The Circus of Grief: A Love Letter in Motion

What?! A Circus of Grief? How can we take our grief in a new direction? Can we still enjoy life after the loss of a loved one?

Sherry Walling is an author and clinical psychologist. She’s also an amateur circus artist and she pulled together a group of circus artists to create an original circus in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month in May. 

Sherry lost her brother to suicide in  2019 (six  months after their father died of cancer). Afterwards, Sherry struggled to take care of her children, to work, or even to get out of bed. One of the only things that helped her to feel alive was her aerial hobby.

One of Sherry’s coaches, Lynn Lunny, of Stomping Ground Studio in Minneapolis, lost her brother to suicide in 2018. Together, they created the show, which they describe as a love letter in motion.

The show is a fundraiser for the National Association on Mental Illness (NAMI MN) and the official launch of her new book about grief, Touching Two World (to be released in July 2022). The book is part memoir and part guidebook of healing practices groundded in neuroscience and professional expertise.

Helpful Links:

Sherry's book site: www.touchingtwoworlds.com 

Sherry’s  professional site: www.sherrywalling.com 

Nonprofit partner: http://namimn.org

Links to “Bereaved But Still Me” Social Media and Podcast Pages:

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bereaved-but-still-me/id1333229173

Spreaker: https://www.spreaker.com/show/heart-to-heart-with-michael

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HugPodcastNetwork
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGPKwIU5M_YOxvtWepFR5Zw

Website: https://www.hug-podcastnetwork.com/

Transcript

Sherry Walling: 0:00

When death has really entered your story in a very visceral way, our bodies almost need this counterbalance, this reminder, that they are alive.

Michael Liben: 0:10

What? A circus of grief? How can we take our grief in a new direction? Can we still enjoy life after the loss of a loved one? Welcome to the 6th Season of "Bereaved But Still Me". Today's show is "Circus of Grief". Our guest today is Sherry Walling. Sherry Walling is an author and a clinical psychologist. She is also an amateur circus artist, and she pulled together a group of circus artists to create an original circus in honor of mental health awareness month in May. Sherry lost her brother to suicide in 2019, just six months after her father died of cancer. Sherry struggled to take care of her children, to work, or even get out of bed. One of the only things that helped her to feel alive was her aerial hobby. One of Sherry's coaches, Lynn Lunny of Stomping Grounds Studio in Minneapolis, lost her brother to suicide in 2018. Together, they created the show, which they describe as a love letter in motion. The show is a fundraiser for the National Association on Mental Illness, and the official launch of her new book about grief, "Touching Two Worlds", will be released this July. The book is part memoir and part guidebook of healing practices grounded in neuroscience and professional expertise. In today's program, we're going to learn more about Sherry, her circus, and her book. Sherry, welcome to "Bereaved But Still Me".

Sherry Walling: 1:32

Thank you. It's good to be with you, Michael.

Michael Liben: 1:34

Earlier when we spoke, we talked about how you lost your father, a brother, and a daughter. When you experienced all the losses, how did you manage that day to day?

Sherry Walling: 1:44

Well, it was a slog. I think grief can feel like lots of different things, it can feel agitating can feel slow and sad. But for me, it was hard to focus, it was hard to kind of wrap my mind around what needed to happen in a day, especially in those sort of early moments of grief shortly after my loved ones passed.

Michael Liben: 2:06

A lot of people tell me that they had trouble getting out of bed, or they would just sit still. Myself, I tried to go back to work fairly early, and I would some days just stare at the wall. Did you have those moments?

Sherry Walling: 2:17

I definitely did have those moments of feeling like I couldn't really move. And in your intro, you mentioned that I am an aerialist. And it's interesting because one of the things that most helped me feel like I could begin to find movement in motion in my life, following the death of my loved ones, was my aerial practice. It was this movement practice that had been in place before these losses, but took on a new life when my grief was very deep. It's like I kind of didn't want to talk to anybody, I couldn't really function as a professional, but I could get on a silken spin, or I could swing on a trapeze, I could do these very simple movements that were very powerful and empowering for me.

Michael Liben: 3:09

Is that because you're essentially on whatever it is you're on, whatever is holding you, you're very alone at that moment, or is it maybe because there's intense concentration, or maybe just pain? What is it about that moment, that sort of focuses you?

