My Dad, Part 2: Parenting, Anxiety, and the Seasons of Growing Up

In this second episode with my dad, we go way past “how was your week” and straight into the kind of honest, reflective conversation most families wish they could have without someone storming off to fold laundry aggressively.

We talk about what it looked like to build a family without a clear “roles and responsibilities” script, how my parents approached parenting with fairness between a daughter and a son, and what my dad believes the real job of parenting is: giving your kids the tools, the grounding, and the freedom to become themselves.

Then we get into the deeper stuff.

We unpack “broken bird syndrome” and how kids can become distracted by other people’s unmet needs, why co-parents have to share information (especially when something is going on emotionally with a child), and how overparenting can become a well intentioned substitute for getting the right support.

I share a story I’ve only pieced together fully as an adult: how a childhood abduction attempt at Disney quietly shaped anxiety patterns later, and why early intervention matters more than we realize. My dad reflects on how easy it is to assume “all’s well that ends well” and miss the downstream impact.

We also talk about the moment a parent realizes their child is no longer a little girl, but an independent adult. We revisit pivotal memories (volleyball, church confirmation, and more), how strong will is formed, and how relationships evolve in seasons.

This episode is part parenting conversation, part nervous system education, part “it’s never too late to change the model.”

You can reach us here:

Katie Kovaleski:

Website:
KatieKovaleski.com

Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/coach_katiek/

Work with me: Book your 20 minute connection call here: 

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Wavier & Release of Liability and Disclaimer: The information provided by the therapist(s) is not intended, nor is implied to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice.  The listener is advised to always seek the  advice of their health care practitioner or other qualified health care provider with questions regarding medical conditions, or the mental health and welfare of the listener. I (listener) accept that Kathryn Kovaleski is not liable for any injury, or damages, to person or property, resulting from listening to this podcast. 

Transcript

Feedback And A Private School Dilemma

SPEAKER_03 0:01

So, how have you been feeling since our last podcast recording? Any thoughts, comments, feedback?

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Uh no. I listened to it and uh it was good. Um I didn't like the way I sounded. I sounded like I was had something in my mouth some of the time. But other than that, it was good. And um got some feedback from a friend of mine who listened to it and she thought it was great. Hadn't heard from her actually in over a year or more, and she heard it and inspired her to contact me. So we're having dinner next week. So yeah, it was nice. So it was good. That's exciting. It was good, yeah, it was fun.

Broken Bird Syndrome And Environment

SPEAKER_03 0:48

So something interesting happened after um we did the podcast. And I think I told you last week and now I have a story to tell you. And I had a client reach out and ask me, do you do you think I listened to the podcast? And do you think I should send my kid to private school? I was like, well, that's a loaded question. I never meant to go there. Um, and as I started talking her through that, you know, her son has what we call like broken bird syndrome, which she also has and I've had in the past. And that basically is like when we're around people who need help, we have a really strong impulse or urge to like rescue, fix, and save. And my mom is also that way. And so when I started thinking about that, I thought, you know, when you're in a school system or even in a house, like you basically share a nervous system with the people around you. And I told her, you know, upon thinking about it, I said, private school is actually probably a really good choice for people like me with the broken bird syndrome because the majority of the kids, if not all of them, all of their basic needs were met in that setting. Right. So the kids at private school had enough clothing, inappropriate clothing. They had shelter, they had food. As far as we know, at least their basic needs were met. And I think had I been in a setting where kids were coming from households where their needs were not being met, that I would have had a much harder time concentrating in school and probably would have gotten um into more trouble and definitely more um distracted and ingrained into stuff like that. Like if someone next to me clearly like hadn't changed clothes in three days, I would want to help them and figure out what was going on. And that would have been very distracting.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

And so I was like, you know, my new theory is that kids with, you know, broken bird syndrome probably will do better in an environment where the people around them have their basic needs met. We're gonna be a lot less distracted.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, where they aren't broken.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Yeah. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Good. So is she is she is she going to?

SPEAKER_03 3:01

She was like, that that my feedback was very interesting. Um, and I think we're gonna talk about it in her next session because um I had never thought about it in those terms before. And when I articulated that to her, she was like, that makes a lot of sense and like puts a different perspective on this for me.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

It does make a lot of sense if you know that the if you know that the the kid in this instance is of that nature, then it does make a lot of sense because you don't in school at that age is hard enough as it is, there are enough other distractions from the outside without adding one from the inside.

Parenting Roles And Early Decisions

SPEAKER_03 3:37

So yeah, yeah. So benefit to private school. So when I was thinking today about what we wanted to talk about, um, I actually asked one of my girlfriends who listened to the podcast if she had any questions based on the podcast. So we're gonna talk about some of those. Um one of her questions was about, and and I got another question about this too. Um what when you were married and starting to build a family, did was there um a clear conversation about like household roles and what were your expectations of how involved you'd be or what role you play in the family and with kids?

