Do We Love Our Clients: A Conversation Between Therapists

Kellee and Abby are back from their holiday break! Join them for the Season 5 in another conversation, all about looooooove 💗. Their exploration is prompted by the question, “do we love our clients?” and, "must we?" Kellee and Abby muse about what it means to love, draw from some of Dr. Allan Schore's research, name the importance of therapist's doing their own parts work, and end with questions for listeners as they continue to do their own wondering. 

Topics Touched on:

Dr. Allan Schore: https://www.allanschore.com/books/right-brain-psychotherapy/ 

 Robyn Gobbel: https://robyngobbel.com/ 

 Bonnie Badenoch:  https://www.nurturingtheheart.com

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Hi, welcome to the Whole Therapist podcast. We're leaving out the theorizing and exploring this strange phenomenon of being a human and a therapist. I'm Kelly Licensed marriage and family therapist, working in private practice settings as a clinician and a clinical supervisor in the Denver Metro area. And I'm Abby. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and the owner of a group practice in the Denver Metro area. Kelly and I are both registered play therapists, supervisors, and EMDR certified. So we're both therapists, but this is not therapy and we're both supervisors, but this is not supervision. This podcast is purely for fun. So for any ethical concerns on your caseload, please refer to your state laws and licensing boards, and please remember to follow the whole therapist on Instagram, Facebook, and subscribe on your favorite podcast listening station. For more resources, blogs, and consultation opportunities, visit whole therapist institute.com. So come join our conversation while we explore the embodied experience of neuroscience and authenticity in the therapy room. Hi, welcome to the Whole Therapist podcast. I'm Kelly . And I'm Abby. We are excited to have you with us. We're not sure when this episode is going to air. Who know ? We say that because I am going on maternity leave. Um , but what that means is Abby and I will take a break from recording and in the next few months, even as we're not actively recording, the whole therapist still has our consultation group called Wonder With , which is the third Thursday of every month. Um, be on the lookout on social media for that. Um, and feel free to send us an email too. It's in the show notes if you have any questions about the group and what that means and looks like. I know it . It's capped to eight members Yeah . Or eight group participants. Yeah . There is a wait list if the wait list gets longer. I think Abby has considered maybe doing a second group. Yeah. It's been really fun, honestly, like a lot of gratitude to gather together and embody some of the concepts that we just talk to all of you about on here. And we might do a second group. Kelly might jump in on a group in the future. Who knows <laugh>. Yeah . I'm gonna rearrange my whole Yeah. My fantasy is to rearrange my whole practice when I return. I'll hold the hope with you <laugh>. Thank you. Um, today we are gonna talk about love and we certainly cannot cover all things love neurobiology or otherwise in 20 minutes. So we're just gonna touch on this topic and we might certainly come back to it another time. Um, but I was struck by a chapter in a book that I can share a little bit about. I was struck by this question of do we love our clients? I was struck by it when you asked me that. And must we , um, I'm reading Alan Shor's book called Right Brain Psychotherapy, and he has a chapter in here that says , it's called How Love Opens Creativity Play in the Arts. And I have cherished this chapter so very much as he puts right and left brain concepts around love. And it's really been convicting and curious as I think about clients, there are some I can undoubtedly say Yeah, I love them. And then there are others that I would pause and I've been wondering what what does that mean? So I'm just wondering what that word love brings up in you as you think about clients. And maybe we can be with that. Yeah. I think that when you asked me that before recording this, I was really taken back and some like guilty parts of me showed up because there are parts of me that love all of my clients. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And there is a part of me that loves some of my clients. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And there's a part of me that's like, oh, I don't know if, if I love this client. Um , and I think we're geared to be so kind of robotic, especially through grad school. Like we have to be the same with all of our clients. Yeah . Right. And I mean, that's just not true in human relationships. I even think as we're talking now, that love flows, right? So I may deeply love somebody for a season in my own personal relationships, and then that love shifts into something that feels different than maybe deep love. And that has to happen with our clients. I appreciate the idea of love being like a river that ebb and flows versus a light switch that's on or off. I think that gives me, like, I can feel my shoulders relaxing a lot more room when I think about clients. It feels like a kindness to also bring in this idea of ego states or parts work. Like my authentic grounded self love loves my clients and there are parts of me that absolutely do not love my clients. Yeah , of course not. Um, and I can be with that and wonder if the ways that we're talking about love might be synonymous with delight delighting in too. Yes. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Well , I was thinking even when you started to introduce the topic that people might be like, why are they talking about love? Isn't this like a therapy podcast? I think some people will be so like having an aversion to this. I want to rant. I won't <laugh> . I just want , it's like, I think love is all of it. Yeah. So, and there's a lot of left brain data that backs that up. Like it's not just some woo idea. I think love , um, sure. Talks about how it's a foundation for all positive emotion and experience is how we've internalized or not internalized mutual love. And so I really encourage you to look at his book because I can certainly can't do it justice, but I like this way that he talks about quiet love and excited love as it pertains to babies. Hmm . So I wanna share a little bit and then we could, could muse on how this comes up with clients. Quiet love is the first few months of life and it's when you see mamas holding their babies. So this is from attachment theory. We are all who we are only because of the relationships we're in. And when a mama's holding her baby and just gazing at the baby, the baby's gazing back. They're in this space of quiet love. It's downregulating , um, deeply present. Let me see if I can like, he says it really beautifully. Let me find it really fast. Alan Shore says that quiet love is characterized as a mutual dwelling of baby and mother, where one in one make, not two, but one. So this is, and , and truly babies don't know that they're even apart as a person from their mom for the first few months of life. Anyway. So this like quiet mutual dwelling is quiet love. And then on the other hand, there's this excited love that happens around like eight to 10 weeks. Um , and he shares that as thrilling excitement and intense interest. And there's this energetic potential. So that's when babies start to coup and ba and moms will look at them. And then you get the social smile and you see the mom's face light up and baby's face lights up. And we don't know where we're going next, but it's so fun. And this is the peekaboo as babies get older and those two things together. So excited love is upregulating in the nervous system. And those two pieces together create a mutual love. And he describes it as it makes a child feel that it is so good to have been born and it instills in the child the love for life, not merely the wish to remain alive. And as I think about our clients as like up and down regulating of sharing care or love for them, can I reflect back to my client? We are not their mother and clients are always putting us in the position of attachment figure. Yes. Always implicitly it's always happening. Um, how do I communicate with my being like, it is so good for you to have been born. I'm listening to you talk and the two people that are coming to mind for me are, are Bonnie Badnock and , and Robin Global . Yeah. Um, for two reasons with with Robin, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, she has said that if you have a client that's coming to you and it's hard before they come into your office, you need to find one thing that you want to delight in them about. Yes. So that when you show up and they see your face, that delight is there. And I think that's what you're speaking to and what Ellen Shore is talking about. And then we've also talked on the podcast about what Bonnie has shared about the importance of gazing , um, and how that creates safety. I'm just thinking about this quiet love and the gazing and how that creates safety for us to then be upregulated for the excited love. Like there's a reason neurobiologically quiet love would have to be first mm-Hmm . <affirmative> for weeks and weeks. Yeah . Otherwise it's do you see moms who , um, or like an uncle, I don't know, who comes into the picture and isn't attuned to a newborn and is like really in their face or trying to be excited and the baby is overwhelmed. Yes. They don't have that foundation of safety like you're talking about. Well , the excitement without that quiet love, I think can feel scattered. Erratic. Yes . Yep . Where if you have reflected Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> regulation and quietness Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> through your eyes, through your gaze. Yeah. And, and we can do that. And speaking of what we started with here with, there are parts of me that love my clients and there are parts of me that have a hard time doing that. It's the same thing where when you gaze into that client's eyes, whether they're an adult or not, you are gazing into a child part of them. An infant part of them . Yes . And if they didn't get that, just your gaze is healing them or flooding. Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Like both and Mm-Hmm . So we're always working at the edge of someone's capacity so that gaze is healing to them and how much can they take in? And that's where we get to attune. Like, I love how you've talked about, and I think it was Lisa Dion , um, the tolerable doses Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in therapy. And so with love, like I know I perceive myself to be a pretty warm , um, like mama kind of person, and it is so , um, offensive and not helpful to clients if I'm gonna flood them with warmth and care , uh, when they can't take all that in. Right. So then it's about me, or it's about my misattunement to what they can take in even babies. You will see, I can't remember how many seconds, Kelly , it was. I think you and I went to a training and someone quoted some , this is unhelpful. Someone quoted someone and they talked about there's a number of seconds that a baby can sustain eye contact, and then they will look away and then they'll come back. Mm . But like meeting, even in those like few seconds of moments, like a break, like I'm my own person again over here and I'm coming back to you now. The only thing I can think of is watching some of those like circle of security videos. Maybe that's it . The baby just like turns in as like Yeah. <laugh> and it's , it's them needing a break. But I don't remember them speaking specifically to that. Yeah . But I'm sure there's a number and that's like our clients too. So let me be with them and offer like this quiet mutual dwelling of a place. Like, oh, we're here together and then they need a break. They're gonna change the subject, they're gonna look away. We're titrating. I mean, we don't just keep like staring our clients in the face <laugh> . Can you imagine just like following their gaze around <laugh> , right ? Like Yes. Um, well , I mean , the other piece I think is , um, there's an art in silence. Hmm . Like, I think a lot of, and we've talked about in the podcast, but there is this piece of like, you know, are you able to sit in silence? There is an art to it. Like we're not gonna just sit in silence for how , I mean, that's really, at some point it becomes uncomfortable. I Yes . And it's not regulating anymore. Right. Yeah. It's so true. And, and are you more comfortable with the excited love Hmm . Than with mutual or with quiet