in clients, like I can hear people's parts being like, oh my gosh, so are you saying I'm abandoning myself all every time I stay when I want to leave the relationship? No, yes and no, right? We're we're talking about parts. What what I'm what I've noticed, and this was my big breakthrough. I think I've talked about on this podcast uh before. This was my big breakthrough in my ROCD work in my own relationship, was that you, your parts that are pulling away and pulling really hard for you to leave, breakup urges, those types of feelings and thoughts often are not taken seriously. And when I say taken seriously, I don't mean followed, right? I don't mean like I do whatever this part says. I mean taken seriously. I remember one day I was driving in my car, crying, super dysregulated, feeling like a huge surge of breakup urges in ROCD. And I remember stopping the car and saying out loud, I will consider breaking up. I'll consider it. And I meant it. I did mean it. I I, for the first time after a year of like, oh my God, I have to push this part away, push this part away, push this part away. I wish it would go away. Listen to podcasts, read books, how can I make it go away? Yeah. I I listened to it for the first time. And that's scary for some of your parts. I don't want to say that it's easy to really listen to that part because you'll have parts being like, no, that's gonna lead to disconnection. I'm scared. Don't listen to that part. But this more.
SPEAKER_01Or if I listen to it, then that means I'm going to leave. And I don't want to leave it.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna do it. Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01But there's a listening, taking it seriously, as you're saying, doesn't mean, you know, actually doing what it wants you to do. That's right. It's just listening to it and understanding why it feels the need to do what it wants to do and what it's trying to protect you from.
SPEAKER_00And the actions that you take likely won't look like breaking up with your partner. What they could look like, I'll just give you some quick examples, are not taking responsibility for your partner's emotions as much. Maybe it's even less nebulous than that. Maybe you are doing all the, I'm just making things up, but maybe you're doing all the cooking and cleaning in your home for your partner because you don't want them to feel burdened by chores. Maybe you are, you know, for both of you, doing all the communication with family. Uh, maybe you're doing all the planning. Maybe you are like those of us with these tendencies, we tend to also be overdoing things for our partner because it's a safety thing, right? For us. So look at because you might, you might be, and this is not your fault, right? There's no fault here. It's it's all just parts, but you might have parts that have been compelling you to overgive. Where are those areas that you can be like, look, I need you to handle this? I had many conversations with my partner like this. I cannot do this for you anymore. I need you to do this for yourself. And usually your partner, they might be so used to you doing it that they're like, oh, no, I can do it. Whatever it is, right? So so there are there are different ways that you can act on this part. And one of those ways Alex talked about in the beginning of this is talking to your partner about them doing their own inner work. That's one of the things you can need and you can ask for. You are not doing it. I want to make that very clear. You are not sitting down and trying to do parts work with your partner if you're feeling this way. That is not gonna help, right? Your partner needs to go, they need to do their own exploration and their own work. So that's something you can ask for.
SPEAKER_01Yep. You know, I what else do I want to say? I think too, like, if you know, with the with the the the longing for, you know, if your partner is looking to you to save them from their own feelings or to make them happy or to fulfill, you know what I mean, then um, like for example, you know, my partner and I, we had to go, we went to we've done a lot of couples therapy, but it was so relieving for me. Like, you know, there was this thing I would game a lot. I probably talked about that. Like, I that this has been sort of my escape since I was a kid. I game.
SPEAKER_00Are you excited about the new Diablo?
SPEAKER_01I saw Diablo 5. I actually am not very excited because I honestly I would have been. I I've been in the past, but I'm sort of those those games require so much time and grinding that it's like, but you know, I'm a Diablo fan still, so I think it should be interesting.
SPEAKER_00And those are that's that was that's your one of your things that you would do a lot. You've talked about this before. Oh, yeah, and that you still do.
