Mikaela Taivassalo: Keeping Minority Languages Alive In A Digital Book World

What happens when a writer who cracked the code at four grows up to lead a nation’s authors in a rapidly changing book economy? We sit down with Mikaela, president of the Society of Swedish Authors in Finland, to explore how love of language becomes both a creative engine and a shield for cultural diversity. From her early sense of writing as a private room for thinking to the public work of advocacy, she opens up about balancing solitude with leadership and why literature functions as democratic infrastructure, not a luxury.

We travel through the pressures squeezing small-language communities: declining deep reading, a tilt toward entertainment-first publishing, and the quiet erosion of literary biodiversity. Mikaela lays out a sharper toolkit for authors—time-limited contracts, firm retention of rights, and royalty transparency that turns opaque audiobook streaming into accountable income. She explains how “seconds listened” distorts value and why publishers must partner with writers to demand clear reporting from platforms.

The conversation tackles AI head-on. Who decides if a text becomes training data, and who gets paid when machines learn from human craft? Mikaela’s north star is straightforward: transparency, consent, and fair remuneration across borders, with practical licensing paths that scale from Finland to Europe and beyond. We round out with the fuel that keeps risk-taking alive—grants, mentorship, translation, and cross-border alliances that link Finland-Swedish literature to Nordic and European readers—plus one structural move that could lift the whole ecosystem: zero VAT on books, from print to audio.

If you care about author rights, minority languages, and the future of reading, this conversation offers clarity and next steps. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves books, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show. What change would you make first: fairer contracts, AI licensing, or zero book VAT?

Check out "Protection for the Inventive Mind" – available now on Amazon in print and Kindle formats.

The views and opinions expressed (by the host and guest(s)) in this podcast are strictly their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the entities with which they may be affiliated. This podcast should in no way be construed as promoting or criticizing any particular government policy, institutional position, private interest or commercial entity. Any content provided is for informational and educational purposes only.

Transcript

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Opening And Season Preview

Mikaela Taivassalo 0:00

Uh it's not measurable uh how we pay off. It's like uh asking yourself uh what what is the purpose of love? Why do we love each other? Is there a purpose?

Leticia Caminero 0:12

Do we get uh what what is that doing for for uh uh for our economical uh I say it's doing everything, everything is uh everything is done by love or for love or because of love, but despite of love.

Mikaela Taivassalo 0:29

So exactly. So uh but but now uh I I think uh we see the same tendencies in uh I think it's uh like global tendencies. We'll be discussing this in uh international contexts as well, uh, that uh genre literature is unlike more uh uh literature that is written written to be entertainment more than uh art.

Announcer 0:58

You are listening to Intangibilia, the podcast of Intangible Law, playing talk about intellectual property. Please welcome your host, Leticia Caminero.

Leticia Caminero 1:10

Hello, my name is Leticia Caminero, your host, and welcome to this new season, season eight. On this season, we have a special treat. We're gonna be interviewing different members from the International Authors Forum. We're gonna be talking about publishing, art, literature, translation, and much more. Stick around for lively discussions and many, many interesting conversations.

Meet Mikaela And Her Path To Writing

Mikaela Taivassalo 1:45

Hello, I'm uh Mikaela, Hannah Lamikaela Taiwassal. Uh but it's easier to shorten down that to Mikaela. And uh I am the president right now uh for the Society of Swedish Authors in Finland. Uh I'm an author myself, uh uh writing maybe maybe in every genre there is, or at least I'm interested in everything. I'm uh uh mainly, mainly, mainly prose, mainly novels, but uh I've been writing everything from children's literature to to uh drama. So uh I'm basically curious uh of all that is literature, and literature has been like uh from from the start from from childhood, it's been the most important part of uh my life. Uh my most important friend maybe uh has been literature from a child and onwards, and now I'm working both uh in the field of uh author's rights and uh creatively as a writer myself.

Leticia Caminero 2:56

So when did you first uh thought of um becoming an author and and working in this beautiful field?

Mikaela Taivassalo 3:07

I think I have kind of a classic author's background, uh cracking the code uh as a child by myself, or uh of course it's not by yourself, but you uh like being curious of books, being curious of uh words and uh how how you do this, how you do this coding uh when you see the text and you uh you kind of learn that people uh get sentences out from these uh scribbled uh words. Uh and uh as I think I was about four years old when I cracked the code, so to say. And from that uh moment on, uh it was for me, it was like a revelation of some kind. I suddenly got uh got a secret room of my own uh where I could decide things. As a child, it was really important to me that I could decide. This was my kingdom, I could do anything. And when I uh learned to to write, it was like uh having some uh some special power that uh gave me, gave me the words, really, gave me a voice. It was uh really of such importance to me that uh it uh kind of is that that's it's not a moment, of course, it's a process of learning, but that that uh all the reading was uh so important to me that it it really has been one of the most life-changing in a in an early age, but one of the most life-changing uh greatest uh changes in my in my world. And it was like uh I don't know, I've been a reader since, and I uh from the reading I became a writer, and that's quite a classic story of being an author.

