001: On Not Parenting, Deep Privilege and Face Reading

Jamie and Lo talk in-depth about quarantine brain and “collective trauma”, how a recent book they both read lead them to uncover even more white privilege, all served up with sides of astrology, enneagram, Indian Matchmaking, and what they are excited to read in September. 

Transcript

[intro music]

Lo: Hello poddy pod! 

Jamie: Hello!

Lo: Is that how I’m going to start every episode now? That everyone loves that.

Jamie: What up, bitches? Like that.

Lo: What up, bitches? No, but I did not realize that party pod was going to have such a mass…

Jamie: Explode!

Lo: Right, like I literally – when I said it and I was editing after, I was like, “Huh, it sounds like I’m saying – telling Clarance to go potty, like outside.”

Jamie: You were embarrassed for yourself.

Lo: I was like, “Shit,” but everyone just loved it, so hey!

Jamie: Everyone really glommed on. It’s – I can’t wait until we’re sitting here holding poddy pod mugs.

Lo: Oh.

Jamie: It’s going to be good.

Lo: That’s it. We have to have that.

Jamie: Yeah.

Lo: Um, okay, so I have a question for you -

Jamie: Yes.

Lo: - to kick off the potty pod.

Jamie: Can’t wait.

Lo: Um, I…so, I feel – and this is…I also have a thyroid disorder, so everyone take this with a grain of salt, where I’m trying to figure out is brain caused by this, or what the fuck is going on? I just want to know what is the weirdest memory related thing you have done in quarantine?

Jamie: Like a memory lapse?

Lo: Right. Yeah, like, you’re like, “Why the fuck did I just try to do that?”

Jamie: So, I don’t even know if I can totally blame this on quarantine because I bought my new car two weeks before quarantine started, so my lease was getting up, and this was like before COVID was like becoming a thing, we had just gotten back from Asia, which like, crazy, we took a trip to Asia right before COVID started, and like, we’ll never be able to go again I kind of feel like, right?

Lo: I know, but don’t say that because I really want to go to Thailand.

Jamie: I know, and now I just knocked on wood for you. Okay, so I got this car – so, I leased my car at the end of February and then COVID start a couple of weeks later, and probably like a week and a half ago, Ben drove my car somewhere. Ben goes no – Ben is my husband, for people who don’t know. Ben goes nowhere.

Lo: Ben goes nowhere.

Jamie: He goes nowhere. He’s a hermit by nature, but especially with COVID, like he’s probably left the house, other than to like, walk the dogs, a total of ten times, like he just doesn’t leave the house at all. So, whenever he does, he takes my car because it’s the one in the back of the driveway.

Lo: Right.

Jamie: So, he went to go pick up food and got to a drive-thru and called me in a panic, and was like, “Are your car keys on the counter?” and I was like, “You’re in my car. What kind of a weird question is there?” and I like looked, and I was like, “Yeah, they are on the counter. How are you driving my car? What is happening?” and he was like, “I don’t know. I thought I lost your keys because I only saw my wallet on the front seat, but like, how did I drive your car away, like what’s going on?” So, he got back, and we were like testing out like, were the keys close enough to the front door that it like started, like what is happening? Like it shouldn’t be, right? They’d have to be in the car. So, we’re testing all that, and I put the keys in the furthest spot in our house from the front door and the car still started. So, I was like, “That’s not it. There’s something else going on.” 

Lo: Right.

Jamie: You have any guesses as to what…

Lo: The spare key is like, in there.

Jamie: Yeah. The spare key has not been removed from my glove compartment from the day I bought the car. It’s been in there for six months. My car could have been stolen.

Lo: Oh, this was recently you discovered it!

Jamie: Last week. Last week.

Lo: But, did you know it was in there?

Jamie: Like, I guess subconsciously…like, eventually, we were like, I must have never taken the spare out, that’s why I looked, but I assumed that when I got the car I took the spare out and put it in our front drawer or whatever, but no, it’s been in my car for six months.

Lo: That’s pretty funny. 

Jamie: So, there’s my…I can’t totally blame it…

Lo: Okay, no. So, I, the other day, was – someone asked for like Alex’s phone number, like a delivery person, and I forgot his phone number. I did not forget it…

Jamie: See, that wouldn’t even phase Ben, He’d be like hm…and just wouldn’t know.

Lo: No, like I was off by one digit. It was so fucking weird, and I had to check it, and I was just like, “Oh my god, so scary,” but then the other fucking day I was like cleaning the countertops with countertop spray, and I go to put the countertop spray away in the refrigerator.

Jamie: Oh, I was waiting for that.

Lo: Yup.

Jamie: That’s like old people shit.

Lo: Thank you. So, then I was panicky, right, because I’m like okay, is this…like, this could be, potentially how, you know, people say mom brain or pregnancy brain, where you’re just kind of like, “I’m only communicating with a toddler. What’s happening?” So, I wonder if this is like a phenomena, or could be like my thyroid, because brain fogs art part of my whole thyroid mess, but then, you know me, history of like – not history, not necessarily, but my dad had Alzheimer’s, so I’m like freaking out.

Jamie: Panicking.

Lo: Sheer panic. So, I was like, “I have to know.” So, I actually looked it up, and it is not – it is not, like, a lot of people are struggling. There was a woman that washed her face with hair conditioner, just like, “What the fuck is happening?” Yes, or other people who like forgot their spouses’ phone numbers. Anyways, I read a couple of articles, and it’s interesting because one woman is referring to quarantine and like what’s happening to our brains as “collective trauma.”

Jamie: Oy!

Lo: Mhm. So, then I start reading more and I’m like, “Okay, give me some more.” So, I read like three different articles, and basically it was talking about how in this, in like a pandemic situation, our brains go into fight or flight, and generally, like in a transient type of threat situation, it’s great that our brains do that, it’s like we’re hyper-aware to like the tiniest little threat or like little changes in things, we freak out. But now we’ve entered this – it’s been months, six months or however fucking long, we’ve entered this state where it’s like habitual, so like our brains…

Jamie: Now it’s the new normal…

Lo: Right, so our brains are in this – so, and here’s the thing, like sometimes when you feel…like sometimes you can feel fight or flight in your body, right? Like, you like…

Jamie: The adrenaline.

Lo: Right. So, now that we’re in this habitual state, our bodies no longer give us the typical signs, so we’re just kind of like…our brains are permanently wired to like figure out “What is the threat? What is going to happen?” And then it’s kind of like what my therapist says, when you get anxiety, you’re like…you kind of try to like create…like, find the situations that are like, “Why do I feel this way? Like, let me find the reason why.”

Jamie: Right.

Lo: And so basically, we’re trying to figure out, like, our bodies are like pushing away memories, we’re like putting everything else in our brain on the backburner, because we’re trying to figure out like the fight or flight. Anyways, so it’s a thing. She’s calling it “collective trauma.”

Jamie: That’s terrifying.

Lo: I know. I was like…are our brains going to be permanently fucked up? Like, I’m like, this is actually really…it’s really interesting, because we don’t know many people that after lie, the 1918 pandemic, we don’t know…

Jamie: We don’t know any people.

Lo: Anyone. Wasn’t there one woman, like she died? Like she was…she survived – no, she got COVID and didn’t die.

