Dr. Ramani and I rigorously tackle the complexities that emerge when parenting with or alongside a narcissist, offering invaluable strategies for setting boundaries and cultivating a nurturing environment for both parents and children.
We discuss the often-overlooked impact narcissistic parenting has on the developmental stages of children, from their tender infancy to their more independent years. We confront the harsh truth that parenthood doesn't magically reform a narcissist and discuss the imperative role of a supportive, responsive parent in mitigating a narcissist's unpredictable influence. Delving into the intricacies of equitable parenting and its significance on familial harmony, this episode sheds light on fostering a balanced family dynamic, even amidst the challenges posed by a narcissistic partner or parent.
Sources:
https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cdep.12362
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1420870112
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797620965536
Read Dr. Ramani's new book It's Not You:
Canada
US
Dr. Ramani's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/doctorramani/
Please leave a rating for our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify! Email me at info@curiousneuron.com
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curious_neuron/
Facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/theemotionallyawareparent/
THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! Get some discounts using the links below
Thank you to our main supporters the Tanenbaum Open Science Institute at The Neuro and the McConnell Foundation.
Discounts for our community!
Dr. Ramani and I rigorously tackle the complexities that emerge when parenting with or alongside a narcissist, offering invaluable strategies for setting boundaries and cultivating a nurturing environment for both parents and children.
We discuss the often-overlooked impact narcissistic parenting has on the developmental stages of children, from their tender infancy to their more independent years. We confront the harsh truth that parenthood doesn't magically reform a narcissist and discuss the imperative role of a supportive, responsive parent in mitigating a narcissist's unpredictable influence. Delving into the intricacies of equitable parenting and its significance on familial harmony, this episode sheds light on fostering a balanced family dynamic, even amidst the challenges posed by a narcissistic partner or parent.
Sources:
https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cdep.12362
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1420870112
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797620965536
Read Dr. Ramani's new book It's Not You:
Canada
US
Dr. Ramani's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/doctorramani/
Please leave a rating for our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify! Email me at info@curiousneuron.com
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curious_neuron/
Facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/theemotionallyawareparent/
THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! Get some discounts using the links below
Thank you to our main supporters the Tanenbaum Open Science Institute at The Neuro and the McConnell Foundation.
Discounts for our community!
Healing is very possible even after a lifetime of being invalidated, and it's not simple and it's going to look different for everyone.
Speaker 2:Hello, dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron Podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. Today we have an extremely special guest, one that I've been wanting to speak to for a very long time. Before I do share who she is, I do want to say that we are covering a question that I've been receiving a lot more recently, and it's a question that I couldn't answer, which is why I wanted to make sure that I can bring somebody in. There's lots of research around it, but I just didn't feel that I had the expertise to talk about it. Even if I'm summarizing a study, I couldn't extend that with my knowledge and I wanted to make sure that I brought in the right person for you, and that is why I reached out to our guest, and I was really excited that she said yes and wanted to join the Curious Neuron Podcast. But, as always, before we begin, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute for supporting the Curious Neuron Podcast. What we do here is open science, and they support the fact that we are taking research and science and putting it out there to you, the parent, in order to support your emotional well-being and help you safeguard your child's emotional health as well. I also want to invite you to subscribe to the Curious Neuron Podcast. So, if you haven't done so yet, take a moment to subscribe and also to rate the podcast and review it, because every single rating and review that we receive, as well as the number of people subscribed, leads to us being able to create a new season. So it's really important that you do so and come say hello. If you've done so and left a rating, come say hi. My name is Cindy. You can send me an email at info at CuriousNeuroncom, and if you want to reach out through our website, you can go to CuriousNeuroncom and click on contact, and that will send an email directly to me and let me know that you left a rating, or just come say hello and let me know who you are. I love getting to know who the audience is because, as you know, I just sit here in my basement and record the episodes, usually at night, and I do think it's important for me, or it is important for me to know who I'm speaking to. So please send me an email and, lastly, if you're not doing so yet, you can follow us on Instagram at Curious underscore Neuron, and I post there almost every day and I share anything in research that is relevant to you and your emotional well-being, as well as your child. All right, I told you that I had somebody very special today. I don't want to waste any more time because I know we need to get to this podcast episode.
Speaker 2:Lots of parents were asking me questions around narcissism Parents who are in a relationship with somebody who's a narcissist, parents who had a narcissistic parent themselves and they need some help navigating that parent now who is now a grandparent to their children and not knowing how to set boundaries. And also tons of parents who were concerned about how living in a home with a narcissist will impact the development or impact their child, their emotional health and so on. And lastly, or what kind of environment kind of creates a narcissist. There were so many questions that I knew it was time for me to reach out to this person.
Speaker 2:She has been on the Jay Shetty podcast, she has been on the Mel Robbins podcast. She has been on so many well-known podcasts and these episodes get millions of views because lots of people want to understand the narcissistic person that they live with. She is a licensed clinical psychologist in Los Angeles, california professor Emerita of Psychology at California State University. She has a TEDx talk. She has a book called Should I Stay or Should I Go, and her new book that is coming out is called it's Not you, and both these books are to help you understand the narcissistic person and to help you heal from being part of a relationship, whether that is your partner, a parent, a child, a friend, a colleague. Her goal is truly to help support those who are in these types of relationships. So, without further ado, please enjoy my interview and my conversation with Dr Romani. I'll see you on the other side. Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Cures Neuron podcast. I'm your host, cindy Huffington, and today I'm joined by the amazing Dr Romani.
