Mid-Life Mayhem; A guide to functioning in your 40's & beyond
This podcast features us having candid conversations about how to navigate all things mid life, including:
- Relationships
- Mental Health - anxiety, stress, depression, grief, fears, trauma (including generational trauma), estrangement, aging, parental aging and more
- Nervous system care & daily practices
- Sex
- Perimenopause & Cycle syncing
Mid-Life Mayhem; A guide to functioning in your 40's & beyond
Under fueled: The Hidden Mental Health Cost of Diet Culture
Midlife Men Mayhem is officially here and it is giving real talk, real bodies, real nervous systems.
In this episode, I’m joined by Derek and Jensen for the first time together, and we dive into what happens when diet culture meets midlife, masculinity, and metabolic reality. Derek shares an honest update from the trenches: coming out of full blown starvation mode, increasing calories, watching his weight fluctuate and then normalize, and realizing his brain fog, sleep, motivation, and strength were all screaming for nourishment.
Jensen breaks down why the scale is the worst emotional support system, how to set performance based goals that don’t trigger a spiral, and why “get healthy first” has to come before fat loss. We also go deeper into the part nobody really talks about: men starving themselves, men ignoring red flags, and why so many guys were taught that having a problem means you are the problem.
We get into nervous system basics, why under fueling fuels anxiety and harsh self talk, and how hunger is about more than food: it’s mood, motivation, and your zest for life coming back online.
If you’re a woman listening for your partner, we also talk about how to have the hard conversation without it turning into shame, shutdown, or future weaponization. Because yes, that fear is real, and we’re naming it.
This episode is part health journey, part therapy session, part “please make the phone call before you hit rock bottom.”
Stay tuned: this is the beginning of a series and we’re tracking Derek’s progress in real time.
You can follow this journey and connect with them here:
Jensen: Instagram: @coachjensenh
Derek: Instagram: @derekamcclure
You can reach us here:
Katie Kovaleski:
Website:
KatieKovaleski.com
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/coach_katiek/
Work with me: Book your 20 minute connection call here:
Wavier & Release of Liability and Disclaimer: The information provided by the therapist(s) is not intended, nor is implied to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice. The listener is advised to always seek the advice of their health care practitioner or other qualified health care provider with questions regarding medical conditions, or the mental health and welfare of the listener. I (listener) accept that Kathryn Kovaleski is not liable for any injury, or damages, to person or property, resulting from listening to this podcast.
I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_02:How are you?
SPEAKER_00:Excited. How are you? All right. So Derek, I'm assuming you probably didn't get a chance to listen to the podcast we like released today, did you? And that was the interview I did with Jensen. So this will be, and then Derek's obviously hasn't been released yet, but um this will be fun because this will come out. Yours will come out next solo, and then this one will come out. And so people will already have met both of you and have understood where each of you are coming from and how you're working together. So let's talk about midlife men mayhem.
SPEAKER_02:Let's do it.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Let's do it first. I think like just jumping into kind of an organic chat about like an update on um Derek, how you're how you're doing. And so like imagine that Derek's doing great right now.
SPEAKER_02:You could soundbite that shit because for the last few days he's been hitting above a thousand calories. Hot damn, we're making progress. Let's go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, yeah, and it's it's gotten easy, easier. And uh, and then like the weigh in today, back down to 224. So, like you said, like that means nothing. Like, but I'm still there, I'm not gaining weight. Nope. That's the goal. Like I'm about to throw up every time I eat anymore. Like I'm getting used to it. And and I have noticed, I was like, oh shit, man, I hit over a thousand calories today. No problem. So I think it's gonna be good to like be able to move back up.
SPEAKER_00:I love watching people's like previous like bias or like way of thinking just be imploded, you know. It's like one of my favorite things. Two days ago, okay. It's Monday. On Saturday, he and I recorded the podcast, and he was talking about like the struggle and what he'd been through this week with eating and of like the 226 weight creep up two days later. Look who's not wanting to puke and whose weight went back to like the baseline. That's like, oh, I love it.
SPEAKER_02:The body does miracles, you know. It really like it's so beyond anybody's comprehension what the body can do. And um, it it it in it just knows what is needed. Like we can factor in as many things as possible environmentally, what's in our fridge, what's at the grocery store, what people say, what influencers say, whatever we read from a book or a snippet, your body's gonna tell you what it needs, you know. And when you give it what it needs, really miraculous things happen. You know, it's like that Derek, I'm so happy right now. Like, just you're you've you're consuming golly, what like three three to four hundred calories more a day, and it you haven't gained weight, like that's the point. The point is to get you healthy with nutrition, and you're gonna see that your body's like, this is not more than I can handle. Like right, right. This is this is great. Um I'm beside myself right now. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thanks. I I I really appreciate that. Um and yeah, like you said, I just gotta listen to my body, and and you know, if you look in like the past like four or five days, that's I've been consistently over a thousand calories. And of course, that voice in my head is like, like, all right, well, we'll see Monday. I was like, whatever. And I'm like, yeah, whatever, man. And um, and and then I waited today, I'm like, nothing. I'm like, perfect. That's exactly what I wanted. Um, I don't know what I would have done if it would have hit 230 or something like that, but I'll just know right now. I think it was probably after Saturday, just you know, uh just thinking about like the podcast and whatever, and just think about things that were set and whatever. And I was like, you know what? I it doesn't matter. It like, and as soon as I kind of let that go, I kind of feel like my body was like, well, then let it go. And I almost I could almost like feel like the inflammation just kind of going away. And and I kind of knew that today I was like, I'm gonna be under 226. I just knew it like before I got on the scale. I was like, the way I'm feeling is better. And and honestly, you're right, man. Putting these calories on, like I have um, I've been trying, you know, I've been doing pull-ups, whatever, trying to strengthen my arm back. And I have not been, I hit a plateau with gaining muscle in my arm. And I was um, so I could get to like a 45, like like this. And then and even today, just before the podcast, like I'm up to here, I've like gained like 20 degrees. Like I'm you know, I'm like, oh shit, I'm I'm almost there. I'm about to do a pull-up uh with this arm that didn't work a year ago, you know. So uh, and it's because I'm putting those extra calories in. Like I could feel, I was like, I feel like I'm starting to build muscle again already, or at least not mean my muscle basically.