Jamie: And survived. She got the 1918 flu and survived, and got COVID and survived, but like, that’s it, and we don’t know her personally, so.

Lo: So, I’m like with every…are we all just like mentally deteriorating? But, it means our brains are working correctly, the fact that this is happening.

Jamie: Well, that’s good.

Lo: It doesn’t make it less scary that it’s like such a permanent, like, habitual thing, but she says it means if you weren’t stressed out…

Jamie: That would be a problem.

Lo: Right, like your brain is firing correctly and you have no issue.

Jamie: So, maybe there’s something going on with Ben, because he seems not stressed. 

Lo: I was going to ask that, actually, because I also consider myself just kind of…I’m an introvert in terms of that’s how I recharge, so I like to be alone when I’m like exhausted, but I do think I get…people think I’m an extrovert, 100%, so I get confused a lot, but I experienced this…so, like a couple of days ago, I think I for real felt the like, “Okay, I’m feeling like I’m a recluse and that I’m maybe not talking to people enough, I’m not getting out…” I just suddenly felt like the detriment of quarantine in a way I imagine extroverts have been feeling. So, Ben is feeling none of that.

Jamie: Mostly no. I mean, his office, like a couple of months ago, had like an outside socially distanced happy hour and it was just like their exact team, so it wasn’t even a very big group of people, and he was like, “Yeah, it was like nice to see people,” and one of his best friends came over, like at the beginning of quarantine for a couple of hours, and I mean, that’s it, really. So, I don’t think it matters as much to him, whereas to me, I’m losing my shit. Like, I used to think that I was more of an introvert than I am. I was like, “Oh, no, I’m like a split. I’m very outgoing,” but I also was like, “Yeah, I need to be alone.” I’m sick of being alone. I’m sick of like, my recharge. I still like it once in a while, but I’m done with it for now.

Lo: You know what’s so funny, too? I’m like, thank god for the things that we’re doing that it’s forcing us to have intellectual conversation, because that’s where I was like, “Is this like mom brain?” I guess Alex and I chit chat, but I need to be like, intellectually stimulated, I’m realizing, in a really weird way, and I’m like, maybe that’s why we’re creating a podcast in the middle of all of this. Maybe it’s like a subconscious, like we need…yeah.

Jamie: Well, the crazy thing is, like I started my bookstagram – if you are the one person that’s listening to this that does not know, we should probably do like a little back story.

Lo: Yeah, go for it.

Jamie: If you guys don’t know who we are, yeah, didn’t even introduce ourselves. First episode, 20 minutes in, haven’t said…

Lo: I feel like we just know who our audience is, and we know it’s like five people, so it’s fine.

Jamie: Haven’t even said shit about who we are. Okay. Well, I’m Jamie.

Lo: I’m Lo.

Jamie: And we actually have – surprise, surprise, have never met in person and Lo is now one of my best friends.

Lo: Dearest.

Jamie: People like don’t – some people just – Ben included – just don’t understand that. He’s like, “I would never have a best friend from the internet, like I’m not an internet person.”

Lo: To be fair, he wouldn’t.

Jamie: No, he definitely wouldn’t. Not even maybe, he for sure wouldn’t.

Lo: Right.

Jamie: But, I made my bookstagram account, which is, if you don’t know, it’s an Instagram account basically to share books that you read and review books, it’s like a really…like niche corner of the internet.

Lo: It’s a thing. I mean, it’s a fucking thing. When I joined I had like no fucking idea. It is…real. It’s very real. Up in the bookstagram.

Jamie: So, I did it like a week before COVID hit, it was just like a kind of random thing that happened. One of my girlfriends has one, and she was like, “You should totally make one,” and I was like, “Okay.” So, I did, and then a week later, COVID hit and quarantine started, and I was like, “Well, this is crazy timing,” and then a month later, Lo and I bonded over the word “fuck,” because I use it like a comma, basically, and she was like, “Oh, you might be the only other person on bookstagram that swears because everyone here is so pure.”

Lo: So pure. The purest, and I feel like I have to be a different version of myself sometimes, or a different version than I’m imagining.

Jamie: Right, we’re trash.

Lo: Right. Before I met Jamie, I was like, “I have to be different, like the PC version of myself.”

Jamie: The next version. Yeah, no.

Lo: Which exists, but like, not naturally.

Jamie: No, same, like very unnatural.

Lo: No, so I started my bookstagram in…I started reviewing books for friends and family at the end of 2019. I just posted one review and everyone was like raving about it, so I started doing it, and then, I don’t even know how I discovered bookstagram. I was just like, “Maybe this is annoying that my entire personal page is books. Maybe I should just like try to see what this is all about,” and it is a thing. I was like shocked.

Jamie: A real thing.

Lo: It’s a real thing. I was so overwhelmed the first month. After the first four weeks, I took a hiatus, because I was like, “Okay, I don’t know what I’m doing. What’s happening?” I kind of set boundaries for myself, and I figured out how to manage the anxiety…I was like, “I’m just not going to post every day. I’m going to post my reviews and keep doing what I was doing on my personal account and just do it here.” So, that’s kind of how I balance. But, it is. You posted every day for a while, didn’t you? 

Jamie: I stopped.

Lo: You have like, three times the amount of followers that I do.

Jamie: Well, first of all, let’s clear the air here. So, I lost my job due to COVID a month into like, the pandemic, and so like, it was another way for me to fill my time and not feel like I was a waste of space, which kind of goes…

Lo: Like work had been replaced.

Jamie: Right. It kind of goes to like my sort of quarantine realization, which yours is like quarantine brain, mine is like…the quarantine routine problem. 

Lo: It’s real.

Jamie: It’s real. A lot of people have like – I mean, everyone has had their routine disrupted with quarantine, right? Like parents are now, we’re having to – and still having to homeschool their kids, and not to take anything away from teachers, but having two full-time working parents from home and trying to make sure that their kids are on Zoom at the right time, like there has never been a time where I’ve been more grateful to not be a parent. Like, I don’t know how anyone is doing it.

Lo: Smartest decision I ever made. My friend and I, we like congratulate each other. Even though we didn’t plan it, we’re like, “Congratulations on not having a child right now.”

Jamie: Like, I just…there is nothing I’m happier about, just because I can’t imagine the stress, and even my sister, she has a two-year old. He’s not in school, but like, she’s working from home, her husband is working from home, and like you’re trying to watch a two-year old while you’re working from home. I mean, it’s impossible. 

Lo: So, I feel like the only age – and I was talking to Alex about this, because I have a couple of friends who are going to have babies – like they’re going to have infants, and I – one of them already had it, but like, there’s a kind of a sweet spot of like, okay, it might be nice to have your husband around all the time. 

Jamie: For sure.

Lo: Like, not the worst thing to do in quarantine, assuming the hospital is safe and all that. But, I think it’s like…

Jamie: There’s only a short period.

Lo: Yeah, it’s like year one to like year six, even…when do they go to kindergarten? Like, I don’t even know.

Jamie: Five.

Lo: Yeah, I can’t fucking imagine. I was like, the only way it would be kind of nice is like as a new mom, without having to take paternity leave, like your husband is there. It’s wild. I agree with the routine thing too, because I…that’s the only way I’ve kind of stayed sane. I’m like, I need to do yoga.

