Master the Art of Interviewing: Building Rapport in High Stakes Conversations with Mark Anderson #96

SHOW NOTES:
Are your interviews, negotiations and client conversations not yielding the results you expect? The problem might not be what you're asking, but how you're asking it. Explore the nuances of effective interviewing and negotiation strategies with Mark Anderson, an expert in investigative techniques and behavioral science, in this enlightening episode of the Dealing with Goliath podcast.

In this discussion, Mark sheds light on the transition from traditional to evidence-based, psychologically sound interviewing methods. He explores the pivotal role of rapport and authenticity in communication, offering practical tips on asking the right questions and building genuine connections. Whether you're looking to refine your professional interactions or enhance your investigative skills, this episode is packed with insights that can transform your approach.

GUEST BIO:

Mark Anderson is the Director of Training and Development with Anderson Investigative Associates. He is a career interviewer in the audit and investigation arena who believes interviewing is a skill at the foundation of our best and most complete work.

He is a retired Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General (DOJ/OIG), and also served as a Special Agent with the FBI, the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and as a Deputy Inspector General with the New York State Office of the Inspector General. Before retiring he instructed interviewing in the Behavioral Science Division at FLETC.

His focus in training is the need for rapport and establishing commonality with those who we interview. This is done with the goal of maximizing the quality and quantity of information that we obtain. He instructs in the areas of interviewing, interrogation, employee misconduct, ethics, investigation planning, public corruption, and other requested areas of investigation, audit, evaluation, human resources, compliance, and inspection work.

TOPICS EXPLORED:
- Foundational Interviewing Skills: The critical importance of rapport and commonality in extracting quality information during interviews.

- Modernizing Interview Techniques: Shifting from outdated, confrontational methods to evidence-based, psychologically sound practices.

- Stress and Its Impact: How stress influences fallback to outdated techniques during high-stakes interviews and negotiations.

- Rapport Building and Its Pitfalls: Effective strategies for establishing genuine connections and the common errors that break them.

- Authentic Communication: The significance of authenticity and self-knowledge in building trust and credibility.

- Asking the Right Questions: Moving away from yes/no questions to open-ended questions that elicit comprehensive responses.

- Continuous Learning and Integrity: Mark’s approach to constantly updating his methods and materials to stay credible and effective.

- Manipulation vs. Influence: Exploring the ethical boundaries in professional interactions, focusing on intent and outcomes.

- Self-Knowledge as a Tool: The power of deep self-awareness in maintaining integrity and managing challenging interactions effectively.

RESOURCES:
Mark's Website www.andersoninvestigative.com

Over 100 insightful articles on interviewing & having better conversations: https://andersoninvestigative.com/blog/

CONNECT WITH MARK ANDERSON:
 On LinkedIn:

If you're interested in more visit ▶ https://almcbride.com/minicourse
for a free email minicourse on how to gain the psychological edge in your negotiations and critical conversations along with a helpful negotiation prep cheat sheet.

If you enjoyed this episode of Dealing with Goliath Podcast, hit subscribe to hear about our latest episodes.

Transcript

Al McBride  0:00  
Oh. Welcome to the dealing with Goliath podcast. The mission of dealing with Goliath is to sharpen the psychological edge of negotiation, ethical influencing and high impact conversations for business leaders who want to be more effective under pressure and cover hidden value and build greater connection and business relationships, all while increasing profitability. This is the short form espresso shot of insight podcast interview to boost business performance using our five questions in around about 15 to 20 minutes format, but we reserve the right to go over my guest today is Mark Anderson. Mark is the Director of Training and Development with Anderson investigative associates. He is a career interviewer in the audit and investigation arena who believes interviewing is a skill at the foundation of our best and most complete work. He's a retired Special Agent with the US Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General as the DOJ OIG, and also served as a Special Special Agent with the FBI, the US nuclear regulatory commission, and as a Deputy Inspector General with the New York State Office of the Inspector General. Before retiring, he instructed interviewing in the behavioral science division at FLETC, his focus and training is the need for rapport and establishing commonality with those who we interview. This is done with the goal of maximizing the quality and quantity of information that we obtain. He instructs in the areas of interviewing, interrogation, employee misconduct, ethics, investigation, planning, public corruption and other requested areas of investigation, audit evaluation, human resource, compliance and inspection work, remarkable stuff. Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Anderson  1:56  
Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Well, it's

Al McBride  1:59  
fantastic to have you here. That was quite a mouthful. I mean, it's an it's an it's a very impressive resume. They're very impressive experiences, skill set and knowledge. So I'm looking forward to diving in there. So let's just set the scene for a listener. So who's your ideal client and what's the biggest challenge they tend to face?

