Crying in the Shower and Learning to Laugh Again

Our guest is Ron Glenn Kelly, author of Sometimes I Cry in the Shower. Ron is no stranger to grief and today he’ll tell us his personal story and how he is committed to helping others deal with grief in their personal lives and in the workplace. 

Ron Glenn Kelly unexpectedly lost his teenage son and only child to a congenital heart defect. He has become a leading authority on grief in the workplace. He is the author of several books and he is a keynote speaker discussing grief support in the workplace, and how people can move forward after tremendous loss and grief. 

Transcript

spk_1:   0:00
to be inspired is to be in spirit, and John brought that spirit back to me.

spk_3:   0:05
Way Friends to the Third Season of Heart to Heart with Michael program for the Braves community. Our purpose is to empower members of our community this season. We're taking a longer view. Can we find healing? Can we find peace? Today's program is crying in the shower and learning to laugh again. But before we get into the program, I just wanted to committed to thank some more listeners and friends who have taken the time to send comments about our past programs. Special thanks to Brent Big Narrowly, Bill Wieden and some close friends and family. Valerie Russell, my sisters who listen religiously, Philip Procter and Rachel Green down. Some have given their time. Some have given their money. Some have just been wonderful people for us and really good friends of the program. Thank you all way. Love you Here with us. Today is our guest are Glen Kelly, author of Sometimes I Cry in the Shower. Ron is no stranger to grief, and today he'll tell us his personal story and how he is committed to helping others

spk_0:   1:03
deal with grief in their personal lives and in the workplace. Ron Glen Kelly unexpectedly lost his teenage son and only child to a congenital heart defect. He has become a leading authority on grief in the workplace, is the author of several books and is a keynote speaker discussing grief, support in the workplace and how people can move forward after tremendous loss and grief. Thank you for coming to heart to heart with Michael Run, so it's a pleasure to see you.

spk_1:   1:27
It's my honor to be here. I truly appreciate the opportunity just to be here with you.

spk_0:   1:33
Let's start with you telling us about your son.

spk_1:   1:35
Oh, what an honor I'd love to tell you about Jonathan. I I was blessed with Jonathan coming into my life in the year of 1997. January 31st 1997 was amazing day. He would be my only child. He would come to this world is what appeared to be a healthy and happy child. But within two or three hours of his birth, unfortunately were informed by the attending physicians that John had come into the world with an undiagnosed condition known as Hypo plastic left heart syndrome. Well, I'm sure you know what that is For those that don't theory left side of his heart, the two chambers had failed to develop in the womb and the long and short of it. That day we were handed Jonathan and told that he may not make it to his first night, but he did. Between divine intervention and the intervention of Ah, very, very good pediatric cardiothoracic surgeon. John made it. He underwent a series of very excruciating open heart surgeries before the age of two. And then there was intervention after that and for all intents and purposes with additional intervention that we knew off, he was supposed to have what would relatively b a prognosis for a full life. So we weren't expecting him to pass. We just knew that there would be problems along the way. He was amazing child all the time that he was growing up, he had a house full of friends, a yard full of friends. I couldn't keep food in the refrigerator. He was a pied piper, the neighborhood, and for some reason, and I think many heart parents will tell you that for some reason, their heart is the size of the Empire State Building he attracted friends like Like it's nobody's business. Unfortunately, at the age of 16 I took him in for now, give you the air quotes, the relatively routine heart catheterization where they were just going toe to kind of take a look around his heart and see what was going on. And the procedure went well. But once he was out in the recovery room about two hours, two hours after being out there is hard crashed, It failed, and they were not able to recover him. And I take the blessings, actually, very, very strong blessings that I was actually there to hold my child when he took his final breath before he went to the other side. I'm sorry the child wouldn't change that for the world. No, I appreciate that. I'm so sorry for your loss, but it Ah, it is something that humbled me when he was born. I wish I could have taken humility that also came to me when he passed. But he taught me many lessons while he was alive and even deeper lesson after he was gone. But an amazing, amazing child helped so many kids that he never even knew here would be born later on, in the same condition he he was born with Tell You definitely left a legacy behind.

