Mid-Life Mayhem; A guide to functioning in your 40's & beyond
This podcast features us having candid conversations about how to navigate all things mid life, including:
- Relationships
- Mental Health - anxiety, stress, depression, grief, fears, trauma (including generational trauma), estrangement, aging, parental aging and more
- Nervous system care & daily practices
- Sex
- Perimenopause & Cycle syncing
Mid-Life Mayhem; A guide to functioning in your 40's & beyond
From Detroit Roots to Private School: My Real Money Story
*This is an unedited episode I recorded with my Dad <3*
A mentor/colleague's offhand comment—“you must have a trust fund”—opens a raw, revealing conversation about money myths, private school optics, and what wealth actually feels like from the inside. We trace the route from exposure to wealthy circles to the lasting sense of being “other,” and how that friction shaped a career, a value system, and a stubborn commitment to fairness over flash.
We dig into the practices that build real security: paying off a mortgage early, cutting up credit cards, resisting lifestyle creep, and treating debt aversion as resilience rather than fear. Then we put numbers in their proper place. Is wealth a net worth target or a lived experience of time freedom, repair money, and steady breathing when the unexpected happens? We bring three lenses—financial, lifestyle, and emotional—and test them against messy reality, including why almost no one with means admits they’re rich.
The story isn’t just about money; it’s about identity and ethics. We talk impostor feelings, undercharging to avoid scrutiny, and the late epiphanies that come from seeing peers up close and realizing you belong at the table. We examine leadership styles—the axe swingers who break things versus the builders who align people first—and how pace and consent turn change into progress. We also interrogate generational wealth: why many fortunes fade, how structure and stewardship matter, and why character beats optics when choices get hard, whether that’s skipping an unnecessary loan or telling a 14-year-old the limo can wait.
If you’ve ever felt mislabeled by your background, hesitant to charge your worth, or unsure where prudence ends and fear begins, this conversation offers tools and language to reset your money story. Listen, reflect, and share your take: what’s your working definition of “enough”? If this resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it to someone rewriting their own narrative.
You can reach us here:
Katie:
Website:
KatieKovaleski.com
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/coach_katiek/
Linkedin:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katiekovaleski/
Wavier & Release of Liability and Disclaimer: The information provided by the therapist(s) is not intended, nor is implied to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice. The listener is advised to always seek the advice of their health care practitioner or other qualified health care provider with questions regarding medical conditions, or the mental health and welfare of the listener. I (listener) accept that Kathryn Kovaleski is not liable for any injury, or damages, to person or property, resulting from listening to this podcast.
Yeah. Okay, your show.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And action. So we're just gonna talk, we're just gonna have a conversation and then record it. So basically we're we're gonna start by me just saying to you again what I told you yesterday or the other day on the phone, and you can laugh at it again.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Remember when I called you the other day and told you that for many years now, people have assumed to my face that um I function off of a trust fund.
SPEAKER_01:I do remember that.
SPEAKER_00:How did you react?
SPEAKER_01:I couldn't I I wouldn't be able to forget that. Yeah, I I thought that was you laughed. I did laugh. I I laughed because it's so far from the truth. You know, your your great-grandparents all came from Poland on the boat, basically. And your two grand great-grandfathers both worked in blue-collar jobs in the auto industry for their careers, their jobs, and their their wives didn't work, and and their kids, I mean, the education-wise, the highest anybody attained was a graduate master's degree in for teaching. And so your grandparents on my side were both teachers, and your grandparents on the other side were again worked in a blue-collar, white-collar sort of a management job, and then as your grandmother Marilyn never really had a career. So I don't know where I don't know where that money would have come from. I wish I wished it had come from someplace, but sadly it didn't.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so the follow-up to that too, you mentioned um I I I think so. Some of this that we'll talk about today, I think are my own like biases, but um you mentioned part of this, and I've always felt a little bit judged about going to private school. Like that has come up throughout the course of my life. Oh, you're a private school kid. And there's a ton of assumptions that go with that. Um, but you you mentioned when we talked about this the other day after you stopped laughing about why you sent us to private schools.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and uh, you know, your your mother uh was dead set against uh public schools here in Florida at the time because she thought they weren't very good. She's probably right. I mean, she's probably right, she probably was. Uh although I have a lot of friends who sent the kids to public schools here, but she was dead set against it. And and and that was fine with me. Um and the and the but the major reason that one of the major reasons that I uh agreed with that, and particularly for Trinity, and I guess for Lake Highland too, but for Trinity in particular, was I I told you the other day, I've always had and still do uh a lack of comfort in uh uh dealing with people with a lot of money. It's just just part of my personality, my makeup. And I've always uh felt like or wondered if maybe I hadn't I wouldn't have done things at least somewhat differently and in my career and business if I hadn't had that what I viewed as a handicap. Um and so it was important for me that you and Michael both didn't have that, and and going to private school, prep school um offered that possibility because people excluded, many many of them have a lot of money, and it would it would give you that exposure to uh being comfort more comfortable in those those surroundings, um, which is which I have not had. So that was uh in addition to the educational quality for me was a good reason to do it. And um as I said to you the other day, maybe that's where maybe that's where it comes from. This these comments that you've been getting is that you uh are are are comfortable um in in dealing with those kinds of things. I I don't know, but it that's certainly one of the reasons that I was in favor of going, have your kids go to a prep school.
SPEAKER_00:And and interestingly, or maybe ironically, in a full circle loop around education, what I've learned in my education is that what's passed down to you like via subconscious programming has a more a bigger impact than the experiences you may have. So I always felt like, and we're gonna get into the nuances of talking about how wealth and generational wealth is actually defined and how there's a bit, I think, of like imposter syndrome happening, I think, like for you. I think the way that you see yourself and what you've done in the career you've had is different than what might be reflected if we ran your whole career and all of your finances through a machine that could print out if you fell into what's considered like wealthy versus non-wealthy, which is like the irony of it. Because when I started digging in financially to how wealth is actually defined, I was like, oh, okay, well, these some of these stats might um shock him a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yeah, well, maybe they will.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I I will As far as a trust fund goes, like we'll just unequivocally that has never happened for anyone listening. That did not happen. And one of the questions I wanted to ask you today was about um I am in in hindsight glad that I don't have a trust fund because I'm fairly certain that I would have just spent all of the money. And so I don't I don't think I was ever in a place until maybe like now where I could take like a really responsible stance in that because I've always had so many ideas and interests and things I want to pursue. And if I had access to a million dollars or millions of dollars prior to the age of 40, I probably would have started all kinds of like interesting businesses.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, but that's not but that's not spending it. That's that's making use of it. I mean there's a differ there's a difference. I mean, if you if and and I I think I think anybody who has access to that kind of money, um who who uses it that way, either in in one of two ways, either in starting new uh new businesses or or new efforts, or uh uh using it for uh charitable purposes. I I don't have a problem. I don't call that spending. That that for me, that's using those resources in in an appropriate way. Spending would be, you know, you go out and buy the 45,000 square foot house and new car every year.