Sherry Walling: 3:25

I think for me, it is the need for my mind and body to unite on one focus. Because aerial work, circus work, involves, you know, no small amount of danger. It is important to have your wits about you so to speak, you have to have your mind focused, but you also have to be engaging your body, you have to be breathing properly, you have to be using your muscles, your hands. And so I think the need to unify my whole self on an activity that is absorbing and engaging became something that helps me really reconnect with my own aliveness.

Michael Liben: 4:05

I would think even on a much simpler level, you told me you couldn't move this forces you to actually physically move you have to get up and do something that it's also very dangerous requires intense concentration. But, but on a much simpler level. Just moving, just forcing yourself to do something, anything, is that part of it?

Sherry Walling: 4:24

Yeah, in my world, as a psychologist, that's one of the things I most often recommend to people is just get up and walk around the block. Get up and be in the garden, get your hands in the dirt, find a little bit of nature and move your body in a way where you're engaging with the world around you. I think yoga is also a super helpful practice for people who are in grief because it's still and it's focused, but you are also moving and breathing and expanding beyond the sad stillness of being in bed.

Michael Liben: 4:58

I think you're also much more aware of your body in every inch of it in that moment, I think, again, it's the concentration. But I think it's also the action of your mind and your body working together.

Sherry Walling: 5:09

I think when you are so close to death, when you have multiple losses, or you are present at the loss of your loved one, or your loss is traumatic. When death has really entered your story in a very visceral way, our bodies almost need this counterbalance this reminder that they are alive. And so, for me, hearing the sound of my own breath, when I'm in yoga, or when I'm on the trapeze, and I'm breathing in a rhythm, it does something viscerally that helps my nervous system recognize, okay, death has come close, death has entered the story but I'm still alive. My heart's still beating, my breath is still moving, my muscles are still working, so let's act accordingly.

Michael Liben: 5:57

That's really important. I think people don't necessarily get that mind body connection, but one helps the other when one is down.

Sherry Walling: 6:04

Yeah

Michael Liben: 6:05

You already mentioned multiple grief and multiple loss; you lost your father, your brother, and a daughter. What are some of the differences between them if there are,

Sherry Walling: 6:13

I think each of the losses was different. My daughter didn't pass away. She was not my biological daughter. She was with our family for four years. And so we planned on her being a permanent member of our family, but for a variety of complicated reasons, she ended up going back to live with her biological mother. So that loss was this jarring experience of the loss of the future, in a way, like we had planned our family around this kid being part of it, being part of us. The loss of my dad to cancer was its own experience, but it really, in many ways, felt like the loss of the past. He was my link to childhood, he was my link to where I came from. And his death unfolded over about 18 months, he died of esophageal cancer. And then my brother's loss from suicide, his death was this shattering of the present, right, he was my peer, we were at similar ages, he came from the same family, was interested and enjoyed the same kinds of things, was my buddy in most of my life, and so to lose him, traumatically, dramatically, very quickly, felt like this really, this shock to the system. So I think each of the losses really shaped me in different ways, but felt like they impacted my life in unique ways.

Michael Liben: 7:36

Very interesting that you put it in terms of past, present and future, I think, probably most of us feel that when we lose a parent, we've lost our past. If we lose a child, as I did, we lose some part of our future. But I don't think I've ever put it into words quite that way.

Sherry Walling: 7:51

I think a lot about that, as a mental health practitioner, right? The our relationship with our timeline, you know how different experiences change our perception of the past. And I feel like part of mental health, like finding your way through grief, through loss, through trauma, is being able to move back and forth from past memories, to present experiences, to future hopes, with some ease and with some intention. So when loss comes in and disrupts our timeline like, reshapes our sense of our future, or past or present, that's one of the things that we're healing from, that's one of the things we're trying to rebuild. When people get really stuck. When they develop Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or they experience significant depression, often there's a disruption of timeline. So PTSD is being stuck in a moment in the past. And that moment is huge and large and loud in someone's mind, and it overshadows what has happened since. Depression, in many ways, is a sense of hopelessness, it's a sense of an inhibited capacity to imagine the future. And so I don't know, it's a little bit existential, and maybe sort of philosophical, but it helps me as a human and it helps me as a psychologist to feel like, okay, my job is to learn how to navigate these different phases of my own timeline, with some ease without feeling a super surge of pain, going to the past or thinking about the future or being in the present.

Michael Liben: 9:26

It's a great way of looking at your life and sort of taking stock all the time, and appreciating what you've had, looking forward to what's coming. Even if you've lost where you think you're going, then maybe you'll find some other way to go forward. I actually find that very helpful, and I really liked that.