SPEAKER_00:300 calories bought you 20 more degrees, and like now this is recorded, so you can always listen to it, right? Where it's like when the fear pops up, but yeah, like starvation mode. Like, what was your thought process for why you were hitting a plateau with pull-ups when you were only eating 800 calories?
SPEAKER_01:Um I didn't I didn't even correlate it with like I don't have enough calories. Uh I was just like, well, yeah, your arms like messed up. We're it's just gonna be a slow process. I was like, it's supposed to take two years to get back to normal and it's only been a year. And I'm just making all this like it's it's fine, it's whatever. I was like, but it wasn't whatever. Like it and it was just cool to like, even like this morning, right before this podcast, I was like, look at this. Just one more like one more, yeah, you're doing the right track, you're you're on the right track. Like let go of your experiences that mean nothing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think what Jensima said earlier is great too. Like your body knows best, and our bodies are so smart, and like your mind makes decisions for your body. You choose mentally what you're gonna put into it, and its output is just based on the decisions you're making mentally. And so we have this like negative relationship where it's like my body did this or my body failed me, and the body's like, yo, you're dragging me around. Like, I am not you, I don't define you, and you get to decide like how we show up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, 100%. 100%. The nutrients that you're now consuming, it's you're seeing like a fast effect from it, right? Yeah. Now give it give it a month and you'll plateau and you'll be pissed off at me or something like that. However, however, um, that's not a bad thing because that means you know, we've kind of reached a point where we've gotten your body healthy again, you know, and now then we revisit. Okay, we revisit the blueprint, like, okay, you plateaued, so what's next in our journey? Um, just to know that your body's responding so quickly uh is it's so promising. It's so so promising for you. It's great.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so happy. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that's that that's kind of what it feels like. Cause like everything, everything's better. My sleep's better already. Like everything is like we've literally just been sitting here waiting for you to just make this decision. Like, that's my body saying to me. It's like, thank God, we're finally here. And it's just like it's like my body woke up, like I'm thinking more clearly. Um I I could just tell, just uh, you know, I just wrote something, you know, a few minutes ago, and I just wrote it out. And that's not something I do because I'm just so brain fogging. I'm like, well, maybe yeah, I'll write three words in like 20 minutes. And this time I just like popped it out. I was like, oh my God, my brain's online again. It's so great. Um, and that's just pushing me forward because now I can think more clearly, which you know, those voices get more quiet, and I can act upon it. And and um, yeah, it's like I said, it's like, you know, I might feel certain things, but what I do about those feelings is my decision. And I just decide to trust the process and keep going.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And remembering like therapeutically, like the thoughts that we think, the voice in our head, that narrator changes based on the quality of our nervous system. So if our nervous system is really burnt out, we're running on empty, it's like when people talk about anxiety, you get anxiety when you're hungover and you start spiraling, right? It's a perfect example of how our thoughts mimic our nervous system. And that that is that way all the time for everybody. Like, no holds bar. So when your system is only functioning on 800 calories and it's starving, your nervous system is frying because of it. It is frying. It is in survival, like literal survival mode. What is he doing to us? Like, we're starving. No shit, your narrator is gonna be an asshole. Like watching another barometer for your like the therapy part of the health journey is like watch the quality of your thoughts change as you get healthy, as you start eating enough. You're already experiencing that. It's only gonna get better.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:The negative feedback loop from being in starvation mode is like, I'm starving my body, my nervous system's fried. I start thinking really shitty thoughts, the shittier thoughts I think, the less I want to do anything. Feedback loop, like, and then you're just spinning and you're stuck there waiting for you know, Jensen to come along with his like time to save your life, which is what you referenced you know in the podcast, Jensen. You're talking about like before you can lose your weight, like we need to save your life. Because all of these things, the thoughts you think, the emotions you feel, like everything is through that lens.