Speaker 1:Welcome, thank you so much, cindy, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I'm just so grateful that you're taking the time to chat with me today, because I know that the audience here at Cures Neuron has a lot of questions when it comes to being with a narcissistic partner and what the potential impacts would be on their children. So I really want to focus our conversation around that. But I do think it's important that we first kind of define what we mean by that, because I do think that we're using this term very often and very easily labeling people as narcissists. So what does it mean when we say someone who's a narcissist?
Speaker 1:So what I'm going to do is I'm going to start by saying what it's not, because I think that that almost be a little easier, and then jump into what it is. I think a lot of people are using the word narcissist to describe somebody who might be incredibly selfish, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:A person who I mean you were talking about parenting, cindy, right? So this might be the parent who opts to play golf for five hours on a Saturday when the other parent has been run ragged all week. That's not enough for me. I know it's not nice and I know it doesn't feel good may not be a narcissist, a narcissistic person. A person might have a partner who cheats, who is unfaithful. That's a terrible thing. They may not necessarily be narcissistic, right? So I think what's happening is something hurtful happens in the relationship and it feels really selfish and egocentric and people are quick to pull the word out.
Speaker 1:But what a narcissistic person is is a person who is in possession of this kind of narcissistic personality. And a narcissistic personality is actually quite a complex, multifaceted thing and it's comprised of shallow, inconsistent, non-genuine empathy. It is entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, selfishness, egocentricity, egotism, validation and admiration seeking and almost excessive need for that. They often envy and covet what other people have, or they think other people envy them. They can be quite superficial, they can be very vain, they're status seeking. So that stuff together really gets at narcissism and it's not any one of those things, it's all of those things kind of working together.
Speaker 1:Those traits in a person manifest as behavioral patterns in the relationship that show up consistently and that stuff like manipulation, gaslighting in essence denying the reality or the perceptions of another person so the gaslighter can control them. There is taking advantage of people, there's, again, control and domination, there's dismissiveness, there's minimization, there is even betrayal. All again, those things all tend to hang together and all of this is and in this part is almost less relevant to the other parent in a way. But people wonder what's the why Like? Why is a person like this?
Speaker 1:Well, one would argue that internally, their internal psychological structure is one that's deeply insecure. They have a very fragile ego, and so all of these icky traits have developed as almost a suit of armor against the world. And because people who are narcissistic lack self-awareness, they lack self-reflective capacity, they're not able to stop, and also they lack empathy. They're not able to stop and say what I just did to that person was not cool and quickly attempt to make amends. They'll often shift the blame onto the other person for their bad behavior. That is what a narcissistic person is.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that and anybody who's listening who feels like they want to learn a little bit more. I think your first book was amazing and helping us really break down everything that you just said and give us a lot more information to see where that person might fit. So should I stay or should I go, is a book that I do recommend. I will put the links to your books in the show notes and your new one we will talk about as well. Just to, kind of, we're going to get into the whole parenting thing, but I just want to continue painting that picture of what the narcissistic person is and what it's creating in terms of an impact. Right, because you've described everything.
Speaker 2:But now also, having had some experience, I know that from the outside everybody says things like but they're so nice, right, like they're so kind and they're so giving and caring, and then they don't see what's happening on the inside and what I've noticed from reading or watching some of the podcasts you're on in the comments. A lot of people feel seen, finally feel that you've acknowledged what they've been in and they hadn't realized what they were in. They just saw the kind of the black and white aspect of it, of the person is nice, the person is mean, the person is giving, the person is not empathetic. So I guess my next question is like somebody who's in this sort of situation and now they become a parent, right, how do we sort of navigate this? Now you have a child, there are good moments, there are bad moments, maybe more bad moments, but I just pictured that parent who just had their first child. Where do we begin when we are in this situation with a narcissist?
Speaker 1:So I want to go back to a point you made because I think it's an important point to highlight, which is the hot and cold of these relationships. If the person I just described, who lacks empathy, entitled, arrogant if it was only that we would have spied it probably in the beginning, we may not have gotten into this relationship. The challenge of the narcissistic personality is the capacity for their mask wearing, their mask removing and their shape shifting is that they can be quite charming, charismatic, present as confident, can even be quite successful, and that will show in public settings and places where they want validation. So it could very well be you'll be at a big family dinner or a big event. They'll pick up the check, everyone will say, oh, you're so lucky, you're the golden couple. And the person in the relationship is thinking as soon as the car door closes, they start criticizing me, they're angry at me, why did you say this? Why did you do that? And so that people in narcissistic relationships have this almost this, this split world where there's the public mask and there's a private mask, and there's also Good days and bad days in these relationships. So people will say I was on the verge of saying I am done and then we had a wonderful weekend. I thought, oh, maybe I'm misreading it, so it confuses the person in it. So now let's go back to your next question, which is what happens when someone becomes a parent and the evolution of the narcissistic person is apparent.