Jamie: Well, when I was still working, like, I had still had some sort of a routine because I had to be up, I had to be answering emails, I was billing hours still, I was sitting at a computer and I had to be working. Once I lost my job, it was like…for a month, I like was a blob. I just like…it was this weird, “I’m just going to read. I’m going to sit on the couch. I’m not going to do anything,” and then I started to…after about a month, I started to feel like, the itch of like, “Okay, I need to get moving,” but I still, we’re now five months in and I still don’t really have a routine and I need to make one. I mean, I need to do one of those things where it’s like, okay, you get up in the morning, we have a peloton, so it’s like, do I get on the bike in the first thing in the morning? Like, have a set thing that…

Lo: Even if it’s like just a morning routine, I think that can like set your day up so well.

Jamie: For sure.

Lo: Okay.

Jamie: If you’re listening to this on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, we do have a Youtube channel, so this is being recorded, and if you want the most unedited version of this you can possibly get, you’re going to get that on Youtube.

Lo: Like you’ll see that I took my blazer off and I’m schivitzing a little, so I’m like airing my armpits out, good stuff. Can we talk about outfits though, too? So, I put on hoops for the first time in six months, and I never felt more like myself. Literally, never felt…I was like, this is me. I should just be wearing hoops in quarantine with my pajamas so I feel like myself. I swear to god.

Jamie: Should we go to our namesake segment?

Lo: Yes, we should!

Jamie: So, I think we both have like similar “Try Saying That Out Loud” moments.

Lo: Yeah, and so, this, for us – so, just so everyone knows, the name of the podcast is largely based on these like, little self-realizations that Jamie and I are coming to and like learning about ourselves and growing in this like, really weird, contained space that is quarantine, because I do feel like both of us are like growing quite a bit. So, the try saying that out loud moment of the week is the like, the “Oh, fuck! That is who I am” moment.

Jamie: Right. So, our J Lo reads this month – for August – was “Men We Reaped” by Jesmyn Ward. It’s a memoir of her life. It’s incredible. It’s extremely deep. It’s extremely intense, so I don’t…

Lo: Yeah, not for the fucking faint of heart. I picked this book up and I was like, “Damn it.” For whatever reason, quarantine has also made me want like, escapes, like I read a fantasy book…like, what?

Jamie: Yeah, what the hell?

Lo: I know, but I was like down. I was like, yep, give me. Okay, alright, give it to me. So, I was like, “Shit, we picked a memoir for the next J Lo Reads pick.” I picked it up, I was like, “Oh, I wish I was loving…” I like loved it, but it was – it was hard.

Jamie: It was really hard.

Lo: It was a really difficult book.

Jamie: So, the way the book is structured, it is…she talks about the five men in her life within like, I think it was a span of three or four years that died within three or four years of each other and then kind of wove her stories in between those chapters, and there was a section in the book that had to do with dog fighting, and of course, like you and I are both diehard animal lovers, I have two dogs, you have a dog.

Lo: I like dogs more than humans, most of the time.

Jamie: Yeah. So, reading about animal abuse is horrific. Like, it’s just like…it produces such a gut reaction where you just feel instantly sick to your stomach and just like, totally beside yourself, but then as I’m reading this, and of course it’s like in the context of this horrific life story of this woman who has had five men in her life die within multiple years of each other for being young and black, and I was like, “Why am I not having this exact same reaction to these young black men dying? Why am I not having this like punch in the gut reaction about humans dying as I am about a dog fight?” and we’re just so desensitized to just hearing about another shooting, another death, and I just…

Lo: Is it desensitism? Here’s my thing, and I totally agree with you. I mean, I often am like, I’m just…do I hate human beings? Like why do I not…but it can be anyone, in a movie, if there’s an animal in the movie, I’m like a fucking disaster, but a human can die and I’m like, fine. But, here’s my thing. So, like, I agree, like we should be having the same reaction, 100%, but…and, it’s desensitization, but the thing about the way those men died was…we shouldn’t be desensitized to that, right?

Jamie: Right.

Lo: Like, it wasn’t like…and here’s the…so, I guess I’m like contradicting myself as I say this, because it’s like, on the one hand, I feel like we shouldn’t be desensitized, on the other, I’m like, are we just…are we at a point in our education about kind of the way this world and this country has been built where it’s unsurprising? Like, the dog thing came out of left field for me a little bit, because that was an education moment for me about male masculinity in the black community, and that I was like, “Oh wow, okay, so that’s a power for them,” right?

Jamie: Right.

Lo: Like, that’s how they’re having power in this very small space in which they can exercise power. So, I don’t know. I guess on the one hand, I’m like, we shouldn’t have been desensitized because so many times in the book, I was like, “Well, you know, add that to the list of something that would never happen to a white person,” like getting fired for mislabeling a box, I’m like, “Oh my god,” it happened one time, a white person would never deal with that, or a white-looking person even, and so yeah, on the other hand I’m like, yes, and then on the other side of it, I’m like, are we just like not shocked by it? Like, is this just…to me…

Jamie: Part of the learning.

Lo: Yeah, because to me, I was reading this book, and I was like, oh wow, every statistic we read about. Every single one. Mental Health. Childcare. All of those things.

Jamie: All of the things.

Lo: It comes to life in that book. So, I’m like…on the one hand, I’m like oh, are we, you know, not fully desensitized in the way that we’re like, “Oh, you know, we don’t care about the loss of life of black people,” but are we just sadly – both of them are tragic.

Jamie: Unsurprised.

Lo: Both of them are tragic, but are we just unsurprised, because we’re just like, “Okay, this is validating all of the things I’ve been learning.”

Jamie: Right. And, it’s impossible to know, because we have been desensitized our whole life, and not, you know, up until a few months ago, have not been like really digging in and doing the work, so to say.

Lo: Right, totally. I’ve uncovered so much shit. 

Jamie: Right.

Lo: So, here’s the thing, too. I think it’s like, this book should be – I think you agree, required reading for white people, because it is – I did pause, and I was like, whoa, okay, so all of these people are dying of things that like, you know, I feel like some people, especially white people, try to be like, “Oh, he deserved his death for XYZ,” or “He did this, so he deserved it.” Not the case in any of these instances. Quite literally, none of them.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: So, it’s like, it makes you pause for a second, because you’re like, well, okay, that could be my child as a white person. That could be, I don’t know…

Jamie: The exact same thing could have happened, but didn’t because of the conditions that poor black communities are faced with every single day.

Lo: Right. Like a faulty train track. You know what I mean? It’s dark. It’s really fucking dark. Or like access to healthcare for mental health.

Jamie: Mental health was the biggest.

Lo: And like, being believed. I like felt so much like, you know, especially as I am kind of transitioning – once again, typically, transitioning to this kind of wellness, nutrition space, one of the things that I’ve come away with when I first decided that I wanted to do that was, there has got to be a way where I can go to these food deserts and like actually help people get quality food, because I can talk about nutrition all day, but this is a white…

Jamie: But it doesn’t matter.

Lo: Yes, this is the most privileged position that I am in, that I can eat healthy and do all of the things that I can do, so how can I like, pay it forward and like, bring that to other…to communities of people that like are just overlooked.