SPEAKER_00:And that's I mean, for me, that would be I I might have tried to do that too in my 20s. So like it would have grown my choices would have grown to reflect how much I had grown as well. But early access to a lot of I I don't think um I don't know how it helps other people, but I think uh in my young 20s, that would not have been well and and and again that's it is gonna depend upon how the finances are set up because even in our case, well we didn't have any uh you know a trust fund in our estate documents, we had a trust set up for the two of you in case we didn't survive, but you couldn't get to it until you were 35. Or you were you guys would have to be dead.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Well, we we have to be dead, but number one, but number two, you that's right. Because I was responsible for those reasons, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So if we kind of circle all the way back, so being at Trinity, I I hated being in private school. I hated it.
SPEAKER_01:And and it's such a some of it private private school in general or Trinity in particular?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I would I would say Trinity in particular, um, mostly because I had loved being at Lake Highland and felt like I had been plucked up in an environment I had was thriving in.
SPEAKER_01:I yeah, I I I was aware of that.
SPEAKER_00:And I think it it definitely tainted it tainted things for me. And then I became maybe from the filter of being tainted, I started seeing, or maybe it was just in like age, but I think a lot of the way that I regarded the people there was a reflection of maybe some of the things or discomfort levels that you felt around people like that. Like I came out of there thinking like, wow, if you have enough money, you can get away with anything. Well, um And I didn't feel like I was the one getting away with it. I was just watching happen.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not sure I go not sure I go that far, but certainly it it'd be foolish to argue against the fact that having lots of resources allows you to um fly of fly above the crowd in in many ways. That'd be stupid to argue that.
SPEAKER_00:Um was that something that you wanted us to learn?
SPEAKER_01:That having enough money means you can get away with stuff?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, yeah, no. It was more a matter of being comfortable or being able to work with people who who who had the money and had that attitude. Because the fact is, if you're gonna be successful in a business someplace, you're gonna run into those people. And and for me, it was difficult to deal with that. And I didn't want that handicap out there for you guys.
SPEAKER_00:So let's talk about where that discomfort comes from, right?
SPEAKER_01:Because if we boil it up, but but yeah, but hang on one, but but let me let me in defense of Trinity the and not so much Trinity, but but the whole experience. One of the things I remember uh from when you first went to up to Charleston was you found that you were way ahead of the people in your class in terms of in terms of exposure to stuff, writing certainly was the and you ended up, as I recall, tutoring, helping some of those kids because they were behind you. And so for me, that was the kind of the proof of the pudding. I mean, it it it you you may have resented it, and I understood that, but in terms of what you got out of it that you could apply later on, I I thought it was And the double-edged sword that I'll meet you with there is that my response to thinking I'd already learned it was that I only went to class less than half the time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00:And so in the podcast that was released this week, I talk about how um like the beginnings of my career started and started in college, and how for the first two years, I like was so excited to learn that no one cared if you came to class. And I had this idea that I'd already learned so much of what I was being taught I didn't need to be there. And then that spilled over into sophomore year, which I did need to be there. And so I learned it the hard way a little bit. And that was also about exploring like freedom and not having people tell you what to do. But um, the double-edged sort of like feeling like I'd already learned it was and I just really wasn't paying attention. So there's that. And I think the middle ground is like a good place where you're you're you're able to pay attention and learn and not struggle. There were a lot of kids in my class that were struggling who were coming from like South Carolina public schools that could barely read. Like they were really struggling. Um so I did, I I I understand the point. I did, I did receive a good education. And part of that was because, like at Trinity, you couldn't people always ask. I think Jeremiah asked me too, have you ever skipped school in high school? And I was like, Are you kidding? I'm sure there was an alarm would sound a gate would come down on your head. Like, there's no way. Like we, you know, ever we were always accounted for. You couldn't, you couldn't really fail there because people would be on top of you. Like you just, you're there to learn and they're gonna make sure you learn one way or another.
SPEAKER_01:Um well and that's the and that's the critical, I mean, that that is the critical difference, I think, is that you just said it right. It's a very, it's a positive kind of thing. You're there to learn, and that's what and they're there to teach you, and they want to be sure that happens. It's not a matter of enforcing the rules, it's a matter of our our job and your job is to learn this stuff and to leave here better. And anyway, okay, we'll go on from there.
SPEAKER_00:So if we boil it down, and you know, we're all humans, we're all equitable, like what where does the discomfort around wealthy or ultra wealthy come from for you? And would you ever even be able to recognize in yourself, like, like when do we quote make it? Like, would there have been a certain number that you'd have to hit as a salary? Or like what are the qualifiers? Like you could have been standing in a room with people that you felt uncomfortable with based on their wealth, and perhaps they live above their means. Perhaps so wealth is defined in so many different ways, but it's more of like uh a limiting belief that I'm not like them, or just not even limiting, but I'm not them. I'm me, I belong with these people, and they're them. They belong with those people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I'm not, I don't know that I can, I mean, I don't know that I can answer. I I uh answer where that uh reservation comes from. I I I I I don't know other than um I grew up in a very middle class, I mean, at the time when there was a middle class, middle class environment. Father was a teacher, uh, mother didn't work until I was uh I guess in college, full-time anyway, and they're both teachers. And um while we didn't lack for anything, uh we also didn't live luxuriously. And um and uh so you got a very clear appreciation for uh the value of things, money and things, because often we had to go out and earn the money to get extra stuff. Um and uh and it didn't there was no resentment, that was just the way it was, and and it and you you that's what you did. Um and and so when I I guess when I saw then growing up and less than because I didn't get that much exposure to it, but later on, people who seem to have, and you're right, people do live beyond their means. I understand I do understand that. I've often said that I see people buy these massive houses, they have a lot more toleration for debt than I have, and I think that's a big piece of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, talk more about that. I think, and that was one of the questions I wanted to talk about. I think the how people tolerate debt and the way that you see debt.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I you know I we we like cutting up credit cards. Yeah, we we paid, I I paid off lump lump sum, paid off our mortgage when I turned 50, the day my my 50th birthday, I walked into the credit unit and wrote a check, and have never had a mortgage since. And and that was that was always kind of an objective, uh, get get it paid off. Number one, so you haven't well, the biggest thing is they haven't got to worry about it. So things, and maybe this is the maybe here's the difference. Or here's the here's the attitudinal difference between people with a lot of money and those of us who didn't have as much, is uh while we didn't plan our lives around the worst possible things happening, certainly from a from the housing perspective, that was kind of an approach. Pay it off as fast as you can. So if everything goes to hell, you've at least got a place to live. And having got to worry about paying somebody for it is done. And uh so I said my when I turned 50, I walked into the credit union and wrote a check and said, here it is. And haven't had one since. Um and the same thing with cars. I've uh we don't I don't finance cars, we pay cash and get get and get out of it. And and again, it's I'm not planning for Armageddon, but you know, given, for example, what happened in 2008-2009 with the real estate market, wasn't all that bad a strategy, you know, although we were out of it by that time because I turned 50 and 98, so we were past that, but still, uh it it wait the lessons there. And so uh it came from growing up that way, I think. Um you uh I didn't have a toleration for debt, and I think there's a lot of that out there that doesn't w work for me. Um and just overall spending. Uh you see some of these houses being built in the rest, and you think, who are these people and how can there be that many of them? And if you had that much money, or if I had that much money, I'd like to think that I would not be building a 40,000 square foot house, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think that's the difference. I think that the wealth, if we if we go back, do you remember the first person or people you were around that you thought, wow, they have a lot of money? And how did you know?