Mark Anderson  2:18  
My ideal client is anyone or any organization where they're having difficulties eliciting, getting all the information they need out of some of these interactions. So it's any organization where they see that there's weaknesses in those communication skills that you speak about in the negotiation arena, and that I speak about in the interviewing arena. So they will bring me in in order to try to bolster those skills and and maybe get rid of some legacy type behaviors that aren't founded in evidence based practices. And that's kind of where I had at this point is, let's get rid of some of that old stuff that doesn't work and replace it with stuff that we know is psychologically sound. So that would be my ideal client.

Al McBride  3:11  
And just to dive a little bit deeper in there, because some people might be like, oh, you know what? What exactly might be some typical examples of old school or old sky style thinking rather than, as you said, the more scientifically backed or research backed approaches

Mark Anderson  3:28  
there. There are a bunch of them. I think some of them is the way that we ask questions, and I know you talk about how we ask questions, and a lot of those old techniques are passed down where they're yes, no questions, they're antagonistic in the way they're delivered. There's all sorts of things in the question arena where we've already handicapped ourself at getting the information because of the way we asked the question. And we don't want to do that. We want to ask questions in a way to maximize that. So that would be one the concept of rapport. What really is rapport? And how do I really develop rapport? I mean, I can come in and, you know, we started our conversation today talking a little about the Super Bowl, which is time relevant. But do I really get to know much about you in that conversation? I might know get to know a little bit, but I need to drill down. I need to pull away the layers of the onion to get to who you are. And I don't think that was taught that way back in time. So we've adopted this sort of, Okay, I'll go in and do rapport. I'm going to ask about the weather, and I'll ask about their favorite sports team, and then we'll get down to business. Well, I really haven't done anything to create a relationship, to build trust, and so we emphasize that when we talk. So I mean, that's two I could go on enough somebody's legacy practices are and then get into the research of why we know this stuff works better, too.

Al McBride  4:58  
Okay, that's very. Interesting, because the follow up question, which you've kind of answered in one direction, I think there's more there there. But what are the common mistakes people make when trying to solve that problem? So when they know some of their practices might be outdated, or, as you said, they just have that strong impression on their right that there's a better way. What are some of those common mistakes they make first before they find you.

Mark Anderson  5:25  
I think what we see all the time when I look at, you know, performance and things like that, is that when things and much like in a new negotiation in the interview realm, stress level can go up significantly when you're in that interaction. And when that stress level goes up, our Fallback is to that which we've always done. So we fall back into that legacy practice and then sometimes even make it worse because of the stress effect on us, the cognitive load that's on us, and the interview or the negotiation, whatever it is, is going to devolve, and you're not going to have the quality, you know, response. So the thing that we see is that inability to, you know, even if they want to adapt some of these new practices and they try adopting them in that stress environment, they fall back to what they learned before. I remember, when I first went through the FBI Academy, the firearms instructor said he would rather have somebody that's never shot a gun to train than somebody that has shot a gun, because in that person, I have to break the old habits before I build the new habits in the person who hasn't I just build you from the ground up. So, you know, the one is getting people, number one to recognize it, which is a huge struggle, because, you know, at least in the government, here in the States, the answer is, well, that's the way we've always done it. There's not a term I hate more than that's the way we've always done it, you know. So, you know, it's hard to get people to pull away from those legacy type things, because that's the way we've always done it. So the first step is get them to recognize that need. Second step is to provide training. And a lot of this stuff can be trained in a relatively short period of time. You know, even listening to you the other day on that webinar, some of the stuff you were going through, that stuff with the right training and the right input and the right coaching, can be instructed in a short period of time and then fine tune over the long course. And I say that all the time with regard to the stuff I teach on questioning, I say you do this for 30 days, and you're going to see an improvement, and then we can take the next year to fine tune that and but once you see that improvement, I've sold you on this product, and you're going to go ahead and keep doing it that way. So that was a long answer to a short question. I probably don't even remember what the question was anymore. I apologize.

Al McBride  8:03  
So what would be one valuable free action that the audience can implement, that will that will set them in the right direction? So as you said, they might not be doing either of our courses, but even just a perspective change. Are there a few key principles you'd give for people?