Leticia Caminero 5:02

Yeah, you first um uh fall in love with uh storytelling, fall in love with the building of uh universes inside um uh uh black and white, and then it just comes natural. So that links to our next question on your

Balancing Presidency And Creative Work

Leticia Caminero 5:20

um dual role. So you lead the author society while you continue your career as a writing, um as an author. What personal system have you built to keep advocacy, administration, and art from draining one another? Because they're both quite, I imagine, consuming roles. And where do they productively collide?

Mikaela Taivassalo 5:49

Uh that's really an important uh question that I've been uh thinking a lot about, of course. Uh because um, and it was really uh a nice question to get because uh it kind of I've been thinking of it of it, but in like a different way, that uh that clash between those two roles uh could be uh creative as well as well. That's not really uh the way of uh that's not my thinking of it. It's been like two divided words, but really they're like uh giving things to each other as well. Uh for me, it's been really clear uh that uh writing has been kind of my uh escape from the rule from uh from that kind of uh doing. I like the doing. I'm really, really happy about the possibility to do things for the most important thing in the world, that is literature, of course. Uh and working, working for uh this to me very, very important uh and uh really like uh the most important uh thing that is to to work for uh writers' authors' rights and uh and uh literature uh as a whole. So uh but it's it's been it's of course it's been very uh it's consuming time and strength, of course. It's it's it's really it's really tough. And these times, these political times and things like uh things are changing uh right now. We have like uh a new digital world that is uh emerging. We have uh a lot of uh of problems and new things that are not problems, that could be advantages, but things are moving so fast now, and uh we have uh a political time that is really um uh it's uh it's a struggle to be uh to be in the world uh in this time, but uh it has been really uh of course complicated in many ways to be in this role in this time, but uh also rewarding because you have the sense that you uh can do something for the things that are important to you. Um and for, I mean, uh I think that writing is also an act of democracy and uh human rights, not only author's rights, it's human rights as well. Um so so uh for me that has been uh both uh consuming and empowering in many ways, but I have had my uh comfort zone, my escape route, and that has been writing. And uh it's always been all the time. It's not been like a thing that I have to keep on doing because I'm a writer. It's been quite the contrary, it's been it's been my comfort zone, it's been uh my escape from uh well maybe from reality, but not not really, because it's it's like um writing is creating uh a kind of other reality as well. It's not just escaping, it's uh it's a lot more. It's uh it's thinking, it's um it's creating a room uh to think in. Uh there's so many ways that uh writing is uh empowering, uh both for the person that writes, and also I'm I'm like I said, I'm a reader from the start. I'm a reader, so uh reading literature is also a way of thinking for me. So um this uh it was such a nice question to get because my um my first thought was not this, but my last thought, uh or the chain of thoughts led to this. That uh really um that this um as an author, I'm uh I have my solitude. Um I'm I'm alone with you you're uh as a writer, you're uh you're craving things in your head by yourself. Uh and uh for some people uh that is like the dream situation to be in.

Digital Upheaval And Author Resilience

Mikaela Taivassalo 10:15

And for some people are more social. Uh and I think I I have most of uh human beings are social beings, so we crave to have other people around. And for me, uh this uh being being president uh for the Society of Swedish Authors in Finland has been, of course, really like it's it's really a social context. You meet people, you have meetings, you discuss things, you argue, you uh you communicate, uh everything uh is about uh being around others, you network everything. Uh and it's been really uh lovely. I I and I met a lot of new people, a lot of people I've met before, of course, but uh a lot of uh new people from different backgrounds, but we all have had this in common that uh we're uh writing or we're in the literary field in some way, and that has been for me really uh really a good thing, but it also it consumes your time, it uh it it of course your energy as well. Uh so for me it's been a like a give and take relationship, really. Uh when I've kind of uh when it's been at its best, I got the best from it all.

Leticia Caminero 11:40

So you can escape to each world, then you can escape to your solitude and write, or you can escape uh from your solitude and and mingle and be social.

Mikaela Taivassalo 11:51

Yes, and when you when you uh when you meet people, when you meet other cultures, well uh this has brought me to uh other cultures, uh this this role as a president, of course, uh have and this uh international context, uh which have been really important to me, has uh brought that to me. Uh colliding with other cultures and colliding. I think colliding is a good word, it's a positive word. I like colliding. For me, uh literature reading is colliding, you're colliding with somebody's uh thoughts or somebody's perspective, just uh to uh get to have another perspective is is the most important thing. And uh and that's too is uh has been inspiring for me. Uh and I didn't thought uh think about that before I got this question from you, but it's been inspiring for me because uh every new impulse is in a way something that makes you it maybe it doesn't give you the theme, but it puts your thoughts uh in another route, it changes a route perspective, and that's the things you need as a writer, really. It pushes you out of your of your normalcy. Yeah, exactly. It pushes us you out from the comfort zone, yeah, definitely.

Leticia Caminero 13:11

Which we need uh many times, we need a push in order to act. So um speaking of more about the role minority language in a majority ambition. So you are um in a small language community, a scale is limited, but intensely can be high. Um, what metrics beyond sales should define success for Phil and Swedish authors? And how is the society pushing those metrics into publisher and

Minority Language Pressures And Reading Decline

Leticia Caminero 13:45

uh funder conversations?