Speaker 1:Now, while it's not always the same way, I'll be simplifying it too much if I said it was. It's difficult, because in some ways I'm gonna make I'm gonna make the argument here that when a person has an infant, it's a bit of love bombing. Infants are great, they're cute, they're portable, they show great on social media. You can carry them around in carriers and listen. If people actually have money, they don't need enough to deal with the sleep disruption and the crying. Right, we mere mortals have to deal with that. But a lot of people are even able to sort of, you know, cordon themselves off from that.
Speaker 1:Hmm, but in short order, that that sort of very portable accessory called an infant or a baby Starts becoming a child with its own will. And there's a point and I hate to use this word, I'm a parent, so I say this from what I know is we love our kids is Unconditionally, but they can be inconvenient. Right? We're trying to meet a deadline and the child is running around. We want to sleep in. They wake us up. We want to do what we want one day, but we really have to honor the responsibility we have to the child. When the child becomes a demand, when it becomes an inconvenience, and, frankly, what? Frankly, when that child is no longer really a consistent source of supply for the parent, not an accessory that they can pose with, that narcissistic parent might start to bristle. In addition, the the other issues and I'll talk about this as the child gets older. But when a child comes on to the scene, I think we're the reason a lot of marriages, long-term committed relationships with narcissistic folks really start to crumble is. We talk all the way.
Speaker 1:There's so much research on how important Equitability is in a relationship. Equity is sharing of chores or perception of equity. I may not look at someone's marriage and say, oh, that seems equitable. But if they feel it's equitable, they will have better marital outcomes, right, yeah, and so the the equitability Equation gets tested when people have children. A couple might have been doing fine enough.
Speaker 1:You know the narcissistic person. It couldn't have been easy and a lot of people believe that once you have a baby, the narcissistic person will be so besotted with the baby that everything's gonna change. Not the case, but what happens is is that equitability equation gets completely thrown asunder because babies are demanding. There's a constant, constant, constant need and while they might sort of, they might change a diaper while you have company to look good, they may be thrilled to have baby put on their lap for a for a minute when they come home from work. They don't want to be Ultra in Inconvenience of the child is sick or anything like that. So I do think that the introduction of a child or children into a narcissistic relationship is Often one of the first massive tests of that relationship. And if there were, if there were only small hairline Fractures before these turn into fault lines when children come into the relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's in any relationship, but this makes it much. Oh, this is a whole different.
Speaker 1:Yes, Because if you look at Daniel Gilbert's research I think that's his name, yeah, daniel Gilbert, who wrote assembling on happiness. He's a professor at Harvard. He had made that point. He's in his book I think it was someone else's data but he shows that marital satisfaction hits its bottom when people have children who are five years old. Right, that's the bottom. It makes sense, because when you think of what, what that has been at a five years old, there's a different kind of demand to child is.
Speaker 1:But you're kind of worn out from that infancy and toddler, right, and so you can imagine that, plus, already, the toxic dynamics of a narcissistic relationship. This is when it all gets tested. And I think there's a fantasy people have in narcissistic marriages of oh, we're gonna do this together, we're in this together, and you know, as a therapist who's even watched people married to narcissistic people have children. And then you I mean you sort of know what's coming. It's not my job to. I'm not, I'm not a soothsayer Right to say it's gonna be a disaster. I would never do that. But when it starts showing up, the first thing I'll often hear is they're not doing their share and it's let them know to radically accept they're never gonna do their share right, yeah, that's so.
Speaker 2:Now what right? Knowing that that's what, what the future looks like, and you know that they're not really going to participate, it makes it really difficult because, like you said, parenting is already hard enough and now moving away from that infancy stage but going into taller, you know the taller years and that pre those preschool years, that before five, is the hardest part because in my opinion that's when that emotion regulation skill comes in, when you have to co-regulate with the child. And From what I understand from your work is that that narcissist might not show that empathy that the child needs, might not have that warmth and sensitivity that that child needs. So I'm speaking on behalf of the parents that wrote to me. If one parent is trying to show that warmth and sensitivity towards the child's emotions and trying to respond to them in a certain way, versus the other parent, the narcissist isn't. Is this going to create? Or what is this going to create in the child? How can this impact them?
Speaker 1:one thing I want to reassure parents and there's there's literature supporting this if you have one good, consistent, available, responsive, securely attached parent, you're good to go. You really really are. I think a lot of people live in fear that they need this to perfect parents. You don't. What happens is we make this miss, we make this mistake of. People will generalize look they, that person had a narcissistic partner and all hell broke loose. But it really begs the question how much chaos was in the household? How much is that distracting the, the, if you will, non-narcissistic parent? You know it's hard. It's hard if a person is in them sort of unsatisfying, unhappy or even sort of emotionally abusive space of a narcissistic Relationship. It can be really hard to bring your triple-a game to your kids. It really can be, because you're distracted by your own unhappiness. It can be done. I see it done, done every day. Part of it is the radical acceptance of you knowing what you're dealing with. So you don't try to fix it or blame yourself. But I really do want to reassure people. If you're able to show up for your children in that way, you will raise a securely attached child. But I'm gonna put a sort of a semicolon. But now here's the thing Having a narcissistic parent, whether that parent is a daily presence in that child's life because the relationship Sustains, or a partial presence because of a shared custody, it does Create an anxiety in that child because, above all else, narcissistic parents are inconsistent.
