002: On Mars Day, Breonna Taylor, Human Software Upgrades and the Moon + Your Period

In Episode 002 we discuss climate change and the fires in California, the frustrating ruling in Breonna Taylor’s case from a legal perspective, when to expect a human software upgrade (thank you, Gwyenth Paltrow), the crazy shit the planets are up to for the last quarter of the year and lladddiieesss… how the moon may affect your cycle. Yep. Cycles on cycles. Also, the enneagram. There is a conundrum happening, you’ll want to stay tuned.

Transcript

[beginning of recorded audio]

[into music]

Jamie: Hello the poddy pod number two! And here we are, because September was a fucking year.

Lo: Yeah, Jamie is drinking fucking wine, and I’m drinking tea. But, it’s also noon for me, so.

Jamie: Yeah, it’s three o’clock here, so we’re pretty close to wine drinking time.

Lo: Three o’clock on a weekend day.

Jamie: Whatever.

Lo: It’s like late afternoon day drinking.

Jamie: Yeah, and it’s a rosè, it’s technically still summer, although I know you do not like that vibe.

Lo: No, it is not. It is not summer.

Jamie: Well, not technically, sorry. Yes, you are correct. Technically it is not still summer, but…

Lo: It’s 82 degrees here today, so. Right, and we’re getting a second heat wave in San Francisco, so…

Jamie: I still have rosè in my fridge, so rosè until it’s gone.

Lo: I mean, in California, we keep rosè in our fridge all year round. 

Jamie: Because you have the same temperature all year round basically, right?

Lo: Fall is in San Francisco, but it still feels…

Jamie: Really? 

Lo: Yeah.

Jamie: What’s like the lowest you get in San Francisco?

Lo: Oh, it’ll get, like at night, 40s, low 50s, like it gets cold.

Jamie: Oh, really?

Lo: Yeah.

Jamie: Ben was trying to tell me that it never changes temperature in California.

Lo: No, I mean, I think he’s thinking of LA.

Jamie: Is that true?

Lo: Like when LA gets a lot of rain, it’s like a weird…yeah. It’s pretty true, because even in the winter, like when I went to school there, even in the winter it would be overcast, but it’s super muggy because the temperature never drops, it’s disgusting.

Jamie: That is really gross. That is not my jam.

Lo: It’s the worst kind of temperature.

Jamie: That’s like his selling point on LA. He’s like, “It’s just like 75 and sunny constantly.” And, the other thing is, if I was picking a west coast city, no offense, I would probably be picking Portland or Seattle over anything in California, but then Carly, our friend, told us that the seasonal depression in the pacific northwest is real because there’s so much rain, and it’s just like…

Lo: See, I always say that I – because San Francisco, relative to a Portland or a Seattle, it definitely does not get as much…it’s like spit rain, like you go to Portland and it’s just kind of misting all the time, like spitting on you.

Jamie: So, are you just like wearing a raincoat all the time?

Lo: Well, yeah, I mean, like a layer….I don’t know, I mean, I’ve obviously never lived there, but it’s overcast a lot of the time. We get a ton of fog, like we’re right by the coast, so we get a lot of those coastal climates, but we do probably get more sun, like we probably do, so I haven’t ever had like a seasonal depression episode, except when the fucking Mars day happened a couple weeks ago, then I definitely did.

Jamie: Uh, yeah. I can’t even – I still can’t believe that was real life.

Lo: Yeah, that I woke up and I was like, “Okay, so, if my circadian rhythm, like my body clock, is fucked, then I’m depressed 100%.” But if there’s some sort of like, if it’s overcast and you can see that the sun is out and it’s like a normal light…

Jamie: Day, right.

Lo: Yeah, like you can tell, but no, no, no, not with Mars day.

Jamie: No, no. That was very scary. I’m glad you guys are like back to normal air quality-ish, like you can be outside.

Lo: Yeah, no, we are, although with a heat wave coming it’s, I guess, making me a little bit nervous.

Jamie: Scary.

Lo: Yeah, you get nervous because you’re like, “Oh…”

Jamie: Are the fires under control?

Lo: I think so. I actually haven’t checked in on it in a while. Yes, like, I mean, we haven’t gotten smoke in like a good week, which is something, so.

Jamie: It freaks me out. That’s like the one natural disaster that has like never really – I’ve never experienced, like I’ve been in areas with hurricanes, I’ve been in areas with tornadoes, no fires.

Lo: Yeah, it’s…I mean, it’s also modern. I mean, it’s like…

Jamie: A newer problem.

Lo: Yeah, it’s a totally new…I mean, wildfires always happened, but the ability to contain them was so different, but like San Francisco, like we’re not…we were two and a half hours from that fire we were getting all the smoke from, where literally ash was raining down on my car. So, we were really far away.

Jamie: That is wild.

Lo: Yeah, so like, I’ve never – I mean, it’s very modern phenomenon, and I didn’t grow up smelling smoke in the air, I learned to smell smoke in the air when I lived in Montana for a couple of summers because there were fires sometimes there, and so like it’s a very weird – like, I’m not even in the position of having to flee a fire situation, but we still…yeah. It’s a very omnipresent fucking natural disaster, I guess is the word.

Jamie: I feel like that’s actually – even though this is a little out of order, I feel like this is a good segue into our “Try Saying that Out Loud Moment,” or yours.

Lo: Well, yeah, and I don’t know why I’m wearing orange because I didn’t think about it.

Jamie: If you can’t see, Lo is in an orange shirt.

Lo: And like a bright orange shirt which literally was what the world looked like two Wednesdays ago.

Jamie: No blazer, but wearing a pearl dissent collar in honor of RBG.

Lo: Always representing.

Jamie: I love her. Yeah.

Lo: In state, man, that’s pretty cool that she got the resting in state.

Jamie: The video…

Lo: I don’t know if people understand how big of a deal that is. I didn’t really either until I like kind of researched it.

Jamie: Read about it. The video that you posted of her trainer doing push-ups in front of her casket…

Lo: Sobbing.

Jamie: Man.

Lo: I know, and then someone’s comment was like, “That is such a special bond, because he literally probably saw her more than members of her family.”

Jamie: Anyone, right.

Lo: And I’m just like, oh my god. So, when I saw him go down for the push-up, I was half expecting him not to be able to get up and have a breakdown, and he didn’t, and I was kind of hoping that he would have like a…which is so fucked up of me, like, just have an emotional release because I want to release with you, type of mentality. So, my “Try Saying that Out Loud,” it’s not an obvious one; I had to think about it. But, I definitely had like a couple of weeks where my mood was very somber, like it was a very dark mental state, and it was because of the fires. I mean, like, existing in California, I was so far away from them, but I was still – not the benefits, not reaping the benefits, but I was seeing the effects of them from so far away, and you’re in this – we’re in this climate, for lack of a better word, now, where our president is literally denying science, and to exist in this space of the coast is literally on fire, and being in this world where you know that the current administration is doing nothing about it…

Jamie: And telling you to sweep the forest floors.

Lo: Right, or they’re like literally enacting legislation that reverses what Obama had been trying, you know, it’s just…so, I entered a very dark mental state because it was just like, I want to shake every single person who denies climate change and be like, how…

Jamie: Are you watching?

Lo: Right. Do you not fucking see people running for their fucking lives? Like, two years ago in the paradise – I think it was the paradise fires, people literally like, cars in the middle of the street that had been trying to escape the fire…

Jamie: Just burned.

Lo: Right. So, it was a very dark period, but I think after I kind of came out, then the Mars day happened, and it was – people should just look up pictures if they haven’t seen them. It was....

Jamie: Unbelievable.

Lo: It was like 8pm all day, it was like this orange glow. Actually, what was so weird about it is we had terrible air quality, and then that day came, and because of the way the light was filtering and the cloud cover, it was actually – the air was the cleanest it had been in weeks.

Jamie: It was like preventing the ash from coming through.

Lo: Right, it was preventing the ash and all that stuff from coming down, but you look outside and you’re like, “It’s the apocalypse, I’m not fucking going out there.”

Jamie: We’re dying. Right.

Lo: But, I actually should have been fucking opening the windows, because days later, it was like ash, air quality was terrible, but I was so upset about these fucking fires, and then I look around my house, and I’m like, the privilege I have of like having a home, being able to close my fucking windows and not heat, at least San Francisco is not so hot that you’re like dying of heat in your home. There’s some areas that literally it’s so hot if your windows are not opened – are you going to die of heat or are you going to die of smoke, what’s going to come sooner? So, I’m like, okay, I can exist, I’m in my home, and I’m fucking sitting in a mess of air purifiers that I could order on Amazon. So, I was just sitting so deep in my privilege, like, okay, this can mentally – I’m not trying to discount that it was a mental mind fuck.

Jamie: Right, for sure.

Lo: But, I’m like, okay, out of all the situations, I need to like, not let this get me down, right, like I need, once again, to vote or do whatever the fuck I can for the people that don’t have the privilege that I have of sitting here.

Jamie: Right, like your feelings are valid, but at the same time, you acknowledge how lucky you are in that situation.

Lo: 100%. I’m like, not dying of heat, and I have fucking air purifiers and I don’t have to go outside if I don’t want to, you know?

Jamie: Right, like you don’t have to go to work.

Lo: Right, like some people have to go.

Jamie: Have to leave the house, right.

Lo: Right. So, it was a moment, for sure.