Mikaela Taivassalo 13:48

Yeah, well, that's really like a major concern. It's always been, of course, for a minority, uh, but now when uh when times are harder, uh then of course uh we we live in times where uh where selling is uh is the most important and money uh talks. Uh of course you could uh those times are uh coming and going more or less uh all the time staying. But uh well it the times are hard, and I think that uh we tend to get more uh literature that uh is kind of uh genre literature that is uh uh the publishing houses wants to to sell. They want, of course, because the times are uh hard. So it's a struggle, economical struggle for all of us uh in most countries. Uh and literature, of course, uh is affected by this really uh whole the cultural field and and and uh the artistic field are of course the first uh fields that uh or every field, but uh but we we're not like the money makers, we're not a factory, so so art is not uh paying off in the same. Uh it's not measurable uh how we pay off. It's like uh asking yourself uh what what is the purpose of love? Why do we love each other? Is there a purpose?

Leticia Caminero 15:23

Do we get uh what what is that doing for for uh uh for our economical uh I say it's doing everything, everything is uh everything is done by love or for love or because of love, but despite of love.

Mikaela Taivassalo 15:40

So exactly. So uh but but now uh I I think uh we see the same tendencies in uh I think it's uh like global tendencies. We'll be discussing this in uh international context as well, uh, that uh genre literatures and like more uh uh literature that is written written to be entertainment more than uh art uh is getting uh more and more of the space. And uh it's not only I'm not only talking about uh measurement uh as uh uh selling and buying books, but uh measurement in in reading. We have like most countries are facing um problems when it comes to reading, or many country uh countries are uh facing problems uh uh regarding reading ability uh within the population. Uh not all. There are uh those who uh are still reading countries, but Finland used to be like a reader's country, a reading country, and now uh now uh it seems like uh seems like we're moving, uh sloping off from that track. We're los losing losing it in a bit, and that affects of course literature uh directly. So uh and uh in a way that uh that uh the literature that isn't uh really the best seller literature uh literature doesn't really get uh as much space and doesn't get as much readers and uh doesn't get and this is the most important thing, I think, as much interest and uh and and space in the public eye as uh, for example, genre literature uh and popular literature. So uh that's and I don't mean that genre literature literature and popular literature, that's not a problem in itself because we need like uh we need a broad literature, we need we need everything, we need uh we need uh reading for for everybody and for every um every taste as well. Uh but the problem is that uh the diversity is uh shrinking. It's it's like a this huge ecological, literature, uh ecological uh problem that uh when uh when we when we tend to to to lose some uh some some small but really important piece of literature, then uh it affects all the literature and language as well. So uh that's I think I'm uh I'm now uh probably answering a lot of questions at the same time.

Leticia Caminero 18:33

Yeah, I know, but it's it's it's uh it's part of the conversation. So um there's the the society shift. So people are less likely to read uh uh for longer periods of time, they have also less time to read. Um the taste changes according to generations, according to what is happening in the world as well. Sometimes people like to consume a lot of uh specific types, and then all of a sudden the the taste of the popular taste shifts to another to another gender. So we saw that with the romanticy, there was this huge romantic boom um that has been happening for the last couple of years, and now their prediction is it's gonna change to something else. Before that, we had um the um the older this werewolf uh vampires kind of um boom as well. Uh but you can argue that those all of those existed for a long time, but uh in the rate that they were consumed, maybe not the same. And we had also the issue of technology. Technology is making us less likely to spend more time doing um the reading or concentrating, which is something that our minds are changing. And this is concerning, um, especially when you think about the capacity that you used to have before you had a cell phone, because I can remember the time before cell phones. Um uh and I knew all phone numbers of everyone. And right now, I don't even know my own phone number. So to see the change, something so minimal like that. Now I don't I cannot even remember. I know that starts with one letter and that's it, one number, and that's it. I don't remember the rest.

Mikaela Taivassalo 20:17

Yeah, exactly. And in uh in Finland, and I think that goes for all the Nordic countries as least. Uh with and this is really, really like a concern, even if it's in one way maybe good, is that uh uh uh the younger population, the younger readers,

Beyond Sales Metrics For Small Literatures

Mikaela Taivassalo 20:35

uh they tend to read in English. Uh they do speak English, of course, it's uh our lingua franca, and everybody's on the net, so everybody's there uh in uh are international or have uh the uh the possibility to be uh international, which is good. And uh and then you have you have like that access to uh to a language that uh everybody speaks. I mean, we're speaking English right now, even if not a first language. Uh and and but we're communicating, and that's good. Communicating is good, but it and it's good in those senses, but it's not good, for example, uh for a minority language or small language. We have to remember that Finnish is not a big language, uh it's it's really a small language uh too, even if it's not it's a majority for us, we're a minority, we speak Swedish speaking, but uh Finnish is also uh a really small language in the world. And that's really it's uh it's not good for literature if people do not uh read or know, deeply know, have deep uh insight in their own mother tongue, in their own language. That's really a

