Sometimes the Answer is “No"

Can we talk to people who have a different faith than we do about grief and death? What can we learn from each other? What value is there in talking to people of different faiths when it comes to grief and grieving?

Stacy Henagan is a co-pastor of Keypoint Church in northwest Arkansas — a multi-campus church she founded with her husband, Casey. She is also an author, speaker, and conference host. Stacy hosts an annual women’s conference and speaks at other events in the United States and overseas. Stacy and Casey are the parents of 4 children — Haven, who is waiting for them in heaven, and Holland, Hayes, and Hudson. Haven was diagnosed with brain cancer as an infant. Stacy is the author of “Breathe Again: Choosing to Believe There’s More When Life Has Left You Broken.” 

Link to Stacy's book on Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/4jnp3hn6

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Transcript

Stacy Henagan: 0:00

Something else really devastating can happen in my life and God forbid it, I do not want it to happen, but I know that I will make it through.

Michael Liben: 0:13

Can we talk to people who have different faith than we do about grief and death? Can we learn from each other? What value is there in talking to people of different faiths when it comes to grief and grieving? Welcome to the 61st episode of "Bereaved But Still Me", the podcast formerly known as "Heart to Heart with Michael", a program for the bereaved community. Our purpose is to empower bereaved members of our community with resources, support and advocacy information. Today's program is"Sometimes the Answer is No". Stacy is a co-pastor of Keypoint Church in Northwest Arkansas, a multi campus church she founded with her husband, Casey. She's also an author, speaker and conference host. Stacy holds an annual women's conference and speaks at other events in the United States and overseas. Stacy and Casey are the parents of four children. Haven, who is waiting for them in heaven, and Holland, Hayes and Hudson. Haven was diagnosed with brain cancer as an infant. Stacy is the author of "Breathe Again - Choosing To Believe There's More When Life Has Left You Broken". Stacy and I share the loss of young children. In both of our cases, we were given the opportunity to consider the final days of our children's lives. We were able to ponder our faith, our relationships with God, and to think about the meaning of our situations regarding our faith, and dare I say, the expectations for what was to come. Thank you so much for joining us Stacy.

Stacy Henagan: 1:35

Michael, thank you for having me. I really look forward to talking with you today.

Michael Liben: 1:39

I think we're open for a really good conversation. And let's start with talking about your faith. You are a co-pastor of a Christian church. Can you tell us more about your church and your churche's denomination?

Stacy Henagan: 1:50

Yeah, well, our church is nondenominational. Which really just means that we aren't affiliated or under any other type of Christian denomination. Really, we just teach that God wants a relationship with us. And we received that relationship through Jesus. And it's really simple. It's just a life giving, we like to have fun and relational type church.

Michael Liben: 2:12

How do you have fun at church?

Stacy Henagan: 2:14

You know, we're just fun people, I like to think. We have just some exciting kind of worship, and we really emphasize relationships, genuine relationships, so that just kind of lends itself to some fun.

Michael Liben: 2:32

During our pre-interview, we talked about

the voice of God: 2:35

"Kol dmamah dakah". And I'd like to talk about that today. People have different ideas about what God's voice is like. Tell me how you perceive his voice.

Stacy Henagan: 2:46

Okay, well, first, you have to say that to me again, in Hebrew, I love it.

Michael Liben: 2:51

Kol dmamah dakah, it means "a still, small voice."

Stacy Henagan: 2:55

I love that. Okay, so how how do I perceive God's voice? Well, I, to me, God's voice comes in different forms. It's come through other people, you know, encouragement, or maybe listening to a song and I just felt like it spoke just to me. But I think most often for me, it comes through that inner small voice exactly what you were saying. It's kind of it's, I guess it's a voice that is inside of me. But I know it's not me because it's often telling me to do something that I would not do, such as something like forgive or love that person when you do not want to really love them. So I, another thing I like to think of it as is, the Bible calls God our Heavenly Father. And so I know my dad's voice, I can pick my dad's voice out of a large crowd. I know his voice. I will know it until the day I die. And I just think of my God's voice in the same way. He's my Heavenly Father. And I believe that we know His voice when he speaks to us, especially because he really wants us to hear it.

Michael Liben: 3:58

Is that comforting? Or is it frightful?

