Sunflowers Bend but Rarely Break with Oksana Kukurudza

 We continue our theme of immigrant culture and assimilation this week.   Immigrants have family history and culture deeply rooted in their country of origin.   Our guest this week is Oksana Kukurudza whose parents were Ukrainian refugees.  She shares stories of the Ukrainian struggles past and present and growing up with immigrant parents and their struggles.  Listen in to hear how she has been affected by her history and how she is being intentional about how she is raising her daughter. 

https://sunflowersrarelybreak.com/
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Transcript

Serena:  ​​Hey everyone, I'm Serena. 

Tina:  And I'm Tina, and we are the Mental Health Mamas.

(MUSIC)

Serena:  Welcome to No Need to Explain. We are so glad you're here. 

Tina:  First, as always, a quick disclaimer.

Serena:  We come to not as mental health professionals or experts in the field, but rather as parents with lived experience who are on a mission to normalize the conversation around mental health. 

Tina:  If you or someone you love is experiencing a mental health crisis,

please seek professional support. You'll find a variety of resources in our show notes and on our website, noneedtoexplainpodcast.com . 

Tina:  A major part of why we started this podcast was to have a platform for what we love, which is the power of storytelling, and specifically storytelling that connects people. We've been inviting guests this season and self-disclosing stories that really help us all feel a little less lonely.

Serena:  And today we have a guest, and we have a few others that who have either come to this country as immigrants, some as refugees, or whose family history is on culture, is deeply rooted in their country of origin. Oksana Kukurudza is the daughter of Ukrainian refugees, is now the managing director of Accenture in New York in the U.S. She's written her story into anthologies, Going Against the Grain and Think Limitlessly, and is now writing a narrative nonfiction, Sunflowers Bend but Rarely Break. In it, she delves into the poignant stories of her family’s experiences during World War II and the Cold War era. Oksana explores the hardships faced by her mother, Sophia, and her father, Michaela, uncovering historical events often overlooked. With her captivating writing style, she invites readers to understand Ukrainian history and national identity. Oksana's upcoming book is a testament to the resilience and strength of the Ukrainian people. Oksana, welcome to the podcast. 

Oksana:  Thank you so much, Serena, for having me.

Serena:  So just to be clear, you were born in the U.S., but you and your siblings have been raised by parents who suffered traumatic, really kind of hard to wrap our heads around circumstances before coming to the U.S. So tell us a bit about that. 

Oksana:  Sure, happy to. So many people have information across the globe in the United States about events that happened in World War II. And one of the most dramatic events that all of us have heard about is the Holocaust. And the extermination of five, six million Jews, Roma, homosexuals, prisoners of war, others who, you know, were against

the Nazi government. What a lot of us don't know is that on top of that kind of extermination and concentration camps, that the Nazis also had this program of either enticing through propaganda or through outright kidnapping and deportation, they brought 12 million Eastern Europeans, either forcibly or willingly, to Nazi Germany, to work during war, to basically feed the war effort as farmers and agriculture or as laborers and factories or even in people's homes as, you know, cooks and cleaners and nannies. And they weren't paid. And they were effectively enticed, deported, kidnapped, came over, they were put through filtration camps. Many of them were even like auctioned off, you know, as slaves to industries, to individuals, to farmers, you know, whoever would pay the right price to the government. Their paperwork taken away, they were originally told, at least for the ones that willingly came over like my mother, that it would only be for six months, they would get great wages and everything would be great and they

could send money home and then go home, you know, with more money. And they weren't, they were stuck in these camps. And my parents have a little bit of a different story like my mother, came over willingly, but then went through these filtration camps and ended up in an agricultural camp. And I just found out recently because I uncovered some paperwork of hers. So I'm continually finding more information because she had told us that she worked at this agricultural camp

outside of Magdaburg, but it turns out she was actually in a city called Wolfburg.  And her employer is Volkswagen. I just found out which is amazing new information. But I always knew that she was kept in a camp that looks the way she described it, looked very similar to a

concentration camp. So it sounded very similar to what I experienced when I went through Auschwitz, Birkenau, when I traveled through Eastern Poland. And she, because she talks about, you know, the barracks and she talks about having the, you know, brickwood and walls around her and the barbed wire and the assess and the dogs and the guards and, you know, basically during the day working these 12 hour shifts of going out and working in the fields or in a greenhouse and then

being, you know, shuffled back into this internment camp, you know, where she was stuck, not getting paid, you know, saying, oh, there really wasn't any food to get, you know. And, you know, and living this right from November of 1941 until her liberation in April of 45 and my

father was forcibly deported in December of 41 and he ended up on a manner farm with like 40 to 50 other workers where he was working. And in an area, it was a very agricultural area. I can't even

think of the, you know, city that would be close to it. But what the Nazis did and, and why it's an important story is many people don't know that whilst the, you know, they had this, this race theory, right, where the Germans and Arians were on top and everybody knows that the