Leticia Caminero 22:00

uh huge concern right now even if one part of me think it's great and it's a lot of advantages uh that we able to communicate uh on a deeper level level uh international that's so true and languages have um there we have diverse languages because we have diverse cultures and diverse views of of the world and there's things that i can say in spanish that i i never be able to really translate into another language because they're rooted in in the tradition i'm i'm from the dominican republic so i'm rooted in in my country and in my culture and i whenever i try to translate even a um a small phrase i always have to have a long explanation of what it means and all the background and so forth and i imagine that happens to all the languages as well there's there's so much um um history even behind a small phrase that can convey a lot of meaning for someone from that language so it's it's it's important to conserve languages because that means you're also taking care of culture and and and views of different views of the world yeah and if you don't have the deep knowledge of your own language uh let's say for example uh if writers do not have that deep level of knowledge uh of uh uh the language which is uh the thing you're uh working uh really hard with that that is your tool that is your most important tool then of course uh how how can you enrich the language how can you it's not uh I think that uh you need to to uh take care of it and as you said conserve it as well uh and take care of the culture and uh your heritage and everything but uh I mean uh writing writers and literature do uh make the language evolve as well you make the uh language alive so uh how can we do that if we do not know and have those skills as uh as writers and that's a major concern for for me yeah I I completely understand and it's something that we will we will talk about it more and more the more technology advances the more intercommunicated we are um the more also we have to um remember the importance of local languages of national languages and and and all that because that also is part of the identity of the nation of of of the of the community that we belong to so moving to a more formal part um being an author uh in this new age in this brave new world um talking specifically about uh contracts and authors' rights what are the three most common clauses you urge authors to negotiate in today and which new practices do you want Finland Swedish publishers to adopt to rebalance information's asymmetries yes oh uh that's um that's that's really uh really really a tough question to to to choose uh things but I uh what I've seen uh things that uh things that uh we do need to remind people of all the time is uh is time uh if you if you're making a contract you uh you have to have a set time for it uh you can't give your rights forever and that uh you have to have like a uh a set time for uh when you have to uh renew uh the contract or when you have uh when it's not uh not uh um or when when it ends you have to have like a set time so time is one and then uh that brings uh the uh the other thing that uh it's really like ridiculous that you have to keep an eye on this but you really do have to keep an eye on your uh on your author's rights uh you can't uh ever give your uh rights away and uh and if if you don't if you don't spell that out in a contract uh you you uh that that's there has to be really clear that the rights remains within the author. And and I I've seen no not when it comes to to the older publishing houses but uh I mean the feel is changing and there's new newcomers and and there's also like uh high hybrid uh publishing and uh and and self-publishing and semi semi self publishing publishers as well so we see we see that

Contracts 101 Time Rights And Royalties

Leticia Caminero 27:38

and and I mean uh people uh people despair really a desperate need to be published and are willing to to like uh write a contract and and and accept uh the terms and uh and yeah that's that's really one of my concerns that I've seen a lot of contracts where uh where where uh the uh the rights uh or where you're trying to keep the rights uh all the rights the entire rights or too many uh rights uh for for the publisher and uh for example uh so that's that's a major problem the uh the um author's rights is always uh the author's right your the rights holder uh and that comes to the third one i was thinking about what what what we point out the third one is uh really uh your uh following uh questions a question now in this time uh and this is like a Nordic uh problem uh the uh audiobook problem uh that we have here uh it's not just a problem like everything everything is not just a problem it uh it it yeah i mean uh literature uh gets uh its readers through uh audiobooks as well but we have the uh these uh streaming streaming services that are kind of uh uh problematic for uh for the authors uh we're not selling books the books are there uh supplied uh by the platforms uh and uh and you don't you don't buy a book you uh you buy access to the books and then uh then you um maybe maybe start uh listening to to a book and uh there's some digits or seconds and then you stop so this uh measurement when it comes to contracts that this have been really like there's a lot of uh of problems in our field uh when it comes to uh this uh streaming of uh of uh audiobooks but uh but the transparency problem here is really huge uh i mean uh you have to you you have to uh in the reality uh in the royalty reports reality reports that's a fraud slip in the uh royalty reports uh you you have to report uh how many books you have been uh selling and the publisher has to uh report uh the amount of books but that that's uh difficult uh it's really difficult and I can understand that it's difficult uh to uh report digits uh or seconds of a book uh but uh but really really uh the author the rights holder has uh to be able to know how the book is used and by whom uh I mean those different platforms and they uh have different uh uh different uh systems and of course uh the publisher wants to to report this in an in an easy way that's understandable but still uh we're uh I mean it's hard to act on things if you don't know uh if you don't know how how your book is used or what you get from uh from who uh in regards of uh royalty and royalty reports so that transparency is uh is kind of a uh a really uh acute problem uh here in in in finland and also also uh I guess in in the rest of the Nordic countries with the same uh same problems and the same platforms because they're really non-transparent uh and of course we're hoping for for uh the publishing host houses as well to to to be to be uh our partners in in this and uh I mean because we're uh we're quite small and uh and they have the contact with the uh platforms so so we really need to to get them to be loyal to us uh to us not to to uh not to be be just uh uh I guess they're not loyal loyalty is not the word when it comes to business but to have this uh kind of business agreement with uh the platforms uh not not to share uh that kind of information that is like uh business information and and and uh classified but it it shan't be classified uh because the right holder the p the the one that has written the book is of course the one that uh has to to to to get all this information should get all this information so uh that that's that's a complicated thing that we're now uh keeping our eyes on and uh and and trying to work out but I mean uh I'm uh I'm the president of Swedish authors in Finland and that makes me uh president of um uh a quite small minority um even if it's big to be a minority uh organization so uh I mean even if we would boycott uh boycott uh the uh audio platforms it it it I mean it wouldn't it wouldn't work we have to to to uh unite and do things together and do things together with the publishers as well yeah and and you can always um find ways to balance the interests and and find ways to have um to find a middle ground between the two interests because um as you explain um you need each other so the platform needs