Speaker 1:They are variably empathic and they are variably interested, and All of that means that the child may be volleying to get that parent's interest. What do I need to do to win this parent over? Do I need to be like them? Do I need to do things they want me to do? Do I need to be quiet? Do I know so the child is is, instead of being able to sort of grow fully into their identity Unconditionally, they're trying to figure out the parent, which is never be a child's role.
Speaker 1:But the narcissistic parent also often tends to Shame or devalue the child's needs or wants. So the child slowly learns a vocabulary with that parent of don't make a need known, because if you do you're gonna be shut down or you know you're gonna get in trouble. So while they and what can even happen is you create the schism of the child saying well, with this parent I can be myself, with this parent I can't. That's a really heavy burden for a child to internalize.
Speaker 1:So I would say the vast majority of children who have a narcissistic parent, no matter how good the other parent is, the end product of that is going to be some anxiety and some not good enoughness. Right, maybe I'm not good enough. The sense of Relationships are transactional and conditional and you've got to show up with the goods to be liked or loved. And, yes, I can't. There's no way I can sugarcoat that, that that one parent can completely obscure that because that other parent is an influence. Unless at a very, very young age, maybe prior to one or two, the narcissistic parent disappears, never to be seen again. Right, then, maybe there's a chance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So from what I'm understanding, there's the attachment part, that, and you know, you having that one parent in the home, we don't have to worry about that, but there's the development of their own behaviors and understanding of how to behave or their characteristics, right, that will be shaped by how that parent, that narcissistic parent, deals with them.
Speaker 1:I would say, beyond just their behaviors or something. Yeah, got it Okay.
Speaker 2:So you know, when I was telling parents that we were gonna have this conversation, there was that there was a switch between parents worrying about how this will impact their child, but then, on the other hand, there were parents worrying about how they might be treating their child and if this is contributing to them becoming a narcissist. So I had covered some research that talked about Overvaluation, over protection and praise and and parents. The praise word triggers a lot of parents because it's like Should I praise my child? Should I not? But it wasn't about just praising. It was that overvaluation. Not just saying like you did a good job, it's saying you are the best at this and nobody else is better than you. From what I remember from that study. But what are your thoughts around that? Like, what should parents be aware of when they're dealing with their child and and praising them? I guess in a sense.
Speaker 1:So when we look at Eddie Brumelman's work out of Amsterdam, we look at Sophie DeVries' work, their research is really showing that. Again, it's exactly as you said. This issue of overvaluation of you are more special than the rest is the problem. It's praise without punch, as I put it Like. So telling a kid you're amazing, are they? You know they're doing their thing, like you might say that's cool, or show me about, or tell me about that.
Speaker 1:I think that we are what, listen, people, cheerleading a child and praising a child is that there's never going to be a bad result to that, unless, unless there's really no sense of the child, of connecting it right. So if the child is makes an effort at something, even if the effort doesn't succeed in what they want, and the parent does something like says you really worked so hard on that, I get it. It didn't turn out the way you wanted, but my gosh, I saw how hard you work. That's the ultimate form of praise, because even as adults we want that, the recognition of the effort put in, even if it didn't give the result we wanted. So I think it's. It's the when it comes to sort of the praise, validation, adulation part of parenting. It's got to have substance to it, right, it's got to. So the child can then see that A I'm a valuable person, no more valuable than anyone else. There are behaviors I engage in that are that are good like that are good, they're good for my world, they're fostering social ties and all of that. But it also means a heavier list lift for the parent. The parent has to be engaged and focused on the child in a way, so it's not just oh, you're so amazing, you're so great, but which is the parent is actually aware what the child did, which meant they are paying attention to the child, and we've got a world full of distracted parents at this, at this stage in time, more than we've ever had, I think, in history. And so I think that when we think about that form of social and emotional development, it's not that you're more special than anyone else, and I also think it's that if we only value the child for superficial qualities it could be appearance, it could be athletic ability, it could be academic ability, it could be did they do well on the spelling test, whatever that is when we focus only on that, it's a slippery slope. It's really like gosh. You helped your sister, that was wonderful you did that. You're so patient with her. Thank you, that was so sweet.
Speaker 1:That the child is learning that their empathic value, that they're, how they show up as a person, is being noticed above and beyond whether they got an A on a spelling test or whether they read the whole book or whatever. It's just they as a person. That's the other part of praise we often miss. Even our school systems miss it. Schools are so focused on outcomes that they miss truth, that there's a kid like and again. Well, especially children who are neurodivergent or different kinds of learners, those kids really get lost in this shuffle because they're not always getting the A's and the good marks, but they're often super sweet, interesting, just have great energy kids and to say, my goodness, how did you clean this room up so fast? Or how you are, you are so helpful to everyone, you helped everyone get their coats today. How did you find the time for that? That we really say that you have a gift, but we connect it to the behavior, and so I think that.