Jews in the Roma were at the bottom. But what most people don't know is the next rung up the ladder were the Slavs that were considered not for extermination, but considered slaves and were considered

you know, almost like scum of the earth and just to be used and abused by the Nazis and the Germans.  And so, you know, in my discovery of some of those things and then kind of watching the events happening in Ukraine with the most recent invasion of in February of 2022 and seeing some of those same experiences, you know, because I feel like the Russians are acting just like, just like Hitler and the Nazis did during World War II in terms of saying that Ukrainians are less than, you know,

or the Russian and they should be Russian and conquered, you know, they're stealing children, which is something that the Nazis did. They're putting people through these filtration camps, you know, checking their loyalty, you know, to the Russian state as they occupy areas. And, you know, there's, you know, bombs, civilian bombing happening all the time across the news in Ukraine.  That was something very similar that my parents' experience, my mom talks about a lot of bombing

that happened, you know, at the same time that she's, you know, dealing with slavery. And these events, you know, and then you have 6 million refugees, you know, sitting in Ukrainian refugees sitting in Europe and, you know, even after the war and after liberation, both my parents ended up in this, they call them displaced person camps or GDP camps all around Germany and Austria.  And I had found out that the Allies made this deal where they were forcibly deporting most of

the working class, right, the slave laborers that were left in Germany and liberated, forcibly deporting them back to Eastern Europe and back to the USSR many times against their will.  But luckily, both my parents were able to stay and they were over a million Eastern European

refugees left in Germany and Europe. And it took years for many of them to find homes. And my parents didn't finally find a real permanent home until they found a sponsor and they were able to immigrate to the United States in 1956. So they were basically displaced persons in Germany from 45, you know, all the way to ‘56. And you just see all that kind of trauma.  And then these little known events because, you know, I tell people about these 12 million people and most people have no idea about it.  

Serena:  Thank you for sharing all that, Oksana. I think it is super important information for people to hear.  And what we know to be true is that families are doing the best that they know how to do, given the circumstances they're given. And there was, I mean, we can hear from the story, we can imagine the level of trauma that your parents experienced. And I'm curious how that affected your upbringing. 

Oksana:  Sure. So it's funny, you know, I've really been going through this journey of finding myself over the years. And, you know, the older I get before the more clarity, right, that you obtain. And, you know, I've always wondered, you know, why do I have this self-confidence

problem? You know, why do I always think other people are better, smarter than I am? And I don't give myself enough credit. Or why am I always trying to make other people feel good, you know, and not always put myself first? Like, where do I get that from? And then of course you realize that that's where I was raised. Because that's not necessarily maybe my parents taught me some of that.  I mean, we all try to tell our children, you know, I've got a child now to be kind to other people

and to treat people the other, the way that you would want to be treated. But this was more than that. And it's not just from what my parents said, but it was the way they acted.  And I then, you know, because children do this, you mimic the way your parents act.

And I was the youngest of 12 children. So it was even like magnified for me because all of my older siblings acted the same way. And so we almost got programmed in this mindset of, you know, we, you know, we're not that great. You know, there's no need for us to have a lot of

self-confidence. And, you know, we should always help others and others are smarter, better than we are. And that's just not true. And I'm not saying I've got it all figured out when I still have those days. But when I start to get those feelings, you know, I realized that it's only up to me to kind of slap myself out of it. And to defend myself and to see that, you know, I am intelligent.  I'm smart. I'm accomplished. I've done a lot of things. You know, I've accomplished a lot of things. And I should, you know, I should be proud of that. And, you know, not that I shouldn't

think other people are smart or other people are good, but, you know, I'm smart too. And I have a lot to offer. And I'm good too. And I don't need to always put other people in front of me. 

