Reflective Parenting by Curious Neuron

Empowering Dads to Express and Manage Emotions

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 6 • Episode 10

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As a mom of three with a neuroscience background, I've come to understand that the emotional health of fathers is a critical but often overlooked topic. That's why I invited Dr. Matt Englar-Carlson, an expert in counseling and male psychology, onto the  podcast. Our conversation offers an essential guide for anyone invested in the development of healthy boyhood and supportive environments for men as they embrace parenting, with insights into breaking cycles of anger and fostering emotional regulation.

In our final thoughts, Dr. Englar-Carlson and I reflect on the significance of building healthy relationships for life success. We explore how being a positive force in the lives of children, partners, and friends can be the cornerstone of well-being. For fathers and all listeners seeking to enhance their mental health and emotional expression, this episode is an invitation to explore new pathways and embrace the journey toward more fulfilling personal connections.

MENTAL App:
https://www.getmental.com/

Sources:
Accentuating positive masculinity: A new foundation for the psychology of boys, men, and masculinity.

The American psychological Association's practice guidelines for men and boys: Are they hurting rather than helping male mental wellness?

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Speaker 1:

That's the demise of men, right? Is that what, in a way, keeps us kind of stronger, or at least has us appear to be stronger, actually, as Popwood kills us?

Speaker 2:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Cures Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Hovington and I am your host. If you were looking for a space to help you with your well-being and emotional health, then you are at the right place. I have a PhD in neuroscience and I'm a mom of three. I am the founder of Cures Neuron and the co-founder of WonderGrade. So, as a mom, an entrepreneur and a neuroscientist, I try to share the research and the information that can help you as a parent.

Speaker 2:

In today's episode, we're focusing on dads and their mental health and their emotional health as well. We're going to talk with a researcher that I'll introduce in a second. There's a few questions that I wanted to ask that are questions that come up quite often, that I hear from moms or from dads themselves, so I wanted to make sure that we covered everything today Before we begin. As always, I do want to ask you to take a moment to rate the podcast and leave a review. I'm going to add a little incentive. So if you do rate and review the podcast if you have never done it before now is the time you have to leave a review. So I think this is only available on iTunes. If you write a review and rate it on iTunes, send me a screenshot of the review and I will send you, not a coupon this week, but the free PDF workbook my new reflective parent workbook for free. But don't just email me and tell me that you left a review. You need to send me a screenshot of the review at info at Cures Neuroncom. Everything you need that information is in the show notes for my email if you forget it. But send me a screenshot this week and you will get the reflective parent workbook, which is, by the way, a 100 page workbook that helps you reflect on different aspects of your life. You know that I talk a lot about the reflections that I work on in my journaling and I want to make sure that I cover your relationship with yourself, with your partner, with your colleagues and your work and your child, and all of that is covered in the workbook.

Speaker 2:

I would like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute for supporting the Cures Neuron podcast, as well as the McConnell Foundation, our new supporter and sponsor of the podcast. Without them, this would not be possible, and the reason why I'm asking you to leave a rating and a review is because the metrics for this podcast. So the number of downloads and the reviews and ratings are what allow me to get the funding for this podcast, and the funding allows me to get people to edit the podcast, both audio and video, because it is up on YouTube. So without the edits not without the edits, but without the reviews and without the downloads I don't get the support for that. This is not a job for me. It's literally what I love doing to share the research with you and to interview all these amazing people that I have been chatting with for the podcast. So please take a moment to do so.

Speaker 2:

Given that we will be talking about mental health today, I do want to remind you that I have partnered with BetterHelp. The link is in the show notes and you can get a discount on your first month. The information is there below. I just want to remind you that this allows you to get some help and some therapy from the comfort of your own home. I've heard from lots of parents now have been taking advantage of that discount to give it a try, and they love the fact that they could do this at home, either at lunchtime or after work or when the kids go to bed and it really helps them take care of themselves and nurture their mental health. So this is for moms or for dads, and I think it's a really useful tool and that's why I love this collaboration.

Speaker 2:

All right, let's move on to today's guest, dr Matt Angler Carlson has a PhD. He is a professor and the department chair in counseling, as well as the director of the Center for Boys and Men at California State University, fullerton. He sorry. His work focuses on health, pro-social forms of masculinity, social justice and diversity, issues in psychological training and practice and psychotherapy with boys and men. As a member of the APA task force for boys in school, he is committed to educating teachers and parents about healthy boyhood. He is the co-creator with the Positive Psychology Positive Masculinities model, the original framework of positive and healthy masculinities. It adopts a strength-based approach to accentuate healthy masculinities in boys and in men in school and community settings. He was a core author of the APA guidelines for professional psychological practice with boys and men.

Speaker 2:

He's the clinical advisor for the men's mental health app called Mental, and he was just an absolute pleasure to speak with, so knowledgeable and so down to earth. I can't wait to share this episode with you. He's also a dad of three, by the way and we had a lot to talk about and had a lot in common. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr Matt Engler Carlson. Hello everyone, welcome back to the Curestown podcast. My name is Cindy and I am your host. Today we have a very special guest and, as you know, I always come back to dads at some time. I like to bring in these experts that we can have a conversation with, so that we can continue the conversation around men and mental health and their well-being as well. So thank you, matt, thank you for joining me today.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 2:

I was put in touch with you with Travis. Travis came here twice on the podcast. He'll be back soon, I'm sure. Him and I just always have these really lovely conversations of how to include men into this conversation of emotional well-being and mental health, and that's something that I know you are very passionate about as well.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and I think that sometimes we forget that they're there. I mean, like conversations about kind of self-care and mental health, all these kinds of things tend to bypass kind of men and at times maybe there's a disconnect between what maybe we're offering, what the field is offering, and what men kind of want, or what they need or what they think they want.

Speaker 2:

Especially in the parent area. Right when I think about research studies, when I started summarizing research for Keras Neuron, I would summarize the study about parenting and your child and attachment and child development, and it was always about the mom and I would get so many comments from dads saying, hey, what about me? Does this study also apply to me? And it was only once I really dove into the research that I realized there's such a gap in terms of including dads in this conversation of parenting and the mental health conversation as well. And this gap is also in society when you think of the postpartum care. Dads don't really get asked how they're doing and how their mental health is being affected by being a new parent.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that it'd be silly to think that it wouldn't be. I mean, I think that when we look at data, looking at dads, having a child is one of the most significant moments of their life and it changes them and changes happen to their lives in some ways, and yet, in many ways, because men maybe feel like they're the support for their secondary, and in many ways, if you think about an infant.