SPEAKER_01I played Diablo as a kid for like 13 hours a day, and and you know, because it was my escape from the from the uh my anxiety growing up and stuff. So but so you know, I I would game a lot and and Dion, of course, wanted quality time together. She wanted to sit on the couch together. I was gaming every night, and she was starting to get frustrated. And she wasn't just getting frustrated just because she wanted to spend quality time, although, you know, she was getting frustrated because she was starting to feel more lonely. And all I was hearing was her anger. I was hearing like you're doing you're doing this and you're doing this all the time, and you know, and we're not spending enough time together, and blah blah blah. That's what I so I was hearing criticism. So I was getting on the defense, and I was saying, Well, first of all, I don't like being talked to that way, and I wouldn't say that before either. Like, I think we have to learn how to set boundaries too, because I go when when Dion would get angry, I would get good at saying, I'm not actually okay with being spoken to that way. I'm happy to have a conversation about it, but I want to have a conversation from a calm place. So until that happens, I'm gonna do my thing, and then we can come back together when you're calmer and we can have a conversation.
SPEAKER_00And she would calm down because she wanted to connect, she didn't her her criticism was an attempt to connect, and she I was gonna say, underneath anger and criticism is almost always sadness, loneliness, longing, need like something else. Yes, right.
SPEAKER_01So and that gets me to my point when, and this is speaks to you're going to couples therapy or your partner doing the work, because I that her desire for me to you know be there and and like and and sort of take me away from my hobby and the thing that I like. I mean, I was getting into my own like righteousness about why I should be gaming and why I should be able to game. Once I heard in couples therapy that she was lonely, it was the first time I heard it, I immediately softened and I relaxed and I understood. Because in that moment, when your partner, as I said, if you're looking at the screen and you're on YouTube, when your partner, when you finally go, I'm gonna give this back to you now, okay, and you're gonna take care of her. And this and your partner says, Okay, I'm I know I actually have this loneliness. I know that it's my job to heal that in me and look after and parent that part of me. Uh because now I know what it's about. Now I know that first of all, she has loneliness and she was trying to give it to me. And unconsciously, somewhere I knew, I didn't want it because I took care of my mom emotionally. So not only do we not want to take care of our partners because we're not they're not infants, they are and we aren't their parent, but also too, most of us with ROCD have parentification wounds. We had to parent a parent. We do not want it is repulsive. The idea of having to parent another child in a in another dynamic is terrible terribly re you know repulsive in a sense, or another adult in any way, right?
SPEAKER_00Like it's just and and I wanna I make the distinction between I love your figurines, by the way. Um, but like we're obviously not talking about an actual child. Like if you share a child together, that's a whole different thing.
SPEAKER_01But we are talking about yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm talking about very obvious, but my like my yeah, my black and white brain was like, we shouldn't make that distinction then. We don't mean like a real kid.
SPEAKER_01We mean like I'm glad you brought it up. It's not a real kid, it's the it's the inner child within the adult. That's right. So because my mom leaned on me emotionally a And I felt responsible for making sure she was happy so that I was I was experiencing safety. As a kid, I don't have the capacity to do that, so I scrounge up whatever things I can do to ensure that my mom is regulated. When an anxious partner comes along and is essentially doing the same thing, you're like, get me out of this situation because it it feels it feels bad and it's not it's not right. It's not the way it should be. So my point is is when Dion took responsibility for her loneliness, and she spoke to it. She spoke it. Hey, I'm feeling lonely. Well, if she's on the couch and I'm gaming and she says, Hey, I'm lonely, well, I don't feel defensive anymore. Right. Because I'm like a totally different conversation than what you were having. And she's not saying take care of my loneliness, she's saying, My you know, essentially, my I have a lonely part. I'm like, Oh, I can I can be there too. Like, I'm not gonna save you from your loneliness, but I'd love to spend some time with you because I care about you and I care about your inner child. Yeah, and I love your inner child, and I think that she should have gotten all those needs met. And and even though it's not my job, I love to be with you in a way where she feels good.