Speaker 1:But going back to Bromelman's research, devries research is that it can't be. You're just the most special, and it's usually an extension of the parents narcissism when that happens, but not always. I think that so many people are trying to correct what was done to them as kids. I think that there's people who feel like my parents didn't even notice me, they didn't even say I was great. So I think that overcorrection on that is I'm going to always tell my kid they're great, and to which we want to say slow down, let's put on the brakes. What everyone needs to do is pay such present attention to their children, but they can actually give us, get a 360 degree view on their child so they can actually comment about them in a meaningful way. So the child connects not just their accomplishments but the who they are to this is being seen You're great, this is wonderful. But the kids like oh, these are nice things to do, my empathy is good. All of that so in its time. All of that takes time.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I think you've really painted a nice picture of what we mean by praise and how to do that, because I do think that parents see that word and they're like, is it bad, is it good? But it's not about that, it's about the way that you've described it. So, thank you, I want to. You touched on something that I want to touch upon and you spoke about that early environment and how sometimes, or that narcissistic parent might have that low confidence and might have that struggle. So let's go to the other end of that, not the praise, but the opposite of that, where because some of the parents questioned that environment and what builds or shapes a narcissist, and so we've spoken about the praise part and how to go about that. But what about the other side, where you have a parent who might not be acknowledging the child very much, or that child feels like they have to be bigger than life in order to get the attention of the parent. Is that something that leads to a child being a narcissist, becoming one? The?
Speaker 1:whole struggle. Everybody wants it. I'm going to go to the second part of your question from before Parents being afraid of raising narcissistic children, right. And so here's what's tricky. I will lay out the ideological, the origin pathways for you of where narcissistic people come from. But what we always have to remember is that the vast majority of children who experience the conditions I'm about to share with you do not become narcissistic, right.
Speaker 1:So what I think people are looking for is that you know we call it sort of equifinality that this is the path and if you do this you're going to have a narcissistic kid, or if you do this you're going to have a great kid. And I think that that's what's so frustrating about parenting and so much of our lives. If we follow the steps, if we do the thing, if we have the discipline, we'll have this. We can pretty much expect a certain outcome. Parenting is not like that. It really isn't. We can get into the neighborhood, we can raise a solid person, but beyond that there's a lot of other influences operating. So again in the bromelmann's and the degrees research especially the bromelmann's research you know what they're suggesting is that if you tell the child they are more special than any other child and that's repeated messaging that could predict. I mean, what they did in their research was interesting. They were sort of looking at whatever the equivalent of like sort of childhood entitlement would be at a pretty young age. We don't use the word narcissism or really any absolute personality terminology till someone's over 25. The prefrontal cortex is developing so much until that point that I really do think adolescents last till 25. And so this is a you know. So it's tricky to call personality out in a child, but I've seen entitled 12 year olds. I know it's and it's usually modeling.
Speaker 1:But let's just go backwards because there's really on these two major pathways to narcissism. Again, in the most vast majority of kids who experience these don't become narcissistic. Pathway one is the adversity pathway, and these are children who are exposed to adversity, to invalidation, to emotional abuse. There may be violence in the environment, there may be inconsistency, chaos, fear, trauma. That's the adversity pathway. Okay, so it almost creates what we'd consider then narcissism as a post traumatic response. So those are kids who are you know that they may have. They never their needs were never recognized, that there is a fear and threat in the world and that really comes out in all those traits we've talked about. That usually shows up as a more vulnerable or even, in some cases, malignant form of narcissism. Depends on the kid, depends on their track.
Speaker 1:The other group are these over indulged, spoiled kid, narcissistic. You know that pathway the kids who are told you're the best, you're better than anyone. There's very few limits, there's little attempt for this. This child is not made to ever regulate their feelings. They kind of get to do whatever they want. There is a lot of material over indulgence, and there might even be, though, and most likely there's inconsistent emotional availability of the parents. So there's lots of goodies and there's lots of. Isn't my kid the best and you're the best?
Speaker 1:But then there's really not that sort of consistent, safe place to land when it comes to great depth in the parenting right. That could be a path to narcissism, having a narcissistic parent and modeling the narcissistic parent. This can be particularly lethal if there's two, or if there's one narcissistic parent and another parent that's just sort of quite absent. And these are kids that are watching the parent behave rudely to the sports coach or the server in a restaurant, or driving aggressively, or these people are also dumb. Can you even believe we have to live with that. That kind of thing is a dismissiveness that the child may internalize. But remember, in all of these pathways the probability is not that that's the path the child will take.
Speaker 1:And then we have to account for something called temperament, and temperament is the biological part of personality.
Speaker 1:It is inborn, it is innate.
Speaker 1:It is why some of us have traits and qualities that are housed in an aunt or a grandparent we never met and that temperament, as parents listening to this will know, especially if you have multiple kids, kids are born with different personalities and there are some babies who have more challenging temperaments.
Speaker 1:They're more difficult to soothe and as they come into toddlerhood and young childhood they're more demanding of attention, they're more behaviorally agitated, they're less regulated. These children with more difficult temperaments, if you also then put them in an invalidating environment, that's a real setup for the development of an antagonistic personality style like narcissism. Which is why if you have a kid who is a sweetie, like just easy, easy temperament, and you put them in that invalidating environment, you might still see a remarkable amount of resilience. Where they're at worst, they're struggling with a fair amount of anxiety and sort of self-esteem stuff in adulthood, maybe some complex trauma, stuff around the edges, but nothing that's debilitating, whereas in folks with that temperament and they're in that invalidating environment it really really can go off and you'll see a severe narcissism. So you can see there's multiple things happen and then throw in there stuff like bullying and all the other stuff environmentally that could happen. That can also add to the mix.