Stacy Henagan: 4:02

For me, it's comforting, because any words I've ever gotten from him, have been encouraging words, even the ones that are rebukes. I think for a lot of people, it may be frightening because perhaps their view of God is not a good father. But if you grew up in a home with a really good father, I think maybe you have an easier time seeing him that way, God that way. But, he is, even in his rebukes, just like a good father would, there's love because it's all for your benefit, not for your detriment.

Michael Liben: 4:37

That's very interesting that you said that because what happens if you grew up in a home where your father wasn't much of a father figure? Which unfortunately is a lot of people. How do you get around that?

Stacy Henagan: 4:44

Well, I grew up in that kind of home. My parents were married very early in their teenage years and then divorced very early, and so I really didn't have much of a relationship with my own father, so I totally get that. But at a very young age, I gave my heart to Christ and kind of got to know the Lord. And so he shaped his own view of fatherhood to me. So, now my dad and I have a relationship with each other, but it took many, many years. So, I just think that God created his own idea of who a father is to me through my relationship with him.

Michael Liben: 5:17

As you put your father's voice on it, I think that's fascinating. I have to percolate that for a long time to fully wrap my head around it. I think that's fascinating that you did that. It also speaks to your perhaps getting on a better footing with your father.

Stacy Henagan: 5:35

You're exactly right. Yeah, because I know that our earthly fathers, they're human beings, they're going to make mistakes, some worse than others. And I don't look at God that way, because he is the perfect father, but our earthly fathers, they're broken people just like we are.

Michael Liben: 5:50

Well, as a father, I can absolutely tell you that we're not perfect. But I want to ask you something else. As long as you put it in the context of your heavenly father is a lot like your earthly father. Our relationships with our parents can sometimes be transactional, you know, we agree to be good if or they'll reward us if. Is your faith transactional that way? Like, I will believe in you, or I will do what you say, because I know that you will somehow reward me. Is that, that's a transactional faith?

Stacy Henagan: 6:24

And that is a good question. And I think so many people, myself included, can fall into that trap. But I do not believe that is the foundation of Christian faith. We can get there easily. But we should always go back to really what the foundation is, and that is about having a relationship. I guess I can say it like this - relational access to our creator, which then of course, is relationship. But ultimately, we serve God because he deserves it not so he can bless us. I mean that's what it should be about. But, this is what I love about God, and is that in just like, in any relationship, there are transactions that naturally happen. I mean, with my husband, there's transactions, I love him, he loves me, he buys me gifts, because he loves me. But that's not why I love him. So, it's sort of like with my relationship with God, or when I gave my heart to Christ, I receive salvation. That's just part of it. But that's not why I do it. But to me, the very idea of you giving your life to Christ means you give him control, which means, "Okay, it's not my will, it's your will God". But the good part about our God is I believe that his will is good and perfect. So I guess to answer your question, I think that there are inherent things about who God is that comes along with him, when you're in relationship with him. You know, the goodness, the lovingness, the protection of him, the healing side of him, but also he's sovereign. And at the end of the day, he can do what he wants to do.

Michael Liben: 7:53

That brings something interesting because listeners will perhaps remember, on a different program, in Hebrew, there are two different words for faith. And there's sort of two different kinds of thing. One is "emunah", which means faith like you and I would think about faith, and the other one is "bittachon", which really means security or trust. So you're talking about when you give yourself over, when you accept a decision that perhaps you don't really like, but your faith says things tend to unfold the way they should be, then you're taking that leap, then you're going and accepting, in advance, even if you think you might not like the answer coming.

Stacy Henagan: 8:34

I think that's great. And in fact, in "Breathe Again", my book, I wrote a lot about the latter definition of faith, about the trusting. And I think the only way, truly for me, and I'm not speaking for every person, not even for every Christian, but the only way that I can have that kind of faith that scripture talks about is because I know that I know that God is good and that he loves me. And just like, with your, if you have really good parents or that you are or if you know your parents love you. In the end, what they choose to, think about a teenager - Okay, you can't go to that party. Well, why not? Because I know it's not good for you. But how do you know? Well, because I'm your parent, I know a little bit more than you. Like, I mean, we've all had teenagers. It's sort of like that.

Michael Liben: 9:20

But, I'm sorry for laughing but my mother's favorite line, I think all of my life, and she's still with us, and I love her dearly. If you disagree and say, "Well, why?" she'll just say, "Because I'm your mother".