Jamie: Yeah, I actually had to think about mine too a little bit, sort of. So, we’re recording this a few days after the indictment came out against one of the officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s murder, and I’ve been sitting with this for a little bit, and I have like a perspective as a lawyer that’s a little bit different than most, and it’s just like by reading the actual laws in Kentucky, and also I did a lot of background research on what the narratives surrounding what happened are versus what actually happened. There’s a ton of narratives around…

Lo: Misinformation everywhere. No one even knows.

Jamie: There’s a lot of misinformation. I’m absolutely devastated about the whole story, it’s just like…it’s awful, but what is the worst part of it is that it’s actually the Kentucky laws that allowed this indictment to happen, or the way that the indictments happened.

Lo: It’s the way the grand jury works, right?

Jamie: Sort of. So, part of it is the Kentucky self-defense laws. The first problem is that they got this warrant in the first place, because the warrant was based on horrible misinformation, and had they had the right information, they wouldn’t have been able to get this warrant, because the warrant was for Breonna Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, like they were looking for her ex-boyfriend, and I don’t remember how long they had been broken up, but they had been broken up for enough time that these narcotics agents should have been able to figure out…

Lo: At least a few months, right?

Jamie: At least. They should have been able to figure out that there was no reason that he was going to be at her apartment, like there was no reason, and ultimately, he was arrested a few minutes later in a couple separate sting, like the same night. So, if they had been…

Lo: So, clearly it was a miscommunication of the fucking police force, like if you have a sting operation, why…what’s happening?

Jamie: Correct. So, the fact that they were able to get this warrant and no one is talking about this judge that granted this warrant, which is like, another big problem, so that’s a problem. Number two, you have the cops that show up in the apartment in the middle of the night. Why are you showing up in the middle of the night? Why does this have to happen at whatever time it was, two in the morning? Why is that necessary? You have most of the neighbors saying that they didn’t hear them announce. No one is disputing that they knocked, because Breonna’s boyfriend said he heard the knocking. Only one neighbor heard them say “cops,” everyone else was like, “we didn’t hear anything,” and if they were apparently saying it for minutes, someone is going to hear them say “police.” Someone is going to hear that.

Lo: Right.

Jamie: So, under Kentucky law, her boyfriend has the right – he legally owned a gun – he has the right to defend himself on an intruder coming into his house, which is why he shot. Unfortunately, so did the cops, and like, that’s…

Lo: And the cops are saying the knocked, so there’s no reason why it would be like, a full intruder because we warned them we were coming. Is that their thing?

Jamie: Correct. That’s exactly what they’re saying. So, the two cops that shot are saying, “We’re protected under self-defense,” which, when you look at it initially, you’re kind of like, “Okay, yeah, one of the cops was shot by the bullet” I mean, he didn’t die, but I think he was shot in the shoulder or leg or something like that.

Lo: Yeah, but okay, so then I was listening – sorry to interrupt you, but I was listening to one of the…I think the boyfriend’s attorney was on some CNN show, and he was saying that - they were basically saying that the bullet was tied to the boyfriend’s gun because it was a Glock whatever, it was some sort of specific gun, and that no other law enforcement officials had that as a carry weapon. But, apparently that’s not true.

Jamie: Interesting.

Lo: Apparently his attorney is like, “No.” And, the fucking police – the cop that did get charged, this is something that blew my fucking mind, the one that did get charged for shooting into the neighbor’s apartment or whatever, he fled, and they could not find him for multiple hours, and he’s the one that apparently has the gun that matches, and he admits to kind of – if I’m remembering correctly, he admits to, I guess if the guns go off, there are like flashes or something, so he said he was responding to flashes, and that’s why he was shooting, but then it’s like, okay, but, her boyfriend only shot one time, so why are you firing?

Jamie: One time. He’s responding to his own partner’s flashes.

Lo: Right, exactly.

Jamie: Well, and, you know, the evidence showed like, their apartment was littered with bullets, just littered with bullets.

Lo: And Breonna got shot six fucking times. She didn’t have a fucking weapon on her. This is where the narrative really got annoying for me, is I was like, okay, so everyone is talking – we’re focusing on the wrong thing. Like, her boyfriend, A, yes had the right to shoot, maybe shouldn’t have, whatever, but he had the right to, and…

Jamie: Shot once.

Lo: And they just kept shooting, not even at him.

Jamie: Right, and that’s the thing Ben and I talked about. It’s like, so how bad of a shot are you that…

Lo: That you are shooting someone seven times.

Jamie: Right. Well, that your shot in self-defense is at the person without a weapon and that the whole apartment is just littered in bullets, a different person is shot seven times. Like literally, they said picture frames, the walls, the whole apartment was just littered in bullets.

Lo: There’s no body cam. We have no…

Jamie: So, that was the big thing that Ben and I talked about when we were talking about this, because the way the laws are written is very ambiguous, and does not give really the grand jury enough, necessarily, to charge them with murder because of this self-defense, you obviously had the argument of, how is it self-defense if you’re shooting 12 times, you do have the initial shot. So, you really get into the weeds.

Lo: Totally.

Jamie: But, Ben’s thing was, A, it should be illegal for any cop in the United States to not be wearing a body cam, it should be a felony.

Lo: At least audio.

Jamie: Right. Honestly, I think video. I mean, it just takes out any question. It just takes out any question.

Lo: Right, but at least if there are states that are like, resistant, at least fucking give me audio, in the fucking least.

Jamie: And then, Ben said, if you don’t have your body cam on and someone dies while you’re pursuing them, that becomes felony murder, because felony murder is if someone is killed during the commission of a felony. That’s what felony murder is. So, Ben was like, it should be felony murder to have someone die while you are trying to pursue them if your body cam is off, because that can clear you 100%.

Lo: That is negligence.

Jamie: Right. That can clear you 100%, and I was reading about it, and apparently these were undercover narcotics agents, and in that department, they normally don’t wear body cams. I was trying to figure out why there wasn’t a body cam. Except, I don’t know which officer, I don’t know all of their names, there is a picture of one of the officers very shortly after, and he has a body cam on him, like it’s clearly up here.

Lo: Let’s also backtrack – we don’t have to talk about this for very much longer, but also backtrack to what you said earlier, and you were like, there was another sting operation happening.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: So, like, how many sting operations can we possibly have to try to catch the same person? Clearly, there’s an issue identifying the person you’re going after, and that is extreme negligence on the part of the police force. It’s like, let’s have some checks and balances in place, like my god.

Jamie: Right, right.

Lo: Like, even if no one had died in this situation.

Jamie: What are we doing?

Lo: Right, like that’s insane.

Jamie: Right, so the whole thing was basically just like, not only obviously did the police system fail Breonna in the way that this sting operation went down, but like in this specific case, it’s the legal system that failed, and it’s not necessarily – I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but it’s not necessarily the grand jury or the district attorney in this case that failed her. They can only do so much with the laws and the one cop that was indicted, and to your point, that makes it an interesting point – if the cop that was indicted had the same gun as her boyfriend and you can’t match the ballistics, that’s a big problem, because the only reason, from what I understand, that he was charged with three counts of wanton endangerment is he was blindly shooting into Breonna’s apartment, the blinds were down and he was shooting into the glass sliding door, so he had no line of sight, at all, and it went through her – allegedly went through her apartment and into the apartment where there was a couple and a young child, which is where the three counts of wanton endangerment come from; however, if one of his bullets had hit Breonna, he would have been charged with murder. There is no question. Or, some version of murder, whether it’s manslaughter or negligent homicide.

Lo: It just seems negligent to me to also like, why are you shooting blindly?

Jamie: 100%. I mean, he was fired and I know like the police department – and I can’t remember who else, but multiple entities have come out and spoken out against that, saying that was clearly so against policy, there was just no reason for him to have done that.

Lo: And okay, I get it, you’re shooting into…there’s the scene of the crime, and you’re shooting into it…

Jamie: But, you have like no line of sight.

Lo: But, okay, also, I’m sorry, fuck all the way off with your wanton endangerment of the neighbor’s apartment, like you also were fucking endangering Breonna Taylor who was innocent in all of this.

Jamie: Her boyfriend!

Lo: I know, and I keep on coming back to it, and I’m like, the women – so many black women are implicated in these crimes, are incarcerated, because they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That would never fucking happen to a white woman. 

Jamie: Nope.

Lo: Never. They’d be like, “Oh, you’re boyfriend is a bad seed,” or whatever, “You’re fine,” whatever.

Jamie: Well, I also – and, like, the bullet ended up in the apartment of the neighbor, but my understanding was that it went through Breonna’s apartment to get to the neighbors, is my understanding, that could be wrong.

Lo: Like, what’s the first apartment?

Jamie: Right, so I don’t understand why he isn’t charged with five counts of wanton endangerment, because he did endanger the boyfriend and Breonna while it was going through that apartment. I don’t get why it matters that it just landed in the other apartment. So, I’ve been sitting with that a lot, because it’s like, not only do you have, like just in general, the police failing black people, you have the laws as written, where even if the district attorney wanted to do something, this, from my understanding, seems to be the most he could do, and I was listening to The Daily episode kind of explaining the legal justification and the reporter that was talking to the host, Michael Barbaro, was saying, “I have spoken with so many legal experts and they were like, ‘this is exactly what we expected to happen once they determined the ballistics, that the officer that was outside did not kill Breonna, that it was one of the officers inside.’ Once they determined that, they were like, ‘this is exactly what we expected to be the case based on the laws in Kentucky.’” And like, that just shouldn’t be a thing. That’s obviously going to disproportionately affect black people, like it just is.

Lo: Yeah, 100%.