Speaker 1:

they are, I mean, like the mother is the primary caregiver at first and initially, but it doesn't mean the men don't have feelings, interactions and an internal process. That's kind of happening.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly. So I just realized I got too excited for this conversation and jumped into it. But I just want to introduce you properly. I hope I'm saying your last name right, Engler Carlson.

Speaker 1:

Correct.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So Dr Engler Carlson has a PhD, he's a professor of counseling and the director of the Center for Boys and Men at California State University, fullerton. So your work focuses on healthy, pro-social forms of masculinities and effective psychotherapy with male clients. So, as a member of the Task Force for Boys in School, matt is committed to educating teachers, school administrators and parents about healthy boyhood and I absolutely love that you are doing this work. You are the co-creator with positive psychology, positive masculinities model, and we're going to dive into all of this, but I'm going to add the full bio to the show notes, but what I do want to make sure that we have time to talk about after the end is the app called Mental. So if I forget, just let me know, because I want to make sure that everybody hears about this as well. So not only are you a clinician you worked with children, with adults, you know families and schools and communities but you are a dad yourself and, as you shared with me, there's a young one in the picture as well, a brand new one.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely Four weeks old. So there you go.

Speaker 2:

So we're in the sleepless nights, then Absolutely yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

There's lots of cooperation that have to happen to allow me to get on a podcast right now.

Speaker 2:

I get that. I totally get it. I get it. You know, when I was reading your bio, something that stood out to me is that you weren't talking about studying mental illness and dads, you were talking about studying mental health, and that really made a difference for you. How did you end up here? What was your journey that led to you really wanting to focus on that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean I think it's kind of easy for me which is it's my dad honestly Like. My dad was a psychologist and my dad was a prominent psychologist who worked with families and schools and in many ways I was in the shadow of my father for most of my life, I mean in terms of and I mean that every positive way, meaning that I followed him around, I spent a lot of time with him, I was very close to him and so I grew up in a family in which kind of, I think, talking about feelings and talking about about democratic families and democratic parenting was quite normal. My father an Adlerian psychologist and Alfred Adler was a contemporary Freud and one of the first people to really look at kind of parenting and the impact that parents have on children, and also most parenting programs out there in terms of parenting are Adlerian based. And so I grew up and again in a family in which things like natural logical consequences were common phrases that were thrown around.

Speaker 1:

And so he was my school counselor as well. So again, I would see these things happen in my school setting and I'd see them with my, my parents and my dad. And so going into the field, you know, my parents always said you know, do whatever you want to do. But I always felt like the diet was kind of cast pretty early on and so it would not surprising that I kind of did some parallel things to him. So, and again, being involved in schools, as as a child of a school psychologist and a school counselor, I grew up around kind of child guidance people.

Speaker 1:

Particularly in the 70s child guidance in the United States wasn't a strange thing. Every school had a guidance counselor who came in and talked to you about things like emotions and feelings and friendships and getting along with each other. That certainly went away for the most part in the 80s and 90s and now it's back as SEL. We've rebranded it and re-framed it, but it has an origin and it comes from somewhere. I was very connected to that growing up. I think for me again going to the field felt somewhat normal. I was very interested in it and I started my career doing health psychology work.

Speaker 1:

Then I moved into doing school counseling. I was a school counselor in the public school setting, loved it Still one of the best jobs I ever had in my life. Went back and got my PhD in counseling psychology. Then began to focus more on boys and men. My focus really came out of early training. I had meaning that as a school counselor I worked a lot with girls and their moms. One of the reasons why is that moms were much more likely to be in the school setting. Dads didn't appear all that much. Girls were a lot more receptive to doing work with me. At that time in the mid-90s there was a growing awareness around the emotional inner world of girls and that something had to be different. I did some programming with them.

Speaker 1:

At the time I remember some parents and administrators asking me could you do that for sons and dads? My very flippant response was like sure, but no one's going to come. I think I was correct. I could have done the best organization in marketing and probably people wouldn't have come, even though 60% of the students I worked with were boys. I think I began to get more intrigued by that in my doctoral training and for the research and recognized that as a clinician I also really enjoyed working with men.

Speaker 1:

It was very normal and natural for me.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure that somebody listening just that last part of you enjoyed working with men. I know that it can be difficult for men to see therapy as this positive thing. There's still a lot of stigmatization around that. How common was it for you to work with men, and what was the language they were using? What led them to come to see you and open up those doors for them?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. My early work was certainly with college students. I would say college students is an undergrad, grad student, so it's a pretty broad range. One of the things I became really aware of right away is that most men who I saw were in acute distress. They weren't here for preventative things or beginning to feel a little down. I thought maybe I should get some help. It was more. They were in crisis. They were in acute distress. They came in in an acute kind of crisis route. I would ask some questions like how long have you been experiencing depression?

Speaker 1:

They would not say months or weeks, they would say years. Oh, and the next question how long when you've sought help before? What was that like?

Speaker 2:

I've never sought help.

Speaker 1:

before this awareness that so many of my male clients have been suffering in silence for so long did the best they could to take care of themselves, but it brought them into a place where they were again at risk of dropping out of school, at risk of kind of running into the law or at risk of harming themselves. Frankly, I began to be aware of like there seems to be some disconnect here between kind of, I would say, what the services that we as the mental health field have to offer, and does it really connect with the people who need the help?

Speaker 2:

And in this case, where do you think the sort of not the responsibility is? But I feel that we see it on both sides. Right, we have to find ways to pull men into the therapy room to show them that it is important and that we all need this self-work and the prevention piece. But at the same time, when I speak to dads especially dads who just had a child, and even dads who are taking time to be home with their child, who are being ridiculed and made fun of at work for taking time to be home with their kids, their new baby where do we have to place the focus? Is it on the clinical? Where's the responsibility right? Like working on the society part or working on the clinical aspect of it?