Jamie: Can’t.

Lo: Yeah, especially the health and the mental health and all of that. In my wellness brain I was like, “Ah! This is so bad.” So sad. No, that’s a good one. So, my – it’s also related to the book, was – this was the most – the most pause I took. I was like, “Shit. This is such a deep level of my privilege that I did not even know existed.” So, you know, like my…I don’t want to say this as a blanket term because I don’t think my mom would agree, but the marriage between my father and my mom that I saw as a child, as someone growing up – they never divorced, but as I saw growing up, made me believe that I actually would have preferred to see my mom, you know, not deal with the verbal abuse, and like kind of divorce my father, versus deal with it. And, my sister saw it totally different, like, she, a lot of – has very different memories. We’re like four and a half years apart.

Jamie: Oh, interesting.

Lo: It is weird. It’s so, so weird how much…like she remembers those parts, but I was in high school, and then throughout college, she had gone to the east coast by the time I started college, so there was a separation.

Jamie: A different experience.

Lo: Right, and I don’t think the man I knew was the man my mom married. There were mental health issues that he never dealt with. But I, this whole time, you know, I have friends who struggle with their marriages, and they’re like what if we have a kid and we’re fighting all the time, and I’ve always had the perspective – and this is so fucking privileged, but don’t do that to your child. Like, your child can be fine and balanced, there’s like this modern family concept, right, of divorce, co-parent, you know, do whatever you have to do, but make it stable for your child, because having your child see – I was in like sixth grade, and I remember going to my mom’s bathroom after they fought and being like, “Uh, why don’t you divorce him?” in sixth grade. Sixth or seventh grade. I was so…

Jamie: Like young.

Lo: I was young! And I was like, “Mom. You know,” like the very much Aries in me, I was like, “Get it, come on. We can like do better for ourselves.”

Jamie: And she was like, “Mm, have a seat.”

Lo: Well, I mean, I don’t even remember what she said to me, I just have that memory. So, I’m like…so, to me, I’m like, would I have been different had that – my parents divorced, like would my relationship with my father had been different in a better way? Like I always think of the positive ends of that, but what I kind of realized in reading this is I was like, you know, people without dads, especially young, black men, young black women, without fathers – like, that’s a thing in the black community, and like, it’s another thing where it’s like, I kind of reacted to the like, the male – almost like toxic masculinity in my mind, I wrote that word down and then had to like humble myself, but I was like, you know, that’s like so privileged of me to say, because like, having a family unit like that can be so powerful and unlock so many powerful things. I do think it’s like…I don’t know, I still am grappling with it.

Jamie: Of course there is a line right, like of course, there is some point where the divorce is necessary, but to your point, it’s like…you don’t realize like, the benefit.

Lo: Right. The family separation happens in the black community, just say that like I often wonder what my life would have been like if my parents had divorced, and thinking that would have been a positive thing for me is so privileged, because for a white person, it probably is. Like, the co-parenting is possible, the modern family is possible, but it’s a modern family. We’re not thinking about race in that conversation, or in my…

Jamie: At all.

Lo: Anyway, so that was like a “WHOA!” for me. I was like, “Shit!”

Jamie: I mean, that’s like layers down, and that’s something you never in a million years would you have touched on had we not started doing this work, which is…it’s like kind of a terrifying thing, because you think about, you know, before the murder of George Floyd, we were like, “We’re good people. We’re liberal people. We’re voting for the right person here.”

Lo: Right.

Jamie: Oh, in case there were any qualms about where we stood politically, um…

Lo: We started on that one.

Jamie: Yeah, but I mean, we were like, “We’re good people, right? We’re blue. We’re the moderate liberal women,” which like, as Martin Luther King said, we’re the biggest problem.

Lo: The most dangerous. We’re the most dangerous.

Jamie: Because we think that we’ve got it all covered and we don’t have a clue.

Lo: We don’t have to do anything, like, “Oh, we’re on the right side of this, so it’s fine,” but if you’re not doing actually something about it, then you’re…

Jamie: Then you’re useless.

Lo: Yeah, you’re totally useless. 100%.

Jamie: You might as well just…yeah.

Lo: So, that was my try saying it. I was like, whoa, privilege, hello. Like, it was honestly, in some ways, like we did the Me and White Supremacy together with a bunch of other women, and honestly, that realization from this book was maybe more intense in some ways for me than some of the things.

Jamie: Really?

Lo: Like, there were definitely some things of White Supremacy that hit hard, but this, for being a memoir, and not necessarily trying to like, you know, Me and White Supremacy is like education.

Jamie: Do the work, yeah.

Lo: So, it’s like okay, we have to cover these things and acknowledge what privilege is, but I’m like…that was the moment, it was probably more powerful because I was able to come to that on my own in realizing that was privilege, so I was like, “Whoa, okay, it worked,” you know?

Jamie: That’s why Me and White Supremacy is such a good tool because it’s a couple of minutes a day and it unlocks all of these different things, talks about all of the different areas that you wouldn’t have recognized you have privilege, and now you’re going to see it everywhere. Like, once, like at the end of the book, Layla basically said, like, you can’t unsee this. Now that you’ve seen it, you’re going to be thinking about it all of the time. It’s totally true.

Lo: Yep, and that’s totally true. Yeah, so if you guys are listening and you haven’t done that, do it.

Jamie: Do it.

Lo: But do it with other white women, and have conversations, because that…

Jamie: Or, men if you have ones that you trust and are willing to put it in. Both of our husbands were like, a lot less receptive, and that’s…I mean, it’s not fine, but it’s fine, like we…you know, we found a group of women to…

Lo: Love in the time of quarantine, you hear me say that? It’s a weird fucking time.

Jamie: For the people that tell me their relationships are thriving in quarantine, I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you.

Lo: I know. I like, want to believe you. In some ways, Alex and I like, I’ve realized we have a strong marriage because we haven’t tried to kill each other. Like, I’m realizing we’re not on the brink of divorce, so we’re a really strong…like, we can spend this amount of time – like, we could be in a cardboard box together and probably be fine, but in other ways, I’m like, it is…it’s, yeah. Like, the whole anti-racism conversation stuff, like he’s coming around to it for sure, but definitely more resistant, so like, I don’t know what it is about men. I don’t know what it is.

Jamie: Well, it’s also like, we’re very independent people, our husbands are independent people.

Lo: Yes, that’s true.

Jamie: So, this is like the most time we’ve spent with them, maybe ever, and like, you know, mass…definitely for Ben and I, like we were long distance for a few years before we moved in together.

Lo: So wild, yeah.

Jamie: We went from long distance to moving in together, but when we moved in together, we were both working, it was just…that was already a transition, but now, we went from, you know…

Lo: Isn’t it so funny to think, because you’re saying this and I’m like, yeah, but like, 1800s, this is what marriage was.

Jamie: This is it. You are there constantly.

Lo: All the time. And like…

Jamie: Fuck that.

Lo: I know, it’s wild. It’s just so crazy because people get married these days…

Jamie: Like, what’s a girl’s trip?