Streaming Audiobooks And Transparency Gaps

Leticia Caminero 33:58

the the the writers and the writers need the platform in order to to um um put their their works out there so there's always um finding the balance is always the hard part uh um between uh between the parties but I think it's something that it can be built on together um little by little and new technologies can always help especially with technical limitations um now we're seeing a lot of um breakthroughs in that regard of tracking or understanding um consumer behavior and maybe that can also be put into work for for understanding how the um the works are being consumed and and where to find a a fair um redistribution in that sense so um speaking of new technologies we have the elephant in the room AI how is the society advising members on text and data set licensing for AI training audiobook and syntactic voice rights and secondary digital uses um what would a fail licensing deal would look like in the Finland Swedish uh context reality well I guess uh this is like such an international question as uh my only answer is that we we're uh we we need to have exactly the same uh kind of uh contracts and possibilities as uh as we're all uh in you in Europe and uh and on an international uh level uh and in in Finland nationally of course uh working uh towards and excuse me and uh well also there uh if I link this to to to uh what I said what I said before uh when it comes to the contract uh we need uh those uh three uh important things transparency consent and fair remuneration uh of course and I I think that uh the first problem now is to to kind of make clear that uh that also here uh it's the rights holder who who has uh should have uh that's not the case but should have the right to decide how uh uh texts are used uh also that also uh of course uh regarding uh training material as a training material for for uh for uh IA it's not the case we we know that uh that there are uh it's it's not easy to to control how texts are used digitally and there's uh different ways of of uh thinking uh when it comes to to to what is fair and what is uh uh within uh the law but uh but yeah that this is a really a huge uh problem so my first impulse when I hear this question is always even though I I I know fair fairly much about this problem then I just want to scream help intangiblia the podcast of intangible law plain talk about intellectual property or at least if not if not uh help I I I I need I I wish my uh my uh or our society's lawyer was here because she specialized in it and even if she specialized in it in it and really really hardcore reads everything uh what's happening in field and it happens and it happens so fast then even though uh it's hard to really put your finger on what's needed but we're we're we're coming we're coming somewhere uh and I I think it's good that there are uh ways to ways to uh to try to uh try try to um prevent uh prevent uh things uh or prevent that uh that your uh material is uh is uh used or at least get some uh remuneration for uh for for it and that's uh and for me for me i'm I'm more concerned of uh of uh not not because and that concern is really like uh it's it's all almost a waste to to be concerned because it's it's you can't control it but I would I would if I could have a wish I would like to control uh what is done to my text and where it's uh used and who is using it uh and and really we don't want uh uh those uh uh big companies to to profit on our works because uh that's unfair so of course there's a uh hope that there would be kind some kind of uh remuneration for uh use of of the works as well and that has to be done on an um both national and international uh level because uh I mean as we know uh tech is uh is not national uh uh the digital world is uh world is international so we have to work on two levels for this. Yes of course this is the um as we're speaking about the balance so all of oh it's all about the balance i mean technology is always going to advance um it's always going to move forward uh but we have to make sure that it doesn't leave people behind especially if it's if it's being built on the work of those people and connecting with the next question about um collaboration international collaboration um what cross-border alliances are most effective for a small language community like yourself and where do you see on-tap uh leverage for Finland Swedish authors in Europe and beyond oh uh that's too really a um core of uh my uh of everything I I uh uh that is of importance for me and uh the things I've been working for uh or trying to uh I've been trying to work for for for uh for uh for having like a bigger context for this uh quite small literature that we have I mean for it's that too is quite common for human beings we want to have our context we want to what want to have a communication but I think that it's uh it's it's really a question of life and death when it uh concerning uh minority uh the smaller the group uh the bigger the importance of uh having uh bigger content content context a bigger uh world I mean uh and for writers as well not only for uh the literature

AI Training Consent And Fair Pay

Leticia Caminero 41:58

I think for writers as well it's uh it's been it's been traditionally uh the Finland Swedish literature has been quite uh quite interested in what's going on in the world and it's been be been like a uh uh kind of um cultural blending uh taking impulses from uh both uh both the uh both central Europe and uh and the Nordic countries of course and from Russia as well so it's been like a a blender a mix uh in a good way in a really good way not not like um which is the other problem uh uh a minority uh language literature um might also be turn inwards and and like uh just just uh be in that secure own space but but but I uh I I think it's uh I think it's a uh really a question of importance that you build uh build some kind of uh of larger context for for literature and that you have your partnerships and your uh uh companions and and and your bigger context so for for for me and for uh our association in a whole it's uh the question is yes every every context every every partnership every every uh context we have have been of uh a huge importance for for us as a small organization and as a small literature we have like a really strong connection of course to the Finnish literature as well we're part of the Finnish literature but we're also uh uh not a part of the Finnish Finnish literature which I I in in my opinion that's really a good place to be in because you uh the uh perspectives the different perspective that's good for literature it's it's good for writers I think that uh gives a lot to to uh to uh the literature uh written as well and that's partly a uh an answer to your second question what we can uh what we have to to to bring out to the world what you could uh give what's uh our strength that is uh that it's it's