SPEAKER_01:My uncle Fred.
SPEAKER_00:And and how did you know he had a lot of money?
SPEAKER_01:Because he lived at 76th and Park Avenue in New York.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So you know that they're wealthy by the way they live externally.
SPEAKER_01:That that's what you're that's right. Good observation. That's right. And because the well, that's right. And that's the and that's the only real way, it's the only way that most of us have to judge those things. Because I I mean, I I don't have access to his tax records, so I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00:And exactly.
SPEAKER_01:So so what if what if perhaps I see I see I see I think I see where you're going with it, right?
SPEAKER_00:And so I think that's the differentiator. I think that even if you had the kind of money that you would define as having wealth, you wouldn't qualify it as being wealthy unless you were living lavishly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, well, yeah, I think that you say me, when you say you, you're talking about me in specific way.
SPEAKER_00:Right, because like with Fred, like he he lived it lavishly, right?
SPEAKER_01:He had a and and I think and I think Katie, most people who have a lot of money will tell you that they aren't rich.
SPEAKER_00:This is where we're circling to.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, when when when's the last time you heard anybody publicly or even privately to you admit that they've that they're rich?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I have clients that uh well, maybe you do have clients.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe that's why they are clients. But but it but you know, I think of the number of people we know around here who I would say are pretty wealthy, pretty well off. I'd be willing to bet you that if you they're if there are 10, maybe one with push came to shove would say, yeah, we're we're we're doing okay. Most of them will not.
SPEAKER_00:And that's what I found. And working with people with various levels of money, it doesn't matter how much money they end up because they end up one, either upgrading their lifestyle to where they don't have money. There, if if you're making half a mil a month, but you're you're spending that on your lavish lifestyle, then then you're still paycheck to paycheck.
SPEAKER_01:Well, so it's so it comes, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:It comes down to it's a mindset. And it like you're you're interesting to me because and I'll let you fill people in on your career track trajectory in a minute, because you have never you live under your means, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Always have.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So this the the conversation about wealth is so interesting. Again, we're gonna circle back to like I have never had a trust fund and I'll never have one. But and when we really start digging into it, you have programming and beliefs around like I'm not them. But as we start to poke the bubble of them, it's like, well, what is the number then? And if no one outwardly says I'm rich because everyone has a scarcity mindset in some way or another, but to keep up with the lifestyle I've accumulated, or I've put away money and been responsible, but I'm still a little scared that something might happen and I might not have enough. More often than not, people have a really limiting program around money.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's and that also speaks to why I have a really interesting client who's a wealth manager, and he was like, generational wealth is a joke. He's like, by the second generation, like something like 78% of the kids, they burn through the money. By it goes on one more generation, I think it goes up to 90 something percent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and that's true, and that's true of whether the whether it's inherited wealth per se, or whether it's inherited business wealth, right? Typically the by the third generation is gone. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So if you trace it back to the people who actually made the money, they didn't they usually didn't start off super wealthy.
SPEAKER_01:No, uh that well, I think that's uh I think that's well they didn't typically that's right, they're first gen. So they so that they didn't. Um and and having said that I think I think some of that third generation thing depends upon how big a number we're talking about to start with.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And in number one, and number two, how it's how it's structured. Um so I mean the Rockefellers are still living on what John D. Rockefeller made back in the 1900s. They're there's they're still doing okay, and they're way past the third generation. So it does depend on what on how big the number is. So I I would dispute with your financial planning guy. Uh generational wealth is a real thing, depending upon how big that number is.
SPEAKER_00:Right. He did speak to that, but he said the research had shown that like less than 10 families in the world had managed to pass it. I forget what the the the year span was, but it's a very small number. We've never been able to maintain that. And and I think historically, not one single family across the span of in the entire history we're we're aware of has ever been able to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that doesn't surprise me. Um but but again, it depends on how big the number is.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So if we circle back to we're gonna revisit the sort of that wealth is more about a mindset and beliefs than it is about a number. Um like walk us through sort of getting married and your career trajectory and how that influenced, how needing to make money influenced the choices you made in your career, as well as your timeline for having kids.
SPEAKER_01:Well, um my choice of a career was kind of by default. Um we were gonna get married after my second year in law school, and I was at Illinois, and I was a Michigan resident, and in order to get in-state tuition for my last year in law school, my third year in law school, I needed to show financial independence. Uh and so my second year in law school, I got a couple of jobs. One one was a bouncer in a bar, which was not the career path, and the second one, I found a law clerk job at a small company owned by a bunch of lawyers in Illinois, uh, who were looking for a they were looking for a law clerk to do legal work and some other stuff in the office during the school year, and then to travel and do in fact sales, marketing, building the company on the road in the summertime. And despite the fact that I was not a very good law student, I got the job and um and was pretty good at it. Not the law clerk side so much, um, but the but the the business side of it and uh visiting lawyers around the state and building up the the business.
SPEAKER_00:And um what did you enjoy about that? Like what was what made you feel like you were good at it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, we signed up a lot of people, and and and that's I mean that was that was the gauge. You know, we were we were out trying to build up the number of lawyers who used the company, and we did pretty well with that. And um and where uh where I'm may not be always comfortable in a large group of people, one-on-one, I can be pretty effective if I know what I if I know what we're trying to do. And so I sort of enjoyed. And number one, and number two, lawyers have a reputation that they don't deserve sometimes, are as a group pretty interesting people. And it was always an education for me to go visit these guys in their offices and see how they did things and learn what their interests and background just they're interesting people, they're educated, they're you typically have to be interested and involved in their communities, and so it was uh interesting to to see from that perspective. And at the time, uh I was still thinking that I might end up practicing law there. So it was interesting to get a background seeing these guys in their in their offices and what they were doing. And then after being there during law school, uh it appeared to me as if if I could delay graduating by six months or not quite a year, there may be a second full-time position there for me. And so I did that. I I cut back on my hours at school.
SPEAKER_00:You stopped going to class too, just like me.