Lo: Right. People get married and are like, “This is great! Like I love spending time with my husband!” But, you’re never with…like, what? Like, you’re never really with your husband, how do you even know?

Jamie: How do you know? Right.

Lo: It reminds me of the Indian matchmaking show, which by the way is brilliant.

Jamie: So good. So good.

Lo: I’m like obsessed with it.

Jamie: I haven’t finished.

Lo: Yeah. So, I have – you know, two of my best friends are Indian, Indian-American, both of them were born here, but one of the moms on the show is just like my friend’s mom, like it’s – I was laughing out loud.

Jamie: That’s amazing.

Lo: But, I was like, okay, so, sorry – I literally sent them a text, I was like, “Sorry if I was like ever insensitive to thinking,” you know, like not insensitive, but like, you know, there’s no way I could have understood, truly.

Jamie: Not realizing how much pressure.

Lo: Right, and like how real that is, even seeing it from like the parent’s perspective, right, because you’re always on your friend’s side.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: And so seeing it from the parent’s perspective, I was like, “Oh wow,” but I also like texted my friend, I was like, “So, is this face reading thing a thing? Like, come on.”

Jamie: Is it real?

Lo: It’s real. 100. Send me to a face reader, also.

Jamie: Same.

Lo: Also, I was like I didn’t realize astrology was such a huge part.

Jamie: I told that to Ben. He was like, “Really?”

Lo: Huge! And my friend was like, “Oh yeah,” she was like, “the one my family uses I don’t believe in. We can find you another one.”

Jamie: So, she doesn’t like her family’s one and she wants a different one.

Lo: Yeah. She was like, “Well, my family’s one told me that I was like, going to have kids by now,” or something. She just didn’t believe it or whatever. 

Jamie: Yeah, right, like it didn’t fit her.

Lo: I was like, but it’s interesting, the matchmaking perspective, because as I’m learning about astrology, I’m like, oh wow, okay.

Jamie: For sure.

Lo: This makes a lot of sense.

Jamie: So, speaking of astrology, if you follow either of us or know either of us in real life, you know Lo’s obsession with astrology and mine with the enneagram, so you’re going to be getting a little bit of both of them on the podcast.

Lo: Which I, by the way, am like an amateur astrologist. 

Jamie: Whatever.

Lo: I’m like, just literally learning, but I just find it really interesting, and I don’t know if anyone uses the pattern, the little app you can download on your phone, it can be sometimes terrifying.

Jamie: Yeah.

Lo: Like, I don’t read it every day, and I often will read it and realize that like, a period has passed, like basically the pattern is about establishing…

Jamie: Patterns.

Lo: Right, I know, how do I explain that, though? Anyway, establishing patterns in the world, but in your life. So, like I have a pattern of female power, was one of my patterns for a while, and it still actually is. So, they have like, lengths of time they go, but…

Jamie: Wait, wait, wait. To interrupt you, the world pattern. Do you remember what it said? It’s so fucking scary.

Lo: This is what I’m saying. The world patterns are the scariest, because – so, I didn’t join the pattern until April or something, and Bre had told me, she was like, “Look at the world pattern.” She was like, “I checked,” she’s been on it a while. She was like, “At the end of 2019 I was looking, and it was saying from like December 31st 2019 through December 31st 2020, there’s like,” I don’t remember what they’re calling it, but it’s global disruption.

Jamie: I’m pulling it up.

Lo: Yeah.

Jamie: Right. It was wild, and I was like…”Okay…”

Lo: Terrifying. And where it was basically like, everything is being turned upside down, people are rethinking the way they’re like living and working. So fucking weird. And this was predicted before…I mean, I guess someone could argue that like, this stuff had broken out in Asia, you know, in China in November or whatever.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: But, before it was kind of like, I don’t know when they post it. Anyways, there also was a pattern that lasted for two and half weeks that started…

Jamie: Yours?

Lo: No, world, that started the day before, or the day of George Floyd’s murder, and it lasted two and a half weeks.

Jamie: So, like the protests basically.

Lo: Yeah. So, like that’s when I was like, “Okay, kind of…like, this is weird.” And this is honestly – like, I’ve always been interested in astrology, but I had this period last year where I was like, “I just don’t identify as an Aries.”

Jamie: Oh wait, can I read it? I found it.

Lo: Yeah, please read it. Please, please, please.

Jamie: Okay, so it’s January 1st, 2020 to December 31st, 2020, and it says, “A rare and challenging energy has been escalating over the past few months, and right now it’s reaching one of its climaxes. On January 11th, we sent a world update that addressed this cycle. Time has now progressed and related events have unfolded. This time is highlighting a sense of discord in the world that has been building over the last five years. This level of tension hasn’t appeared for nearly 700 years, and there will likely be other peaks over the remainder of the year. Irrational or uncontrollable events may occur, and they could leave you or the people around you feeling powerless,” and like it keeps going, but like, basically it was like, “This hasn’t happened for the last 700 years, have a nice day.”

Lo: Uh-huh. So, let me tell you also what Bre sent me. “The last time Saturn was in Aquarius was during the Rodney King riots. The last time Pluto was in Capricorn was during the American Revolution. Neptune was in Pisces when Rome fell. We have all three right now,” and this was like a couple – this was once again around the time of George Floyd, but like, compounding, so I’m like, “Whoa!” The planets, there’s something. I often am like, what was going on that day I was in a really weird mood? Or like that week that was not great? And I’ll go and check the pattern and like it had passed, but it would be like…

Jamie: And you’re like, “Oh, Mercury was somewhere.”

Lo: Like, oh yeah, something was happening with like my moon or whatever. And, everyone’s impacted differently by it too, which is so interesting, because it depends on where your planets are and all that.

Jamie: Okay, so give a brief overview for anyone that doesn’t know shit about astrology, I know very little. Do like a brief overview so that when you talk about like what’s coming up, people like kind of understand.

Lo: Yeah, and bear with me too, because I…actually, I should show this book. So, Bre bought this for me. It’s called, “You Were Born For This.”

Jamie: Love it.

Lo: It has a very aesthetically pleasing, like you know me.

Jamie: It is, it is so pretty.

Lo: By Chani Nicholas, and she’s amazing, but she…so, this book, I’m educating myself and I’m learning – I’m digging really deep, so I’ve printed out like my chart, like can you see it?

Jamie: Yes.

Lo: Like, I printed out my chart and I’m like annotating it as I go. Every chapter is like dedicated to a certain thing, but anyways, astrology as a baseline is literally a circular map of where the planets where when you were born, very simply. It covers all the planets, you know, Mercury, Venus, Mars, all of them. But, often – so, there are three main signs, there are like signs and then there are houses, and houses can be a little confusing, so I’ll start with signs. So, signs, when you say your star sign, you’re talking about your sun sign. That’s like the sign that is widely used.

Jamie: Like I’m a Sagittarius because I was born December 12th.

Lo: Yes, based upon the date you were born, yeah, exactly. So, I’m an Aries, yes. And, often this – so, there’s sun, moon, and your rising sign, or your ascended sign. Your sun sign is often thought of as kind of like, the baseline of your personality, or Chani Nichols also says kind of like your – what does she say, the path…your life’s purpose, like what you’re supposed to do, and your sun sign, all of the planets sit within a specific house, so I’ll talk about those, but when you think about like your sun sign, also thinking about where it sits in terms of like, the houses or like focus areas, so there’s like, you know, family, there’s finances, there’s love, and you know.

