Inspired Soles
Inspired Soles is a podcast that fuels your passion for running and helps you achieve peak performance with every stride. Host Carolyn Coffin talks with industry experts, coaches, Olympians and everyday runners to educate and inspire you to take your running to the next level.
Inspired Soles
116. Diane Palmason | Canadian Women’s Running Pioneer
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Today we’ve chosen to re-air our episode with one of the great pioneers of Canadian women’s running, Diane Palmason. Sadly, Diane passed away over the Thanksgiving weekend in Courtenay BC and we feel so fortunate to have had this delightful conversation with her back in July 2021.
Diane recalls how she discovered her love of running at a Sunday school picnic when she was just seven years old. By 12 she was recruited to train with the Mercury Athletic Club, a women’s only track club coached by the legendary 1928 Olympian Myrtle Cook. Diane’s career dates back to before women were allowed to run anything longer than 220 yards in competition, but in 1954 at the age of 16 she proudly represented Canada at the British Empire and Commonwealth Games in Vancouver BC. This was the same competition where both Roger Bannister and John Landy ran under 4-minutes for the mile in the same race, so Diane even got to witness the “miracle mile.”
With no more opportunities to pursue, Diane retired from running at the age of 17 and carried on with her life. She went to university, became a teacher, married and had four children. Over 20 years went by before she burst back onto the scene, inspired by Eleanor Thomas’ win at the inaugural National Capital Marathon in 1975. Since then Diane has broken Canadian records in every age group from W40-W70 and at every distance from 100m to 80k. In 2003 Diane broke seven Canadian records from 100m to the marathon all within five months, some of which were also world records.
This conversation is a history lesson delivered through amazing storytelling. We owe Diane and the female runners of her time a debt of gratitude for spearheading a revolution and changing the commonly held beliefs about what women are capable of, particularly into their masters years.
Resources we discussed in the episode:
- Margaret Webb's book, Older Faster Stronger, where Diane is featured.
- Roger Bannister and John Landy's "miracle mile"
- Jim Peters marathon collapse
- Kathrine Switzer’s book, Marathon Woman
- Age grading calculator
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And I just looked at her and thought, that woman has run 26 miles. I was told I couldn't run any further than halfway around the track. She did that, I'm gonna do that. And at that point I had my consciousness raised and got very much involved.
SPEAKER_00That was Diane Palmison, and this is episode 116 of the Inspired Souls Podcast. Hi, I'm Carolyn, and I'm a roadrunner.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Kim and I'm a trail runner. Welcome to our podcast, where we bring the communities of trail and roadrunning together and explore the parallels between running and life.
SPEAKER_00Today we've decided to re-air this episode with one of the great pioneers of Canadian women's running, Diane Palmiston. Sadly, Diane passed away over the Thanksgiving weekend in Courtney, British Columbia, and Kim and I both feel so fortunate to have had this delightful conversation with her back in July of 2021. Diane recalls how she discovered her love of running at a Sunday school picnic when she was just seven years old. By 12, she was recruited to train with the Mercury Athletic Club, a women's only track club coached by the legendary 1928 Olympian Myrtle Cook. Diane's career dates back to before women were allowed to run anything longer than 220 yards in competition. But in 1954, at the age of 16, she proudly represented Canada at the British Empire and Commonwealth Games in Vancouver, BC. This was the same competition where both Roger Bannister and John Landy ran under four minutes for the mile in the same race. So Diane even got to witness the miracle mile. With no more opportunities to pursue, Diane retired from running at the age of 17 and carried on with her life. She went to university, became a teacher, married, and had four children. Over 20 years went by before she burst back onto the scene, inspired by Eleanor Thomas's win at the inaugural National Capitol Marathon in 1975. Since then, Diane has broken Canadian records in every age group, from women's 40 to 70, and at every distance from 100 meters to 80K. In 2003, Diane broke seven Canadian records from 100 meters to the marathon, all within five months, some of which were also world records. This conversation is a history lesson delivered through amazing storytelling. We owe Diane and the female runners of her time a debt of gratitude for spearheading a revolution and changing the commonly held beliefs about what women are capable of, particularly into their master's years. So without further delay, please enjoy our conversation with the late, great Diane Palmison. Diane Palmison, it is a huge honor to be speaking with you today. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us and welcome to Inspired Souls.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you for that. And um I'm I'm a little abashed to think that you will use the word honored, but um it's fun. I look forward to that.
SPEAKER_00Well, we hope to have a very fun and informative chat with you today. You came onto our radar when I believe it was episode 26. We interviewed Rosalind Smith from the Comox Valley Roadrunners, and she mentioned you a few times throughout that episode, and you were featured in the book, Older, Faster, Stronger. So I immediately picked up that book and read it and was just, you know, amazed getting all this huge education on uh on kind of the pioneers of the women's running movement, which of course you are you are there. And so um we want to talk about all of that today. Your career dates back to before women were even allowed to run anything longer than 220 yards in competition on the North American continent. And I think a lot of our listeners may not be familiar with this history and kind of just how far we've come, especially since the 1960s. So we can't wait to dig into all of this with you. Of course, Kim and I both used to live in Comox. Oh, yeah. In and around the Comox Valley where you currently are. And uh, Kim, is it true that you even treated Diane at one point?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, when when we started seeing this name Diane Palmison cross our radar, I was thinking, my goodness, I think I've I've worked with Diane in Comox. And sure enough, I had no idea the greatness that was the woman that I was treating at the time, but I had the pleasure of meeting you when you first moved to Comox. And here we are, you know, over a decade later.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a few years later. Um, and there is a little bit of a story around all of that too. When I first arrived in Comox in in 2008, um I was you know, I I did I did have a history by that time, and I knew that I did. I had done quite a bit and was known, but um that was I I was happy to stay quite incognito. That's why I just arrived, and here I'm just a runner, and uh so I could be forgiven. Oh absolutely, but I'll tell you, I'll tell you what happened. Um I don't well, but I am going to join the Comox Valley Roadrunners. So um let's see, they meet on Tuesday night, and uh so I went over to the track and um you know introductions. Any anybody new here? I raise my hands, what's your name? Diane. Fine, okay. Um somebody says, What's your last name? And I said, Um Palmison. And the coach at the time said, You're Diane. Uh-oh, the secret's out. And actually, a funny part about that was that he was quite concerned because he could see I was older, and he looked down at my shoes, and I had always been a great and still am uh a fan of minimal shoes, just the very least that I can have on my feet. And so he looked down and I had on an old pair of new balances, which I just loved, and he saw them. He thought, uh oh, what have we got here? Look at this old woman with these ancient shoes.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's funny. That's funny. Well, let's um rewind the clock now and uh and go way back to the beginning. Can you tell us sort of about your upbringing and maybe some of your earliest running memories?
SPEAKER_02Well, um I I wrote a little story. I I do a little bit of running writing on the side. I wrote a little story at one point about being taller than the average girl of my age and loving to run. And we went the Sunday school picnic in Calgary when I was six or seven years old, I guess. And here they were setting it up that they were gonna have races, and I could run. And um here you start here in the grass and end up there with the finish line, and can I do it? Yes, you can, because everybody. And so I ran with the seven-year-olds and and I won. Oh, what fun, I'll go back. And I got an orange, which was a big deal in the in the in 1945. Um so go back and run again. Oh, with the eight-year-old. Yes, can oh, oh, I won again. Oh, that's fun, another orange. Then back for the nine-year-olds, can I still run? Of course you can. Well, by this time I was being left behind. But that didn't I I ended up with almost half a dozen oranges by the end. And just l loving the fact that I could start and run as fast as I could and just for the fun of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and so I knew then that I somewhere in there I knew I was born to run. And did lots of running and but just for fun, uh, until I got to uh Montreal and high school and on the high school track team, and at 12, I guess, qualified to run in the city championships, which is a very big deal. And uh I won both the 75 yards, this was in the 50s, the 75 uh yards and the broad jump, as we called it then. Yeah, and and the 50, there was nothing longer than that. But because I won three events, the reporter who was there, whose name was Myrtle Cook, and that is a name from women's athletic history in Canada, just huge. She was a member of the Canadian women's track team for the 1928 Olympics. And the story about that is just that's a whole other podcast sometime. So here she was, uh covering the event for the Montreal Star, big paper. And so she asked if she could take my picture. And so, fine, which she did, and you've seen that photo somewhere. It's a great photo. Well, what happened was she published that picture on the front page of the sports sections, the Montreal Star. And I went to my high school class and instant fame. And here I was, this grade eight, you know, bottom of the pile kind of thing in the high school, until you were on the front page of that. All of a sudden I had status. So, well, this running is really good. I'll stay with it. And so I joined Myrtle's uh club, which was called the Mercury Athletic Club, and it was a women's only track club, if you can imagine, in the 50s. Um made a point of that, and so all my other running friends, and we trained uh for on an old cinder track, of course, and ran as long as as far as we were allowed to run, which for me as a 14-15-year-old was only a hundred yards. If you were you couldn't run 220 yards, as it was, until you were 16, uh, which I I finally got to be 16. I think even then they were not allowed to at in Quebec. But at internationally, uh women were running 220 yards. So I tried out for the um the Commonwealth Games team in in Vancouver in 1954, and did make the team and ran the 220 as it was. Yeah, and um I ran in the same heat with Marjorie Jackson Nelson. Marjorie Jackson, Australian, was the world record holder at that time. And as a 16-year-old, I was just blown away. And literally, I did make it into the semifinals, but not into the finals. I did run the fastest, run the fastest 220 I ever ran. Oh, I know the other part of that was I would train with all the kids, uh, boys and girls, and I loved to run with the boys. And I knew that I could run 400, 800, I could run a mile with the boys and stay with them. And this hundred and yards, two hundred and twenty yards, um, I just would just did not have the talent for it. And I went to Queens and there was no women's track and uh at Queens in in 1955, and so that was it.
SPEAKER_00I've always wanted to dig into this part of it. Like at that time when you were 12 years old, 14, 16, and they're saying, okay, you're not allowed to do anything. Well, I guess by the time you were 16, you're allowed to do the 220. But yeah, when you were competing in 1952, you weren't allowed to do the 220 yards. So do you remember the reasons or the rationale that you were given at that time for the discrepancy between because you're training with with the men and you're hanging with them in in workouts, right? And you're like, I know I can go farther. Um, what were you told about that? What was the reason?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, that was the that was the mid-50s, and that was after the Second World War, everybody gets go back into the kitchen and be good girls, and and we just did not have there was no sense of protesting. Wait a minute, this isn't fair. It didn't come up at at that stage. In fact, it didn't come up for me uh until years later when I looked it back at track, at what was happening in the track, and I thought, my God, here it is, 1975, 76, and women are still not running any further than 220 yards in international competition. And at that point, I then I had my consciousness raised hugely and got very much involved with um, well, with Catherine Switzer and the whole push to um yeah of the women's marathon into the Olympics.
SPEAKER_00But back back when you were 14 years old, do you ever remember saying, like, this isn't fair, this isn't right, of course. Like, did you push back against those rules or did you just kind of accept that that's the way that it was?
SPEAKER_02We were told, and here's the big joke that we laughed about many years later, we were told that, oh well, girls, we're delicate and we must be careful. We don't want to, we don't want to uh endanger our uh reproductive capacity. Yeah. So um, you know, and laughing about what they think that our uterus is gonna fall out in the track or something like that.
SPEAKER_01Never mind that reproducing is the least delicate thing ever. It takes a pretty durable woman to birth a child. Anyways.
SPEAKER_00And Diane, I think in my research, I read I read an article where you said, okay, if that's the rationale, then why are the men allowed to do hurdles? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00I love it. I love that feistiness. That's great.
SPEAKER_02That was until later. You know, where it was, you know, we wore um saddle shoes and bobby socks and went off to university and did what girls were expected to do, which was to eventually after I went to McGill to um find my first husband and marry and go off to northern Quebec. And of course it was it was I was ab I did nothing athletic at all. I mean, I just it it well, I had four kids, which is fairly athletic as you just as you just commented, but um the the running thing kind of well, that's not quite it did come up again because I I knew that um after the kids were after the third one was born, that I just well I had put on weight. I've just got to do something and get myself moving. I don't feel good. So that was 1968, and that was the year that Ken Cooper's Aerobics was published. Right. And that book came across that little booklet came and said, Oh, here it says if you could do so-and-so, however far you could run in 12 minutes, I think, and that will tell you whether you're fit. Oh, that's interesting. So I went out in a local track and so I said, Well, I can just run along and and and see, and I found out, oh, I can run pretty far in 12 minutes. But then then I was pregnant again, until that was the end of that revival, um, and didn't really get back to it to it again until we moved to Ottawa. And here, and you mentioned this story, Caroline. You've I think it's been written in several places. I wanted to run, and I had tried, but after four kids, I had real back problems. So I ended up having a spinal fusion on January the 1st of 1975. And um but still I thought, well, okay. I spoke to the orthopedic surgeon in uh in June of that year after the you know the fusion had pretty much set. I said, now I I'd like to run and do some running. I'd like to get fit again. And he said, Oh well, you can walk and you can swim, but you'll never run. So with that encouragement, I totally defied. And um my by that time my my older son was um becoming very competitive as a 400-meter hurdler. So I went with him to his his um track club in Ottawa and went up to a coach and said, Um, I'd like to join in. I well no, I thought I didn't say that. I'd love you know, I'd like to to become in somehow I introduce myself. And he said, Oh, have you got a daughter that wants to run? And I said, No, I want to run. Oh, um, okay. And I did start running on the track uh with a different coach with another club who was he was he was wonderful, he was very welcoming, Bill Arnold. And so I did did some do some racing on the track, but that spring they held the first National Capitol Marathon, 1975, and by that time I was still recovering from my spinal fusion, and I opened the paper, and there was a picture of Elner Thomas, and there she was looking strong, and she won the first National Capital women's uh marathon. And I just looked at her, I thought that woman has run 26 miles. I was told I couldn't run any further than halfway around the track, and I just told her, okay, she did that, I'm gonna do that. And but so I started on the track, which is what I was familiar with. I didn't know about roadrunning at that time because it didn't exist. Right. Yeah, how would you know about it? And and there was no runner's world being published at that time, and but I I thought, well, I maybe I can do that next year. But it it got to be October and it was snow in Ottawa, and I forget, well, forget it. I I did love cross-country skiing. So I I was fairly I was active as m well, mother of four kids and and a pair of cross-country skis. So but finally when the snow was melting, I thought, okay, um, now it's March. I wonder when that marathon is going to be. And I looked it up and uh, oh, it's in May. Fine. I'll phone, I'll phone Bill Arnold and say, I want to run a marathon. And he said, Well, which marathon? And I said, Well, the National Capital Marathon. And he said, Well, that's in six weeks. I said, Yes.
SPEAKER_00Diane, I'm I'm seeing a theme emerge. Like your doctor says to you, you know, you've had a spinal fusion, you're not going to be able to run. You're like, okay, we'll see about that. And now this this guy's saying, Oh, the the race is in six weeks. I don't think you can do that. And you're like, okay, well, we'll see about that. Is that a theme that comes up a lot in your life?
SPEAKER_02Well, actually, it shifts over to a different area in that that man was Bill Arnold, was his name. And not only did he, I said, yes, he was so supportive. He said, Well, okay, have you done any running? And I said, Well, no, but I'm doing some cross-country skiing. Okay, well, here's what you do. And so he outlined a six-week training program for me to be able to. I was all I want to do is finish. So he said, Okay, and he was totally supportive. You can do that, this is fine. Um by the way, I'm 37 or whatever, 38 by then. Um, but but that wasn't a factor for him either. He had seen me running on the track the previous summer and and knew that I knew how to pick up my feet, sort of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. He knew you'd come from a running uh running background and liked to run and and could run.
SPEAKER_02So I did follow the six-week program and found at the end that I could um go for a long time at uh nine minutes to the mile. And I did a two weeks out, I did a 20-mile or a I don't know how long it took me, but I knew that I was comfortable at nine minutes to the mile. So I entered in the National Capital Marathon. And speaking of inspiration, I'm by myself, I drove up to the parking lot at Carlton University, which is where the start line was. Oh, I don't know what I'm doing. I better go home. And I was ready to leave, and a little Volkswagen comes up, parked right next to me, and out comes an older couple. The woman could have been my aunt. And she had a number pinned on her vest, and I looked at her and I said, Are you running a marathon? And she said, This will be my fifth. So, okay, Palmerson, just get yourself one of the night and roll in the end. And later on, I have to fill in that that uh that woman's name. She was, you know, in the Canadian Masters Roadrunning and you know, at a as a the Hall of Fame in that older age. This was in Toronto, and Toronto had already had a number of marathons by that time, and and so uh Toronto was a way ahead of Ottawa, I guess. Right. Anyway, so as I said, I knew at nine minutes to the mile for a long time. And I said, okay, I'll start out nine minutes to the mile. And in those days, maybe 500 people on the line. If you're gonna run at nine minutes to the mile, you're at the back. Right. Because only good trained runners actually gonna do this marathon. But I stayed with my and pretty soon by about halfway, I was picking up all the people who had left me behind at the start. And so I and ended up at the finish line and at 354. Oh wow, good job. It was nine minutes to the mile. Yeah, you're you're good at pacing. Well, I can't take full credit for that. In those days, you could have a cyclist beside you. My younger son, no, my older one, was out on the bike from about 18, 19 miles on for a little while along the Ottawa River Parkway. And he was timing me. He said, Mom, you just picked up the pace, slow down. And so I said, All right, all right, all right. And so he was very much by that time I was not paying attention to you know losing it overall, getting tired. And so he was on it to make sure that I stayed on my pace, which I did. And then at the crossed the finish line, and I thought, well, okay, it's not so bad. I was sitting on the grass, Eleanor Thomas comes up, and she she was looking for me because I had phoned her the week before and said, I don't know what to wear, what do I do? She was so fine with me, and she said, I'll look for you at the finish line. She had one again, of course. And she came up to me and said, Well, how was that? And I said, Well, you know, it was okay. I in fact, I probably didn't do it the way I should. She said, What do you mean? Well, I think I could have run faster. And she said, Well, do you want to run another one? I said, Yes, I think I can. And she said, Well, if you had pushed and run into trouble and and had to stop or whatever, you wouldn't want to run again. So it was fine to do your first marathon, very controlled.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And the next time I ran, uh, which was that October at the Niagara um Skylon Marathon, they called it. It was Buffalo, New York to Niagara Falls. It was wonderful. And I ran 324.
SPEAKER_00Oh, just just a little half an hour improvement.
SPEAKER_02I think I'll go a little harder this time.
SPEAKER_01Diane, I have a question just to paint the picture of the era of the day here. So you were doing this at a race, but I believe I've read that, you know, there were times prior to this, you know, in the 50s and 60s, where you would, you know, almost have to sneak out to run, like for a run after dark. And if you saw a car passing, you'd stop. So no one would see you running on the streets. What was it like to train? Maybe just in that six weeks prior to your first, but then after that in the 70s, were you able to freely run? Like were women ostracized, for lack of a better word, for road running and training in in that day and age?
SPEAKER_02Not in not in the 70s, no.
SPEAKER_01Not in the 70s, okay.
SPEAKER_02Back in and it wasn't so much that I was ostracized, it was just you didn't do it. And you didn't have running shoes. And I I finally had a I bought a you know old tracksuit and I had a a standard poodle. And uh I would say, okay, all the four kids are in bed. Well, I'll go out and you know, seven or eight at night and walk, walk with muff, and if no one is looking, we'll pick it up and we'll run a little faster for a bit. But if a car came by, oh no, no, no, I'm just out here walking my dog.
SPEAKER_00And I I think that's the part that is just so hard for us to grasp right now. Yeah, yeah, and and if I'm being totally honest, it was a little over a year ago that I was running along listening to a podcast. I've told this story before, but it was a podcast interviewer. She was interviewing Catherine Switzer. Oh, right. And Catherine Switzer was talking about this whole era. And I was like, oh my gosh, Catherine Switzer is about my mom's age. You know, like look at how much change has happened just in this one generation where I have never ever in my life gone out for a run and thought it was weird, uh unusual, that I needed to stop when somebody was watching. Like things have changed and things have progressed so, so far in just this one generation. So I think it is really important. Thanks, Kim, for highlighting that story because it's true. Like, we don't realize how much progress there's been.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I had two counts against me, if you will, because not only was I um female, but I was 37, 38 years old and had four kids.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And what what did I think I was doing? In fact, I questioned myself, really, am I too old to to do this? And that was when I uh Evelyn Saul was it. Evelyn. No, I'll come back to you with that name of that woman. She was the one who showed me I'm older than you. And actually, she was quite a bit slower too, but bless her heart, she was wonderful. Uh and to show me that you know carry on. You can it age doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a factor. And the other part of that was that the National Capital Runners Association at that time, all the men and the women totally resupported. Wow, you can do that. Come and you know, you you ran a half, come you ran a marathon, come and and and run a half, join us for a 10K. And so encouraging, so supportive. It was just from there on, it was it was not a problem at all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, circling back to your coach, was it that was like, Yes, I'll write you this six-week marathon training program. Like it sounded like he was very encouraging too, because there must have been part of you that's like, Can I really do this? Is this really possible? But he was so encouraging, and again, that was a theme throughout Catherine Switzer's book. Yes. Like, it was not the men we had to convince, it was actually women.
SPEAKER_02Actually, it was men, but it was the old men. It was the old men running the amateur athletic associations, which were in charge and said, This is the event. In fact, when I wanted to run on the on the Commonwealth Games, try out for the Commonwealth Games team, um, at at the even then at 16, the distance was not allowed to me, except that my co my coach at the time, Myrtle Cook, spoke up and said, She's competing for an international competition. You have to let her re you know, it's not your rules for Quebec or even Canada, it's the international, and there's no age limit in the in back in 1954. And so I ran my first 220 yards in the Quebec trials. It was the first 220 I ever ran, and I won it, and so off to Vancouver for the trials, and ran my second ever 220 uh to get on the Canadian team. So it was not as if I was exactly trained and ready to do that. You were gifted, yeah. Yeah, I I had some I had some things going for me. I was tall and strong and healthy, and I have long legs and uh and I love to do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, goes a long way. Well, s actually on that 1954, it was the it was called the British Empi Empire Games back then. It's now we know it is.
SPEAKER_02It was C E and C J. It was both British Empire and Commonwealth Games. Oh, okay. And so that that's why in Vancouver it was called Commonwealth Stadium. Um the famous stadium where in August of 1954 the Miracle Mile was running.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's what I wanted to ask you about. You watched it, right?
SPEAKER_02Oh well that it was amazing to be there, and there were far more boys, men, on the 54 team because women's we were so restricted. We didn't do this, we didn't do that, um, we didn't have any of the long distances at all, didn't have any of the strength. Um well you I think the women women, yeah, we did have a she could do the shot put and the discus, I think. But anyway, fewer women, but we were quite a close group, and uh went to the track on that Saturday, August 6th, I think, 1954, all excited because um it was going to be uh Roger Bannister, who had just broken the the four-minute mile in May, and then um John Landy. John Landy, thank you, uh, had run uh almost as fast and and very competitive, and so it was very exciting. And so I was there uh on the very not up a bit from the finish line to watch that race, and it was totally inspirational. If I ever wanted to run a distance, I wanted to run the mile at that day. I thought, oh, that is just a wonderful distance. I'd love to do it. The interesting thing that was that was also the afternoon that Jim Peters came into the stadium collapsing in the marathon, and it was oh, it was an awful thing to to view because he was it was they were running the marathon at in the afternoon on August in Vancouver, and the heat was just killing, and it almost killed him. He was way ahead of his competitors onto the track, but waving and weaving around, and the British team was saying, you know, keep him going, and someone else says, No, stop him. Oh, but he's winning. Never mind, he's dying. And they took him off the track. And the whole stadium was the change of the atmosphere from the excitement of the mile to the tragedy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02But that's oh yeah, the marathon did finish. And actually, a Canadian um r runner, speaking of knowing Canada's um track history, um was was third rich person, uh, was third. And so never mind what those Landy and Bannister were doing. Here comes a Canadian.
SPEAKER_00And did he go under four minutes as well, or was it was it just Bannister and Landing?
SPEAKER_02No, but he did break the Canadian record with just over four minutes.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so just sorry to interrupt. I I actually have happen to know we have a lot of listeners of this podcast who aren't runners that just find everybody's stories fascinating. My mother is one of them. And she's probably wondering what you know, what the heck was the significance of the four-minute mile? So let's just summarize what the significance, sorry, of the of the miracle mile was. It was the first time that two runners had broken the four-minute barrier, correct?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah, but it was it was May the 6th of 1954 that Bannister broke the four-minute mile. Uh that was such a um huge coverage of it, and it caught the world the world's attention at that time. And then to think that he would be meeting this Australian who was that there was great competition, and there was another, there was a can an American, West Santee, and he was very close as well. And another um, a very famous Finnish runner was very close. So the whole track and field world at that time was focused on can they do it? And and then so Bannister did it and said, okay, now who's best? And the race itself was classic, yeah, because Landy took the lead and was quite far ahead going around for the first time, and Bannister closed it up a little bit the second, closer still of coming up to the bell lap. And there was a classic photo. In fact, there was a statue. There's a statue in Vancouver of that of that moment because what it was, it just as they're coming around the bend onto the up the finishing straight, Landy looked over his left shoulder as Bannister passed him on the right. And I get excited even now.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Oh my goodness, how exciting to be there. Do you think you realized at that time the significance of it? You probably did.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I'm I'm I'm I'm sure I realized how I I did don't think I had very much the feeling, I did not have a feeling, why can't I compete in the mile? That just didn't come up then. There, this is what they did, and I I think, oh, I can do that, I can run a mile. But it it was just there was not a feminist uh approach at all in the 50s. That just not in Canada, and certainly not in Quebec, you know. You just yeah, yeah, you you couldn't go, you couldn't have bare shoulders going downtown in in in Montreal in in the 50s, you know. You just didn't, it was so controlled by the Catholic Church, I guess, among other things.
SPEAKER_00Well, on that note, I think that you eventually raced a mile because I'm gonna tell you a little fun story. Okay. On the anniversary of Bannister, so May 6th or 4th or whatever of this year. My brother coaches a club back in Ontario, and he, you know, sometimes includes me still, because I used to belong to that club, but uh he said, Okay, here's the assignment. Everybody is gonna go out and run your fastest mile and see if you can beat some of the record holders in the mile. And so they're all listed, all the age groups uh right on up, and uh you were listed as the female 65, I think, record holder. You may still hold it in 619.
SPEAKER_02I had a whole bunch of them for a while, but um that's to put it mildly, yes. I I had them certainly uh we I didn't really started running on the track until I was in my 50s uh and found out that I could go back and run those shorter distances as well. So I did have the Canadian 60 plus in the mile, and then actually for a while, the 65 plus that I had was a world record.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I I took a look at all the records and I was like, okay, I cannot beat the like I can't beat the one in my own age category for sure. But I said, okay, I'm gonna try to go out and beat Diane Palmison's 619 that she ran when she was 65. Yeah, right. And so that was just a that's just a fun little anecdote. And then I said, and then maybe I'll interview her on the podcast someday. So that's it. So tell me, how did you do? I was six minutes. Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02You are a six-minute mile. Good for you. Yeah, yeah. So that's amazing.
SPEAKER_00I don't know that I'll be able to do that in uh 23 years though.
SPEAKER_01I I don't know about that. So I have a question for you. You know, you've held and do still hold a many, many um records. Um, and actually some of those have been broken over the years. In fact, we have a lovely picture of you and Rosalind Smith, one of our former guests, standing together after she broke your um women's 65 to 69 marathon record in 2014. And um Carla Del Grande has said that you've been very gracious when she broke records of yours. So since there are very there are few people in the position of holding as many records as you, talk to us about what it's like when one of your records falls.
SPEAKER_02Um well, the records were nice and and but it was more the particular races that I ran and won. So, yes, Carla f did break my 65 plus world record for the 400, but she could not take away from me the memory I had of the day that I ran that. That was 2003, and I was at the um US Masters Track and Field Championships, and I knew I was fit. I had done um and I never had a coach, I just did it, you know, until I was coaching myself, and then it was kind of fun to do the workouts with the people that I was coaching with, and but I never did have m the keep people that I was coaching in Denver and in Bellingham. I never had them do a workout that I hadn't done ahead of time so that I knew what it felt like and what to expect from them. So I was more I was my own coach, I guess. Um, and I knew I had trained well for the for that track meet in in uh in in 2003, and the first event was the 400. And uh I was so nervous. I'll never forget oh I wrote a story about that one as well. The story says, well, it's only 400 meters, but uh tremendously nervous for it, um but so keyed up, and in the place where they hold you before you go out on the track, everybody was in there and you're putting on your spikes and getting ready to go. And I overheard a conversation and someone saying, Oh, well, this American woman, um, oh, she's gonna be running the 400. Oh, she's you know, she's great. So, well, I think the that Canadian Diane Paulison is here, she's pretty good, she's pretty oh, she's pretty good, but no, uh she doesn't have a chance. And that was just okay, now I'm gonna show you.
SPEAKER_03There it is again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right, and I'll never forget that race because um I just was well, sometimes they talk about being in the zone, and I was just like, okay, I'm out here and I'm very quickly out in front by myself and I'm fine. And I remember uh another Ottawa, no Vancouver runner saying, What's she doing? She's already at the 220. What's she doing? I ran way faster than I had run, had no idea, but it just came. And so I'm glad that Carla and Carla, who's has a long history of racing on the track with so many records herself, and bless her heart, very sweet, um, and always very kind in giving me credit for having been a master's runner out in front of her and setting standards that she could go after. So no, it's very very fine relationship with Car with Carla. Um, but yet she broke that record, but uh she can't take away the memory of that race. It was just, and then and then the same thing happened the next day with the 800. So that that particular track meet, I broke the world record in the 400 and the 800. And a few weeks before, I had broken the world record in the 1500 and the mile. So within about four or five weeks, I guess, I had broken four world records. And that was pretty good.
SPEAKER_01Of course it is, and you know, you'll always have your memories, like you just said there, no matter what happens with all those records are broken now.
SPEAKER_02Actually, the one that stayed longest was the 800. It hung in for a while until an American broke it, maybe a well, maybe two years ago, I guess. And I I saw it in the paper, but so what?
SPEAKER_00Um Do you believe that the records are made to be broken? Is there like part of you that enjoys seeing the women coming up behind you?
SPEAKER_02Um not so much that it's it's it it's known, you know, time goes on and events change and the competition changes and uh opportunities change and records do get broken. Some of them taking longer than others. And in 1954, a woman named Um Sylvia Ruger broke the Canadian open marathon record. I think she did it in the trials for the Olympics, and that same year, that fall, I broke the 45 plus um Canadian marathon record. Um I don't think it was a world record that that but it was it was it was my best, my PR, um at 246 when I was 46. And that record lasted for 25 years. And Sylvia's record from the same year, I I connected with Sylvia a few times through the years. I'm sad to know that she that she's no longer with us. But um she and I had these records that went on and on and on, and nobody touched them for decades. That was kind of fun. I forget the name of the woman who broke the 45 plus. She was full time in the in the 80s. Um I was worked full time, I worked for Sport Canada and and and had four kids. So to do the training um was done around things. I was never full time until I was started coaching. I could put more time into my training in my when I was 60. So right.
SPEAKER_00Well, you're starting to talk about some of your absolutely incredible range, right? You have all these um records on the track, but then you've also got this 246 marathon PB. And I think I've read that you've even done all the way up to an 80K. Is that right? Wow. So that is that is highly unusual, that kind of range, because uh we all know that the training that's required for you know the 200 meters is very different from the training that would be required for an ultra marathon.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, what well I must say that 80k was uh I think maybe 1979 and 1980, and I was I had no interest in going any longer than 26 miles. But um someone invited me to this lovely event, all expenses paid to come down and and run well it was 50 miles, it was uh and and so I did. My son on his bicycle was very crucial with that story because it was a small race, went four times around a lake in uh southern Quebec, and because it was quite rural and you could not be in participate in that unless you had a a a cyclist with you, because you were off by yourself sometime on the other side of the lake. So I said, okay, Craig, it's your birthday, come along and and and cycle for 50 miles with me, which he did um very obligingly. All his expenses were paid too. And it was actually on his on his birthday, I remember that. Maybe it was his 18th birthday. Um around and around the lake we go, and by the third time around, okay, gotta go around again. Well, here we go. By that time I was well beyond the marathon distance. And there was hilly right at the end. So here's Craig on his bicycle beside me, and I've I've just about had it. I'm done. Mum, um, can you go a little faster? Shut up. Because by that time his butt was beginning to hurt.
SPEAKER_01He was ready to be done too. He was ready to be done. On that note, like overall, what did your children think about your running career? And did any of them get into athletics as well?
SPEAKER_02They're all very gifted and and athletic and in different ways. They all ran with me on the track. I have run a race of one distance or another with all four of the kids.
SPEAKER_00That's great. Your children must be so proud of you. And I think I even saw a picture when you were inducted into the Canadian Masters Athletics Hall of Fame in 2010. Did your son attend that with you? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, Eric ran Eric, that was Craig rather, who had been, of course, a member of the Canadian track team himself and so knew some of the people around. And he read the citation, which uh was very sweet.
SPEAKER_00That must have meant a lot. I mean, getting the award in the first place and then having your son in attendance with you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So lots of good um, lots of good things came to me through all those years and years of of running and coaching. When I got to Colorado, um, I had already certified as a as a coach, a middle long-distance running coach in Canada with the Coaching Association of Canada. So then in Denver I connected with the USATF and got their coaching certification as well. And ended up on a track and meeting this woman, and she was she was looked great. Wow, what a beautiful runner she is. Uh Maureen Custy was her name. And she was one of the top American marathon runners of the time, and had started coaching herself on a high school team, and we met on a track, and I was totally my athletes, and she had started doing coaching at adults as well, and you know, met each other, and and she knew my background a little bit on how much I had learned about um drills and all of the things that we did for the track. And so she said, Would you help me um with my my high school team? We're gonna have a camp. Would you come to my high school? And yeah, I'll come do that. I'll be a guest and whatever. And then the other male coach pulled out for some reason or other that no, it can't happen. And and Maureen and I had already started to plan, okay, this is what we'll do, and have this and that. So she came to me and said, Well, the the camp is going to happen. And I went home and told my husband of the time, well, I guess that's not going to happen. And he said, Well, um, you're your your two women coaches, why don't you have a camp for women? And we did. And we set we we formed the women's running camps in 1992 in Colorado. And we did that for 10 years, and it was so much fun. She was wonderful to work with, and I had camps, we had camps in Colorado, up in the Rockies and Breckenridge and uh high altitude, and women came from all over. We could only handle 40 women, so there are 40 for and we did maybe three, sometimes three, sometimes four camps a summer.
SPEAKER_01I can't imagine many people were doing women's running camps at that point. You were probably the only.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely the only. Yeah, how amazing. But and Runner's World picked up the story and sent one of the uh Christina Negron to attend the camp. And she had a photographer and took pictures of us, wrote a story, and it was published in Runner's World. And then Maureen was we shared, I I did the logistics and she did the she was the front person. And so, well, how could you how could you participate in this women's running camp? Well, here's Maureen's phone number. We gave her her private family home number to this magazine, right? We had to we had to change her phone. Right. No way that we could we could cope with that. So we did that for 10 years and actually kept on going until Maureen's two kids had gotten to be uh teenagers, and she found that being away, and we we did them in Whistler. We had wonderful camps in Whistler, it was beautiful. Um, but it meant her being away from her family, either in up in the mountains or in Whistler. And by that time, my mother, my my mother was living on her own, my father had died. And I was traveling back and forth to Sydney, to Vancouver Island, to tend moments. It just said, okay, we can't do this anymore. Our personal lives are calling us more than than these camps. So that was the end of women's running camps, but for 10 years it was it was great fun. And actually it helped me with my coaching, and both of us with our coaching, because I had always said I would never coach anybody online that I hadn't seen run. And women would come to camp and then I'd see them and I would assess them, and then they would ask me if I would help them. And I having seen them and having known what their capacities were, what the challenges were, then I could work with them wherever they were. Right. And I did that for about 10 or 12 years, I guess. Um I I kept coaching until uh helped some of the Comox Roadrunners preparing for the uh the Royal Victoria, as we as it was called at that time. And and I I think by that time, well, I was getting up to being 70, and that was enough with the coaching too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, everything you know comes to an end eventually, but the sport has come such a long way in your lifetime and and partly because of you and and you're giving back through your coaching and all of that. But I was wondering if you're still following along with the sport these days because the depth that we have right now in Canada, particularly on the women's side, like Team Canada just and the Canadian Olympic Committee just announced our marathon team for this summer. And it's Dana Pitoreski, 35 years old, Natasha Wodak, 39 years old, Melindy Elmore, 41 years old. I really wanted to get your thoughts. And like, are you following along? And what do you think of this incredible depth? And we're leaving. This is, I should really mention that we're leaving very talented and very deserving athletes at home because we just have so many to choose from and we can only take three.
SPEAKER_02And that's that's wonderful. And I think I mentioned to you at one point I saw Melinda uh qualifying time and hooray, good for her. Um, and obviously showing that um, which I hadn't realized at the time, that age was age was not a factor. In fact, one little story that I used to tell women uh getting started, women in their late, you know, 30s, early 40s, get can say, oh well, you know, I'm I'm 40 years old, excuse me. When I was 37 or whatever, this is what I ran. Eight years later, nine years later, I ran an hour and whatever faster. Yeah. So it is not my age, it was my experience, it was my training, it was my billing of my endurance, and these women have had all of them have had training and and racing opportunities. Eventually they eventually you do slow down a little bit.
SPEAKER_00But they've had consistent opportunities. You're alluding to this, like Melindy Elmore. I mean, she was went, she went to the Olympics a couple of times in the 1500. Uh so she's kind of had these two careers. I think it was 17 years ago she did her first Olympics, and so and ever since then she's had opportunities, and that's the difference.
SPEAKER_02And she's had a coach. I understand it's her husband that coaches her. Yeah. And there's the coaches know so much more. When when I started running, there was uh to figure out how to train for that first marathon. I couldn't find anything about running, but there was the cross-country skiers seemed to know what to do. And so I had a a book, and actually back in those days it was carbohydrate loading. Yes. I read about that, but okay. Um, but if you would you know the the information was just not there, and now it's so highly sophisticated, and everything is measured in such a way that in in a way I'm glad I'm not coaching anymore because I'd have to know all this technical stuff about wearing whatever equipment that gave such feedback and so on. I used to have people listen to their heart, you know, listen to their body and and maybe a little bit of a one heart simple heart rate monitor, but not anything like they do now. So uh no, I have to admit that I have not followed the the the uh either the track or the road racing scene that much. I tried to for a while. I did become very well, I was involved and very supportive of Cam Levins. Mm-hmm, because he's from your area. Yeah, I used to see Cam on the track, you know, so a big fan of his and and know his parents and disappointed for him when he didn't perform to what he felt was his potential. Very proud of him when he uh broke the finally broke um uh Jerome Dayton's Jerome Dayton. Actually, I I I did I I ran Boston in 1977 and met Jerome Drayton there. He won that year.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, that record stood for a long time, just like Sylvia Ruger's, right? Yes, yeah. Well, and Cam just qualified in the nick of time. Like I think it was just a week or so before the the qualification period ended. And so he's gonna be going to the Olympics too. So that'll be fun to follow along with as well, won't it? Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, we we could talk all day. We've been we've been going for quite a while. This was so much fun. Um just sort of on the note of like you've got a very unique background, right? That you've come up through and you've been an athlete and you've been a coach and you've been a pioneer for women's running. What advice can you share with us like about getting into the sport, no matter your age, no matter your talent? Like speak to the person who may be listening to this, unsure of whether they belong or whether they should give it a try.
SPEAKER_02Well, I sometimes hesitate to do that because as you said early on, I was fortunate, I was gifted. I didn't know I was for decades, but um and but I have coached many, many people who've all different ages, men and women. And my thought about that was I would encourage people to know where they fit as far as performance and events and so on. And then your goal would be to be the best you can be at whatever it is. I used to get so excited when I'd coach someone and I'd say, okay, let's have three three goals. Let's say that you're gonna run a half marathon, and you would be you know, you would do well to run 210. That would be a very good performance. If you ran 205, boy, that would really be good. Congratulations. If you ran two hours, you'd be out of your gourd, you'd be so excited. But give yourself a little leeway, be realistic, maybe get some help from someone else in assessing or see what your history was, and then expect a little bit of improvement over time. But another thing that happens with um more on the track, I guess, than with roadrunning, they have these whole tables which allow you to age grade your performance. Right. And that's hugely motivative, motivating. Um, so I could say, for example, that the 800 I ran when I was 65 was better than the one that I ran when I was 41. Now, not by time, but in terms of relative performance, it was way better.
SPEAKER_01Relative to your age.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for your age. So um, I guess most of all, um well, it's hard work, but you have to enjoy the uh the outcome of it. And they have to even if it's just your workout, oh near, I don't feel like okay. Well, just go out and start and see how it feels. And if it really feels terrible, fine, quit and come back and rest properly and and try again. But if it might begin to feel a little better, and then by the time you've finished the workout, whatever it is, you think, wow, I did that, that's great, you know, and be be happy with with with that result. And it doesn't always have to be in races, it can be your own personal fulfillment of a goal that you set for yourself that was realistic, and and and then be proud of yourself for doing it.
SPEAKER_01Wow, well said, you know, um, listening to you talk and listening to all of your stories, I can't help but think how many women or you know, young women getting into the sport or women in their 20s, 30s today really owe you a debt of gratitude, not just you, but you know, women of your generation, um, who we don't have to deal with some of the barriers, some of the stigma, some of the assumptions uh of the day that you did. Is there anything you'd like to say to to the younger generation as far as you know, things we can be grateful for that we maybe aren't aware of?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I appreciate this opportunity to um share a little bit uh what the history was, um, and maybe to have a little uh a young younger runner is just to know, um, yes, you're you're doing that now. But um with you're it's not anything that anyone would even suggest, well, you really shouldn't do that. Um so just know a little bit about the history, about the background, where we were, and people like um well you you've read Catherine, Catherine Switzer's book. Um that whole push to get a marathon into the Olympics was such a well it was fun because we she started out with have having one marathon. I ran the Avon Women's International Marathon in London in 1980, and what a kick that was because we ran in London on the very same day that the men ran the Olympic marathon in Moscow. And it was just like we were thumbing their nose, uh our noses at those people. Oh well, women can't do that. Excuse me, there are more than 300 women here, they're from 26 different countries, they're Indian and Japanese, and they're um Middle East and Australian and whatever, and and we did it. And put that in your pipe. Whatever.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's that theme again, right? You're you say I can't do this, and I'm gonna show you that I can.
SPEAKER_02And then so there were so many women who were doing that too, including including Catherine. She was in the world, I was basically focused on on Canada, but we all wrote letters to the the uh Olympic. The oh it oh oh the IOC yes um thing. Get with it, come on. And then the next, well, wait a minute, the marathon, but how come women are only running 3,000 meters when the men are running five and ten? Right. So then we had to take that one on and get and and and get the 500 and and in fact that that crucial race in the Olympics in 1984, was it, with um Zola Budd and Mary Decker Slaney. Yes, that was 3,000 meters. Why was it 3,000 meters? It should have been 5,000 meters, right? But because of the tr you know, the um sad, sad accident between the two of them, it left a Canadian in third place.
SPEAKER_00Yes, Lynn Williams, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And Lynn is a very good coach. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Well, and she's still coaching Natasha Wodak at the moment, so oh, is she? She is, yeah. So that's it's probably exciting and full circle for her to have Natasha going to the Olympics. Yeah. Oh, there is so much history, and um we are so grateful, as Kim said to you for for the storytelling time. And um, you know, you're just so far ahead of your time, really. You seized those very few opportunities that you did have, and you persevered and you showed us what uh women could do long into their master's years. So and and and one final thing too.
SPEAKER_02I was unusual and I'm still unusual, as far as loving to train and race on the track and run the long distances and the marathon too. Genetically, I was certainly gifted for that. That's not something I would recommend. Find your range, find your distance that you can excel at and uh and and and and say with oh they'll play with the other stuff too, get on the track and race. And but if a half marathon is your favorite distance, then go for it. Right.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love this advice. Yeah, great advice. And again, thank you for paving the way for all of us and showing us all what's possible.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for doing this uh series of podcasts. Well, thank you so much, Diane. Okay, enjoy your evening.
SPEAKER_00We can tell Diane has so much respect for the sport and its athletes because she immediately followed up with the name of the older woman who had run the National Capitol Marathon multiple times, Judith Haskin. Born in 1920, Judith was a barrier breaker, much like Diane, running 38 marathons in total at a time when it was regarded as unacceptable and even dangerous. In 2010, the year after her death, she was inducted into the Canadian Masters Athletics Hall of Fame. Diane also provided a correction for an error she made in the recording. She said that by the 1976 Olympics, women were still only running 200 meters, but in actual fact they were running 1,500 meters by then. I also made an error when we were talking about Melinda Elmore. I said she represented Canada at the Olympics in the 1500 meters twice, but it was actually once in Athens in 2004. After narrowly missing making the 2008 and 2012 teams, she essentially retired from the sport only to make a huge comeback at the marathon distance 17 years later.