Jamie: Because you have the cops disproportionately arresting and going after black people, so like, that’s just going to affect them way more. So, I’ve been sitting with that for a while, and Ben and I had a very long discussion about it, and it’s just fucked, there’s no way around it. September has been the fucking worst, it really has.

Lo: It’s a different flavor of fuckery. It’s just, you know, this month actually went by really fast for me, I told you that.

Jamie: Yeah, but it’s a different flavor, you’re right.

Lo: Yeah, it’s a different flavor of what – like at every turn, you’re like, “2020, what else you got?”

Jamie: Literally.

Lo: It’s just a new episode of Jumanji.

Jamie: Right, exactly. For me, it was a really bad month medically. I got poison ivy in August, which I don’t even remember if we talked about on the pod.

Lo: Probably not.

Jamie: Probably not.

Lo: You still had it when we last recorded.

Jamie: Right, sure. So, we were in the mountains in the middle of August, and I somehow contracted poison ivy, we think one of the dogs got it, but I had to go on prednisone, which is like the worst fucking medication that’s ever existed, I hate it so much. It makes me feel like shit, like I feel terrible, I look terrible, the whole thing. So, I went on a 12-day taper, and then the poison ivy came back. So, they were like, “We’ve got to make sure we kick it this time,’ and they put me on a 16-day taper. I was basically on it for a month, and I’ve been off of it for a few – like, every day that I’ve been off of it, I’ve been feeling better.

Lo: I can tell, yeah.

Jamie: And, in the interim, I got a kidney infection. So, like, and then I was on different antibiotics, and it’s just been all…

Lo: Isn’t it all…I mean, I don’t know how prednisone affects you, but do you think you became more susceptible? Because they say when you’re on antibiotics…

Jamie: It’s possible, yeah.

Lo: …like, your body is like so, like it really fucks with you, antibiotics do.

Jamie: Right. It’s possible, and theoretically, prednisone makes you more thirsty, it makes you more hungry and more thirsty, but it’s possible I was drinking less water because I felt like shit. I don’t really know, and if that’s the case, that’s obviously going to make you more susceptible to a kidney infection. So, I’m on the up-and-up. We’re doing much better. 

Lo: Right. So, that’s why you’re having wine. You deserve it.

Jamie: I haven’t had wine in…I don’t even know how long, because like, you can’t drink while you have a kidney infection, and I wasn’t really drinking it while I was on prednisone because I like didn’t feel great, so…here we are.

Lo: Yes.

Jamie: Drinking wine.

Lo: Drinky drinky. 

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: Well, those are some pretty heavy “Try Saying That Out Louds” for not having any…

Jamie: Right, for not having any this month.

Lo: We talked for like, 35 minutes. 

Jamie: Yep.

Lo: I want to talk about another thing. So, you know me, I love listening to like – I don’t want to call them like spiritual podcast, but there is a podcoast – podcoast – podcast host, and his name is Jay Shetty, and he actually was a monk for a time.

Jamie: No way.

Lo: Yeah, he’s really cool. He has a book that just came out that I’m really excited to read, but he has really cool people on, like just…he’ll bring on like Christian Bell, and Gwyneth Paltrow was on his podcast, and you know me, like I am a self-proclaimed very Goop-y person, it’s privileged as fuck.

Jamie: Oh my god, I really hope you and Ben have a conversation about Goop. There is nothing Ben hates more than Goop.

Lo: It’s ridiculous. I mean, I’m the first person to be like, this is so fucking insane, and she’s…I mean, basically the target market is wildly wealthy, but not me even, like wildly fucking wealthy people that can buy the most ridiculous shit.

Jamie: Do you think her skincare is good?

Lo: I’ve used a couple of the products, I like it. Yeah, it’s not bad. It’s not like…I would choose other brands before hers, and I don’t buy the clothes. I mean, honestly, I started…

Jamie: Oh, I didn’t even know there were clothes.

Lo: She has a line, like G-label or whatever, which is fine, whatever. But, no, I actually started getting into it, because they have great content actually, and they speak to a lot of cool medical professionals, like I reviewed a book earlier in the year called “Energy Medicine,” and I heard about this…

Jamie: Oh, I remember that.

Lo: …woman on her podcast. So, they have like cool, anyways, so that’s why I’m into it. But, I just think generally, like Gwyneth is kind of an interesting person, I’m like a little fascinated by it. So, this podcast, I was listening to it…

Jamie: She’s an enigma.

Lo: She is, she’s so interesting, and this like conscious uncoupling and how that was such a wild thing when she divorced her husband.

Jamie: Such a thing.

Lo: No, but so Jay asked her about that time in her life, and I don’t know, was she in her early – I don’t know how old she is now, she’s in her 40s.

Jamie: I don’t either.

Lo: Yeah, whatever, whenever the divorce happened, she referenced it, and it made me think of you, which is why I immediately wrote it down to talk about today. She said that she thinks that every woman in their 40s goes through a, what she calls a “software upgrade.”

Jamie: In their 40s?

Lo: In their 40s. So, then I was like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What if we’re 30. What is happening?”

Jamie: What if we’re almost 33 and we’re going through a software upgrade?

Lo: Right, what if we’re just like in our 30s? Yeah, but that’s when she was like, “I just kind of woke up one day. I woke up in my early 40s and I was like, I’m not living my life the way I want to be living it,” and I almost had like a mental breakdown, because I was like, I feel like I’ve had that already. 

Jamie: Right. Have you met us, Gwyneth?

Lo: Right, do you understand? Because we could talk about this all day, but like, I worked in technology marketing for almost like, almost a decade, was having, you know, like my husband is very passionate about what he does, and it’s inspiring to me, because I want to love what I do as much as he loves what he does, so I quit my job, took basically a year off, then kind of fell into this interior design space, which is super interesting and creative for me, but then this year, health crisis, not even half of yours, but health crisis in a variety of aspects, leading me into this holistic nutrition angle, which I’m so excited about.

Jamie: I am so pumped.

Lo: But, I’ve like changed my life.

Jamie: The pivot queen of all pivot queens.

Lo: I’ve changed my life once a year for the last three years, and I’m like, okay, Gwyneth, I cannot have this at 40 again, like, please don’t tell me…like, what am I supposed to do?

Jamie: You’re like, “I need to stop upgrading. I’ve got to find the upgrade that lasts for a couple of years.”

Lo: Like, this isn’t like Apple software development, where like we’re always in…I’m like, this is unsustainable.

Jamie: You’re like, I don’t need an upgrade every minor bug, I just need…

Lo: Right, right. 

Jamie: I mean, I feel like that’s exactly…I feel like that’s where both of us are right now, like you have gone, like you said, from tech to interior design, and now into holistic nutrition, which like, I’m so pumped about, I’m so pumped for you to coach my life, it’s going to be so great. It’s going to be amazing. And like with me, I wouldn’t have said, like I was a pivot queen, because I’m not, like I’m generally not, I have my life sort of mapped out, I went straight from college to law school, and it didn’t go exactly as planned, but I moved home and began practicing law immediately, and moved to Charlotte, and began practicing law in North Carolina after I retook the North Carolina bar, so I’ve just been practicing law for like…

Lo: And you knew you wanted to be a lawyer since you were like little, right?

Jamie: Right. Yeah, I’ve wanted to be a lawyer for so long, and like it literally started – I’ve told this story so many times, but my mom used to, when my dad was like still working at an office that required him to wear like business attire, like a suit and tie every day, my mom used to iron his shirts. I feel like that’s such an old school thing.

Lo: That’s so cute.

Jamie: Yeah, she would literally…so, she would turn on TV and have all of his shirts, and she would iron all of his shirts. That feels like so long ago because now I’m like, they definitely dry clean all of their clothes. But, she used to iron his shirts, and I would sit in her room and she’d be watching Matlock on TV, and when I was little, that’s…I would just sit with her on the weekend and watch Matlock, and that’s like my first memory of wanting to be a lawyer, which is such a…watching TV is such a weird thing, but it like never went away, it just became a thing, and then as I got older, you hear the thing that’s like, “You’re so good at arguing, you should be a lawyer.” That’s the worst reason to be a lawyer, like don’t...

Lo: The worst reason. You’ve got to like to fucking read is what my take of it is.

Jamie: You have to like to read, you have to be a good writer. There’s so much…there’s very few attorneys, honestly, that argue, like Ben doesn’t argue.

Lo: Right, and it’s about the strength of your arguments, not the actual arguing, so I hate that.

Jamie: Correct. It’s so stupid.

Lo: Right, like no.

Jamie: So, when I got laid off of my job in April because of COVID, which I was very much not expecting. A partner had just given his notice a few months…or a few weeks before, he like unrelated to everything, he went to a different firm and I was like, “Oh, perfect, this is job security.”

Lo: Right, like you’re thinking it’s a positive.

Jamie: Right, incorrect, incorrect. I mean, part of that was just because the firm itself wasn’t doing as well. It wasn’t so much about our team, necessarily, but I was the newest Charlotte associate, so it like just…there’s no way it wasn’t going to be me. So, my year anniversary would have been this June, so I was still only like nine months in. There was just no way. But, so then that led to like, what am I going to do? Am I going to start my own business? Am I going to be a wedding planner? Which, like, we quickly learned, I am not doing. Ben made me go through, and he’s very good at this kind of stuff. He made me go through a pro and con list of what are the things that are really important to you? How much do you value going into an office? Which, I would have said not that much, until I haven’t fucking left my house. I think I value going into an office part-time, a lot.

Lo: Part-time, for sure.