Stacy Henagan: 9:30

Because I'm your mother, right. That's what God tells us because I am God, just listen to me. But you know that his motives for withholding something that maybe you want or whatever, is because it's not for your good. It might be something that ultimately harms you or ultimately doesn't bring honor to his kingdom or to his name or whatever. And so I think for me, hands down, the kind of faith that I want to live with is the kind of trusts God and I can only truly trust I asked him when I know that he is good and he has my best interests in mind.

Anna Jaworski: 10:04

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 10:44

Stacey, tell us about your daughter Haven and how Haven's life has affected your life.

Stacy Henagan: 10:49

Well, Haven was our firstborn, and she was diagnosed with brain cancer at about 11 months old, which was just crazy to think about. The doctor said she was probably born with the cancer or received it shortly after birth, because the tumor that was in her brain was about the size of a tangerine, so you can imagine in a small infant's head... Exactly, exactly. And that was just really hard to understand how in the world something like that happened. And of course, you don't get answers to that. But within days, we moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where she had several major brain surgeries. And then we were told that the tumor was cancerous, it was malignant. So we went on to St. Jude, which is also in Memphis. We were patients there. And she started chemotherapy at that young age, and she was doing well. But about at 10 weeks, they had a routine evaluation. They said, you know, totally normal, we just want to see if we need to tweak the chemotherapy or how it's doing what everything is looking like. We did not expect the results. The results were that the cancer had come back, but this time it was inoperable. So our only choice basically, that they gave us was to move home, and just wait until the end, basically. So we moved home with one goal and that goal was to see God heal her and to ask for healing and really believe for it, which is what we did on scripture. And we believe it tells us that Jesus heals, I mean, all through the New Testament, we asked for healing, we prayed for healing, we did everything on our end, to show God, "Hey, we believe". But at the end of it, he chose to heal her in a different way. And she ended up on October 19, 1999. That was about five months after we were told that it was inoperable. She ended up passing away in my arms in our master bedroom in a rocking chair right next to our bed. And it was very challenging, obviously, like anyone can imagine, for us to deal with. But it also kind of challenged my faith in what I believed about God as well.

Michael Liben: 13:02

I can understand that we had a very similar ending. Liel had an epileptic seizure, and she lives two hours away. So we got the call at six fifteen in the morning, that we needed to get up there really fast and get to the hospital. And when we got there, the doctor put us right into it. He said you got two choices, bad and really bad. And really bad as that she might wake up. So what happened in our family was very similar to yours with one twist, my son and daughter and my wife went into, I'm going to call this transactional mode, but I'm not sure if that's really right. That's where they began to pray. And they began to read psalms, and they did everything that you're supposed to do to I don't know, show God or to ask for healing. And I went right over into acceptance. I want it to be "bittachon", I went into security. And I tried to understand that you can ask for whatever you want, as hard as you think you can ask for it. But sometimes the answer is no. And I had to deal with that. My children said you have no faith. And I said, "Well, actually I have buckets of faith. But my faith tells me that things are going to work out the way they should, not necessarily the way we want to." And so right here, you see that the two different kinds of faith working. I think I was there and ready to catch them when they began to fall because I had jumped over all the stages and went directly into acceptance. And, what I prevented from myself was that I always thought because, you know, my daughter had been sick her whole life, she had a heart disease and all kinds of other complications. And I always thought to myself, if he takes her we're done, but that didn't happen, and it didn't happen because my faith said things are as they should be whether you like it or not, and I accepted that and I avoided, I think my children may have been setting themselves up for crisis. Right?"I asked for this. You didn't give it to me now what?" So, I was able to avoid that and I was able to move into a safer place, it seems to me that eventually you found that safer place. How did you get there?

Stacy Henagan: 15:05

I did. And I didn't avoid that. But that's just a difference in our reactions. I don't think either one is right or wrong. I didn't avoid it. And I feel I feel like what happened for me was that my questioning led me to, honestly, what I would say is a deeper relationship with God. So I feel like in any type of relationship, I like to liken my relationship with God, just say to a marriage, or really a best friend, whatever. When there is conflict, sometimes it can strengthen the relationship. And I drew myself closer to God, which thus in return he drew closer to me. And I think that actually strengthened us. For some people it can destroy, but perhaps they may not be drawing closer to God that may be pushing away. I don't know. They, you know, only each person can answer that. But I think that's how that's how I handled it, at least,