Sherry Walling: 9:41

Thank you, my offering to you (laughs).

Michael Liben: 9:44

Greatly accepted. How did you manage to find the resources that you needed to cope with this string of losses, one after the other?

Sherry Walling: 9:51

It is one place where I actually was quite grateful to be a psychologist. Because even though it didn't mean a short cut through any measure of healing or you know, like, you still have to go through it, you still have to feel all the things. I had language for what I was experiencing. And I think that language is helpful. I think I've also seen a lot of people recover from horrible events in their lives and find a measure of joy and find a measure of connection so I have all those stories in the back of my head. So I think even in my lowest moments, my saddest moments, I had a deep assurance that I wasn't going to get stuck there, which is important. I am also grateful that I had a yoga practice, I had my circus practice in my life before these losses happened, so they were available to me when I needed them.

Michael Liben: 10:45

Yeah, I would think that most people don't turn to the circus when they're looking for a way out of distress.

Sherry Walling: 10:52

Well, I highly recommend it!

Michael Liben: 10:55

You do?

Sherry Walling: 10:55

I do!

Anna Jaworski: 10:58

You are listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 11:38

We were talking before about how you suffered a string of losses in your life one after the other. I'd like to talk about the circus and how you got involved with that.

Sherry Walling: 11:47

Sure, my original introduction to the circus was because I moved from California to Minneapolis, which is not a common trajectory for people. But I had been a surfer and a runner, and I love to play outside. When I moved to Minneapolis, I needed an indoor activity. And I ended up in an aerial yoga class, sort of by accident, which is where you do yoga, but there's a piece of fabric suspended from the ceiling. And so you can use it for inversions or to deepen your stretch. But I thought it was super fun. And so it became this kind of gateway drug, if you will, this entry point into this world of aerial arts, where people work with fabrics, trapeze, Lyra, which is like an aerial hoop, sometimes ropes, sometimes chains, and have those suspended from a rig point in the ceiling and do all manner of tricks and dance and sort of circusy goodness. After I started that, then I began flying in the flying trapeze, which has been a whole other adventure.

Michael Liben: 12:54

We need video on this program. I'm sorry, we just need video. When you're performing in the circus, with your experience of grief, do you contemplate your own mortality while performing?

Sherry Walling: 13:08

I don't contemplate my own mortality. I do channel a lot of emotion into what I'm doing. So especially on the fabrics which are a little bit more of like a dance apparatus, you can really bring a lot of your own soul, your own emotional expression, into your movement, into your facial expression, into your interaction with the music. And so that has become a place of deep expression. I think the flying trapeze is where I do often battle with my own fear. And so I do a lot of talking to myself about 'take a breath, hold on tight, your body knows what to do'. Like I have a lot of language for reassuring myself when I feel afraid.

Michael Liben: 13:58

Well, I don't know. I think you must be fearless. If you are afraid up there, nobody knows.

Sherry Walling: 14:05

I'm afraid of spiders, but I'm not afraid of the trapeze.

Michael Liben: 14:11

See, no spiders don't scare me all that much. But I definitely have a thing with heights, three steps up on a step ladder and I'm a little shaky.

Sherry Walling: 14:21

So the ladder is the worst part of the trapeze. But the other piece about the trapeze in particular is it is a team sport. There's no way to do it by yourself. And as you're learning you're strapped into a belt that you're is then attached to ropes and there's a human on the other end of that rope holding it the entire time you're flying. So there's a whole team aspect and dynamic. All of the timing between you as the flier, and the catcher who's on the other trapeze, you know, ready to grab you on the other end of your trick. All of it is this dance that you do with other people and so it's a tremendous aspect of community and trust-building that I think is really repairing and healing,

Michael Liben: 15:03

Right, I definitely get the trust building because I would be, that would make me even more scared to do what you do. Knowing that not only do I have to do everything 100% on the money every time someone else has to do it.

Sherry Walling: 15:16

There's also a net. So that helps!

Michael Liben: 15:21

Hats off to you I am, I am in awe of what you do. You're not the first person that we've had on this program to deal with it. And she also tells me the same stories and I am in awe of anybody who can do that. I just really am.

Sherry Walling: 15:34

And circus aside, I think when people are in grief, finding something that helps you to feel alive, that brings you some joy, and that helps connect you to other people. And that can be lots of things. It doesn't have to be aerial, it doesn't have to be this sort of dramatic circus hobby. But I think all of us need that spark of aliveness, especially when grief is really looming large.