SPEAKER_01:No, I didn't stop going to class, I just didn't have as many classes to go to. Um no. Uh and uh and was doing working a couple of days a week during the school year because I was only going only had class three days a week. And uh and in fact, the there was a full-time job at the end of that, so I stayed there for another year plus. And then um we moved to Wichita, and this goes to your thing about what would you do, what do you do for money, what do you do for money? Um we we were pretty comfortable with Champagne and we were doing okay. Well, the guy I worked for was kind of a jerk, but um when the thing in Wichita came along, it was a smaller company, but it was in nine states. This was a kind of the it was the C well, they didn't have a CEO, but it was the it was the chief executive officer. And um bit everything. I've you know, administrative, managerial, marketing, sales, legal, kind of the whole nine yards. It was just me, I was I was it. And um there was a lot of debate uh between uh my wife at that time, Becky at that time, and me, about should we do this? It was a substantial bump in pay, it was not quite double what I was making, but it was pretty close. Uh, but it was a farther away from family and farther away from what we knew and part of the country we didn't know at all, and kind of a big jump in responsibility and all those kinds of things. But um we, I think it was we, but certainly I made the decision that um it was worth the move to do that. And at the time, the the ethic, kind of prevailing ethic was you moved to where the job was. Um people didn't hesitate so much to do that. So we were there for three years, did okay, various things happened, and it was time to move. And we moved back to the east coast, after New York, near New Jersey area, uh, to work with a guy that I'd known from business. And um we were there for two years. Again, there was a debate about moving back to the east coast, but that that was more attractive to Becky than Wichita was. And um, but again, it was the job. We uh come to a point in Wichita where it was sort of untenable and we needed to do something because we had to, you know, put food on the table. And so we moved to New York and or New Jersey, and and we were there for two years. And then this whole industry that I was involved in with lawyers and the title insurance, title real real estate practice started in Florida, actually, coincidentally, the year I was born, 1948. And uh I had worked with the then president of the company on a project in Oklahoma when I was living in Wichita, and he currently likely saw. And there came a point after being in New York for about a year and a half, two years, where and and they own the company in New York, the Florida company did, where he came and said that they would like me to come down to Florida and they call it development. It was basically sales marketing, and run that for them here. That's where the Real big debate took place familial, family-wise, because Becky thought you nobody live in Florida until you retire or go there to die. And so she was sort of, if not dead set against, at least wasn't happy about it. But again, it was a step up, it was uh more money, and more and as importantly, much bigger operation and seemed like more room to grow. So we moved in 1980. And uh and after being here three or four years, three years, three and a half years, it appeared to me as if the then president who had hired me, brought me down here, was getting ready to retire. And so I took the Florida bar in 1984 with two small kids in the house and uh passed it uh in uh 84 and he announced his retirement. I think I passed it in February of 84, and he announced his retirement later that year. And um they did a uh national search and then up ended up with three finalists, myself and two other guys, one who was the general counsel for Tetley Inc. at the time, and they hired him as president in December or in uh August of 7084. And um December of 84. And I I stayed on in the marketing slash sales capacity. He was a real uh very smart guy um who who misread the organization terribly, and they fired him by May of 85. Wow uh without his even knowing it was gonna happen. He he walked into a board meeting, they went into an executive session, put it a fire on 20 to not 19 to 1, the one guy who didn't show up, walked into his office and said, You're done, and escorted him out. And then they did another search, only this time it was more or less internal, it was myself and one of our directors and uh their general and our general counselor, our lawyer, and I got the job in August of 85 and was there ever since. And um and so the the the the risk, the gamble that we took in moving to Florida, despite uh Becky's objections, paid off uh because it was uh we we eventually got to be the sixth largest underwriter in the country, and we're very successful here and and did a lot of really interesting, fun things, and it was uh unique experience. Um and again, we we moved again for the job. I mean that's what you did. Um you you followed the followed the money effectively and and the opportunity. I mean it was it was a bigger bigger job down here. So um and I was there until I retired basically in 2016, I guess, with some changes there in the middle toward the end. But yeah, so that's it. And kids, to go back to the last part of your question. Um we put off for nine years.
SPEAKER_00:Did you have a lot of conversations about the financial impact of having children?
SPEAKER_01:Some. Uh yeah, there was some of that. Um I think that wasn't the entire part of this discussion, but that was there, certainly there was some of that. And I and I and I don't uh and I and I guess that when I moved here in 1980 because Mike was born in 81. Uh we felt like at that point uh financially, and I suppose in terms of the potential to be here for a long time, the longevity of it, it felt more secure here. New York always felt kind of temporary, Wichita felt kind of temporary here, despite Becky's aversion to Florida. I think it felt a little more uh permanent, and the company felt more established permanent. And so um that made the decision easier and and the and the money by that time. I mean, we again the these companies none of them paid like some of our competitors paid, but we it was it was better here, and um and the cost of living was probably at that time here lower than it was, at least in New York, if not Wichita. So yeah, it made the decision easier.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So when it came to like family planning and future planning and things like that, you know, I think a lot of people, even if they have a lot of money, might struggle in that area. I've seen a lot of people and I've even worked with a lot of clients who've had a lot and then have had very little. And so what kind of conversations did you have at the beginning of your marriage or relationship as as far as how things were going to be run financially or what goals you had, right? Did it was our goal to make as much money as possible? Like what what are we trying to do?
SPEAKER_01:That's really and I I almost hate to admit this. I don't have I don't I don't hate to admit it. I I am not I don't think of myself as a planner or particularly goal-oriented. I I I don't. And so the answer is until frankly, until the kids came along, um we didn't have any financial plans.
SPEAKER_00:Um so so when you would get paid, you would pay bills and then put if there was leftover money, what would you do with it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it went into savings, but there was not a lot of leftover money at the time. And I and I and I think until we moved here and and had you guys, I mean, there were we had some some savings, but but it was not like we were flush. So in Wichita we had a house that we were there for uh three years. I think we had a house for two years, two and a half, uh two years, year and a half, two years. Um but we but it was relatively, I mean it was a nice house, but relatively modest by today's standards. Uh and well, uh we didn't have a financial plan. The the the at least for me, the prevailing ethic was don't overspend. So and so if you if if in the case of a house, if you couldn't easily afford the mortgage, then don't do it. And and I don't I can't define easily, but but at the time it's like you know pornography, you know, when you see it. And and that's and that's kind of how it was. You you look at some houses, you go through the proformas to see what the mortgage uh monthly looks like, and and I know now that it's never good to buy things based on the mortgage on the monthly payment, because that's kind of a road to hell is paid with those kind of things. Um, but that's what we did. You look at it, you say, okay, it's you know$1,100 a month, and we've got this much coming in, and so can we afford that comfortably? Yeah. So while we didn't spend ourselves into debt at that time, um, we also didn't uh put away probably as much as we could if we were really saving hard. And the lesson we learned was in when we were in Champaign, we looked at buying a house there before we left to Wichita. Thank God we didn't. We looked at buying a house there, and actually it was in Wichita. Take it back. We were there for a year. We'd we'd uh been renting a house, we're looking at buying a house, and we went to a friend of mine who was uh in the bank, was in the banker, and he looked at an application. He said, Let me tell you what I think you should do. You should take six months and pay off all your credit card debt, because we had some. And when when that's all taken, when that's all paid off, then come back and we'll talk. And it was the best advice I've ever gotten. Because until that time, we were not paying off credit cards monthly. We were you know making minimum payments or whatever. And he said, Stop doing that. Take six months, take all your extra cash that you got out there. And he said, even if you get six amount of savings, pay off the credit cards because they'll kill you. So we did. So that wasn't our plan, but we adopted it as our plan. And from that point forward, we had the house, we paid off the monthly credit card bills every month. So there was some planning going on because you know kind of big hours you spent. But in terms of an overall goal, that I want to make a million dollars by the time I'm 50 or 25 or whatever it is, we didn't have any of that um until you guys came along. And then and then we did because we wanted to be sure that we were putting away money for education and so forth. And so uh Michael was 80, 1981, you were 83. Um, it was probably when I got the president's job here. We started saving already some under both your names, but then we got serious about it and started with a financial planner and started a college fund for both of you, and that's when we got serious about it. So at that point, our our planning did change because we had a plan. Until then, we didn't have a formal plan. And at that point, we had a formal plan, and so every month, and there was some friction between the two partners in that relationship about that, because the plan was every month you write the mortgage check. We did have car payment, I think, on one car at that point. Write that one, and then you write the big check to the savings to the two uh the two uh college funds. And there was always a little friction about that. Um, but we did it and it it worked.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay. So I think that started planning at a at a place in your lives where you needed to and also could afford to, right? It was when there was actual money to be putting somewhere. Um okay, so let's kind of circle back to defining wealth. And now we kind of have established theoretically that no one ever raises their hand and says I'm rich.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_00:So if no one ever raises their hand and says they're rich, then how do we actually define wealth? And is that what we're you know striving for? So, in a lot of ways, you know, you you define your outlook on money as being debt averse.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And as a byproduct of being debt averse, you might fall into what's considered by definition a wealthy category. And I almost feel like you would be offended.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not sure how that, I'm not sure how the one follows the other.
SPEAKER_00:Well, because you planned and because you had a successful career, and because you're debt averse and because you don't overspend.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Technically by definition. So the the the boring adult of financial definition of wealth is that your net worth is high enough to sustain your lifestyle, survive most unexpected expenses, and fund your future without constantly grinding and having to work until you die, basically. Well, some experts define wealth at a number, being your entire net worth between two and five million dollars, or 25 times your annual spending. Then there's like the lifestyle definition, right? So that's like the boring adult version. The lifestyle definition is being able to have time freedom, so freedom to do whatever you want, schedule freedom, job or career choices, travel flexibility, not panicking when something in the house breaks, the ability to help others if needed, safety net money, and a life that feels abundant and not tight. And then the emotional definition for your nervous system is feeling safe, supported, and not panicked about money. You can breathe, decisions aren't driven by fear. Um, and that's the emotional definition.
SPEAKER_01:I think those are and I think those are all they're all interesting. Um I uh I don't care what the definitions are. I just I'm not raising my hand.
SPEAKER_00:Um and that's what I want to talk about, right? So it's been really interesting to so a really interesting to way to watch what like someone from your generation might believe subconsciously is to watch how their children interact with different experiences and topics. And so for me, I just always knew I knew after I quit my last job in 2011 that I never wanted to work for someone again, even if I had to live in a cardboard box. Like I just knew that wasn't never going to be a path for me. But I always felt bad charging people. And that's part of why I ended up forming the nonprofit. It was like we should be able to give stuff away to people and people should have things for free and they need help, and help shouldn't have a price tag on it. And it took me a long time to really understand. It took me um a mentor sitting me down and saying, like, you grossly undercharge. And we can work through whatever blocks are there for you, but and um it almost undercuts um your the entire like institution that you're a part of.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You you're devaluing our work grossly undercharging. And I was like, Yeah. Okay. And so I've also struggled with not wanting to be one of them. And it and so there's a it there's a resistance and a stuckness that comes in. Well, if I grew up around people and my takeaway was like, wow, like a disdain because really wealthy people can get away with whatever. Um they aren't held to the same standard everyone else is. I don't want to be like them. So I'm gonna keep myself let's go back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. This is interesting. There's an interesting kind of a parallel with me, I think. Um you mentioned earlier about the pretender syndrome.
SPEAKER_00:Imposter.
SPEAKER_01:Imposter, either way. And uh and I understand that very, very well. Uh because I because that's how I f that's how I that's how I see myself. Um always have. And and so I probably undervalued my worth as well when it came to compensation. Um I was always very careful. I never asked for a raise. Uh once when that when that guy came in for the five months before he got fired, I asked him for more than I was than he was offering, and he and he gave it to me. That was the only time I ever asked. When I was president, I kind of let the board decide what they thought was fair. And I did that for a whole number of reasons, not the least of which was I felt like if I demanded too much, somebody would start really looking at me and realize that I shouldn't be there. And um even though based on results, I should have been there. But but that's never how I never how I saw it. And um and so like you, I I probably undervalued my services. And looking back at it, I probably could have gotten more from them. But but but part of that was the ethos, the culture of the company, which was sort of there to support organization for the real estate lawyers, and it was sort of a for those of us who've been there a long time, sort of a cause. And so you didn't, you know, demand a lot of this organization sometimes, when you probably should have, because we're making a lot of money for the lawyers out there. Um but I did, and that and that was probably the biggest reason. I was afraid if I pushed too hard, they'd start scratching the surface and realize that there's no there there.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And so that that's the same thing with like whether it's wealth or money or deservability of position. It's like, well, then who does deserve it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's always good.
SPEAKER_00:What's the what's the barrier to entry as far as providing values, skill sets, experience, education, knowledge, personal attributes? Like then who is enough?
SPEAKER_01:And I and I don't know that I can answer that. They are. Is that guy down the street making a million dollars a year?
SPEAKER_00:No. And so I think that's that's like the interesting part of the conversation is in my own journey as an entrepreneur, running into some of these blocks and being like, I know they come from somewhere. Okay, it's only been until the last year or so that I have been like, oh, I'm worth every penny. And I because I've been in rooms with other people who do what I do, and I'm watching their work and thinking, what? What are they doing? People that are outside of their scope, that are working in arenas they shouldn't be in, like to the point of it's kind of an ethical breach to just not being very good. And I'm thinking, wait a second, I've dedicated the last 17 years of my life to focusing on being the best therapist and coach that I can be. I think that I've made it there, but it took me that long to have my own proof of concept.
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, and that's interesting because I think um my epiphany in that regard um came relatively well not late, late. Well, I started in 85 as president, and this would have been the early 2000s, so 20 years in when I got involved with the the trade association and started really seeing other CEOs from competitive companies uh in in the association meetings and realizing um as you did, that uh in fact I I was as good as they were, just not in a in that big a company and hadn't been focused in that direction. Um but I did, and that didn't change my approach to compensation with the company, but I did, I but I I had the same aha moment. Um and I could almost in the same words that you just use is a couple of meetings if you think, what in the hell are they saying? And and and realizing that wait a minute, you know, these guys aren't aren't all that bright.
SPEAKER_00:Um but yeah, I think there's like, you know, definitely subconscious programming there that like we have, and however that's played out with a lack of um worth or deservability that plays into it, taking 20 years to think, wait, I think I've arrived. Like I've I've kind of made it where I really feel confident in knowing what I'm doing. But I also think that that lack of arrogance, at least for me, and I've heard you tell a certain story about this that reflects the same thing, which is like, I don't want to hurt anyone. Like if I don't want to be wildly swinging an axe around unless I've practiced for 20 years on how to handle this axe. And a lot of people that rise really quickly to the top, um, are often, I mean, not often, I don't want to overgeneralize, but I've seen a lot of people rise really quickly that are wildly swinging the axe that don't know how to control it. And so they might get up there really quickly, make make a bunch of money, but it doesn't mean that they're a good leader. It doesn't mean that they're effective, and it doesn't mean that they're not hurting people.