Speaker 2:But I love that you started this by talking about it's not like a direct path, it's not like that.
Speaker 2:And I think, for parents I think we often do that where, especially today with everything that's available online, we wanna know, like, how do I get to that, what's the recipe to that right? And we can't do that in parenting the child. Every child is so different in the way we even myself, I have three kids and I parent each child very differently according to what their own needs are. So we have to keep that in mind and I think parents do often want that recipe, right?
Speaker 2:You've touched upon, or you've mentioned, the abuse, sometimes the emotional abuse that might come with somebody who is a narcissist. Now I had one specific question this person that reached out and had a really elaborate message about her worries around her child and that the father was emotionally abusing the child as well as her, and the child was very young. She didn't know how to navigate that. She wanted to stay in the relationship because in the good days there's hope and you talk a lot about that in your first book as well, like the hope part but she just felt it's just words and she wasn't ready to lead that relationship and she didn't know what to do. She didn't know.
Speaker 2:You often say as well not to label, not to mention that the person tell them that they're a narcissist. But how do you navigate these sort of situations where you know that what the person or that parent is doing with their child can impact their emotional development or their wellbeing and you feel like there's nothing you could do? You can't tell the person that the narcissist's apparent to stop doing that. You can't tell them that they're damaging I'm saying damaging because these are the words she used. But how do you navigate this sort of situation?
Speaker 1:So you bring up sort of the most challenging variant on it and this person saying she's not ready to leave is very, very common. I think that a lot of people say, oh, if they're narcissistic, don't I just have to leave? That's not always an option. There's issues of money and there's issues of culture, there's issues of safety, but I'll tell you this, there's also the issues of the family court and the number of people who have to make the agonizing, almost biblical decision of sitting there and saying do I feel comfortable with my child spending a half or a third of their time with a very emotionally abusive parent without me at least providing a guardrail or at least if I'm in the house, I can redirect?
Speaker 1:This is something people agonize about, because the family court doesn't give a damn about whether or not a parent is emotionally abusive or narcissistic. They really, really don't. The child is almost an asset that they're dividing up, just like cars and houses and bank accounts, and so in that kind of situation number one, I tell people there's a lot of grief because it's almost like knowingly, your child, you know, is now in an environment that's harmful. It's almost like living in a place where you know there's mold in the house or something like we're living in a place that there's something in this house that's going to harm this child.
Speaker 1:And the fact is I'm not even gonna sugarcoat that and say no, no, no, it's gonna be fine, this will harm them. I am not going to ever lie to people. Now we go back to that idea of there's a radical acceptance here. So in this person who wrote your question there, she may very well have fully accepted like this is the relationship, this is not gonna change. I see that Okay, good, because I think that this, holding onto any hope that today's gonna be different or it's gonna change, no, because then she can have realistic expectations of what to do with the child. So it then really becomes number one if it's accessible to them.
Speaker 1:This parent needs to be in therapy Because ideally, a therapist who understands both parenting and narcissistic relationships which is a heavy, heavy lift because there's not a lot of them. So, but ideally you've got that, and what you don't want is a parenting expert who doesn't understand narcissism and might shame somebody for saying, well, well, you know what? Like you can't, no, no, no, no, no. You need someone who can be understand that what's happening is toxic and validate that. But being in therapy for mom and honestly, even potentially being in therapy for child. Is that the advantage of this person's staying in the relationship? That sometimes one parent consent would be sufficient to get the child into therapy. Sometimes when people split up, you need both parents consent.
Speaker 1:Many times a narcissistic parent won't give. That Depends on the state, depends on the situation, but I do think having some form of mental health guardrails is it becomes crucial. The other is that you I tell many people I said, listen, if you're in a narcissistic relationship there's not a lot of there. This is a pretty hollow, carved out space you don't want to leave. I totally understand that. So then put your investment into your child, which is understanding that you can bring your full empathy game there. Be present with that child. Don't smother them, don't, you know? Don't. Don't parentify them and don't spousify them. Don't turn to them as your person. Be their parent. But you can really understand that it's very likely that that other parent won't be available. It's giving that child sort of a. You don't want to gaslight your child, but you also don't want to tell your child their parent is narcissistic. So if the child so for example, a mistake I've seen people make with narcissistic parents is they will feel motivated to push the child to spend some time with the narcissistic parent because they think well, then at least they can say I am trying to foster this. If the narcissistic parent doesn't really want to spend time with them, don't push it. Let the child evolve into it.
Speaker 1:If you hear a conversation where the narcissistic parent is saying something to that child which you are concerned about, you don't take the child and say you're very narcissistic parent, said this to you and say you touched base with the child. How are you feeling? I heard that Sometimes parents aren't on the same page. I don't fully agree with what you're saying. I just want to let you know that this option is available to you, or there's another way you can do this, or I fully back you in this interest, or whatever it may be. Let that child know that there is a safe, soft place to land.