Mikaela Taivassalo 44:29

really it's really a uh a a living and vivid literature even if it's small there's a lot of genres represented and it's a lot of uh it's that's both a really uh a really strong tradition of uh of uh children's uh literature and uh really a strong poetical uh tradition and so on so there's a lot of uh of things to give give uh well in in the same the strength is uh uh one of our strengths are probably that we're not uh we're not we don't have a market in a good sense as well so we don't have to adjust to or we shouldn't have to adjust to mark market in that way uh that's a problem as well but uh it's something good as well so for me it's uh as a president it it's been really um of great importance to to try to to to build uh and and keep up the strong connections uh to for example sweden to of course because we're part of the Swedish literature as well uh even if we're not in Sweden so we're strangers uh strange literature as well for for for the Swedes in one way uh but we're part of that literature as well and the part of Finnish literature of course and uh uh we strongly have a Nordic connection as well and that uh I think that uh platform has been really of importance both when it comes to um for authors in general to to to that we're able to read uh the literature written in in the Nordic countries uh and able to to connect with uh personally with other authors in the Nordic countries but also that we have like similar uh poly political and cultural political uh interests and uh problems as well so uh so that's really uh uh uh been of importance and of course for me uh the European context but also for me it's really grew stronger and stronger the uh need to have this uh international context as well because uh and it's it's naturally and now we we spoke about our uh our uh digital era so we're uh we're in the same uh digital uh geography uh so uh we act with with the within the same uh field and with the same uh handling the same problems and uh working for uh good solutions that could be like solution beyond country borders so uh for me for me that's been really like uh if I've started out this uh in the beginning I was speaking about uh that uh the times are harsh now and harsh on culture and and and arts so what I've both personally and I think for the association as well it's been really uh really something uh profoundly positive that we have this um on an international level as well have this uh context and uh and conversations and uh we share information uh we uh we share uh uh what's happening right now because you know if one thing is happening uh there then you know that you're soon going to have the same kind of uh problems or uh advantages in your own country so um uh that's that's been of of great import importance for me both personally and as a writer and uh for the association as well.

Leticia Caminero 48:40

So there's uh power in numbers um and the collaboration is very vital for associations and and for for pushing also changes but you keep yourself as well different because you are you keep your uh your um uniqueness intact while you you also keep the door open for for talks collaboration and working together so it's it's a it's a beautiful way of of of doing

Cross-Border Alliances And Nordic Ties

Leticia Caminero 49:08

the work of making sure you stay true to to who you are as an association yeah yeah I think I tend to see things like I see literature I tend to see this uh this work as well and uh probably uh the way of living is is is the uh positive uh colliding but in a positive way yeah totally agree changing perspectives that's i i mean that's hard that's hard even if you aim uh aim for it and even if you try hardly not to uh think in the same ways you tend to to to do your thinking in your same uh roots you uh it's so hard it's a known road yeah um and you uh I don't know if you have seen this study about um um how the mind works and the mind always trying to find shortcuts yeah whenever what in everything we do in the routine daily routine in in the way we think so this is something that is come is second nature so it that's why it's so hard to break habit because the mind is always gonna find the the the path more traveled and and and the safe path the path that you know somewhere that might lead you to something that doesn't solve your problem so yeah completely agree so um thinking about um the open commerce the new writers the new authors um the ones who are just uh starting in the in the profession what skills um are missing uh in most of these kind of new writers new new authors when they first approach the society and how should creative writing education evolve in finland to make sure that the new professionals um are ready for this new reality yeah um of course as uh working in the field myself with uh creating writing i uh i've been thinking about this a lot and uh been thinking about this um do we have a need to to evolve uh the education for for writers as well uh and um uh it might be some kind of paradox being uh teaching writing but uh i think that uh uh as uh i said uh before that um uh it it the reading the problem uh when it comes to to uh to the ability ability to read text uh and deep deeply understand uh or on on a deeper level uh the understanding of uh of of uh text uh and uh literature and books uh right now today and uh how how how we're now right now facing problems when it comes to to uh to to the ability um of uh of uh younger generations and that's not even younger generations that's uh our generations as well um mine and yours uh in literature we're uh we're in the same generation no worries yeah but uh i i think that the main problem is that uh that the uh if if there's uh if there's a problem in uh reading comprehension uh and if there's not an interest in in reading generally uh and uh that uh that's going of course to affect uh uh literature as well because uh then again it you can say that it's always the readers that becomes the writers that's maybe not always the case but uh in in quite uh in quite many uh aspects that's uh a truth as well but that's going to it's going to affect uh literature uh as as well uh in in some way and uh and and we see uh i i don't know if we're really uh in my association we do not perhaps see that yet but i think that uh that it's it's it's in a way it's hard to see because i mean uh there might be uh writers that don't don't have the skills because of uh of this problem uh because they uh their the their language is not that evolved not that strong as uh even if they're readers if they're reading in in English and writing in Swedish that affects uh your writing so that might be a be that but might become a problem for you to be published uh if you don't uh if you don't know your your your tools uh so I think that's uh that's one of the problems uh that's one of the solutions as well that uh the main even if I'm I'm not good at marketing and I'm a uh I'm myself is is a writing teacher and I always tend to say that the most important important uh school is not my school it's not my teaching even if I'm doing my best it's reading reading reading and also writing writing writing uh that's the best school that's where you learn it's by reading your uh you become a writer not uh and then you can uh get uh help to to uh in in many ways by attending uh writing classes and uh and and uh and get help uh with uh with your own voice and your own uh way of of uh of uh well writing how how you write and what you write and things like that but I see I see it more like uh that's what I'm doing I see it more like mentorship not uh as education it in in that sense you because you can't really you can't you can just offer the tools but you can't tell a writer what to write or how to write it. You can just try to to to uh help that person find its own writing but not uh not give any toolbox that uh solves the problem for for everybody so uh that uh and and then and then uh I I can see a problem that maybe maybe I think the publishing houses are now uh of course uh we're uh globally having uh economically quite different uh difficult times right now and that of course affects everything uh and it affects the publishing houses as well and I think they're under pressure right now because the uh of uh uh the book market sales uh and uh and the tendencies to to uh economical problems everywhere in our society so uh that affects them of course and I can uh what uh I what is really a bigger problem is that uh I I I can see maybe a lack of uh active uh work with uh some uh published published uh works as well so uh and that's that's really really