Michael Liben: 16:02

What I'm hearing here is that there are different kinds of faith that we tend to go through at different moments. Whatever is more comfortable, whatever we think is going to work, whatever. Really what we need from faith is to feel better. So at some point, you know, you get a certain strength by saying, "Well, we're going to pray, and we're going to make this happen". But in my faith, prayer is not magic, you can ask for things, but you can't tell God what to do. I'm not saying that one kind of faith is better than another, I just think that sometimes you need the appropriate kind of faith. When you come to a situation where you clearly are going to lose on this and acceptance of of a leap over the edge that says, "You're in charge, I'll take it" I think it's going to get you over this, or at least bring you through it.

Stacy Henagan: 16:45

I like that you said that. Because I agree, it can sometimes seem like we are saying, God, this is what I want you to do. And I think there's probably been a lot of times where I have said, God, this is what I want you to do. But in our case, with asking for her healing, what we were doing was bringing God back to what he said he would do in the New Testament, which was heal, and in in the Old Testament, too. So for us, it wasn't we want you to heal, do it now. It was basically us saying your word says to ask and you will be healed. And that's what Jesus died for. And so we're asking that you would put that into practice in our child's life. So it wasn't just something we were pulling out of the air, it was something that we believe we can stand on in his word and ask him for.

Michael Liben: 17:30

Well, I think that's okay. But I think what happens is sometimes you're not gonna get the answer you like.

Stacy Henagan: 17:34

Yeah. Isn't it interesting that the things that You can ask for anything. You have to make a certain decision. I never for a minute lost my faith. I never for a minute we think will kill us, once you walk through them, and you do said, okay, God, we're done. And I always thought I would. But at the moment when it became critical, I shifted into this"bittachon" I shifted into a security mode that says, "You have some faith with you, you realize, you know what, that did know what God is doing what he knows to do and I don't know from nothing about that". And that's really what it is. And not take me out. And I what how that has helped me for my the hardest thing is to take that leap, to take that faith and say, okay, go, because you're absolutely giving up any modicum of control you ever thought you had. future, is I know that I know that something else really devastating can happen in my life. And God forbid, I do not want it to happen, but I know that I will make it through.

Michael Liben: 18:32

You know, I'm not so sure if something like that whatever, God forbid, happened again, I don't know what I would do. I really don't, I hope that I would, I would know and I imagine that when we get to those points, we do know. Because up until now we have. And so again, that's another question of faith, is I don't know what I'm going to do. But I have faith that it'll somehow work out.

Stacy Henagan: 18:53

Well, exactly. And I think to further that, I know that life continues. I know that it does. It doesn't continue how I want it, but it continues. And and I think that's a fear that a lot of people deal with is if this happens, how will my life continue? It just feels like it never will. But I know now walking through it, it does continue.

Michael Liben: 19:14

Well before we close out the segment, let's take that one step further. Is there a universal nature of bereavement? Is there something that no matter who we are or where we come from, is common in our bereavement?

Stacy Henagan: 19:27

I think absolutely, yes. I mean, life is tough for every single person, it doesn't matter who you are. And I think that suffering befalls everyone the rich, the poor, man, woman, every religion. And I don't think that we were created to suffer loss. So therefore we're all going to feel the pain of it. And we all have to get through the pain of

Michael Liben: 19:46

I don't know if we weren't created to suffer it. loss, but I do know that we were created in such a way that we will experience loss. And so that's something that's just a part of our being and that we're going to have to accept. It's a part of human nature is that things happen. But that we don't necessarily have any control over. I've always thought that, that every grief is personal, and therefore different, but that there are common lines, that we all face, and it's through those common lines that we can contact and talk to each other, and then learn from our experience. If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org, and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe, and is part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com. For information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. Stacy, I know that you've dedicated your life to helping others spiritually, and that leads us to your book. So please explain about your book who you wrote it for, why you wrote it, and who do you think really needs it?

