Imposter Syndrome and Changing the Status Quo with Michelle Grant (Founder The Great Full) | Ep. 16

In this episode we explore Imposter Syndrome - understanding better what it actually is, the myths surrounding it, the systemic issues that can lead to it and what we can do individually, and collectively, to manage it.

At the moment, Imposter Syndrome holds back the very people we need to be leading change. It stands in the way of us shifting the status quo so that we can build a more sustainable, just and joyful world. So in this episode we tackle:

• What Imposter Syndrome actually is
• Who suffers from it, and the myths around this
• The systemic issues and environments that feed Imposter Syndrome
• Why Imposter Syndrome is a phenomenon and not an illness
• The research that shows you are far from alone if you experience it
• The impacts of Imposter Syndrome on us as individuals and on society
• How Imposter Syndrome gets in the way of us leading change, sharing our gifts and experience and shifting the status quo
• Why we need to work at both the systemic and individual level to actually tackle imposter syndrome
• Concrete tips for how to manage imposter thoughts when they arise for you
• Ways that we can collectively tackle the issue in our organizations and communities

Further Information:

Learn more about Be The Change and how to apply at http://www.thegreatfull.com/bethechange

HBR Article “Stop telling women they have imposter syndrome” by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey: https://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndrome and the follow up article “End Imposter Syndrome in your workplace” https://hbr.org/2021/07/end-imposter-syndrome-in-your-workplace

Dare to Lead podcast episode with the HBR article authors: https://brenebrown.com/podcast/imposter-syndrome/

Book by Valerie Young ‘Secret Thoughts of Successful Women’: https://impostorsyndrome.com/book/overview/

Hidden Brain podcast episode on self-doubt featuring an interview with imposter phenomenon researcher Dr. Kevin Cokley https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/the-psychology-of-self-doubt/

Transcript

The Great Full Podcast Season 2 Episode 16 Imposter Syndrome

"How do you, suffering from this imposter syndrome take steps to manage it so that  it doesn't jeopardize the value that we can offer to the world?"

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Great Full podcast. I'm your host Michelle Grant. And this is a place where we explore how we can build more sustainable lives communities and food systems. I often do episodes where I have conversations with inspiring changemakers.

Learning not only more about the challenges that trying to tackle and how they're doing. So, but also getting some insights into the leadership lessons they've learned along their journey. 

In the season, I'm also starting to offer some solo episodes like this one, where we dive deeper into topics 

The tend to come up When we decide we want to play a role in creating change and stop trying to step into that. 

So to get started today. Let me ask you this. In the course of your work and in trying to make an impact in the world around you. Have you ever had the thought “I actually have no idea what I'm doing and sooner or later, people are going to find out”? Have you maybe doubted your abilities and sometimes felt like a fraud at work. 

Have you repeatedly asked yourself, can I even do this? Can I live up to these expectations? Do I deserve to be here? Do I belong here? 

So, if you've ever grappled with these questions, felt held back by them in some way. You're not alone. And it's also why I wanted to pick this up in today's episode and explore what's behind it. Which is this concept of imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, as I prefer to call it. 

And I chose this topic for today's episode because it pretty much always comes up in the leadership trainings and in the different coachings that I do. And usually, it goes something like this. We're coming to the end of an intake discussion with a new coaching client. And I'll ask something like, is there anything else that would be helpful for me to know as we start this coaching process together? And the client usually sheepishly replies “Well, I think I might have imposter syndrome.” 

Kind of shameful confession is what it feels like. Almost like it's a disease that they have, and they don't really want to mention it, but they think they have to because it's relevant. 

And I hear this so often that I really wanted to pick this up as a topic in one of these solo episodes. So today we're going to dive into this imposter “syndrome” and I say syndrome with air quotes. So we're going to explore that term more. 

Explore who actually experiences this and try and understand a bit better, what we can do both individually and collectively. To try and tackle it and help ourselves learn how to dance with it. 

Most of all I hope today that you can realize that if you experienced imposter phenomenon, it's not your fault. You're not alone with it. And there are absolutely things that we can start working on immediately to help us find a new way to interact with this. 

 So, to get started. What is this imposter syndrome anyway?

And as I sat down to prepare this episode, I actually reached out to my community and asked if anybody would like to share their perspective on what they think imposter syndrome is. how they experience it. If and how it holds them back and what they would like to learn about it. 

And I got responses back from around the world from Argentina to Namibia, to Switzerland. People from really different backgrounds with really different lived experiences, but having a lot of similar perspectives in terms of how this, phenomenon is impacting them and their work, their ability to make an impact in the world. 

So here's a couple of snippets of things that people shared with me. 

The imposter syndrome is a feeling of not being enough of not being sufficient, not adequate, not deserving of. Position to that. I have mostly in the professional contexts, so rarely in the personal context. And, part of it is a conviction that even if I get positive feedback, something must be wrong.

And at some point they will realize, either colleagues or supervisors that I actually don't deserve to be there and that I am actually. Not an expert or I actually don't know these topics and just a feeling of inadequacy and. At the same time at an adding a lot of pressure to yourself to try and reach, standards that are probably not reachable, but in those situations you just don't see it.

For me, imposter syndrome is when someone is fully prepared, fully capable of delivering a service subject matter presentation, whatever it is, and, feels inadequate feels.

Nonetheless not good enough. but it's all part of a different, issue is not to do with lack of preparation of lack of capabilities is to do with uh, belief that, maybe they are not good enough. 

So, these are the things we're dealing with. When we talk about imposter syndrome. I've heard it defined as. When other people's views of your competence. Exceed your own confidence. Which is a nice, succinct way of saying it. Valerie young, who is a researcher who did her PhD on imposter syndrome. Defines it in the following way. 

Imposter syndrome is when you have a persistent belief and your lack of skills, intelligence, or competence. And you think that other people's praise and recognition is not deserved. You think that your achievements. Uh, normally due to chance or perhaps external factors, You doubt, your ability to repeat past successes and you often feel disconnected from your successes. And when something goes well, or you are successful, you tend to feel relief rather than joy. Relief that you went, found out. You got away with it this time. I think for me, it shows up, especially when I have to revise or go through my previous work or accomplishments or, articles that I've written. When I read, I always, get shocked. It's my work.  

So, imposter syndrome. Is that combination of things. It's not just about having self doubt. It's that self doubt combined with feeling like a fraud. Feeling like. Others perceive you to be more competent than you think that you actually are. 

And imposter syndrome often shows up for us in times of transition. So that might be stepping into a new role taking on a new challenge. Saying yes, to a high profile opportunity that comes your way. These are the times when impulsive thoughts tend to. Rear their ugly heads. 

But when it comes to defining this and to the term itself, I actually prefer the term imposter phenomenon. An impulse to phenomenon was the term that the researchers originally used when they defined this concept. And over time it's been. Changed into imposter syndrome. The problem I have with imposter syndrome is putting syndrome in. It makes it sound very clinical. It makes it sound like disease. It makes people feel like. 

It's something that they have and it's their fault in some way. And that all leads to everyone thinking it's their own individual problem, rather than us actually seeing it as a societal challenge. Related to some systemic issues, which we'll talk more about in the moment. There's actually nothing wrong with you. If you're suffering from it. 

It's not a disease. It's. Simply a phenomenon, which is very common and to tackle it, we need to have both empathy for ourselves and for others. And have a bigger picture of what's really going on.

So, who actually suffers from this imposter phenomenon? A lot of people believe that. Imposter phenomenon is something that primarily happens to women. Something that mostly women are experiencing. 

But research actually shows that's not at all the case. The psychologist, Gayle Matthews estimates that more than 70% of people experience impostor thoughts. At some point in their life and that's across gender, race and socioeconomic status. 

Now here's the thing. The first study that was done on imposter phenomenon was back in 1978. And that's actually when. The term was first coined and that study only included women. And so that was really the beginning of this story that impulse to phenomenon is something that infects or affects women. 

But actually research has shown that imposter thoughts are imposter phenomenon shows up as often for men as it does for women. Here's what's interesting though. The impact of imposter phenomenon is different on men than it is to women. Women have been shown to be more held back by imposter thoughts. 

And this might be because women are more likely to internalize the doubts and questioning of themselves, which comes along with this phenomenon 

And to ruminate on it and to have it impact their actions the activities they do or don't engage with. And research also shows that women experience more self-doubt than men. And here, I think it's really important because that's normally where the story stops that. Again, this is a problem of women that they have more self-doubt, and that's something that they need to overcome. 

But I think we need to ask the question, what leads to a situation in society. Where women routinely doubt themselves and their abilities more. What messages are we getting from society? That we need to question our competence more. Or that we are more in competent. And when you look at the research around that, it shows that women are more likely to be doubted by others and to have to work harder to prove themselves. So it's no wonder that. 

These doubts are then internalized more as well. 

Here's the interesting thing though. It's not only women who are more held back by imposter syndrome. If you represent. A historically disadvantaged social group. If you're an immigrant in a foreign land, or if you represent a minority, then you're more likely to experience imposter thoughts and be held back by them. 

And so here too, we need to look at the bigger systemic issues that are leading to this. And a wonderful place to start on that topic is with an article by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey in the Harvard business review last year. It's one of the most read articles in the history of the Harvard business review.

And the title of the article was “Stop telling women they have imposter syndrome”. And I'll pop a link to it down in the show notes so that you can download it and read it, which I would highly recommend to do. 

In this article, they explore the systemic issues at the intersection of race and gender. When it comes to imposter syndrome, saying, for example. When employees from marginalized backgrounds, try to hold themselves up to a standard that no one like them has met. And that they're often not expected to be able to meet. The pressure to Excel can become too much to bear. For women of color, for example. Universal feelings of doubt become magnified by chronic battles with systemic bias and racism. 

And when we look at these systemic aspects We start to see that actually these imposter feelings are understandable. When you've been socialized to see that the best way to get ahead. When everybody around you has a different lived experience, looks different to you. The best way is to try and conform and assimilate and maybe hide parts of you that you don't see. 

Fitting in with those who are in power Then it's understandable that you can feel like a fraud and doubt what you do bring to the table. 

And then when you see these things happening and hear someone talking about imposter syndrome, You start to think that, ah, this is a problem with me. I have these issues rather than. 

Appreciating the systemic issues that are leading to it. I think this is the really tragic part of this story, because. The very people who are more likely to have imposter thoughts and to be held back by them. Or the very people who have a different perspective to the status quo. Who have a different lived experience who have diverse ideas and. 

Gifts to share with the world and to contribute, to tackle these collective challenges that we're facing. And all of this means that the voices that we really need at the table of being the most held back. By imposter syndrome and that's becoming a barrier to a lot of people. Who need to be in leadership roles actually being that. 

And here's another interesting thing about who's impacted the most by imposter phenomenon. Actually certain places are known to breed imposter thoughts. And academia. Is a classic example. 

Academia is. Renowned for using complicated language and jargon to explain things, leaving people, to feel intellectually excluded. Even when the concepts that are being described. I don't actually that complicated. 

In academia, you're surrounded by people who are extremely smart. And that makes it easy to question your own intelligence in comparison to those around you. 

Especially given the fact that academia really only focuses on one type of intelligence and one way of learning. And if you rely on any other forms of intelligence or have any other ways of learning. Or any other forms of neurodiversity, then you immediately don't fit in with what is the status quo? And that leaves you questioning yourself. And if you really belong there, 

The academic environment is notorious for being really competitive. Where critiquing research is the norm. And that can really feel hostile and, uh, unwelcoming and can really feed these doubts of. Questioning your own competence and questioning. If you belong in questioning how people perceive you, especially if you have. 

A different background to the status quo that surrounds you. And let's be honest. The academic hierarchy is still largely populated by people who fit. Uh, description that Brené Brown once used as. Pale male and Yale. And for anybody that doesn't tick those boxes, Then it's completely understandable that imposter thoughts come up. 

And finally the academic environment has a lot of people in management roles and supervisor roles and teaching roles who haven't necessarily had a chance to. Be coached or trained in ways to. Manage people that's empowering to give feedback in a way that's encouraging. 

Rather than in ways that just feed more self-doubt, which is often the case. But it's not only academia. That's a breeding ground for imposter syndrome. 

Anywhere where there's systemic bias, a lack of diversity and inclusion. It is really easy to understand in these settings that anyone who has a different lived experience to those in the current leadership. Quickly feel like they don't belong. And these. Healthy normal self-doubts we have as humans combined with these. Fears of being a fraud and lead to people, really being held back by these imposter thoughts. 

So now we know. Imposter phenomenon is not something that's only experienced by women. It can be experienced by people across all race, gender, and socioeconomic groups. However It does tend to hold women and those from historically disadvantaged groups back more. And there are systemic reasons for that. 

And I know personally that coming to understand that imposter phenomenon, wasn't just something I was dealing with personally, but realizing that many people were experiencing it and that there was systemic reasons for it. Really helped me have a completely different relationship to those feelings when they came up. 

And actually, I first came across imposter phenomenon. About four or five years ago when I was starting to write a book, I was a. Working with a coach to try and overcome. What I thought was writer's block, but after our first session together, She actually gave me a book on imposter syndrome. 

Because as she was listening to me, describe what was coming up for me, what was getting in the way of me actually writing and sharing my voice. She could see the patterns of all of these. things that are associated with imposter phenomenon. And so when I read this book, I was just fascinated by this concept and started to dive into it a lot more. 

And of course seeing it come up so often in coaching clients. Also has just inspired me to kind of keep exploring ways that we can work with it. And the more that I learned about it, the more I could look back and see the places in my life where it had been holding me back or creating unnecessary suffering. 

For example, the time I got a new position. Which had quite a load of responsibility. And I was. Young, a woman and a foreigner. In the country taking it up. And I felt plagued by a lot of doubt about my capabilities. If the hiring committee had made the right decision, if I was going to live up to their expectations and in response to that, just worked myself to the bone, trying to. 

Prove that, you know, I could be capable And found myself, you know, Dressing in a way that I thought professional women need to be dressing. So that I would look the part. And all of these kinds of really energy draining behaviors, which were probably not at all necessary. And in hindsight, I can look back at and more objectively. See. It didn't actually make logical sense. 

But at the time, it really had an impact on how I was living and working and. What was going into me trying to make an impact. The more I learnt about it. I could also see that time when my team nominated me for a leadership board and I got into the finals and caught myself kind of quietly begging that I wouldn't win the award because I doubted. 

If I really. Was qualified to get it if I really deserved it. And if I did then. You know, wouldn't everybody see that actually I shouldn't have it at all. Again, objectively looking back. I see it differently, but 

At the time it actually held me back from sharing. More about the leadership practices. I was engaging with that. I'm actually passionate about seeing more of in the world. So, those are just a couple of examples.

And maybe you want to hit the pause button right now and just reflect in your own life. Where has imposter phenomenon shown up for you? How have you experienced it? 

And are there any ways that you see it holding you back at the moment? Holding you back from. Taking up roles that could be a good fit for you From making an impact in the way. You know, you can, or from shifting and changing the status quo in the way that we need to.

And this I think is the interesting part to start to think about. What impact is it having both individually and collectively. And this is some of the things that people in my community had to say about this. 

You spend too much time in your head thinking about it. So that's, what's not good. You're wasting mental energy on something that's preventing you from actually growing into a certain area or showing up. So yeah, it's a waste of energy. Complete.

I feel like it doesn't happen with other people. And when I've heard other people say that if I had a bit of imposter syndrome, I would think, no, I think you don't notice it so much in other people. And it does, it does sound like it's surprising when other people mentioned it. 

How does it show up? Well, it's very strong. the way he does show up with me, it paralyzes me. It makes me think that, I will forget everything that I won't be able to talk or to express myself properly or, or even that my, accent was going to get.

 so bad that I will be totally incapable of expressing myself clearly. I Stop myself from doing what I want or what I would like to offer to the world, because I constantly think that, I'm not good enough.

Sometimes they get so paralyzed, you know, after writing something, after sending to the papers that I don't want to read it like for a while, because I'm scared of, of what I'll find or the mistakes that I'll find after reading it or that I'll judge myself that it's not good enough  for me, it manifests as a feeling of stress and when I'm stressed, I'm just not.

Inspirational or inspiring. I can't contribute to the kind of change that I want to contribute to. Um, I don't have the energy, to contribute, so I think it stands between me and yeah. A more balanced life almost and a balanced life that will allow me to. get more people to make the world a more sustainable place.

And that's the thing. If we start with looking at ourselves, Basically imposter phenomenon, Leaves us feeling like crap. It's linked to increase likelihood of depression or anxiety. 

It can leave. You stuck in rumination and repeating thoughts, which are not helpful. And it just basically drains the limited energy that you probably have. 

As we talked about before, it can also hold us back. This doubts about ourselves. And if we can live up to others' expectation, sometimes leads us to stop taking on new challenges. And when these feelings come up, Often what we do to try and deal with them actually makes things worse and holds us back even more. 

One common thing that we typically do to try and manage imposter syndrome is to work ourselves to the bone. To prove ourselves and to try and get external validation. But the thing is, even if you get that positive feedback, you're often not really going to believe it anyway. So this behavior doesn't really help us in the end. 

 Another thing we might do is not really try our best. We doubt that we can do it any way and kind of tell us those well, if I don't try that hard, at least I have an excuse as to why it didn't work. 

And others point think it's just about me being incompetent. The last thing that a lot of us might do is either procrastinate. I just feel really paralyzed by these doubts and impulsive feelings and not actually be able to take action in the way that we want to.

So we might feel these impacts. On us self quite. Profoundly. But it doesn't end there because it also has a bigger impact on society. If we faced disadvantages. And a more likely to experience imposter phenomenon and be held back by it. 

Then our perspective is less likely. To be shared, We're less likely to. Take on new roles, take on new challenges or really step into our full potential as a leader because the action we take when we experience impostor phenomenon and the structural issues in the system around us and not really enabling us to step into our leadership potential 

And so basically all of his stops, diverse voices. Having space and it perpetuates the status quo. Which we all know needs to change. When we're talking about the impacts of imposter phenomenon, though, I do think it's important. To see that it's not all bad. 

Having a healthy amount of self-doubt. And checking the gap between our own views and the views and perspectives of others around us. Is in no way, a bad thing. Healthy amounts of doubting and respect for the opinion of others. I think that can all help us be more open and collaborative and can even be a catalyst for us to learn and grow. Together. 

And we know that the flip side of this, that arrogance and overconfidence. Are actually inversely related to leadership talent. that helps us realize that the goal isn't to eliminate. 

All of these. Feelings of self-doubt or being a fraud that. In small and healthy doses. It's not a terrible thing. So how then can we manage this in a way That feels healthy and sustainable and allows us to not be so held back by it. 

I think it's really important when we come to think about how to manage imposter syndrome. That we move away from just seeing it as a problem of the individual. Too. Actually, a systemic issue that we all need to tackle. And they highlight that really nicely in the Harvard business review article that I mentioned earlier. 

They say that we need to move away from putting the blame on individuals. And to realizing the systemic issues at play. It's not about fixing the person, but about the cultures and workplaces that breed it. What is it about our workplaces? That are reinforcing self doubt and lack of belonging for certain groups. 

How can we create cultures and what places that embrace and make space for diverse leadership styles. 

 I also think that we do need to explore how we, as individuals can work with what we've internalized in these systems. What are some approaches we can take to working with ourselves? So that we can also change our relationship to this experience. 

 this is really important because changing systems can feel overwhelming. And it takes time. And actually to engage with it. Effectively, we need to be able to work with our own internalization of, of this imposter phenomenon as well. in parallel to looking to change systems, we can start with. 

Where we are already empowered and that's with working with ourselves. So how can we support ourselves to start working? With this imposter phenomenon. While also trying to shift the system. 

Before we jump into some concrete practices to work with imposter phenomenon. I just wanted to quickly let you know about something that I run, where we dive into topics like this The program is called, be the change. And I absolutely love running it because I get to interact with amazing women from all around the world Who are really passionate about leading change and building a more sustainable world. But want to explore what their own role in that looks like in a way that's not in the impactful, but also fulfilling and joyful and actually sustainable. 

So be the change is a full month group coaching and leadership training program. 

For aspiring women leaders who are working in the fields of sustainability or food systems. Basically, people really passionate about making the world a better place. And over the four months together, we go on a journey to. Put a healthy foundation in place so that, you know, you can take care of yourself and show up to make your contribution from this place. 

We explore how we can bring others on board when we want to drive change. And. the tools and skills that we need for that like empathetic listing or managing difficult conversations. And then finally we look at What your calling actually is and how we can build the courage to step into it. 

Where's that sweet spot between what brings you alive and where there's a deep need in the world. And in general through the program, we are really celebrating and making space for new approaches to leading change. That embrace more feminine. Styles of leadership.  

And that support you to actually show up authentically so that you can. Do work that you love while also living a life that you love. If you joined the program, then you join a community of awesome women from all around the world. 

And also continue learning and exchanging with each other in the community. After the program ends. So, if this sounds like something you would love to be a part of and you feel like it's exactly what you need to start off the year. Applications and now open for the next round, which is going to get started in mid February. 

I've put a link in the show notes. So just click on that, if you would like to find out more and how to apply. Oh, you could also just Google The Great Full Be the Change, Feel free to reach out to me. If you have any questions. I'm always happy to chat with people who were thinking about joining the program. 

So let's get back to some tips to help us navigate this imposter phenomenon. 

Tip number one. As cheesy as it sounds is remind yourself of your awesomeness. 

I know the first time I did this, it felt awkward. And that's just an indicator that you probably need to do it more. The invitation to you is to write a list of accomplishments or things that you can be proud of. And do it from the perspective of your 14-year old self. So, there's no limit to this list. Just sit down, give yourself a certain amount of time and start thinking about all of the things that you can and get them down. 

And the reason that I suggested to it from the perspective of your 14 year old self is. One of the challenges with impostor phenomenon is actually knowing what's enough. We constantly. Lift the bar for ourselves. And once we achieve something, then we lift the bar higher and that feels like that's not attainable and so on and so forth. 

But if you would actually look back from the perspective of a younger version of you at everything that you have been able to do, Of all the things that you've managed that in the beginning, you didn't think you were going to be able to, you have quite a different perspective on things. 

And this list can be made up of anything it's anything. Where you face doubts, but even though those doubts were there, you were able to move forward, you were able to learn something new and you were able to try until you worked it out. This might be something small, like. Learning a new recipe when cooking felt really overwhelming, it might be getting a driver's license. 

Or it might be. Leading a huge project that had the impact that you were really hoping that it would. 

The important thing is this isn't just a once of activity. So once you've made the Douglass, turn it into a daily practice where every evening you spend just a few minutes. And jot down in your journal, something that you managed either during that day or during the week. That you did think he would be able to, to begin with? 

And what we're trying to do with this is start to help yourself work with doubts when they come up. So instead of them paralyzing you. You're able to see. Ah, Here are the doubts. Again, here are the feelings of being like a fraud. I've been here in the past and 

I've been able to learn and grow and move forward. 

Second tip. Is reframe your relationship to competence. I really love this tip because I think it's been the biggest game changer for me when it comes to working with imposter thoughts when they arise. 

And I got this practice from a book that I mentioned before by Valerie Young, called secret thoughts of successful women, which is actually all about imposter syndrome. 

And in that book, she outlines really well. How often. The suffering that we experience around in post to phenomenon is really linked to the relationship that we have with competence. If we look at the dictionary definition, competence is actually having the capacity to function. Or develop. In a particular way. 

The challenge here is that we've often come to internalize that particular way. Part of that definition. In a way that's not actually really healthy or realistic. And this might come from our upbringing from what we've seen. Muddled around us. From what we've got praised for or criticized for, An Optum we've developed this relationship to competence, which is not actually realistic or healthy. 

And we're also really unconscious about that. So starting to bring some more consciousness to what our relationship to competence is. And how it contributes to feelings of doubt or impulse during. That's really been a game changer for me. So that's why I want to share it with you now. And in this book that I mentioned, Valerie young actually profiles five different competence archetypes. 

These are just different ways that we frame competence. 

That a usually unrealistic. And that get an away when it comes to imposter phenomenon. let me start by just sharing these five different competence archetypes with you. And as I'm going through them, perhaps you want to make a note of which ones you think. Uh, relevant for you. In terms of what you think it means to be competent. 

The first archetype is the perfectionist. And a perfectionist believes that. You must deliver things perfectly. 100% of the time. And anything less than perfect is unacceptable.

Often perfectionist. Tinker and tweak and. Optimize things for a long time and don't share or launch anything. Before it's impeccable. And perfectionist, when they have these standards with themselves, they often project them onto others. And that can often mean being disappointed with the work of others, having difficulty delegating, because it leaves you feeling frustrated and disappointed. 

So for those who have this perfectionist view of what it means to be competent. It can really help to reframe that. And understand that competence is much more about making progress About learning and growing. About being able to collaborate with others 

About forming connections necessary to do that. 

The second competence archetype is the natural genius. And natural geniuses believe that being competent is about having some inherent intelligence or ability. And they believe that success should be effortless. They think that. They should be able to complete everything with ease and also speed. Even when that thing is completely new. 

And they feel that when they can't, that's an indicator that they're not intelligent or capable enough and their imposter alarm goes off. 

So if you frame competence like the natural genius, then it's really important to start reframing it around effort being important Understanding that we can actually learn and grow at any age. None of us have a fixed ability. Uh, or a fixed intelligence. 

We know human beings can increase their capacity for complexity. Their ability to do things throughout their entire life. And so. Making a mistake or struggling is not an indicator of any inherent lack inside of you. It's just an indicator that this is something that you still need to learn. And with the right support and the right environment, then that's possible.

The third competence archetype is the expert. And this is one that's pretty prolific, especially for anybody who spent time in academia. The expert believes that being competent is basically knowing everything there is to know about a particular topic. They think that they should be able to understand and remember all the information that comes their way. 

And that they have to have all. And I mean all the qualifications in a field before they feel competent to speak or act or share their opinion at all. 

Experts might read a job description. And if they don't tick every single one of the boxes and have a lot of experience in all of the areas necessary, they'll immediately disqualify themselves and not apply. 

The challenge with the expert archetype is that when you actually are an expert, You're even less likely to see yourself as one. And probably anyone listening that has a PhD can relate to this, the more and deeper you dig into a topic, the more you realize you don't know. And so it's a really difficult cycle to be in. If you have this expert. 

Mindset, because you basically can never achieve. The status that you think is necessary to be able to contribute to things. 

And so experts often don't attempt things that they probably could do because they don't think they're expert enough. There's always another course to take a training, to do a book, to rate. Or some sort of article. To integrate before they can actually see anything. And I was listening to an interesting interview with Kevin Coakley. 

Who is a researcher on imposter phenomenon. And he talked about the irony of the fact that. this is the focus of his research. He really is an expert in it. But he has a lot of trouble accepting that he's an expert on the topic. And he's fully aware of the irony of feeling like an imposter while researching impostor phenomenon. 

So, anybody who has this expert competence, archetype reframing it in a way. Where competence 

Does not require you to know everything where you can be comfortable not having all the answers. Where you can trust what you do actually know. And trust in the intentions with which you're showing up to do something. 

When you can realize that there's actually no end to knowledge. And so it's unrealistic for you to have that as the end goal. And. 

Helping yourself to understand that not knowing something is not a weakness, it's actually. An opportunity to connect with others who do know it and perhaps collaborate together. 

The fourth archetype is the rugged individualist 

And these are people who believe that true competence is about being able to do it all on your own. And that you really shouldn't need help. If you need help, then that's a sign of being incompetent. And the challenge with this one is it leads to people, overworking themselves and never asking for support. 

So rugged individualists can be helped by refraining competence more. Around the understanding that it isn't knowing and doing it all yourself, it's about identifying the resources you need and asking for them to get things done. And here resources can be time, equipment, other people funds spaces. All kinds of other things. 

The final competence. Archetype is the super person. And these are people who believe that they need to do multiple roles. Masterfully. At work at home and anywhere else. So it's not just about how well they're doing things, but about how many things they do. They believe that? Well, if I were really competent, I would be able to do it all. I would be able to be. 

A perfect mother. The perfect boss, the perfect. Salsa dancer, the perfect violin player, the perfect recycler. I don't know. What, what it is, but whatever role you're playing, that you can do it all simultaneously and perfectly. And this is particularly prevalent for women due to these cultural expectations. 

Around juggling work and motherhood. Along with like the limited social support structures. One would actually need to be able to do that. Like affordable childcare. Or reasonable school hours, all of those things that we still don't have. 

And so this competence archetype can be a particularly debilitating for people needing to juggle multiple roles. Especially people doing so to just make ends meet. It can be completely crippling To expect that being competent as being able to do all of those things perfectly. 

And so for anybody that has a super person, confidence, archetype, Reframing it. So that you can see that you can still be competent. And say no. That you can still be competent and delegate, and that actually being competent needs rest, and being able to ask for support. That can be really helpful as well. 

So actually the hurdle is different archetypes. Which one do you think you have? 

The perfectionist, the natural genius. The expert. The rugged individualist. The super person. Or perhaps some delightful combination of many of them, which I know was definitely the case for me. When I looked at this, I could see that. The perfectionist and the expert where two narratives that were really strong for me around. How I determined if I was competent or not. so I found myself doubting my competence whenever I didn't do something 100% perfectly, or whenever I didn't know the answers to all of the things. And so. Taking this challenge on and reframing what competence meant to me. 

I came up with the following statement. Competence is trying my best. Within healthy boundaries and learning something along the way. 

Now you can probably agree. That's a way more realistic way to frame competence than what I had been doing in the past. It puts the emphasis on learning. It reminds me to try my best. But it also reminds myself what's enough so that I can keep some healthy boundaries. And when things don't work out or maybe they don't go how I expect them to. 

I can always ask myself, well, did I try my best? Within my boundaries until I learn something. And if I can say yes to those things, then I. Can accept that. I was competent and I don't get stuck in this loop of questioning my own competence. 

And if I answer no to any of that, then I have some clear areas to look at. Well, next time, could I prepare more? Could I understand the context better or the needs of others better? Could I set that up boundaries? Could I be more open to what I can learn from the mistakes that I've. Perceived to have made here. 

And basically all of these competence resets are just helping us to move our focus away from performance. And more to things like. Enjoying the process. 

To move our focus away from holding. Knowledge already to. Actually be more interested in what we're learning and how we're learning. To move away from putting pressure on ourselves to look good. Too. Focusing on if we're trying our best and how we're showing up.

The next tip is flip your perspective. So I know for me in times when I've been kind of paralyzed by. Self doubt if I can perform how well does they're expecting me to. I'm kind of caught up in my own story a lot. I've often at that point lost perspective of. What others around me need. And I've also lost perspective of what's the bigger picture of what I'm actually trying to do here. 

Because normally it's work that somehow related to having an impact or creating a shift or making a change in some way. And so in those moments, what can be really helpful is to just step back and ask ourselves. 

What's actually more important to me here. Then my own self doubt. Who am I actually trying to serve? And what do they need in this moment? 

And I know for example, when I'm teaching or facilitating or. Giving a keynote presentation. This can be incredibly helpful because it takes my fixation away from my own anxiety or concerns. And. He puts it firmly on the audience and. Asks me to. To shift my perspective there. And to what they actually need. And that often helps me. 

Come back to the bigger picture of what's going on and get out of this, um, internal rumination that we can get stuck in. 

 The last tip when it comes to working with ourselves is to just simply become more aware. Of when these imposter thoughts are showing up for us. And having some little exercises that we can do in that moment. To give ourselves a bit of a different perspective. 

 the first step in. Creating changes or he's becoming aware of it. So just start to notice when you have these feelings of self doubt. Or feeling like a fraud or an imposter. And simply see, when are they showing up? How am I feeling when that's happening? 

What emotions are coming up, what thoughts are coming up? How do I feel in my body? 

And with time, you'll start to. Be able to notice it in real time, like, ah, Here at imposter thoughts. This is what they feel like here, they are showing up again. And to simply observe them as if you're kind of. Sitting on your own shoulder and looking at what's going on more objectively. This helps us do something that's called self distancing. 

And it helps us to sit more in the seat of an objective observer and that. Means we're less paralyzed. Or absorbed by these thoughts and sensations when they come up. 

Once you become aware of how they are showing up for you. You could develop a little practice for yourself. For example, if you notice that. When I'm really ruminating on. Imposter thoughts. My stomach gets really tight and my chest gets really tight. And so in that moment, 

I'm going to stand up and shake things out a little bit in my body and take a few nice long, deep breaths. Or I'm going to open the window and look up to the sky and take a few nice, big, deep breaths. And remind myself. what quality or value is really important for me right now in terms of how I show up. And what would that feel like in my body? 

There are endless practices. You could design here, but anything that helps you reconnect with your body, reconnect with your breath. No matter how small it is. Can be really effective at helping you create some distance from these thoughts that can otherwise paralyze us. 

 So these are all examples of small things that we can do that can sometimes have a really big impact on how we navigate impostor phenomenon. When we see it showing up in our lives. And although they're small practices, they can really go a long way to helping us not be so held back from it. But as I talked about before, we can't just end with working on imposter syndrome for ourselves, 

Because it's not just us, that suffering from it. It's actually a systemic issue. And so. I just wanted to share a few thoughts on that as well. Around how we can create some biggest shifts within our organizations to get more to the root of imposter phenomenon. So if you're listening to this and you're a manager or a leader can really be helpful to be transparent about these feelings with your team. If you're experiencing them. 

So really creating an open space for everybody to talk about. If and how they experienced impostor phenomenon. And what you can collectively do to support each other. You can also look at the bigger conditions in your organization or in your team. That might be triggering imposter thoughts in the people that you work with. 

You can ask yourself, what am I potentially doing? That's contributing to this dynamic. And you can come together. And create space. 

 to ask, how can we create a culture where people feel safe to take off their armor? To be vulnerable to discuss topics like imposter phenomenon and what needs to change. 

And I think imposter phenomenon is a really great indicator in the sense that if there are really high levels of this in an organization, It's really a sign that it's time for logic changes for a shift in the organization. 

And that really means entering into a change process where there's space to genuinely listen to people's experiences with empathy. And to co-create ways to move forward, moving from just the individual all the way through to the organizational level. 

So I keep mentioning this HBR article. which tackles this topic, but they actually wrote a really great follow-up piece, which was about what we can do in our organizations to collectively tackle this issue. And they say that leaders must create a culture for women and people of color. That addresses systemic bias and racism 

Only by doing so can we reduce the experiences that culminate in so-called imposter syndrome? And my employees from marginalized communities. Or at the very least help those employees channel healthy self-doubt into positive motivation. Which is best fostered within a supportive work culture. 

And linked to that then is really widening. The definition of leadership and the words we use to describe leaders. And this is something that we explore in, in the, be the change program, because I think it's so important for. Us to shape for ourselves what relationship we have to the wood leadership and what we want it to mean for us solves if we're to step into it. 

So this episode ended up being a little bit longer than I intended, but I hope that it's helped you to see that. 

You don't need to feel alone if you're experiencing imposter phenomenon. You might feel like it's something very personal that you have to deal with all alone, but it's absolutely not true. You are not alone with these thoughts. And we won't overcome it on our own 'cause it's really linked to some systemic issues. 

And we need to tackle this collectively because it's holding back the very people we need to lead change at the moment, the very people who are going to change and challenge the status quo, which we know is not sustainable at the moment. 

We need to face imposter phenomenon so that people. Who have historically not had a seat at the table. Now do, and that these diverse perspectives and knowledge and experience are actually integrated building a more sustainable world 

Needs new and different forms of leadership. And we're only going to see that if we can overcome things like imposter syndrome, Or else we're never going to be able to change the status quo. So I hope this episode. Gave you some food for thought. I hope it gave you some. Small. Practical tips you can get started with. 

And some bigger questions too. That you can now start discussing with people in your team, with your friends, with your colleagues. 

Because the first step is. Getting rid of the stigma and the shame around this topic and realizing that it's something so many people grapple with And it's collectively holding us back from building a more ethical, sustainable. And even joyful future on this planet.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the grateful podcast. If you found it useful, please share it with a friend who you think could also use some support to explore imposter phenomenon. If there are any topics or challenges you're facing 

In your quest to lead sustainable change, please drop me an email at podcast. At the grateful.com And we'll try and get your questions answered on a future episode.