SPEAKER_01:And that's and that's um and I was when I got the president's job in 85, I was lucky that we'd had this guy for five months because he was the axe swinger. And um there was nothing that he tried to do in those five months that we didn't eventually do. Um of which changed the uh flavor of the company in some pretty substantial ways. But we but we did it in a way that took into consideration um more than just his in this case, three-year CEO trajectory where this was his first stepping stone job and he was gonna move on from there. He had to get things done quickly because that's what his his plan was. That that's where what we surmised was. My case, I was I was there for the long haul. And and when you come into an organization, or you come into a relationship in your case with the with a client, um, if everybody in the organization in my case has a clear and shared picture of what the issues are, um and are and are all have all bought into the fact that these are important things to get done, then you can do things really quickly and in a very broad axe wing kind of a way because everybody's on board. When you're the only one or one of the very few who see things a certain way, uh then you need to be careful because if you aren't, then in five months you'll be out of there and ineffective. And so, as I say, he the lesson learned, which would have been my nature anyway, I think, was um if you're gonna make these kinds of changes, be sure you've prepared the ground so that all of those people who have to make this work and who will be using your services afterwards understand that it's important that these things happen. And that may take a little more time, a little more effort, but eventually you get there in a better way. And so that that was the lesson. He was the axe winger and and effectively prepared the ground for me to come in. I look like a no matter what I would have done at that point, I'd have been a hero. Um, but we but we they say none of the stuff that he wanted to do was things we didn't eventually accomplish. It just took us a little longer.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And I think there's like interesting parallels between that and and my job and what you're describing as like maybe a visionary axe swinger who tries to do too much too fast and people can't catch up or they're not on board for that because it's it's too chaotic, it's too disrupted. And I always say with my clients, like, I like to work with people who are already seasoned, who've already been to therapy, who already understand regulation so that we can really just move forward, get them moving. Because if they're not regulated, if their nervous systems aren't calm enough, if they're not understanding how their brain and body works, then we have to spend a lot of time prepping that foundation, which isn't, which I used to do and used to teach, and I still do, but my preference is people who already get that and are really ready to roll.
SPEAKER_01:But it but it's a but it but the but the critical critical piece there is that you understand that and that and that the client understands that. Because again, in my case, it was all of our various stakeholders, employees and customers and owners and all the rest of the they all have to be on board with whatever you're gonna do. Well, the same thing's true here. If if you're a potential client and you haven't gotten to that kind of baseline agreement about what the situation is, then it then it makes it, if not impossible, certainly much, much tougher.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And that's when you end up hurting people, right? Like I had a client two weeks ago um who you know, we tried to start doing some subconscious work and she couldn't sit still for it. She kept like opening her eyes when they're supposed to be closed and fidgeting, and and I finally stopped her and just said, okay, I think we need to scale this way back, and in three months we'll be ready to do this. But you you don't have enough regulation in your system to sit still with your eyes closed for three minutes, which means like we have a lot of groundwork to do. And she was really grateful for that. And so now I'm teaching her the groundwork that I don't always teach, but turning this back into money because I charge a rate that is not as high as my mentor would like it to be, but I think more accurately reflects what I do. I never want to take or almost it almost feels like stealing. I don't want to steal too much of people's time and money. So I try to get them through the process of working with me as quickly as possible in a safe way, but I I I always, when they're asking how many sessions do I need, I'm trying to think about how quickly I can get them there in the safest way possible that won't hurt their bank account.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I don't think that's that's like it's none of my business, really, like what they want to invest or what they can't invest. But I I get a pretty good feeling, or people just straight up tell me kind of what their budget is.
SPEAKER_01:I I think you know, we've we've talked about other not so good influences that I may have had on you. I think that maybe part of part of the ethic you inherited from from uh living in our house. I mean, uh I I I would like to think that we demonstrated that same kind of ethic, and that's where you picked up part of that. I mean, I it it's not I don't think that we taught you guys every man for themselves. I I think I I think I tried, at least I tried, to make it clear that we were kind of all in this together. And that may mean that you can't charge the the gold rate because you emotionally, mentally, you aren't prepared to do that because you realize that while certainly that person's your client, we're also in this game together.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, no, I I would say that you guys pass that down almost to a fault because when when you're when you're coming from that place and other people aren't, it makes, and I I think I've experienced this in business partnerships too. It can make business partnerships difficult, but but I would rather come from that place and refine it to make it like, you know, universally good, but also working for me, than to come from the place of greed. Um, otherwise you're not really, I'm not able to join my clients where they are. But there's there's so many different kinds of like oxymormons in the therapy world, which is we're not taught how to run a business, we're not taught anything about business or money. And we can't really market ourselves because if we're persuading people to pay for our service, then we're already in a like coercive, manipulative state with them. And so effectively marketing yourself as a therapist, one like me who doesn't take insurance, so people aren't going to find me through an insurance company, it's really hard.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and and your profession is not alone in that. Uh I don't know. I mean, I haven't been in law school a long time, but I know, but I know that until that forever, there there's no there's no business class with law school or medical school for that matter. Um most professions don't most professions don't teach those things. And so um that that's not surprising.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that that part's mind-blowing to me, you know, like a nice little attachment, like mini NBA, which is what when I went through the rally business program, I got a lot of that and I loved it. I couldn't get enough of that because it's I always felt like if someone gave me a roadmap and said it might take you 10, 15, 20 years to get here. But if you do exactly what I say, even if it means working really, really hard, you will get there, I would have absolutely executed it day one. It's the confusion of like, is this the right thing? Am I do I do this? Should I try that? That really is difficult because I I don't want to be like lone wolf, woman not for herself. I want to come from a community aspect. I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't want to be coercive, I don't want to be greedy. And and so that makes it difficult.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, it does. I understand that. I understand that. And that's I suspect a little bit the same reason that I didn't push on compensation. I I wanted to be fair um and didn't want, I also didn't want the people looking over my shoulder, which they might might have been if I'd been pushier with those things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I felt that too, with asking for more pitching large programs and stuff. The idea of like if you put yourself too much on in the limelight, you're gonna be picked apart. You know, and then there's a flip side too of you know, when COVID hit, of not taking a loan when I should have instead of burning through, I burned through all the money that I had because my business came to a halt. And because my thought was, I want to save those loans for people that that really need them, that wouldn't be able to eat if they didn't have it. And I remember telling you and Michael that a couple of years later and you guys being like, why didn't you take that loan? Like people who didn't need them were taking them. And he had like this running list of all these people and businesses who have a lot of money taking these loans that they never ended up paying back, who didn't like need them. And I I was like, no, I I'm not gonna take money if it means someone else who can't afford food.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that that goes, I mean, that goes back to the what we just talked about a minute ago, which is this whole notion that we're all in this together. And it's not just me against the whole world, it's not a zero-sum game. Um if it the it's the perspective that if that if we all do well, we all do well. And and if we all do well, some of us will do better. But by and large, the if we all do well, the pie gets bigger. It's not it's not zero sum. It's not if you win, I lose. That's not that's not the ethic ethical perspective that we came from.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think that's what we're what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00:Which is it's ties back in nicely to a private school because I know like some of those people or their parents were taking these loans during COVID that they didn't need and that they'd never paid back.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it it it goes back to that. Like, do I have more of a comfort being around people who like are wealthy, whether that means they're overspending, who knows what it look like they're wealthy? Yes. But I also have kind of a mistrust there too, because of stuff like that, which is like they're like sharks circling, you know, like you don't need that. You can like forego taking that loan and still you don't even have a mortgage, right? And there are other people out there who like are struggling business owners who might lose their business because of this, and you're taking that money from them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I, you know, and I think I think maybe that's part of that whole thing we talked about earlier about my lack of comfort with wealthy people, is that I rightly or wrongly, I I think many of them come from that zero-sum perspective that that I'm gonna get mine and stick a different thing.