Jamie: I see.

Lo: Yeah, they’re like different focuses.

Jamie: Career, whatever.

Lo: So, for instance, my sun is in the ninth house, which is travel, education, philosophy, astrology – weird.

Jamie: Shocking.

Lo: Publishing, weird. I didn’t know this at all.

Jamie: Oh, weird. Really weird.

Lo: Really weird. And, I have…and so when my sun is in the ninth house, so Aries, you’re like an exalted…so, I have this very, very strong Aries presence, but when you read about your sun sign or your star sign, you have to think about it in terms of the house that it’s in, because for me, like I’m not an Aries in every aspect of my life. Like, that’s just not realistic.

Jamie: Same for me and Sagittarius.

Lo: Yeah. But, in the particular house that it’s in, like it’s kind of wild because I’m realizing, oh wow, I really do…I like depth, like philosophy, like I like to think about education, I’m all about…like I’m all in, like I feel great when I’m like in the middle of learning something new or like educating someone else, so it’s kind of…it’s interesting to think about your sun sign in regards to that, so it helps a little bit.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: But, then there’s your moon, and this is how…sometimes I say like, it’s how people handle, like negative situations in some ways, but Chani describes it – and actually that makes a lot more sense, it’s really how you handle, like your emotional needs, like your physical, emotional needs, like what you need from your life. So, I’m a water sign in Scorpio. I’m Scorpio moon. Water signs are known to be very emotional.

Jamie: Oh, I didn’t know Scorpio was a water sign. I thought it was a fire sign.

Lo: I know. I did too. For the longest time, I did too. But, they’re very intense and emotional. So like, intense, emotional, so like for me, like I need – and mine sits in the fourth house which is governed kind of like home life, which is also kind of weird, because there are like sometimes people with moon in Scorpio go into like real estate, or like I was going to be an interior designer, making homes for people is a big thing, and I tend to be very intense and deep and emotional and like I need that – I need space to cry and like, let myself have emotion, whereas Aries is like, we’re just courageous and strong and go get it and whatever. Anyways, so it’s interesting. But, so, that’s how you think of your moon, kind of like your emotional needs. Then there’s your rising sign, or your ascending sign, and that’s…I often say like it’s how other people see you, like how you come off to other people.

Jamie: Like your external appearance.

Lo: Right, but it’s kind of like, Chani says, and it kind of speaks to it, Chani says basically it’s like the direction of your life, and like where you’re going. So, to me, it’s like the why of why you do what you do, so like – or how you do what you do. So, like I’m a Leo. Leos are known to be like love – kind of extroverted, so this is where that comes out in me, where it’s like people think I’m an extrovert.

Jamie: Yeah, for sure.

Lo: I like put it on and fashion, I love like aesthetics and things looking pretty.

Jamie: Yeah, Leo rising for you makes sense.

Lo: Yeah, so it’s kind of like you know, how people perceive me, or how like…how I go about my life’s purpose, basically, like how I do that. That’s astrology, roughly.

Jamie: Yes. So, and this is like very, very rough, enneagram, and what I’m hoping we can kind of do going forward is when we kind of get to the enneagram/astrology section of the podcast each month, kind of like have questions submitted from people.

Lo: Yeah, that would be cool, from enneagram, too, because it could be like, “My husband’s a five, how do I deal.”

Jamie: Right. Lucky if I can tell you how you deal. But, yeah, I think it would be cool if we could each take like maybe a question or two questions, we can kind of go in-depth and be like, “Alright, they asked about rising against their moon,” or, “I’m a this and my husband’s a that, like what’s the compatibility?”

Lo: Totally, that would be so fun. Yeah.

Jamie: But, so the enneagram is also a pretty ancient tool that has sort of come to like, popularity and pop culture in the past few years.

Lo: I didn’t realize it was ancient.

Jamie: Oh yeah, it’s old. It’s really old.

Lo: So cool.

Jamie: It’s really old.

Lo: Even before Meyers-Briggs, obviously. Meyers-Briggs is kind of modern, right?

Jamie: Oh yeah. Yeah, it’s way before Meyers-Briggs. So, the way I kind of explain the enneagram to people is Meyers-Briggs is what you are, it is your personality type. The enneagram is why, and like your motivations behind your personality type, and the enneagram, unlike Meyers-Briggs, in my opinion, gives you the tools to do a lot of introspection and learning why you do things, and if you don’t want to do those things anymore, how to prevent yourself from doing them and realizing, like being more self-aware.

Lo: Like the self-awareness, recognizing.

Jamie: Yes. I’ve never been more self-aware than I have like, being attuned into the enneagram, and same with kind of…it really, really helps my relationships, which is kind of why I push it on everybody, because it really helps.

Lo: Yeah, it’s so interesting. I was going to ask, like with friendships, do you immediately know how to handle them in like certain situations?

Jamie: A lot better, honestly.

Lo: Yeah.

Jamie: Obviously, especially with my husband, who is a 5. So, I’m a 2. I’m a 2 winged 3, but I’ve recently discovered that my wings are more balanced, and I’ll get into that in a minute, but…

Lo: Yeah, tell me what the wings are.

Jamie: Yes. So, and then my husband is a 5, and the Enneagram Institute, which is like, if you’re looking for an online resource, it is the bible for the enneagram, every bit of information you could possibly need. The basis of the enneagram is there are nine distinct personality types, 1 through 9. The numbers don’t mean anything in the sense of like best to worst, they’re in a circle. So, numbers 8, 9…

Lo: Like astrology.

Jamie: Right. Numbers 8, 9, and 1 are considered the gut triad, and that means like 8, 9, and 1, they kind of, those three types go with their gut, go with their instinct, and the number – so, if you have a triad, you have 8, 9 is in the middle, 1 is on the side. 8 is an outward expression of the gut, 9 is both, does both inward and outward, 1 is inward only. So, 1s will be like very introspective and like reacting internally, 8s will be very kind of in your face, and 9s will do a combo. Yeah. And, that goes all the way around, so the next triad is feelings, it’s 2, 3, and 4. 2s are in your face – Hi! 3s are both, and 4s are much more internal, so that’s like Carly and Bre. They’re the feeling triad. The heart triad, the feeling triad, like we’re very emotional.

Lo: I’m also a 2, just so everyone knows.

Jamie: Yeah. We think more of a 2 wing 1, but like I said, we’ll talk more about the wings in a minute. And the last triad is the thinking triad, and this one is actually interesting, because the 5 is like, they think on you, like an extra – not that 5s are extroverted, 5s are generally introverted.

Lo: Are they just kind of a word vomiter?

Jamie: Yes, like the way that they’re processing the information and sharing it, it’s an external. 6s do both and 7s do it internally, which is interesting, because you would think 7s do it externally, because they’re very like, out there, in your face, extroverted, but the way they process information is internally.

Lo: Interesting. That’s interesting, I like that.