SPEAKER_00So you see how that's different, everybody who's listening, like how that is different than taking the responsibility of the healing, right? Like being with is different than working for working on, working for something, right? And something I want to call out is because this was my problem, is it was hard for me to know because I'm so used to taking care of other people's inner children, adults, inner children, my parents, inner children, to know if I'm taking over or just supporting. Like it's gonna take a little practice for you to really notice what is it like, and you can use your body and you can use your your parts work that you've been practicing. How does it feel right now to do this thing for my partner, to talk to my partner about this thing? Right. Kind of using those internal cues to tell, like, am I taking over? Or am I just being with, like Alex said? If your partner says, I had to, I still work on this. If my partner comes home from work, is like, I'm feeling really depressed. I'm just having like all week I've been feeling depressed. My immediate reaction is, let's sit down. Sometimes I'll um I'll be like, Do you want to do some parts work? And I we don't, uh I've like moved away from that, but I'd be like, Okay, well, tell me, um, yeah, let me see how I can get you out of this. Have you tried this? Have you tried that? That is different than offering a hug if I feel that and being like, gosh, I'm sorry, I know how that feels. It's a heavy feeling, right? How does that feel for you? Oh, it feels heavy, it feels lonely. Oh my gosh. Well, I want you to know I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm right next to you. See how that's different than like inquiry? And like, I have clients and I was like this too, so no shame at all, right? I'm not trying to put shame on anyone who stay up all night talking to their partner and and arguing and strategizing, and they're texting about it and they're talking about it, and they're like, we gotta figure this out, we gotta figure this out together, together, together. And it's like, you might actually need to do less of that. That might actually be your medicine, is like offering your emotional support, your empathy to your partner because you know how it feels to feel, and then backing off in a way, right? Then then not getting into the strategic nitty-gritty of their inner world and your inner world and how they're interacting. If you're in couples therapy, great, because you have a witness who is skilled in holding that space. But I have clients, and I've been this client, who just spend so many hours, especially late at night, y'all. No good conversations about this happen after 8 p.m., okay? Feet on the floor conversations is how I like to say it. But like I just have clients who will just go all night with their partners, and that adds to the burden of your part, right? Of this part of you that doesn't want to hold that. So yeah, I'll stop there because I can go to the bottom. Doesn't want to hold it. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And doesn't want to feel the helplessness of it being unresolved as well. That's right. Because sometimes you just gotta leave it. Like you you hear, I hate this. I and I heard someone say this too, like, um, which kind of made me think about it. But like, don't go to bed angry, which is I think is just a ridiculous thing.
SPEAKER_00That's go to bed, eh?
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Listen to the burden that puts on you, right? Don't go to bed angry. As someone like me who has like hyper responsibility tendencies, right? That makes me feel like, ooh, I better, I better make sure this gets figured out before bed. You are in relationship with someone else who should be holding half of the responsibility, right? It is not up to you to make sure you don't go to bed angry. I love I I totally agree. That's always that phrase has always been like, ugh.
SPEAKER_01I know.
SPEAKER_00And if you have parts that are because something I want to point out about that is you might have parts, you might be a person who, or you have parts who are like, I can't sit with uncertainty of something being unresolved. And I understand that. I I really empathize with that. It's really hard to let things sit. And I want you to look at that. I want you to feel what uncertainty feels like. I want you to notice what it brings up in you to allow something to sit, because that's gonna point you also towards wounds that you have and things that you need to heal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm. Um so the the the really what the invitation is here is to is to identify that is uh if your partner has anxious tendencies and you feel responsible for them. Like this is another huge thing around like you know, if your partner is sort of like you know, this ha holding this needy child out, and it's like you know, they might also not be aware of it too, right? Like so, so like they might be all like a lot of anxiously attached people operate from this perspective that no, like other people should make me feel better.
SPEAKER_00We're in a relationship, this is your job. You we should, yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01So in that case, boundaries first, yes, I identify that that there is a tendency in me, and this is self-responsible language, this is how the boundary might sound. I have it, I I am noticing that I have a tendency in me to that feels like um uh looking that isn't doesn't feel okay when you're not okay. And and I feel I feel overwhelmed by my need that I create within myself to make sure that you're okay and you're happy. And I know that I need to work on that within myself because um I'm not when you're when you're sad or you're not okay with something that I do, or you're sort of, or whatever, or you're not okay with me taking space or whatever it is, I don't feel okay. So I need so I know there's more to that. Um, but but I there's boundaries that are needed in that case.
SPEAKER_00Um, and that's a great way to talk about it. Some of you may have never had a conversation like that with your partner about this. Like your conversations might be more like, you know, I just don't know what to do. I'm feeling avoidant, like I want to give you what you need, but I don't know. You know, you might need some more language. So like rewind this and listen to what Alex just said because it's why are you the way that you are?