SPEAKER_02:Some people might have might hear that and think, oh, well, that's dramatic, you know. But at the end of the day, uh life and death, that's that's like few and far between, but quality of life, right? So when when I make comments like that, you know, save your life, like when you're 70, right, you should still want to go out on your bicycle and you know, bike to the farmer's market. You should still be capable of doing that, you know. So when I when when I say things like, you know, we need to work on saving your life, it's really living the fullest life you could possibly live past our midlife and into our older age, you know. So, you know, when I talked to Derek and and I learned about his eating habits and stuff like that, that's immediately where I went. You know, he and I are only a couple years apart from each other. And so I can relate knowing that 10 years from now, I want to be capable of these things. I'm sure he does as well. And we need to feed our system so we can continuously like achieve goals between now and then.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. And and I think I think uh what you're saying is like my my baseline, I need to get my baseline to change because of course I was feeling shitty and run down. I was like, Yeah, but I've always felt like this. So there's nothing wrong, you know. So I'm I'm excited to get up to like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to feel like. So then when I do start dropping down, like, hold up, something's wrong, you know, because right now I'm like, there's nothing wrong because it's how I always felt. And um, and yeah, like with the motivation, you know, I'm out walking and and I'm doing good, and all of a sudden I get lapped by somebody in their 70s. And it, but that's a positive thing. I was like, that's I'm literally gonna chase you. Like, that's my goal. Like, I want to be there in 20 years.
SPEAKER_02:Love it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, love it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think something really interesting in the podcast, like recording this, like consistently is gonna give us this this metric. But you're at a place now, you started what, like two weeks ago?
SPEAKER_01:Something like that.
SPEAKER_00:It feels like two months, but yeah, I think you started two weeks, watch, feels like two years ago. And you've already noticed you you've upped your calories by at least like what 300 per day, went from 800 to around 11 or 1,000. You've noticed an increase in energy, a decrease in brain fog, an increase in like um flexibility and strength, and you're measuring that like through doing pull-ups. So I'm just speaking to that specifically so that you can create this barometer and this baseline, right? Because in six months when we record, I imagine you're gonna be like at 2,000 calories plus whatever that is at that time. You're gonna be able to speak to concentration, cognitive function, brain fog, energy, strength, like the the your lapping, the 70-year-old, whatever it is. And so, like this is such a cool way to document it because we're gonna, this is the beginning, right? But you those are all the metrics that are important, right? And for for longevity, at least these are your starting metrics. So walk us through, Jensen, a little bit about like what or Derek can expect over the next month. Like, what are we looking at for caloric increases? Um, what are our non-weight goals and wins that we're looking for?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so that's the biggest one. And I I preach that to everybody. Um, you know, when and I I think I just put a reel out, like really kind of digging into this a little bit too. So forgive me for repeating myself, but I feel like it's so important. Um, when we make goals based on our body measurements or appearance, um, a lot of times, uh whether you're emotional about eating or just going through a difficult time in life, um when we measure our body, we get triggered. We we could potentially spiral out of control because we're going through tough times and we're not seeing the results we want, whether it's in the scale or the tape measure. And it's difficult for us to get over that. And then, you know, we stay up until 10, 30, 11 o'clock at night, and we're like, well, F it, I'm just gonna have that frozen pizza or what have you, you know. And then we're starting to throw goals out the window because we're disappointed of our progress. So when I talk to my clients or or just when I'm consulting, I try to try to help folks find goals that are not about their appearance or measurements. Um, and in the reel that I just posted, it's like my goal is to run a 100-mile ultra marathon. Uh and every time I go to the fridge or I order something off of a menu, I ask myself, sometimes out loud, is this gonna help me get to 100 miles? And if it is not going to add value to my goal, then I know it's not the right decision. You know, so it's like if I have a choice between the pie and you know, blueberry parfait, well, Greek yogurt and blueberries is gonna help me get to my 100-mile ultramarathon, whereas that chocolate mousse pie won't. So I I would encourage everybody who's going on a health journey to find a goal that doesn't have anything to do with their body, uh, meaning like weight or measurements. You know, your body is going to have to perform to reach this goal, but the goal is not your body, right? The goal is a better 5k time, the goal is, you know, to prepare for a rim-to-rim hike at the Grand Canyon. The goal is to, you know, things like that, right? To improve a physical ability. Because the byproduct of improving your health to reach that physical ability goal, that 100-mile marathon, that hike, is you getting healthier, right? So it's like without looking at the scale, without measuring your tummy, you're aiming for that better 5k time. The byproduct is your body changing. So I it's easier to make conscious decisions about nutrition when you have a goal that's not about your personal measurements. Um, so I try to I try to like preach that to folks. I think it's easier for them to focus on how fast am I running or walking that mile, as opposed to how fast is this weight coming off, for example. Um, and then with Derek, you know, in particular, while I'm looking at his macros throughout the week through the app that we share, I can see what he's eating for breakfast, what he's eating for lunch, and what he's eating for dinner. And for the first week, I told him, do as you do, right? Eat how you normally eat and go about your business. And they noticed, you know, I I know he's, you know, with work, he's quite busy. Uh, so he he wasn't eating lunches. Um, and and as soon as I noticed that, I thought, like, okay, in order for him to get used to consuming more calories, that is a that's a great time span that he is not consuming any nutrition. So let's just try to fit in 100, 150 calories in in that lunch hour. You don't have to go ham, you don't have to go and make yourself a steak type of lunch with potatoes and all that stuff, but let's get something in there. And he started to, which was great because that's what kind of bumped him over the uh thousand calorie mark. And as we progress and and I start seeing his eating habits progress through the macro county and the meals that he's adding in there, I could then make more suggestions. So if he's eating something specific for dinner, but we we need to adjust his carbohydrates maybe because he's feeling lethargic towards the latter half of the day. Well, we might start including sweet potatoes or something like that, as opposed to asparagus, for example. Sweet potatoes are gonna process differently, provide you more fuel for energy. So I get to fine-tune what he's already doing. I'm not changing what he's doing, I'm fine-tuning it and maybe adding some improvements here and there. And then we measure that over the course of a week and see how he feels, how he does. And we just slowly progress till we're at a caloric intake where he's maybe at 2,000 calories and not gaining weight. Like that's the that's the goal for me is to get him to a healthy caloric intake without the weight gain. Because once we get there and he can maintain that, then we could look at maybe a 200-calorie deficit and work on the fat loss. So, you know, it's uh week by week, little by little, fine-tuning things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. Get healthy first.