Jamie: So, basically, the way I suggest you find out your type – the best way to do it is taking the test on TheEnneagramInstitute.com, it’s $12, but it’s by far the best test, and then it’ll kind of give you your top couple – I mean, it’ll rank all of your types, and you’ll be able to see what your top, top couple of types are, and if there’s a huge discrepancy between your top and your next one, the odds of it being not your first one are pretty much zero, but if there’s some scores that are close, I encourage people to read more about them, because you know, the questions can kind of…you might not interpret them correctly, or the way that the quiz is presented to you, you may not necessarily understand what they’re trying to ask.

Lo: I was mistyped with that, right? I came out as an 8?

Jamie: I think you were a 6? Or maybe a 6?

Lo: One of them, I don’t remember, I’m fucking dyslexic. It had a loop on it, okay?

Jamie: Yep, yep. But, right, and that happens, especially on the free versions. I always tell my friends who take the free versions, “Send me your breakdown, because a lot of the time, your top one is probably not going to be it, but it will be one of your top three.”

Lo: Right.

Jamie: So, wings, you can have a wing and it can only be a number on either side of your main type, so I’m a 2, so I can only be a wing 1 or a wing 3, or balanced wings, and it basically just means like, where you’re drawing kind of…not inspiration, but like where a lot of your personality characteristics come from that isn’t just your type. So, the 2 wing 3…

Lo: It’s kind of like astrology in that you have a sun sign, but you also have moon, rising, like you’re pulling from various energies.

Jamie: Right, right. And so, you – and you don’t have to have a wing, like I know a couple people we said…I might be more balanced, you might be more balanced, but some people like lean heavy towards one side or the other, and all of these books have like names for each type, like 1 is the reformer, 2 is the helper, like they all have different variations of the names, and then the same with the wings. So, like a 2 wing 3 is considered the hostess, and it’s like, you like having people over, the sociable aspects of serving, like hosting a party, hosting a book club, hosting a podcast, like that kind of stuff is…

Lo: Welcome to Jamie’s Podcast.

Jamie: Right. I mean, basically that is sort of what it is.

Lo: Let me bring you tea.

Jamie: Right, right. So…

Lo: Yeah, which is where I’m like “Hm…maybe not a 3.” 

Jamie: Right, well, and that’s like where the wings come in, and you don’t always have to pull from one or the other, and each type, I think one of the easiest ways to kind of figure out if you’re stuck between two types, other than just reading about them, is reading where the types go when they’re like, in health…

Lo: This is the coolest part.

Jamie: Yeah, where they go when they’re in health or growth versus where they go in stress. So, a type 2 when they’re in health and growth go – and someone asked me, Liv actually asked me, “So do you change types?” and the answer is no, like you’re not becoming this other type.

Lo: Like the root of you stays the same, yeah.

Jamie: Right. You’re just exhibiting – your healthiest type exhibits characteristics of X type, and your unhealthiest self exhibits the bad characteristics of this type. So, in health, the 2s exhibit the best characteristics of 4s, which is kind of individualism, taking care of themselves, being in touch with their emotions, but not being needy, and prioritizing themselves, because 2s sometimes have a hard time doing that. Yeah. So, that’s where the health comes in for 2s, whereas the stress, the bad characteristics of an 8 is like, I very much exhibit this when I’m in stress, is sort of like the flying off the handle, like I’m a big yeller when I’m fighting, and that’s like…that is an unhealthy characteristic of an 8, and there are definitely – I don’t want anyone to get this misconstrued, there are unhealthy and healthy characteristics of every single type, like 2s at their unhealthiest are like as needy as shit.

Lo: That’s kind of a little more of a spectrum, right?

Jamie: Right, yes. 2s at their unhealthiest are as needy as shit, they can be manipulative, they do a lot of the murder syndrome, it’s like, “But look at all of the things I did for you. Don’t you appreciate me?” That kind of thing. Like, we can obviously get into this is another episode. Yeah, same, of course. Like, you can just…that’s the reason that the enneagram is so cool, because you like are reading these things, and you’re like, “Ugh! I’ve done that! That’s gross! This is so unhealthy.”

Lo: Which is true, you’re right, it’s like a self-awareness thing, where you’re like, “Oh, okay, that’s not a cute quality of mine. Let’s dial that back.”

Jamie: Right, and that’s why it’s really helped me, like learning my types, my friend’s type, Ben’s type, my sister’s type. It makes me understand where people are coming from better, and the way my therapist – not about the enneagram, but in general, she says it helps me understand the reality of people, where it’s like, you’re allowed to be surprised by something someone does one time, and that’s it.

Lo: Right, it’s like an empathy thing, where you can be like – you can immediately put yourself in their shoes a little bit if you know, like, “Okay, I’m not going to question why you’re doing it.”

Jamie: Well, what she said was like – I mean, when I complain about things or when I’m talking to her about things, she’s like, “You’re expecting so and so to change when like there’s no reason for you to expect that. Like, you know that this is their reality and this is how they’re going to react to something, so you’re allowed to be surprised one time, and then after that, there is no like, “Oh so and so should do this,” or “They should have done this,” like, yeah, maybe, but you know they’re not going to, so live with the reality of them and move on with your life, because you’re not changing that. That’s not your job.

Lo: I love that. You’re allowed to be surprised one time. I’m going to like literally going to write that down.

Jamie: Yeah, it’s really good, and she always comes back to that and will be like, “Well, this is the reality of so and so. Like, why is this news to you? This shouldn’t be news to you. It’s not news to me.” 

Lo: Right, wow, I love that.

Jamie: So, that’s the very, very, very basic overview. Let’s bring it back to our roots.

Lo: Bring it back to the root. What are you reading right now?

Jamie: So, I am reading, because of your recommendation, “The Death of Vivek Oji,” and when I say reading, I mean like I started it last night.

Lo: But isn’t it so good immediately?

Jamie: So good.

Lo: I started that – I finished it in less than 24 hours, like two sittings.

Jamie: Nice.

Lo: I was obsessed. I was like, “Okay, I’ve got to know what’s happening.”

Jamie: The writing is incredible.

Lo: Their writing is…I’m like, how did I not know about this author? If you follow them on Instagram too, just like goals.

Jamie: I haven’t.

Lo: Goals.

Jamie: Really?

Lo: They are so…I don’t know. Their posts are just like, so fucking rad. You’re like…it makes you love them even more for how great of a writer they are.

Jamie: I just posted this today, but our September J Lo reads pick is their first novel, it’s their debut novel, “Fresh Water,” which I surprised Lo with on Thursday. I had two book choices, and she was like, “Okay, you just pick and surprise me.”

Lo: I’m so thrilled for this surprise.

Jamie: Yeah, I’m pumped.

Lo: Apparently it’s very different, too. It’s very different from Vivek Oji.

Jamie: Yeah, that’s what you said, so it’ll be a good…

Lo: By this point, they’re an instant-buy offer for me, so I’m just going to read whatever they fucking write. Like, I would read their grocery list at this stage, to be honest. It’s like, what are you buying?

Jamie: Are you listening? Post your grocery list.

Lo: Right. Like, are you down to post your grocery list? I will just copy it, essentially. That’s what you’re doing, I’m doing it.

Jamie: Yep. Okay, so what are you reading?

Lo: So, actually I just finished, so this could be fun, maybe you could help me pick what I read next.