Equity Between Raising Son And Daughter

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Um I I don't I don't recall that there was a specific conversation of that nature. But there were there was a continuing conversation about when and if to have children and if there was reluctance to have kids, what that what those what that was and um and yeah, I I don't to be honest at this point don't recall that there was a specific conversation, but there were a number of those, and I don't know that any of them um got down to a kind of a hard and fast decision about well, this is your role and this is my role, and so forth. Um I think it was kind of understood given we've been together for nine years um that we were both responsible adults and that we would do what we had to do to be sure the kids got what they needed. So I don't I don't recall there being a conversation like that. No, there was on an ongoing conversation about that centered around do we have them and if we do, when do we have them? And and then um and then because Becky took off basically five years from working when you guys were first well more than that, six maybe when you guys were first born, and then until you got to school, she we we did there was a conversation about that, but we decided she would stay uh stay home and take care of the kids. I I recall, I think I probably told you this, but I recall driving to work the first morning that Michael was back home from the hospital, and there's a a daycare center on 436 that I would go by every day and never really noticed it. And then that day, that morning, driving by there, I saw you know some parents dropping their kids off their small kids, and I had this sort of panic attack, but this sort of upwelling of uh anxiety based on what would how and I feel if we had to drop Michael off in that case, there, and it wasn't a good feeling, and so it kind of confirmed our decision to forego the extra income for that period of time and have one of us at home with the kids. As a matter of fact, there I guess there was kind of a number of conversations. I recall at the time saying that if you know, if Becky could replace my income, then I'd be happy to stay home when that wasn't gonna happen. So um, yeah, uh it's a it's an ongoing series of conversations um that we ultimately decided that she would stay home and be the caretaker of the kids, and I would I would be, I I would work.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Yeah. I mean, it seemed like that was her preference too.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

It didn't seem like I think, oh, it was she, yeah, yeah, definitely. She wanted to be, she wanted to be a mom, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Do you remember ever having like in real time or preemptively conversations about like the type of parenting style you guys wanted to have, or how you would set different rules or expectations, or um like what were there differences in the way that you approach raising a girl and a boy?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Um once again, I I I suspect that there were I again can't recall specifically that, but there there were a number of conversations about expectations and those kinds of things. And by and large, we were pretty much on the same footing on most things in terms of what we expected, how we expected kids to behave, and how we would reinforce that behavior and uh discourage the behavior we didn't care for. And um, I mean I I think by and large we were on the same page on on most of that in terms of uh differences in raising a boy and a girl. I don't recall if there were any conversations about that specifically, and um and and and so I suspect that we didn't there wasn't much of a distinction in how we what we expected of you, for example, and what we expected of Michael. Uh at least not that I recall on my side anyway.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Um yeah, I would agree with that. It felt um equitable, like everything felt pretty equitable. It didn't have anything to do with uh some of the questions that were being asked was about you know, some parents or some dads in particular parent their daughters definitely than they do their sons. Um and I I didn't feel like that happened.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Um I'm sorry that I'm saying that again.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

That some I think parents, especially dads in different cultures, but I think it's just in different families, tend to parent their daughters differently than they parent their sons.

Boundaries, Styles, And Letting Kids Learn

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, I say we didn't have that, I don't I don't think we ever had that conversation, but um I think there was a an under an understanding that uh we we weren't gonna do that. I and I I don't I'm glad to hear that you felt like it was equitable because that was certainly the intent.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Yeah, especially like it's interesting too, coming from you know, in your family, you had two brothers. There's only three boys in the family, there was no daughters, there's no girls. And so how do you think not having any like female siblings, any sisters factored into raising a daughter? Like, did you even notice that, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Did you feel um you know I don't think I felt it, I don't think I felt it as much as as my dad did, for example, because because um he had a sister, um but within the the rest of the family it was all boys, and um I think uh again we didn't have this discussion, but just in watching how he reacted, I I think he wasn't quite sure how to deal with a granddaughter. Um and my and my approach was you deal with it like your other child. To an extent, a child's a child is a child. And um while gender obviously plays a role in all kinds of things, at least in terms of approaching how you raise kids, uh I didn't see much difference, no.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Yeah, and that was my experience too. And one of the questions she asked was, you know, was your dad more cautious or protective or more catering to you? And that question made me laugh a little bit. I was like, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

I don't think so. I mean, I don't think so either. I I think I think we lent both of you the same encouragement, the same direction, the same discipline, the same hand holding. I I I don't mean if if if if there was a difference, it was not intentional. And I and I think uh on the other side of that coin, I think whether uh consciously or not, I think we we tried to be sure that there weren't those differences. Um yeah, I agree with that.

Childhood Trauma, Anxiety, And Overparenting

SPEAKER_03 13:05

I think the only expectations I was ever really aware of or felt like were in place were just there was always seemed to be an expectation around education or going to college, but but and I never felt, and I don't know if you and mom ever talked about this or what your own maybe expectations voiced or or not were around our personal lives, but I also there was never there never seemed to be any imposed expectations on our career path or our personal lives as far as an expectation or um like a projected desire on get married, have kids, etc. etc. Like you know, I never felt any of any of that.

Co‑Parent Transparency And Getting Help

SPEAKER_01 13:43

And I think there, I think there wasn't. I think um I think the underlying approach was to try to give you all the tools to make the best use of whatever gifts you happen to have, and that would include obviously good education, it would include uh, I would hope, some kind of moral and ethical grounding, uh, both in what we said as well as how we lived our lives and approached things. And if we gave you those that kind of grounding, those kinds of tools, then our our role was kind of over because at that point um you've you've nurtured as much as you can, and and nature's going to take over at that point. And if we've done our job, um then we shouldn't have to give an off-law direction. This is a little well, it's I mean, it's it's on it's on topic. One of the management stories I picked up over the course of the years was that there was a company in Japan where the president or chairman, whichever the president, every year or every periodically would call in uh and say, Mr. Yamamoto just died, and hang up the phone. And he did it as a test to see if he put in place the right processes, the right people, the right strategy, the right organization for the company to make its own decisions and move along. And I think that's sort of the way we approached child raising. I think if if we give the right grounding, the right tools, the right help in trying to form all those, make better use of those tools that you have innately, then the decisions you make at that point, whether it's personal or career or education or whatever, are really yours to make. And and I guess the other step of that would be that if I think we try tried uh to be available so that if you had questions on how you were going to process things, we were uh open and available enough that you wouldn't hesitate to do that. But in terms of directing either of you to you know certain personal relationships or whatever, I don't think we tried to. I don't think we tried to.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