spk_0:   4:10
How did he help other kids? Just

spk_1:   4:13
the research that's done when you have a rare heart condition like that, the research that's done on him is hopefully going to allow other Children with similar conditions that are born later on. If I had him for 16 years, maybe the next parent will have theirs for 17 years and then 18 years, and we go on and on and on for long, longer life's until we can finally defeat what? No. One is a rare, but certainly especially for me, not rare enough. Heart disease makes,

spk_0:   4:40
and now it makes perfect sense. And I love the way you speak of him so highly. I know all of us who've lost Children. We think of where our Children is so special and so wonderful. And they really did, in their way, shine on everybody who knew them. Other kids at the results they really did.

spk_1:   4:55
He is very much as much A part of me is I am of me. I'll tell you that

spk_0:   5:01
I can absolutely, completely understand that and empathize with time. We said in the introduction that you wrote a book called Sometimes I Cry in the Shower. How did you come to write that? And what has that been for you? Well,

spk_1:   5:12
you know, as the typical male. And I will say that because one of the platforms I speak about the diversities in between male and female Eleana processing and expression of grief, emotions but typical male. After John was going, I was I was lost for quite some time. I I went through an identity crisis where I didn't know where I was because I was no longer a father in my mind. I know different now, but it's a time I thought I was no longer a parent or a father didn't know who I was. I certainly was more wrapped around being a father's, and I was wrapped around being an executive at work. When John was born in 1997 I took an offer with private business in the defense contracting industry, and I was able to give John the home care that he needed, why he went through his initial open heart surgeries, and I I I don't like private business. I would rather been in public service, but I excelled a private business. It just wasn't my giving you more air quotes wasn't my identity, if you will. So when John was going, I lost my identity. I fumbled around, I went back to work. I went back to work quickly because it work. I was in charge and I could control things at work. And I couldn't control the loss of John. So I had to find an outlet for that. I knew where I could control things, and that was at the office.

spk_0:   6:20
That's very interesting, because I think I think a lot of us feel that that sense of falling and out of control, what do I do next? I mean, I didn't feel that my life had ended, but I felt that my life was about to change seriously, and I didn't know what was behind any of the doors. But you had no control, exactly. But but being able to be in a position of control, I can see why that would be important to you.

spk_1:   6:43
And even on the weekends, I would spend more, more time in my woodworking shop and I would inside the house because, well, let me put it this way. If I would have kept going, every piece of furniture inside of my house would have been something that I had made in my woodworking shop. Because Justus well, I could create, and I could control what I was doing out there. It was all under my control, but it also allowed me toe to avoid, which was a bigger thing. This went on for about a six month period where I was just constantly just repressing my grief and doing things to do it. You're walking down the hallway and avoiding looking at pictures of John on the wall, avoiding looking. There's open bedroom door, um, not knowing that I was still a father and whether it was just a strange mix of chemicals in my brain one day or whether John truly came to me. I was in the shower one morning and I felt John inside of me, and I felt John on the outside of me, and all I could do is look at him where I thought that he might be and just say I baby and he he answered back. But not very kind. Words and words to me is very first word were How dare you, he said. How dare you not grieve me? And how dare you not think that you're still my father? And from that point forward, I cried for the first time, and that was really the inception of y. Wrote the book six months later. Sometimes I cry in the shower. I never had another experience with John after that in the same manner. Although I have dreams of John, I talked to John all the time. I think he answers me. You'll forgive me for that, but I speak with him, and I think one of these days are Are Maker's gonna come down and asked me why I don't speak with him as much as I speak with John anymore. But I know I'm still speaking through him, and I want you to know the book. Sometimes I cry in the shower is so much more than just about the loss of John. It's about my re discoveries of my self worth and my self esteem, and about living with an unhealthy ego and realizing that I needed to live an inspired life because to be inspired is to be in spirit. And John brought that spirit back to me, and I realized once I haven't inspired again, I became motivated. I became creative, and in John's terms, I went out to live his legacy again and without inspiration. I couldn't do that without him visiting me that day, leaving so much of a mark on me. There's no way I could be out doing what I'm doing today.

spk_0:   9:05
You know, one of the things we've talked about a lot this season is exactly that moment. What we call post traumatic growth, where you have been grieving or in your case, avoiding grief. Perhaps, but it all builds up to a point where it explodes in a powerful way. We end up doing things that we never pictured ourselves doing. Let's forget if it's difficult under things that we just never thought we would dio right. And there you are.

spk_1:   9:32
You and I call it that the ability to go stand naked in the storm now, you know, and I know that's a visual some people don't wanna have. But, you know, one of the common things that we hear two of the common things that we've gone through the fire. You hear that a lot, Right? Or the bottom has dropped out of my life. And I like to tell people when the bottom has dropped out of your life, Where did you go? Where do you think you went when the bottom dropped out? You dropped into your true self is what you did. Or if you've been through the fire, I say, Well, you have to picture it like the all consuming fire that does nothing but take away all that which is untrue and leave your true self behind. And at that point you're able to transition yourself. And it's something that you were more than before because now you do. You do to have that ability toe to do away with the unhealthy ego to live with the unconditional love that we now have. Because there's one thing that we recognize when we lose someone we love so deeply We recognize that we felt unconditional love

spk_2:   10:39
tonight forever by the Baby Blue Sound collective. I think what I love so much about this CD is that some of the songs were inspired by the patients.

spk_3:   10:50
Many listeners will understand many of the different songs and what they've been inspired by. Our new album will be available on iTunes. Amazon dot com. Spotify

spk_2:   11:00
I love the fact that the proceeds from this CD are actually going to help those with Joe Hart effects.

spk_3:   11:06
Join Music

spk_2:   11:07
Home Tonight Forever

spk_5:   11:13
Hi, my name is Jamie Al Croft and I just published my new book, The Tin Man Diaries. It's an amazing story of my sudden change of heart as I went through a heart, a liver transplant. I can think of no better way to read The Tin Man diaries than to cuddle up in your favorite hearts. Unite the Globe sweatshirt and your favorite hot beverage, of course, in your hearts unite Globe mug, both of which are available. The Hug, podcast network, online store or visit hearts. Unite the globe dot

spk_2:   11:45
You are listening to heart to heart with Michael. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on Michael's program, please email him at Michael at heart to heart with michael dot com. Now back to our program.

spk_3:   12:00
Let's talk about men in the workplace. You seem to

spk_0:   12:02
do a lot of work with grieving men. Why is that important?

spk_1:   12:05
Because of both nature and nurture. I think I'd like to be able to let people know that men tame Teoh seem to repress their grief a little more than women Dio. And where that comes into problems is when we go back to work. As I mentioned in another segment, you know, for me I went back early toe control things that I could control. But all in all that becomes really just another form of complicated grief. I was delaying my grief. Ah, and the longer that I delay it, eventually it's going to come out. You can't stop those emotions from coming out longer. I delay it. They're going to come out and where and when they come out is not going to be up to me. The longer that I delay them, will that be in the workplace? Will that be why I'm sitting on a forklift someplace men happen to have Ah, a few things about us where yes, we do have is many emotions inside his women do. We're just more internal with those emotions. We tend to go to work and we tend to put on what I call ah, grief mask. We show people that were OK when inside were not become because women are a little bit more social than we are. They tend to go in into work and let people know that they are hurting inside and people can make adjustments around them. But for us, men we go into were acting just fine when inside were not. Trouble's gonna rise from that

spk_0:   13:20
has that effect workplace that Because I know you like to do a lot of work with corporations on how to treat grieving men in the workplace. Obviously, there's an economic factor here.

spk_1:   13:31
There is a huge economic factor right now. It's studies. We're sure that is over $100 billion in annual revenue loss due to the hidden, direct and indirect costs of grief in the workplace in the United States. That's a after that happened, one of the biggest losses for business. Whether it's here, whether it's there, is always gonna be in scheduled absenteeism. Now I'm scheduled. Absenteeism. United States costs American businesses over $420 billion a year just in itself, but now the average bereaved employees going to take an additional 30 days of unscheduled absence from the workplace just because of his bereavement or her bereavement. Now, why did they take that additional absence? Because they don't feel safe and comfortable in the workplace. It used to be a comfortable home, but if it's indifferent or even hostile to their grief, and you know as well as I do when the mind is in trouble, the mind is going to seek a place of safety and comfort to process. It's trauma, is it not? So you wake up one morning and you're in a massive wave of grief. You're gonna want someplace safe where you can process that grief until you get rid of that way, even wait for the next one to come. And if the workplace is not that safe place, you're liable to get that to shelter in place that day right there in bed and not goto work. That's just one example of the direct costs of grief to the workplace. There's another study, and I'll be quick about this. Another study were 25,000 bereaved active employees. War interviewed 85% of those who identified his manager said that after their loss for up to six months, they had major errors and judgment on the job. 1% of frontline workers who became injured. And these are all cited statistics. 90% of workers who became injured on the job after a loss reported that injury was directly related to their grief. Now you're talking about worker's comp rate. Now you're talking about general and liability insurance. You're talking about a number of factors there. Now you want to talk about a workplace its hostile towards grievers, and you're talking about increased hiring costs and training costs and lack of production You're following. I mean,

spk_3:   15:36
there are what would you say?

spk_0:   15:37
Hostile? You mean like, you know, people saying something. Aren't you over this already? That kind of thing are sure.

spk_1:   15:42
Well, you've got indifference and you've got those that just don't handle it. And you've got hostility because I was a businessman. I understand that businesses are in the business of doing business up for profit business, wants to make a profit. Profit generally means boots on the ground doing in a job that they were hired to do. So I mean, there are some places that are still back in the Stone Age, where you're supposed to leave your personal life at home and not bring it to work with you personally. As far as I'm concerned, I expect you to be the same. It workers you are at home. I don't want you come into work pretending to be somebody that you're not. I know, and you know that I've had bad days and I've carried those to work with me, right? They will do well and businesses, many of them. They have been phenomenal increases in morale and welfare programs in the United States. All across the board except for in the area of bereavement

spk_0:   16:32
is that because Britain is still considered so personal,

spk_1:   16:35
it's uncomfortable. Mortality is uncomfortable. We don't want to talk about it in the board room. We don't want to talk about it in in planning situations. We want to outsource it here. We've got employee assistance programmes that the majority of your major corporations will sign up with, and they think that they're doing all that they can. But they don't realize that statistics showed that only 3 to 7% of eligible employees will ever participate in an employee assistance program. And even if they do, Michael 90,000 hours his the amount of time the average U S employees will spend in a lifetime. It work 90,000 hours. That's a lot of time. They will spend more time with co workers on the job, and they will with loved ones at home.

spk_0:   17:19
This is this is

spk_1:   17:20
where is the biggest influence coming from. Because I tell you, if I've got an appointment to see my counselor tomorrow with three, it's nine o'clock in the morning and I'm on my forklift and I'm having a major grief wave right now. And I'm around people that I'm around Mawr than anybody else in my life, and they're treating me in different where they're treating me hostile. Oh yeah, there's dirt a big impact.

spk_0:   17:42
I have a lot of trouble with that, that people would be hostile. It, our definition hostile might not match. I mean, I understand that there are people who say the most horrendous things, and I hope we get to that later on. In the program, people say the most horrendous things, but they usually say it in an attempt in an attempt to show some sort of sympathy or even without, without malice. They

spk_1:   18:01
don't say it out of mouths completely. 100% agreement with you. But there are those places where get back to work. We need you to go to work, go to work. Aren't you over? Really? Really, It still exists. I would say that to be honest with the and not to go down that road with anything else, probably 90% of the issue is mawr. Indifference versus hostility. Sound better?

spk_0:   18:22
Yeah, Well, I I think it's probably more than most people who might be otherwise hostile. Just don't say anything or they which is sometimes a good thing. But they also avoid looking at you, which could be understood itself. Style

spk_1:   18:34
juror. And that flips in the other direction where you do have places that not only indifferent to it, but they actually avoid it all together. And you watch as you're walking down the hallway and Michael jumps into a supply closet to avoid company coming face to face with me.

spk_0:   18:47
How do you find that in the workplace that breaks down? Is it is this different between men and women, or is this a general generally the same for buddy.

spk_1:   18:54
Grief is in eternal process where morning is your external process of it. Women have a tendency able to be more social and allow that morning part of it to be seen by by those around them. Menem or internal. We externalize everything we want to keep it inside of ourselves, and that's fine. We're okay doing that. Grief only becomes external and becomes overwhelming inside. So you've got a woman who will go in and she will let you probably know, probably not every time. But let's you know that she's hurting. And again, we touched on this earlier. The bigger thing for the man is he's not gonna let you know that he's hurting in time. What we have to get to is we have to get to the man and let him know it's OK to processes inside. It's okay to be hurting, and it's OK to let other people know. Hey, I'm dealing with something right now. That makes sense.

spk_0:   19:41
Yeah, I think it does. But what's interesting to me is that it seems like this should be clearly understood by everybody, and apparently it's not.

spk_1:   19:49
I work for the number of managers for nine years. For five years, it reported to me there were nine of them in every morning before I had my loss for five years, they would come into my office on a casual basis and just say Good morning. But we had a chance to talk about the day, and this went on for years, and soon they became impromptu business meetings that I've relied on to know what my managers were doing for that day. And then I lost John. And guess what happened the first day I came back to work after a bereavement leave, nobody came to my door.

spk_5:   20:18
I was five hours old when I had my first surgery.

spk_2:   20:21
The only advice I couldn't really give someone like that is to be there for your family.

spk_5:   20:26
This is life, and you have to live it or you sit in a corner and cry.

spk_2:   20:30
I am in a Gorsky and the hosts of Heart to Heart with Anna. Join us on Tuesdays at noon Eastern time. On speaker are blocked. Talk radio. We'll cover topics of importance for the congenital heart defect community. Remember, my friends, you are not alone.

spk_3:   20:47
If you've enjoyed listening to this program. Please visit our website hearts, unite the globe dot org's and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of hearts Unite the Globe and is part of the Hug Podcast Network Heart. Tonight, the Globe is a non profit organization devoted to providing resource is to the congenital heart defect community to educate and power and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resource is pertaining to the CHT community, please visit our website at congenital heart defects dot com for information about CHD hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families and much, much

spk_2:   21:23
more. You are listening to heart to heart with Michael. If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael even at Michael at heart to heart with michael dot com Now back toe heart to heart with Michael

spk_3:   21:45
Run. We've been up to this point

spk_0:   21:47
extraordinarily serious in our interview, and that's always a good thing. But I know that when you work, you use a lot of humor when you speak in front of groups. So how do you make humor work when you're talking about grief a lot of

spk_1:   21:58
times in the workshops, I'll remove it to the second person. So I I don't make anybody think I'm talking directly about them. But the good thing about talking about the diversities and men and women is Aiken be second person here, and then I can start talking about those differences and how they're actually comical. Grief is such a taxing thing on both our mentality and our physicality. Once we can get laughter going, we get dopamine back in the system and endorphins it. It's got such a healing property to it both mentally and physically. We've gotta let herself laugh because I know you can tell me, because I can tell you exactly where I was the first time. I laughed after I lost John and how guilty I felt for laughing. Right?

spk_0:   22:38
You know what? I didn't feel guilty. And I'll tell you what. We've talked about Jewish grief on this program quite a bit. And, uh, for those who don't know immediately after the funeral, we get seven days where we stay home and people come to see us and know it feels as if the whole world comes through by the third or fourth day. Cabin Fever said said. It really it becomes a laugh riot at some point. So it's part of I can't tell you exactly when I left. But I know that by the third or fourth day, I must have been in stitches because I was going crazy. Oh yeah, that's

spk_1:   23:09
part of is a police officer, Reese. Call it pretty much gallows humor is what were you? You've gotta have some of that, but for a lot of people, including myself at the time, we we go to that period right off to start where we forget to feel bad for us because we're not allowed to. We have to feel bad for the fact that that person he loved is no longer with us. We forget that we've also lost a lot, but it's important to laugh. It's important to give people that out. It's like you said during that second or third day where you're sitting around. It's time to start laughing again. But for the therapeutic properties, it's amazing and also for the properties of teaching. People are walking people through different concepts of of what I call agree, Fork. You need to have them listening and nobody knows better than most of us. That humor is a wonderful way to do that. And the best medium is the difference in between men and women. When it comes to grieving and people laugh and say, Well, how can you use that as a medium? Well, let's talk about some of the things that men do. Let's just talk about George Carlin's. But what he said was, women are crazy and men are stupid. Reason why women are crazy is because men are stupid, right? That's what it comes down to. We drive women crazy because we are stupid. Men do some of the stupid things. But then so do women. So when we get in these workshop that we bring up humor, all we have to do is point out the differences in the men and women, and we can stand back at that point, Michael and say Okay, now that you're aware of some of his stupidity, now that you're aware of some of her propensities to do this and do that, don't you feel better about watching them as they go through their grief because you can understand why there you don't have to know exactly why they're doing it, but understand they're going to do it because that's who were pre wired to be. There's nothing better than going back to the Fred Flintstone days and days of the Sarah Getty and just bringing out some of the things that made us Justus goofy as we are today. But it really gives him a chance to look at each other and go. I get it. Now. I understand why you I understand why you want to go to a cave. I understand why you need your cave and say, Hey, I understand why you just want to lean on my shoulder and cry all the time. Sure, And we do that by basically letting them laugh it themselves without laughing directly at their grief. That's right, worked out wonderfully.

spk_0:   25:21
Let's stop for a second about things that you and I have both heard. Uh huh. And, you know, at that moment, you know, when we're sort of on display and we're grieving, we smile, we nod, we chuckle. But we really feel like, you know, if I could do that. Batman reach and fill your lungs out to you through your mouth, you know? Yeah, I call it

spk_1:   25:40
several punch. I just want to throw a punch. But I can't because I'm a

spk_0:   25:43
place so hit you with one or two. Ok, ok, ok, well, look at you. Look at the bright side. At least now you won't have that college tuition that was looming over your head. Yeah,

spk_1:   25:53
because I would much rather have a Maserati right now that I would have my son back. But you know what? Absolutely, I'm not gonna spend much time shopping for that now. I've got to go worry about putting him in the ground. But thanks for sharing that, Sparky.

spk_0:   26:04
God only takes the ones early that he really wants. Close.

spk_1:   26:08
That means I must be a really, really stood just a bad guy. I tell you what, if I go down and I put enough work with a local charity, you think God will come and take me early

spk_0:   26:16
to I thought you're going with the other answer. That really likes you too. Oh, yeah. I tried not to stretch it too far. Oh, yeah. God really

spk_1:   26:30
liked you because I don't have to worry about you for much longer. Even

spk_0:   26:32
go now. Let's get serious again for a minute. Coming about your website, your books and your availability is the speaker because I think people are gonna want to hear more from you.

spk_1:   26:40
Fantastic. I really appreciate that. My website to simply are glen kelly dot com, two ends and Glenn, only one. Ian Kelly. We were too lazy for the 2nd 1 and on my website you'll find that I dio basically three different platforms that I do enjoy. Doing the most to me in my initial platform when I love doing is what I called when Jack and Joe collide in grief and that really is some of the mark special things for me because we get together, especially with parents who've lost a child. You know, one of the biggest things that comes out is there. They've been told to deal. You gotta be careful. You'll end up with a divorce because you've lost a child, and that's just a complete fallacy and where we walked to where that came from. But then we walked through the differences in men and women and make them aware and give them understanding of what each of them is going toe and look at what they've gone through and understand. Why not only does it help him get along with each other, but it helps them get along with themselves. For me, I didn't understand. I went to that period where I wasn't crying, but my wife was crying. So wasn't there something wrong with me? There must be. I must not love. My son is much because I'm not crying like she is. Well, I was pre wired to be that way. The other one is grief in a workplace where, as we talked about some of these issues with grief in the workplace, in the money on I'm quite sorry toe to the list. There's and my fellow bereaved out there. But I simply go out and I hit the business community in the wallet with these numbers because you know as well as I do, there's no return on investment. They might not pick up on something compassion aside.

spk_0:   28:05
Well, I love that the compassion is also economically good. We're really short on time. So the last thing I want to ask you is what important lesson do you want our listeners to take away from hearing this podcast with you.

spk_1:   28:17
The third thing I do is go out. I do what's called the ashes to inspiration. Motivational tour. Well, I get together with those that have been through personal crisis like you and I have to feel like the bottom is dropped out or that they've been through the fire before. And I let them know that there is a life of peace and purpose out there. And I use you when I use me as examples of that were we transition now into something, It was so much better than what we are before and it were living. A life of peace and purpose and inspiration and motivation were helping people. And they don't have to help other people. They just have to realize it. Once again, they can live a life of peace and purpose. They just have to become aware of who they are. Most of us feel like we have lost two young. We lost our identity. I went through that inside of us spirit be inspired by healing, moving forward in your grief because inspired is nothing more than in spirit. And when you're in spirit. There is nothing that the universe will put in front of you to help you move forward in your healing

spk_0:   29:13
wrong then, Kelly, thank you so much for being on

spk_1:   29:15
our program. You are so welcome. I really, really am honored to be here.

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Thank you. And that concludes this episode of heart to heart with Michael. I want to thank Ron Glen Kelly for sharing his experience and wisdom with

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us. Please join us at the beginning of the month for brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon. Until then, please remember, moving forward is not moving away. Thank

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you. Thank you again for joining us. We hope you have gained strength from listening to our program. Heart to heart with Michael could be heard every Thursday at noon Eastern time. We'll talk again next time when we'll share of more stories.