SPEAKER_01We should you should be doing things differently, and I'm not responsible for taking care of you and things like that. That just doesn't land well.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't land well, and it makes that person more anxious and defensive, right? And again, I hear myself even taking responsibility for that person. So I just constantly have to check myself, but the way you just said it is so great because it's self-responsibility. It is yeah, this is how I feel, and this is what I know about me. I know that I default to trying to fix and take over. I'm working on that for myself and for the health of our relationship. So, you know, what I need is I need you to, I need you to, whatever it is, right? I need you to.
SPEAKER_01It would be really helpful for me.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, that's an even better way.
SPEAKER_01It would be really helpful for me. It would be really um, I would, it would mean a lot to me if you if you could share with me what comes up for you when you, you know what I mean, like like that language. It's a conversation between this, right? Because I notice that when this thing happens, I um I observe in you this, right? Right, like you get upset, or you you know, you say these words, and it's always objectible things. It's not like like it's better to say instead of you get upset, it's you say that you are tired, you you say you are tired of this, or you say this. Things that they actually say, not like Yeah, or yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or I notice that your tone changes, I notice that you cry. I know like try to objective things are definitely the most helpful, not assuming what how your partner feels, because that is another sneaky way that those of us with the with these tendencies take responsibility for a partner is mind reading. That is, I would say, that is one of my number one opportunities as a person and as a partner is assuming that I already know how my partner feels uh and how he's gonna react. I know that you, if you're you're probably, if you're listening to this, someone who is very sensitive and very perceptive, and you may guess correctly a lot of the time, and you gotta toss that out. You you gotta like, you know, you really need to allow, try to allow yourself to be surprised or to at least be curious enough to ask. Because part of the healing in this is your partner being autonomous and telling you how they feel, not agreeing with how you said they feel, right? There's a there's a difference there. And I yeah, I because I I still do that. And and Doug has to be like, you're mind reading, you're trying to, you're trying to figure out how I feel. Just ask me. Yeah, just ask me and I'll tell you, right? Like, like the you you really need to um that's something that you need to check yourself on in this in this process.
SPEAKER_01Yep, yeah. Another problem, another thing that's problematic about having an anxiously attached partner um for for oneself that has Ros D is it will make your fear of hurting them because there's this whole thing, I don't want to.
SPEAKER_00I was literally just thinking this. I'm so glad this is exactly where I was going. Amazing. I'm like, today we're like really locked in. We're locked in today.
SPEAKER_01Oh, good. I'm glad you think so. I'm glad you think so. You know, it's because if we if if if they lean on us emotionally and they don't have a good hold on their inner child, and they don't know how to soothe their inner child when they're feeling lonely or let down or whatever, then you're going to feel extra fearful of um of allowing yourself of of even of even listening or taking seriously your avoidant parts. Because like how I can't imagine doing something that is going to hurt my partner or make their life miserable. Well, the reality is is you don't make your your partner's life miserable and you don't hurt them. You act in a way that that they their response to that is they have parts of them that come up that feel something because of them, not you. That's right.
SPEAKER_00So because of their own wounds. It's not you that it's actually not you that is causing it. That is a good way to look at it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Was there is there is it breaking up a little bit? No. Oh, okay. You're breaking up a little bit, but as long as it's don't worry, just leave it. You sound fine. Yeah. Um, but so you know, like, especially if we had parents that would always say, you this or you that, or guilt trip you, or blame you, like like the narcissistic or emotionally immature leaning, uh, or the emotionally immature narcissistic leaning parent, you are an extension of them. So you know, they are using you for their supply of validation, of uh comfort in that. Yes. So you grew up feeling like you were actually responsible for them.
SPEAKER_00And they criticize you if you don't show up in the way that they want you to. Why aren't you go give mom a hug? Can't you see that she's upset? Or or um don't talk to your mother that way. She's your mother. Or it doesn't, you know, uh it doesn't, I don't it doesn't matter in extreme cases, not so extreme, maybe. Uh it doesn't matter what you want. She's your mom, he's your dad. We do these things for family. We show up for family, family above everything. All those things are are ways that, yeah, they're asking you to abandon what you want and how you feel in service of their emotions. Yeah, so you act never should have been that way.