No, yeah, I would agree with that. Um, if you had seen one of us going in a direction that you knew probably wasn't a great idea, how hard was it to not insert yourself? And would would you like do you consider yourself somebody who uh if you see something, say something, or are you more like stand back and let them learn?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

And if they need support through that, how how do you can you recall a time when you probably a little probably a little bit of both, um and I think you have to pick and choose those times and those situations. And if the situation or the potential decision is one that could have deep and long long-lasting impact on somebody, so it's a kind of big big one, then I think as much as you might not want to, you need to probably insert yourself in some manner, way, shape, or form. But if it's something less than that, then I think you you know, I think that the the lesson the lesson learned is much is much better learned if the lesson gets learned and experienced. And um it's a little bit of both. You gotta kind of pick and choose. I mean, I I think I think your mother might have uh uh it naturally wanted to be a little more of what they now call the help helicopter mother, so she's always there, but neither of us did that, I don't think.

How Early Events Shape Bonds

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Yeah, I mean it it's interesting, like having hindsight now, and I think probably part of that is being in like the career path that I'm on. But um, you know, I felt like yeah, she was more of a helicopter mom, I think, as far as like um emotionality goes. Like it, she she wanted to be like really enmeshed, like very close. Like this parenting and mothering, I think fulfilled something in her that nothing else really could, but also like sometimes that it was taken too far. Like it didn't seem not to seem, it wasn't ever easy for her to let go and like let the the kids kind of go out and and and be fully interdependent. That was something I had to like learn on my own as an adult when I realized that codependency was like kept coming up in relationships. Um, and I think that was also like post you divorcing her, too. Um, but I think that definitely helicopter parenting when your children are young can often evolve into being codependent with them as they get older. And so I think having conversations about that is probably really tough because there's probably a fine line when kids are young. Um and did you ever notice that having her as a partner that perhaps there was like an overdoing it of the helicoptering?

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Um yeah, there there probably were, but but I I have to say I I whether um I had a moderating influence on that or whether she uh understood that you could go too far with that. I don't know that I don't know that sh I said I think I think her natural inclination was to be there and all the time, but omnipresent. Um but I don't think I think I don't think she did um all the time anyway. And I think as I say whether that's because we had conversations or she just innately understood that that we would have a conversation if she went too far, or she understood herself that she shouldn't go past a certain amount. You know, I think that her the tendency was there. I don't know that she always succumbed to the temptation to do that. I mean, there were times where um I thought probably there was a little attempt at overzealous help, but I don't think it happened very often, at least not that I recall too too much.

Moments That Revealed Adult Identity

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Yeah. And so I think that to give a kind of an example of this, uh this is obviously like outside of the norm, but I think it's important for parents that are listening to um not underestimate the impact that certain events, especially like prior to the age of seven, have on kids, and to know when to outsource help and support. So I've talked about before briefly, but when I was like maybe four, I got separated from my parents at downtown Disney and a man picked me up, like tried to abduct me. And that was incredibly terrifying, but also led to, in hindsight, putting the pieces together, a bunch of sort of different anxieties and like kind of panic phobia situations for me that my mom picked up on later on, like when I was in fifth grade specifically, and was having these like panicky episodes that in hindsight, I realized she never even told you about. And she recognized that there was something going on. And in lieu of getting me help or support professionally, that I likely needed her response to that was to overparent. So if I got anxious or panicky, if I walked out of school and couldn't see her first in the carpool line, which was actually what was happening, she would make sure to get there 30 minutes early and always be first. Um, instead of saying, hey, I think something's coming up with her as far as I mean, in the situation and the parallels are there. This is how trauma works. Like I'm three or four, I get separated from my mom in a very busy space. A man grabs me. I'm looking for my mom. I have a panic attack, basically. And then years later, same situation. I'm looking for my mom, I can't find her, I have panic. And then, and that was really like put to bed at bay from it ended abruptly in fifth grade. I don't know why or how. And then it came up again, you know, in my 30s, which we'll kind of circle back to a little bit more today, too. And it was so confusing for me to figure out where this had come from and what the origin was. And eventually I did. And she admitted, you know, I recognize you needed help, and I I didn't get it for you. I decided to overparent you instead.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah, I I mean obviously I recalled the incident at Disney. Um, but I I didn't know that you're right. I I did I wasn't she didn't share with me what else was going on later on. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Yeah, and and so I I think what advice would you give parents? Like I think, especially like in this day and age, like people are busy, they're overscheduled, I think they underestimate what the the impact certain events might have on their kids later on. And so based on like that story, what would you tell a parent um as far as how to how to co-parent successfully um in making sure that parents are communicating, right? Like, like what how would quote should that situation have been handled? And how might it have turned out differently like in that fifth grade era if you had been aware of what was going on?