Jamie: Yeah, I would love it.

Lo: I just finished the book called “The Memory Police” by Yoko Ogawa.

Jamie: I’ve never heard of it.

Lo: Yeah, I love Japanese authors. I like for whatever reason, I love…like have you read “1Q48” before?

Jamie: “1Q84”? Nu-uh.

Lo: It’s a thick…I like big books and I cannot lie.

Jamie: I’m scared of that.

Lo: You might be a little bit afraid. It’s huge. Anyways, it was really good. It’s kind of like a dystopian, Orwellian, like about…a little bit about surveillance and covers like memory and loss, and it’s just like this, whoa. So, it was really interesting. I can’t say I loved, like, the ending, because I wanted it to have a happier ending, but…

Jamie: Is it worth me to read? Like, should I put it on my list?

Lo: You should read it and see if you like it, because I was like…when I saw it…

Jamie: I like the dystopian-type stuff.

Lo: Yeah, you might like it. It made me think about things, like it definitely made me consider quite a bit, so I sat with it, and it wasn’t huge. Anyways, it was a good book, I really liked it.

Jamie: Okay, so what’s on your list for potentials?

Lo: Well, I don’t know. So, in reading this Chani Nicholas book about astrology, she uses – in her writings, she uses a couple famous people’s charts, and one of whom is Maya Angelou, and Maya and I share an exalted sun in Aries, and so I felt this like grand connection to her.

Jamie: Is exalted, is that like in the ninth house?

Lo: Yes. Well, exalted, yes, in the ninth house…well, my sun is exalted and it’s in the ninth house. So, when the sun is exalted and it’s in the ninth house, it’s the house of god. It’s like, wild. So, like, I like, “Whoa!” That’s a lot of pressure for me. 

Jamie: Right.

Lo: But, Maya and I share this, which is kind of like, wild. So, I got a little bit like inspired, and I was like, “Oh, maybe I should just read “I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings,” again, but you know, it’s memoir, it’s a little heavier.

Jamie: When was the last time you read it?

Lo: High school?

Jamie: Oh, a long time ago.

Lo: A long ass time ago.

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: Oh, I’m going to totally digest it totally differently, I’m sure.

Jamie: Oh, for sure. 

Lo: And like take different things from it, so. But that was one, but then I was like, do I need something lighter? Like, I don’t know, I thought of like a light…so, I don’t know. What should I read?

Jamie: I’m trying to think of like, what is lighter that’s even on my shelf. I have not actually…

Lo: [unclear 00:56:43], should I read that?

Jamie: It’s a…yeah, I mean, like that is lighter in the sense that like, it’s not…you know it’s fake. It’s also dystopian, but…

Lo: Oh, it is another dystopian. Okay, I didn’t know that.

Jamie: It is literally…when people say it’s a mix between “The Hunger Games” and “The Handmaid’s Tale,” that’s exactly what it is.

Lo: Oh, that’s kind of rad, I like that. I did like “The Handmaid’s Tale.”

Jamie: Yeah, but it’s very dystopian. Yeah, so like if you’re not trying to read another dystopian, then I would say no. I’m like looking at my…I don’t even have any light reads right now.

Lo: I have Chloe Brown, I did buy, “Get a Life, Chloe Brown.” But, here’s my thing…

Jamie: Oh, I’ve heard that’s like the steamiest steam.

Lo: I know, but when I’m choosing books, it’s so bad. Now, I’m like, “what is bookstagram talking about?” and I try to go the opposite direction…

Jamie: Right.

Lo: …because I’m like, I’m kind over it. It’s been really hard, but I’m like, okay, but if I need something light…

Jamie: So, that was one of the questions, one of the questions like that we kind of got when I said, “What would you like to hear on the podcast?” One of the questions was, “How do you guys pick your next read?” and, bookstagram initially was like, “Oh, this is how I’m finding it,” and now I’m like, “As long as it’s not on here, I’ll read it.”

Lo: Me too. Same. I’m like, “God, I can’t fucking post a review for ‘Get a Life, Chloe Brown,’ like everyone is, like I can’t.”

Jamie: Well, and that was the reason it took me so long to read, “The Girl with the Louding Voice.” It was our book club – my in real life book club pick for August, and it was amazing and it was incredible, but I was like, “The hype this thing is getting, I don’t ever want to touch it.” And like, that’s so fucking stupid, but…

Lo: No, I’m so afraid of bookstagram hype. So afraid.

Jamie: Right. Like we will cross out a book if it’s becoming too popular on bookstagram, because we want to bring attention to books that aren’t. I mean, “Men We Reaped” was written in 2013, “Americanah” was written in 2013.

Lo: Let’s just put on the record right now, Jamie was the one that told bookstagram about “The Prettiest Star,” so don’t get it fucking wrong, okay? It’s everywhere now. And, it’s everywhere, and guess what? Not to spoil, we may or may not be interviewing Carter on our podcast, so, get ready.

Jamie: He’s just the best.

Lo: He loves us, and we love him.

Jamie: Yeah. So, yeah, we really try and steer away from like the popular bookstagram books. I don’t know, it’s probably the healthy side of us, like the 4-ness, the uniqueness, we have to be different.

Lo: We do. It’s a very real thing. It’s a very real pull for me, especially, and it’s like…because it feels – sometimes bookstagram feels so homogenous.

Jamie: Yeah, for sure.

Lo: And it’s like, yeah. I’m not about that life.

Jamie: Okay, last thing to end for episode one. What did you pre-order for September? What is your most anticipated pre-order for September?

Lo: So, I have two. I have two.

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: One is “Anxious People” by Frederik Backman.

Jamie: Yep.

Lo: And also, “Transcendant Kingdom” by Yaa Gyasi, probably my next auto-buy author. What about you? What did you order?

Jamie: So, I have a bunch, but like the one that I’m definitely most excited about, and let me make sure I have the name correct, “Black in the Middle: An Anthology of the Black Midwest,” and it’s by Terrion L. Williamson, she’s a professor at University of Minnesota. She does African-American and African studies at Minnesota.

Lo: So cool.

Jamie: And, it’s basically…there’s all this talk, you know, after the 2016 election about how like middle America like was forgotten and like that’s why Trump got elected, and in that discussion, they’re not really discussing black middle America, right? You’re talking about like the rust belt and the factories and all of these things that are these very white things, and so, this book is basically about the black community in the Midwest since the election, so like downtown Chicago, downtown Detroit, and just…and even in more rural areas, like, it’s not like only white people live in rural areas.

Lo: Right. I want to read that one, especially with the political stuff. I love when it’s like recent, a little bit, so we can like unpack.

Jamie: Yeah. I mean, obviously it was written post-2016 election and is released in a few weeks, so it will have a lot of recent…

Lo: Honestly, that’s how I think about everything, right, like it reminds me a little bit of “Hood Feminism,” where we’re talking about feminism, but feminism totally ignores black and brown people, invariably.

Jamie: Right. Well, guys, episode one.

Lo: It was fun! Episode Numero Uno!

Jamie: Thanks for listening, and we’ll talk to you guys soon!

Lo: We’ll see you next time!

Jamie: Bye!

Lo: Bye! 

[END OF RECORDED AUDIO]