Mark Anderson  8:21  
Yeah, the key principles is, would be to find out a little bit more about this issue. Number one, the one that I focus on an awful lot is this concept of rapport. Because based in that concept of rapport is the concept of which you talked about a little bit the other day and wrote notes to myself, the concept of reciprocity, the concept of, you know, building that relationship with rapport, the concept of trust, building which is related to rapport. So understand that, and then build off of that would be a way to do it. So look into that stuff. Number one, don't be in a silo, and I'm sure you have some clients that are relatively young, and then you have some that might have more tire tracks on them. And I can say that now, because look at me, that's when you're going through my bio, all I'm thinking is that says two things. Number one, he can't hold a job, and number two, he's old, so so you've got some clients that are older, possibly Don't be in a silo. Don't sit there in a silo and think your way is the only way to do it, broad, near horizons, I regard it, and I'm in a huge reawakening on that now. I'm rewriting a lot of my curriculum. I'm rewriting a lot of stuff based on recent research that I've read, why keep teaching doing it the wrong way when there's a better way to do it? So just open yourself up to other things,

Al McBride  9:49  
just to double down there. That's quite fascinating, that you're actually redoing a lot of your previous material. Can you let us in on Is there a particular uh. Perspective that's made you change, or was there a particular series of studies that made you change your mind on something? Or was it very niche?

Mark Anderson  10:08  
It's it's a particular it's a lot of number one, it's hard to stay up on all the stuff, right? So

number two, I'll throw myself under the bus. I got used to doing it the way I was doing it, so I didn't change it. And then I looked at where I was and where I should be, and realized that too much time had gone by, and there's a lot of contributing factors there, but that's a story for another Odyssey or something. But I started looking at over the last several months and said, this not this is not sufficient anymore. Number one, one of the main things I teach is this issue of integrity and credibility. And when I started looking at that, I had to start questioning my own integrity and credibility. And so I just started tearing everything apart. And it does come from a series of studies. It comes from some recent research. It comes from studying some things, reading more in the area of the Innocence Project, you know, where people have been convicted of crimes that they haven't committed, and looking at what led to some of those. And I realized that I need to fine tune. You know, I'm not way off base, because I've always taught a non confrontational, core based style of interviewing, but there's some things that I was teaching that I don't think are the best way to get the most information. So I'm retooling all that stuff, and I'm talking 4050, presentations. I've pulled blogs off that I have written and thrown them away and are rewriting them. So, you know, I think we have to be consistent and credible in what we do. You're

Al McBride  11:54  
really walking the walk and talk, not just talking the talk. And that one absolutely because, as you said, it's an awful lot of hassle, and it's very brave to put your hand up and say, I'm still learning. We're all still learning, you know, we're continually evolving. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, just to move the the interviewing, because we were talking about this just before we hit record there that an awful lot of my clients, you know, the day or the Davids in the David and Goliath struggle, or the challenge, and often they're the ones that are getting to put a to put your term on it, literally interrogated at times. So can you give any particular advice? Because it is slightly the other side of the table. How? How do you build rapport when you're in that weaker position, when you are being questioned often, as you rightly say, that they're actually questioning I do you have the cred, the credibility and integrity that you seem to or that you project an awful lot of the time? That's what they're they're trying to find out, as you said, Are you consistent? Can you give any further thoughts or perspectives on that?

Mark Anderson  13:07  
Yeah, I can. And I actually thought, like you said, we kind of discussed this a little bit, and I thought about it more because I was on a podcast a couple weeks ago. There was two of us on this guest. It's a guy that I know is my wife always said to me, you have a lot of internet friends. You don't have many real friends, which is probably true in today's decade. I was on with him, and he's a guy I really respect, and and I answered the question, and then he said, let me add to that. And this what he added, and this what I'd say first, for what you're asking is, number one, know yourself. There's so little introspection of who we are, and that's why I try to be very candid with that. I try to be authentic with that. We got to know who we are, because if we don't know who we are when we sit in that room, things can be said to us, things can be done to us that cause us to respond in a way that's not productive for the negotiation. So if we know who we are, those things that are said don't necessarily have the same impact on us. And I just look back over my career, when I started this, you know, doing interviews and all the rest, I was thrown off much more so back then than I am now, because I know who I am and I know how I'm going to respond. So related to that is you have to have a have a certain ethic, and something that I heard you say over and over again the other day in that webinar, is you have to have that integrity and credibility to respond in a way. I understand you're trying to get business, but you still have to respond in a way where you don't give that up, because if you give that up in that arena, it's going to have impact in other arenas. Now. The road, so know who you are and respond appropriately. Because of that. Is that helpful?