Tina:  Yeah. And I think being raised by people who clearly were their survival really dependent on their obedience, right? Their deferential attitude toward others. You didn't question what happened. Whatever people told you to do, you had to do. And, you know, that is that I can imagine that really does affect how. 

Oksana:  And it changes who people become too, because when I went back, I lived in Ukraine in the mid 1990s. And I sat down with my side of the family that didn't go through that. So my aunt who stayed back in Ukraine and became, you know, stayed a part of the Soviet Union. And she would tell me stories about how my mother Sofia was her younger sister, the youngest and the family, how brave she was and how outgoing she was and how she would sneak out of that house to go to barn dances at night. And that was not the woman who raised me. I mean, maybe she was there deep inside. I mean, she did, as soon as the wall fell down and, well, that quite fell down. But Pedestroika and Glasenos happened in 1989. She didn't tell any of us and went off to Ukraine to see her sister. So I mean, there was definitely still some of

that in her. But she didn't show it a lot. And like, it was beaten out of her basically. I think by those traumatic events and, you know, the other thing too is, you know, there's definitely, you know, abuse there as well. I mean, my, my, when they came over to the US, it was a very, very traumatic for them to to adjust to a new country. And my father always had a drinking problem.  But the drinking, I think, got worse with the number of children they were having and just, you know, having to maintain two to three jobs. And I don't think he handled stress very well.  And so he did abuse her and abused my older brothers and sisters physically. And we all got some mental abuse. I just got the mental part of it. But I think, you know, between that, you know, experience in Germany and then, you know, the choice of husband and things,

you know, I think that just, you know, kind of beat my parents down quite a bit. And, you know, and it's natural to take it out on the people you love the most. And then, you know, you're now, I'm now, you know, 50 years old and I'm kind of working through all of that, you know, especially having, you know, a youngster of my own and making sure I don't pass on those same types of, I guess, reactions and feelings and, you know, ways of thinking about, you know, myself or the way that I treat others.

Tina:  Yeah, just a lot of thoughts swirling and, you know, it's our job as parents to protect our kids.  And it makes sense that the way that your mom was raised, even if she did have that adventurous side, that kind of side where she would explore and that she would let you know that that was not okay, that that was not okay because of the consequences she had to. Yeah, I was so interesting, so interesting. Anyway, let's shift a little. 

Oksana:  It's a lot to unpack.

Tina:  Oh my gosh, but it sounds like you writing all these books is part of that unpacking, which is a  beautiful thing, right? Absolutely. So let's shift a little bit and, you know, you are first generation American and I have Ukrainian roots myself, my grandmother's family and although

I am not, my parents are not, but my grandparents were first generation Americans.  So when we were in their presence, it was very clear that they had a culture that was our culture, right? And then we thankfully lived in a town where a lot of people lived who had, they were farmers and they had come from other places, but we had kind of this, you know, a foot in each world. We even had people sometimes say like, do you speak Ukrainian or do you speak Polish, which my

grandfather's family was from Poland? And truly there was their own language because they kind of melded the things together. So I felt like sometimes there were, you know, and I'm sure you can relate to the feet into world thing, right? You had this cultural, deep cultural thing in your home, and then you had to live in a world where I assume you went to school and, you know, in the American world, right? 

Oksana:  Yeah, no, absolutely. You hit the nail on the head and, you know, and it was definitely, I think, you know, harder for my older siblings because they grew up in the United States and they were born in Germany and they were completely considered displaced persons. They had no country of origin until they became naturalized citizens of the United States. And so for the first six of them, you know, they came over and, you know, in the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of discrimination against immigrants of Eastern European origin, I'll say.

And so my parents faced it. They faced it and my parents were very poor. And so there was, you know, some of that, you know, contextual discrimination that they had to deal with in school between, you know, having to learn English and kind of trying to adopt to becoming American and becoming part of that melting pot dream that we talk about. And I know that, you know, my parents would send

money back to the USSR. And so there was, you know, kind of just enough right to get by. And they had to, you know, much more than I did, you know, even live in the two worlds. But even me, as the youngest, you know, and probably most privileged of all of them being raised in the US in the 70s and 80s, there was still a lack of knowledge, even though the city of Rochester had a lot of immigrants. And there was a, you know, there was a, there is a thriving Ukrainian population