love? Um, like I can think of some therapists who are far more comfortable, probably me too with like mobilized energy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, there's a deep intimacy to both. But I imagine quiet love might bring up really tender. If you weren't parented by someone who could just hold you and gaze at your sweet little face. It might be harder to take that in from other relationships and then offer it to our clients now. Yeah. I could see that. I would struggle with that more. Even if I've had clients that say something really meaningful or heartfelt to me. I, you know, reflecting back just in this moment, I can say thank you and , and sit for a moment and then wanna move into the excited love. Yeah. Yeah. I think most of us, I know you said you weren't going to go on a rant, but I think this might be, I mean, I don't know what you were thinking , but it might be connect . I want to hear your rant. Rant worthy. Go ahead. <laugh> . It's not totally a rant, but what I'm curious about is , um, as I have gone on maternity leave, I've had a couple clients , um, give me a book for the, the baby to come. And some of the kids have written in the books, or as clients have given gifts, like the children that I work with, like write cards and, and honestly, even outside this maternity leave, if I've had clients say goodbye, usually kids write cards of some kind and every kid says, I love you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . I, I don't know if I have a card where a kid hasn't wrote like, I love you. Yeah. And I get curious about how activated some therapists may get by that, or I think I've seen on social media posts like this kid wanted to, they said, I love you, and what do I say? Mm . Um, and that goes back to this fear of like, what's gonna happen if we just show up authentically? But what is the fear? What's actually the fear? If we imagine? 'cause I would so want to be able to say, I love you too. I think it's not being connected. Like Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . If you feel like the part of you that right then and there doesn't love them, you don't wanna say it. I think that's where that shows up and shouldn't Exactly. If it's not authentic, then that's, and it's dishonest and I would dare to say it's not loving maybe. Yeah. Um, I, I'm thinking , I'm thinking about like videos where , um, like attachment is all the thing on social media. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, people are always talking about if you heard whatever, you know what I mean? All these reels about avoidant and anxious or Yes . I don't know . Yes , yes , yes . But it's making me think about one of these reels where they like have phrases that this is not how you should say this clinically. Phrases that an avoidant would say or something. Mm . I have loving feelings for you. I have love for you. Um , I experience love towards you, but like, they can't say I love you. Right. Or the , that reflection back, oh, you said I love you. Yeah. Oh, thank you <laugh> . Like , yes . But if you could really sit with like, gazing at somebody and, and saying back to them, them like truly and authentically, like, I love you too. I think people get afraid of being grieved or it being misinterpreted somehow, or I don't know. I just , it has to be their own, like how co shares, 90% of what's happening is really about you. Yeah . And 10%, so 10% of that interaction is actually the child saying, I love you. And 90% of it is what happens inside of you. In the past when told I love you or what the word love lands, like, like I do wanna make room in this episode that love is complicated in all of us. None, none of us have wholly secure experiences growing up. There's always a bit of all of it. Yes. And mo and most of us would lean insecure in our upbringing. So that word love might be jarring to parts of you or fearful or confusing, unexpected. I think when an adult client says, I love you, that is a lot harder for me than a child client in the therapy space. So I've had women say like, I love you, I appreciate you. It is harder. I notice for me to, I don't always know I'm on the same page. Yeah. It's much easier for me to tell a kid I love you too . Yes . And they just like sit in your lap and <laugh> Yeah . Like yeah. They're so sweet with their snacks. And um, I do love what Henry Crystal shares. He says, just as white light contains all the colors of the spectrum, love encompasses all the feelings reflecting our living process. Hmm . I think as a reminder, put the word love or the phrase I love you out. It doesn't matter if you say it or you don't say it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> clients will know if you love them or you don't. Yeah. It's , it's just how, how we show up and it's the most pout from a brain-based and from a felt sense ex experience, it's the most powerful emotion the mind is capable of is love. And so I think it's why we're the most attuned to notice or not notice it as a client or a therapist. Like if you ever had a training where you're like, I don't think that trainer really likes me very much. Yes. <laugh> or a trainer, I feel really connected to that speaker and she might have her gaze towards me feels loving or inviting or a , a consultant or a supervisor I've had, I've known like, oh, like we just don't rub each other the right way. Um, I don't think that she loves me in the way that maybe she might love other people or he, you know , um, and I I think we could speak to that even with , um, our own supervis user concepts . Yes . You know, just, again, it goes back to we did a coffee and chat about like how our attachment categories show up and that's gonna impact the love. And from this, you not only must stay alive, it is good to have been born from a baby perspective. I think of our clients. Like, it's not just great that you kept your appointment and you're here and we're not wasting time. Um, it's that it is good to be together, to be with you. And so we can make that shift if we are able to access love towards clients. So it's a big question that we asked at the beginning and I'm , so we're asking it again, do you love your clients? And if, if you can just sit with that question, you don't have to have an answer, but just notice what arises in you as you ask yourself that question. Thanks for being with us.