Al McBride  15:07  
Absolutely, is. Yeah, no, that's fantastic. Because, as you said, we were likening some of these, not maybe interrogation is too strong, but certainly these, some of these more robust discussions to dating, which is a very good metaphor, and not one that a lot of people might, uh think of immediately, but there's a lot of credibility there where one party is sort of saying, Okay, you're saying all of this well, and I want to believe you that's even giving the benefit out. But are you the real deal? Are you credible? Are you going to do what you say you're going to do? So yeah, it's very much this idea of incrementally building trust. And as you the old, very old phrase my grandfather would have used, which is, you know, your word is your bond. As I said, they can take everything from you, but that's your integrity is something that you only build and give away yourself.

Mark Anderson  16:06  
Yeah, I often say that's the only thing I'll go to my grave with. If you so, I better keep it, you know, otherwise I'll have nothing with me. And think about it too. It's hard to build. It's very easy to lose

Al McBride  16:22  
Exactly. It's the same with trust, isn't it? That's kind of, yeah. The integrity shared, if you will, is what trust is. And as you said, it takes time to build it. You know, one person say they're going to do something, and it is as they say, and the other side balance up in some fashion. And it builds sometimes quite quickly, but it builds incrementally. But as you said, that can be destroyed extremely quickly compared to how slow it is to build. I love that idea of knowing thyself as the anchor as almost, what would you say a port and a storm as kind of something to hold fast, to even within the stress is that something that you were trained in, also in all of the or you did trainings in how to manage stressful situations, conversations,

Mark Anderson  17:17  
I do do training in it. Now, I wasn't trained in that. A lot of the stuff I learned was by what making mistakes and figuring out this isn't the way to do it, which is, which is not the good way to have this happen. And that's what happens when you have, like, some of these legacy based type training that that aren't really psychologically sound. You get out there in the field and it's like, hey, this doesn't really work. Now, what do I do? So you make a lot of mistakes, and then you you tend to figure out how to get around that. I think the other thing I saw throughout my career was this silo effect I talk about, where everybody's kind of kind of like a little island unto themselves and and that is not an effective model for dealing with the stress or the situation that we're talking about. And I believe you talked about in your in the webinar the other day, I think you called it red teaming, you know, this, this approach of actually interacting with other people, you know, and I have a hard time getting you got a lot of I would assume this might be true in your business too. You got a lot of type A alpha personalities that all do it the best. You know, there was a day I thought I did it the best. I don't go into an interview now unless I've sat down with two or three other people and say, Hey, this is where I'm thinking about going. What do you think? You know, I don't take a secondary to an interview who's a mini me. I don't need a mini me. I can do me. I want somebody who's not like me, because, in case, it doesn't work out for me, I have this other person there who is not me. So I talk about all the time having a support network around you. That's a much easier way to know who you are, too to internalize who you are. If you have people that you're accountable to, people that you can trust, you want to surround those people around you so that in those weekend moments, you've got that person to gird you up and move you ahead. So I talk about that all the time because I'm trying to overcome that stigma of, oh, I got to do it, do it myself, which we don't have to do it ourselves Exactly.

Al McBride  19:24  
We're not islands Exactly. And there's, there's a wealth of different perspectives that can enhance your own, usually around you, if you have a halfway decent team, absolutely, just to return to something that I saw you said on a few other interviews, and just to bring it out, because I think it's really practical awareness. You said, not just more questions, ensure to ask better questions. So the first question in there, how would you define better questions to for our audience, and so that they can start thinking in this way and applying that? So. Yes, okay, all right,

Mark Anderson  20:03  
yeah, that's good. The best interview isn't the interview with the most questions, it's the interview with the best questions. Because I've done plenty of interviews where I ask the most questions, and somewhere in there you're going to ask a bad question that's going to totally divert from the topic you're trying to accomplish. So you're trying to do this negotiation and get this deal, you ask this silly question that you haven't really thought out, and the whole conversation goes amok. And I've done that in interviews all the time, so I don't want to ask those. The first things I'd say to get away from is, yes, no questions. And the example I use all the time is, if you have children and you ask the question, do you have homework tonight? That's the dumbest question on the face of the earth, because they're conditioned to respond, no. They've got their answer worked up before you ask it. So don't ask that. I used to pick my youngest son up at school when he was in middle school, and he was a little bit of a terror, so I always had different ways to ask question, how many subjects do you have homework in tonight? From easiest to hardest? What are your assignments? What teacher gave you the most work tonight? All of those questions require him to produce an answer, to construct an answer, and within that answer is where you get your information. So I want to stay away from yes no questions, unless I'm confirming, like, if you and I reach an agreement, and then at some point I might say Al. I just want to make sure you know you said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is that right? And then you would say yes or no, and I have that confirmatory answer other than that. I want to ask open ended questions. I want to ask them to tell a story, because there's many things that happen there. Number one, they have to construct the story, sorry, so the validity of it, you're going to be able to determine the validity of that story. Number two, in them constructing their story, and you listening, assuming that you're listening well, which is another thing we don't do well, so focus on being better listeners. We've given two of these and one of these that's ears and mouths. For a reason, use them appropriately. So I want to listen to the answer, and then when you finish answering that open ended question, I'm going to play back some of that to you. I'm going to say now. Al, that's really interesting. You said blah, blah, blah that that's fascinating to me, tell me a little more about that. There's several things that accomplishes. Number one, that builds rapport. Number two, it builds trust. Because how many people that are listening to this have somebody in their lives that you tell them something significant, they haven't heard a word that you said because they're thinking about what they're going to say next? So you're overcoming some of these stigmas. By asking those good questions and and processing the answers, we're getting more information by asking those open ended questions, excellent stuff. That was a long answer, that