there. I went to a Catholic school where there were no other Ukrainians. So I was the only one.  And throughout my grammar school and high school education and in Roman Catholic school, you know, I always had to pronounce my name. I always had to describe my background. You know, there was always confusion of, you know, Ukraine doesn't, you know, Ukraine's not on a map.  Where is that? What is that? You know, and when I would describe it as part of the Soviet Union, then they would ask, oh, well, isn't that Russia or are you Russian? And I went through a lot of that until the, the wall came down. And so it was, you know, very much not just the, you know, being in both worlds because, you know, obviously at home, Ukrainian was spoken, even though for a lot of time, I didn't want to speak Ukrainian. I just spoke English. I still, you know, understood it quite well. And we had all the customs and the food and things like that. And then,

you know, when I was outside of the home, you know, I was trying to become very American, you know, and that was my, you know, that's really what I wanted to do. Even at the same time, I was still very defensive of my culture. And I would say it wasn't until I really got into college and became an early adult that, and I spent a little bit of time in Italy, and I think getting away from it all and kind of being somewhere outside of the United States really helped me on processing that I really need to be proud of my Ukrainian heritage. And it's okay to have a foot

in both worlds. Like it's okay to be European and to be American. I have this like kind of odd combination of the American optimism of you can get anything done. But then at the same time, I started to have this European pragmatism and stoicism that I gained from my Ukrainian

European side. And, you know, I've tried to make the best combination. I can of them. And I think that's what, you know, makes someone who grows up into cultures like that very unique and can bring kind of a unique perspective to society or to work. And therefore, you know, be, you know, bring something new and make a difference. 

Tina:  And you alluded to this a little bit earlier, I think Serena mentioned that you have a daughter and you are choosing to raise her in a very intentional way. So just say a little bit more about that if you could. 

Oksana:  Sure. So I decided to have a child on my own later in life. And I'm really glad I did that because I'm not sure if I would have made the best choices in partner anyway. So, so I decided to go it alone and, you know, get to the point where I felt comfortable financially as well as, you know, kind of in my own skin to have her.  And so I want to be very careful about how I act around her and not to maybe use the same kind

of language or act the same kind of way that my parents did around me or even my older siblings did around me. So, you know, be more defending of myself, you know, be kind to others but not, you know, not try to put others, you know, in front of me. So because it's not just what I teach or I'm going to teach all of those things, right? But what's even more important is that she sees me act in a way that I want her to act as she grows up. And it's my intention to try to break that cycle because I don't want her, you know, in grammar school or high school to be,

you know, and, you know, easily bullied, right? Or to feel like she's always the one compromising or giving things up. Like I want her to be able to compromise but I also want her to be, to be able to hold around, you know, and to take care of herself. And obviously I'm, you know,

careful about raising my voice with her. I mean, you can't help it once in a while you do it, right? Because you just get frustrated and, you know, it happens, you know, it's a toddler.  But I would never raise my hand to her. And thankfully, you know, all of my brothers and sisters are not violent people, which is that in itself is, you know, truly amazing. And I think that's a testament to my mother. 

Serena:  Yeah. So we mentioned your, your newest book, the book you're working on right now, Sunflower's Bend, but Rarely Break. And we would love for you to talk about this a little bit. And I think specifically around the meaning of the title, because it's really

powerful. 

Oksana:  Sure. So Sunflower's Bend, but Rarely Break definitely has a lot of symbolism to it.  And it's sort of multifaceted symbolism. So, you know, at the surface level, it's the national flower of Ukraine. But it's also through its seeds in Sunflower oil, it's the largest agricultural

export for Ukraine. So not only is it, it's national flower, but it's also an extremely key resource for them, you know, for for hard currency and for their economy. It's also a beautiful hardy, stoic, you know, stubborn flower that, you know, needs sunlight to grow and to reproduce.

And it will do whatever it can to get itself to the sun, you know, and bend as much as it needs to get to the sun, even on, you know, cloudy days. And that's how I see, you know, the Ukrainian people now, as we see them, you know, what they're doing and what they're fighting for in terms of fighting for against a larger aggressor. And I felt that way about my parents and their experience, you know, they survived this war because they bent, you know, and but they didn't break, like they never broke, like they were still strong people, you know, they weren't perfect, right, but they were still, you know, strong resilient people. And so I feel like the symbolism of sunflowers, bend but rarely break, explain my parents, they explain the country of Ukraine, and they explain me, you know, and all of what they are has been passed down into me. And I hope to my daughter as well. 