Stacy Henagan: 21:16

Well, I wrote it because, number one, I went through something like that, and I do feel like over time, now granted, I wrote it 20 years later. So there was a lot that I had to reflect back over and learn from over that course of time. But as a pastor, I just saw so many people getting stuck in their disappointment. So yes, the story is about the loss of our child, but the book I wouldn't say is just about loss, and especially loss of loss of a loved one, it's more just disappointment in life, when things are not going how you expected them to go, and how to move forward past that disappointment. I felt very disappointed at times with God, and with life through all of that. But, God helped me move forward with hope and with joy, and I, I see so many people not in that place. And I want everyone to experience that. I want people to go through, after they go through hard times to say you know what I can have hope and joy again. And so I'm not going to get stuck in this trying to figure out why and how and, and frustrated place of disappointment. Along with the book also recorded some video teachings and some devotionals because I really want to see people get unstuck, and to know that there's a good future that awaits them.

Michael Liben: 22:37

You know, I think that's the paradox of creation is that we are here, as God's creation, we are here in some sense to serve God. And yet, the humanity that he has given us allows us to feel disappointed with God. It allows us through free will to say I don't like this, I'm not happy, I'm not well. And I think that the trick or the goal is to experience that in a way that you can learn from it and bring yourself back

Stacy Henagan: 23:08

Now that's good. And I also think that God, God to God.

Michael Liben: 23:09

That's interesting. In Judaism, I'm not himself brings us back to Him. I believe that he pursues us when sure there is a thought that he pursues us. But I think the we don't even realize it. And just like grace, the grace that we have every morning, even people that do some really evil things, that they have the grace to get up and take another breath that morning, I think it's kind of the same, you know, we can be cursing God, but yet, he will pursue us to bring us bigger thought is that he waits for us, that he's infinitely back to him. patient, and and he'll wait. But, I think the challenge of Judaism is to find your way back, that you have to want to come back to God, you have to want to be there. And that's the challenge of humanity. It's that you have the ability to make that mistake, you have the ability to not be there. And the challenge for you is to find your way back, to come home, to be there.

Stacy Henagan: 24:06

And I think in Christianity too, because we all have a will our own self will that determines, "Hey, do I want to do what's right or I want to do what's wrong, do I want to go to God or go away from him". But, I believe that the Holy Spirit's constantly pursuing every single one of us to come back home, but it's our self will that's going to say, "I want to listen" or, "No I don't".

Michael Liben: 24:27

I think you're right. I think in Judaism it's just a slightly, yeah, like everything else, is just a slightly different take. We have what we believe is the Gates of Ha-ra and the Gates Ha-tov. We have the will to do evil and the will to do good. And that's a battle. When the will to do good, combines itself with the will to live a Torah life, to live a Jewish life, to live according to the rules, then you're then the will to do good is strong enough to overpower the will to do bad. So, you need God to find God. And in that sense, maybe that's where you're talking about being chased. But, I think he's waiting. But he gives us the tools. You have to be smart enough to see it. You have to be smart enough to pick up the tools, and you gotta want to use them. But that is how we find our way back. It's a slightly different take. But I, there's a lot of similarity there.

Stacy Henagan: 25:23

Right, right.

Michael Liben: 25:24

Now, what helps you see through your pain to the other side? How do you get over your pain? Is there something you can do? Something you can teach us?

Stacy Henagan: 25:33

Yeah, well, for me, hands down, it would be knowing that heaven awaits me. I do believe in afterlife, I believe in heaven and hell, and just knowing that there is a place when all this evil stuff in this crazy world we live in, will be redeemed, that gives me so much hope to move forward. And I also just, you know, in Christianity, we believe Jesus suffered for every person so that we could have relationship with God. And so in that suffering, he conquered everything that we're ever going to suffer. And so that gives me this empowerment that I can conquer this too. I can get through this, I can get to the other side, there is hope for me. And really, I think the biggest thing that propels me on is this is not the end for me, this is not the end for you. It's not the end for anyone, what we're dealing with, there is good ahead. And I think you know, those two things, but also my time with God. When I hear his voice, that still small voice that I cannot pronounce the Hebrew word like you said, but that word, it can be...

Michael Liben: 26:37

It's three words. It's three words."Kol damamah dakah." It's "A Still Small Voice."

Stacy Henagan: 26:40

Say it again. It's beautiful. Okay. When I hear that, it can be very simple. It can just be I love you, or it can be you're doing a great job, or there's more or whatever he has to say, but it helps me know that I'm loved. And just knowing that I'm loved, and that I have a good father that won't forsake me, I mean, that propels me forward to know that, hey, I'm going to be okay, this is going to be okay.

