Most Popular Interview #2 - Psychology of Change with Kirsten Beske

We are celebrating 3 years at the Call It In Podcast with a countdown of our Top 3 Most Popular Interviews! At #2 is the Psychology of Change with Kirsten Beske.

Change! Change is one thing that we can always count on happening in this life. In today's episode, Kirsten Beske talks about what various stages of change are, why it can be so hard to change and why it takes so much of our energy. She leads us through a framework that provides a roadmap for moving through the new stages in life and making changes more gracefully.  Together we explore the five stages of change, as well as why it takes so much energy to move through them.  I love her clear analogies and I am sure that you will too! The psychotherapy practice of “Positive Psychology” comes to life through Kirsten’s vivid examples leading us to the “next best version of yourself”!  This is a timely conversation as we move into the New Year and assess what changes that we might want to make in the upcoming year.  Kirsten reminds us that “all Change happens outside of our comfort zone” and that it requires imperfect action to “succeed or learn” ...failure occurs only in “not taking action”.  So, join us in this enlightening episode about the “Psychology of Change” with Kirsten Beske!

Transcript

Change. Change is one thing that we can always count on happening in this life. In today's episode, Kirsten Beske talks about what various stages of change are, why it can be so hard to change and why it takes so much of our energy. She leads us through a framework that provides a roadmap for moving through the new stages in life and making changes more gracefully.

I am so excited to talk about the psychology of change with you, Kirsten. But before we get started, please tell our audience a little bit about yourself.

●     Well, sure, so I am here in Southern Vermont. And I, once upon a time, was a lawyer who practiced law for 14 years actually as a litigator, before I changed careers completely and became a psychotherapist, and had a private practice and psychotherapy for a long time. And more recently, became really interested in positive psychology, and started coaching people, specifically, usually women, in how to move through big life changes, and how to figure out what the next chapter of life can look like so that as we go through life, we can make sure we're living into our fullest potential. Hence, awesome living to our fullest potential.

So that's quite a change from going from the beginning as a lawyer, and it just piqued my interest in how did you get interested in today's topic, the psychology of change?

●     Well, you would think it would be, you know, when I became a psychotherapist, but not really it started a long time before that, where I, when I was younger, in high school, I was a competitive athlete, and I practiced to play tennis at a national level, and had a lot of pressure on me. And I managed to develop an eating disorder at the time, this is quite a long time ago now. And I remember thinking, “Boy, this is a really unhealthy pattern I have going with this eating disorder, I should probably stop having this problem.” And not knowing how to and going to my parents and saying, “Hey, I have a problem. And I think I need help” and then saying, '' Oh, no, you don't.” Because in our family growing up, you didn't need psychological help. If you're a healthy person getting good grades and functioning in the world, why would you need to go to any kind of a counselor? And so was when I was left with? No you don't, I didn't know what to do. So I bought a lot of books. And I bought a lot of books on the root causes of eating disorders or women's body issues, which I think if you're a female in America, you can relate to what I'm talking about, you know, there's so many unhealthy images of women out in those days, that even a healthy young woman might think that they were fat, right? So between reading Junie Roth’s work, which you may be familiar with, who talks a lot about it. Well, her first book was called “Feeding the Hungry Heart”. And it gave these insights between needing love and connection with people and using food as a substitute. And so I was

able to read these books. And I think the other one was “Fat as a Feminist Issue.” And I took the insights I gained from just reading these books, and I actually was able to pretty much analyze, observe and change my own behavior based on that knowledge. I didn't really think much about it at the time. But in retrospect, knowing what I know, now, I'm realizing that that ability to change through insight, I think, is what always inspired me over time. So every time in my life since then, I've felt uncomfortable, or knew that something needed to shift, because I just wasn't working. I knew in my heart that there was a process through which I could go through to get enough insight to take enough action to actually change. And so I used that in my personal life for a long time. And then when I moved into the field of psychotherapy, I was able to start applying that in a more clinical way to the people I helped. And now, when I work with my clients, my coaching clients, I use the framework of positive psychology, it's called to to still work people through the same stages of change, so that they can use their own insight and get their own clarity and use their own wisdom to move into the next best version of themselves at that time.

Beautiful, and how interesting how you came to, you know, realize what it took to change and it's a good thing. You're a reader.

●     Are you aware that I'm very grateful for all the books in my life? I actually do a live show in my Facebook group every Wednesday called Wednesday was alive, where I just usually pick from my massive quantities of books and share, you know, the wisdom from that particular book each week so I still believe in the power of having books to exchange energy and information?

Awesome. Well, we have that in common. But let's go back to when you talk about helping your clients through the stages so that they can use their own wisdom. What are the various stages of change?