Jamie: Like, I like the flexibility of being able to work from home on days that I need to, but I like people. So, at least part-time, a lot. How much do you value a stable salary? A lot. Like, which when you start your own business, impossible. Not a thing. If you become – even if you become a famous…even if I’m a famous podcaster, that’s not a stable income.

Lo: So many start-up costs. So many start-up costs.

Jamie: Right. And, there’s no way to know how much money you’re going to make at any given month, day, year, whatever. So, he was like, stable income, how much does that matter to you? A lot. How much does it matter to you that you’re doing something incredibly intellectual simulating? And, I was like, medium, like, I was like…

Lo: He’s like wedding planning, not it.

Jamie: Right, but, I was like, he’s like, basically, are you really trying to solve the world’s problems? Do you want to do busy work? Do you need to be somewhere in between? And I was like, somewhere in between. If I’m stressed out every day, that’s not a good fit.

Lo: No.

Jamie: And I imagine there are some legal jobs where you’re stressed out every day, because the work that you’re doing is so intense. There were a couple – I can’t remember what the other things were, but basically he made me go through this list, and it was actually super helpful because what it came down to was that like, starting my own business, at least right now, not the right fit. I wanted a stable income. And, if you’re starting your own business, you’re working by yourself a lot. I’m actually not that good at it. I just worked a temp job for the last three months and I did a contract position with a company here that was involved in my medical malpractice background, and it was like the perfect sort of stop gap, I was paid well, and I was doing work that it didn’t really stress me out, because A, I was temporary, and it just wasn’t like, any sort of life or death work, basically, so there was no like real stressful element to it because you knew that whatever happened, nothing major was on it, if that makes sense.

Lo: Yeah, totally.

Jamie: So, it was a good fit in that way, but it was also boring. So, there’s just so much trying to figure out where I would pivot. Ben thinks PR would be a really good fit for me.

Lo: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: And, apparently a lot of lawyers pivot to PR if they leave the legal profession.

Lo: It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it makes sense.

Jamie: You have to be good at writing, at least litigation attorneys, good at speaking, so that makes sense, but PR firms aren’t necessarily apt to just like hire someone who is seven years’ attorney experience, no PR experience.

Lo: I wonder if there’s like an angle where you work for someone that does PR – like, where your legal background is really helpful to them.

Jamie: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Lo: Like, their client – you know what I mean? That could be kind of interesting, like PR for a doctor who…something, I don’t know, it doesn’t even need to be specific in the medical space, but it could be interesting.

Jamie: Right, no, that makes a lot of sense, and like, it’s just been a really interesting process as we try to figure out what makes the most sense. So, yeah, we are the pivot queens. I mean, you’re now in holistic nutrition, and who knows what I’m going to be doing.

Lo: And, who knows what’s going to happen at the age of 40, apparently, according to Gwyneth Paltrow.

Jamie: A new software upgrade.

Lo: Can’t. Nope. Don’t need any more.

Jamie: I don’t need another software upgrade.

Lo: I’m good on the bug fixes. The world, I feel like, needs a software upgrade. I’m down. I’m down for a November software upgrade, but…

Jamie: IOS 14 team, we’re here for it.

Lo: 100%.

Jamie: Although, let’s talk about how great IOS 14 team is, life changing. So good. I’m sorry if you have an Android, but like, IOS 14 has changed the game.

Lo: Well, and, whatever. Android just makes things look kitchier to me, and I may have a reaction to it because I worked at Google and they always want to do – like we got free phones on holidays.

Jamie: Obviously.

Lo: Android. Andd I’m like ugh, it’s so ugly, it’s not aesthetically pleasing, at all, and I’d always give it to my mom.

Jamie: Well, because everything we have is Apple, it just connects so seamlessly, our whole…

Lo: So seamless, and somehow they borrow Android ideas and just make them look prettier.

Jamie: It’s like the rounded edges, all of it. Just all of it. It’s just the best.

Lo: The color. It’s just better for some reason. I don’t know, there’s something about it.

Jamie: There is something about it.

Lo: It’s an experience.

Jamie: So, we’re now into the enneagram/astrology section of the podcast. It seems to be, honestly, everyone’s favorite. It was Ben’s least favorite because he’s Ben.

Lo: Obviously, he’s not the target audience.

Jamie: He’s like, “You guys talked about that for too long, you aren’t experts.” I’m like, “Listen. Everyone else thinks we are, so…”

Lo: No, I’m like, listen, I am not a fucking expert. Everything I’m about to say is Chani Nicholas, and so, there you go. But no, it’s a wild time. If we want to go into the fucking planets…

Jamie: Let’s do it.

Lo: Let’s talk about the planets. So, there’s a lot going on, and again, everything I give credit to Chani Nicholas, because I…

Jamie: And, that is how you pronounce her name?

Lo: Yes, thank you. That was mortifying, that I spent an entire episode…but, it’s so, I even practiced before last episode and I still fucked it up. Anyway, everything is credited to her, basically. I pulled a little bit – there’s another woman named Nadine that I follow on Instagram that has some good insights, but anyway, mainly it’s Chani. But, there’s a lot of shit going on. My take away, to give it a TL;DR, is that the planets are aligning themselves in a way where the world is primed for action and like, turning shit upside down.

Jamie: Well, hello.

Lo: Yes, which can be seen as like, a really positive thing, as in maybe we have the ability to change…

Jamie: A mass change.

Lo: Yes. And all of these Black Lives Matter movements, maybe we’re on a path to actually seeing things come to fruition, or it could be, on the other side of it, is if we don’t act – and that’s the other thing, I mean, I think one thing I really like that Chani does, is she’s like, we’re not – our charts and the astrology and the planets doesn’t mean we can just sit back and…

Jamie: Do nothing. 

Lo: Do nothing, right. It’s like, actually we have to – that power is in the universe, we have to harness it and actually fucking do something with it.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: So, anyway, so that’s kind of my takeaway. Basically, to give you guys a feel, and this episode will come out in the beginning of October, but Mars started – which is the warrior planet, so there’s a lot of conflict, generally, in a Mars’ ruled atmosphere – started retrograding, which basically means the planet doesn’t move backwards, it just really slows down, so it spends a lot of time…I don’t know, whatever. 

Jamie: Oh, interesting.

Lo: Yeah, like it doesn’t really…like, people think it’s like oh, it’s moving backwards, like Mercury, oh, it’s moving that way.

Jamie: It doesn’t.

Lo: It’s not. I think it’s just the speed of the planet, I can check that, but that started on September 9th, and is going through November 14th.

Jamie: That’s a long time.

Lo: Yes, it’s a long time. I think that’s why, because I think the planet really slows down. So, Aries, as a sign, is Mars’ home, like Mars loves to be in Aries, like that’s it’s favorite fucking place, I’m the best self.

Jamie: Well, what about when it’s in retrograde?

Lo: So, when it’s in retrograde, it just intensifies everything, so it’s not bad that Mars is in Aries, it’s just intensifying kind of like…and it’s especially intense because it’s it’s calm sign, basically.

Jamie: Right, right, right.

Lo: But, what’s interesting, so Mars was previously in retrograde in Venus in the beginning of the year, and Venus is the lover planet, so basically, and the way Chani describes it is that at that time, we were kind of re-evaluating – in an intense way, but re-evaluating our relationships to people. Mhm.

Jamie: Cool.

Lo: So, now, it’s a bit more…it’s a bit, like Mars is definitely more of an aggressive, in Aries especially, it’s more of an aggressive, like kind of not specific to just yourself, it’s kind of like let’s make grand sweeping changes, like let’s fight for more people, essentially, is kind of like how you read it.

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: So, it’s just a really powerful time to be not so introspective, but also kind of extroverted with whatever energy we’re possessing on this earth.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: So, everyone is going to struggle with something differently in Mars retrograde, or struggle or not struggle, it might be a really powerful time for some people. So, my sun sign is Aries, so I actually – I’ve struggled in this time, but I actually have turned it kind of into an empowerment thing, so I don’t know if that’s specific to someone who also has their sun sign in Aries, I have no idea.

Jamie: I definitely don’t have mine in Aries. Mine is in…Saturn? I knew at one point, but I don’t remember. So, that makes sense that I’m struggling.

Lo: Yeah, you might struggle, but it also depends on where Mars is.

Jamie: I’m looking to see where mine is, I saved my little chart. Continue.

Lo: So, anyway, on October 1st, which we have not experienced yet.

Jamie: That’s the day this comes out.

Lo: Yeah, there’s a full moon in Aries, and Chani says…

Jamie: What does that mean?

Lo: Chani says that this full moon is very extra, hot and bothered, so basically, it’s intensifying everything that we’ve been feeling for the last month, it’s kind of like intensifying that, but full moons are generally kind of like…

Jamie: Intense, right? Like it’s not like a normal thing.

Lo: Yeah, but like, hopefully – Mars is the warrior planet, hopefully people are kind of turning whatever they were feeling into action in these moments. Then, listen to this, which I’ve been having.

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: So, Mercury, which everyone always talks about being in retrograde, it’s like the key…it’s like the messenger.

Jamie: That’s like the normal one.

Lo: Yeah, it’s like the messenger planet, so key indication, people are like, “Oh, don’t buy a phone when Mercury is in retrograde, or don’t buy anything that’s like a computer because…”

Jamie: Really?

Lo: I guess Mercury kind of is a little bit of a sneaky planet, so it can make you think you’re doing really well, and then kind of pull…like, whatever, I Don’t fucking know.

Jamie: Cool.

Lo: Anyway, it started its pre-retrograde on September 23rd, so there’s a pre-retrograde period, which I didn’t know about, and then the full retrograde starts on October 13th and ends on November 3rd.

Jamie: Cool. The election.

Lo: I know, I just realized. I was waiting for you to…so, basically, this pre-retrograde period of September 23rd and then coming to a fruition on November 3rd, Mercury is the communication planet, so…

Jamie: Wait a minute, so Mercury and Mars, they’re not…they are going to be in retrograde at the same time.

Lo: For a bit, yeah. For a bit at the same time.

Jamie: I’m out of here for that.

Lo: But, I wrote something out about that, actually. So, basically, with Mars in retrograde, since that’s the warrior period, it’s an incredibly powerful time to still make change, like we’re still harnessing this energy to make change because of Mars, but with Mercury, we have to be like, extra careful about our communication. So, Chani’s like, “Cast your fucking ballots early. If you’re mailing…”

Jamie: So, I voted already.

Lo: You did.

Jamie: Yeah, I voted…we got our mail-in ballots, mine is already done, Ben is like…I researched every race and Ben is like, “I want to do it myself,” even though we’re clearly going to vote the same way.

Lo: Right.

Jamie: So, his is still sitting on our kitchen counter, but I voted, and then there’s a way in North Carolina that you can track your ballot, so I signed up for that and I just got a notification this week that my ballot was accepted, so I knew not only did it make it there, but there were no issues, and that’s a huge thing. So, yeah, my ballot has been accepted, I’m very excited, and Ben was actually very good, he said “You need to make sure…” Apparently North Carolina has had an abnormal amount of ballots objected, we’re one of the main reasons…like signatures not matching, something not being filled out.

Lo: Okay, but here’s the thing, I was listening to The View, and one of the big things Trump is touting is that election fraud it such a big – like ballot fraud is so huge. It’s like 0.0001% or something.

Jamie: Right, it’s like not a thing.

Lo: And I’m like, okay, let’s quit the fucking fake news, let’s get facts, people. But, yes, to ballot tracking. I think that most states do it. It’s ballot trax, right?

Jamie: Yeah.

Lo: BallotTrax.com or something?

Jamie: Yeah, T-R-A-X.

Lo: T-R-A-X. So, everyone, track your ballot, it just makes a lot of sense.

Jamie: Yeah.

Lo: Anyway, so that’s basically…vote early, there’s so much going on.

Jamie: Vote early, vote once. 

Lo: Right, and here are some things. I did take a course of hers, because I love her little astrology courses.

Jamie: Chani’s?

Lo: Yeah. So, I wrote down from this course – these are a couple of my bullets: piecing ourselves back together, if that tells you anything about the power of this cycle, this Mercury cycle; long-term plans become a huge focus, and with Mars retrograding at the same time, it’s just an incredibly powerful time to make change and wield our powers for the greater good. So, we just have to basically keep our fucking focus, is basically what I’m taking from it.

Jamie: I hate that so much.

Lo: I know. So, I literally wrote in all caps, “DO NOT GET FUCKING COMFORTABLE.”

Jamie: And the other thing I want to say, PSA about voting early, the earlier you vote, the more guarantee that your vote is going to be counted on election night. Of course, they’re saying anything that is postmarked – I don’t know if it’s the day of election day or the day before, is going to be counted, but we don’t want there to be a question on election day, like that is a bad scenario.

Lo: And, the issues the USPS has been having, like, let’s not fuck with…

Jamie: Get your ballot in early. There is no reason to mess with it. Get it in, and have your vote be counted early, and then you know where your state is sitting early. There’s just no reason to be…

Lo: No reason not to, I agree.

Jamie: No, no reason to be dealing with it.

Lo: Okay, and I have a couple – so many fucking bullets on this because I read so many interesting things, but I won’t go through all of it, we’ll save it for another time, but can we please talk about what I learned about women and our periods, with regards to the planets?

Jamie: Yeah, tell me. I’m so nervous.

Lo: So, I feel like I’ve told everyone about this book, it’s called “Beyond the Pill” by Dr. Jolene Brighten, it changed my life. It’s very – a deceiving title, so it’s like if you’ve ever had a period in your life, read this book, you’ll find something from it. So, our periods – women, all women, our periods and our ovulation cycles are synced with the moon cycles, specifically the full moon and the new moon. This will blow your fucking mind.

Jamie: Is that why it’s 20 days?

Lo: Yes, generally. I think that’s why. And, also, you know how you like – in a sorority, you’re like, “Oh, everyone’s on their period at the same time,” and you think it’s just like, oh, we’re around each other, but like no, if you paid attention to the planet, or like what’s happening to the moon. So, anyways – and, I got off the pill really recently and I read this, and I’m super irregular, but I was like, I’m just going to pay attention to what the moon is doing, or if my period comes, I’m going to look at what’s going on. So, it’s all based upon basically the circadian rhythm and the moon playing a role in how much light and darkness we see.

Jamie: When is the full moon?

Lo: The full moon is October 1st.

Jamie: I get my period next week.

Lo: Okay, so that means you are…oh, you are a red moon goddess.

Jamie: What does that mean?

Lo: That’s great. I aspire to be a red moon goddess. They’re both great. They’re both interesting, but anyways…

Jamie: Is one…one is for the full moon and one is the new moon?

Lo: So, red moon cycle is you get your period on or around the full moon and you ovulate on the full moon. So, new moon is October 16th. So, that basically means…so, the old text says, “A red moon goddess is often a medicine woman, shaman, healer or priestess,” which is like old school.

Jamie: Right, really old school.

Lo: Yeah, so Jolene says, in modern day, think doctors, nurses, CEOs, activists, artists, people who are putting their energy all around movers and shakers, is kind of how she expresses it. Red moon goddesses get shit done and they generally, during their period, focus their energies outward to the world, whereas the white moon cycle, the white moon goddess, I call her “fertile myrtle,” which is a mouthful, but basically that would be period on or around the new moon, ovulate on the full moon. They pull energy inward as a way to nourish themselves and tap into their own intuition, so there’s just an internal strength with kind of a new moon or a white moon goddess.

Jamie: That’s so interesting, as in like, there has to be people that fall in between, right?

Lo: Right, so it can change to. So, you’re not a red moon goddess forever. I mean, you could be, I guess.

Jamie: Interesting. I mean, right now, I’m really regular, because I’ve been on the pill for an unlimited amount of time.

Lo: Right, and you could, so like, for instance, people think you have to be on this kind of white moon cycle to get pregnant, but that’s not true. This doctor had both of her kids when she was on the red moon goddess cycle.

Jamie: Interesting.

Lo: Anyway, but if it’s coming several days before or after a new or full moon, you may be changing cycles.

Jamie: Changing, right, okay.

Lo: Or, you could be governed by other things – like the pill, like hormones, or the planets, who knows, everyone is different.

Jamie: That’s so interesting.

Lo: But, anyway, I just thought that was so wild.

Jamie: That is wild.

Lo: I think I started – I ovulated around the full moon, and then I had my period around the new moon, I mean, a couple of days.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: I am not regular at all right now. But, anyway, I just thought that was really…

Jamie: That is so wild. Are we ready for some enneagram?

Lo: Oh yeah, give it to me.

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: Do you have questions from people? Also, can we just tell everyone that we have no idea what I am? Like, we thought I was a two. So, I’m like breaking the enneagram.

Jamie: I am so stressed by this, I can’t even explain to you.

Lo: I know, Jamie was like, “I feel like I let you down,” and I was like “It’s not that serious.”

Jamie: And, like the other – a huge part of the enneagram is you should, and I say this as I typed half of Instagram, but you really shouldn’t let someone type you, like that’s the truth. The bottom line is you are the best judge of what you are, 100%. Like if you’re like, “No, I’m really this,” that’s what you are. I’m not – or anyone else, no one is able to really discern that. I’m pretty good at it, but the bottom line is if you don’t feel a certain number, you’re not. That’s just what it is. I always tell people, no matter which test you take – and this kind of goes to a couple of questions that I’ve gotten, the best free test, and people will definitely disagree with me on this, and I say it’s the best free test because it’s the one I tell people to take and then send me their results and I kind of parse through, is the Eclectic Energies Enneagram Test, the classic enneagram test, and it is free, and I tell people to screenshot their results to me and send them and I can kind of walk them through, and the best – in general – enneagram test, is the Enneagram Institute test. It costs $12, it says it takes 40 minutes, it really only takes 15 to 20.

Lo: Yeah, mine did.

Jamie: Yes. Two and seven literally have no relation to each other. It’s like not…I can’t even, like that’s why it really blows my mind that it’s potentially that you’re a seven that we’ve mistyped you in such a dramatic way.

Lo: And, I also like…I know you probably got a question about this, but I don’t – I feel like I answered this test, I mean, I also just feel like I took it in a different frame of mind, like I don’t know.

Jamie: And, that matters. That matters for sure. We have a friend that took it, and she said that the way she got her results, she’s actually – she’s a two, but she got two and four at the top, and she’s like, “I just was really depressed when I took this test,” and fours are extremely emotional and can be sort of melancholy, and so she was like, “That makes sense,” and she’s definitely – the way we kind of analyzed it, she was like, “Oh, I’m definitely a two,” so it made sense, but also, two and four are related, so that also makes sense. But, it does matter, the headspace you take it in.

Lo: Okay, yeah. I would say that the headspace I took this most recent one in, I was kind of like…my attitude, I don’t know. I also took the original test the very beginning of quarantine, right?

Jamie: Yeah, it was the beginning of April.

Lo: There was a lot of stuff going on, and I did feel kind of like I was the emotional backbone of a lot of people, and that’s where my energies were going.

Jamie: That matters.

Lo: Like, my dad passed away, worrying about my mom, all of those things, and then now, I’m kind of in this position of…

Jamie: Do you feel more like yourself now?

Lo: I feel healthier now.

Jamie: That matters.

Lo: I don’t know that it’s like a better version of myself, like I can’t speak to that, but  I still feel like I care about people, and I told you, I feel like as a friend, I’m a two, like for my small group…I’m not the person with 7,000 friends, so for my small…I feel like I definitely have that attitude for my friendships.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: But like, generally speaking, I’m a confident person that’s not really concerned with what people think about me. I feel like I used to be that way, but I’m not at all fucking concerned, and I’m very much – and you’re right, I have no kids, I have no other outlet, but I am very much like, “I’m going to do whatever the fuck I want to do.”

Jamie: Right.

Lo: Like, that’s my attitude. 

Jamie: Right. We’re going to do a further deep dive on it, because it really stresses me out.

Lo: This is going to be like a case study, just follow along, everybody. Jamie got me like this fucking giant book.

Jamie: It’s an encyclopedia.

Lo: It’s an encyclopedia, so hopefully I’m going to be able to get to the bottom of it.

Jamie: Yeah, and like, it’s called “The Wisdom of the Enneagram,” it’s basically a book form of The Enneagram Institute. It goes a lot more in-depth, but like, it’s sectioned off by the nine types and you can just read the section if you already know your type, or you can pick your types and read more about…

Lo: I’m excited, because I’m totally the person, like I just want to know, I’m so curious…

Jamie: And, ultimately, it’s going to be you that decides. You’re going to be the one that knows best.

Lo: Right. I mean, that’s a question you got, right, they don’t change very often, do they?

Jamie: No, they don’t, and like, the main reason for that is because a lot of it is based on the basic motivation and the basic fear, and this is something that I have a hard time with, and maybe I just haven’t delved enough into it for me, but a lot of it comes from your childhood and how you were raised and the reason you’re a specific number is because of how you were raised and why you acted a certain way, and I haven’t really figured out why that means I’m a two, and maybe that’s because I’m an older sibling to my sister and the caring, nurturing type…

Lo: Yeah, and I was the youngest, so I’m not.

Jamie: Right, so that might have something to do with it, but the basic theorem and basic motivation stems from your childhood, so the odds of it changing, like aren’t so good, it just means you might have been mistyped for a long time. We have a friend that actually, she said she thought she was a two for a long time, and then all of the sudden, she realized she was a five, and I actually discussed with her recently she might not be a five, she might be a one, and she’s like losing her mind about it, but like, the thing is you were likely this number the whole time, it’s just that you were mistyping and misdiagnosing certain aspects of your personality. So, the odds of you changing over time is not that strong, but this was a question that I got, there are people that I know that have a different type of personality at work versus home, and my next-door neighbor, she’s an eight, and she told me, like when she told me she was an eight, I was like, “Really?” and she was like, “Yeah, I’m definitely an eight, and it’s much more my work personality than it is my friend personality.

Lo: Yes, that’s kind of how I feel.

Jamie: But, she was like, it’s obviously more dominant than my friend personality, because when she’s taking the quizzes and she’s read about it herself, she’s like, “Yeah, I’m an eight.” So, generally speaking, even if you have a different one for work versus for friends or work versus home, there will be a personality that dominates, whether it’s your home or your work, and you’ll be able to discern which one comes out more. So, it probably means that when she’s unhealthy or in stress, the tendencies of the eight come out more than whatever her home personality is, or her home-friend personality is. So, like yes, you can have…

Lo: Kind of two personality types.

Jamie: But, generally speaking, you’re going to be able to discern which one is overarching, if that makes sense.

Lo: Okay. I’m very excited to figure out what my overarching one is.

Jamie: I’m so excited to figure out where you are. So, yeah, I’m looking at some of the questions we got. I talked about the best test, and one main question that I’ve gotten is: can wings shift over time? Yes, 100%. 

Lo: Oh, interesting, but only one – it’s only on either side.

Jamie: Right, right. So, if you’re a two, which is what I am, your wings can only be 1 or 3, so that goes for every number, your wings can only be the number on either side of you. So, they’re only going to shift in that way. People will tell me, “Oh, I’m a two-wing-seven.” You’re not, that’s not a thing. So, basically, you’re either – if you’re a two, you’re either a two-wing-one or a two-wing-three, or, you can be balanced wings if you have…like, none of it is good or bad, it just means it’s who you are. You can pull from both wings equally, you can pull from one or the other more dramatically, it just kind of depends on what your personality is, and that can shift over time, for sure. And, I would say, if you’re new to the enneagram – this is another question that I got, there are a lot of the enneagram experts that will say, “Don’t take a quiz, it could be misleading,” and I could see why that’s the case, because especially if you take a free quiz, there is a – I think it’s called Truity, when people tell me that they’ve taken that quiz, I hate it. The results are very misleading, it comes out in percentages, so it’ll be “Your type two score is 98%. Your type three score is 97%. Your type five score is 92%.”

Lo: That’s so hard, yeah.

Jamie: It’s so hard to actually break it down, and I also don’t think the quiz is very good. So, it really depends on the quiz that you’re taking. I think the Enneagram Institute is a great quiz. I think if you’re willing to pay the $12, I think it’s reliable.

Lo: And Eclectic Energies’ free one.

Jamie: Right, but with that one, what I tell people is I think your type is almost certainly in the top three, but I don’t necessarily…

Lo: Oh, there’s a little more variance.

Jamie: Yeah, I don’t necessarily think whatever you get as the main one is going to be your type.

Lo: I want Alex to take this so bad. 

Jamie: He is a three. It’s not even a question.

Lo: I know, but are you going to poop your pants if he comes back and it’s like not a three?

Jamie: Yes.

Lo: You are going to have a mental breakdown.

Jamie: I’m going to lose my shit.

Lo: I wouldn’t tell you, out of safety for your health.

Jamie: So, my main thing would be if you’re new, I still think you should take a quiz, even though most – some experts would say, “Don’t take a quiz, just read about it.” I think a quiz is a good place to start. A lot of people like quizzes, it’s an easy way to kind of gauge where you are, but know that like, there’s an okay chance that whatever your top one is is like maybe not the exact one, but know that’s it’s probably in your top three.

Lo: I am interested to read that book, because I think it will help me to know kind of what to pay attention to, like after taking the quizzes, I’ll know.

Jamie: I think so too.

Lo: But, also, maybe I’ll be totally mind fucked. So, you guys stay tuned, I’ll keep you posted on my enneagram journey.

Jamie: And, I would – this is just a fun question and I don’t have a great answer to it, but I can tell you what I wouldn’t do. If you have to survive on an island for two other types, what are you picking? And the answer is not mine. I am – a two is not helpful in that situation, like in general, I’m generally like decently resourceful, but if I’m surviving on an island for three days, I’m not picking me. I’m probably picking a one.

Lo: Perfectionists though, are like…are they paralyzed by indecision?

Jamie: No, actually, no, they’re not paralyzed.

Lo: That’s good.

Jamie: Maybe an eight, they’re very like, “Let’s go!” I’m just not picking me. I don’t know what the actual answer is. I’m not picking me, I’m not picking a four. I love you my fours, my babies, but you and I are not like, a team.

Lo: Not figuring this shit out together.

Jamie: And actually, I can tell you this, I’m not picking a six, either. They are like, completely struck by anxiety, and I have a ton of friends that are sixes who know, we’re not like great with this.

Lo: What about a five? I feel like a five would probably be like, “We’re going to die.”

Jamie: No, no, so I think…Ben is a five, one of our other really good friends is a five. They’re actually like pretty innovative.

Lo: Okay. Yeah, innovation, I’ll take that, I’d say.

Jamie: Yeah, I think a five is good.

Lo: And, it would also maybe help my anxiety. My perception is they’re realistic.

Jamie: 100%.

Lo: They’re like, “We might die, but let’s try this.” I’m like okay, alright, so at least you’re setting my expectations.

Jamie: Yes, yes. So, my answer is probably either going to be five and one or five and eight, but truthfully, I’m hoping not a two, so it can be like a five, eight, and something else, maybe a five, eight and one, but the answer is not a two. And, the last question I got, and this is a really hard one to answer, is the most compatible pairings, and the main answer is just that you generally won’t see two of the same type together.

Lo: Interesting.

Jamie: Yeah, you will not see twos and twos together, that kind of stuff. It’s much more common that you will see opposites together. Two and five, which is my husband and I, we are the enneagram double opposite, which means extrovert and introvert and feeling and thinking, so we are just like…

Lo: I love that.

Jamie: …very opposite, but like the Institute has said, this is actually a much more common pairing than you would think.

Lo: Totally, I mean, opposites attract, there’s a reason they say that.

Jamie: Right, right. So, that’s actually a pretty common pairing. Basically, anyone with a nine is like up there. Nines are just very chill.

Lo: Easy to be with, yeah.

Jamie: They’re the peacemakers, so they’re pretty chill, and they’re pretty easy for anyone to date.

Lo: That’s interesting, and it looks like – so, we can share, on our website we can actually put links, I’ll put links up to the articles we’ve been talking about too, if we want to do that.

Jamie: Oh, great.

Lo: We can link out this Enneagram Institute. They have relationship breakdowns by type, it looks like.

Jamie: Yes, yes. It’s so great if you know your type and your partner’s type, you’re able to – literally any number, you can go through the entire thing and read about your relationship, and that can honestly help you determine your type if you know for sure your partner’s type. So, we could, like for example, if we know Alex’s type is a three, you can go and read a two and a three versus a seven and a three and determine which one sounds more like your relationship. That is like a way to determine…

Lo: That would be helpful, yeah.

Jamie: Another common pairing is a two and an eight, and there are a lot of pairings that make sense where it’s a pairing that has like a stress and health components, like eights go to two in health and twos go to eight in stress, so there are…

Lo: Or the wings. It looks like there’s some wing pairings, like ones and twos.

Jamie: Yes, one and two, yep. The other really common one is actually my best friend and her husband, three and nine is an extremely common pairing. They ended up taking the enneagram because I was so into it, and they were like in the last in my group of friends from home to take it, and they made a night out of it, they made dinner and they made drinks and were like, “Alright, we’re going to take the enneagram,” and they like figured out their types, and it was really cool. Once I read, once they determined which ones they were and I read about it, I was like, “Oh, yeah. This makes sense.”

Lo: I have a question that I’m just thinking of while we close this section out, not to interrupt you.

Jamie: Yes.

Lo: It just occurred to me. I’m like, if you started your own business and you were interviewing people, would you ask for their enneagram type, and like make a decision based on how you, like in a work setting…like if you’re on your own and it’s the first person you’re hiring, are you concerned…I just wonder, because it’s like, you said this is super ancient…

Jamie: That’s a really interesting question.

Lo: …so like, I don’t know. How have we not been using this?

Jamie: Well, and so, it’s interesting because like Ben’s company, I mean they were already hired, but they – I don’t think it’s the whole company, but he’s on the leadership team, the leadership team all know their enneagram type and what it means. Ben actually knew his enneagram type before I ever got into it, which is actually really nice.

Lo: That’s so cool.

Jamie: I didn’t have to make him take the test.

Lo: Right. I’ve only ever taken Myers-Briggs, I’ve only ever had, for work, like a fun, bonding, team bonding, take the Myers-Briggs.

Jamie: And, that was actually the last question which I didn’t even answer, but the difference between Myers-Briggs and enneagram is that Myers-Briggs tells you what you are and enneagram tells you why. So, enneagram gives you your motivations behind what you’re doing, and Myers-Briggs is just like, “This is what you are.”

Lo: So, question then, if I know my Myers-Briggs, can I back into an enneagram from that? Like, are there…

Jamie: Yes, there are some correlations.

Lo: Parallels? Okay.

Jamie: It’s not like definitely indicative, but the fact that you and I have the same Myers-Briggs makes me, like…I’m not a seven. So, that is like an interesting aspect.

Lo: I also took the Myers-Briggs so long ago, like I haven’t taken it recently.

Jamie: So, I would maybe take it again and then see, like, how that pans out. But yeah, I would basically – the bottom line is like, anyone can be compatible, right? If you’re going to talk about any enneagram type that isn’t compatible, it’s probably two and five, my husband and I, because we’re the enneagram double opposites. 

Lo: But, it still works, obviously.

Jamie: Right, it still works obviously, because they say that there’s way more couples that are twos and fives than you would ever think. So, there are just some enneagram types that work exceptionally well together that like, really complement each other. Three and nine is one of them, and then some of them that have like stress and health or wings, they just really complement each other well, but really any enneagram type that is willing to work on themselves…

Lo: It’s just so interesting to think about if you were like having a business and you were like, “Okay, I want to hire my first employee who is going to be my right-hand man,” like, do I think about it? I don’t know, it’s just interesting.

Jamie: I mean, I would like to know, but because it’s such a personal thing, that if they didn’t already know, if it’s someone that hadn’t done enneagram…like, if they knew, it would be really helpful, but if it was someone who had never taken the enneagram before, it would probably be more hindering than helpful, because they’d be like, so overwhelmed with all of the options and understanding what it is. So, yeah, we’re going to figure out what Lo is. That’s our new goal. It freaks me out. It really freaks me out. I don’t understand.

Lo: Maybe I’ll start reading that book tomorrow, just because I’m curious.

Jamie: Yeah. I’m going to go through the chapters of your potential types and kind of take notes and figure out what I sort of see.

Lo: Yeah, and do that in a silo while I read this, and we can like – you can help me figure it out.

Jamie: Yes. Okay.

Lo: Speaking of books…

Jamie: Our final segment!

Lo: Yes! Speaking of books, which we shockingly have not talked about the entire time besides my “Beyond the Pill” plug, what was your favorite from September?

Jamie: So, my favorite, and I have a couple that I’m still hoping to finish before the end of the month, I’m reading “The Stationary Shop” for one of our friend’s book clubs, and then I’m hoping to finish this fantasy book that everyone on fucking bookstagram is talking about. I’m 70 pages in, it’s really long, but we’ll see if I finish it.

Lo: I struggle with fantasy, although in quarantine, I’ve like appreciated it more. I’ve appreciated it more, and I did get some vibes – what did I even read that I was saying…I don’t know.

Jamie: The crows. “Six of Crows.”

Lo: “Six of Crows.” Yeah. I appreciated it, but they’re generally too YA for me, but…

Jamie: That’s sort of how I felt about the first one in this series, and for anyone who listens and reads fantasy, it’s “A Court of Thorns and Roses.” I literally read that book in a day, and I did not give a fuck about it. So, that’s part of the reason that I’m like, not…really into…

Lo: Your review, that was my favorite thing, like, just didn’t give a fuck.

Jamie: I just didn’t care. I just didn’t care. So, the second book, everyone says the second book is so much better, I’m like 70 pages in and it’s like 600…

Lo: Whatever, it’s something fun to try new, whatever.

Jamie: Right.

Lo: But, what was your favorite out of all of the things that you read?

Jamie: “Winter Counts.”

Lo: Oh, I want to read that.

Jamie: Yeah. And oh my god, I’m the worst, I don’t have the author’s name, but he’s indigenous, so he had like a lot of…it’s an indigenous thriller, basically, it takes place on a reservation in South Dakota, I mean, it’s a thriller, but you also learn about indigenous culture as you’re reading, and it’s so good. I’m recommending it to everybody. I loved it. It was also – for people that are still subscribed, it was a book of the month pick.

Lo: Cool.

Jamie: It is really kind of getting out there, and it was so good. It was definitely my favorite, and it wasn’t a book that I like necessarily was like, “Oh, I’m definitely going to read it.” It wasn’t on my radar right away.

Lo: Right. And, did you end up reading your – what did you preorder last time for this month?

Jamie: “Black in the Midwest” by Terrion L. Williamson and she was a professor – she is a professor.

Lo: Yeah, did you end up reading that?

Jamie: I did, and so actually, I didn’t really do a ton of background research on it before I ordered it, I just knew it was going to be about being black in the Midwest, so what it was actually was a compilation of stories and photographs and paintings and poems by black people that lived in the Midwest.

Lo: Oh, whoa.

Jamie: So it wasn’t…

Lo: Like a narrative structure at all.

Jamie: Right. I thought it was going to be like a study, and it was not like that at all, so it was really all of these very short stories or poems or like I said, photographs, or they had photographs of paintings of black people in the Midwest, and it was fascinating. There were so many different aspects of it that I was like, “Oh my God,” just so cool to hear all of these different stories.

Lo: So, here’s one thing: I’m like the worst reader ever. I hate compilation books of short stories, and I know I shouldn’t.

Jamie: Not your thing.

Lo: I know I shouldn’t. Well, this might be interesting because it’s historical, but otherwise, if it’s like fictional short stories compiled, I’m like, “What is the point?”

Jamie: Oh, right.

Lo: I’m like, not about that, but this sounds interesting.

Jamie: It is obviously non-fictional, but it was just like an interesting perspective because you got all of the different Midwestern states, you had different types of literature in it. It was not what I was expecting, but I’m glad I read it, for sure.

Lo: That’s awesome.

Jamie: And, pre-ordering for October, “The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue” by V.E. Schwab comes out October 6th, and I’m pretty sure you pre-ordered this too.

Lo: We did. In a silo, I didn’t know Jamie did, we like – I tried not to look at her list while I was doing it.

Jamie: This was my only pre-order for October, it’s described as genre-defying and I was trying to figure out what that meant, and it’s like historical fantasy, apparently.

Lo: So down for that.

Jamie: Yeah. I’m very much here for that.

Lo: Like adult fantasy with a historical element. I’m a sucker for historical fiction.

Jamie: I’m pumped. So, basically, the premise is it’s set in 1714 France, and a woman – she’s a young woman, and she like makes this bargain to live forever and is cursed to be forgotten by everyone she meets until someone remembers her, and that’s the premise of the story. I have a friend that has already gotten an advanced reader copy of it and said it was incredible, so I’m very, very pumped.

Lo: So exciting.

Jamie: It comes out October 6th, so you’ll have some time to preorder if you’re listening to this on October 1st.

Lo: Yeah.

Jamie: Alright, so tell me, favorite from September.

Lo: This was hard, because…

Jamie: You read a lot in September.

Lo: I read a lot. The last 12 months have been like, pretty…like a doozy of a reading situation.

Jamie: Yeah, you’ve done really well.

Lo: I’ve read some really, really good books. So, it’s funny, I was originally like definitely “Freshwater,” which is a difficult one to “favor” it because it’s a difficult book. We read it – for everyone who is listening, we read it as part of our little bokstagram book club, and it’s some very dark, heavy topics. I just love Akwaeke, I’m just like, obsessed. So, that, for the writing and for the journey it took me on, but then I very much needed a reprieve from that and I picked up “The Grace Year,” which I know you’ve also read.

Jamie: Yep.

Lo: And, I’m just realizing, like dystopian novels are my adult fantasy.

Jamie: Your jam.

Lo: And I’m super into it. It read very similarly to like, “Handmaid’s Tale” in my opinion.

Jamie: Did you ever read “The Hunger Games”?

Lo: I did, yes.

Jamie: Okay, so the way everyone has described “The Grace Year” was like a Handmaid’s Tale/Hunger Games hybrid. Would you agree with that? 

Lo: Yes. I would say I felt more Handmaid’s Tale, only because – I know people say Hunger Games because it felt like kind of action packed. I still – I mean, I guess in my visual of the Handmaid’s Tale is now the Hulu series, and I feel like it did have those dark, eerie kind of intense moments, so for me, I just kind of felt like Handmaid’s Tale, but I totally understand the parallel. But, I really liked it. I literally like, I was like, “Oh, that was so necessary, thank god.”

Jamie: I remember you texted me like, “I’m reading this in the parking lot while I’m picking up groceries.”

Lo: I would order my groceries and pick them up, and normally you’re waiting for maybe approximately three minutes, and I would be reading while I was waiting.

Jamie: Yeah. I liked it. When I was still giving books grades, I gave it an A-.

Lo: Yeah, I get that. There were parts of it that frustrated me, like, this doesn’t feel as…like, it felt like they were purposely shortened so the book wasn’t super long. I was like, there could have been more…I don’t normally say that about books.

Jamie: Well, it sort of sets itself up for either a sequel or a prequel or both.

Lo: Right, 100%.

Jamie: And like, I had said this in my review, I was really like…I wish there was more world-building. I wanted to know why the world was like set up the way that it was.

Lo: Totally that, and so I was reading some reviews – some negative reviews, actually, of it, and there were women that were really frustrated with the feminist stance and felt like the way that the author handled feminism kind of flipped on…like, it wasn’t actually great for women, and it was funny for me to read those, because I actually – and, maybe it’s just who I am, but I read those parts of the book with more hope. I was like, “Oh, this is cool,” this is like you said, it’s setting itself up for something, but people were pretty upset about the way she handled feminism generally in the book. So, it’s interesting, if anyone reads it…

Jamie: We’d love to hear.

Lo: Yeah, we’d love to hear about it. And, I did read my preorders, “Transcendent Kingdom” and “Anxious People,” and I like, love Yaa Gyasi, which again, another fucking name I fucked up last time. I love her. I preferred “Homegoing,” like if I had to choose between “Transcendent Kingdom” and “Homegoing,” I would choose “Homegoing.”

Jamie: And it was a bit because of the multiple perspectives, is that like…

Lo: Multiple perspectives, there was like a historical angle, which I’m a sucker for, and it was just kind of a really cool way to look at family lineage and trauma and like history, so I loved “Homegoing.” I thought the way she did that made her just so impressive in her mind, I was like, how does an author accomplish this? It’s like beyond…

Jamie: I haven’t read “Homegoing,” so I have to.

Lo: You have to read it. “Transcendent Kingdom” I thought was great.

Jamie: Yeah, I also really liked it.

Lo: She’s a great writer, so it’s like, how can you complain then? And then, “Anxious People,” Frederik Backman is a love of mine. He always makes me cry. So, this book is supposed to be funny, and it is, I was laughing out loud, it was very funny, but still at the fucking end he made me cry, but like, love him for it. Love him for it.

Jamie: Okay, so, have you read “Bear Town”?  Have you read “Bear Town” and the sequel?

Lo: I have, and they’re not as good. So, I fell in love with Fredrik Backman when I read “A Man Called Ove.”

Jamie: And that’s also a very polarizing book. Some people fucking hate that book.

Lo: Ove?

Jamie: Mhm.

Lo: Yeah. And I read it so long ago, I wonder how I would feel now. Anyways, I just think – so, Backman for me, as an author, and he did it in “Anxious People” as well, he just has this incredible way of writing about humans and their connections to one another, and so like, I didn’t adore “Bear Town,” but I love hockey, so I kind of did enjoy that element of it.

Jamie: You do?

Lo: Yeah. That was like the sport I grew up, like, because…so, I grew up, like, so I grew up in the San Jose area.

Jamie: You’re in Calif- oh.

Lo: Yeah, but we didn’t have like, we don’t have the San Jose – we had a soccer team that wasn’t that amazing, but we had hockey, the Sharks.

Jamie: That makes more sense, but it’s a totally weird thing to me, because it makes sense, I’m from the Midwest, I’m very close to Canada, the Red Wings, like all of…whenever I talk about hockey in front of Ben, he’s so confused because it’s clearly not a southern sport.

Lo: 100%, yeah, no. But, I think it’s just I grew up going to the Sharks games, so I’m a huge hockey fan.

Jamie: Interesting.

Lo: Anyway, but even in that book, even in “Bear Town,” in the series, he does shore up such interesting and deep relationships with people in like a really…he’s just very talented, and so I always love his writing, he always makes me cry, but in like the best way.

Jamie: Did you cry reading “Bear Town”?

Lo: I did not, actually.

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: It made me tear at one moment. I felt like I…

Jamie: I read it a couple of years ago, and I thought it was such a slow start, man, I definitely got into it towards the end, but when I was grading books I gave it a B+ because it finally sped up towards the end, but I did not care enough to read the second book. I just never got it.

Lo: Yeah, it wasn’t…I think I just read it because I like Backman…

Jamie: You like him enough that…yeah.

Lo: It was going to be an easy read.

Jamie: But, do you think I’ll like “Anxious People”?

Lo: You will, because it’s funny.

Jamie: Okay, cool.

Lo: It’s…like, I was laughing and I was like, “Oh shit, these fucking people,” and it made me want to move to Sweden.

Jamie: Oh, it takes place in Sweden?

Lo: He’s Swedish.

Jamie: Right, I know, but this actual book takes place – “Anxious People” takes place in Sweden?

Lo: Yeah. Well, so does “Bear Town,” I think.

Jamie: It did?

Lo: It does not take place in the U.S.

Jamie: Interesting, I don’t remember that, but I believe you.

Lo: Anyway, so those were my – I read both of those. And then my preorders, which you were about to ask me about…

Jamie: Yes.

Lo: Funny enough, also “The Invisible Life,” but then I ordered two more. One is called “They Never Learn.”

Jamie: Okay, what is that about?

Lo: I could not describe it for you, so I pulled this quote.

Jamie: Okay.

Lo: “It’s a feminist serial killer story, perfect for fans of Killing Eve and Chelsea Cane.” I am a huge Killing Eve fan, love that show.

Jamie: I’m going to need you to read and review this for me.

Lo: Yeah, so basically – I know, it could go either way, right?

Jamie: Right.

Lo: I was just like, I have to know, but basically, it’s about these women that – it’s basically making abusers pay for the atrocities they commit against women, so these women kind of get this redemption.

Jamie: Vigilante justice.

Lo: Yes, exactly, and it follows a few characters of varying ages, so we get some variety.

Jamie: Yeah, I’m here for that.

Lo: But, the other one – that comes out October 13th so I haven’t received mine yet, obviously, but hopefully I will review it soon. And then, “Leave the World Behind,” which is a contemporary fiction, and I picked it up because I’ve heard really good things about this author, whose name is Rumaan Alam.

Jamie: Oh, I haven’t heard of him.

Lo: This is his third novel, and I don’t remember what his other two novels are, but it’s his third one. This one is basically like this family goes and they – it’s like in New York, but they go into a vacation home for a period of time, and then something happens, and the family that is renting the home, I think, has to come back, and there’s all this sort of drama, like they don’t know if there’s actually a disaster happening, which is why the family has to come back, so it’s kind of thriller-y, I don’t know.

Jamie: Interesting.

Lo: We’ll see, we’ll see. It says, “Suspenseful and provocative, this novel is keenly attuned to the complexities of parenthood, race, and class. ‘Leave the World Behind’ explores how our closest bonds are really shaped and unexpected new ones are forged in moments of crisis.”

Jamie: Oh, I like that.

Lo: Yeah, so that’s really interesting.

Jamie: And also, I love that these – at least these first two, “The Invisible Life” is kind of on bookstagram, but I’ve never seen these on bookstagram, so you and I are a sucker for that. So, love that.

Lo: Love that.

Jamie: Yeah.

Lo: But that’s it. Are we done? Is this our second episode, wrapping up?

Jamie: Guys. Number two. Guys, we’re really excited, and we’re excited to bring you new content in November, too. We do have an interview coming in November with the famous Carter Sickels of “The Prettiest Star.” We talked about that in August, but it is official.

Lo: It’s happening.

Jamie: It’s happening, so.

Lo: Well, we don’t have it on the calendar. I sent him two times. He’s going to do it, but like, watch us come back like, “Sorry, he bailed on us.”

Jamie: We’re just really excited. He’s just so incredibly talented, and it’s literally…

Lo: Do we make him take the enneagram?

Jamie: He would kill me. He’d be like, “Are you…” What if he’s already taken it though? He already knows.

Lo: He could take the quickie free version.

Jamie: He might know. I mean, with astrology, he has a birthday already, you’ll be able to figure that out.

Lo: Yeah, exactly. What time were you born and where?

Jamie: Oh, true, true. Can you not ask me such personal questions? Thanks. But guys, thank you so much for joining us on Episode 2, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Lo: We’ll see you next time. Bye! 

[END OF RECORDED AUDIO]