Al McBride  22:51  
was a very good answer. What was the question? The question was on better questions. And I think he answered that quite well, yeah. But I love just to pick up on a few points there, because there was a lot in there. But what is, you know, only asking the yes no for confirmation and clarity, but generally having people expand into, as he said, actually having to construct some form of story. That's a very interesting reply that I haven't really thought of it like that before, but I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on. Is that also to notice consistency in how they're describing the story as well? Is there an element there as a follow up?

Mark Anderson  23:33  
Yeah, yeah. I was trying to stay away from that because that's kind of the interviewing side, not the negotiation side, but it could be, because don't we all run into people that aren't truthful in all sorts of areas of our lives. You know, it's not just the person that sits across the table from me. It's the salesman at the car dealership, it's the insurance agent. Sometimes it's people in the medical profession I want to be able to assess because credibility is important to me. I want to be able to assess the credibility of who I'm talking to. So asking open ended questions are is a great way as of assessing credibility, because you and I are going to talk first and develop some rapport and have some interaction where I'm looking at how does al behave when we're having this discussion, and then we get into something a little more tense, such as that negotiation, or such as the subject of my interview, and I want to see if you continue to behave that same way. You know, there's a lot of people that talk about body language and everything like that. That's one of the huge areas that I've changed because I was taught in that realm, and it's totally inaccurate, totally inaccurate. If you want to detect deception, you detect deception and what people say and how people say it. So we have to be really good listeners. So my questioning is to how. Help me assess that as well, right?

Al McBride  25:02  
And as you said, you're kind of getting a baseline to compare it to, but it's interesting that you were getting a baseline nearly from the tone of how they interact, as much as anything else, as the actual words that they're using. Very, very interesting, yeah. But as you said, I think that is huge for a negotiator, particularly for noticing the classic reading between the lines, because an awful lot of times there are demands coming at my typical clients, and you can it's when you're able to really listen, as you say, and trying to get that story and asking those deeper questions, to get that narrative construct of what they're talking about. That's often when they'll just about trust you enough to tell you the real reason why they need some of these things. Because sometimes it's, it's, it's something arbitrary, like they promised the CEO they'd have something delivered by such a date, which is why they're driving you crazy hard at this really unreal. One client in particular had this crazy, unrealistic deadline, but then they discovered, having found that out, because he was listening closely and asking good questions, that in actual fact, he could deliver something that fit the need to make the CEO happy, but maybe not the whole thing, and they could do that chunk very well. So as you said, it's going deeper. It's finding the need behind the story, and as he said, where they're coming from. And it was a real fear. He didn't want to lose face. He didn't want to lose esteem in the eyes of the CEO. So you know, that was what it was at stake for him. So it was a very valid concern. But reading it just on on on the top line, he seemed highly unreasonable and illogical. You know,