SPEAKER_01No, and that's what we have to heal, you know. But but also, so that's why we actually believe that belief is taken on that I am responsible. That's right. And if I if I set a boundary or do this thing or say this thing, or God forbid, move a move out. That wasn't my situation, by the way. But some some some emotionally immature parents, parents, they'll have a fit if they're if their kid wants to move away from home or move, right? Oh, you're gonna move that far. You want to move that far. Oh no, you it's not gonna be great for you, or it's not gonna be good for you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, they make it, they don't make they don't tell it about even they don't even talk about themselves. Sometimes they'll be very sneaky and they'll be like, I don't know if you were like, you're more of like a small town person, you know. I don't know about the city for you. They your your parent made you feel like they know you better than you know yourself. Exactly. Right. And that's kind of where, yeah, when people listening to this are like, they always go back to this. Yeah, we do, because that's where this comes from. All of this stuff. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And kids are so empathetic and they don't want their parent to be upset, too. Right. Because not only are they empathetic, they care, but they also, it's so terrifying to see a parent not be okay. Like our son, like there, you know, there's moments where my partner would get overwhelmed by something, and she would just cry because she's not crying like, oh, look at what's being done to me. She's just like, oh my god, this is a lot. And our son would like hug her and be like, Oh, like he would not like to see her upset because he's like, Well, I, you know, what's he's like, am I safe?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is like my like my main safety source is like seems shaky, and that's no that's natural, right? For for a kid to feel that way.
SPEAKER_01So that's just the that's like the most benign example of it. Now, now take a parent who's literally like you are responsible to show up in a way that I feel okay, and then the child believes that, and so so then you get into a relationship with a partner that has an anxious attachment, and if you have avoidant things or breakup urges or thoughts or things about them, negative negative things that you're projecting onto them, you're like, okay, not only am I having these things, I'm a not only am I a terrible person for just thinking this, I know that this will impact them in such a degree that they will sort of crumble because they aren't securely attached, and and they so I'm extra so it just creates this extra layer of intense anxiety that's essentially an emotional flashback to the times in your life where you did actually feel responsible for a parent. So that work, that partner doing their work on the anxious attachment can and will provide a lot of relief to the system of someone with ROCD because once that partner can say, like, you can actually come to me with and tell me about the things that are going on for you, and I'm not gonna like you know pathologize it or get critical of you. It's such a relief to be able to be like, you know, I feel numb or I feel this or that. And you don't have to like lay it on, but you can at least be honest about your experience and say that you have you have avoid an attachment and say that you're fearful and stuff without them going, Oh, well, what does this mean about a relationship? Why would I want to be in a relationship with someone who's who's unsure about me and stuff like that? Right. Because if you're being met with that when you bring it up, you're having to stuff your emotions down and hide more and try to exist in a certain way that's not gonna upset your partner. The faking your reality is making your anxiety worse. You're trying to force a relationship in the way they want it, it doesn't work that way. It can't work that way.
SPEAKER_00And and I think I love what you said too about like, I don't remember exactly what you said at the beginning of just this part, but like it leads to a lot of like, you know, abandoning what you want and what you need and your preferences and things because you're afraid of hurting the person. That's what it was. You really you get this like, I am this monster, I am the avoidant one, I'm the problematic one. So I need to just like suck it up and kind of do whatever they need. And I've seen this, actually, it's just so interesting that we're talking about this, just like you said to me earlier, nothing's an accident, Alex. Like, I just have a few clients who are really going through this right now, something like this, where they will tell me things like, I won't use any specific example. I'll just kind of like, I'll iterate on examples I've heard where they're like, yeah, you know, like my partner is they they like I'll just make something, they chew super loudly and with their mouth open. And like I have, I I have a sensitivity to that, and it really it bugs me, especially like if we're watching a movie and uh, but like I'm just so crazy. I'm so like, what's wrong with me? So I've been trying these breathing exercises, I've been trying to like focus on something else, and I'm really struggling. I will be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. Can we tell them that we don't like that? Yeah, and they're like, oh no, but but but they don't know they're doing it, and that's that's an unreasonable request. No, it isn't. No, it isn't.
SPEAKER_01That's the question. Why? Why? Because it was unreasonable to a parent to correct them.