Quitting Volleyball And Knowing Yourself

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, the I mean there these are obviously all hypothetical questions, and and I and so I it's uh hard to answer that. I I I the answer though, I think, is obviously obviously I should have been aware of that. And and so I think that's uh the critical piece, the answer to the question you're asking. I think uh you uh there needs to be transparency there so that both parties in the relationship are operating with the same facts. Um now at the time if she had raised that issue with me. I mean I can't remember, I can't think back that time to that point, but uh I would like to think that at that point we would have had a conversation by getting some help. Um and uh but but I we didn't have the same information, and I think our approaches might might have been a little different at that point in terms of her approach was kind of self-help and over parenting and getting there half an hour earlier. Um I I I would like to think that my approach might have been to find some outside resources, but uh, but it's hard to say because I mean time has passed and I I have a probably a different perspective on outside help and counseling than I may have had at that time. Um but the bottom line is when one party father or mother recognizes something is going on with the kid, they they need to share that with all parties concerned. Otherwise, you can't you're you aren't making decisions.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Yeah, no, I agree. And I I think too, there's a level of like uh parentified guilt there. Like I my story on that is that she felt really guilty that day for like quote, losing me even though it wasn't her fault. And I think she tried to um make it better, right? Of by overcompensating, which ends up not helping anybody. And so I think part of it is when something happens with one of your children, being able to own how you feel about it and separate that from what action needs to be taken so that everybody can kind of get whatever help that they need. Um, but uh but but situations like that, interestingly enough, like sort of trauma bonded me to her. I felt closer to her because she knew everything. She was aware of information that at the time I was not aware you didn't know and that she didn't share with you. But it kind of trauma bonded us together in a different way than I felt connected to you. So I remember growing up and even on free times and the weekends, like you would go golfing with Michael, I would be running errands with mom. It was almost like you, you were more aligned with him and she was more aligned with me. And that might just happen because of like hobbies and preferences and stuff like that. But that was sort of my like synopsis of childhood. I just felt closer to her, spent more time with her. And I think part of that was this like triangulation effect of her knowing everything and and being kind of secretive about it for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Probably that's probably I I think a good bit of that was, as you said, had to do more with common interests and those kind of things, as opposed to um preference of one child over the other. Uh, I mean, I really I think that's what it was because you know, I outside of um playing golf with him on the weekend, I I think uh we try to spend or I try to spend as much time doing stuff with you around the house as we we did I did with Michael and I can whether it was throwing it up in the air or kicking you over my head with handstands, the rest of it for that brick fireplace right there. I see a picture of you doing kind of a handstand or flip back over me on the hearth of the fireplace right there. And that's that's where I'm thinking, my God, what were we thinking?

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Yeah, child proof. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

I think I think it I think it had to do more with, as you said, common or shared interests. It had to do with preference of one over the other. But that is how it worked out.

Faith, Pressure, And Personal Conviction

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Yeah. And I mean, I think in hindsight, too, especially like as a therapist, I do see the role that like unprocessed like trauma and different things plays in the parent that you bond to. I I do know and believe that, you know, the the Disney catalyst and then her seeing some of those behaviors pop up in me later and her being the one to kind of save and rescue me from those in whatever way she thought was like best or appropriate at the time, um like connected us in a different way and really bred some of that codependency. I think like a lot of the way that I might have shown up would have been different had I not had that initial sort of like anxiety, panic, spiral as a small child. Like I think I can trace a lot of different patterns of behavior back to kind of that origin. And so I just say that so anybody's listening with kids can understand not to underestimate the impact that different events have. Assume that there will be an impact is what I would say. And then just keep your eyes open to watching their behaviors and not just in the the brief interim after it happens, but for years after. And when you notice something coming up, like them having a panic attack if they can't see you, and it crosses your mind that this might be related to something that happened years before, like get them help for that. Like you don't need to overparent, like it's just get them help.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

That's it. And I think that is good advice because I I don't uh I I don't know that I understood. I don't know, I shouldn't say it that way. I didn't understand the the nature of the impact that had on you at the time. Looking back at it, and after talking about now, I can understand that, but at the time, I don't think I think the I think the reaction was all is well that ends well. We found you, we got you, everything is fine. Right. And you don't think about the downstream effect.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't have either. Like I was about to just say that all is well that ends well. Um, and it's really what happened to the in the interim, right? Um so I hope that somebody's listening that finds that useful. So one of the other questions that was asked, um, was there a specific time you remember when your view of me changed or became clear? Like when you saw me as my own adult person instead of like your your little girl, your daughter?

Phases Of A Father–Daughter Relationship

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I guess I'll answer it this way. Incidents, things that happened which were revealing to me about the kind of character and character that you you had that um stuck with me. One one was quite a long time ago. It's when you went to uh volleyball camp, I think, out of town in Lakeman maybe, and it's kind of when you quit playing volleyball because the coach got on you and you didn't care for the way she was hand was treating you and you came back and you were gonna quit. And I I think I was uh probably opposed to that, but you were adamant and um and I began to learn at that point that while you were that was kind of early teens, I think, um that you were pretty independent, that you knew yourself pretty well, and that you were not gonna stand for things that interfere with that even at that age. And even though I disagreed with the decision to quit. Um but but you were still our quote little unquote girl at that point. Um there are probably other incidents, there are probably other times in the course of the the distance between the that and then later. But the for me and this may be more of a commentary on my lack of paying attention or not putting the things together, which is entirely possible. But the time that frankly that we spent when you were staying with me a couple of years ago um probably made the biggest impression because I, you know, I I don't know that I was we never spent much time talking about what you were doing for a living and all those kinds of things. And so that was the time when I probably came to understand. And it's kind of it's that's a condemning statement for me that would take me that long. Yeah always known that you were bright, incredibly observant, uh being able to put things together given what your experience had been. Um but that four or five month period. Um, I got to know you as an adult, and that that's the the the relationship between parents and children is wholly different. And I wish that most parents could spend that much one-on-one time with their kids individually, because you get a whole different understanding, no matter how much you may observe like it's living with somebody as opposed to you know uh just having a relationship outside. It's a huge difference, and so those are the two kinds of things stick out to me. Um and yeah, I mean I I say it may be a condemning statement for me that took me that long to figure it out, but I knew that you had pretty strong will. I knew that uh you were smart, I knew that you spent some time sorting things out in your personal life that applied to what you're doing in business, but we really hadn't talked that much about it until we spent that time together.