Speaker 1:I do have to say that if you have a narcissistic co-parent or partner, keep an eye on your kid, watch how it's affecting them. Try to again. The earlier you can get in there before things really take hold, the more important. Don't live in some fantasy world You're like well, I'm going to foster them having their time alone together, Maybe it'll work out. No, it won't. If the child wants to spend time with that parent and the other parent is amenable, great, go for it. Let them do that. But don't try to force those things and have realistic expectations. This is very likely going to make a child really, really anxious. And you've got to have your mental health in check. That's the hardest part. You're going through an emotionally abusive relationship. You have to be present with the child for whom you are the strong parent for, and you internally are falling apart because you're chronically being manipulated and gaslight. I'm telling you it's a moderately impossible situation. A reality check on that is not to depress people in saying that, but if it feels hard, it's because it is.
Speaker 2:You talked about sitting with that child and that makes me think of when you're having this conversation after a certain event happened. You're validating the child's emotions, knowing that that narcissistic parent won't do that. It feels like you're being there and you're doing the repair for that parent because you know they won't do that. They won't sit there and say and reflect on what they did and why they did something. I think that's really helpful for some parents because it's like you said multiple times now it's not as easy as I'm going to leave this relationship. I think we have to. Even people from the outside of a relationship who has a narcissist we see that as like well, they're not being kind to you, they're not empathetic, they're treating your child a certain way. Just leave. But it's not that easy.
Speaker 2:We have to acknowledge that we're nearing the end of our conversation and I just want to end this picture of that child that was born in this relationship.
Speaker 2:The parent is still around. They're teenagers now and then they become young adults and they move out and they have to kind of some of them want to try to maintain this relationship with their parent. The reason why I'm bringing this up to close our conversation is because a lot of parents reached out to me and said that their own relationship with their parent wasn't a good one, and now their parents themselves and this is feeling heavy now as a parent because you realize that you're dealing with so much from your own past because of that narcissistic parent they're going to therapy now as parents, but it's just very heavy. How do we navigate now if we're a parent and our own parent is a narcissist and we want to keep them in their lives, or perhaps we don't? Maybe that's the same question as in a relationship Should I stay or should I go? I'm not sure. But how do we navigate that now with our own children and that narcissistic grandparent around?
Speaker 1:I think one thing that is, if you had a narcissistic parent or parents and you're parenting now, the one thing to always remember is don't try to overcorrect, because that's where mistakes get made. I'm going to lavish this child with all the attention in the world. I'm going to make every opportunity available to them. The child then becomes almost like an experiment or a laboratory, versus you responding to the child as a child instead of trying to correct what was done to you.
Speaker 1:It's like this hyper parenting, if you will. I think that's a big one. I think the second is that many people will say that it's not always the same. In some cases, a narcissistic grandparent might have a very different relationship with your child than you, but odds are the same traits are going to show up. There's a stability to this. The way they might be dismissive or the way they might, however, they treated you as a child, especially as the child gets older, again, less of an accessory, you're going to start seeing a little bit more of that.
Speaker 1:That, for many parents, is an incredibly defining, hurtful moment. In fact, that's the point at which some people do go no contact with their own parents. They're like I couldn't have fought that fight for me as a child, but I am going to fight it for my own parent. But I think that if you have a narcissistic parent, it is again. This is where therapy becomes important. It's a place to check in with yourself, ideally before you even have your child and wonder what is it you might be trying to sort of work out through your child. Your child is not a therapy device. Your child is your child who has their own life, their own identity, their own personality. To let that blossom without it being your own personal working through.
Speaker 1:Any of us who had narcissistic parents have to be very, very mindful of that. But also it's to remember this is that we hold memory in our body when we have our children and we watch our children go through their developmental stages all the way up through adolescence. We hold some of that bodily memory for what those phases were like for us. There can be a lot of grief. There can be a lot of grief that we're taken back to our five-year-old selves, our seven-year-old selves, our 12-year-old selves, and I think a lot of parents aren't prepared for the wave that will come over them, their pain, their sadness, their experiences then, and it can feel destabilizing.
Speaker 1:To which I'd say to parents be prepared for it. Your child in a way becomes a mirror not just of the moment but of all the past moments too, and it's to not be destabilized by that but to recognize that listen, you got to the other side. Human beings are remarkably resilient creatures and you'll walk your child through it. But your child again is not a place of working through, but to be aware that will affect you. And then, in terms of relationships with grandparents, that's all over the map. Some people will say this parent was so horrifically, abusively, toxic to me. I don't want my kids near them and that's one decision. Some people very much want their child to have grandparents, but they will put ground rules around that.
Speaker 1:They'll say we're going to say we're not going to spend too much time with them, or I'm going to get them out of there before the conversation turns here, or whatever it may be. You don't also want to. Your child may end up crafting a very different relationship with your parent than you have, and you have to hold space for that possibility. And so I think that there's a mental flexibility that we have to cultivate. That can feel really hard after we've been through the harms of a narcissistic relationship, but it's quite possible.
Speaker 2:It's. You know, having listened to everything you just said, there's a lot of responsibility on the person who's with a narcissist, you know, like taking care of yourselves, your mental health, making sure your child is okay, then growing up and then going through the therapy. It's a lot and it's you know. I just want to acknowledge that because I know that there are people listening that are feeling that it's like it's heavy, and I just want to say that out loud. You know, I would love to just kind of dig into your new book and to understand what led to that. That the new one now it's not you. How did you decide it was time to write this one as a follow up to your first one?