Mark Anderson  26:46  
that's an excellent, excellent illustration, and that's not unlike what I deal with all the time. What's the real reason behind the behavior? It's not what they necessarily say at first. So whoever that negotiator was was smart enough to listen and get to those deeper things. I asked very unanticipated and unexpected questions in an interview, much like a negotiation, the people that come to the table have practiced. I'm not foolish enough to think when I sit down to interview somebody who's a subject, in the case, he hasn't thought about what he's going to say to me, he's got his whole stick worked out because he and he's probably practiced it on other people. So the issue becomes, if I ask the questions he expects me to ask, his confidence goes up because I'm playing into his playbook, and consequently I get answers don't help me. My confidence goes down. So in that interview, I always ask unanticipated questions that then makes him say, where did that come from? And it takes him off of his game. His confidence goes down. My confidence goes up. So I want to be cognizant of that interplay. And if you hear something that the answer is just like, that's not the whole story. There's more to it, which that negotiator picked up on. Then ask that follow up question, Hey, man, what's really going on here today? There's something, you know, there's some something miss here. I want to meet you where you're at. I want to be, be everything. I need to be to you, but I don't feel like I'm getting the whole story. What's going on. Help me out with that, you know, but you have to earn the right to ask that question. And I think you, I think you listened to that one podcast I did with on that. I don't know, the one podcast where we talked about earning the right task questions. We have to earn the right to get into those certain rooms in people's houses, you know, to get past the entryway and get into the living room or get into the kitchen where family meets. You know, we have to earn that right, and we have to build that through trust and rapport. Yeah,

Al McBride  28:57  
absolutely. I mean, the one word I was thinking there was respect. The only way you get respect is by giving respect and by demonstrating respectful behaviors towards someone, as you say, that way, then, okay, so you're not out to get me. You have some level of fairness. You have some level of being open to what I have to say, right? And it's that, as you said, That's how for me, anyway, you tend to earn that, that right to move through the rooms gradually or quickly sometimes, but, yeah, respect. And on that note, you know, this was something that count comes up quite a lot more. So maybe in the sales kind of end of negotiation, but it's also there, but very much it's come up in some of the research I was looking into with your good self, which was this question of that dividing line between manipulation and persuasion, or being manipulative versus persuasive, and how would you define the difference? Is it merely intent, or is there something else? Going on there.

Mark Anderson  30:02  
I think, I think a lot of times it's intent, it's where you're coming from. And this, again, goes back to that issue of knowing yourself, so that you're not confused on that. I used to say that to my wife all the time, well, these just a persuasion tactic. And she said, No, that's manipulation. I said, No. And I've actually moved away from the persuasion to influence is really the term we want to use, because even persuasion has some negative connotations to it, because it is all about intent. It's about what are we trying to let's be honest about what we're trying to accomplish here today, I'm trying to sell you something you might want it, but you don't want to pay me what I want for it. You know, we got this situation here. Same thing in the interview realm, you know, I'm here to get the truth. You don't want to give me the truth, because it's going to result in consequences to you, you know. So there's this. So how do I influence you? Well, let's be honest about what are I'm not going to say something to you like, well, if you tell me what you did, you won't ever have to go to jail. You know, I can't do that. You can't make that but you can say things about how they will feel. You can say things about, let's put this behind us and move on. These are, these are real things, and a lot of times they're based on things that have happened in our own lives. So I want to influence you in a particular direction. I don't want to manipulate you persuade. I don't have a real problem with it. Just seems like other people have a problem with it, you know? So, so I think that the manipulation is doing it without concern for that other person. It's to accomplish what I want. And if you think about that, you've you've lost that integrity and credibility, if that's your approach to this. And again, you might get away with it in this sales, in this sale, but you probably aren't going to get away with it down the road. I saw individuals who were investigators do it, and people stop talking to them. And for a matter of fact, if I work with you and I see that's how you are, I'm not working with you anymore, because I have to be concerned about my own well built being and my reputation, so that just damage is bad. So don't do that. Absolutely,

Al McBride  32:17  
absolutely. It's a few, quite a few great things to pick up on, but one of them, not least, was how people delude themselves that they're not manipulating or influencing people all the time. So I mean, people even pay for the service. It's called coaching consultancy, particularly if you have a personal trainer, you are literally paying for someone to manipulate you, to manipulate you, to do things that in the moment you do not feel like doing, but your best self does, right? You know me, that's exactly the point of these sort of accountability type roles, whether it's in coaching or business or fitness or whatever does huge amount of that. But as you said, we do it to our loved ones all the time.