Tina:  That's awesome. I love how you describe the, I love the adjectives you used to describe the sunflower. I feel like maybe I have a little bit of sunflower in me too.  

Oksana:  You have Ukrainian in you. You have a sunflower in you!

Tina:  I do. I love that. So we have literally just scratched the surface of your story today and the story of your people. And I think I would encourage everyone to check it out.  And with all the experiences you have going on, all the unpacking that you're doing of your history

and your story. What do you do? And you have a two year old. What do you do to take good care of yourself?

Oksana:  Oh, I take all of my vacation. And I go away and I get away from work as much as I can.  So I made sure I'm a huge international traveler, global traveler, and I made sure that it three months old Sophia had a passport. I named my daughter after my mother. And she has already been to four countries, including Australia back in December, January of 2022, ‘23. And so that's one of the ways I do it is just taking the time to go and take a vacation and recharge. The other thing I do is I'm very careful about putting myself into work situations that are too stressful. And I used to do it to myself. But I've realized now that I need to manage what I can do. There's no problem with doing things that will stretch you. So doing stretch roles. But you also have to be mindful

of what is your capacity to be able to take on these things. Because I think more people can take on stress more than others. And I know I have a little bit of my father and me. So I just always have to manage, you know, doing things that are stretched, which is good, right? Because we all want to grow and learn and push ourselves. But also find that time to be mindful. And when we might have to take a step back. And I'm always, you know, kind of pressure testing that with myself. And that's how I manage, you know, my mental health is take the time off when you need it.  And then realize when, you know, you're getting into a situation where maybe you can spiral and get out of control and get out of that. Because I've been in that, you know, I've been in this

consulting world for 21 years. And you can be pushed to the edge, you know, for the edge. And it's really up to you to, you know, to say no and to, you know, create those limits and boundaries and pull yourself back. 

Tina:  Okay. So we have asked this question to people for four seasons. And I not to diminish any of the other answers, but literally that is an answer that is amazing.  

Serena:  I say, yeah, great advice. 

Tina:  A lot of people have to hear that advice.

Serena:  Yeah. Yeah. So for anybody who wants to hear more about your story or check out your books, how do people find you?

Oksana:  Great question. So please go to my book landing page at

www.sunflowersrarelybreak.com. I am also blogging on the blogging site called Medium. And I've been writing, I think I'm up to 16 articles now about things like what's happening in Ukraine, history of Ukraine, culture of Ukraine, things you would know about Ukraine, like Ukraine has statues for its writers and not for its politicians or its warriors, which is very unique. Like they venerate the writer. And I'm also blogging about the travel that I do. So things that, you know, aren't as deep and serious as the Ukraine conflict. And I'm also on Instagram at

Okukuritsa2. And I can also be found on LinkedIn.

Tina:   Awesome. Yeah. So we will include those links in our show notes. So please check those out. And we cannot thank you enough. This was a fascinating interview. And I'm so grateful that we found you. And I can imagine in this incredibly unsettled world, especially in that part of the world in the Ukraine, I can imagine that people have made a connection with you. And they feel a little less alone. 

Oksana:  No wiser words were spoken, because even just blogging on Medium, it's a global platform. And, you know, I've been connected

in with Ukrainians, you know, who are a writing, you know, through this, you know, through this war, as well as Americans who are in Ukraine writing through this war. And so it's been, it's been

quite a bonding experience to find people who can just connect, you know, on similar topics.

Serena:  Thank you, Oksana. Thanks for joining us today. 

Oksana:  Thanks for having me.

Serena:  And so podcast friends, we are as always grateful for all of you listening and supporting us.  You can help us out by visiting Apple Podcast. Leave a review while you're there. We have lots of

awesome reviews. You can check out. We'd love to have some more. It helps other people find the podcast.  And you will find more content on our website, noneedtoexplainpodcast.com. You'll find us on

the socials. And we love to hear your stories. We have a voicemail number as well as an email, and you'll find all that info in our show notes. You can leave us a message on that voicemail number,

share a bit of your story, or just call to say hi. 

Tina:  And this is your gentle reminder to take good care of yourself while you are also taking care of your people. 

Serena:  Thanks for listening. 

Tina:  Bye.