Panic, Golf, And Rebuilding Connection

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Yeah. Yeah. No, those are those are great examples, and I forgot about the volleyball one until you mentioned that. And I think that's probably a very um accurate example because I think that was the first time I felt like I had been treated in a way that was unacceptable, and I I did not care what the consequences were gonna be of like saying this was not okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

I'm not yeah, and we I mean there were no there were no heated discussions. I mean, I you know, I have a strong athletic strong athletic background, and so and I've had coaches that were jerks as well, but I but I stayed with it, and that uh I said there were it wasn't it wasn't a heated discussion. I think we were supportive of whatever you felt was best for you, but I but from my perspective, I thought um you stick it out, but you were you were strong and just adamant about that decision. And so that's I think in in concert with how we had again tried to give you guys the tools to make your own decisions was something we had to live with.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah, and I think like reflecting on it, you know, I still have like dreams here and there about playing volleyball. I I really loved it. I loved it playing more than any other sport I played, and I just I I don't regret regret quitting to this day because I she would have made me hate the game. And I knew that. I was like, if I stay, I will hate I will hate playing, and I I don't I'm never gonna allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Like I can't interest interesting, and this is kind of a diversion, but but it's um but here's the uh here's the other side of that. And of course, as it turns out, she stayed there, so she would have been there. But in my case, uh we had a guy uh through my junior year in high school who you know off the off the basketball court he taught English and he was a good guy. We we all used to spend not just athletes, but other people used to spend time talking with him just because he he was actually pretty good counsel and and we enjoyed that. But as a coach, I won't say he was abusive, but he you know, the the one example I can think of is that and his son was a year ahead of me in school and was kind of the star of the team. And I recall uh one night we a kid took a foul shot and I stepped in the lane too soon, he missed it. So they got the ball back and he made it, and we ended up losing by one. And he came storming in the locker room afterwards and slammed my locker shut and blamed it on me. And you know, if I were gonna quit at that point, that's when I would have done it. But if I had, I would have missed the next year when he was no longer there, and we had a coach that came in that I'm I'm still friends with uh 60 60 years later, uh, who who had a an impact on on me that uh for a long time, maybe you still to an extent, uh you ask yourself, what would what would Clemens do? Um and so that that's the other side of that. In your case, you made the right decision because she was there for the for the duration, and it would have been yeah, it would have been hell for you. Um yeah. But but that's that's the yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

Yeah. I mean, and I if I um if someone said, hey, you know, where did you sort of download or inherit the ability to like say like that's unacceptable, I'm not doing it, even if everybody thinks I should go along with it, I probably would point at you. So um you can take sort of credit for that of noticing when you don't agree with something and standing up for it, even if it's not convenient for other people or for yourself at times. Um, and because I I don't remember that being like a skill set I ever had to practice. It just it was something that came easily.

Choosing Divorce At Seventy

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Um again, it's one of those it's one of those things we talk about giv you know, giving you guys the tools in the background. I mean, I because I well at Politically, I went kind of I withstood the abuse there, the pressure, and stayed with it. There were other social situations in high school where yeah, kids were doing stuff that I didn't want to do, I thought was wrong and not valuable, and um and and not doing it was very uncomfortable for me and for them. Um, but um it wasn't right for me. And so you may you may have gotten some of that from me.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Uh well, let's talk about one more example of that same sort of character trait. The other one that really sticks out to me that I know was definitely impactful everybody was when um I refused to get confirmed at church. And I think that that was to me the the staunchest example of of something not making sense to me and feeling wrong and saying I'm not gonna do this, even though everyone around me was upset with that decision and trying to convince me to do otherwise. Um, and that's another like volleyball and church, those are both decisions that I don't regret. But at that the time, um I I mean I I know no one was happy with that decision that I made.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yeah, I think that's right. But interesting to me, uh if you'd have asked me before you just let that out of the bag, ask me now for uh other examples of your willingness to stand up to outside pressure. I'm not sure I would have used that one just because I at the time it was important to me, I guess, because I know there was a lot of discussion about it, but it's not one that stuck with me, interestingly enough. Um, but but but I mean, but you're right. Uh it wasn't an example of that kind of knowing what was good for you and despite other pressures uh um resisting them. Um but it's not one I would have thought of. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

And so let's sort of talk about like the the relationship that we have now. So one of the questions was is the relationship that we have now um one that you always knew you would end up having with me, or was it a surprise to you?

Ultimatums, Clarity, And Self-Respect

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Um no one no one know. Uh I don't know that I would have said that it's what I would have always thought it was gonna be. And I know it was not necessarily a surprise. Um and I I guess I I would add to that that um maybe looking back, I'm a little disappointed that we weren't able to get there some years ago because it would have been you know a lot the the the the the pleasure would have been a lot longer, a lot longer. But at the same time, I don't know that either of us were at a point where we could have gotten there uh any quicker. So, you know, everything's got its own season, and that just and that's we've we've eventually got there. But was it a surprise? Not not really. Um, you know, we the other thinking about now time spent with you and things that we did and the rest. You know, I used to take you to school almost every morning when I was in town, and uh we used to have when you were you know in Montessori, little, but we used to have conversations, we talk, we listened to chorus lines, the one I remember listening to, uh, and Huey Lewis in the news, because there was a song there that you used to like. So we we used to spend that time together, and I think that's where maybe some of the foundation took place because that was almost every morning, I think, for when I was not traveling. Um but so no, it's not a surprise, the disappointment that it took us that long to get there.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you know, some of the stuff I was writing about last week, with like that being a the 10-year anniversary since that fateful New York trip that we took.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

And for me, that's didn't know it was 10 years, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

It was 10 years on the 10th, so that was last week, and um reflecting on that, and and I I think that's where I can say I feel like the aftermath of that was like a tangible change and difference in a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Um I would agree, I think I would agree with that, but but but more from from your perspective than mine. I I mean I've said to people that you know uh my my summation reflection of our relationship goes in three or four different segments.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

Phases, seasons, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Well, seasons. The first one is when you were relatively young, and we did things together. We did the gymnastics thing in the living room, and we went to school together, and there were some we did the reading thing together. I mean, there were there was a lot of time spent there that uh was valuable and and fun, and and this was yeah, that was fun. And then what I said to people is that when you turned about 12, you became this sort of woman thing that wasn't really quite there yet, but was no longer a little girl. And my joke is I was always happy that you kept your hair clean because the only thing I ever got to kiss was the top of your head, and and um, and that and that continued uh I think I think really until the incident in New York. And and uh and I would agree. I um I mean that's looking to change a relationship was not the reason for my reacting the way I did. It was because uh in some ways you were still my little girl, and something bad was happening, and so you you deal with it. But I think you I think you're right. So that was kind of the third phase, and then the fourth phase, I think, probably started happening actually, probably after you were dating that goofball and ended up you know, you end up leaving. And I think that's probably the beginning of the fourth phase that got deepened than when uh when you were staying with me.

Old Wounds, Counseling, And Closure

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and I think something not to forget about that equation to uh the the guy I was dating that happened around the same time that you were getting divorced. And yeah, I I think that for like your part of it, I think that that was also a pivotal piece um in our relationship shifting.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Well, and I think yeah, part of that was probably uh my better understanding the value of um someone to talk to. I mean, I you know we we your mother and I started counseling and she walked out after the during the first session and said it's up to you, and so but I stayed with the guy, and I think at that point um and the very nature of the divorce itself, I guess probably made me, I think, a little more I hope, open and understanding. And then the second piece is understanding the value of someone to talk these things through with the and and uh and realizing that that's what you were doing. Um, I think probably was a big piece of it. You're I had forgotten it was around the same time as you were going through that with him. Um and uh and uh yeah, I think that's probably true.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, you know, the how enmeshed mom and I were up until you got divorced, it didn't leave a lot of room in the same room for you and I to have a really close relationship.

Redefining Happiness And Moving On

SPEAKER_01 49:05

No, it didn't, but you know, I interestingly, uh Katie, um it didn't, but that but that was uh well two things happened around that time, but they're related. One one is I remember you calling me or talking and saying, asking if we can go to the practice range together. And I said, for what? And you said you wanted us, you wanted to maybe think about playing golf, which was a which was a which was a thrilling uh uh uh occurrence and and one I one I jumped at, I think. Um but then and and that gave gave us gave me the gave us the contact time and the exposure because then I recall, you know, during the that week between when your mother and I had the kind of initial conversation, and I realized that this probably was not going to go anywhere beyond where it was, and spent that week talking with friends, thinking my way through what that would look like. And I think you and I played golf that week at the Winter Park 9, as I recall, and we were having a beer afterwards, and and I knew that you know you and your mother were pretty close, um at least seemingly, and so it was uh kind of a surprise and nice that we were having that time together, but then you asked me you know what what it was I was thinking about doing, and I didn't have a decision at that point, so I think I told you that. And part of the conversation as well that day from your side was I don't I'm not sure that I asked it, but you volunteered that you didn't have a preference one way or the other. You just wanted both of us to be as happy as we could be, and uh and that was very part of that transition from the second to the third phase, I suppose, that we talked about. Um that was very uh comforting and freeing for me because while you guys were both adults at that time, uh divorce has a obviously emotional impact and cost for everybody that's involved in the family. And so that was helpful to know that that was and and particularly coming from you, cool. I said you was, you know, had this close emotional time with your mother was very uh freeing and was a bit of a window into you that I guess they didn't hadn't had before. So I'm not sure where we I'm not sure where we started with that, but that's where it's gonna finish.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

Yeah, no, I I agree. I think I mean so we will attribute this back to 2015 in New York because the reason I started playing golf was because that had happened. And so my like post-panic attack, figuring my life out, nervous system was getting outside and doing something outside that would keep my attention and my focus. And golf happened to be on that list. And so I I it was sort of just part of my homework. And I was like, okay, well, let me go give this a shot. Um, and it and I ended up enjoying it, and it ended up like creating that space for us to have time together doing something that like you can actually talk to the other person about, which which then led to us being together that day. Um and and I just I was so I I think that day of the winter park nine where you basically, you know, were deciding, okay, I'm gonna get divorced. Um like I remember thinking like if I can help him feel like he has like a permission, like a green light to do this, like that's gonna be a really good thing because I just for so long I couldn't put my finger on what felt off about the marriage, but I just my deduction there was and still is they are less of who they really are when they're in the same room together. And there was something for me being in the presence of that, so there was something about that that was so uncomfortable, which was like I can't be in the same room with them, even if nothing's happening, nothing bad. I just had this impending doom feeling. But if I spend time with them separately, it's really enjoyable. And that that sort of became, I've often said in hindsight, like I learned more about love in a relationship, watching my parents get divorced than I ever did, watching them be together. I it was like the ultimate, like we're choosing ourselves here because even if you didn't say it this way, we're less of who we really are when we're around each other.

Wrapping Up And What’s Next

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Yeah, and I and uh and that if if the intent was to give a green light, then that's certainly, I mean, that's how I that's how I took it. I'm not sure what I've put it in those in those words, but um but that that it did have that effect. And uh, you know, um I've said we've had this conversation, but um if you'd have asked me you know six months before uh we decided to get divorced, if I was happy, uh the answer probably would have been yeah, you know, I yeah. Um but looking back at it. Yeah, is there are there are things that people you know that that you when you're in a relationship, long time relationship, you end up overlooking things or writing it off to being, well, that's just her. And so you you know, you kind of smooth over the the lump and the plaster and move on, uh because the because the alternative is at least at that point much more difficult. Um but uh after the divorce and when Anna and I were starting to see each other, I recall uh being in uh we were in Scotland for her retirement trip in 2018, you know, a year or so after the divorce. And uh I realized it was five o'clock over there, and the guys I usually take off with on Saturday were finishing up and having lunch, and so I called him just to check in and say hi because we've been gone for two or three weeks. And a friend of mine who answered who I called answered the phone, and he said, We were just talking about you. I said, Really? He said, Yeah. He said, We're just wondering if we have to put up with the happy chuck from now on. And uh that uh struck home because I wouldn't have characterized characterized myself before that as being unhappy. Um, so sometimes people outside uh see those things more clearly and um and uh if they're really good friends, I guess would tell you if you if you could be asked. Not the kind of things you volunteer to somebody unless you're asked. And um, and I wouldn't have asked that question before we went through the divorce. So, but so that conversation that you and I had at Winter Park 9 was it was as I think the word I use was freeing, and the green light is a good analogy, uh metaphor for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

Yeah. And I think it's a it's just a good reminder that it's never too late and like to start now. I think you know, if people are listening to this and they're just putting the timeline together, like how old were you when you got divorced?

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Um eight years ago, so I was 69, 70.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

Yeah. So getting divorced at 69 or 70 feels like like a non-possibility, I think, to a lot of people. And like again, it it I never viewed it that way. I I mean, I know that we had different conversations at times about like, you know, how am I gonna start over and date? And is that possible? I always knew it was possible. I just I think if if I could teach people one thing, it's just really to figure out how to integrate the belief that it's never too late for anything, really. Um, because it's not. And I think that you know, your marriage trajectory and story is such a good reflection of that. Like, and at some point, guys, it's like, well, I'd rather choose the fear of the unknown than than choose like the certainty of this just like slow like boiling to death, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Like, well, we are I mean yeah, I think that's that's right. And but to to that point, um if if Becky hadn't crystallized it for me, I'm not sure I would have gotten there, at least not as soon as I did. But when but when that one night we had a conversation and she effectively redefined the relationship um that crystallized a whole lot of things. And and I think if if if if she hadn't done that, I don't know what would have happened eventually, but even if we'd done the divorce, it would have taken more time. Um but it's you know it's a little bit like some of the things you've we've talked about with you and your background, is you you you see something that you know is not right for you, and it crystallizes a decision that you're not going to back away from. And that's what really happened here. I I say I don't know how long how much longer it would have gone on, but uh without that, um it certainly wouldn't have happened that that quickly. It basically took a week to figure it out, but but without that conversation, it wouldn't have happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

Yeah, it was definitely observationally like the fastest divorce ever, I think. From decision to oh, look, he's moving into a new house. It was like what six weeks or something, four or six weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Um yeah, so we moved in the house in January and then we had the conversation Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

Yeah, so really fast. And like, like I said, you know, I learned kind of more about love and the unfolding of the divorce than I did in the marriage, because even that, like, I I know it wasn't like quote easy, but like it there was no fighting, there was no yelling, there was no like uh we didn't we we we didn't ever do that, and we didn't hate each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

I mean, that's the thing. There was no it was it was it was subtle, it was hard to explain. Kind of was. I mean, I you know, I told her at that time, and then there was something that happened, she actually was a sermon in in church after the divorce. Father John said something about, you know, uh about not forgiving and forgetting so much as it was to if you you know feel like you've hurt somebody or you've caused them to be to have uh issues or problems. He said, you need to think about how you deal with that. And so I sent her a note and said, you know, we've just been through this, um, I said, but it was never my intent, whether before or after the divorce, uh to hurt you. Um because all of everybody wanted is for you to be happy. And so if in some way, whether before the divorce or afterwards, uh I caused hurt, then that was never my intention. I'm sorry for that. Um so yeah, that was the kind of you know, it was I won't say there was a sigh of relief, but I I I it was that may have been sort of what what it was.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Um was we both understood it was over at that point and let's move on.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

You know, uh I'm not gonna tell the whole story, but something happened in 1992 after the campaign that um he ran for Congress in 1992, just so anyone listening understands context for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

Yeah, but I'm sorry, and that um your mother was very disappointed in it, very disappointed. And at one point, because of something we were out one evening and we came home and she says something about well, we ought to just get divorced. And I said, Why? And she said, Well, because you know you lost the election and you're a loser and all that kind of stuff. And it's one of those, another one of those things where you kind of taper it over and say, Let's just her. She uses words she doesn't mean, and we'll get past that. But but the counselor I was saying, therapist we we that we started to see, but that I ended up seeing, said at one point, he said, Well, your marriage ended in 1982, you just didn't know it. And and I'm not sure I accept that, but but maybe he's right. And so I think that's why it was as quiet as it was at the end, because I think we were both sort of relieved without even realizing without even realizing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

Well, what's even more interesting, I don't know if you remember this, but probably six months to a year before you got divorced, the three of us had that same conversation about 1992. And it was, it was probably the a year and a half before this had happened. I think it was July of 2015 before the New York thing happened. And I, we were all in Michigan together, you, me and mom, and I just felt this.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

And you got you you guys ganged up on me.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Is that okay? So what I remember was trying to uh play Peacekeeper. And I remember one of you sent me an email about the other while the other was sending me a text, and I called both of you into the living room and was like, we're we're gonna just shout out whatever's going on here. And that's when I said, Well, where like where is the origin of what's happening here? Like, where is the breakdown happen? And she said, Well, in 1981, and you said, well, in 1992, and I said, like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Like, that okay, this is so systemic at this point because she had a grievance from 1981, you had one from 1992, arguably, like by the that therapist standards, okay, it ended then, but we all discussed that that day about how impactful that was, how like therapy and talking this through is important. And like, I just want to point to their the partner who resists or refuses to enter into a like appropriate support message measures, i.e., going to therapy, showing up, taking accountability is ultimately the one who is going to end the marriage. Like, there is just and that's that's what happened because I, you know, I said it to you a year and a half earlier, and everybody both of you were just kind of like, whatever, it's always been that way. And I'm like, oh, this is bad. This is really bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