Michael Liben: 27:06

Well, since you brought up the afterlife, basically, we believe that if you live a normally good life, you'll make the afterlife, don't worry about it. That's not your concern. Now, your concern here is the here and now. So another, I'll teach you another Hebrew phrase, we say "Schar mitzvah, mitzvah, a good deed is its own reward. So I don't need the thought of having to do the right thing or to do good deeds. They're worth it themselves. I'm here right now, helping you is a good thing to do. I don't need any other reason to do it, that it's the right thing to do. And so that also I think, gives a certain sense of comfort that I'm not worried about the afterlife. I don't concern myself with the afterlife all that much. But I'm much concerned, much more concerned with doing the right thing here. That is a different view, I think, than Christianity, but in the end, you get that same sort of confidence from it.

Stacy Henagan: 27:57

Yeah, I think yeah, it is a little bit different of a view. I think that, you know, I don't live with my head in the clouds that's you know, for sure. I'm definitely here present on this earth. But I think that eternity is planted in the heart. It's this knowing that this world is not all there is. And I think that's really important for me, and for really anyone. And so I think for me, as a believer, it would be I live on mission, I have a purpose. I, God has a plan for my life. And I'm going to get on about that plan, regardless of what happens to me. Now he helps me get along, get on with it. You know, it's not on my own strength, because how do you lose a child and just get on with life? You don't. I mean, we had a lot of grieving to do, we had a lot of wrestling to do. But in the end, by yielding your life to the Holy Spirit, he helped us keep moving forward and continue with the mission that he put us on this earth to live. And I think maybe that's how we parallel with with the Jewish faith.

Michael Liben: 28:54

I think so. But that's about as close as it gets. I can take that comfort, too. It's just not the reason I'm here. And that's a big difference. It's a big difference. I'm not here to attain the afterlife. I'm here because I'm here.

Stacy Henagan: 29:07

I don't think that I walked through this earth with the intention of I'm going to do good things to get to heaven. Absolutely not. Because I know that none of my good things will equal up to being good enough to get to heaven.

Michael Liben: 29:18

Which brings me to another Hebrew word you're gonna love. Hishtadlut - do the best you can. And then God will take care of from there. If he sees that you've done what you can do, he can't ask for more than that from you. You can only do what you can do.

Stacy Henagan: 29:31

That's right. That's good.

Michael Liben: 29:32

At that point I think we do touch. At that point, I think we do touch..

Stacy Henagan: 29:36

Yeah,for sure. And you know and for, for I don't know, how you what you believe with grace. But in the end, you do the best you can, but even if it's not the best always there's grace where God says, "You know what, I'm gonna pick up your slack". I think you can easily get in a transactional mode, if your goal every day was to live good so you can get to heaven. That is not the motive behind Christianity, it is to live to bring honor to God period. And heaven is the payoff, heaven is the reward. But that's not, because that's the whole foundation of Christianity. None of us are good enough. That's why Jesus had to come and die. And so we it's not about our own goodness, it's about his goodness, and that our reward is to get to heaven. Yes, it's amazing, but it's, hey, I have opportunity through Jesus to be in relationship with God. So I'm going to honor him with my life.

Michael Liben: 30:24

On that I'm going to have to agree with you. And on that, I'm also going to thank you for joining us on "Bereaved But Still Me". The name of your book again, please, this is your moment.

Stacy Henagan: 30:34

Yes, it is"Breathe Again". And you can of course find it on Amazon or wherever. But also my website is staceyhenagan.com and that's where you'll find the videos and the discussion guide and a link to the to the devotional, seven day devotional. But, I so appreciate you having me on and just the ability to kindly talk about different faiths and certainly I hope anyone who is listening, hears my heart, that I respect you and I just appreciate the opportunity to talk about what I believe and then also listen to what you do.

Michael Liben: 31:03

It's just a pure joy having you on this program, I hope you come back.

Stacy Henagan: 31:07

Well, I would love it.

Michael Liben: 31:08

That concludes this episode of "Bereaved But Still Me", the podcast formerly known as "Heart to Heart with Michael". Stacy, thank you again for joining us on the program. If our listeners have enjoyed this program, I'd like to invite everyone to become a patreon. For a monthly pledge you can help us continue to provide free programming to the bereaved community. Just visit www.patreon.com/hearttoheart. Until then, remember that moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 31:37

Thank you for joining us. We hope you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast, and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcast at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".