"Healthy Food - That Tastes So Good " - Tommy Leung

What if healthy food actually became the most delicious part of your day? We sit down with entrepreneur and food innovator Tommy Leung to unpack how flavour-first meals, smart nutrition, and precision fermentation can turn good intentions into a habit you’ll enjoy keeping.

Tommy’s journey stretches from family-run Chinese restaurants in Sweden  to leading a modern meal service designed for busy professionals. He breaks down why high protein and high fiber are only half the story—taste is the engine of consistency. We explore how his team reworked meal prep from the ground up: fresh, from scratch sauces and curries; 24 rotating options each week from salmon to shredded chicken; flexible chilled deliveries; and macros printed on every label with QR codes for instant ingredient transparency. If you’ve struggled with calorie counting, portion creep, or meal boredom, you’ll take away a simple system to get variety without losing control.

We also dive into gut health and the surprising power of fermented foods. Tommy explains how fermentation transforms humble ingredients into umami-rich staples—think miso, soy sauce, kimchi—and why temperature control is the secret to consistent, safe, and expressive flavors. That insight drove the creation of HakkoBako, a professional fermentation chamber now used by top chefs and bartenders to fine-tune ferments at scale. Beyond flavor, we discuss sustainability wins like upcycling kitchen trimmings and how thoughtful tech can reduce waste while elevating taste.

Threaded through the conversation are hard-won startup lessons: talk to customers before you build, keep focus tight, separate tools and spaces to avoid context switching, and iterate in public. Whether you want to lose weight, gain muscle, or simply eat better with less stress, this episode offers a practical blueprint: make it delicious, make it easy, track what counts, and add ferments for a happier gut. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review—what would you like to see on a healthy menu next?

Chapters

• 0:00 Why Healthy Must Be Delicious
• 1:02 Show Intro And Host’s Mission
• 1:51 Meet Tommy: Founder And Innovator
• 3:14 Roots In Sweden And Hong Kong
• 5:24 Seeing Similarities Across Cultures
• 7:38 Introducing Mealthi’s Value
• 9:17 Rebuilding Meal Service For Taste
• 11:47 Customer Research And Retention
• 13:14 Macros, Tracking, And Pricing
• 15:27 Recipes, Rotation, And Feedback
• 17:05 Flexibility, Packaging, Sustainability
• 18:35 Fermented Foods And Gut Health
• 19:41 Hakobako: From Idea To Hardware
• 22:10 Temperature Control And Consistency
• 23:38 Pro Kitchens Now, Home Later
• 25:09 Six-Year Build And Funding Hurdles
• 27:03 Focus, Context Switching, Boundaries
• 29:03 Key Takeaways And How To Connect
• 30:20 Host Summary And Final CTA

Transcript

Tommy Leung: 0:00

Besides those principles, you know, to have high, high fiber and high protein, I believe that food should be delicious. So the number one thing is the food wasn't delicious. That was so bland. So we say, okay, we have to come in and we have to make delicious food. So basically, how do you make healthy food delicious? Something you want to eat every day, something that's convenient, something you don't get bored of. And if you make it easy to do that, it's such an easy habit, right? So that's what we did. We we changed it to have fresh meals. We added more seasonings, we make them more delicious, and basically we make everything from scratch. So, like all the curries, the seasonings. I spent a long time talking to customers. Uh, so I try to go out and meet them, like in person, and even visiting their homes here in Hong Kong, uh, or doing like online calls and understanding like, okay, what are the challenges that you had when it comes to eating? Uh, when are you eating it? Uh, how do you order it? Uh, what foods are you looking for?

Vincent Hiscox: 1:02

Hi, I'm Vincent Hiscox, a health coach, podcaster, and storyteller. Welcome to the Over 40 Wellness Podcast. We all have the ability to look better and feel better. Becoming healthy should not be complicated. On this podcast, I talk to health and wellness professionals who share their stories and their expertise so that you can optimize your health. The conversations will inspire and empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice to transform the way you feel. Look better and feel better with the Over 40 Wellness Podcast. My guest on the podcast this week is Tommy Loong. Tommy is a serial entrepreneur, an innovator with a background in food product development, manufacturing and meal delivery. He founded Gaffel.com, a central kitchen supplying meals to major retail supermarkets, food service providers and cafes across Hong Kong. Tommy is also the owner of Mealti.com, a leading meal prep service in Hong Kong. Tommy shares the benefits of using Mealti for meal delivery in the podcast. In 2019 he launched Hakobako, Building Fermentation Chambers for some of the best restaurants and bars in the world. Tommy has also worked as a consultant for recipe and food development with leading food brands and chains. He is a firm believer in giving back and recently shared his expertise as a guest lecturer at Hong Kong News Food Science Program. Tommy has gained multiple awards, including but not exclusively winning the PAPA Awards for Best New Product, an AA Taste Award, and being named one of Sweden's super entrepreneurial talents. In the podcast, Tommy shares how he grew up in Sweden and Hong Kong in a family that run Chinese restaurants. Growing up, he moved between living in Hong Kong and Sweden and is immersed in both cultures. Tommy goes into detail on what he offers and what are the benefits for clients of using MealThee. There are over 240 scheduled meals with the opportunity to give customer feedback. To keep the menu fresh every week there is a new meal introduced. Meals are chosen once a week by customers with lots of flexibility and additional guidance is available from a nutritionist. Fermented Foods is the domain of Hakobako. Tommy was inspired to found Hakobako by the NOMA guide to fermentation. Fermentation is all about temperature control. These are being developed for use by chefs and a home version will come later. We discuss the benefits of fermented food in the podcast. So good morning Tommy, how are you today?

Tommy Leung: 4:22

Good morning. I'm good, thank you.

Vincent Hiscox: 4:24

Yeah, super to have you here on the podcast. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to listening to you to explain what it is you do. And just to get the podcast rolling, I understand that you come from Sweden. I was traveling there last year. Fabulous place.

