Bereaved But Still Me

Talking About Grief in the Armed Forces

November 07, 2019 Sandra Schatz Season 3 Episode 11
Bereaved But Still Me
Talking About Grief in the Armed Forces
Chapters
Bereaved But Still Me
Talking About Grief in the Armed Forces
Nov 07, 2019 Season 3 Episode 11
Sandra Schatz

Dr. Sandra Schatz is a Clinical Psychologist who works with soldiers at Fort Hood Army Base.

Her days are spent conducting psychological testing, individual therapy, and group therapy for problems ranging from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) to adjusting from being away from home for the first time.

Personally, Sandra’s mother recently passed away -- in June 2019.

Originally from South Dakota, Sandra lived in San Diego, on Long Island, and several places in between before arriving in Texas three years ago. Sandra was reaching her shelf-life in Wichita, Kansas when the call of a civilian job in a military environment where there is no snow became irresistible.

When she is not working, Sandra is an active member of Toastmasters and plays in a kickball league.

In this episode of Heart to Heart with Michael she shares with Michael stories about how she helps soldiers as they deal with grief and post-traumatic stress disorder. She also shares how her own feelings about grief have changed since she has lost her mother. She also explains how families are affected when a loved one in the military is deployed to a war-torn country and how returning home can cause strained relationships.

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Show Notes Transcript

Dr. Sandra Schatz is a Clinical Psychologist who works with soldiers at Fort Hood Army Base.

Her days are spent conducting psychological testing, individual therapy, and group therapy for problems ranging from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) to adjusting from being away from home for the first time.

Personally, Sandra’s mother recently passed away -- in June 2019.

Originally from South Dakota, Sandra lived in San Diego, on Long Island, and several places in between before arriving in Texas three years ago. Sandra was reaching her shelf-life in Wichita, Kansas when the call of a civilian job in a military environment where there is no snow became irresistible.

When she is not working, Sandra is an active member of Toastmasters and plays in a kickball league.

In this episode of Heart to Heart with Michael she shares with Michael stories about how she helps soldiers as they deal with grief and post-traumatic stress disorder. She also shares how her own feelings about grief have changed since she has lost her mother. She also explains how families are affected when a loved one in the military is deployed to a war-torn country and how returning home can cause strained relationships.

Please take a moment to follow us on your preferred social media platforms:

iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/heart-to-heart-with-michael/id1333229173 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HUGPodcastNetwork/

YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGPKwIU5M_YOxvtWepFR5Zw

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hugpodcastnetwork/

If you enjoy this program and would like to be a Patron, please check out our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/HeartToHeart

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/HearttoHeart)

spk_0:   0:00
I think it's important that people get directed to the proper health care if the veterans there's the VA if they're not veterans is usually community mental health. When you could look after each other and take care of each other and help our loved ones get pointed in the right direction towards some healing and recovery

spk_2:   0:22
way. Welcome to the third season of heart to Heart with Michael, a program for the Braves community. Our purpose is to empower members of our community this season. We're taking a longer view of grief, can find healing. Can we find peace? Today's show is talking about grief in the armed forces, but before we get in today's program, I just want to take a minute to thank some patrons who have chosen to support hearts. Unite Profit organization responsible for producing heart to heart With Michael and other fine programming today, I'd like to give a shout out Brenda Pignoli, Frank and Joey Jaworski, Vicky Lucas and Nancy Johnson. Thank you for supporting our network in this programme. Today we're gonna be talking about grief and

spk_3:   1:02
war. When I was growing up in New York, most of the country was fired up about the Vietnam War, in part because there was a draft and most young men knew they might have to face the harsh reality. Today in the United States, about 1% of the population is under arms. And this being the case, America's longest war has left the vast majority of its citizens more or less unaffected by the losses of war. So I think we need to first take a moment to show our gratitude for those who are willing to do the heavy lifting and war. And secondly, to realize that multiple tours of duty can take their toll on soldiers. And it is in that light that we hold our discussion here today. Here with us now is our guest. Dr Center Shots. Sandra Shots is a clinical psychologist who works with soldiers at Fort Hood Army Base in Texas. Her days you spent conducting psychological testing, individual therapy and group therapy for problems ranging from post traumatic stress disorder to adjusting from being away from home for the first time, send his mother passed away in June 2019. Originally from South Dakota, Senator lived in San Diego, Long Island, my favorite place and several places in between. Before arriving in Texas three years ago, Sandra was reaching her shelf life in Wichita, Kansas, when the call of a civilian job in a military environment where there is no snow became irresistible When she's not working. Sandra is an active member of Toastmasters and plays in Kickball League. Sandra, thank you very much for coming to heart to heart with Michael.

spk_0:   2:21
Thank you, Michael.

spk_3:   2:23
So let's start. But you're telling us about your mother?

spk_0:   2:27
My mother passed away this summer on the occasion of her 81st birthday. She was the oldest of 10 brothers and sisters, so she was no stranger to hard work. My mother always wanted to go to college, but this was in the 19 fifties, and back then the idea was that women didn't need college because they were just gonna be housewives. So the idea of her daughter getting an education was very important to my mother. In fact, she always said that when I go to college, she would take college classes. It turned out that by the time I went off to college, she and my dad's business was doing so well. She didn't have time which was always very proud of my education. One of my proudest moments was in Wichita. Shortly after I graduated and started my first job. My mom was with me and we were walking through the mall. A co worker walked by and said, Good afternoon, Dr Shots and my mom just froze and she turned to me and she say, What did they say? Said she called me Dr Shots. That's what they call me at work. And my mom was just in awe that somebody would speak to me that way. And from there on, whatever I would call it should answer the phone. Good evening, Dr Shots.

spk_3:   3:38
You know, in Jewish families, it's my son, the doctor, Right?

spk_0:   3:43
So one thing my mother used to say to me, particularly when I was upset with my dad, was men think different than women, and I used that in my work a lot. I have young married soldiers come in, and there's some communication problems at home. So the wife wants to tell the husband or what's going on because she wants to process out loud invent. The husband wants to give the solution so he jumps to the solution, but that's not what she wanted. When he talks about his problems, he wants her to offer solutions. She figures hailed was given space to talk. Once I point that out to them and they know that they're looking at different communication styles, they can usually make the adjustment and appreciate that piece of advice

spk_3:   4:28
that is one of the most airtight metal, most important pieces of marriage advice I've ever gotten. And I married now almost 32 years. That's that's impressive. Thank you for that.

spk_0:   4:38
My parents were married for 60 years. She'd certainly know a lot about being married. Now professionally have dealt a lot with grief, and I thought I got it until she passed away. This was the first significant loss in my life. I've had other losses and broken relationships and tight the sex of bad things that happen in life that are initially pretty hard. But as time goes on, they get easier and easier. However, what I found was this prefect my mother's loss Waas. I'll be going about my day just fine. And then out of the blue, an emotional hit me or I'll hear song on the radio or something will remind me of her, and I'll start crying for 15 minutes.

spk_3:   5:19
All right, that's all that.

spk_0:   5:22
Then I just go back to whatever I was doing. So it's almost like I've been imagining that as the bubbles in a soda Can that kind of randomly pop up whenever? Right? So that's a new experience for me.

spk_3:   5:33
Do you find that people ask you questions about your mother? Like they'll say something? How old was she? Because as one of the questions I really detest about having lost a parent, I lost my father and people. How old was he? As if to say, you know, if he was 90? Well, that's OK, then. But it's really not. And the loss of a parent is something that we all eventually go through if we live in what seems to us to be a normal lifestyle, right, But we're never really prepared for it our way.

spk_0:   6:01
No, no. And I thought it was prepared for it.

spk_3:   6:03
So tell us about why you decided to become a counselor.

spk_0:   6:06
That was not the original plan. When I left for college, I was gonna major in physics because I was good at math It turns out I wasn't good at physics or any of the other majors that I tried in college at a year left in college when I transferred to my final school and I asked the register, If you just find me whatever our major would get me out of there the quickest. Give me a degree and get out. Now I should say that this whole process took about seven years. That wasn't terribly mature at the beginning, Okay, but at the end, I pulled it together when it was a pretty good student, so I tried some different things. When I got out of college, I tried insurance Department of Corrections be the 9 11 dispatcher, and that wasn't very good any of those things, either, so into graduate school to become a psychologist and originally started out as an experiment in experimental psychology. That's what I was doing on Long Island doing research and after about 18 months by advisor, suggested to me that I might be a better fit for clinical psychology, So I switched over to a clinical program On the first day of school. I'm standing outside the building, thinking I wanted to know what a psychologist knows, But I don't want to do it. A psychologist does.

spk_3:   7:15
What's the difference?

spk_0:   7:16
The difference is that psychologists know a whole lot of stuff, and I wanted to know a whole lot of stuff. Okay, I didn't necessarily want to sit and listen to people's problems. Oh, okay, which is why I perceived the job is B was just listening to people complain. You know,

spk_3:   7:31
it's funny. I've known a few psychologists, and none of them have ever said that all of them said it's the most fascinating job they've ever had.

spk_0:   7:38
I'm getting there. That's part my story. Okay, sorry. It gets. So it ended up that the clinical psychology program was where I belonged. And once I started my practical experience and my internship and started my first job, I really did enjoy it, and I found it to be less about just listening to people whine and more about helping people come to terms with where they're at and problem solved, moving forward. So I do find it to be a fascinating job, and I absolutely love it.

spk_3:   8:06
So have you ever been in the military? Did you have any previous contact with the military to make you want to become a counselor in the military or have that work out.

spk_0:   8:14
I have never been in the military. My dad was in the military in the early fifties before he met my mother. He didn't care for the part of being yelled at all the time and you didn't care for the food. And it's certainly not what he wanted for his daughter. So I was encouraged to go in opposite direction. However, I was raged with a strong sense of patriotism and an appreciation for all the young men and women who were putting their lives on the line out there. I was working in Kansas with the spear and persistently mentally ill, which is an easy burnout opportunity because their extreme mental health challenges. So when I saw the job opened up at Fort Hood, it was Texas. There's no snow in Texas and the idea of working with people who have mental health issues that I could actually help them with, that we could make progress. It's even very inviting. So about three years ago, I started working here. One issue soldiers have when they start in the military is they go from being whoever they were in high school, where everybody knew them to be in this little fish in this big pond where they're nobody. And I had a very similar experience because of my clinic in Kansas. I was the big fish in a little pond. I came here and I was nobody again. Now, soldiers, Eventually, with their time and their range, they start getting some privileges and respected as a psychologist, you know, the other people are around post and you start getting your respect. So things have gotten better. But I didn't have the initial small fish big pond feeling for the longest time.

spk_3:   9:44
Yeah, well, you're also, I think, if I'm not mistaken, Fort Hood is the largest military base. Maybe in the world. Yes. So that's not That's not a pool that that's a notion.

spk_0:   9:56
It's it's It's a size of a mid sized house.

spk_3:   10:00
Wow. And you're a guppy in that town, you know? Sure,

spk_0:   10:03
I was. They got me. I'm growing.

spk_3:   10:06
Are you a barracuda yet?

spk_0:   10:08
Not quite yet. They're not scared of me, Keith yet so?

spk_3:   10:12
Well, that's all right. No, but it's interesting that you would You would choose to go to a place like that. What year did you go

spk_0:   10:18
there? Three years. So the war's been

spk_3:   10:20
going on for a long time. You were aware of what you're getting yourself into. It's not, you know, it's not like, Wow, what a surprise.

spk_2:   10:25
But yeah, I think it takes a special kind of person who wouldn't wantto put herself into that and contribute in that way as well as anybody else to the war effort and to give back to the soldiers. But I think they deserve

spk_1:   10:48
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spk_2:   10:59
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spk_1:   11:03
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spk_5:   11:22
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spk_1:   11:54
You are listening to heart to heart with Michael. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on Michael's program, please email him at Michael at heart to heart with michael dot com. Now back to our program

spk_3:   12:09
Santa. Let's talk about soldiers and the kind of grief they have to deal with. In the intro. We talked about soldiers having homesickness. Can you define homesickness for us? And how? How is that related to grief?

spk_0:   12:21
I worked with a lot of young soldiers who are away from home for the first time, so in some ways the deal is the same. Homesickness is a college student, but it's much different coming in the military. All of a sudden, you're getting yelled at for everything you do, and you're starting to realize that 4 to 6 years, that contract you signed a lot longer than you were thinking it. Waas, and the full extent of what you have committed to is starting to catch on this idea that you may go overseas and you may not come back home. So they're starting to wonder. Did I make a mistake signing up for this? And I work with him to see that the challenge is to keep going forward. It's emotional discomfort. So when it comes to physical pain, that's bad, that cause tissue damage. We want to stop doing that, but with emotional pain, that's simply uncomfortable. So we want to work on getting through it and moving on, because what you'll learn through that will help you with the next challenges that come up in your life. So I really see emotional pain as being a road sign, not a stop sign.

spk_3:   13:32
What is that road sign say?

spk_0:   13:34
Well, it depends what you needed to say. For some people, it tells you you need to veer off to the left or someone tells you to veer off to the right, for someone tells you to speed up or slow down whatever, but you keep going to get to your goal in your destination. The skills you learn in the process of doing that will help you later in life, because without a doubt, these people will face additional challenges in their life both in and out of the military. So I try to help them see it in that way.

spk_3:   13:59
You would think that that could make you stand still on Dhe. That could make you afraid to move forward.

spk_0:   14:05
It certainly does. And so that's where my role comes in. It's to encourage them along and help them see that to keep moving forward is the right direction. Most of the time, by the time they wind up at Fort Hood, they've been through their basic training, which is the worst of it, and they've been through their advanced training on how to do their jobs. So compared to those two training periods, once you get to your real job at Fort Hood, it's actually a little easier. There are people yelling at you constantly used to be yelled a lot, but only during working hours looking a lot more privileges, and you did when you were in basic training. So life in general gets a little better for them when they're here. It's just the realization starts to set in of What did I get myself into?

spk_3:   14:49
See, I'm comparing that to my basic. I was drafted. I was. I was an old man. I was already in my thirties on. I went to a very, very short basic training, basically to take the box that I had been to training, and they dealt with us so completely differently. They had to be nice to us. People ask me, Did you run a lot in the Army? And I said only to the bathroom. My basic was basic deluxe, and I went. I went straight into reserves the week later. So it was a completely different history than I had. Now, in your intro, we talked about how soldiers come to you with the condition that we talked about a lot lately, and that's post traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD. Can you tell us how you help soldiers dealing with PTSD? And what kind of greed comes from being played with that condition?

spk_0:   15:31
I'd like to start by talking a little bit about what post traumatic stress disorder is. Our brains have a part called the Amygdala, and that is what's in charge of the fight or flight phenomenon. So when we feel threatened, either we're going to protect ourselves, we're gonna get ourselves to safety. That's the signal of it's kicking the anxiety to make that happen. Now for most of us. Let's see, I'm on my way to work and I get into a near car crash. My *** will shoot up into high gear. But then, when I realized I'm safe, it'll come back now and again, however, a soldier in a war experience that a Michaela goes into high gear, and it doesn't really have the opportunity to go back to low gear. Well, so let's say you and your body we're out doing a mission and your buddy should get blown up. You don't get the luxury of stopping and mourning the loss. You have to keep going forward with the mission. When you're done with submission, you might go back to the base. You might have a chance to talk to the chaplain or maybe a coworker, but tomorrow you better be ready to go full speed again, as if it never happened. But it did happen. So you have to learn how to cage that up and control it bottling up so that you can function now the Mikola stay stuck in high gear and you leave the war zone and you come back here. If the United States and your spouse is expected in the same person who left but you come back in, your Magdala is in high gear.

spk_3:   17:05
How long can it stay in high gear? Like, uh,

spk_0:   17:07
we're talking about the cases where it doesn't come back now. So you're home with your family, and yes, you and I would observe that they're safe, but they don't feel safe because the signal is still in high gear. So they're driving along the Highway 35 in Texas and they see a McDonald's bag along the side of the road. Now, in a war zone, something as innocuous as a hamburger bag could be a roadside bomb. So it's really a matter of life and death that you avoid that. So here you are, driving along in the S. U really be with the wife of the kids. You see that crash big? You slam on the brakes, sure of your vehicle because you try to affect your family and drive off. You know, like just thinking you're absolutely nuts. It totally makes sense for a peek. Yes, perspective what you're doing. So yes, you think you're doing the right thing and you're shocked to learn that your spouses and kids think you're being stifling and overprotective and you think you're just being realistic. I should also mention that in addition to the toll that deploying multiple times has on soldiers, it's a real toll on the family as well.

spk_3:   18:14
That I would think that's one of the biggest sacrifices that goes unknown in wartime is the family that stays behind.

spk_0:   18:21
The parent who stays behind has to become a single parent for a year, and that changes the dynamics of the family. And then all of a sudden you're back and you're a little different than you were before. So there's lots of new challenge is getting back just adjusting.

spk_3:   18:34
Sure, what's the percentage of PTSD and in the military is there is a lot of people

spk_0:   18:40
know there's probably Maur now than there was 20 years ago because those 1st 10 years in Iraq there were a lot of really ugly things that happened at those times Have a lot of those soldiers were exposed to PTSD. They learn to bottle it up and they came back and they functioned, keeping it bottled up. They're afraid to talk about it. First of all, I don't think anyone's gonna understand. Second of all, they're afraid it could cost them their career if they do talk about it. If anybody sees the Army has a very macho culture shows, so showing weakness is not a

spk_3:   19:15
lot right. But you've got people who have a real serious affliction here. Absolutely. How does the army deal with that duality that you know? Don't talk about it, but these guys need help.

spk_0:   19:26
If it starts, Just show. If you start getting irritable at work,

spk_1:   19:30
start acting different, someone's gonna pick up on it. And you fucked me.

spk_5:   19:37
I was five hours old when I had my first surgery.

spk_1:   19:40
The only advice I could really give someone like that is to be there for your family.

spk_5:   19:45
This is life and you have to live it or you're in a corner and cry.

spk_1:   19:50
I am in a Gorski and the host of heart to heart with Anna join us on Tuesdays at noon Eastern time on Speaker R Block Talk radio. We'll cover topics of importance for the congenital heart defect community. Remember, my friends, you are not alone.

spk_2:   20:07
If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website hearts. Unite the globe dot or GE and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of hearts. Unite the globe and it's part of the Hug Podcast Network are tonight The Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resource is to the congenital heart defect community to educate and power and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resource is pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenital Heart defects dot com for information about CHD hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families and much, much more.

spk_1:   20:46
You are listening to heart to heart with Michael. If you have a question or comment that you would like a dressed on our program, please send an email to Michael even at Michael at heart to heart with michael dot com Now back toe heart to heart with Michael

spk_3:   21:01
Center We know that one of the worst things soldiers have to deal with is the loss of another soldier. So let's talk about the kind of work you do with those soldiers who have lost someone on their team.

spk_0:   21:11
The first thing is to get them to talk about it. The second thing is to simply teach them some steps to help calm themselves down real accusation techniques. So as they start talking about it, they can be in control of their emotions. That's good. When a person dies, a lot of times the people around them will take on unnecessary blame. So if the soldier who dies was actually had switched shifts with you and was working, you were supposed to work. There's a lot of self blame that's not appropriate. So helping soldiers sort out which of their thoughts about what happened are accurate and which ones aren't accurate and helping and see the picture Clearly, that's one important thing that I do. The other important thing I do is I convinced them that their wives, they're not crazy for the way their wives are acting towards them, a CZ we said the wife might not understand and there's a lot of things that go on and war that the people back here don't understand. And soldiers don't want to talk about that. They also don't like the label of PTSD level. Many of my soldiers have had either parents, fathers or uncles were in Vietnam, and they know that the condition that they were under was still as horrible as it. Waas was still so much better than the situation in Vietnam, and they feel that if they take on the label of PTSD, they're actually dishonoring the PTSD veterans of Vietnam. So part of helping them see that it's not a contest. Them having PTSD and the Vietnam soldiers having PTSD backing co exist. So I'm helping them come to terms with the situation that happened. I'm helping them learn to deal with their emotions, to normalize the situation. One thing we like to say about post traumatic stress disorder is that it is the normal reaction to an abnormal situation. Perfect. It's not the way that the soldier feels that's the problem. The problem is what they went through both in and out of war. There are situations that happen like that just should not happen when they do there are some expected outcomes. The anxiety, the sleeplessness, the nightmares these things happen is a collection of symptoms. And those symptoms are normal for anybody who has been in your situation in that soldier situation. So to help him try to see that and normalize it a little bit, take away some of the shame. Help them see that this is not a weakness that they're facing. That's that's my goal. With that,

spk_3:   23:56
it seems like it's rather taboo to talk about war. But we know that our soldiers have to deal with losses of war. Do you ever help? Soldiers who've retired now may be dealing with memories of loss that perhaps they hadn't really fully processed before. And I ask you this because we had recently a guest who she herself is a therapist and lost her brother in Israel's war of independence over 70 years ago. And she said, Whenever you face a new challenge, you have to go back and re process old challenges that you had before. So let's talk about people who have retired, and maybe now they're okay. But maybe not quite so case we think

spk_0:   24:34
well, and it can be different things that bring up the old PTSD. I had a soldier recently who had a serious health crisis of his own. Prior to that, he was able to deal with his war memories adequately on his own. But then he had this terrible, life threatening condition, which almost cost him his career. Fortunately, it was reversible and was able to make a full recovery. But the trauma of that brought up all of the nightmares from the past, and suddenly the stuff from the past became too much for empty handle on his own, and he had to reach out for help. So we do see that new trauma brings up the old trauma.

spk_3:   25:18
Tell us a little bit more about what it's like to work with the retirees, and how did they get to you if they've been retired?

spk_0:   25:24
I don't personally work with retirees. The VA handles the retirees, so I work with soldiers who are in the middle of their career. Some of them are reaching the retirement point once

spk_2:   25:35
they get

spk_0:   25:35
close enough to see the retirement light at the end of the tunnel. Then they start to feel it's a little more safe to come in and talk about what they're going on there no longer worry about their careers. So I see a lot of soldiers who have 18 or 20 years of experience on their wife sends them in. When I asked them what's wrong, they say, Well, maybe I've been a little irritable and I asked them, What would your wife say if I called her? Then I get well, you know what, the Children, all the time. I'm screaming in my sleep. I'm that. Then they come out and tell you what's really going on with you, and part of it's helping them see the link between what they went through, how their brain reacted to what they went through and how that's applying to them now, how that's affecting them now and help them see that it's a normal progression. It's not a fun progression that it is a normal progression.

spk_3:   26:27
Are they surprised by the concept that it may be something that happened 18 years ago that suddenly now is reliving itself in their head

spk_0:   26:35
initially. But once they get to thinking about it, they can usually see it, and then they come back a couple weeks later and they've had time to think about it and they say, Oh yeah, okay,

spk_3:   26:45
because I would think that would be one of the hardest parts of therapy at that stage is get in to realize that you've been hiding it really well. But it's up now and sea it's time to deal.

spk_0:   26:54
I tried to help them see that that's something they should take pride in. Not that I typically encourage people toe bottle things up, but if you made it through your entire career by keeping it bottled up, that was a strength. But now it's affecting your life. It's affecting your family. It's affecting your future. Let's deal with it now so that it doesn't cause you problems down the road

spk_3:   27:17
like that. Coming to it is a source of strength because now you have something that you can base them. Let's use that strength that you've developed and let's go ahead and deal with it. I like that because it's not, I think intuitive that that's a strength.

spk_0:   27:30
People are typically surprised when I bring it out that direction.

spk_3:   27:33
Lastly, what's the most important lesson that you want our listeners to take away from here in this podcast. Something about how we can move forward with what we carry.

spk_0:   27:44
P P S d like grief is not a death sentence. Neither are desired goals. We wouldn't choose either, but they both provide outstanding opportunities for personal growth. PTSD certainly provides the opportunity to develop post traumatic girl. I think it's important that discussions about health care, either at the national level or local level include mental health care. And I think it's important that people get directed to the proper health care if the veterans there's the VA if they're not, veterans is usually community mental health. When you look after each other and take care of each other and help our loved ones get pointed in the right direction towards some healing and recovery,

spk_3:   28:22
I really want to thank you for that because one of the things that we talked about here a lot in grief, is how to move on how to move forward. So thank you for that.

spk_0:   28:31
Well, I could you let me be on the show.

spk_3:   28:32
It's been my pleasure the entire half hour and thank you for your sharing, your experience and your wisdom with us. It's been very, very enlightening in many, many ways. And I hope that people will learn from this tonight

spk_2:   28:42
That concludes this episode of heart to Heart with Michael. I want to thank Dr Sanders shots for sharing her experience. Please join us at the beginning of the month for a brand new podcast. I'll talk with you again soon, but until then, remember, moving forward is not moving away. Thank you.

spk_1:   29:00
Thank you again for joining us. We hope you have gained strength from listening to our program. Heart to heart with Michael can be heard every Thursday at noon Eastern time. We'll talk again next time when we'll share more stories.