Michael Liben: 16:00

I get that. But for me, so that spark of aliveness of doing something for someone else would be like baking bread and giving it to somebody. The aliveness part and the mortality part come together in a very strong opposition when we talk about heights with people like me, so I know I'm starting from a position of what are you doing? Again, I'm not recommending this to everybody who's listening, I'm bringing this as a sample of something that's been really good for people who do it. Anybody who goes out and tries this, you're on your own, I have not been endorsed this. And I need to be clear on that. Because it's very frightening. I would find another way to spark my mind and body, to to work to do something, to produce something. And maybe that's because I was a filmmaker for a long time I produced things at the end of the day, I could walk home with something I made.

Sherry Walling: 16:47

Yeah.

Michael Liben: 16:47

So, so maybe that's it. Maybe that's it, and why that works for me, but not for somebody else.

Sherry Walling: 16:52

Well, my coach Linda and I recently made this show where we invited different artists from our community to present pieces related to mental health and specifically grief by suicide. And it was beautiful, right? We had all these different bodies and all these different pieces of a story come together to tell a whole narrative, but told through all these different pieces. And so it did have that sense of integrating fragments using different apparatuses. We had a fire performer, we had acrobats, we had aerialists on trapeze and Lyra, and all these different things. And so it has that creative outlet to which I think for me is why it feels different than a sport. Feels different than yoga or running because it has that emotional story component.

Michael Liben: 17:43

Well, that's the interesting thing about the circus that you do. And the programming that you do is that you're actually telling stories, you're conveying messages. It's not just people flying around on a trapeze. It's not Ringling Brothers. It's a program designed with a message and everything that you do, there's a reason that you're doing it, you're pushing the story forward. And that's different, I think, than most circuses, and that is what makes it special. Now, you've decided to devote your circus to I'm gonna say NAMI, N A M I, Minnesota. And I think that not everybody knows what that is. So why don't you tell us about NAMI and your association with them, and how this fundraiser is going to help the Minnesota chapter.

Sherry Walling: 18:19

Yeah, NAMI is the National Alliance for Mental Illness. And it is nationwide in the US, I'm not sure if it exists in other countries, but it's all over the United States. And they have a strong history of advocacy and education related to all manner of diagnoses, mental health or mental illness diagnoses. So I got to know them, because I was very concerned about the safety of Sober Homes, which are these places that people who are leaving substance abuse treatment or depression treatment go, that are kind of a launch point, that's post treatment but it's like, before you really have your feet under you before you have a job and maybe the finances to move into your own apartment. So it's basically this low income housing bracket. But they are really unregulated in the state of Minnesota. So I was very worried about this, I was upset about it. My brother had a very hard time in the treatment program that he went to. And I was looking into which legislation was addressing this issue. And I came in contact with NAMI and they asked if I would speak to the legislators in my state and really begin to advocate for more regulation and more support for safe, or for safer, Sober Homes. So that's how I got involved with NAMI. But it's been interesting to watch all of these places that they're active because not only are they at the legislature, talking with policymakers and talking with politicians like every day, they also are really, really active in all kinds of education related to mental health, and it's a nonprofit organization that does tremendous work. So, it's been really lovely to partner with them and to be able to raise awareness about the work that they do and raise some money for them, alongside our show. That's noble. Everything that you're doing in terms of your own healing or your own expression is noble and interesting, but helping them as I think even more so because this is really serious work. This is work that needs to be done. I think one of the things that people don't understand about mental health is that you don't just treat it one and done. It's an ongoing thing. And how we work with people who've been through the system, and how we promote them after they've been through the system, is no less important. Every place has its own gifts and challenges. But my professional and personal opinion is that the mental health care system within the US is just phenomenally broken. And really, really vulnerable people are routinely placed in really unsafe situations that do not support everything that we know from research and common sense about what it takes to heal. And so for me, a piece of my response, particularly to my brother's death, is to stand up and say, "Oh, no, we can do better, we have to do better". Because my brother's death, it was a preventable death, he didn't have to die in the way that he did. There were so many turning points where an opportunity was missed, for him to have a safe place or to be in an environment that was more conducive to healing. So that's been a part of my grief is to turn that sadness into some

Michael Liben: 21:33

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, anger, into some fire that says,"Oh, we've got to fix this stuff". please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe. And is part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com. For information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. Sherry, in addition to being a clinical psychologist, you're also an author. So I'd like to talk about your new book. Can you tell us how you decided to write it?

Sherry Walling: 22:33

Well, I didn't really decide to write it(laughs).

Michael Liben: 22:38

What brought this book about?

Sherry Walling: 22:39

How did that happen? My new book is called,

"Touching Two Worlds: 22:43

A Guide for Finding Hope in the Landscape of Loss". And to be honest, it started as my journal, it was what I was doing at two the morning when I couldn't sleep. I started writing shortly after my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and I wrote in the early, early hours of the morning, and then I wrote a lot on airplanes. I live in Minnesota; my parents lived in California so I was flying back and forth a lot and was just on airplanes all the time and felt like I wanted to write. So as I was writing, though, I found that I was sending little paragraphs or little snippets to friends or to other people in my life who were experiencing grief or whose family members were struggling. And it became clear that I wanted to share what I'd written. And that I'd written a lot over the years, like it was a full book. So I worked with an editor, was able to find an agent, and then my book was accepted for publication through Sounds True, which is a publication house that I'm really excited about and grateful to work with.

Michael Liben: 23:48

Basically, it's a collection of works over the years and thoughts.

Sherry Walling: 23:52

Yeah, it's a collection of essays.

Michael Liben: 23:54

Yeah.

Sherry Walling: 23:54

And then part of the work in the editorial process has been to move beyond the specificity of my story, but then also to think about how to make the content helpful to other people. So most of the essays involve a story from my experience. And then what I've, I call it a "Take a Moment" section. So it's usually the end of the essay where there's some application to someone's life, right, do this journaling prompt, do this yoga practice, explore this thought have this conversation, so that it's more than a memoir. I mean, memoirs are wonderful, but the psychologist in me also wants to be really helpful.

Michael Liben: 24:36

Well, I think it's wonderful. You know, it's funny, you said that you write a lot at two in the morning. We had a rule in television, that an advertiser once gave me, it was he called it "The 2am Rule". If you watch a movie and you go to sleep, and I come in and wake you up at 2am and ask you what was it about? That'll be the central message of the movie and either worked or didn't work. So your "Take a Moment" is that a central message? Right? Your"Take a Moment" is the 2am moment. "What did I really mean"? "What's really coming out of here"? "What can you get from this"? And that's great, because the book, I would imagine, is not only aimed at other psychologists, but people who maybe are in pain.

Sherry Walling: 25:13

Yeah, it's written to everyone, right? It's written to everyone who is going to experience heartache and heartbreak, which, sadly is, all of us, all of us will walk through grief in some form or another in the course of our lives.

Michael Liben: 25:28

Of course, the book is called "Touching Two Worlds". So how did you arrive that title? And how does that relate to the book's message?

Sherry Walling: 25:34

I think the book does play a lot with duality. And because I'm in my early 40s, I have young children, I am a circus artist, I'm a writer, I live in this very creative, alive, loud moving, life. And that doesn't stop just because these people I love have passed away. And so my challenge has been to be present to the sadness, the stillness, the grief, the death, and also be able to live in this other place of love, and aliveness and gooey fingers and sticky children, and just all of that. So the"Touching Two Worlds" is this dance, going back and forth, and being being present to all of it, and acknowledging that both aspects of that life have a lot to offer me and teach me and are important,

Michael Liben: 26:29

Besides just having the language to understand what you're going through, do you think that helping others as a psychologist has had its effect on you? Has it, has it helped you? Or is it, like a lot of people, you know, you of all people should know how to get through this? And you can't. How does that work for you?

Sherry Walling: 26:47

I think with my brother, it felt hard to be a psychologist, because I watched him struggle with depression and addiction. And I knew that this was a danger for him. So the professional in me watched that unfold with this professional concern. But in terms of my own grief, there's not really a shortcut, right? Grief isn't about something that you know, something that happens in your mind, something that you're cognitively aware of, it's this process that you go through, kind of from the inside out, from down in your guts all the way to the top of your head, and that I've had to walk through myself. I do think, though, that, as I mentioned earlier, because I've seen a lot of people come back to life from really painful things, I felt a sense of assurance or confidence that I would be okay eventually. I also felt like 'now I have to put my money where my mouth is' like, I have to do the hard work of healing and finding wholeness. So...

Michael Liben: 27:51

It's comforting to me that you were comforted by other people's experience that you knew this was going to land well.

Sherry Walling: 27:59

I think the word for me or the way that I think about this is the word'integration', is that I would be able to find a spot within myself, for all of these painful experiences. They'd get a spot on the shelf of my own personal library inside my mind and heart. And that they wouldn't always be blaring and blasting and super loud and overwhelming, but they would become part of me in a way that would eventually feel tolerable, and then eventually feel okay.

Michael Liben: 28:31

A lot of people when they start with grief, they have no idea where this is gonna land, they have no idea where to head. At least you had the knowledge, or at least the belief, this was going to land all right. And that's a good thing.

Sherry Walling: 28:44

And I'm grateful for that.

Michael Liben: 28:46

And I'm grateful that you have that. The question is, if you could find a way to translate that or transmit that to other people, that before they start, you can tell them look, you're going to go through hell, but on the other side of hell is a slice of heaven and you'll be fine.

Sherry Walling: 29:00

I think that telling someone that is sort of tricky, but the watching people who have walked through grief is helpful. And I think that's probably why, my guess is, folks listen to your show, is it they're asking those questions. They're listening to you to your experience to your conversation with your guests and thinking,"Oh, well, that sounds terrible and tragic and horrible, but they seem okay enough, right"? Okay. Okay enough to get out of bed, get in front of the computer, turn it on, record you know, like, okay enough.

Michael Liben: 29:31

You may have noticed there's a lot of giggling on this program as well.

Sherry Walling: 29:34

But there's some joyfulness, there's warmth, there's aliveness. So I think that's, it's helpful to watch, and it's all around us. And I do think it's why people would read a book like mine or listen to a show like yours, is they're asking the question of like,"How does this end? How do I get through this"? And the answer is like, slowly.

Michael Liben: 29:55

Well, yeah, but I mean, I don't always know how you'll get through this. I know that you will get through this. And by through I mean that you will never finish, grief never goes away. I like the way you put it as integration. You will find a way to reintegrate yourself, and your grief, and everything that you are and everything that you were. And you will be something, it'll be a good thing I don't want to say was worth it because death is never worth it. But you can come out of this better than you went in.

Sherry Walling: 30:23

And you can find a sense of home, a feeling at home, with the experiences.

Michael Liben: 30:29

I would hope so. And I would hope that we're part of that

Sherry Walling: 30:31

It's been really helpful for me to tell my story in lots of ways, like whether it's in front of the state legislature, whether it's to friends to say, "Oh, I had this brother. And he loves to kayak, and he had beautiful blue eyes, and he made great salsa. And he was fantastic. And I'm super sad he's not here anymore". But when I get to talk about him or write about him, it keeps him alive a little longer. And so that's a gift is hearing people's stories is also a gift.

Michael Liben: 31:00

People who want to help are the kind of people that really want to help. But it's also good for them. So you can't lose, you can't lose.

Sherry Walling: 31:10

And it's also okay to take a break from the story of death and grief, and go do something else, right?

Michael Liben: 31:16

Like, go to the flying trapeze, for example.

Sherry Walling: 31:19

Go, go just do, think, be, in another state. Because it's exhausting.

Michael Liben: 31:26

I think it's very hard for people to learn that I can do something else for a while. And I won't be running away from whoever I've lost, if I put that down for a minute and go look at something else. That's a hard decision to come to. That's why our tagline is"moving forward is not moving away". Because you can do other things. But you're not leaving anyone behind. They're with you all the time.

Sherry Walling: 31:47

That's sort of the message and the title of my book of, "Touching Two Worlds" a sense of like, oh, I can be alive and fully there, and then also travel back to the place of grief and feel comfortable going back and forth. And that that's all okay and allowed.

Michael Liben: 32:04

That's beautiful. So how can we get your book? And are you available online? Is your therapy open? Can people access you somehow?

Sherry Walling: 32:12

Yeah, I spend a lot of time online these days it feels like. But yeah, the book is called, "Touching Two Worlds". And it is available for preorder, and can be found in all major retailers, Amazon, bookstores, in your neighborhood, etc. The book's website is touchingtwoworlds.com. There's a lot of information, photos and video of the show there that's really beautiful and interesting. So feel free to check that out if you're circus curious. And then I'm also online at sherrywalling.com.

Michael Liben: 32:43

Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you so much for becoming a part of"Bereaved But Still Me".

Sherry Walling: 32:48

Thanks so much, Michael.

Michael Liben: 32:49

And that concludes this episode of"Bereaved But Still Me". I want to thank Sherry Walling for sharing her book, her circus, and her experience with us. Please join us at the beginning of the month for a brand new podcast, I'll talk with you soon. But, until then, please remember, moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 33:05

Thank you for joining us. We hope you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".