Mark Anderson  33:09  
Yeah, we do because we, we have, we have an infinite capacity for self rationalization, of course, you know, we rationalize everything that we do like it's okay, you know? And again, if you're honest and introspective, you got to step back and say, Wait a minute. This is not okay. This is about manipulating. This is not about influencing. This is about getting what I want. This is not about helping the common good. We got to make those differences. And I think some people are unable to do that or have no interest in doing it at today's day and age, but I think most people do because there's a certain joy and satisfaction that comes with that. Very

Al McBride  33:54  
much, very much. Again, coming back to integrity, and as you said, intent, it's it's something I always learnt as a foundational principle in any sort of counseling and coaching which is ascribed positive intent. So even if the person is shouting threats at you, that you can say, Okay, why are they shouting threats? And even go that deeper level too, because they feel deeply insecure, and this is this has worked for them for at some level in the past, so that you can see them as a human being. And you may disagree with the behavior, but you're not disagreeing with the fundamental humanity of the other person. But in a way, we're kind of flipping that with what we're saying back to ourselves, that we need to act from a place of positive intent, and realize when we are acting from a place of positive intent, rather than, as you said, Oh, I'm doing this for me, you know. And as you said, this is something I noticed from an awful lot of sales people in that negotiation sales area, which is they start the relationship in a series of meetings, you know, they'll start, and they're all about. Other side, they're all Oh, yeah. And the other side are feeling this, because I often hear, Oh, how do I handle this objection, and how do I handle that objection? What do I say in that objection? And my response is usually, why did they not have these objections beforehand? Because they could sense that you were for them. Your intent was pure. It was for their benefit. You were genuinely curious about their situation, helping them and so on, right? And then when it came to getting the ball over the line, to use the metaphor, suddenly you're seeing the brand new kitchen, or that, you know, second vacation, or whatever it is. And all of a sudden they're like, whoa, something changed. Here you're look, I can see you're seeing dollar signs when you're looking at me. Now, right? Like in the old cartoons, am I on the right page here? You know, would you agree that it's the atmosphere that changes? Right? People pick up on Absolutely.

Mark Anderson  35:52  
I talk about that all the time. I tell people all the time, can I see that in the interview room? I've sat on so many training sessions and watch people do interviews. I say there's no you can't go from being Mr. Rogers to being Dr Jekyll. It just doesn't work out that way. You know, there's got to be a usually use a till of the hunt. Mr. Rogers did till of the hunt because there's got to be a consistency. I see people do rapport. It's this lovey dovey and, you know, they were creating this great relationship. And then when they move into talking about what they're really there about, they their whole personality changes, they say, well, So anyhow, what I really came here about today was and they just absolutely destroyed the relationship that they built, you know, so we got to be in

Al McBride  36:42  
consistency, yeah, the lack of consistency,

Mark Anderson  36:44  
because then the person not knowing themselves,

Al McBride  36:47  
I thought that was but now you just dropped all that, so that wasn't genuine at all. So you've just burned through. You're in negative rapport here. Then they don't believe anything. They say it's like, okay, you're gonna turn on me again, you know? Yeah, great points. Wow, yeah, I never quite told

Mark Anderson  37:03  
and I tell people all the but I bet you see that as well. It's like some people are totally oblivious to the fact they're doing that. And you know, I would say to these people, you watch yourself on there and tell me whether you would talk to you if you were on the other side of that table. That's just people I don't want to hang out with exactly,

Al McBride  37:24  
exactly on that note, just to focus down for people, resources, for people you know, would there be one valuable, free resource that you could direct people to, to help them with the design?

Mark Anderson  37:36  
I have about 100 of them. They can have. They can, if you put my website in the show notes or it and you have the LinkedIn, my LinkedIn thing, which I have, I think I'm up to 100 and some articles on there that are all free, and it can either go to the website, there's other their videos and stuff on the website. What I want you to do is, I may be coming at it from a investigation standpoint or interviewer standpoint, but I just wrote one this week, and I started it out in the one that I wrote this week was, Don't limit your scope of understanding this topic. Oh, I was talking about trauma informed interviewing, which is talking to people that are under incredible stress, man that is useful in the realm of interviewing, but if you're a decent human being, it's youthful in every aspect of your life, because a friend, a family member, somebody in your life who's going to be in A traumatic, stressful situation, and you can be the difference in their lives by applying some of these steps. So when you go through the topics that are on the website or and LinkedIn or wherever you find my stuff, you're more than welcome to download it and copy it and read it and do whatever you want with it. But don't look at it from just an interviewing perspective, which is where my target audience is. Look at it from a life perspective. How does this apply in the realm of negotiation? A lot of them are written for. How does this apply in my life? How do I make a difference with my loved ones? How do I make a difference with my children? So take it and look at it from that scope and see if it makes a difference. And then if you have questions, you just say, this guy's full of crap. Drop me an email. I will get back to you. It might take a day or two. You know, you can give me a call if you want. I'll be glad to talk you through it. Be glad to provide more resources. Almost everything I write comes from research papers that I can I can give you those if you're interested in those. I frankly don't enjoy reading research, but it's boring to me, but there's lots of that there. If that would help your people at all, they're more than welcome to it would be