Speaker 1:So you know it's funny almost all of the books about narcissism are about the narcissistic people and almost none of them are about what this personality style does to other people. It's almost like there is a reluctance to reflect on that right, and I think this is ridiculous. These are, as I say, this is a therapist. There are people being harmed by these relationships. So I think in some ways we were like la la la, I don't want to hear this and don't say that, yeah, no, no, we need to talk about this, and I recognize that at this point. There's so much content out there. There's so many good books out there about it. We know what the narcissists are about.
Speaker 1:What people don't quite understand is what am I supposed to do? When I wrote, should I Stay or Should I Go, I was really. That was almost more tactical. I'm in an intimate relationship with someone. What do I do? I'm not sure, and you know what are the dynamics. But it's not just intimate relationships. It's parents, it's siblings, it's adult children, it's colleagues, and so this isn't just happening, that one relationship. So I think that is probably primarily the relationship that causes issues for people.
Speaker 1:But I want to let people know that healing is very possible, even after a lifetime, of being invalidated, and it's not simple and it's going to look different for everyone, but it's very, very possible. And I think that because of sort of simple tiktok-y advice out there is like you're with the narcissist, get out, and that is just not. I mean, if it's your parent, a person might say I am their only child, I have to take care of them. Or in my culture we don't do that, or I don't feel safe leaving this person. Or you know, this is my child, like what am I supposed to do? So that they're trying to make it this sort of black and white, simple process to me cheapened, a process that's very personal and very different.
Speaker 1:And to let people know, some of you, you might get past this in a few months. Some of you, it might take years, you might carry some of these wounds forever. But inside of all of us is this sort of authentic, true self that has often been buried by the narrative that the narcissistic person had for us, that we had to be what they wanted us to be, whether it was in a marriage or a committed relationship or even from childhood and to give ourselves permission to actually start hunting out who that real person is and learning to be discerning, but also understanding that this affects us, like I think it's the reality check, just about that question you asked me a few minutes ago from the mom who was not leaving. There's not always easy answers, and so that's why I want to. This was actually a book about narcissism for the survivors of these relationships, rather than about narcissism.
Speaker 2:Right and the person with the narcissist knows what's going on. They just want to know how to help themselves and I'm glad that you're doing that. I'm assuming that's kind of your why behind your books you seem to be really trying to support that person who's trying to deal with them. Even if we put more books about narcissism, it's not like the narcissistic person will pick it up then just end themselves.
Speaker 1:No, and in fact I think it's getting worse, because I think we're living in a time as we get to be more tech oriented. Things are more quick, things are more frictionless, things are more competitive, more money and fewer people's hands. This is the narcissist's ground game, and so we've created a world that's almost purpose built for their personality style, which means that the abuse of these relationships is only going to get worse.
Speaker 2:Right, can we just talk about that one second, because I think you did mention this in an interview somewhere, that you worried about the future of this and worrying that it is already bad and it's going to get worse with time. Again, as a parent now, just very quickly, if we have a teenager and there's social media out there and the child is on this, is that something we should be looking out for and being aware of in terms of how that could impact our child.
Speaker 1:I think it's too simplistic to say that social media would cause narcissism. I think it's how the child interacts with it. I think the temperament of the child, the other supports around the child, the other things that the child is engaged by in their life. We've got to remember that now teenagers were born into a world of this and now it's the first time we really have true digital natives right that they have been born in this. This is a tool that didn't come up when they're five or 10 or 15. From the day they were born, their lives have been heavily documented on Instagram and all of it. There is actually a criticality. There's a way that adolescents and young adults are able to consume social media that actually has much more circumspection and critical thought than a lot of adults. They're able to pull back the curtain and see the wizard and they're very aware of what the game is. It is a form of entertainment.
Speaker 1:Are there vulnerable youths out there who are thinking I don't measure up Absolutely. In fact, a lot of the conversations, the Senate briefings, all of that have been about that vulnerable group of kids. It doesn't cause it, but I will tell you what it's done is. It's created a world where we've incentivized behaviors that are very validation and admiration seeking, where we've devalued deep, close connection with other people, where we have trivialized the importance of true human connection, being in the same place.
Speaker 1:I think that's some of the risk to me, and I think what we've done is we've shown kids that there's a fast track to success. You could be an influencer and you can make a million dollars by the time you're 17, kind of thing. I think it's created an unrealistic world. It's certainly skewed body image. All those things are not good things. Again, back to that idea of temperament makes your person more vulnerable to developing a narcissistic personality. Temperament and other factors vulnerability factors can also make social media vulnerable space. But this is we're living in a research project at this point how this is all going to unfold, but I don't think it looks good. I think that this personality style is a fast track to success in our current economy and so because of that we are, people may view these people as more desirable partners because they're more successful. And I'm trying to say just look before you leave, because, yeah, they may be successful on paper, but you got to look for the other stuff too.
Speaker 2:Thank you for all the work that you do and for sharing this with us. I know you're helping so many people and I appreciate everything you do, thank you. Thank you so much, cindy. Thank you.