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, uh, no, like um, yeah, two things there. Like when we had our check-in and and you you shifted my focus, like that that whole mindset shift uh just opened up everything for me. I was like, don't look at the weight, just like what am I? And I already had it. Like I I was I was on a walk and I was like, I'm just gonna do two miles today because I'm gonna be busy. And it's like, how busy are you? You can't give yourself an extra 20 minutes. I'm like, come on, like get over it. So I just I did I did the extra mile. It's it's a 20 minutes for a mile. Come on. So um just keeping that in mind because I was like, you're never gonna get to a 15-minute mile if you keep slacking off. You know, like who cares how busy you are? You're not busy for 20 minutes. So that that's been a really that's been really good. Just you know, when you're talking about six months from now, like I'm not even thinking about the weight anymore. Um, like it really like that. You clicked something for me when we talked about that, because now I'm just like, no, like my six month goal is to do, you know, five pull-ups and and and maybe even start jogging, maybe get down to a 12, 12 minute mile or whatever. Um, that's all I'm really thinking about right now. And it's really good. And um and and like with the lunch thing too. So, you know, I'm working and I'm like, well, you know, I I'll stop somewhere and get something to eat or whatever. First of all, to eat healthy, it's very, very limited to stop anywhere to get anything. But also when I'm busy and I'm not hungry, I'm not even thinking about it. And then all of a sudden five o'clock rolls around. I was like, oh shit, I didn't eat lunch. There's no way I can pack on like lunch and dinner's worth of calories because I don't even want to eat dinner. You you know what I'm saying? So, and I kept skipping. And then, you know, you even said, like, you know, make a protein shake or something. And um, and that's exactly what I did. So I just I I make it and have it sitting right there for me to take with me. And just just that, just just hacking that, like making it so easy that like. It would be harder for me not to take it. You know what I'm saying? It's like right there in front of me. So I take it and then like, and I look at it, I'm like, oh yeah, it's one o'clock. I should drink that shake now. And um that's been huge.
SPEAKER_02:Game changer.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So, like, of course, like because I'm the therapist, I'm thinking about like the emotional aspects of it and and things like, you know, going from starvation mode to like eating more mode and stuff like that. And I like coming also from the peptide world with people who I would say were like, let's take someone who we consider moderately healthy who's able to start losing weight because they're not eating in a deficit. They're just not able to. They're overeating. And the GLPs have been great for people with that modulation. But for somebody like Derek, right, who has weight that he wants to lose or his body could lose, who is in starvation mode, those techniques would not be suitable for him because he's already like, quote, not hungry. So my question, like, part of what's interesting to me in watching this is like, do you crave other foods, Derek? Like, do you ever you're like, I want to go eat a pizza? Do I like what is your body? Are you is it so shut down with like starvation mode that you don't have that? Like, how does that factor in at some point, right? If we're we're getting used to consuming more food, and then there's the emotional part of like, I'm consuming now. I want this. Has that come up for you or is it shut down?
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, it hasn't come up yet. And and I'm just kind of riding that wave. I'm just like, okay, well, it makes it easier, but also know something's wrong. Like, I should be hungry, you know. But I'm like, all right, well, it just makes it easier to we'll just get there. Like I said, I was like feeling stuffed all the time. Now I don't like I can add those few hundred calories in and I'm okay. So I can feel it improving. And I'm like, eventually I'm gonna get to a place where I'll be hungry, but for right now, yeah, it's just completely shut down. And that was that that was literally uh, you know, a couple months ago when when when I saw myself and my body was like, Yeah, we don't eat anymore. That's exactly what it did. And get and and it shut it down. Like, I'm like, I don't crave anything, and um, like I'm around like good food a lot, and I'm like, eh, like I'm just eating utility.
SPEAKER_00:The kid who's like so sad, but was like told he couldn't cry, and so he just like lost his ability to cry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna get hungry again one day, and then and that's like the fun part, I think, of of really like creating a better, happy, healthy, emotional relationship with eating again. Like you gotta be hungry to do that, right? And so, like, all of this to me is like you're working your way up at some point to feel hunger again and like have the support so you don't have to be be afraid of that either.
SPEAKER_02:It'll happen naturally. You know, his his body again, his body's gonna tell him what it needs. And the faster he does his, excuse me, the faster Derek does his three miles in the morning, and the more pull-ups he does, and he starts adding push-ups and squats into the mix, his body is gonna start growing muscle, and then the muscle is gonna be like, bro, I need more protein if I'm gonna maintain this. And he's naturally going to start craving proteins, and you're gonna start getting hungry, and you're gonna be like, Wow, this the shake isn't enough for lunch. I either need to put more nutrients in the shake or I need to pack a meal. Um, and it's just it's listening to the to the body, you know, and and it'll tell you. It'll tell you when when you start feeling lethargic again, because it'll happen eventually, you'll tap out, you know, because your fitness is gonna get intense or what have you, and you'll start getting tired again and we'll revisit that, you know. But your body, it gives us all the signs, every sign in the world we can get, and a lot of times we just tend to ignore it until it's too late.
SPEAKER_00:And the hunger part it applies to everything, right? So it's not like for me, and going through my own kind of like weight loss evolutions and experimenting with peptides and stuff, like hunger isn't just about food, it's like zest for life, it's about hunger for relationships and connection and motivation for work and creativity, and like, and so it's gonna be so interesting and fun to watch as you start to get to a place where you're hungry again, what that actually means, right?
SPEAKER_02:Food equals mood, you know. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Say it again.
SPEAKER_02:It's an equals mood. It's true, yeah. Because, you know, when I mean, just the last two weeks, Derek, you started consuming approximately three to four hundred more calories per day. The kid you're already listed, you know, decrease in brain fog, increase in motivation, so on and so forth. So naturally we're gonna have more positive thoughts. We're gonna want to be more of a go-getter. We're gonna, you know, have we're gonna establish higher goals than we ever anticipated, you know. So when you start feeding yourself properly and your body starts processing it properly, your brain starts working better. It's just such a domino effect of goodness. It's it's great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and uh and and I've already experienced that. Like I said, it's just coming out so quickly that it's uh I it's just so motivating. Uh like um, like I I like kind of stopped my meditation practice, whatever, because my brain's just all foggy, whatever. And uh, and uh it's kind of like the the shake for lunch. I'm like, if it's not there, I'm not thinking about it. And uh just in the last week, I have doubled what I've been doing in that and it's so easy. And it's and so while I was thinking, I was like, why have I not been doing this? This is so easy. I'm like, oh, that's right, because I was starving myself, and I'm I'm like, I can't even think about it. But like, even that, and that gives me even more motivation just to keep going. So like, man, if I got here already, where am I gonna be next week? Yeah, that's uh it's been exciting.
SPEAKER_02:That's powerful. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:So much fun. I love it. I'm so excited for this journey and it's so fun to watch. And I think that like there's so many different things we can do and hack and learn and work with the subconscious and the nervous system, and we can do all the self-care, but it's always I always tell people start with the basic five, right? So that's sleep, nourishment, hydration, movement, sunlight. Like if if one of those is really out of balance or you're starving yourself, like what do you think's gonna happen to everything else? Like, you're not gonna have motivation to do anything. Like, what are we doing? So nourishment is so important. And I think in diet culture, you know, Jensen and I talked about, and you'll hear on the podcast we recorded where it's like the second we go into weight loss mode in our brains, like the switch flips where we like start doing some really fucked up shit. Right? You're like, I don't like the way I look in this picture. I think I'll become anorexic. What?
SPEAKER_02:It's unfortunate that your listeners couldn't see the face that we all just made. Like there was a moment of silence there when we were all like, Yep, yep, no shit.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that's literally what happened to me. Like, I saw a picture of myself. I was like, We don't eat no more. That's it, you're done. And um, yeah, I I'm I'm glad that it's our mark so shifted out of that. And uh and even like I said, like paying attention to my water, like I'm just chronically dehydrated. I mean, right here, I carry this around with me every day because it's in my face. And I know I need to finish this by the end of the day. And as long as I keep doing that, I'm like, okay, okay, keep doing that. And then eventually it's gonna be, I don't even have to have it in my face anymore because I just I just do it. And uh that's really exciting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The underfueled car is not gonna run. And so, yeah, once you start to fuel it well, when it starts to drop towards E, you're gonna get those signals, like Jensen said, and you won't forget. But it's I just like again to all of our faces in that moment. I think men experiencing this and talking about it, I think is underrated and under talked about because I think for women it's just accepted. I I like don't know a woman who at some point hasn't starved herself, which is fucking wild.
SPEAKER_02:That is, and I think guys unintentionally uh starve themselves a lot, not even intentionally. You know, you get folks like Derek just you know alluded to seeing himself like a picture and be like, oh well, I guess I shouldn't eat anymore. I think you get a lot of fellas that they they they take on such a like provider role, they get sucked up into their daily life and work that they neglect their nutrition and stop eating, not realizing that they're starving themselves, not realizing that they ran out of the house with the English muffin in their hand, didn't have lunch, and came home cranky because of the long day, had dinner and didn't want to deal with anything. So there's a it's a double-edged sword. Um, and on both sides of that sword, a lot of guys won't even want to have the conversation because then it just opens up a closet of other things that we have to talk about. Um, and and that's what makes it tough for middle-aged men that are that are going through, you know, the nutrition uh issues uh that we that we see so commonly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so it's like what percentage of middle-aged men don't have optimal nutrition or even optimal hormone support, right? We talked about too how it's really hard to be like metabolically healthy and optimized if your hormones are not, right? They are hand in hand. And so I just, you know, midlife crisis is a thing for a reason. And my theory is that what happens to men and women in midlife, like they're going through that second puberty, they're not metabolically optimal or healthy, they're not hormonally balanced or healthy, and and you see that come out through their mental health, right? Where we see the increased divorce rates, we see the increased rates of suicide, of mental health issues, and and it is so tied, in my opinion, to the lack of hormonal and metabolic health and optimization. Like we just hit a point where our bodies cannot continue to be beaten up the way that we've been beating them. Um and so I just percentage-wise, I'm like, I wonder what percentage of the male population in midlife is not metabolically and hormonally optimized. And I'm I'm gonna bet that's well over 50%.
SPEAKER_02:I I agree. I would say it's I would say it's potentially over 70. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and and it's it's also one of those things, uh, Derek, for example, like when we're working with with your nutrition and stuff like that. I could I could recommend you go and talk to a hormone specialist, and I could give you their name and number and say, hey, go check them out. You know, they'll do right by you. But they'll look at your biomarkers, and there's gonna be like so many red flags because of your nutrition. So it's kind of like work on work on what we can control first, work on the nutrition and how can we get you the vitamins that you need um to operate uh at an optimum level. And then a hormone specialist will then be able to look at your your lab work and they'll be able to dial in where nutrition can't. So um, a lot of men, I mean, it wouldn't be bad if anybody just went and got their lab work done and checked on their hormones, you know. You know, I know a gentleman who went in and got his hormones checked because he's had a hard time losing weight for quite some time and he thought he had low testosterone. He actually had high high estrogen. His testosterone was fine. So he'd he had to get put on um estrogen blockers to decrease the amount of estrogen that his body's producing. And immediately, uh, similar to yourself, Derek, like within a couple weeks, his energy levels spiked tremendously. So, you know, in in his case, it wasn't necessarily nutrition, although there might have been some holistically nutrition things that he could have done. Um, regardless of what direction he chose, nutritionist or hormone specialist. I think folks our age, uh, it's vital to do one, the other, or both. Um, and just kind of you know, we we grow up, Derek. I'm sure you can vouch for this. We grow up here and suck it up, move on, like just handle it, you know. That's that's what we do. Uh, so this is one of those things where I would look at that gentleman, I'd be like, dude, go get your hormones checked, suck it up and go go get it checked. If that's how you respond to things, if that's what you is if that's what you're hearing, do it. Go hire a nutritionist, suck it up and just hire someone, be vulnerable for a moment and let's get you right. Um, so yeah, I I would I would argue to say, Katie, it's probably over 70% of males, middle-aged males at least, that are neglecting their nutrition and their hormones are out of whack.
SPEAKER_00:It's like that's the mind blow emoji for me because it and it's so sad because so much can happen in your life and so many different things can suffer because of because of this, right? Our marriages can suffer, our relationship with our kids, our relationship at work, like our feeling of purposeness, and why so many people feel like after 40 it's you downhill. And yeah, you might give less fox because you have no more fox because your hormones are like depleted, right? And so I like the the there's multiple pathways, right? We know that it's important to be metabolically healthy and hormonally healthy, and one will lead you to the other, right? And so my metabolic part was like losing weight, but then feeling like shit. And then that led me to the hormone piece, which basically was like if you can't get your hormones optimized, like you can eat all the right food in the world. Like you're not gonna have energy. You're you don't you don't have iron. Like you can't keep up with the like iron loss. I couldn't keep up with depletion. So it was pushing through workouts, like working out too hard, eating all the right things, and just feeling like my nervous system was broken. I was exhausted, achy, and it was like you got a real hormone issue here that has to be treated. After that, like you're off to the races, but you know, short of surgery, like good fucking luck. And so, like you have to explore both pathways, but don't beat your head against the wall, right? Diet culture, like you said, you're trying to lose weight for nine years, like it's time to suck it up and make the phone call, right? If I'm going through like binging and starvation, you know, the ride over the course of my life, it's time to make the phone call. Like, make the fucking phone call.
SPEAKER_02:And and that's all it is, you know. That's that's all it is. In my case, in my case, right? When when I'm speaking to a gentleman on the phone, I've been there. You know, you're talking to someone who's, you know, the same age. You know, we we probably grew up similar. You know, we you know have had corporate careers maybe, or we have kids and we could share some of those those headaches and those pains and those troubles and those worries. So I I understand uh where where that where that stress lies in that individual. Um, and when I had nutritionists myself, and they're like 26, 30 years old, no kids. It's like, no, we don't share the same 24 hours. You could be like, well, we have the same 24 hours, you know. No, no, we don't have the same 24 hours because you don't know what my pressures are, what my anxieties are, what my responsibilities are, you know. So it's like we don't share the same 24 hours. And that's why when I got into nutrition coaching, I really wanted to target this age group because I've been there, I've done that. I failed and failed and failed and failed and failed. And the only reason why I'm in the situation I am now is because I failed more than everybody else until I finally succeeded, you know. So I think uh I think we're we're able now to really provide a great service to the midlife crew um and hopefully like help them, you know, uh move forward.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, go ahead, Derek.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say, um, no, that's that's what I'm most excited about this journey because I I know that we're going to keep up with the progress and other people are gonna hear this because even when I stopped eating, like like you said, like I'd known women who have starved themselves, I didn't even consider other guys, you know. I'm like, well, I'm special and unique, so I'm the only person to starve myself and being a boy. Uh no, of course that doesn't even make sense, but it didn't even occur to me because we don't talk about it. And and I love what you said, Jess, like like just to be vulnerable or whatever, whatever it was you said, like that. Um just be vulnerable with yourself and just take that step for care for yourself, which is not what we ever hear. Like, I d at least in our age group growing up, that is that is that is a failure in itself for you to stand up for, which makes no sense whatsoever. So I'm I'm excited just to do this and um connect to other people who are thinking the same way. Like, I thought I was the only one. I was like, no, we're all out here, and um we can be a good resource for each other.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What um, so if we go back to modeling, right? And we're talking about being the generation that's sort of breaking the mold or the generational trauma of not talking about it. What were both of your models for like what it was to be a functional man?
SPEAKER_02:That's deep.
SPEAKER_00:I know.
SPEAKER_02:How long? How long do we have to talk?
SPEAKER_00:It's like, okay, we've been going for like 40 minutes. Like just and and maybe we don't answer that today, but I think that's like where the next conversation goes is like, all right, we're breaking the mold or the model, but like what was the model? We we need to identify what the model is if we're gonna create a new one so we don't end up accidentally replicating parts of it, right? We want to leave what needs to be left back there.
SPEAKER_02:I think, and I'm not gonna go into to great detail because there's other people involved in in my model that I don't want to uh include. Um, so I won't go into a lot, but I can say that I think I don't think that I had a model um going into my uh uh mindset change. Um I think uh certain experiences in life, maybe trauma, put me in a situation where I had no option. Like I had to open up, I had to be vulnerable, it it happened. And from there, after the door opened, it was a little bit easier. Uh easier in a sense that I could have better conversations with my family, my wife, um, my friends, and I could be a little bit more open and just like kind of like say how it is instead of keeping things behind closed doors. Now, with that said, it also became more difficult because all of my skeletons got exposed, right? So, you know, the dirty laundry's out now. I gotta wash it and fold it in front of everyone. So I don't think that I had a specific model that pointed me in the direction of being vulnerable and getting my health together. Um, however, I feel like I feel like I am equipped to hopefully provide that model for other men. I hope that I hope that the guys that are listening to the podcast that I've been on with you are not having to make panicked calls to their friends because they're, you know, kind of losing it, you know, or or in a freaked out state and they're afraid to leave their house kind of thing. So I hope that, you know, the information that I could put out there and the help that I could provide, you know, other fellows my age can provide them with a model um so they don't go through the panic attack type stuff that uh that forced me uh to change.
SPEAKER_00:Fucking panic attacks, man. So I was thinking as you were talking, I'm like, all right, if if we don't have a model, right? And mine was really about like the mental health side of it. If I don't have a healthy model of mental health, then I'm going to hit my own version of rock bottom.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So that I can create the model. So I think so many of these conversations are like be proactive and just observing what your model might have been, observing your current experience with wanting to change something and how that's going. And then get the help and support to change the model. We create based on models subconsciously. That's how our brains function. So like we can say all day long, I don't want to become like my mother or my dad or whomever. Your brain, there's a 95% chance that you will in so many ways because that's what your brain was modeled. And so you have to change the model. And for a lot of us, when we don't know which levers to push to actually change it, not just wanting it to be different, but making it different, we hit a rock bottom. And that's usually when we like wake up to it and do whatever we have to do to figure out how to change the model or to build one for the first time. And that's such a shitty well, and I will say, I think many of us that go through that end up becoming teachers. We end up becoming supporters. You firsthand understand the entire process from hitting a rock bottom, crawling your way out of it. There's no better trajectory for learning tools and how they work. There just isn't. You're going to be a great teacher. But for people who are not going to end up teachers, like there's no reason for you to get to rock bottom. There's just not.
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_00:Like follow the first red flag and ask for support and get help. Because if this isn't going to end up being your life and career, you really don't need to go all the way down to the bottom of the ravine. You just don't. Like, don't do that.
SPEAKER_02:Rock bottom is not a cool story. You know, it's it's not it's not like a tattoo that you could be like tell the story, like, oh yeah, I was out with my friends, we did this, and we all got the same tattoo, right? It's not a cool story. Rock bottom is absolutely dreadful. And if you can avoid it, not only will it be good for you, but it will be good for everybody around you. Because, like, if you like you said, Katie, if you see that first red flag and you act on it, you make the phone call, whether it's to your significant other, a friend, you know, just a buddy that's gonna hear you out, or you like, I need a nutritionist or I need a therapist, right? You're avoiding rock bottom and you're getting yourself better, and everybody's gonna reap the benefits of it. So you're not just doing it for yourself, but you're doing it to protect all your relationships and those people that truly care for you. So yeah, look, look for it. If you see that red flag, or ladies that are listening, because in is primarily the primarily the audience. If you see a red flag in someone you know, be willing to have the hard conversation because that hard conversation now is a lot better than a hard conversation in five years. So, you know, it's we we all have a responsibility in this, you know. So I think uh for the guys, it's not easy for us to open up, but uh damn, I encourage you to do so.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and Derek, I want to hear from you on that a little bit before we wrap. And I we're gonna revisit this. So I think you know, Jensen and I talked about in our first episode about how to how women can broach these topics with their husbands. So any woman that's listening, if you think your husband could benefit from some self- care work, some therapy work, nutritionist work, support of any kind for mental, physical, emotional body, how much fear do you think do you have like pop up in your body when you think about talking to him about it? Right. So I I watch a lot of couples really struggle with this, where it's like, I have a concern for my partner and their mental, physical, or emotional health. How do I talk to them about this? And then we get into like, okay, what's what's the communication status in the relationship? You know, me as a therapist, the mark of a healthy relationship for two adults is being able to have hard conversations. And we want to get you to a place where you can sit down and say, like, hey partner, I have concerns about your physical health or your emotional health. And I want to support you in that here, like let's talk about it, right? If if you cannot do that, if you're at a place in your relationship where that feels threatening, scary, or you're just like, fuck ass, no, my husband hasn't gone to the doctor in a decade, but I know he needs to. That is a triple red flag for the health of your relationship and the health of your partner. Right. And so, like, what I would love to do is as we continue to have these conversations, is talk through like the male and female side of having them, of how to set that up, of the way to work through and process that and to model it for people, right? This we're gonna model healthy conversations because that's a huge part of it. Like you said, we need the family on board. But if I can't have this conversation, I'm not able to have other ones either. So we have so many different layers that we need to work through in order to get to the best outcome. So my hope is in in this podcast and conversations like this, we can start to model that for people and give them real-time examples of how we've done that with clients or with our own partners or with ourselves. Um, because it is it is so layered.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm I'm I'm so happy that that you just said that. Like with like if women are listening for their partners, because um that like for men, like growing up, uh, not only do you not talk about it, you're gonna get in trouble if you talk about it. And it's also gonna be your fault if something happens to you because you spoke of it. And uh, so if I see a red flag, I'm like, I have not only do I ignore that red flag, I have to take that red flag and go bury it in the yard. Like I got to make sure it doesn't exist, and that's how I grew up. So uh when I see a red flag, I it it didn't mean anything. And I just keep going through life. I'm like, I don't know why I can't function in life, and I don't have anybody to talk to, someone that like, you know, with your partner, you know, that's someone you trust, and to have someone that you can trust that could talk to you, and it might be like if someone tried to talk to me, I know it's for the longest time, like I don't even know how to respond to that. And even even when I'm like, I'm shut down, I'm not listening, I kind of am. I'm still listening, and it's gonna be like you're chipping away, chipping away. And um and I just think it's really important is if you could just stick with it and uh and get through to them because there's so many, so much shit. Like I said, I had to bury those flags underneath the dirt. You have to dig, get through that dirt before you can get to the flag to talk about it. And um I just think that's really important. If I had that, like, like who knows where I would be right now. But I I just I was just like lost at sea, basically. Like, like I have nowhere to go here. I don't know what to do because when I feel like I should be doing something, I'm told that is the absolute wrong thing to do. And I feel like that's a with men, that is um, especially in our age, um, that that's what we've been taught.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like there's no room for your problems here. Oh that's what I feel like I'm hearing from you guys. And it's like absolutely painful. And I also will say, like, before we wrap, um something I heard from three different men last week that was like, oh, that sucks. That a block to being open and vulnerable was the fear that if I say this, it's gonna be weaponized against me in the future.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And that made me feel so sad for you guys. I was like, oh, I have three different people. And I was like, wow, uh okay, that's so helpful, you know, as a therapist that works with men and women, but damn guys, that's so bad.
SPEAKER_01:I've experienced that, and that's that's what caused like my my biggest shutdown was I was like, oh, so because you know my past, you literally like like, did you just bury me because you knew you could weaponize against me? You know, that's what it felt like the whole thing. And and I'm like, okay, so I don't have problems. And if I do, you're the last person I will ever speak to about it because you will use it against me. And I was like, this just reminds me of uh when I was a child, and I'm like, I have a problem, and and like now I'm in trouble because I had a problem. It's the same thing, so um yeah, it's um it does suck, it's hard.
SPEAKER_02:I don't like that I heard that, Derek. Like you know, I'm I'm I'm sorry. Uh at the same time, Katie, that that validates what we talked about in our previous podcast, you know, about like you know, ladies when you're talking to your your your other half, you know, when you when you talk to them about vulnerable things, they need to have like peace at home. You know, there needs to be a place where that they trust that they can open up, you know, because otherwise, you know, they're in their they're in the yard burying the flags. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, a heart attack. That that's how it felt like. I was like, I'll just die, that'll be easier.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so we're we're coming back to life, and I again I think this podcast is gonna be such a great way to help model some of these behaviors because we've established that it's layered, we established that there's so many different pieces holding the whole house of cards in place. It it's not just sitting down and having one conversation. Well, I asked him to go to the doctor once and he didn't. Like, nope, like this is gonna be very slow. It reminds me of like adopting the two-year-old dog that's been abused from the shelter, and like they're not gonna be like crawling in your bed like happy puppy the next day. This is a long trust-building process. Um, and when you have history with your partner, all of your histories are in the room. They're all at the table with us. So, like, it's not necessarily gonna flow easily, but it's worth doing. So um, I think this will be I'm just excited to continue the conversation, to keep up with your progress, Derek, to see how those baselines go, to watch your energy come back and your brain fully bloom online and to see and hear about Jensen's feedback and and how this works. Um, and if anybody's interested and wants to work with Jensen, his information will be in the show notes as well. I'm also going to include both of their Instagram handles. So give them a like and a follow because I think this journey is gonna get really interesting. So stay tuned. Thank you guys so much.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
unknown:Thank you.