Al McBride  39:59  
fantastic. And. That's Anderson investigative.com and of course, there'll be links beneath this episode on the podcast and indeed, on YouTube as well. So what would be your number one principle on how to negotiate, build rapport, connection with your counterparts? I know we've touched on quite a few of them. We touched on, you know, rapport. We touched on credibility, and indeed, know thyself. And there's some fantastic things. Is there anything else you'd add to that? Is there, is there another element there that could be very useful for people,

Mark Anderson  40:37  
really, I think so much of it comes back to knowing yourself, being comfortable in your own skin. Don't try to be somebody else. You know, I see this happen all the time. I teach all over the country, and people say, Well, I'm going to steal what you what you do there? I said, Fine, steal it. Use it all day long, but make it your own. Absolutely don't take what I'm saying and try to imitate me, because you're not me. You got to make this stuff your own. You have to be just invest yourself into this so that they are seeing you. If you want to build trust, you have to reveal a certain amount of you know yourself, and that's part of it, knowing yourself. Understand how much you can say, how much you're willing to say in those environments, that you don't get caught off guard by it. Have those you know, those confines up and be aware of who you are in that regard and and I think that's what makes all the difference. Again, that's that whole issue of having integrity and being real as to who you are. And an awful lot of that comes back to that. And then the stuff that I teach is about putting tools in your tool belt to make you more effective at doing that as you're being yourself, understanding,

Al McBride  41:57  
yeah, there's something, as you said, then it comes across as a buzz word of light, but a very accurate one, being authentic and people authenticity, but it's absolutely correct. That's what people respond to, that they're having a genuine conversation, that there aren't ulterior motives, that people are doing and being what they say they're doing and being which sounds simple, but an awful lot of people fall into those traps, right? But

Mark Anderson  42:27  
if you think about it, Al, and you look around you, it's becoming a very rare quality. Absolutely, I see a lot, yeah, and so when you approach it this way, you're different, and that difference is, I believe what people are looking for. You know, I want to come out of an interview, and I want that person sitting across from me say, man, thank you. I never expected to be treated like that. I was telling the story a couple weeks ago. I investigate a guy, and he was, I was at his sentencing, he was getting sentenced to prison, so he was being taken out to be taken to prison, and he turned around and said, Thanks Mark for helping me get my life straightened out. And I'm thinking, Man, you are off to jail. I'm going home. And you're thanking me, but he was thanking me because I invested in him. In those interviews, we talked about all sorts of things, and I treated him respectfully. I treated him as a human being. I didn't criticize him for some of his odd behavior and and we worked through some stuff that he had never worked through in life, because never, nobody had ever stepped up to do it. So to me, that's like, I'm not sure I would do that to somebody if I was on my way to jail, but he did. And I think we have to be that authentic self in order for that to happen. That's 100%

Al McBride  43:55  
this is there's a whole other relevant thing to get into on, as you said, that investment in the other side. There was obviously a genuine human empathy, little loath to use the word caring, but there is an element that you actually regard the other person as worthwhile, regardless of what they may be accused of.

Mark Anderson  44:17  
I do that because I get up and look at myself in the mirror every day. And man, I better be understanding of others if this is who I am, absolutely, absolutely so I don't need to judge them. And frankly, I have a curiosity too, you know, very curious. How did you get here? What what happened? What happened?

Al McBride  44:39  
Circumstances panned out. Yes, mix with your thinking that brought you into this situation right here, absolutely endless curiosity. I'm right there with you, Mark. But look, thank you so much. So I put your LinkedIn below. I know you're quite active there. And. There's a huge amount of resources on Anderson investigative.com Do look up Mark's other interviews. There's absolute wealth of information there. It's fantastic stuff. So Mark, thank you so much.

Mark Anderson  45:14  
Thank you for letting me come on. I know I'm not your normal guest as far as what I do, but, man, I think there are a lot of parallels, and I hugely respect what you're doing. I don't know how I ended up in that webinar last week. I'm not even sure how we connected, necessarily, but I was so glad to be there. I wrote a ton of notes because of that parallel of what you talk about, what I talk about, the good, solid communication skills, the basis and credibility and integrity. I mean, I gained huge respect for you in the hour that you know, we're on that webinar together, and I think what you're doing is great, is gotta make a difference, because it's a psychologically sound principles of communication. And anything I can do to help you, I'm here for you.

Al McBride  46:03  
Well, that's hugely appreciated, and thank you for those kind words, Mark, it's that's fantastic. Excellent stuff. Thank you. Cheers, Mark. All right. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai