Showing Up Whole

The Enneagram as a Path to Wholeness: A conversation with Michelle Joy

• Christina Fletcher / Michelle Joy • Season 5 • Episode 19

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In this episode of Showing Up Whole, we explore the Enneagram as a powerful tool for self-awareness with Family Therapist and certified Enneagram Teacher, Michelle Joy.

If you have ever felt stuck in the same emotional reactions, communication patterns, or inner stories, this conversation offers a compassionate way to understand why, without blame or self-judgment.

The Enneagram is often misunderstood as just another personality test.
In this episode, we unpack why it is actually a living map of growth. Rather than labeling behavior, the Enneagram reveals the deeper motivations beneath our reactions, showing how we learned to seek safety, love, and belonging, and how those strategies can quietly keep us stuck.

You will hear how each Enneagram type carries a “human lens” through which the world is filtered, and why mistaking that lens for absolute truth can limit growth, connection, and inner peace. 

We discuss how awareness of your type creates space between stimulus and response, allowing you to choose differently rather than react automatically.

This episode is for anyone who wants to understand themselves more honestly, relate with greater compassion, and move from survival patterns into wholeness.

Michelle Joy, LMFT, is a licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, certified Enneagram Teacher, and founder/host of The Annual Enneagram Summit for the Helping Profession. She is the creator of The Developmental Enneagram for Couples®, a unique approach that combines the Enneagram with the transformative component of differentiation.  Michelle also leads workshops for couples and professional trainings for coaches and therapists at CouplesAndTheEnneagram.com. She is the author of her forthcoming book The Developmental Enneagram for Couples®, to be released in spring 2026.

You can find her work at CouplesAndTheEnneagram.com

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Let this New Year begin with a deep sense of alignment and freedom from the year before. Check out Christina's workshop

Christina Fletcher is a Spiritual Alignment coach, energy worker, author, speaker and host of the podcast Showing Up Whole.
She specialises in practical spirituality and integrating inner work with outer living, so you can get self development off of the hobby shelf and integrated as a powerful fuel to your life.

Through mindset, spiritual connection, intuitive guidance, manifestation, and mindfulness techniques Christina helps her clients overcome overwhelm and shame to find a place of flow, ease, and deep heart-centered connection.
Christina has been a spiritual alignment coach, healer and spiritually aware parent coach for 7 years and trained in Therapeutic Touch 8 years ago. She is also a meditation teacher and speaker.
For more information please visit her website www.spirituallyawareliving.com

Want to uncover where you need the most energy alignment?
Take her new Energy Alignment Quiz to identify which of your energetic worlds (mind, body, heart or spirit) needs aligning the most!

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Christina:

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Showing Up Hole, the place where we discuss alignment in mind, body, heart, and spirit in every aspect of our lives. And today we are having an exciting conversation with Michelle Joy, who is here to tell us all about the Enogram, which honestly, I will fully admit, I don't know a lot about and I've been wanting to learn. So this is a great opportunity. So here we go. We're gonna have a wonderful conversation with Michelle.

Michelle:

Hi.

Christina:

Hi, Michelle. It's great to have you here. I am gonna share everyone a little bit about you and make sure they know who who you are. So Michelle Joy is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified Enneagram teacher, and founder and host of the annual Enneagram Summit for the Helping Profession. Great news. She is the creator of the developmental Enneagram for Couples, and a you which is a unique approach that combines the Enneagram with the transformate transformative component of differentiation. We have a lot to talk about. Her framework was forged through more than 20 years of specializing in couple work, shared by ruptures, thousands of conversations and breakthroughs. She leads workshops for couples and professional trainings for coaches and therapists at couples and at and theogram.com. And she is the author of the forthcoming book, The Developmental Enneagram for Couples, to be released this coming spring. That's exciting. You're a busy lady. Hi. Yes, yes. It is. Okay, so everybody is sitting here wondering what's the Enneagram?

Michelle:

Yeah, the Enneagram. First of all, I discovered the Enneagram in 1998. So a long time ago. And uh my sister gave me a book and said, here, read read this type. I think this sounds like so and so. And it was me. And I read it. I was like, wow, how can somebody read my soul so clearly that I've never met? And it's in a book. So it was absolutely profound. I um at the time. There's nine, well, let me just say this and I'll describe the Enneagram. So then I started seeing couples, as you just said, I started seeing couples a few years later. And thankfully, I knew the Enneagram at that time. And so the Enneagram has been one of the lenses that I've used to understand relationships through ever since 2002, I think is when I saw my first couple. And I it's been really profound. And I think that anybody who is in a relationship or has it doesn't, I don't mean necessarily romantic, like friends and coworkers and everything. I think we just need to know the Enneagram. Um, so yeah, that's really what I've had.

Christina:

So really it is like a personality, it's not like a personality test. I mean, like you know, things like Meyer Griggs and all of those. I know during lockdown, all those years back, which seemed like a different life ago, everyone was sitting there doing those personality tests and kind of comparing all their different combinations. You know, human design, which I do like use with clients occasionally. I I have very minimal um knowledge about it, but that's just based on like birth date and place and kind of like astrology. So then you also have your astrology. How do you find your Enneagram? Like what is the what's it based on?

Michelle:

Question? Yeah, so let me say, first of all, when you see the symbol, it looks like it's numerology or something like that. And don't let the symbol fool you. The symbol is actually a map of really, I think it's a return back to wholeness. It shows us where we get stuck and how we prevent ourselves from growth. There's nine different types. None of the types are better than others, they're just numbered one through nine and they have different titles. So type one is the reformer, depends on the author. Some authors call the type one the perfectionist. Type two is the helper, type three is the achiever, type four is the individualist, type five is the observer, type six is the loyal skeptic, type seven is the adventurer, type eight is the challenger or the boss, depending on the author. And type nine is the peacemaker. So there's all these different types, and then there's wings and such, which maybe I don't know if we'll get into today, but there's arrows, like the the actual symbol of the Enneagram is a map, like I said, that shows us where we get stuck. I mean, and I use it with couples, so it shows me where couples often get stuck in communication and conflict resolution and how what they need to integrate from some of the other types to grow and to integrate into their own personality. It shows me how we project onto other people. So it's a really great map.

Christina:

Oh, that's so interesting though, because that means that like okay, because if you have human design, you have your design that you were born with. And so therefore, you kind of notice how you would receive energy or how you even by big go as far as like how your eating habits work and stuff, but it's not a question of being able to borrow from others. So with this one, it feels like once you know your natural type, then you start, you can actually start to actually modify certain things in order to be able to actually bring other qualities in. That's actually really fascinating.

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Once we so there's one dominant type, and according to the Enneagram, we're born a type and we die a type. We don't actually change types, but we can grow and expand and evolve within our type. So yeah, we all have a home base. We're gonna resonate with all nine types, but there's there's a home base that we sit in more often than not. And just like you said, once we identify our home base, then we can start to say, okay, this is my personality in this moment. The reason I love the Enneagram so much, and maybe some of these other things do this too, but the Enneagram to me, it shows us like it provides a certain lens that I'm wearing to view the world. And so as I'm talking to you, I'm filtering what you're saying through my lens and feeding it back to you in relationships. This is huge. When somebody, we're observing somebody's behavior, we're filtering it through the lens and we respond for better or for worse. We hear somebody's words, we filter it through this lens, we give interpretations, and it's all through the lens. But if we don't know our type, then we think this is full reality. And it isn't. It's just our personality type, it's just our Enneagram type. So once we understand that it's our personality, we can separate ourselves, like, oh no, that's my type right now. How else can I respond right now? Because our personality type, the habits of our Enneagram type, it's not a bad part of us, but it's misguided. So the things that it tells us to do and the way it interprets certain things, it's such a reflex and a habit, but it's not necessarily the high truth. It's just what our type's telling us. And every type is trying to accomplish something, you know, like I'm type four, for example. And type fours at their core, you know, and there's other types like this too. You know, sometimes we got issues with self-worth. And so when I'm listening to people, sometimes I filter it through my type of, oh, they don't like me, or oh, I said something dumb, or shame on me. You know, fours are quick to go to shame. And I'm like, no, that's my personality type. I'm not deficient, I'm not inadequate. That's what my type tells me. Uh, but I can separate it now and I can catch it. Like, can you imagine if we just walk around through life, which many of us do, immersed in it, and we think this is reality, and it isn't, and it prevents us from growth.

Christina:

Whoa. This is so fascinating because it's it's first of all, and anyone who listens to my podcast knows that I get about five different questions all at once. So let me try this. First off, I'd say the first off, I'd say from a soul perspective, that's fascinating because it's almost like the soul is then the one that puts on the lens. So from a true self version, uh, you put on the lens to experience, but from then a soul journey, it's almost like you've chosen that lens to see things through, but it's important to actually shift back to heart and actually see from a wider view. So this is your type is based in your in your human self. It's like your yes, your your your human self. It it's not from your whole self, it's actually just through the physical, like this.

Michelle:

That's exactly right. Yeah, you nailed it, and I love that so much about the Enneagram too, is that it's psychological and it's spiritual. So the psychological part is what you just said. We see it's when we see things through our human lens about what's going on and we interpret it through our human lens. But right alongside our Enneagram type, also known as our human lens, is our essence or our soul quality. Yeah, but the Enneagram, our Enneagram style covers it up or hijacks it or something. And if we're just seeing something through our Enneagram lens and we're engaging with people and making decisions from it, it prevents us from growth because our essence or soul quality is not involved. So it's helpful to ask, okay, how would God or the universe or my soul see this situation right now aside from this?

Christina:

Right, right. Okay, so then from the flip side of that, then oh wait, have I lost it? I may have lost it. Um, it because it really does it if from the physical, that's where I was gonna go. I mean, a lot of times in like the work that we do, we talk about like healing, we talk about uh different things that we need to clear up from our past, but you mentioned this idea of shame as a type four. So now a lot of people would talk about like low self-worth, would actually, it's like, oh, well, what happened in my childhood and what happened to where do I need to go to actually heal the pieces of me that have brought up those insecurities? So by understanding your type, you actually might save yourself a lot of time by actually hunting around for trauma that might not be there in some ways. Or does it actually run the risk of preventing you from actually doing a healing that needs to be cleared up? If that makes sense.

Michelle:

Can I give you an example of myself?

Christina:

Yeah, if you don't mind, that'd be brilliant.

Michelle:

Okay, type four again. So um, I love the Enneagram, as you know, and there's somebody her name's Susan Ole Sek, and she takes the Enneagram to prisons and she helps the incarcerated. And I was talking to her about her work, and she goes, Why don't you come with me sometime? I'm like, Okay. So I found myself at San Quentin State Prison, Northern California, with sitting in a circle with 40 incarcerated men. And at first I was like, What am I gonna have in common? I've never been in a prison, but all these guys had their name tag with their Enneagram type next to it. And I suddenly felt so much like shared humanity and connection. And the Enneagram was a bridge. Like I was, we we had things in common to talk about and they shared their stories, and it was incredible. They weren't making excuses, they were tying it to their wounds, and I was so inspired. And it was like on my resume of life. Okay. So I left that day and I was telling somebody about it. And that person said, Well, I'm glad you had that experience, but there are much more important experiences to be had than that. And I my through my filter of my type, I heard it as a criticism. And type fours, it goes right in. Like we don't really have a filter, it just is in. And their criticism becomes, I'm bad, shame on me. And I went from highly inspired to plummeted down to shame. Okay. That's my Enneagram type. And I knew so, thankfully, and all of a sudden I didn't feel inspired. I felt shame on me. I did a bad thing because of this interaction with this specific person. So thankfully, I caught it. I'm like, wait a minute, this is my four happening right now, saying, like, agreeing with this person and basically fusing with her opinion and her criticism of me that I did something bad and I'm a bad person for doing it. So I knew it, I was aware of it, I caught it. Okay, this is my fourness. What would I what do I need to do? I need to separate out like what she's saying from my truth. So I'm like, she can be critical, she can think whatever she wants, and I can hold on to my inspiration and I don't need to let that go. She didn't take it from me, I let it go. But that's my type. Because, Christina, this is interesting. When we're children, we decide what parts, what we have to do or be to get love and belonging. Yep. And that's how our type is formed, right? We sh our type is shaped around all of that. So that perfectly fits. It's like, okay, um, to get love and belonging, you know, sometimes we have to agree with somebody. Sometimes we have to get big and strong and fight back. Sometimes we have to withdraw. And this is all part of our Enneagram type habit. But when we're aware of it, we can choose differently. So I thankfully I was aware of it. And I thought she can have her thing. I can feel inspired. And I took it even further. I was like, this woman's my teacher. She's showing me where my stuff is. She's showing me what I need to work on. And what part of me is allowing other people to dictate what is meaningful to me and what isn't. So I was able to, instead of being hijacked in shame and oh, what's this? I was able to take it because I know my type and turn it into something healing and take me toward growth instead of stuckness.

Christina:

That's amazing. That is so phenomenal. Because what I love about that is that it seems like even if we have trauma in our past, and even if we've gotten hurt in our past, then the way we actually absorb that and have that shape us, our type then actually helps dictate that. And then you actually get to use it as a tool, as a way of actually shifting and moving through that. That's exciting.

Michelle:

That's really it's super exciting. It's super exciting. I'm yeah, I think we've been given an enormous gift in this life. This is my opinion. I know there's a lot of tools of the Enneagram that can help us not feel not be trapped because our type will trap us. You know, it's like, oh, in this situation, I need to shrink and become small to get love and belonging and feel value. It's a trap. Yeah. But it's not real, it feels safe, but it's not real love, longing, and and um, loving and value. It's when I stand in my truth. That's when I really feel it.

Christina:

Absolutely. Absolutely. What a valuable thing for couples.

Michelle:

It is, it is. It's helpful for the one of the reasons is it's so versatile. So it's helpful for couples, for individuals who are wanting to grow, for businesses and teams. It's huge in businesses and teams for parents, teachers. Um, it goes on and on. And it's also great for spiritual work as well. Yeah. Because it helps you kind of peel the onion to essence and growth.

Christina:

Absolutely. All right. I'm I'm sure I'm gonna ask the question that is ever on everybody's tongue. How do you figure out what your end is in?

Michelle:

Well, you know, we do we want to shy away from somebody telling you here's your type. And since the Enneagram has got it, came the Enneagram landed in the United States late late 60s, I want to say. And so it's hasn't been around that long, but it's become more and more popular lately. And um, it's so people can kind of run the risk of, oh, you looking at outward behavior, like, oh, you don't like conflict, you must be this type. All types can avoid conflict for a certain reason. It's the motivation that's driving it at the core, not the behavior. So that to say, how can we figure out our type? It's not by observing be somebody's behavior. That's not a way to do it. Um, there's a lot of tests out there, like um Jerry Wagner has a good test that is tried and true. Russ Hudson has a good test on his website that's tried and true. Uh, so I would say start by taking a test online, an assessment. That is to be taken with a grain of salt. Tests are not always accurate. So it's not gonna give like, oh, here's what you are set in stone. No, we then it's like, okay, it's a guide. Let's go read more about it now. So step one is take a test. Step two is to read more about it online or in a book, and then see what we feel. And it's not what we want to be, it's what we are. And oftentimes we hear if you're reading your type and it's the right one, you might feel kind of uncomfortable because it's gonna hold up a mirror to some things that we might not want to admit that we do.

Christina:

Got it. Got it. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back right after this. Does the idea of goal setting and planning a new year make you feel tired before you even started? Like you've done all the vision boards, the planners, the promises to yourself, and somehow the years just blur together anyway. If that's you, there's nothing wrong with you. It's because we were taught to plan with our heads and not our hearts. Pressure-driven goals don't inspire change, they just trigger our nervous system. And when that happens, we cling even harder to the familiar, even when it's not working. Real change only happens when we feel safe, when we slow down, and when we listen to who we actually are beneath the noise. That's why every year women return to my create an intentional new year workshop experience. Because it's not planning, it's a whole body system reset. We gently review the year that's been, release what's ready to go, and consciously carry forward the gold of the year. Intentions come from feeling, not plans or force. So your mind can finally rest instead of policing yet another set of rules. Through reflection, meditation, some energy clearing, and also community, your heart and soul are given the space to make the plans. And you leave with clarity, alignment, and a year that truly feels different. This year, I'm offering two online dates, one January 3rd and the other January 8th, so you can choose which works for you. And afterwards, a replay and beautifully guided workbook will also be sent out to you. Why not let this year be the one that your soul makes the plans? And watch how life begins to meet you there. You can sign up for this workshop over at spirituallyware living.com backslash new year and learn all about it. I look forward to creating your year with you. It's so funny because I know um back in the spring I attended um a Hay House workshop thing. And it was so funny. I was listening to the people who actually like, you know, work high up in Hay House. And they were talking about Enagram, and they literally were talking about how deeply this is embedded even in the Hay House company, that everybody knows their type and how they work, and like uh so it's fascinating to me of of how this actually all kind of ties in and how important it is to actually. I find that really interesting how you said that it can make you uncomfortable to actually know your type. It sounds like your type, it really is based on I want to say your weaknesses, but not necessarily your strength. It doesn't seem like it actually, or does it? Is there a part of your Enneagram that actually suggests, oh, but you're really good at this?

Michelle:

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, okay, absolutely. I'm sorry, I'm a therapist, and so sometimes I when people talk to me, I see kind of the things they need help with rather than talking about strengths.

Christina:

Well, that's what we do, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle:

Yeah, but anyway, yeah, the Enneagram absolutely points to strengths and also areas that we that we tend to struggle with without even knowing it. And then when we don't make progress, we just double down on what we're doing that's actually keeping us stuck, but we don't know what's keeping us stuck. Uh Russ Hudson wrote a book called Wisdom of the Enneagram, which is fantastic. It's a blue book and uh it talks about nine types, and he's got them divided into levels of health. So level he breaks them up into nine levels of health per type. And the reason I'm telling you this is because. When you read about level one, that talks about your essence and your strengths. And when you work through your challenges, like here's your essence, here's who you're meant to be. Most of us sit in average. Okay. Like, probably most people in the world live in average, like levels four, five, and six. But and it talks about how to work your way up to the higher levels of your own type.

Christina:

So, really, I mean, when you say it's a map, it is a map. Because it's actually understanding who you are, how to deal with who you've been, and then actually shifting things to actually become and walk the path of who you actually have wanted to be. And who you want. That's right. Wow, that's that's powerful.

Michelle:

Yeah, and I'll add one more thing in terms of the map. I don't want to complicate things too much. But the symbol, have you seen the symbol?

Christina:

No, I actually don't think I have.

Michelle:

It it looks kind of like a star, but different, but kind of like a star, I guess. Um, but there's lines connected. So type I'm on four. Okay, so there's my type four is connected to type one and to type two. That also is indicative of something. That means sometimes I can draw from the negative side of both of those and display behaviors that are not so good, go backwards. But drawing on the high side of those types is what moves me forward. In particular, those two types, drawing on those sides will move me forward in growth. And I absolutely use those. I use that in the San Quentin example. I pulled from the high side of type one, which they're so objective and they're so like logical, and you know, don't get swept away by the emotion of the moment. Like zoom out. What's really going on here? Um and then the high side of two is like, let me put myself in her shoes. Where's she coming from? Okay, it has nothing to do with me. You know, so I did that consciously to help me. Okay. Now navigate that differently.

Christina:

I have to ask though, within that working with the couples, do you find that often? How do I phrase this? Do you find that often that people partner with the um the types that they are linked to or the types that they also are? Like, is there a theme in that?

Michelle:

That's an interesting question. I haven't noticed that in particular. Um, I haven't noticed that. I'm gonna have to start paying attention to that.

Christina:

Because that would be so fascinating if we're attracted to people who are actually either can help us move forward or, and that's why sometimes you get discord. But I guess no matter what, whoever you're dealing with, then knowing that is going to actually draw that.

Michelle:

Exactly. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Like regardless of their types, and I I try to figure out every I try to help people identify their types. Most people don't know the Enneagram when I meet with them. But yes, almost always there's some type of poll in the relationship for growth.

Christina:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Uh that's trying that's trying to happen regardless of type. Yeah.

Christina:

Yeah. Well, it's so fascinating because I think in every couple, you can either bring out the best in each other, or the if on bad days, you can bring out the worst. That's right. You know, so it's it's and also, or on bad days, you might actually, you know, just say the wrong thing that rubs the person the wrong way. So therefore, knowing what those types actually balance out between each other, that's fascinating. Wow.

Michelle:

It is. And then just in relationships, you know, if both people know their types and they both are aware of it and they do the work, I think through and with each other in relationship, we come back to wholeness. You know, that's that's really a part of what a relationship is, and that's why it can be so challenging. But there's a certain way to to look at it and be curious rather than stuck in the you know, in the muck.

Christina:

Yeah, absolutely. So if out of curiosity, when you sit down with a couple, you know, do you find that how do you find that this is received? How do you find that that that they a lot of times people are like, oh my goodness, I don't know how this works, or do you find that it's like a light bulb moment?

Michelle:

Most people absolutely love it. Like most people love learning about themselves and about their partner. And for most people, it's like a light bulb moment of like, wow, this is why you do what you do. And I think it brings a lot of acceptance too, like, oh, this is how you're wired. But it doesn't mean sometimes people make excuses like, oh, well, yeah, I'm really critical of you because I'm this type, you know. And no, that's just showing like when we when we identify our type, then it's the beginning of growth rather than take me, take it or leave it. Here's how I am. Like it points out what we need to work on. So let me think you asked me a good question. Um, I don't want to get sidetracked.

Christina:

Don't worry. No.

Michelle:

Oh, how couples receive it. Yeah. And then the other one is um, sometimes people go, yeah, there's a lot of these, you know, I work at so-and-so corporation, and there's a lot of these tests we have to take. And I'm like, wait a minute, this is different. This is not like those tests. Like, I even see it above Myers Briggs in terms of its insight and its power that's able to bring. It's also based in neuroscience. There's a lot of research out there. Dr. Um Dan Siegel, he's a neurobiologist and a psychiatrist, and he's written a book now on the any the neurobiology of the Enneagram. Uh, and also Dr. David Daniels, he's the late um, he was a psychiatrist at Stanford. He did so much great work on the neuroscience. So I tell this to couples who are more scientifically based. Yes. Yeah, absolutely to ground it.

Christina:

But I think that's such a good uh distinction to make that you have something like the Myers Briggs, which I mean, I sat around the dinner table once during during lockdown when everyone was talking about it on like Instagram or whatever, and everyone was saying what type there were on Facebook. And you know, my whole family, we sat and did Myers Briggs, and it was a hoot, it was fun. I noticed that everybody all all agreed that they liked alone time more than being with everyone, and I kind of went, right, I'm not gonna organize as many family events, but it was kind of it was it was information, but it's not a lens. It it's not you you just kind of go, well, that's information. Now I understand who you are, I understand your preferences, that's fine. Human design seems more like your it's just your design, so it is more a little bit like you know, like in human design, I'm a projector, which means that I do actually get energy and kind of rejuvenate through talking to people and working with people and reflecting energy back. And that's what makes me good at my job, you know. So there's there's but it's more focused on you know, um, like how you need to refuel and things like that. It gives you more of an actual design. Whereas this feels like this is a deeper understanding of actually, like you said, a lens. It's like, well, yeah, do you want that lens? Do you want to see through your type right now? Or do you want, oh, is that making you feel off? Now pull from a different your strength and where you can where you can pull from.

Michelle:

Exactly right. You know, but some people do treat it like Myers Briggs, like, oh, that's funny, that's interesting. Okay, moving on. And that's really it's kind of it's like it's like holding a map at a trailhead of a hike, but then not actually going on the on the walk. You're just looking at the map.

Christina:

Got it.

Michelle:

So I think we're missing out on a lot if we don't integrate it a lot more than that.

Christina:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tell me about your book. I want to hear about your book.

Michelle:

Um, so the book blends the Enneagram with something called differentiation. Yeah, oh yeah, that's it.

Christina:

And different, yeah, go for it. I heard that word in your bio. I was like, what'd you talk about? Okay, yeah.

Michelle:

Yeah, I'll talk about differentiation first from a psychological and then spiritual, because to me it's both. And the Enneagram is also psychological and it's spiritual too. It's both. And I like that because we are both. We're psychological, we're human, and we're also spiritual. Um, so differentiation is basically the capacity to understand where somebody's coming from to hear their truth without getting defensive, without shutting down, especially if it has to do with us. It's like, yeah, I'm the subject matter, but this is you're telling me about your inner world and how my behavior impacts you. So let me make space for it. Uh so it's making room for another person's truth while staying connected to them. So again, it's not getting defensive, it's not caving in to keep peace. So that's part of differentiation, but it's also saying what our truth is, too. You know, here's where I live inside, here's my truth, and I can also hear yours. And I don't have to argue that I'm right and you're wrong, and I don't have to cave in to keep peace. So that's what differentiation is.

Christina:

So it's sort of like um, it sounds slightly like the basis of nonviolent communication, where it's actually based on I'm not yeah, it's like needs based, but you have to keep open and curious so that you can actually understand the other person's need, but it's it's keeping open and curious about the other person.

Michelle:

That's right. It is, yeah. And this is based in neuroscience too, which I won't go into, but it's it's grounded. And um it that's what I did during that San Quentin example, you know. She told me her opinion. I had mine, I let it go and fused with her instead of holding two truths and letting her have hers. And it's spiritual because we're staying in touch with who we are at our soul level and our own authenticity. We're not letting go, you know, and we're not demanding we're right, we're trying to see another person. It's really uniting, it's bringing together.

Christina:

That's so important right now. My goodness. Yeah. And it there's an element of empathy in there as well, which means that then we're we're holding space for others, which right now. That's that's a really deep gift. So, therefore, then you're combining that for within your book. And it's then this is also what you do in all your programs.

Michelle:

Yeah, that's what I do of combining the Enneagram with this concept of differentiation, which I also was introduced to in 2002. So, since then, I mean, to me, the Enneagram shows us our stuff and where we're stuck, and then differentiation is what helps us move forward because sometimes just awareness alone isn't enough. Like, okay, I know my type's happening right now, but what do I do about it? And then differentiation helps us understand what to do about it. Got it. So that's why I put them together.

Christina:

Beautiful, beautiful. So in the book, will people get a chance to understand more about their own type or should they know their type before they read your book?

Michelle:

They should know their type before they read the book.

Christina:

Okay.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Christina:

All right.

Michelle:

And again, there's different tests to take. Russ Hudson's book, The Wisdom of the Enneagram, is good. Uh, you can always look online as well. There's a lot of information out there to learn about their type too. There's certain Enneagram teachers that will interview you to figure out your type as well. And I do that.

Christina:

I was just gonna say, and are you one of those?

Michelle:

Yes, they do.

Christina:

Okay. So really, people could just come to you, get the information of their Enneagram, and then then read your book, or just work one on one. Okay. So where do they find out about all of these things? Is this important?

Michelle:

Uh, my website is couplesandheagram.com.

Christina:

Okay.

Michelle:

So everything is there. Yeah.

Christina:

And we will throw that into show notes and then they can take part. You also do summits. So when is your next annual summit, or do you know yet?

Michelle:

Yeah, I did a life purpose summit, which you were on and contributed something so wonderful to. Yeah. Um, oh, it was that was such a good summit. Oh my gosh. Um, but uh yeah, the the one you're talking about now, the Enneagram for the Helping Profession, is in May of 2026. And that's on the website as well.

Christina:

Okay. All right. So really everyone go to the website. Everyone go to the website and then yeah, that's right. And uh yeah, you know these are the types of things that I actually just am really curious. Like if people do this and then they find out their type, we should start a post or something that everyone can start sharing their type because it's fascinating to really actually get to know that um a deeper version of people. We should be sharing this.

Michelle:

Oh, I love it. Oh, I know. And then I'm actually starting a group in February, um, uh where people can join. It's online, it's a couples group, or peep people who are not in a relationship can join too, but it's about an your Enneagram type and relationships. So that's on the website too.

Christina:

That's exciting. That's important.

Michelle:

Yeah, so we can all talk to each other about our type and what's going on and what works, what doesn't.

Christina:

I find that we're bombarded with so much information nowadays. There's so many things, and you know, I was even talking about it in a program that I run. You know, we were all talking about our saved files on our Instagram of like all the things. Oh, we should look at that. I should look at that. But these are the type of things that when we actually dive deeper into them, we actually get to know some it's so practical. You know, the the it's an actual map that's so unbelievably practical to living day-to-day life, which is really what we need.

Michelle:

Yes.

Christina:

So that's what they said. All right, everybody go check out Michelle's website. We will make sure we should have you back on. This has been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for coming on the show and finally demystifying this for me because I've been so confused.

Michelle:

Oh, good. Well, thanks for having me, Christina. It's an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much.

Christina:

Bye.