Speaker 1:

I think it's both right Like it's a double-edged kind of double-pronged approach, and I think that when I work again I do a fair amount of work in schools right now and when I work with kind of teachers and parents, like you know, everyone always wants to kind of say you know, tell me what to do to help these boys or these students. And I always kind of say, well, it has to start with you first. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like I. You know, I could give you an intervention which is essentially a tool, but if it's wielded in the hand of someone who has a bias, you know, or some unexplored beliefs in terms of kind of how, the way boys and men ought to be, it's not going to be terribly effective. And I think that on the societal level we have that piece of just how do we make sense of kind, of how we socialize kind of boys and in adolescence and into manhood, and you know how's that going Right? And I would say generally we have an awareness that maybe right now it's not going so well, particularly when we look at some of the greater markers in terms of kind of happiness and health, which would be things like longevity. We know that men die sooner in most Western countries by a significant margin. But then we begin to look back why, and we understand it's not biologically based, right, it's based in terms of kind of lifestyle and healthy behaviors. So we look at those kind of pieces. But then we begin to look at things like educational outcome and attainment. We know that men are falling short again and this has been creeping up for a long period of time, you know. On that end, you know, it's like understanding why these things kind of happen.

Speaker 1:

Like I see these stats and I don't think it's rocket science, you know I think, like sure it makes a lot of sense why these things are kind of happening in a way that they're kind of happening and some of that also has a bit to do with kind of kind of, I would say, boys and adolescents and themselves, which is understanding their own kind of psyche and the pressure and conflicts that they experience around that. So, going back to the example of like a new father, you know he's probably balancing a lot of different types of things. He's thinking how do I support, you know, my partner? How do I kind of deal with the new responsibility of being a parent? Right, you know, and most dads don't get dad training. I know a lot of parents don't get parent training. But for dads themselves, it's like they often parent, you know, to be like their father they had or to not be like their father, that they kind of had. But you know this notion of recognizing that it's a developmental process for men to become parents.

Speaker 1:

But again, that moving into that secondary kind of role, and supporting other people is actually a very comfortable place for most men because they get a lot out of giving to other people, but the cost often is themselves. They're not terribly good at taking care of themselves in that sense and meaning that you know. And when they do recognize at some level that maybe things aren't going well, we often find that those men are disconnected from other people who can help them and their solution to making it better is essentially is to kind of suck it up or kind of take care of it themselves. And you know, we know, that that probably isn't the most effective solution.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know I'm thinking about what you're talking about right now, and you mentioned the word bias and I you know it's about learning how to become a parent. But what I've learned is that there's so much unlearning, so you're learning to be a parent, but that learning is about unlearning a lot of what you might have experienced as a child, and I think that's especially true for men. So I want to take, you know, I want to think of the father who's listening, or even the mother who's listening who, where they've noticed in their home they might have a son or a daughter. But specifically, you know dad who has a son and now maybe he's aware that you know there has to be more conversation around emotion, that there has to be some sort of psychological safety in the home in terms of being able to express it without feeling shamed or guilt, but they don't know how to do that because they've never experienced it themselves. So how can we support that dad who's listening to this right now? Like, what are the first steps?

Speaker 1:

Cindy, that's such a great question and I think it's really insightful in terms of a lot of pieces there, which is, you know, I think for again I'll just focus primarily on dads here I think for dads there is this again, like I said earlier, this experience, that kind of happens, that is, you know, overwhelming and full of wonder. In many ways it's like to hold a child for the first time, to see that kind of process go through and, in some ways, to be, you know, again, men are involved in often types of ways, but in some ways, prior to the birth, you're somewhat secondary and sidelined, right, I mean, you're involved, but you're involved differently. You're never the focus of the attention and when the birth happens, all of a sudden you're kind of called into a role in which you have to act, and I think a lot of men you know a lot of parents.

Speaker 1:

It does bring up kind of things in terms of their own childhood. So you're you're the responsible adult now. At the same time, you're probably in some ways processing your own childhood experiences.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly.

Speaker 1:

In many ways like oh my gosh, like my parents went through this, like again there could be great appreciation for your parents all of a sudden and there also could be like oh my gosh, they didn't treat me as this way. I wish I was treated. And I think for dads there's again. There's then there's outlet pieces, and where's that outlet for dads, that process, that right? And I mean that that we have these internal experiences that often need to kind of have, need to come out and need to be validated in some, some way or another.

Speaker 1:

You know, and, and frankly, society isn't set up right now for men or for dads to do that. We don't expect them to be in the household, right, like we. You know, I know it's somewhat traditional, but there is a, you know, a belief that somehow, like, like, mothers control things within the house and dads kind of take care of outside the house. But dads are inside the house, right, they're there too, and mothers are outside the house too, and we ask a lot of all parents to do everything at this point, you know, and I think a lot of the pressures that men experience get compounded when they become fathers. So they're often thinking about, kind of, how do I provide?

Speaker 1:

you know, but being a father as a provider is very different from being being being a provider of a family without a child. Right Like you, carry certain levels of responsibility and I think men carry that as stress. It worries them, it freaks them out and they're not really sure what they're supposed to do.

Speaker 2:

And I think we don't also have the tools to know how to deal with that stress right.

Speaker 2:

I think that we've been shown and and even my own upbringing like we were shown to kind of push that to the side and just move forward and keep, keep going right. And how do we? You know, I know some only from my own, you know, friend group, but a lot of dads tend to kind of not talk about the stress and not have these discussions, whereas the moms are getting together and like having these you know sessions where they talk about and they come back home, they have a dinner together, but the dads will kind of keep it in and and maybe sometimes we see that as it comes out with it, you know, consumption or addictions and and it's, it's really hard for the parents, the partners, to have these conversations, especially if the father is used to kind of suppressing everything and keeping it all in. Like you said, they have to be the strong one, right? How can a partner, a wife, kind of support that if she's seeing that sort of behavior in her, in her husband?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I think you know again, when we think about being a parent, what again? Whether you're a new parent, whether a second, third, fourth parent. Being a parent is wonderful and it's incredibly stressful. Right Like everything stops, but everything keeps going. Right Like your life kind of stops in a certain way, but all the demands that were still on your plate are typically still there. The bills still have to be paid, support still has to be made. If you're a caregiver or provider for your parents, you still have to do that kind of work Right.

Speaker 1:

So there's and again, all parents do this Right and I think so for dads, I think there's a recognition that this is a role that they're not kind of doing. But we know that dads are nurturers and men are nurturers and we know that men, more than ever, are taking care of other people, Like. There's a really strong data looking at kind of adult caregivers and that men. You know, last time I looked it was like 40% of men take care of their moms, Right, and that is just skyrocketing up, Right.

Speaker 1:

And yet there's also a sense of like, most people would be surprised by that fact. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right. But I can look at my friend group, for example. I'm in my early 50s and you know, all of my male friends are taking care of their moms right now, right, and it's stressful and we're at least talking about it, right, and if we weren't talking about it, I think I'd be terribly alone. You know in terms of how I navigate that. So I think that's part of it is that, again, we see a variety of kind of things that kind of happen. We know that as men kind of tend to get older, we see that they isolate, right. So there's data suggested that as men kind of get older, they don't have social support outside of their primary partner, right. So we might call this, like right now, like a friendship crisis in adult men.

Speaker 1:

You know, and again I would say there's a variety of reasons why that is the case. But if a father, for example, has been kind of leaning on his female partner for a lot of his own kind of social support, all of a sudden now she's also providing for an infant. Right, you know there's not a lot of room for him. In some ways, you know, or at least he may perceive that Right, and then he kind of wonders not where to right go and he might not have anywhere to go Right, so you kind of wonder how that plays out.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I do think a lot of the answers to a lot of these things obviously is to connect with other people. Yeah, is finding ways to connect, and I do think that's somewhere, for example, where, like stay at home dads, like the stay at home parent, in terms of the dad movement has been very good around this, like I've seen some research from colleagues around stay at home dads and again there are a smaller percentage getting bigger. But one thing about stay at home dads is like they're militant about being stay at home dad, you know, and they take care of each other. They have meet up groups and they plan things and they get together and they're typically not alone. And I know a stay at home dad has a lot to do with the circumstances of becoming a stay at home dad, whether it's by choice or which is tends to have more positive outcome, or situation in which you didn't you know you're there because your partner has a higher salary or better. You know, but there's something about that, that that essentially dads need to connect with other dads.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's like that lonely piece right Like I think I'm going to be interviewing these researchers from Colorado in a couple of weeks and we're talking about the loneliness that we experienced right after parenting, and I hear it specifically from moms. I don't hear from dads, but I don't think it means that they're not experiencing this. I think that they're just not having that conversation with me, but it's there and I think that that connection is so important because you just feel less alone in your journey and it is very lonely even if you have this new human in your hands. I don't know why, but I experienced it as well. It just felt alone, like lonely. I don't know why, but it did.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I think we're sharing that, cindy, because I get it Like I understand that kind of piece too, which is, you know, there's an element around like this amazing thing has just happened and yet why do I feel the way that I feel at times? But it's also a big cutoff, like you're, you know, you're not sleeping as well, you're not at your best, you're responsible for a new human being and it's a magical experience, and yet it isn't always good magic.

Speaker 1:

You know, I'm yeah I remember, when I became a dad for the first time, one of my friends who was much older than me. He was a mentor of mine and he was, like you know, very positive. But he said I also want to tell you some other things Like, and I was like well, what do you mean? He's like well, here's some stuff that people don't kind of tell you, and I was like all right and and I was like pardon me, it's like thanks for telling me.

Speaker 1:

Right like you know, because I was beginning to experience some of those kinds of things, which is but that's straying them on my primary relationship and Kind of wondering what to do around that and you know, obviously lack of physical intimacy, that kind of happens as well, and how to, and again, for men that's kind of a big deal, because a lot of men process Like emotional connection to through physical intimacy, right Like, and if that gets kind of changed in a way, they kind of feel like they're being rejected at times, when the reality is that it's part of being a new parent.

Speaker 2:

So how do we create this sort of positive environment in a home? You know, for dads, obviously for moms and dads, but our focus is dads today, because I also want to keep in mind some conversations that I've had with with parents or things that I've heard and I like she's kind of. I like sharing this because I know that they're not the only one. So I know there was a mom who Refused to let her husband almost do anything with the new baby because she just felt like and I know more than one mom that has done this you know Like where they just feel like you're gonna do it wrong. Like I know the routine, I know exactly what to do. Let me do this. You do other things around the house, but let me take care of the baby. Like this is my responsibility.

Speaker 2:

And I also know Some dads are share, who have shared with me that they didn't feel that their home felt, you know, safe to express emotions. And even some moms who have said I hate it when my husband cries or shows emotions, it's so like it's it's what were the words that they use. It was a turnoff for them to just see their husband do that. This is very important for us to talk about, because they're not the only ones. And there might be somebody listening to this saying I Might be doing this without realizing. Maybe it's not intentional, but it's part of those internal biases that we have, that stigma around men that they have to be masculine, whatever that definite. You know that definition that we have of them. So how do we start changing that within our home? Instead of thinking of society, now, let's focus on changes that I guess we can make in our homes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah again, or that's a really good insight and I appreciate those parents sharing those with you too, because it takes a bit of honesty to kind of say like, frankly, when he cries I don't like it. You know, because he probably knows that too. Frankly, I'm sure like he's aware, like oh, she bristles. Or like you know, or when I show Emotions, I feel worse.

Speaker 1:

Yeah right, like which is a common experience why men actually don't share emotions. It's because, at whatever level like we think about, even at a very small level, it's like we're always picking up kind of feedback from our environment. And you know, we know that emotions are helpful when they're validated back. That's basically understanding around emotions. And we know that when you express emotions and they're not validated back, they're, you know, actually expressing them is not terribly healthy. Like you don't feel better. You tend to feel shame, right, yeah, and for men, like they learn this at a very, very young age that it's essentially expressing tender emotions, depending on the audience, you're gonna get a very different reaction, right? So you wonder, why isn't couples therapy that one of the big presenting concerns is that I want to talk about emotions. If he doesn't, you know, a lot of women think like talking about emotions is amazing. I talk about, I talk with my friends and they, they validate me back or they kind of like acknowledge me and guys are thinking well, when I share about emotions, I feel worse.

Speaker 1:

So why would I ever want to talk about emotions? You know, but I think I see that as a way of kind of saying like these are kind of stereotypes, but they come from somewhere and they're often embedded in kind of just ways in which we interact, and so we may struggle for example to see like a male partner show tears or to kind of talk about being overwhelmed, because what we need, or what we think we need him, is to be strong.

Speaker 1:

In these moments like and but. But strength, I would say, is like we have to redefine what strength is his strength? And not showing emotions and being like a statue, like you know, or his strength actually kind of expressing emotions and being human Right and and connecting with your partner at that level kind of too, because I think the reality is is that, whether, whether you like it or not, right, whether you find it attractive or unattractive, men have emotions, because we aren't robots, we're human beings right, so we are going to have emotions and we don't.

Speaker 1:

And when we don't show the emotion, like when we experience pain, and we don't give you a painful reaction, we give you something else, like that's being stoic, for example. You know, there's an incongruence there in terms of what the experience is Right and I'm feeling conflict around that too in those moments, right, so I'm not expressing myself and I'm not being my true you and that you know, the research does show that that does have some impact for men's lives.

Speaker 1:

Like it tends to lead towards, things aren't terribly good, but I think the notion around that is beginning to recognize that, like again, there's some humanity and it meant to like they. They do have emotions and this is hard for them and there are times in which we need our partner to be strong, right and and, and there are times in which we just need to kind of connect on a level in which we're both overwhelmed.

Speaker 2:

How do we so? You mentioned the validation part, which I know is important. So if we Know that our partner is really struggling with opening up, perhaps because they've never been given that opportunity Assuming that it's a safe home for them to express it, and we are open to them doing that and we don't want to shame them what do we do if we keep validating their emotions and they say, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not feeling overwhelmed, or I'm not stressed, or I'm fine, yeah, not an emotion which I tell my husband all the time emotion.

Speaker 1:

That's a thought right.

Speaker 2:

I study emotions, yeah, but you know there, I know that there are lots of dads saying that they're always fine and we want to, like you know, open up that. That. That list of you know vocabulary, I guess, of around emotions. But If we keep getting that hitting that wall and we want to create that safe space for them to be able to, and we want to create that safe space for them to open up, they've never learned how. How do we, can do we, as their partner, teach them that? Or do we just keep showing up and validating? Do we? Yeah, like, because I know we're gonna hit walls right, so how do we break through that?

Speaker 1:

You know, there's a couple things I think, and one I would say is that you know. One is that I again ask someone who studies psychotherapy and looks at therapists, looks at therapy, and you know, I also recognize that therapy tends to privilege certain types of emotional expression, right. So in a way, like we value experiencing emotion in the moment, so we think about this notion, like you know, I want him to show his emotions. What we might, that typically is, I want you to be emotional with me right now. So in this face-to-face interaction, you know, I want you to kind of share your inner world with me verbally, right, and then probably, like, show some type of physiological response, potentially like I hear right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah you know that that is just one way of expressing emotion, right, emotions can come out in a variety of other ways too. They can come out through through writing. Expressive writing is one way to kind of do it, actually very effective. Another way of doing it is through the body, you know. So, as opposed to kind of like even the therapy, like tell me how you feel, you know instead it's where are you feeling this in your body, or what sensation do you feel with your body? What is that sensation? Right? So I may not be able to kind of feel fear, let's say with you and show you in my face, but I could tell you like my stomach feels very uncomfortable right now. Right, I know that's like a very higher level way of thinking about, like emotionality, but I think that the notion that we privilege this immediate expression and verbally naming the feeling, a lot of men and those experiences feel like I can't compete with you.

Speaker 2:

Right, it got.

Speaker 1:

yes, yes, Right, and I'm gonna do it wrong anyway. So instead I would say, like, look for other ways for it to come out, like song, movies, things like moments in which, like you know, you know how this is a new parent all of a sudden, something you never thought about before, you hear a song that you've never even given much to, and you can hear it and immediately you think about your parents, right, and you get triggered and something comes out Like that's an emotional reaction right there, and guys have that too, and I would say that part of it is just recognizing that there are a lot of ways for it to come out. You know, I also think for a lot of men at least too.

Speaker 1:

It's like you know, I use this often in my training, which is, like you know. Let's say, you're all walking down the street and you look on the left side and you see a cafe and you see two women sitting at a table and they're looking at each other and they're engaged in conversation and you think like, oh, they're having a very intense emotional conversation. And then you look to your right across the street and you see two guys who are digging a ditch, who aren't looking at each other. They're digging a hole and you think they're just digging a hole To say they are also having a very rich conversation.

Speaker 1:

Like I've actually said very intimate things to my male friends not looking at them. Like I'm a cyclist, I ride bikes, so I found myself screaming very emotional things at 25 miles an hour down the street, like with my friend who's not looking at me. But there's something about the physicality of kind of your action which I find that I can express things like that and I think that's not uncommon. But again, we somehow think that, like that, those guys digging a hole or not having I mean, and heck, maybe they're just digging a hole, right. Right.

Speaker 1:

But I don't know a lot of guys who dig holes, who don't say something to each other. Yeah. Like those start shooting. You know bullwackin' for it. Then, before you know it, through code, they're saying things about their lives that probably has a lot to do with their inner world. It's not all about sports and hockey, and you know other things. They will often talk about things happening in their lives right, because it's a very safe way of kind of doing it.

Speaker 2:

I really appreciate that you said all that, matt, because I feel that I think that and it comes I see this in parenting styles as well where the mom expects the dad to parent the same way and I tell them you don't have to, you don't have to have arguments around like parenting the exact same way, you're going to find what works best for you and do it in your own way. And what you've just kind of validated is that we need to think of emotions the same way. Right, yes, it's important to express ourselves, but we might not, we shouldn't, expect our partner to express it the same way that we want to. We are looking for that tear, we are looking for that reaction the way that we would as women, but we can't expect that.

Speaker 2:

And that's okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I tell this joke when I teach sometimes. I think it's funny, but it's one in which you know the couple is talking and she may be saying like I just want him to say that he loves me, you know, and he's like but I washed your car, right. And he's like, tell me, like, but I washed your car, you know, and I was like, oh, that's his way of saying that I love you, you know and you know, and so they're missing and they're both to send the exact.

Speaker 1:

They're both saying the same thing, all right, but you know I can't hear you wash my car through my, through my brain, as you love me and a couple of therapists will teach you this, like he's just telling you that he loves you Right.

Speaker 2:

Yes, right, no. I have two memories that come from that. So, first, my grandfather was extremely significant in my life. So my father left when I was very young and he struggled with alcohol and he struggled with his mental health. So I saw that part of it growing up, which is part of the reason why I do what I do. But my grandfather had never said the words I love you to me, although I was always by his side. My brother and I were with him wherever he went and he would show it, you know, in the way that like he was hammering something and pass me the hammer and say like come, you do it. Or in the way he would support me with my homework. And I felt loved so much by him. And even when he, in the last few days of his life, you know, I squeezed his hand and I said I love you and he mumble like I love you, and that was the first time I ever heard it and I still hear it and I still hold it, you know so so close to my heart, because it was like wow, you said it. You know like it came out.

Speaker 2:

So I think of that and it's true, we do see it in different ways, but I also think of the car washing part, where I live in a neighborhood here in Montreal where it's there are lots of Italian immigrants and their kids are living here now and last summer my husband and I were sitting on the front porch and this new, these new parents they had like a baby who was a few months old and the father was washing the mom's car, was washing her car and she walked out. She stomped out of the house with the baby in her arms and we couldn't hear what they were saying, but there was a lot of like arms up in the air because they're Italian, and then he passed her the hose and she passed in the baby and he went inside. So I think, I think that the car washing, sometimes holding the baby, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I know you love me. I love your joke. Yeah, but hold the baby. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you know I do want to touch.

Speaker 2:

I do want to touch on this emotional expression a little bit more, because I just mentioned my dad and I know that this is also common in some homes where the father is creating this psychologically unsafe home or this emotionally unsafe home. So I want to flip to the other extreme with the dad just for a few minutes. You know my father would be very angry most of the time and then he'd be I call it angry sad. When he was drinking he was clearly still angry, but more emotional. And now in retrospect I realize that there was, you know, he was struggling with his mental health, but I know that this is still common where men feel comfortable expressing the anger part and not comfortable showing what's underneath that.

Speaker 2:

How do we again thinking of that home. Navigate that as their partners if we are struggling to show them that that's not the healthiest for our home.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, I think it's still true to today that I think the emotion that men are allowed to express is anger.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, and I think that you know, my colleague, david Shepard, who's a couples therapist in California, talks about anger as a funnel emotion. But essentially that everything you know essentially happening in your inner world gets funneled into anger. And I see this as a clinician too, which some will say like how are you feeling? I'm angry, I'm pissed, I'm frustrated, when what the really feeling is ashamed or hurt, you know, or disconnected, right, and so they'll. So again, I would train like a counselor to validate the anger, right, and then kind of find ways to move a little deeper around. That, you know, and that's again that's like like a clinical kind of setting. But there's just a recognition that you know, men experience a lot of things through anger and it doesn't mean they don't have the capacity for anything else, right, because again, we know that men have the emotional capacity just like anyone else.

Speaker 1:

We also know that like at birth, for example, boys tend to be more emotionally expressive than girls at birth, right, and something happens over that period of time and a lot has to do with kind of context around emotionality too, is that you know. You know, if you think about, like, the heart as a muscle, right, you know, and the heart is where emotions come from, and muscles have to be trained. You know, if we don't work out the heart, eventually you get a bit out of shape in terms of how to express those emotions and so our emotional range might appear very small, right, but it's because I haven't been training my capacity to get bigger, you know. And so, again, I think that we can kind of help kind of men kind of broaden that capacity around the emotional kind of piece. But it's also kind of scary areas for a lot of men, because I think that you know a lot of the work I do with boys, a lot of things we see in school settings, for example, we know that it's actually emotional regulation is what a lot of boys need to kind of learn, and the key to anger management tends to be emotional regulation. And again, if I'm a father and I struggle with emotional regulation because my father struggled with emotional regulation, right, you know, it's pretty hard for me to kind of teach that to my child without some intervention along the way, right? So, even though I may say, like I never want to be like my father, right, because of the way he went off, right, you know, if I don't get some help, good luck Like I may not do the exact same thing he does. I'll just do it a different way and I'll probably come up with the same outcome, right and so.

Speaker 1:

And so the hard part about that, of course, is that it can be hard for men to accept help, right. So, again, he may not want to appear to be less than, or to be a novice, or to not know what he's kind of doing, and so he may feel may feel, you know, in those moments, at times when he feels kind of dumb, stupid, belittled or small, what he's happening is there's a shame or action kind of happening, and so before he even sees disappointment in his partner, he's already done it to himself, right, he's already gotten very kind of small around that and began to beat himself up around it. So, again, you wonder why we have these kind of looped interactions. That kind of happened the same way with the poor, same poor outcome. It's because, again I think things could trigger it on on a guy's inner world, which is kind of like, again, talking to other dads is super helpful. Having other kind of men who have been fathers or fathers is talking with you and kind of finding ways to get out of the house.

Speaker 1:

But it can be really hard, I think, for another kind of say like don't do it that way, right, because it's rough, or you know and so it takes a bit of step back to kind of say like I know you love, you know our baby so much, you know and I I want to show you another way which you can kind of do that. But it takes a lot of patience because in those moments it's like both parents tend to be pretty afraid. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I think men then become again, because they may kind of think that this is not my area of expertise. When I feel I'm just going to opt out, I'll just step out, right. And so when a guy kind of walks away, it's hard to have compassion on those moments. But it has a lot to do with shame on those moments, so that he feels small.

Speaker 2:

I think it's important for us to think about that, right, because we just see it as walking out and that's hard to.

Speaker 2:

It's like when I talk about a child's behavior, where they're not misbehaving on purpose when they're very small, like there's something underlying that. And it's the same thing with us as adults, right, sometimes we see the external piece of it but we don't realize there's an internal aspect to it. I had interviewed somebody here on the podcast who had spoken about this anger that he had and how he was expressing anger. He had been taught not to express anything else but anger as a child, but he had also experienced some trauma and never really brought it up to his partner until he had kids and they were older and she was saying that she wanted a divorce because the anger was really taking over their lives and really affecting it. And that's when he kind of opened up about the trauma and started therapy and started healing and the anger went away. Do you see this very often, where men feel that shame around any trauma they might have experienced and choose not to speak to anybody, even their partner, about it?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely yeah, and it's you know, for as obviously trauma focused as the mental health field is right now, right, we have to realize that, for the most part, trauma is still a new concept. Right, it's really oh.

Speaker 2:

I didn't know it was considered new.

Speaker 1:

I mean, it's really 50 years in the making. If we think about it, is this recognition that what we used to call shell shock, right? Well, we used to think again that trauma was something that men in the military or people in the military experienced through horrific events and it was kind of again like a kind of event that was rare. And what we've come to recognize, of course, is that maybe traumatic events are not as rare as we thought they were. Of course, not all traumatic events lead to trauma responses, right, some people are able to cope and overcome that and the majority people are right. But there's recognition that trauma is more ordinary than we kind of think, right, and I think there's some truth around kind of ways in which kind of boys are brought up that can be traumatic. And part of that is there are a variety of things that I was thinking about earlier, like as much as I talk about and try to normalize and understand kind of why men do what they kind of do, right, I think this notion that we normalize kind of male stepping out behavior is not okay in fatherhood. That men have the option to kind of step out and not be apparent, right, we give them a pass right in terms of kind of not like that's an element of kind of male privilege that I would like to think that in my lifetime is going to be different, right, but there's still elements around that. But the other part of kind of, when we talk about male privilege or power, is this recognition in which is that we don't call out the things that we kind of see in men right, because we fear kind of a masculating, ridiculing or kind of seeing them as less than right. So like that's the magic of male power is don't look at this right, but that's the demise of men, right. Is that what in a way keeps us kind of stronger, or at least has us appear to be stronger, actually is probably what kills us.

Speaker 1:

So we don't see things that happen to men as traumatic, like it's only recent that we realize that like men could be sexually abused or boys could be sexually abused, right, when the reality is that this isn't something that just started in the 70s. Right, it's been horrific for a long period of time. And even when we look at kind of male sexual abuse on the age of 25, there's again, part of the reason why we didn't look at it is because, a, we thought that that again, boys were supposed to expect sex, right, and then, b, if somehow they were abused or molested by a male, that somehow it meant they were gay. So there's a variety of kind of very powerful kind of forces that keep us to have compassion for the trauma that men experience. And men do it to each other, right, so we don't actually recognize things that happen to us as dramatic.

Speaker 1:

So this notion that somehow later on in life he might say like, oh, by the way, this horrible thing happened, he may not have coded it or thought about it or viewed it in a way that impacted him, right, Because he wasn't allowed to, because men are supposed to be strong and independent and tough.

Speaker 1:

So this notion of having kind of some compassion around that is a way in which for a lot of men, like being in therapy, is about forgiving oneself, right, and about acknowledging the kind of the wear and tear that he might have gone through throughout his life. And I say that saying that I know it can be hard at times for people to kind of give men compassion, because, without a doubt, men cause a lot of damage to them, right, and yet there's this peace around kind of holding both pieces of that around. Oppression that again, this notion of oppression is kind of the things that keep you in power do kill you too. I mean that literally like that's one reason why we know that men die sooner than women, that we kind of do it to ourselves and I think ultimately for a lot of men you know they do figure that out at some point that that the pursuit of power and prestige and all these kinds of things actually leads to disconnection and lack of health and isolation and unhappiness.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, all right. So now I know that we've given parents lots of information and I'm hoping that this gave them a good conversation to sit together and listen to, because that's truly my intention. I always want to make sure that we provide information for both parents. Now, if a dad is listening and feels that he needs to start the work, but he's not sure where to begin? I know you mentioned expressive writing and I've read the research on this as well and see the positive results, as you said. Can we talk a little bit more about that and maybe also introduce fathers to what our skills could look like for them?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that again, one of the disconnects I think we have right now is this notion that we have a population that is in need of help, which in this case could be men or could be new fathers, for example, and we have the existing kind of services.

Speaker 1:

That again, I need help and this is what we're offering and they don't match. And so we often kind of think like what could we do to change men to make them more amenable to our services? And I would say, like what if we flip that question, what could we do with our services to make them more amenable to the needs of men? Exactly, and I think part of that around that is recognizing that, again, there are a variety of ways in which men can benefit, and I think expressive writing, for example, is a good one. And I've seen again for two decades I've seen data on this that kind of says like there are ways in which men can build connections with their daughters and sons and partners. They feel like they can't say things face to face, so they write letters and the reaction is amazing. But it's a little bit of coaching that kind of happens that needs to kind of just give guys an idea that this is beneficial.

Speaker 2:

So I know, when they hear expressive writing, perhaps they're thinking about journaling, you know, talking about your day. Is that what we're talking about here, or something different?

Speaker 1:

No, I think there's like journaling is certainly like part of that, like it's like the tip of the iceberg in some ways, and there's a lot of very good journaling apps that are out there right now for men.

Speaker 1:

And so, again, thinking that that you may not be one who kind of like has a, has a leather bound journal and you sit in right for 20 hours a night, like that may not be conducive to your life. Instead, you might actually voice text it into your phone, right, or you might kind of use your phone to kind of do that kind of pieces, which is a way of just kind of getting some of this stuff kind of out Right. And there's again, there's a variety of apps that exist and some are tailored directly for men. Around that kind of element there's also, I know, some places I've done like expressive writing kind of groups. There's certainly kind of self-help kind of books that exist or as well as a way to kind of. You know, what we're looking for is a different medium, essentially like a different way to kind of shift, kind of how he can kind of express these kind of feelings.

Speaker 1:

And, again, part of the, the expressive writing pieces, it's actually learning emotional regulation, right through the expressive writing right, you're getting kind of these things kind of out and then the reflection kind of piece of going back a lot of the apps that are really good, particularly kind of AI. Once you know I mentioned, I work for mental, which is the mental health app for men. There are elements of that in there in which the guy can kind of do some expressive writing on a topic and then Then it can be sorted and given back to him in a way like these are the things that I'm hearing you Talk about, right?

Speaker 2:

Wow and that can be really, really helpful to hear it right, you know and so I know that that reflection piece is something that has helped me personally, you know, because sometimes you have an argument with your partner and you feel that you weren't heard, and you go back and you reflect on it and you're like, oh, I wasn't listening either, because when they were talking to me, I was thinking about what I wanted to say next.

Speaker 2:

Exactly I say it with humility, I mean, I realize it myself and but reflecting on and coming back to that, to that conversation, is is where the growth happens as a couple, because it's like, well, I'm sorry I was, I was an ass.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I shouldn't have said that. And and that's where the connection piece comes in, you know so, through reflective writing and the fact that you're saying through the, your app as well, through mental, that they can get some Feedback, I mean that's wonderful, because that's what is difficult sometimes. Right, you can write it out and say now, what, what do I do? What do I do with this? Yeah, but having that, that kind of coaching, is really supportive.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think you're right, it's the. You know, even for me, when I do kind of writing gets going back and Looking at it, because it's actually perspective taking too. Like you know, when you write something go back, you're kind of an outside party looking in and you can kind of look at yourself and say like oh boy, you were so off there.

Speaker 2:

Right, but it's true and I think that perspective taking it takes practice you know, like and especially that emotional perspective taking, because this is something we've discussed a lot.