SPEAKER_00To correct them. That's right.
SPEAKER_01So to say you don't like something or to have a preference that's different from them or whatever it is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so you might have parts, because when I've worked on this with clients, they have parts they're like, well, how do I know if it's a reasonable or unreasonable request? This is the this is the part where you do have to take some risks. It is a little bit scary, right? You this is the part where your partner says, might say to you, like it's a conversation with your partner. But for those of you listening to this, I want you to err on the side of like, I don't know. What do you think about that, Alex? Because there are some unreasonable requests, right? Like, like our clients with attraction obsession, right? I need you to wear only this certain thing because it makes me anxious when you wear baggy clothes. I need you with unreasonable, unreasonable requests, right? But but the chewing, to me, reasonable to be like, yo, come on. Oh, yeah. Well, whatever. So, like, how do you tell? How would you answer that for a client? How do you tell if it's reasonable versus unreasonable? It's hard for me to answer that. I just kind of feel like I know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta get curious about what is your request, first of all. If it's if it's a character, if it's a personal an inherent personality characteristic or the way that your partner looks, and you are trying to change them to be something that you feel more secure with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_01Rather than rather than an uh a sort of um uh a sensory thing. Like, yeah, like what about like bad breaths? Chewing bad breath.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, bad breath. My person's gonna be like, yo, I need you to brush your teeth. This is I I can't like not enough. I mean, we've developed my partner and I have a relationship where we can speak that way. But in the beginning, I might have been like, hey, like, I know this is hard to bring up, like it's totally not your fault, but like I've just noticed this about your breath. And and they might feel embarrassment, and that's okay, y'all. Yeah, that's okay if they feel embarrassed, but they usually they might feel embarrassment, but usually they're grateful that you said something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you didn't just have bad breath. They don't want to know. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. But I've just had clients really list out all of these things about their partner that have been really hard for them, that they have said to themselves, well, I'm the avoidant one, I have ROCD, I need to just ignore this and I need to just cope with this. And I don't want y'all to I don't want those of you listening to this to do that. I want I want you're still in a relationship with someone. You can still have preferences, and especially I love what you said about sensory, Alex, like sensory things or things, schedule-related things.
SPEAKER_01There's all kinds of things touched, how you're talked to, right? Uh loud sounds, um preferences of how you would like certain things done. Like you still request, like, hey, you know, I it would be really it would be really helpful for me if you could put this thing in the fridge this way, because if it's that way, then I have to like reach around it and I have to reorganize things.
SPEAKER_00Reasonable request, totally.
SPEAKER_01Even even if it's even if it seems unreasonable, even if it's like I need things done a certain way, like you can still say, like, listen, like I understand that this is probably not unreasonable. But yeah, if if you could take just a little bit of extra time and focus on doing on putting like the olive oil on this side of the coffee machine, it would really help me because it just I get a lot of anxiety when things are out of place. And I'm gonna wait for the code.
SPEAKER_00And your partner, yeah, and your partner, you might be surprised. Your partner might be like, it might take them no effort to change the thing that they were doing, they're just not changing it because they don't know. Now, that was a really good example of reasonable requests, right? Unreasonable requests. I want to give just a couple more examples of that. Because, like Alex said, like personal, you know. I just really need you when we're at dinner with my parents. I need you to like talk about more intelligent things and I need you to be funnier. I need you to make more jokes. No.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or I need you to talk, or I need you to talk more, or I need you to talk less.
SPEAKER_00Because it's too, it's it's it's a per those are more personality related. Those are more trying to make you feel like you've picked someone who's more quote, right for you, right? You kind of have to do some inquiry of why do I need this, and and that will help you kind of guide you towards whether it's reasonable or unreasonable.