SPEAKER_00:I think that if if we reflect on everything that we talked about today and the way that some of those words are defined, I think we take wealthy people out of it and we we call them something else. That's probably that's that's probably kind of people can be found everywhere, regardless of whether or not their bank account's big or they have a house. It's the kind of person who willfully has blinders on to what's going on around them and and will continue to take even when they don't need it and either don't care or don't have the ability to have the awareness of how their actions affect other people.
SPEAKER_01:So maybe so maybe it's not rich people, it's selfish people.
SPEAKER_00:Selfish, like emotionally immature, um sociopathic. I don't know. There's all kinds of um emotionally stunted, arrested development, like narcissistic.
SPEAKER_01:There's there's a yeah, but those are those all those all carry negative connotations.
unknown:Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:But like so does selfish.
SPEAKER_01:But all the well, it does, it does. I said they they all have negative connotations. And and truthfully, the way we've been using the word the term rich also has negative connotations because that's why people don't raise their hand.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And so it's it's I I think that we were substituting lack of moral character for in development for wealth and rich.
SPEAKER_01:That's probably that's probably fair. Uh and um that's probably fair. And it's not fair probably to um cloak everybody who has substantial resources with some of those uh negative.
SPEAKER_00:Not at all. Take both out of it. You really just have to watch the way someone behaves in a situation where they have the opportunity to help someone else, choose not to.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:In favor of taking more when they don't need it.
SPEAKER_01:That's fair. Yeah, that's and that's probably that's very that's pretty that's accurate. Yeah. I think that's accurate.
SPEAKER_00:And when you see someone in a large house at this point or living lavishly or whatever, there's an assumption that that has played a role in it. And I think that's not just for you or me. Like I think everybody kind of views things that way. Um I think that's true. And so when it came up for me with like I almost saw it as an accusation, being accused of having a trust fund, um, I felt offended because I don't have a trust fund. And a lot of things that people define as a definer of wealth, like I also didn't have. You know, I always think about how I was put in the arena of private school. And while you and mom could have, I think, easily afforded to buy us a car, you never did.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I'm not sure it would have been easily afforded, but we probably could have, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so I always felt like I was um they were I was in an arena of people swinging around axes wildly, and I had a pocket knife. And it just, why am I here?
SPEAKER_01:We didn't want to. We didn't we we had different priorities. We we were, I mean, yeah, we probably could have afforded it, but but but we didn't and spent it instead on what we thought were important things. Education, some travel, those kinds of things that we thought were more important than the the car or whatever. And you know, I I go back to a conversation that oh you you may not remember, but I think it freshman or sophomore year homecoming, as I recall, wasn't it wasn't uh problem as homecoming. And some of the parents were gonna rent a limo to take these kids to an after party, and he wanted us to, as I recall, kind of pitch in on the thing, and we said, absolutely not, and you're not gonna go. And and he was furious with us, I mean, really, really angry. Well, why? Everybody else was doing it, why? And we said, whole lot of reasons. One, because it's expensive, two, because it's expensive and we don't choose to spend money that way. And three, you're 14 years old. You're gonna write in a limousine. Where do you go from there? Your mother's sitting here, she's never been a limousine in real life, and so we're gonna put you in a limousine.
SPEAKER_00:But then it's it's been why am I putting my kids in an environment where I want them to be more comfortable with what I define as wealthy people while making them different?
SPEAKER_01:That's a good thing. Yeah, except you're right. Except that except for this, and that is even if even if they're uncomfortable and they're wearing the orange when everyone else is wearing green, they've at least got the exposure to it at a relatively early stage. So that they there's a chance to understand that and and and deal with it relatively early in life. I didn't have that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You make you make a good point. Make a good point.
SPEAKER_00:Um but but because I'll all I wanted was at that point just send me to public school. I want to be with people who live similar lives.
SPEAKER_01:Good point, except that except for this, and that is that we we knew from an educational quality perspective that that wasn't the way to do it, and that and that the that the I don't think we thought about making you guys different at that school, and that's you make you raise a good point. Um that may not have been fair to you all, but the the balance between the quality education and that lack of comfort was definitely on the side of I I think I would have had more regard for that perspective if you really didn't have enough money.
SPEAKER_00:Because what I saw, you know, you paid off the house in '98. I was a freshman in high school. So to say, like, I don't know if we could have afforded a car is not true. You could have. You guys made choices intentionally, and sometimes it felt like punishment being on the receiving end of that.
SPEAKER_01:Like I can I can understand that. I don't think that's entirely fair. I mean, it was not ever intended as punishment, but you you make a good point. Um but but everything is a balancing act, and again, we we thought that the educational quality was way more important. And having said that, I don't think we didn't recognize the issue that you're bringing up, the orange versus the green. I I don't think we really saw it that way.
SPEAKER_00:At the time, like while trying to fight different battles about it with you guys, I don't think that I articulated it quite that way, but that's how it felt because um you know you wanted us to go there because you didn't feel comfortable around them, right? It was us and them, and I'm gonna help them get comfortable around them, but I'm going to put up enough roadblocks so that they're they don't actually believe they're like them.
SPEAKER_01:I well, I think and I think that's fair. I mean, I I'm not sure we articulated it or could have articulated it that way, but I think that's that's as unfair as that may be. I think that's exactly right. Uh again, I said uh, you know, I thought it was I I don't want to overemphasize the importance of my perspective in terms of exposing you to that, because I think the biggest issue for us was educational quality. For me, the the whole wealth thing was kind of an add-on. That was that was maybe the frosting on the cake. It was always the quality of the education. There's no question about that. This was kind of an add-on. Now, having said that, I don't I don't know that uh we that we could have articulated at the time understanding that we wanted you exposed, and yet by not letting you really be them, if you will, we're creating a a problem.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think it really and it wasn't even like I don't think that was intentional at all, or even like in your conscious awareness, but it's just so interesting and speaks to how entrenched our subconscious programs are, because in an effort to provide that education and give this exposure while also creating those blocks, but my takeaway was okay, I've had exposure to these people and I'm not like them. And now when when when people say, I always thought you had a trust fund, I hear it as a offensively.
SPEAKER_01:An accusation. But but if that but if if that was if that's what happened, then then that's the outcome I would have wanted. Again, I couldn't have articulated it at the beginning at that time. I couldn't have said, I want them to be exposed to these people and understand that ethic without falling into it. If if I could have articulated that, that's exactly the outcome I would have wanted.
SPEAKER_00:But but as we've determined today, like we can't judge wealth on the car or the it's really about the the moral line there and how they treat people. So that makes the like upping the ante to like a much bigger thing, which is like I wanted them to have exposure to people, to kids and parents who perhaps don't have a great moral compass and who don't operate as it's not us versus them, like we are them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I understand I understand. Um but but but we but we have to label something sometimes. I know I'm giving you hard time, but because I just it's and and and so and so and so in the in the in the common parlance, saying somebody isn't how you say the word too, but in the common parlance, saying somebody is rich puts a whole bunch of those descriptors on them that you just went through, you know, and and fair fairly or unfairly, and that's why people won't raise their hand, because that that label subsumes a whole bunch of different things.