I don't I don't know what happened in 81. I know what happened in 92. And I I think as a result, the con the I mean, I recall that conversation or recall being there in the cods with the two of you. I don't recall all the conversation at this point. I probably blanked it out, but um, but but I think the result was we did actually find that woman counselor that we went to for a while. Actually, you and I went to her once or twice too. Um and um we were going through some This was before that, I guess. We went through going through some issues at work and um and talking with the serious counselor. I forgot what the question was, but but my response was you know, the only place I feel safe is at home at this point. And and the counselor, because it looked like Becky didn't grasp it, looked at her and said, Don't you understand what he's telling you? And um, and then of course we went to the other guy later on and uh said you know we were there for less than an hour, and she said, Okay, you guys come up with a plan, and when you get a plan, call me and walked out.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:03

Uh almost it's a therapy meme at this point. I could make some about her.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

Yeah, and um but but technically I'm the one that instituted the divorce. I mean she put she put the conditions down that led to it, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

She teed you up for it. She teed you up for it, and that was a point of contention that I had with her for a long time, like overtly, because she would say things like, um, well, I'm the one who like you know initiated the divorce or whatever it was. And I was like, no, you didn't. I was like, you don't get to claim credit for that. Like the way that you approached that was so cowardly. It like so cowardly. You you teed it up, you kept pushing somebody until they hit their ledge, until they hit that tipping point. That is that is not initiating a divorce. That is, that is cowardice, and and unchecked can can teeter on like abuse category, right? Like, what do I have to do? And how far do I have to push this person until they say the thing that I'm afraid to say? Like, no, I I took her to task for that because I was like, that's disgusting. Like that is that is absolutely an inappropriate, emotionally immature way to initiate something. Like, you have some time.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:16

I I I just at the time, I guess I uh I guess I'm uh very apt to be manipulated because that's not how I that's not how I saw at the time. Um I don't know that I gave it much thought as to what uh manipulation there might have been going on. It's just that I knew that when that last condition got put in place, it that was not who I was, and that's that's not how that's not how I wanted to live the rest of my life. Um so where you I heard and then now I look back at it and think, well, it's entirely possible. That's because she liked she she liked to play games, and that was a game. Uh but at the time or afterwards, immediately even now. I give I give her credit for it for me, because it if if she hadn't given that ultimatum, I don't know, I'm not sure what I would have done at that point, other than move to the Mayflower.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:24

Yeah, no, I would I would credit the universe with with setting that up in a way that like you couldn't look away from, but I think that that like manipulation could have gone on indefinitely. I think that you it would have gotten worse and worse and worse.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

And I don't, you know, that's fine, that's probably right. I mean, all of us have a picture of ourselves, whether it's from whatever all the various outside influences, whether it's religion or parents or whatever else. But that's right, the divorce was never part of my picture. And and uh and even if I had admitted to not being happy, I'm not sure that would have been enough to change that picture. And we've all got that we all got that picture. I have I have two two instances in my life where that picture played a big role. And and the previous one was living in Wichita years ago, and uh and I got in the scale in the doctor's office. It was the first digital scale I've ever seen. It was in the late 70s, and it said 255. And man, I can this 50, it's a long time ago now, probably 50 years ago. And and I I can I can sit here now and feel the visceral the visceral reaction I had, which was, well, that's not me. In fact, I said to the nurse who was broken.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:45

Your new fancy scale is wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

No, I said to her was that it was Ellie. I knew the she was the doctor's wife. I said, Ellie, get off the scale. And she said, I'm not on the scale, that's all you, big boy. And man, I I mean, I say I sit here in this chair, and I can remember the the feeling I had, that's that's not me. Um and the same thing was true with divorce when it crystallized that night. My my first thought was, well, that doesn't work for me, but divorce is not in my nature.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

It is now.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

Yeah, it is. Um it is, and uh it was it was for me the right thing to do now. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:46

Okay, so we have a few more questions, but I think I'm gonna wrap it here for today so we're not like okay over overdoing it. But I thought that was a good, well-rounded combo. What do you think? How do you feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:59

Yeah, it was good. Um I feel like I've been through an intense counseling session.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:05

You know, when one of my friends asked about she listened to the podcast and she loved it and she's she had all these questions and um, you know, she said, How much prep did you do for for that episode? And I was like, I didn't do any prep. And I was like, I just I think what ended up happening, which I think ends up happening in all the podcasts, is that it ends up running like a therapy session. We just have a conversation and like I have an idea of things I want to hit and like where we kind of want to go with it. But um okay, in that case, if it was like a therapy session, do do you enjoy doing therapy with me?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Yes. I I hesitate to use that word because it's probably not a good idea to have your father for a client, but um but but it's but but it's not really counseling or therapy session. It's in the context that we're doing it, it's as you say, just a conversation between two people. Um and and I'm glad you have the the questions because I can I can pin them down the questions as opposed to something else. No, I it it was uh it was it was fun, it went by quickly.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:16

Yeah. So maybe like as we continue, and we'll do another one because we have more questions to answer, but also think about um vice versa. We're sort of like interviewing each other, so you can also come to the table with uh questions you want to ask as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:32

Um nothing too crazy though.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

Another another good question, but I'll see what I can do.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:37

Yeah, you can ask Ian too, bring her on board.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:41

Yeah. All right, great job.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

That was fun, thanks.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:45

Yeah, you're welcome.