SPEAKER_01I think it's too, it's there's gray too, because like there are certain things like like for example, like um my dad, I I was always raised by uh, you know, my dad is a f a finance guy, and you know, he's a big money guy. So he always talked about money and he brags about money to to a certain degree. So I got that from him, and you know, we uh we'd go and have dinner with my my partner's uh family and stuff, and I will do that. Like, I'll be like, oh, I just bought this thing that was like whatever X amount of dollars. And I'm thinking like because I learned it was a way to bond, right? Like, oh, like, you know, success. I got this really cool thing, and yeah, or like I made this much money this month or whatever, because I've like this business part that's like business driven and likes to talk about money, and most people don't do that, and too, most people they look at yeah, because they'll they'll look at you like you're uh uh an asshole. Like, you know what I mean? People don't people don't take kind of lots of people they they're not fond of people bragging that they have money because you know, so but it's usually but I wanna like healing embodied um actually does a lot of like talks a lot about this like money. Yeah, but that's different.
SPEAKER_00And well, I wonder, well, I wonder, Alex, if yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01I'm sorry, I was I just get passionate about it. I think that No, tell me, tell me. Yeah. Well, there's a time and a place because like you know, I I think that in certain communities of other successful entrepreneurs, that's what you talk about.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, wait, let me clarify. No, totally, totally. What I was saying meant was the people who, when you're, when you're, I'm not even gonna use the word bragging, when you're sharing about how your business killed it this month and you got and it got 10k, and you're saying some people don't like that. I'm talking about those people. I'm talking about the people who hear it and say to you, maybe, hey, stop. Why are you nobody wants to hear this? They are the ones who have the money wound. Not you. They are the ones. So yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I meant. But anyway, I digress.
SPEAKER_01The example that I'm gonna give because like sometimes like your partner calling things out can be useful feedback, even though they are talking about certain personality characteristics. Like, for example, like my partner would be like just you know, like, don't talk about money so much, right? Now, is that where are we on that line? Because because I notice myself that for the majority of people, if I start talking about that, there's just a difference in in interaction that starts to happen. So, so I learned that there's a time and a place for it, whereas before I'm just doing it all the time because now that could that's their problem anyway. If they're gonna get triggered about my money thing, then whatever. But I do notice that it's not just getting celebration, it's not just about celebrating, it is about bragging, and it is I do notice within myself, it is about feeling superior in some way. So there is so Dion pointing it out is actually useful for me because I'm able to see how my wiring isn't appropriate in every scenario.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you it's it's nuanced, right? You got as the recipient of this feedback in this scenario, you got something out of it, you got some useful information out of it, and you're not gonna change your whole personality in the way you are. You're not gonna never talk about it. So, so I think what our point is here, if you are someone with an anxious partner and you are really erring on the side of not wanting to upset them because maybe you've vilified yourself because of your anxious avoidant attachment because of your ROCD, we want, we want to challenge you to have more conversations about your preferences, to, to bring yourself back into the relationship as an equal member, you know, as a member of the relationship who also gets to have preferences, even if you're someone who has a lot of shame around your avoidance, right? You still, you are still an equal member. And that's so that's like the challenge. I think with an anxious partner, if you are identifying that your partner might be anxious, that's one of the things I want you to take away from this. Is that I actually want you to, I want you to center yourself a little more sometimes, especially with sensory stuff. Man, I just have a couple clients that have been telling me about like sensory things, and I'm like, did you tell them you don't like that? And they're like, Well, no, I don't want to hurt them. You gotta you gotta tell them they can handle their hurt, they can handle it.
SPEAKER_01Just you're gonna have to like you will you will not even believe when you can be heard, when when you can say something, and you can own something that's important for you and a preference that you have in a way that's going to alleviate stress, and you speak for that, and you trust yourself to do it, and you own it, even if your partner doesn't like it, but you can hold a boundary around it, yeah, you will you will not believe the the amount of stress that drops off of your shoulders and how ROCD will actually start to dissolve even with that. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00And and you know, it's like even if usually, because you you know, if you're listening to this, you're likely in a safe, secure relationship, even if your partner's anxious, right? Usually, even if your partner doesn't change right away, the act of advocating for yourself does something inside. It changes, and it goes back to my story when I was driving the car and I listened to that part for the first time. It it shows that part. Oh, you heard me. You or you know, you heard that I have a preference. You're listening.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Even if your partner doesn't go and and put the olive oil in a different place right away and they mess up and you have to remind them and whatever, it actually you still feel better. Yeah you still feel the weight because you you you came back into the relationship. I feel like people with avoidant, and I did this, that's why I know this. Avoidant tendencies are stepping out. Not only are they pulling away from their partner because of their avoidance, they're kind of stepping out of the relationship that it takes too dynamic. They're kind of like stepping, yeah, and you can't step out if you want to be.