SPEAKER_00:But and I wonder how many other people or parents that sent their kids there felt the same way. Like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I don't I don't know either. I don't know. Um I I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Uh and and obviously there were people there who had their kids there um who probably where it was a real sacrifice for them to go. I mean, it was a sacrifice for us, if only because if you go into public school, would it cost anything? Um but but we could we could live with that, pay the tuition, and still put aside money for college. But but there were people there we we know who were making a real sacrifice for the kids to be there. Now, what their motivations were, I don't know. Certainly the educational quality.
SPEAKER_00:They also still had cars, though. I'm gonna die on that hill. It was such a definer for me in high school because I think I was the only person that didn't have a car.
SPEAKER_01:Your brother didn't, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, we were not 16 at the same time, and that's why it was like almost like a statement, like a hill to die on. I'm like, even the kids that are here in scholarship have a car. Like my parents are doing this on purpose. Like there's some sort of like, I'm gonna put my totem pole down and bang it around, kind of thing. Like, and that's true. There was a safety aspect to that too, because you also had the rule where we couldn't we also couldn't ride in a car with a driver had a license for at least a year.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and so there was a big safety piece of it. I think, and they do tie into everything that we're we're talking about. And so to tie this all back in, when um people make comments about assuming that there's a bank role, which is which is how I've been able to have a career and be an entrepreneur, I think if we take I I started thinking about women who maybe got married in their mid-20s and then 10 years later had a successful business, and people may be thinking or assuming if her husband has a good job, he must be bankrolling her. Right. And it's I think it's kind of the same thing. So aside from like money, wealth, generational wealth trust fund, it's the the assumption that I think is unconscious for a lot of people that for a woman to be successful in her own right, someone must have been funding her.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's just not the case. And I want to be less offended by that. But you know, I'm like, I just got married this year, so they can't say it's my husband like carrying me along. It was like, no, I I had to figure it out. And I will say, you know, um I have bought and sold more cars than any other woman I know. Um, so circling back to the car thing, I had to figure it out how to do that. And so um in college, I worked and I saved money. And after um my freshman year, I found a used car, bought it, paid it off that summer because we don't do debt, and then held on to it for a couple of years, hunted down a car that was worth more, saved up for that, traded that in. And I just kept doing that until I got into nicer and nicer cars. Um, but I have a lot of female friends who rely on their dads still, even though they're married or their husbands, to figure out how to get their next car.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know cars.
SPEAKER_00:I don't, you're welcome. So I will say there the element of just because you can provide something doesn't mean you quote, should is helpful because when we have to figure something out, we do.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's I mean, that's I mean that's right. And and and I think that that's I think that that applies to the the bigger story about the exposure to wealth and the rest of it the same thing. Uh you know, there there is a conflict there. There there was, which is which again I didn't understand the time, which was which was we want you exposed to that, but don't want you to be that. And and and that's but that but that is the ultimate uh answer is that you'll figure it out. And and and so I mean that's parents you know want to protect the kids and make it as easy as possible for them as we can. But part of making it easy is giving them the tools so that when we aren't around to solve those problems, they've got the tools to do it. And and if and if and if you can do that, then I think you've done your children a great service, even though it may be uncomfortable and difficult at the time. Um I part of me wishes that there had been a big trust fund back there. Because all of us say all of us, certainly well again, it goes back to the thing about parents. I it'd be it'd be uh internally comforting to to think that there's enough there that you guys wouldn't have to ever worry about make another dollar and live very comfortably the rest of your lives. There is a there's a piece of me that would love to be able to do that. The other piece of me goes back to what you just said, which is um the ability for the kids to figure it out.
SPEAKER_00:And and through that, you know, I'm glad that there wasn't a trust fund. Like I know that if I had$10 million,$100 million at my disposal, I would still do the job that I'm doing because I love doing it. But I wouldn't have landed there if I hadn't, you know, like I think there's something about not having to figure it out that lends to complacency.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It can.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that there would have been a lot of struggle there if there was no requirement about, you know, even when I was like crashing off and on at your house a couple years ago in between like traveling and selling houses and buying houses. And I remember you saying it was in like January, and you were like, I love having you here. You've got eight weeks to figure this out. I was like, Oh. And you were like, I love, I do love having you here. And like, you know, we had an agreement that you would stay here when you needed to, and like at this point, it doesn't look like you're heading off anywhere else, and I wasn't. And it was like, and I and I that made me figure it out. I would have because I just didn't know at that point what I wanted. Do I buy a house? I don't want to want to rent something, and like it put a fire, like I I benefit from having a fire under me sometimes, and I think a lot of people do, and most of us do. Yeah, it's not always desirable, but I and I heard what you were saying, but I also in my head, it's like, okay, if I, you know, lost my job or lost the ability to make money in my house tomorrow, I also know that I have a family like whose whose couch I could sleep on. And I think that's you know, I my hope is that for most people they have at least a friend or somewhere that like they could rest if they needed to while they figured it out. But I think not doing anything or not figuring out was never an option. No, it just wasn't.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I think that's and and that's and that's the responsibility of a parent or a friend, I think. Either way. You and and and that's why the the whole trust fund thing is kind of interesting. Because because whether it's a trust fund or whether it's being able to stay at somebody's house indefinitely or whatever the support help happens to be, that doesn't really solve the ultimate problem, does it?
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And um so I'm sorry I couldn't give you the trust fund, but well, I think that we both determined it wouldn't I don't even know what I would do with it.
SPEAKER_00:I'd pay my house off, I will tell you that. That's something. Um oddly enough, you know, buying and selling houses has been something that's been really helpful to my career because it's allowed me like space and money to invest in my own businesses. And so while like the idea is to get the house and the paid off as quickly as possible, I haven't done that, but for whatever reason, I've managed to like make a pretty sizable amount of money selling houses at the right time and being able to reinvest it. Um and so that doing it that way intuitively has been helpful for me because you know, starting your own business from scratch and not having a partner or someone to pay half of your bills or having a trust fund and not having business invest investors is is tough, you know. And the real estate thing has been like a godsend there. But and if anybody wants to buy my house on 413 West Princeton, reach out. But even that, you know, like when when I get a little too stressed about it, something always pops up. So someone just rented it for the next three weeks and is taking care of the mortgage this month. And so things always work out the way that they need to. But um, real estate ended up being oddly pretty good. Pretty good for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:All right, how'd you feel?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, how do you feel about your first podcast?
SPEAKER_01:Tired. Do you a lot of thinking? Well, I didn't didn't have a good night last time. Yeah, it was it was it was great. It was it went it's an hour and a half went by very quickly.
SPEAKER_00:Well, we'll uh get this one published and you can hear it, and then um well, if you liked it, we can bring you back for another one. Maybe we'll talk about something else.
SPEAKER_01:Something else is equally uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00:You're welcome.
SPEAKER_01:Nothing like stretching, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we'll talk about something uh boring next time.
SPEAKER_01:This was this was great. Thanks. This was fun. So Yep. Let me switch.