Speaker 2:

It's sometimes we say something and our intention is never to be hurtful or shameful or mean it Could be taken that way. That person, there's emotional perspective taking right, so that the way that that person experiences the same situation emotionally, absolutely experiences it's, it's different and and only once we start questioning that and reflecting that that we can say like, okay, I see that you, you took it that way, that's not what I intended, but then that's at least the validation piece comes back right absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I see that you felt you know mad about that, but that's not what I intended to say and and that's really important in arguments- Absolutely, absolutely yeah what, what else is on the mental app? I'm really curious now.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, so so the mental app is the first, first mental health app for men. It comes from the creators of calm, and so it's essentially recognition that that calm, which is a widely used app, there weren't as many male users at all, and so the right and yet the needs exist. And so I think the thing about mental is that the notion here is is meeting guys where they are, meaning that there's humor involved. It's funny, it's not. You know, it's not necessarily therapy in the same kind of way. It doesn't mean it's not therapeutic as I was like to say, but it's using kind of kind of kind of humor as a way to make you kind of laugh but also kind of gain some insight and some self-reflection on yourself.

Speaker 1:

It's very goal-driven, and so there's ways in which there's daily content, kind of a dose of dose of meta of Wisdom that kind of spurs you along. There's a cold shower protocol. So if you've ever thought like, hey, I really want to take a cold shower, I'm just I'm laughing because I thought like I would never want to do that. But but there's a cold shower protocol which is coached by a Navy SEAL who actually kind of created the word toughness program for the SEALs and it's very focused on teaching you kind of skills. And so this notion here is that the way they train the SEALs is they use cold water as the medium, as a way to induce stress, and then you learn skills to reduce your stress in those kind of moments. And so I Start doing the cold shower thing myself, and I started at three seconds.

Speaker 2:

And now, now I'm building up the one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, now building up, building up the three minutes, and and I've learned different kind of skills in those moments. And again, there certainly benefits the cold water exposure.

Speaker 1:

But there's also benefits to doing something and I think there's something about like, like a Trouism and even therapy and behavior changes, that in some ways you don't matter what you do, as long as you're doing something you know like like a body at rest remains at rest. The body of motion says in motion. Mentalists like getting you in motion and getting you to doing something about the things that matter. But there's also all events around how to get you off your phone. There's a digital discipline protocol, which is pretty fantastic, and then there's some anger, anger management and also stress management kind of pieces in there too. But I would say generally the nice thing about it, it's a way to kind of check in on a daily basis, get some motivation and drive and Do something.

Speaker 2:

Hmm, I love that. I'm gonna share the link with our audience in the show notes. And then I you mentioned very quickly maybe books or other like Reflection apps, anything after our conversation that you like to add to share with our audience, I'll add the show notes and, as always, there will be some studies as well.

Speaker 2:

You know the last piece. I this is so hard to end this conversation. I have to say mad. This is so good, we're gonna have to meet again. But just one little last thing there. There's something actually reached out to Travis about this.

Speaker 2:

So I follow a lot of, you know, mental health influencers and dads and moms and the. I find like the language is very different. Like the moms talk about self-care and the dads talk about this mental toughness through exercise and putting yourself through these challenges. And One dad in particular had said you know, like, stop saying I feel depressed, it's enough, get off your ass this is the language that use and just like do something, go for a workout, wake up at 4 am. You know, get off your phone and just do it. Put yourself through that torture of like Something so that you forget about, like, the mental health piece. I struggled with that and I just want to end with that because you know he was saying how he used to be depressed but once he started working out, everything went away. How do we, how do we balance, you know, these ideas of masculinity and this mental toughness with, I'm not sure with what, but with that, that true mental health piece To. I don't know like. What's the what's the right approach?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, I understand what you're saying kind of, because there's a bit of disconnect around, like you know guys, and the way that some of this is aimed to kind of and in general, is that you know the way to. You know, essentially the way to kind of work on your mental health is to just get tougher.

Speaker 1:

Right right and I and I would tell you that probably is not the way to get you through, to get hit you happier. I mean the way to be happier is to connect with other people, like like we could be through exercise right, meeting friends at the gym. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and moving is important, but I don't think that is, but I don't think you're gonna push up your way out of depression, let me put it that way right, like you may have a great, you know, your shoulders may look great, you may have great abs, but you might be still sad, right, and I think thing around that is like you know. I Do think that there's something about kind of like I said this earlier this disconnect between, like, a population that needs help and what's being offered and.

Speaker 1:

And and yet I will tell you that I think men enjoy being in therapy. When they're there. I think a lot of clinicians love working with, with male clients, right, and I think when and men actually love being a therapy because they feel like they get validated and they get listened to and they learn a lot about themselves, and so that notion that men don't like therapy.

Speaker 1:

I I don't buy it, frankly, you know, I think all men need to need being therapy. No, I don't actually right. There's a lot of ways, that kind of kind of work on yourself, but I do think that. You know, I think healthy habits is a really big piece here. I think for a lot of guys we get stuck into some habits that aren't terribly kind of healthy and we get kind of stuck and that spirals itself because our outlets to get out of them make it really difficult. Like if I'm in a bad habit and I can't reach out to someone else, then I'm just counting on myself. When I'm counting on myself is falling back on the same things I've done before that don't tend to work.

Speaker 1:

And then there's a way which I can be isolated, because society allows me to be isolated. That makes sense, like there's no Expectation that I make healthy connection in some ways, like if I'm the lone wolf, I get validated for it, right, but the lone wolf is lonely, like you know. Frankly, that's true. So there's ways in which we have to do something kind of different and I think even with the app or working with guys in general, it's like Work to connect with other people and work to kind of just build some healthier kind of habits. So doing push-ups is the beginning of doing healthy habits, right.

Speaker 1:

But so is beginning to look at kind of like self-compassion for oneself, be getting a look at other ways to kind of express emotions, sharing that with another kind of person, and I think that that's the kind of stuff that I would really kind of courage to do, and I think that's again a Lot of influencers out there. It's easy to give advice and it's easily forgotten, and I think people do have complex lives, right. I think we have to be aware of that. But I think we also can give very good, sound advice that's evidence-based. I think with mental we're really careful about that.

Speaker 1:

It's evidence-based, but it's also strength-based, like it's future-focused, strength-based Not going to shame you and to in terms of who you know you're not Right. We're going to kind of inspire you to be the kind of person who you want to be, and that person is not going to be one who kind of you know, take shots of their people and and steps and other people, right, because, again to the day, like I know that Healthy relationships is the number one factor for living a long, healthy life, right, and so I want to help you kind of have Relationships with your, your children and your partner and your parents and your friends, even your boss, that's better right, right, matt, thank you for everything that you shared today.

Speaker 2:

I absolutely enjoyed our conversation and I really look forward to the next one. Thanks again, and I will add all the show notes in the I will. I will add everything that you mentioned in the show notes, so thank you to everyone for listening awesome.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, and that's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2:

Thanks you.