SPEAKER_01I I hear people that their partner doesn't even know about ROCD at all. They don't say anything. Yeah, I couldn't help it. Like, I was just like, you know, it all came out.
SPEAKER_00It was so bad for me that I there was no way. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was so I was so ill that there was no way that they could be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01So I'm thinking like I'm thinking like if you feel that bad and you have enough protection to where you can't where you're not even allowing yourself to say it, that is excruciatingly painful. So here's the thing. Even if you don't know if it's if it's were or um justifiable to bring it up, try it out anyway. Now, here's the thing if your part if if there's something you don't like about the way your partner looks, I was gonna say that's kind of off the table. You can't ask them to get a nose job, you can't ask them to get a boob job or or whatever. Like that's just a no-no because you're literally asking them to change who they are fundamentally so that you like them more. And and you have to learn and you have to find the self-acceptance within yourself so that you can love them for everything that they are. Now, here's another nuance. If they if they have a shirt and a pair of pants on, and and your partner's like, what do you think, or whatever, and you're like they don't match, you know, then you can say that. Like I, you know, it's like, well, maybe like put on that thing.
SPEAKER_00You can say that.
SPEAKER_01But yes, and the and you can say it even though you can say it even though the matching might irritate you because it's you know, like you can do both, like it's not like but you know, but the the practices is allowing them to be who they are, yeah, and toler and holding on to yourself while you let them do that. Because if when once you start getting into trying to fine-tune them in all these ways so that you're comfortable, that's your problem. That's your insecurity that's coming up. So fix your insecurity, fine-tune your insecurity, not them, so that you feel better.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Exactly. And I would love, I'll put a pin in this. I think it would be really great to do an episode on how to talk to your partner about your RCD. We've done an episode about like kind of adjacent to that, I think a while back, but I think that is another question that comes up a lot is like, okay, so I should share it. How do I share it without sharing all my compulsions? So we'll put a pin in that because we're at time, the time is appearing here. But I think that that's something that we can definitely share some advice on for people.
SPEAKER_01And I just want everyone to know that, like, if you're struggling with this and you and you need some support, I've got a really low-cost uh course and membership that you come can come in. Um, and it will run you through all of this and give you the practices that you need in order to break through this issue. Um, so uh you can either join the foundations membership, which is $47 a month, and you get the full course. You get an app that I designed that allows you to do the inner work necessary, gives you all the practices, it gives you uh a spiral support. So when you're in a spiral, it'll talk you down from it. Um does parts mapping, does it do so many different things that um and so you get the course and you get the app and you get our private WhatsApp group, which people are in right now. Lots of people are in there, and we're all talking and communicating with one another. So join that. If you want to upgrade to the circle membership, which is $97 a month, you get access to our weekly support group. So I'm in there every week on Thursdays uh at uh so the first, third, and fourth Thursdays of the month are at 4 p.m. Eastern time, and the second Thursday of the month is at 9 a.m. Eastern time. And the groups are incredible. So um we get a high turnover rate. It's all on Zoom, it's all interactive. So I encourage you to come and check that out. You can sign up for either of these for uh for free for seven days just to try it out. Um, so I encourage you to do that. I'll link the I'll I'll put everything in the show notes so that you can sign up. Um if you want to work with us uh individually, uh fill out a uh discover call request form. We'd love to do a free discovery call with you to see if working with us would be a good fit for you for individual work. It's you know a step up from the membership, but I've got uh you know, we've got a full team, including Grace, uh practitioners on the team who would love to be able to help you out with what you're struggling with. So uh everything's in the show notes, and uh, I just want to really thank everyone for listening. We hit 25,000 downloads the other day on the podcast. That's awesome. That's pretty cool. So we're about 800 downloads a week right now, which is really great. So a lot of people are finding the podcast and getting help, and I'm getting a lot of feedback that these podcasts have been helpful. So I'm really glad that people are finding their way here. And um that's great. So I love it. All right, Grace. So uh we'll we'll end here and uh see everybody in the next episode.
SPEAKER_00Bye, everyone.