Craft Education And Reading Comprehension

Leticia Caminero 57:18

really kind of uh affecting literature as well if if there's not uh and it it uh in two ways um it uh it generates uh not all works but it it it might generate uh less work with uh debutants for example and they need work it's not uh I mean we can't as uh teachers uh creative writers writers teacher we we do we do do a good lot of work with uh debutants as well and those uh book uh book manuscripts that ends up as a debutant works but uh you really need a publisher to uh take care of the process when uh it uh a manuscript becomes a book so uh I uh I see that as a as a minor problem uh or as some kind of uh problem that uh we need to to to work with uh and and of course uh of course the uh reading as I said but so it's it's a craft that you learn by doing so you have to uh consume it you have to produce in order to be better at it yeah so how are you reframing the discussion of good literature for the next decade so that artistic risk and author incomes move together rather than apart yeah um and it's um it's really a minority question uh because it's always uh been a question for for us because we uh we have of course we have uh a good grant system in finland and we also have minority grants uh and those things have of course when you see uh when you uh look at our uh finland Swedish literature right now so uh I think that uh the grants the state grants of course but also the uh the uh private fundings uh that are especially uh for the minority literature has been really uh important for uh securing a literature that is uh not uh not only uh alive it's also in my opinion and i've uh in of course as a president and uh and things I've done before also I have been reading a lot of the uh uh literature uh this minority language literature and it's really good it's really like not everything of course not everything and uh you know I mean uh never be and every taste is uh is different but uh but it's really uh it's really a uh quality uh literature and uh and uh a lot of different genres with which is really surprising uh it's such a small uh small minority uh in a way but in another way there's uh a lot of different genres and a lot a lot of different different perspectives and uh and in a in a really democratic way there's a lot of uh voices as well uh represented in the literature within the literature uh not only minority voices uh of a sort but uh different geographical uh geographically uh from different places and and different socioeconomic backgrounds and uh and you have the uh have this uh thanks to the grant system in in in many ways uh I mean because uh as as you as you know uh if you belong to a minority uh you write uh maybe mainly mainly for the even if you as a writer um at least I'm writing for uh for for for the world not for my minority I want to be like uh in this bigger context but uh of course uh you need to know that you need to be able to read Swedish uh to read a Swedish uh writer uh and a Finland Swedish writer you need to know uh that that uh book exists uh to be able to read it and even in Sweden they do not uh necessarily know uh what's going on in our minority so uh as you can see the market is really small so uh the market's not going to feed us um so um so uh the good thing is that uh we have a a good grant system that uh we uh really should be be proud of and that make makes makes it possible to have uh a vivid literature that is uh is is is broad even if it's small and um and that's culturally I think it's it's uh because this minority is a language minority uh and uh literature is a language art so I think that's been uh been uh of importance uh for for the culture itself as well as for yeah so the the support of the grants is is really make uh makes a difference it does it does and this uh this is something I mean uh both that we're uh working on uh to uh to uh preserve but still uh you need to think of uh of new things new uh new ways to to to uh to make uh to to provide uh a healthy environment for both literature and the authors that are supposed to have time and and uh possibility uh to to write the literature to make the art uh so you have to have to um make it possible uh for for them as well and uh that's uh things that I think to has to to both uh to work in two ways as everything now in these times where everything is changing it has to be uh we have to uh preserve things but we have to renew things as as as well so that's an ongoing um I wouldn't say struggle it's an ongoing uh work yeah so um moving to um to festivals and how to get recognition has a small um um has a author from from a coming from a small community so

Grants Risk And Literary Diversity

Leticia Caminero 1:04:58

um what do you recommend um to go beyond um as an author to transcend beyond uh well i i think that i'm going to repeat myself uh all the time uh i'm uh and as a president uh i've been working working a lot with uh creating uh context as well uh for uh for the uh finland swedish uh authors because i think that when uh the authors uh what what an author experience and and and gain and where uh and all the perspectives an author meets that of course reflects uh in the work of the author and uh as i said before then i i i i think that uh colliding meeting and uh and well uh having uh impact from other cultures and other uh writers as well is of uh a great importance and even greater uh for every writer and even greater for a minority writer or I mean uh you're dependent of uh having something you of having a broader context because

Mikaela Taivassalo 1:06:29

uh we're in this uh kind of small room and uh sometimes it might be hard to breathe in that small room so you have you you need to have this uh broader context contents context uh and um and uh me me me meeting other uh authors meeting other literature literature is easy because you can uh you have uh you you have uh access to literature uh you can meet that's the fantastic thing about literature you can meet any culture if it's translated to your language uh or if you're able to read in another other language then you're able to meet other cultures even if you sit in your own small room so uh that's uh that's of course of big importance but I think that uh broadening uh our contexts uh that's good for for everyone changing perspectives that's what we do that's what what we do here now uh representing different uh contexts here in this uh in this discussion as well uh those are things that have been uh uh on on my mind all all uh all this time when I've been president and it's been really important to kind of bring that with me and try to to make uh common grounds for for uh for us uh and our colleagues both uh in finland and uh and uh uh abroad i think that's kind of my idea of uh of uh one of the importance with literature is is that literature doesn't have any borders we can move uh freely one uh around the only border we have is uh language border and we have uh translators uh those magicians that translates uh literature works so we can access them uh even if we can't speak the language it's written in so uh final question before we close today um future the future um we all have a magic ball we know exactly what's going to happen uh so if you could secure one structural change in Finland's literary economy within your current term as a president what would it be and what compromise would you have said to make uh to make it happen oh that's uh that's so hard uh but uh uh the hard part is of course the compromising uh because right now we're compromising everything uh that's more loss than gain uh if we're talking about the uh cultural uh politics uh right now but what i would uh like to not do myself but uh but do uh work uh for and um of course uh we want to succeed as well but uh with my with my fellow organizations uh is uh uh zero book taxes book taxes uh down to zero because uh i think we need something that uh that's good for for for all the uh literary field but um as we've been as we've been speaking of uh now uh everything from the author uh fair remuneration for the author and uh uh publishers uh publishing houses uh the uh that uh that that are able to work for for a quality literature as well as for uh genre literature and uh broader liter literature like broad spectrum uh the uh ecological thinking uh lit uh lit literature as an uh ecos ecosystem so uh uh that would be uh one thing that i would uh love to have uh pushed through uh one thing yeah uh that would be my main aim and now i have to is it my arm maybe what would i give in exchange it's okay you don't have to sell yourself not myself what would i uh give up oh that's so hard because i wouldn't like i think uh uh great there's not so much to give up uh anymore you have taken all of me or uh for any other um uh art uh or i i wouldn't uh like to may may maybe well my compromise would be like the uh bigger companies could give something to art is that a compromise no yeah yeah we can frame it like that it's okay it's an open discussion yeah it's an open discussion that's real tip typical yeah something but i want uh somebody else to to to compromise uh so i would uh i i i i promise i'm i i will be thinking of if there's anything that i could compromise uh with uh yeah perfect thank you so much micaela um i don't know if you know this but there's a extremely famous song in the latin world with your name yeah yeah super super famous and uh i i danced that song like a thousand times so you yeah i think i have heard it yeah yeah if you know anyone latin they will have told you for sure they would sing it to me yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah completely completely because it's it's a very it's a very lively song also so you when when i when i read your name it was imminent in my mind and now that i'm saying your name i was like okay i i have the song in my mind again so it's like uh that's the power of culture that's the power of culture really yeah so thank

Leticia Caminero 1:12:49

you so much for your time thank you for sharing uh your thoughts uh and your great work and yes um i i hope everything

Festivals Context And Translation

Leticia Caminero 1:12:58

turned out for the best and i know you're doing an amazing work and um i'm really uh privileged uh to to have you here uh today on a on an episode uh

Mikaela Taivassalo 1:13:08

i'm so thankful for being here as i said this uh communication and uh meetings are are like the most important things that you get from uh from literature and from uh being in this kind of international context thank you thank you and thank you also for your wonderful questions that have uh like a present to get questions uh and it uh helps you uh it prevents you falling into that route of uh thinking yeah yeah it it it uh it leads you

Announcer 1:13:51

thank you for listening to intangible the podcast of intangible law plain talk about intellectual property did you like what we talked today please share with your network do you want to learn more about intellectual property subscribe now on your favorite podcast player follow us on instagram facebook linkedin and twitter visit our website www.intangiblia.com copyright Leticia Caminero 2020 all rights reserved this podcast is provided for information purposes only