Tommy Leung: 4:42

How did you come to Hong Kong from Sweden? Uh yeah, so I was born in Sweden. Uh, but my dad is from Hong Kong. So he came to Sweden in the 70s uh with his brother who worked in the Hong Kong Trade Council. And uh somehow his brother went back to Hong Kong and my dad got stuck in Sweden and they started uh having some Chinese restaurants. So at that time it was something really new to have Chinese food in Sweden, and especially they were uh traveling a lot in the north of Sweden, and uh yeah, so I kind of grew up in a family that had Chinese restaurants, and my mom is from Sweden, so I always had that Hong Kong and Sweden connection. And then as I grew up, we moved to Hong Kong and then back to Sweden a few times. So when I was very young, I moved to Hong Kong, or my parents moved to Hong Kong and I was one year old. Yeah, my mom was from Sweden, so she didn't really know many people, and they were living in Pok Fu Lam in Hong Kong, and she was walking around uh, you know, in the playgrounds, and when she was there, she met another lady from Taiwan and they became friends, and that lady also had some kids, four daughters, actually. It's funny because as we grew up, like we stayed in touch with them and we're family friends, and uh, that's my wife now. We got married and uh uh we met up again when we were 20s, so we had lost contact, and then we were 20, we we met up again. So I've always had the connection to Hong Kong, and then when I was seven, we also moved to Hong Kong and we lived for two years in Discovery Bay. I have always been like back and forth between Hong Kong and Sweden. And this time I've been here for 10 years, uh working and doing business, so uh we'll see how long I stay this time.

Vincent Hiscox: 6:17

Yeah, very exciting for you. So your parents, one Chinese, one Swedish, Swedish mum. Yeah, let's say Chinese or Hong Kong dad.

Tommy Leung: 6:26

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 6:27

And when you were you were growing up and you were sort of spending time in Sweden, spending time in Hong Kong, how how did that feel for you?

Tommy Leung: 6:36

Uh it felt normal. I mean, that's how I grew up. So uh for me it was the most normal thing in the world. Uh but now that I'm older, I look back, it might have been quite unique because I think the Swedish side was very Swedish. So, like my maternal grandparents, they were living up in northern Sweden, and um my grandma was a was a nurse, and my grandpa was uh was a teacher uh teaching uh carpentry. Uh so they lived very like simple lives. Um uh did a lot of foraging, like picking blueberries and mushrooms and a lot of sports like skiing, and so like some big some holidays were always in northern Sweden, like for Easter and Christmas and uh early summer, and then some holidays were in Hong Kong. Um, so the Swedish side was very, very Swedish. And when we came to Hong Kong, it was very Hong Kong, right? So it was very international, and so I got both sides of that. Like, and I think now that I work with food, it's you know, I was very into the food in Sweden, but also here in Hong Kong and the Chinese food, and you know, drinking Chinese soups and all these things. So uh I'm really grateful for that experience, I think, to have like a genuine upbringing in both sides of the culture. And for us it was so natural and normal to just switch between. So yeah, we really enjoyed that.

Vincent Hiscox: 7:48

Yeah, fabulous story. Yeah. So so I mean, basically what what I'm understanding from that is that there was a culture from Sweden, there was the culture from Hong Kong, but you know, through your parents, for you it was seamless.

Tommy Leung: 8:01

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 8:02

So it wasn't like, you know, now I have to change because I'm in this place, now I have to change because I'm here.

Tommy Leung: 8:07

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 8:08

It you know, both places were sort of coherent for you, and I'm sure that you know that added value to you growing up. If you look back at that, what would you say was the biggest value you got from that?

Tommy Leung: 8:21

I think seeing how people are similar. A lot of people say, oh, Chinese people do this, or Swedish people do that, Western do this or that, but we're so similar. Uh it's like small cultural differences, but as behavior, we're all so similar. So I think that's something I always think, you know, when I hear people mention how we're so different, we're actually so similar. You know, all the behaviors you can see them in like every single culture. So I think that's something that uh I've always noticed, and I think other people focus a lot on like the small the differences, but uh we're so similar.

Vincent Hiscox: 8:52

Yeah, and that's a super insight. And I think even more amplified from the point of view that you know your grandparents were in northern Sweden, and I mean I was in Sweden with my wife on holiday, yeah, and wow, it's like another world. Yeah, it really is another world. We actually went uh to the north, yeah. We went to the north of Norway to see the northern lights, and we were lucky enough to see them. Then we crossed over into Sweden, and then we were lucky enough in northern Sweden to see the northern lights again. The emptiness of Sweden and northern Norway compared to Hong Kong. How do you feel about that?

Tommy Leung: 9:31

It's amazing to be that you have all the space, just the air. You know, when you land in Hong Kong, you get you used to get hit by that shockwave of humidity. And when you're in Sweden, it's all open and the air is so fresh, and the water up there is so delicious. And it's kind of funny because when I grew up, I spent so much time up there, right? But we never talked about northern lights. It wasn't something people talked about. Right. Uh, you know, you'd looked out and you'd see all these colors in the sky, but no one's like, oh, let's go out and look at that. Yeah. It was nothing that people talked about. It's only when I come to Asia that people like, oh, talk about Aurora and Northern Lights and traveling there. And it's kind of funny because it's something we never ever really discussed, or like we didn't go out to take a look at it or anything like that. Yeah, it was never like a topic of conversation, which is kind of funny. So you just take something for granted.

Vincent Hiscox: 10:16

If it's something that's you know it's a part of the nature, you know, your nature, uh, when you're living there, I'm sure. Uh I mean we traveled on that holiday 15,000 miles in in a camper van. Yeah. With you know, the big aim from my wife was Northern Lights. Yeah, nice. Yeah. And and the fact that we saw it was just, yeah, absolutely amazing. Okay, so let's bring let's bring the listeners up to date. Uh maybe you can share with the listeners, Tommy, what it is you do today.

Tommy Leung: 10:48

So I have two companies here in Hong Kong. Uh, one company is called Meal Fee. So we do meal deliveries, uh like healthy meal delivery for the busy people of Hong Kong. Uh so we have a kitchen out in uh Chunwan. We're just close to the port area. And uh yeah, we offer like healthy meal boxes. So you know, in Hong Kong, you can find every single food almost anywhere for any different price. But basically, what we offer are high protein meals that are packed with fiber. Uh so it's something that's convenient. Like in Hong Kong, it's really hard to find fiber, actually. You know, there's like white rice, white bread, white noodles. Um, so generally you're getting loads of white carbs and then a little bit of veggies and a little bit of meat. So our kind of meals are portioned differently. So mainly the main focus is on the protein, and then all the carb sides are like high fiber size, like brown rice, red rice, quinoa, uh, these kind of things. I've been running that since since COVID. So actually, Mealfi was one of my early customers uh with Gaff Film, which is a company I I still have or had previously, we're doing bean pastas. Uh so during COVID, they were struggling quite a lot with Mealfi. And um, yeah, so I I ended up taking it over and kind of rebuilding the service, improving the food, improving the menu, uh, improving the delivery system. Uh so that's how I got into that. And so I've been running the kitchens for uh almost 10 years. And in 2019, the big trend was like gluten-free foods and a lot of plant-based foods. And we wanted to make our own uh like uh fermented sauces, like oyster sauces and soy sauces, um, instead of buying the factory-made ones. And uh so then I got into fermentation, started reading about fermentation, understanding how do you ferment and what do you need to do it. Around that time, there's a food conference in Hong Kong called Future Foods Conference. And then I met someone that had uh like a food tech accelerator there, it was called Brink, and Dalala was heading up that program. So she was a food scientist from Hong Kong you. And somehow we got us started talking about fermentation. And I said, Oh, I have an idea. I really want to build this fermentation chamber because we want to ferment all these foods, but there's nothing out there for our kitchen. And she said, Oh, that's a great idea. Like if you do that, you can probably get funding for it. You should apply it to our accelerator. And I said, No, I don't want, I can't, because I already have my business. And uh, but she said, No, you should you really give it a try. And uh I did, and we got accepted, and that's how uh Hakobako was founded. So Hakobako means fermentation box in in uh in Japanese. I'm really glad I actually started with Hakubako. And at that time we started getting into the startup world. So, you know, we got some training in the accelerator. I also did a lot of reading with like, you know, Y Combinator and startup school and understanding how do you start a startup, how do you build it, uh, how do you fundraise and get money from investors. And uh I think the most important things that I learned there was talking to customers. So, what we did is before we went out and started building a product, I went out and like talked to different chefs around Hong Kong. So we went to like Mandro and Oriental and talked to the chefs there. Uh, we talked to some chefs doing plant-based foods, and went to different restaurants and bars that were already fermenting. And we just sat down and talked. Like, okay, how are you fermenting today? Uh, what are the challenges? What do you need? And basically what we found was that the chefs were lacking temperature control. So to ferment, you're kind of harnessing bacteria, molds, and yeasts. And they were being really creative. So they were building their own fermentation chambers. They were using these combi ovens, they were using the hot plate holders. They had like a cabinet in the back that was kind of hot in the kitchen and they were putting their ferments there. Um, but there wasn't like a dedicated device that they could use for it. So, yeah, so we just talked to those users or those are like those chefs and understand, understood what needed to be done and started working on it and building it. And uh, from there until now, so we just launched our product in September. Uh, but the company was was started in 2019. So it took me almost six years to get from the idea to finally having a product. Yeah, and it's been really a long journey. You know, along the way we ran out of money. We had some funds, but in the end we didn't get any more funding. And that's at some point, like, you know, all the funds would go to like Bitcoin or crypto and AI, and we're neither of those. Uh, and I probably pitched to 200 or 300 investors and got a like a couple of yeses and hundreds of no's. So somehow we we started grinding it out. Uh when we ran out of money, I went and I got a job. So I had a full-time job for a while. We just kind of did everything to keep the company alive. So, you know, actually they say like uh money is like the fuel for a car, right? And once you once that runs out, it just stops. Uh so we just kept eaking it out. And uh yeah, I'm happy to say that we finally launched the product and now we're becoming a real business. And uh a lot of those early users that I talked to, they're still fermenting and they actually placed orders for the machines now that are coming out, and you know, we're getting requests from many of the best chefs and the restaurants in the world, and they're creating incredible foods with with with our chamber.

Vincent Hiscox: 15:59

Yeah, great. So I I want to interrupt you there because there was so much that came out from what you were talking about there. Yeah. And maybe the first thing is this is a health and wellness podcast. And I know because we sort of talked before the podcast, what you're doing, but let's go back to Meal Thy. And you know, what you were saying on MealThy is that you've got this uh you're working from a base high protein and high fiber. And then from myself, if I if I reflect on the rules that I use with my clients, rules, I shouldn't call them rules, recommendations that I use with my clients. And you know, I'll be very honest, a lot of them just come to me to lose weight.

Tommy Leung: 16:45

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 16:45

Okay. And those are two of the key recommendations. Have a diet that's high in fiber, have a diet that's uh high in protein. And if you if you do that and you you can incorporate that, and of course there are many things after that, but those are two of the principal yeah, I would call them even habits. If you can get those into your diet, then you're going in the right direction. So what I understand from what you said there was from MealThe, this this also is almost one of your guiding principles, is that it's you know, it's high protein and it's high fiber. Yeah. So maybe you could just share a bit more detail on MealThi. I would ask you to do it from the listener's point of view. I mean, if the listeners were saying, that's the first time I've heard about MealThi, what is it you do and how can it sort of benefit them? Yeah, sure.

Tommy Leung: 17:42

So when I took over MealThi, it was very bodybuilding focused and high performance focused. So they had very bland meals, but very great macros, and uh it was also frozen. So there was frozen packs in Uri, and it was, you know, very health focused for people that are very serious about the training, like amateur or competitive bodybuilding. But when I came in, you know, I had like besides those principles, you know, to have high, high fiber and high protein. I believe that food should be delicious. So the number one thing is if food wasn't delicious, I was so bland. So we say, okay, we have to come in and we have to make delicious food. So basically, how do you make healthy food delicious? Something you want to eat every day, something that's convenient, something you don't get bored of. And if you make it easy to do that, it's such an easy habit, right? And uh so that's what we did. We we changed it to have fresh meals. Um and uh, you know, we added more seasonings, we make them more delicious, and basically we make everything from scratch. So, like all the curries, the seasonings, uh, we make those from scratch so we know exactly what's going into them. I spent a long time talking to customers. Uh, so I try to go out and meet them, like in person, and even visiting their homes here in Hong Kong, uh, or doing like online calls and understanding like, okay, what are the challenges that you had when it comes to eating? Uh, when are you eating it? Uh, how do you order it? Uh, what foods are you looking for? Now that I've been doing that, we have some customers that really, really love us. So the majority of the base, it's a it's a recurring business. I think it's 70 or 80% of the customers are coming back week after week. So, you know, they've discovered us, and I think what people enjoy is there's a lot of other services in Hong Kong. And uh what I've heard from them is people get bored of it and they kind of force themselves to eat it. So they're getting like two or ten meals every week, and they're just forcing themselves. I always have to be eating these. Uh so what we did differently is that we blast chill it so you so they arrive chilled. Uh so you can put them in the fridge, and then you have the flexibility over several days to eat it when you want to. And uh you the minimum order is only four meals per week. So, you know, if you have other commitments, uh you don't have to force yourself to you just you know constantly have meals arriving. And we let customers choose their own meals. So each week we have 24 different meals. So, you know, like like we say, we have beef brighon, we also have fish options, seafood options, uh, pork, chicken, uh, turkey. Uh, and each meal comes in either balanced or low carb. Uh, but the means are always the same, but you have different sides. So if you have a balanced meal, you get like brown rice, um uh chemo rice, um, and uh on the low carb side, you have something like cauliflower rice or shield hockey noodles. So people get to choose their own meals. And you know, if you like like, you know, we have like ribeye steak on the menu. If you like that, you can choose eight of those. So it's up to you what you want to eat. I've been talking to some customers now, and they say, Oh, I started with meal thy, I started with four meals per week. And in the beginning, I wasn't used to having so much fiber, so it took me a while to adjust to it. Like in the beginning, I felt like, you know, because I'm not used to having all this. Um, but then as they got more used to it, he upgraded to six meals, eight meals, ten meals per week. You know, he says mainly he's eating all meal-free except for social meals, you know, when he always go go out and meet clients and these things. And, you know, a lot of people have lost a lot of weight or gained the muscle that they're looking for. Um, so it's not like a weight loss plan, but you know, it helps people reach those goals. And I think if 80% of your calories are coming from clean whole foods, which is what we provide, uh it makes it so much easier to follow, right? So if you're doing 20% junk, like at least your main meals are are are are are are solid.

Vincent Hiscox: 21:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so many points that you that you brought out there. But I just want to focus in on a few. I mean, this this concept of having meals delivered, having meals delivered, which you know what's in there. So I mean you're choosing what what's going to be in your meal in terms of the protein, in terms of the fiber, in terms even when you were talking about you know the different carbs that you put in there. This from a user point of view gives the opportunity if you know if they're on this diet. I mean, you know, people do go on diets and they go on diets quite often, if they can then be sure that what they're eating is high quality. And I think equally important is and the benefit of what you do is that they can be very clear about how many calories they're taking with their meals. Because this is something which when my clients typically when they're you know preparing food themselves, you know, they they always get it wrong. I mean when I say they all and I don't say that in a sort of in any way to sort of say they they can't do it properly, it's just it's not so simple to sort of do those calculations to the level of detail that you would need if you were doing something sustained over a long time. And typically, and I'm sure we all do it, they they would uh underestimate the number of calories in a meal. Hey look, I'm following this and I'm eating this and I'm eating that, but nothing's happening. Yeah. You know, when you dig dig dig a little bit deeper into the detail, then uh you can see that actually they're sort of and it's not easy. I mean it's not easy to measure calories, you know, as a as uh on a sort of uh a layman's uh terms, but the estimation isn't correct. So the service I would see one of the benefits, and you can explain to me if it's the case, would be for people who are looking to say, okay, I want a particular diet with particular particular macros, with a particular calories, then they can get that from you. Is that fair? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And from the people that are using uh MealThe, how how many do you kind of find out how many people fall into that kind of category?

Tommy Leung: 23:50

I think most of them are busy professionals that are active. So they have some kind of active lifestyle, they're working out, so and they're looking for for kind of better performance, right? Um I don't have data on exactly what looking for. So each meal has the the calories, uh, protein, carbs, uh, macros printed on it. Right. And then you can also scan the meal. There's a little QR code in each meal, and then you get up all the list of every single ingredient that's in that meal as well. Um so a lot of them, customers, they upload these to my recipe. So once you scan that QR code, it's already like some other customer has already put up the macros for it. So it makes it really easy to track that way. Right. Um, most people have some kind of fitness interests that that that are driving them to it, but a lot of them, I think they keep staying, also because in the end they get so convenient. So even if you're doing your own meal prep, like in Hong Kong, it's like I couldn't meal prep the food we're doing at home for the same price. Right. Yeah. So, you know, it's very expensive to buy retail in Hong Kong with like supermarkets and uh, you know, even if going to the wet market, it's not very convenient. So our meals are around $100 Hong Kong dollars per meal. And of course in Hong Kong you can find much more expensive and cheaper meals. Uh, but to find the balanced meals um with its variety, I think that's sort of what we're offering to the customers.

Vincent Hiscox: 25:13

Right. You're introducing a new thing there, which is basically value for money. So not only is it good for you, not only is it giving you the exact details of what's inside in terms of the macros, depending on what your goals could be, then it's also coming in at a very, you know, at a very affordable price. With all the information behind it. So it's yeah, I can see, you know, I can see the benefit. And even for myself with some clients where they've been uh doing what they would consider being a calorie control diet and and it isn't working, then I actually say, you know, try this, try this approach, take something which is uh already well defined in terms of what's inside, what the macros, you know, what are the calories inside, then it'll give you uh a calibration so they can calibrate for themselves. And if they say, okay, I take these meals so many times a week, and then I do other meals for myself so many times a week, you know, that can be a sort of a an ideal compromise. Yeah. Absolutely great. So in terms of your and I'm sure the listeners would be interested in this, how do you come up with your recipes?

Tommy Leung: 26:36

Well, we have I mean, we've been doing this for so long now. So we have over 240 recipes like in the menu book. And uh some recipes we like some recipes we have to have there every single week. And if they're not there, we will get angry. So we like we have this Mexican shredded chicken that people love, so it has to be there every week. We always have to have a salmon dish on the menu, and then we'll have different variations of the salmon dish. So we try to listen to the customers again, and we can see you know how many they're ordering. So we can see which meals are popular and which ones are less popular. Like lamb meals are not very popular. So we try to keep optimizing the menu. And each meal also has like a feedback form. So you can scan it and say, like, okay, I like this, this is too salty, I don't like this. Uh so we keep listening to the customers and uh try to reiterate. And then every week we'll also have a brand new meal that's never been featured before. Uh so you don't get bored of it. So it's it's kind of funny because people want variation, but then they also want their favorites. Um, so for us, you know, we can't make uh like we're already at 24 meals per week. And if we could do more, I wish we could, but so we have to kind of balance that between having the favorites that people want every week and uh having something new and something exciting and also keeping it healthy, and also depends on the supplies and the season. So during Christmas, we'll have some like more turkey meals, we'll have Christmas meals in Chinese New Year. We have kun choi meals, and um also that kind of depends on what the supplies are.

Vincent Hiscox: 28:11

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, fabulous service. And I and I can see, you know, from you know, from your enthusiasm, it's something that you feel kind of quite strongly about being able to offer this service. Yeah. And I wrote down 240 recipes. So I mean that's amazing. Yeah, that's a lot. You know, if people can't find, and of course it's not 240 every week, but it's rotating through 240, which gives people the opportunity to find, you know, to find their favourites, as you were saying. Yeah. And and at the same time working on their health and their wellness, working on, okay, if they're dieting, they're working on their diet. So it's it's a very uh straightforward way for people to take control of that. And for some people that might just be a short-term thing. You know, they might need to do it for a certain time, and then when they find exactly what works, what doesn't work for them, then okay, they can maybe go off it. But then I'm sure on the other side of that is that the convenience of what you're doing, the quality of what you're doing, then means that it's always an option that people can take. Yeah. You know, they arrive home from work or they they know they're gonna be fully sort of charged at a particular time and they have less time to do the food preparation. Yeah. So then they can turn to you. Yeah.

Tommy Leung: 29:37

Yeah. So we really want to give people that flexibility. So you have the meals, and like people feel like, oh, it's nice. I always have a good meal at home. So I don't have to stress about you know going out to shop or even ordering food pan that you have to wait for it, or you know, you have to make a lot of choices. So now you pick your meals once per week, and then you know, they're coming and you have them in your fridge and they're ready to go when you need to. And then, you know, a lot of people travel so you can pause. Pause or skip any time. And so some people like, oh, this week I want four meals, and next week I want eight meals. And then the week after I'm traveling, I'm not having any meals, and then I'll come back again. So we really want to give people that kind of flexibility. And we also have a nutritionist, uh Martin. Uh so he's the person that uh like connects with all the customers and uh you know chats with them, reminds them to pick meals. That's a big thing every week to remind all the customers to pick their meals. So yeah, I really enjoy it. It's really fun. And we have so much, like, you know, we try to take things step by step. You know, it's like in the beginning we wanted to fix the food. Okay, we did that, and then we want to fix the deliveries, and now we're working on the packaging. So we soon we have new packaging coming out that's custom made for us. So we know we have the compartments in the right sizes that we need them to be, and it's also paper-based. And this has taken us years to reach to have like a sustainable package that also keeps the meals fresh and is the right size. So in the end, we just had to custom design our own tray, uh, which is coming quite soon. Um just it's so much fun to just keep improving it.

Vincent Hiscox: 31:05

Yeah, yeah. And I mean it keeps coming up from everything that you're saying is that you are totally customer-centric.

Tommy Leung: 31:13

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 31:13

Is that a fair is that a fair comment?

Tommy Leung: 31:15

Yeah, 100%.

Vincent Hiscox: 31:16

Yeah. So I mean, if you know, if customers uh have particular choices, they can get in touch with you. If you know, if they've got questions, I'm sure they can get in touch with you. So it's it's really a sort of then becomes a kind of two-way relationship.

Tommy Leung: 31:32

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 31:33

I thank you so much for sharing all of that. Super information. And from the you know, from the listener's point of view, then I would say that it gives people the option to eat healthy food uh and also to know what it is they're eating, but also when there are sort of dietary requirements, there's everything in what you're doing to help them. Yeah. So absolutely great. If I turn it around now from the point of view of okay, that's how you're helping your clients, what would be your recommendation? You've been in this now for several years, what would be your recommendation for the clients? What what would you say the clients should be doing to make things better for themselves? And I know you're not a health coach, but so I'm not asking you a health coach question, but I mean, from you know, from what you do, what can clients do to help themselves?

Tommy Leung: 32:33

So I'm very much into self-help and self-improvement. And uh but I always think of it from my perspective, like what can we do better to help the clients? You know, so like you know, a lot of people like they have the healthy meals, but then the snacks, you know, that's where it's leaking in. So that's we added like a snacks plant. So we can offer, like, okay, here's some healthy snacks that you can have, so you always have something good on hand. What they can do better is actually eat more fermented foods. So there's a lot of focus on gut health now. So we try to provide more fiber, but you should also have some fermented food in the diet, you know, like some sauerkraut or kimchi or yogurt, and just keep that gut gut health going. I think a lot of people would probably see a lot of benefits from that.

Vincent Hiscox: 33:12

Yeah, I think you've answered the question. Yeah. I mean, you've answered the question by saying you're providing super healthy meals, then it's you know, it's for the clients to choose them. And they help themselves by choosing the meals that you're providing.

Tommy Leung: 33:27

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 33:27

And I mean, the the the thing that you added on there in terms of fermentation, and we'll get on to that one a little bit later. I mean, for sure. Fermented products have been in you know many different civilizations and many different cultures for so long. Yeah. And the thing about gut health is that if you get your gut health correct and your gut health is doing what it should be doing, then it changes everything. Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy Leung: 33:55

Yeah, definitely.

Vincent Hiscox: 33:56

Yeah. I had somebody on the podcast a few weeks ago and he just said, Well, you know, that's it. You sort out the gut and you sort out the body.

Tommy Leung: 34:03

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 34:04

That was his kind of approach.

Tommy Leung: 34:06

Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 34:06

In terms of what you're doing, not only are you giving meals which are nutritious meals, which those in themselves will uh help the gut to be healthy. Then you can add on top of that the sort of fermented food. So let's let's get into the fermented foods.

Tommy Leung: 34:25

Yeah, okay. Yeah, so I mean, I got into fermented foods mainly from the flavor. Like I was interested in fermenting it to create so you know, fermentation is really amazing because you can take something like a soybean, you ferment it and it becomes miso, or you ferment it and it becomes soy sauce. And how does it go from a plain, you know, soybean into these amazing like umami sauces? It's incredible, right? So being that I got into it from the flavor aspect that we wanted to make something unique and and to control it ourselves. So, you know, like a lot of Chinese food, it's like it's fresh ingredients combined with a fermented sauce. So, you know, you have like some fresh veggies and meat, and then you have a soy sauce or like a miso sauce or a do banjang or oyster sauce, and it's all these fermented sauces. And most of them are made by these big, big industrial companies. And in the end, it just kind of tastes the same everywhere. But what we wanted to do is ferment ourselves and create our own flavors and control the ingredients that are going into those. Uh, but it's now lately that I've been like getting into the the health benefits of fermentation as well, with the gut health. And you know, honestly, you feel so much better. If you have some fermented food every day, you just feel better. Like uh it really, I mean, it it really, really works, right? So and another aspect with fermentation is like I call it that it's alchemy. So you can take something that's very low value, like uh like a grape or some grains, and you know, create it into a very high-value bottle of wine. You ferment it into like a cognac or something that people really appreciate. But you know, the input there is very simple. It's a grain, it's a grape, it's not not something that's super expensive. Uh, but the end product becomes something that people really value. And then one more aspect that we work on with fermentation is about sustainability. So, you know, a third of all the food that's produced is going to waste, right? So it's all these trimmings. You know, you you peel the potatoes, you trim the broccoli, um, those are are getting tossed out. Uh so a third of all food, it's just a huge number. And actually, with fermentation, you can ferment a lot of these food scraps and create really delicious foods from it. And that's another huge kind of aspect that we're exploring uh with with Hakobako. Great. All these parts are so much fun, right? Like the health side, it's great, the flavor side is amazing, uh, the sustainable side's great, and the business aspect is also great. So yeah, fermentation is really, really fun.

Vincent Hiscox: 36:52

Yeah. And how did you get into that? I mean, what what you you explained at the beginning, but uh it slipped my memory now. No, how is it you got into that?

Tommy Leung: 37:00

We wanted to create gluten-free sauces actually to ferment by ourselves. So I wanted to make like an oyster sauce or a soy sauce that uh that we're not purchasing, but we're fermenting ourselves. And I started reading about fermentation, and uh I read the Noma Guide to Fermentation. So they're NOMA is the top restaurant in the world for I don't know, many, many years. And they're uh based in Denmark, and they're you know taking these Nordic ingredients and using Asian fermentation, a lot of Asian fermentation techniques uh to create brand new foods and flavor experiences and you know the foraging and fermenting and doing super cool stuff. And I went there. I don't know if you've seen that book, but if you haven't, like it blew my mind. The foods that they were creating was just insane. Like I'd never seen anything like it. So I was so inspired by that and thought, okay, I also want to I'll I have to get into this and learn more. So give me the title of the book. Sorry. It's called the NOMA guide to fermentation. A NOMA guide. Yeah, N-O-M-A, GNOME, and then guide to fermentation.

Vincent Hiscox: 37:59

We'll put it in the show notes.

Tommy Leung: 38:01

Yeah, yeah. It's it's fantastic. If you're into food and the fermentation is great. So that's sort of on the culinary side. You know, they're a top restaurant in the world. So a lot of the like um, you know, Michelin star chefs and mixologists, they're fermenting, creating these brand new like food and flavor experiences. Um, but then there's also kind of the traditional fermentation techniques, you know, it's like, you know, like you said, people have been doing it for thousands of years, and they used to adjust to the seasons and the environment. So, you know, after like let's say in autumn, there's a lot of apples. So they harvest apples, they make cider, uh, they make vinegar. Uh so it's a way to preserve and and and take care of those uh ingredients. But then you know, you have to have the right conditions for that to happen. So, you know, they put wine into into cellars or cheese into caves, and it's all to get the right environment for the fermentation process to happen. Uh so basically what we did with Hakobako is to build a chamber that can emulate those conditions. And you can go from hot to cold and really use temperature as like uh to fine-tune the fermentation process. So let's say you want to ferment uh a yogurt and you want it more funky and more sour, then you can ferment it for a longer time at a lower temperature, or maybe you want to speed it up, you could raise the temperature of the chamber and get the process done faster. So it's really a way for chefs to get consistency in the fermentation process. So it's all about temperature control. Um and with the temperature, you can really create amazing different ferments and flavors and really get the same kind of results every time. Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 39:33

Yeah. Well one thing I'm interested in. How big are these chambers?

Tommy Leung: 39:37

They're big. They're like uh the size of a large stand-up commercial uh single-door fridge. Okay. So it's it's taller than I am, it's almost two meters tall. And uh so our sort of our idea is to, you know, we're building these for for chefs, mixologists, and you know, the professional market. And at some point we want to build a home version so that people can use this to ferment the home. That wasn't my question. That was the next question.

Vincent Hiscox: 40:05

Okay. Yeah. So basically, you everything that you do now you're developing for let's say on a chef level or a kitchen level, I mean professional kitchen level. But there's an idea in in your mind that maybe one day you can take take this down to the individual or the sort of yeah, the home version of it. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely tremendous. A lot of the foods that we eat we kind of take for granted, you know. Just take yogurt, for example. I mean, I I take a yogurt um every morning and okay. Because I know that it's a fermented product and I know it's good for my gut. But a lot of people would be eating these different foods without any sort of understanding of of what goes on behind it. But what you've done is moved into this fermentation process that it's not an industrial level, it's more on a, I would say, what it sounds to me like, is like on a kitchen level. Yeah. So if somebody has a a large kitchen, they've got something that they can invest in that can help them with doing their fermented foods that will be used in their menus. Is is that right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so this is it today, it's not like for Mr. Joe public, but potentially that's coming in the future.

Tommy Leung: 41:25

Yeah, exactly.

Vincent Hiscox: 41:26

Yeah. And you know, for this, you you've got into uh this fermentation. What what were the sort of steps in doing that? I mean, over what time period have you been doing that?

Tommy Leung: 41:38

Yeah, so we started in 2019. Uh so it's been almost six years. Uh and you know, I had a background working with food, so but I never built a hardware product before. Right. And uh if I knew how difficult it would have been, I I don't think I would have started. Right. Um, you know, so it's a huge chamber. We design everything from scratch. We have software, so this is like a touch screen so you can control the temperatures and times. And we created all of that from scratch. And then we started building prototypes. And then we talked to people that were fermenting here in Hong Kong and uh, you know, built like a really early, ugly prototype that we put in their kitchen and they started using it. And we're like, is this useful for you? And they're like, Yeah, yeah, we love it. But it keeps breaking. It's like, okay, I need to fix this. All right, you know, the temperature variation is too high, or we can't see into it. So we started building prototypes and and let you know people use them. And then we kind of studied what what uh what they needed and kept uh iterating and working on it. And to get the early working prototypes was quite easy, but to get to the commercial stage, you know, it needs to be a machine that is consistent, doesn't break down, and the chefs can get consistent results every single time, right? So some of these processes are fermenting for many weeks or months, so if it breaks down or doesn't work, like it's a disaster. A restaurant can't have that. So to get to this launched product was very challenging for us.

Vincent Hiscox: 42:57

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. So I just checked the dates. So you said that you started doing this in 2019. So this is six years in development. Yeah. And how do you feel about it now? Do you feel like you are stable or is it still steps to go?

Tommy Leung: 43:14

I mean, there's a lot of steps to go, but I I can see the light now. So, you know, we're getting a lot of a lot of requests and more and more orders are coming in, and people need this and want this. So I'm happy that you know it took us a while to build it, but we're also kind of first on the market with this. And luckily, a lot of you know the best chefs and bartenders and and food brands are using the machine now. Uh, so that's really, really fun. We still have a lot of work to do, but uh super. Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 43:41

And okay, the obvious question, when would this consumer version be available? I don't know.

Tommy Leung: 43:49

Uh I don't I haven't done the groundwork yet. Like I wanted to, and at some point we started like, oh, we should just build a consumer one. But you know, I need to we need to take these steps and like let the I call them like the superstars of the culinary world. So like all these chefs and then bartenders and food developers, let them use it, develop it, and really understand that and build from there until we bring it to the home home consumer version. Uh so we haven't really done that groundwork to sit and talk to like home fermenters and understand how they're doing it, what do they need. So I think that's been really core that you know we don't just go and build, I mean, because we actually we've we've we've played around a lot with the home version, like made different designs, but I think you have to do the work and understand the customer's problem and then build the product instead of building a product and trying to squeeze it into yeah, it shouldn't be you shouldn't be a solution looking for a problem. Like you have to focus a lot on what is a problem, and we know that on the professional side, but we don't really know that on the consumer side yet. So it's probably gonna take a few years. Yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 44:51

Yeah. And we kind of, you know, this question, my next question, in terms of challenges, you know, I'm sure you've had some challenges as you've been going along on your journey. What's been your biggest challenge and how did you overcome it?

Tommy Leung: 45:08

I think funding has been the hardest for us. So to build a hardware product, it takes a lot of money. And uh we didn't have sufficient funding, so somehow we've been somehow we made it without ever really having the funding that should be needed to build something like this. You know, lucky I knew all along what we needed to build. So that hasn't changed through all these all these years. It's like, okay, this is the problem is with the temperature control, and this is who we're targeting, and they are they're the ones that want it. So it's been quite nice with Hakobaka because we started with a customer before we built the product. Like we knew, okay, this is like who are we targeting first? Are we targeting these chefs at high-end restaurants and hotels and bartenders and food brands that want to create something that also have the budget to buy one of these machines because they're they're quite expensive, right? Um, so that never changed. So we haven't been like, you know, like changing direction. We've we've had one solid direction that that uh and luckily that's been right. So I'm happy like everything, the groundwork was was correct. Like we knew we talked to them, understood that they wanted it, and understood, okay, if we build it, will you buy it? And they said, okay, yes, they will. But along the way, you know, we ran out of funding. So, you know, I went out, got a job, and you know, it's really taking us a long time because we didn't have the the money in place to really push through to get the production. Yeah. Um, yeah.

Vincent Hiscox: 46:25

Yeah, but I mean that's a fabulous story. It's a sort of a never give up story. Yeah. I mean, you you've been very confident in terms of your vision of what you wanted to do, even going to sort of early prototypes quite quickly. You know, even sort of, I guess if you were running out of funding, then some of your money was going into this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, everything that's available most probably gets gets poured in. So, I mean, what would be your big learning from that?

Tommy Leung: 46:51

Well, honestly, I think going back to that big challenge, I think because I was running two companies at the same time, still doing that. And uh I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. Like, that's terrible. And I wish I didn't. I did, but now it's too late, I feel like, because now I have these businesses running and I'm I'm still working on both of them, and luckily they're both growing. But it's a bit like kicking trying and kick a football, you know, it takes a lot of focus. But if you try to kick two footballs at the same time, it's gonna drive you crazy. Yeah. So for me, it's been really difficult to have two businesses and you know jump in between them. It's taken me several years to understand how I can do that. So now I kind of have uh different locations. So Hakubako has an office and Mealti has an office. So some days I work with Mealti and I only work with Mealti. I'm not answering Hakubako emails or taking any meetings on those days. And then the Hakobako days, I'm only focusing on Hakubako. In the beginning, I tried to like sit and multitask. So emails were coming in and calls were coming in, meetings were coming in, and I just stacked them and it just drove me crazy. And I was so inefficient, you know, to just try to do everything at the same time. So I definitely recommend don't do two businesses, like just focus on one string, follow through, get it through the goal, and then okay, take the next step. But if you have to like split in between, like it helped me a lot to have like different devices as well. So like I have um well, I have my same same laptop, but like you know, different locations that I'm working on it. And I have one like uh iPad that I use for reading, I have an ebook reader that I use for reading books, uh, and I have different locations where I do different work. And sometimes when I do need to mix, I sit in a coffee shop. So I never like split up the I I try not to co-mingle the work. And same with like uh like I don't have a Hacko Bush tobacco machine in the mealful kitchen. And uh, you know, even though there's a lot of benefits to doing it, it drives me crazy if I try to have like, you know, it's like it's those people that have two families or two wives, or you just have to keep everything really, really separate. Yeah, so that's what I do.

Vincent Hiscox: 48:55

No, no, that I mean that's great. And I think, you know, from the listener's point of view, I think that's a it's a super message. You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't expect that many of the listeners would have the complexity of sort of business that you've got. But this concept of saying one tech for one thing and another tech for another thing, yeah, I mean that sounds like you know, it sounds like solid advice.

Tommy Leung: 49:18

Yeah, you know, because I've always loved gaming. So I love computer gaming. And when I grow up, I'm always gaming. And I'm the kind of person when I start gaming, I don't stop. Like I get addicted to it, and I just want to keep gaming. And at some points I tried to have like games on my computer, but then somehow, like, you know, like unconsciously, when you open the laptop to sit down to work, you're thinking of the games, right? Because it's right there. So splitting it up is it's like a it's it's been it's amazing. So you should like you can game, but then just have a gaming computer that's somewhere else, and uh yeah, it's it's helped me a lot to keep focused because I'm easily distracted.

Vincent Hiscox: 49:50

Yeah, and even that in itself is is a super super bit of advice, both you know, for listeners and then listeners that have got children, make sure that if there is something which is used for gaming, then it's used just for gaming. Yeah, and and then that allows the separation. We're kind of coming towards the end of the podcast, and I and I feel like we could go on for longer. So, in terms of where you are now and it's still working progress, what would be the key messages that would come out of that for you?

Tommy Leung: 50:26

Focusing on the customer and enjoying what you're doing. You know, there's a lot of challenges, but you know, I really love what we what we do. Uh so I think that like focus on the customer, make sure you're solving someone's problem and hopefully that they're willing to pay for the solution to that problem. And uh yeah, and then just just enjoy enjoy the ride.

Vincent Hiscox: 50:47

Yeah, absolutely fabulous. So I'm sure there are gonna be listeners that want to get in touch with you. So, how can people get in touch with you?

Tommy Leung: 50:54

Uh so you can email me at Tommy at Hakobacka.com for Mealfi, it's mealfi.com.hk.

Vincent Hiscox: 51:02

Yeah, absolutely great. So I'll get those from you, Tommy, and we'll put those into the show notes. So I I'd love to say I've really enjoyed uh talking to you this morning. Uh learned lots of things. And I think from you know, certainly from the listener's point of view, what you're doing with MealThi is a super service. Uh uh. If listeners haven't heard of this before, it's something they should go ahead and go and check out. Especially if they're looking to do any kind of calibration in terms of you know what they're eating and their nutrition. Yeah. So thank you very much. Thank you so much. Super podcast with Tommy and so many takeaways. Number one, we are all so similar. There are small cultural differences. Number two, a diet that is high in fiber, high in protein, and delicious is recommended to lose weight. Number three, variety in meal choices alongside high quality are key to achieve optimal health. Number four, calculating calories is not so easy. Using a meal service makes this easier and good value for money is the icing on the cake. Number five, eat more fermented foods such as sauerkraut, kimchi, yogurt, miso. They are full of flavor and really good for your health. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. Please share with your family and friends. You're welcome to email me with feedback, comments and questions at Vincent.com. Would you enjoy getting a short weekly email from me where I share simple tips that you can put into practice to improve your health? Subscribe to Vincent's Wellness Newsletter at vincent1cd.substack.com If you are looking to get into the best shape of your life, to look and feel your best, visit my coaching website procoach.app forward slash vincent dash or discourse. All of the references to the website will be in the show notes. And don't forget to share the episode with a friend.