●     Yeah, well, so common in the field of psychology, they usually say there's five stages of change. And so I'll give you the clinical definition, and then what I call them. So the first stage is called pre contemplation. So that is what I call bliss, blissful ignorance, you have no idea that there was anything you might possibly want to change. So that would be why I often talked to a lot of friends during this pandemic, where they were in their yoga pants for a year. And they were blissfully ignorant to the fact that when they tried to put their jeans on, they weren't going to be able to zip them up, right. I, too, felt a little prey to that. So pre contemplation, we're just not aware there's anything we need to shift, then the second stage is contemplation, where all of a sudden, you get that spark of awareness, “oh, my pants don't fit”. And then you start thinking about, well, am I going to do something about that or not, which leads to the third stage, which is planning. And so planning is when you start, actually, like, visualizing out what you might do. And it's more of the big picture. I admit to having actually done what I call watching the workout where you look at the workout that you might like to do, but you don't actually do it, you're just watching the workout. So that's still the planning phase. It also could be if you wanted to start getting out and going on walks, or going for a run, you know, it's when you go buy those shoes, or you buy the clothes, you think you're going to need it in the planning stage, but it's not quite yet the doing stage. So stage four is the action stage, which I like to call the “Nike phase”, because it's just doing it . So it's when you actually take that planning that you've put in and you actually start implementing it really taking action. And then the last stage is maintenance, where you've actually successfully done this new thing that you wanted to move into, for long enough that it gets wired into, it becomes a little bit more of a habit. And it really starts to really shift kind of your sense, your personal identity around that behavior, it starts to integrate, so it doesn't take as much effort to continue it to go. So those are the five stages of change. And, and you can see it's a little bit more complex than you might think.

I like your definitions, though. When in hindsight, I look at those steps, I can certainly see them in just about every phase of my life. So that brings me to the question, why is change so hard? I, you know, I can do most of those steps. It's those last two, I have to force myself. But why is change so difficult?

●     Well, there's, you know, more than one reason. And so the first reason that is kind of the overarching reason is just that we are wired for the status quo. So our human neurobiology is wired for safety, right safety and survival first, and whenever there's change that's going to happen whether it's good for us or not good for us. It reads as danger to our nervous system, which is really unfortunate, right? Because so many times we want to change something because we know what will be good for us or we know we will be better off. But because we have not yet experienced it, our nervous system resists it, because it's something different and new. So part of the hurdle of getting over change is to actually have a system in place where we can confront that nervous system and soothe it enough to let us take those change actions without too much disruption. And so a lot of our subconscious programming, which is usually pre wired into us, like when we're quite young, usually zero to six is the age that our subconscious wiring in our belief system, I'll get set in place. We bring that into our adult life and that the comfort of our wiring is so comfortable to us that any changes threaten it. So, you're kind of going uphill every time you're trying to make a change, even if it's for the best.

So you use the term neurobiology of change. So that's what has been programmed into us since age six, that early, or even earlier?

●     Well, so some of our very subconscious programming is that earlier programming, but then we develop habits through our life. And so I like to always talk about habits of being so you know, what a normal habit is so right, the pattern that you brush your teeth each day is probably habitual, you probably put the toothpaste on the same way and do the same pattern. And if you get interrupted, it feels uncomfortable, because you haven't done it all, you know, your usual way. Those are habits that get wired in place as shortcuts, right, so that we don't have to think about every single action taken. So if we didn't have habits, our whole day would be so difficult, like we'd wake up, and we'd have to say, “Okay, open eyes, turn body sideways, move feet to floor, stand up,” right, you know, it's, it's just overwhelming. So our brain creates a lot of shortcuts. And we have lots of habits, we are strung together daily, you know, throughout the day… habit after habit after habit. And so when you add all those together, it kind of becomes your personal identity, your habit of being. And if you could think of habits, like neurons that are white, or sit together in a certain pattern, and then they're wired together, like soldered together into a very thick, solid piece of a circuit. That's what our habits are for us. So we no longer have to go neuron to neuron neuron to neuron, the whole thing

flows very smoothly, and it just doesn't take much effort. So when we're trying to change a habit, it's almost impossible to just break those circuits because they're so hardwired in place. But really, what we need to do is to overwrite them with new coding, I like to call it right, so we're going to set a new pathway, a new neural pathway, and then we're going to repeat it enough time to start to solder together itself. And then once we start using the new pathway, then the old one can start to disintegrate a little bit. And they don't always disappear. But they start to loosen. And the soldering kind of falls off of the old pattern, and the new one can become the primary pattern. So it really is almost as if we have hardware within us. When we talk about biology, because those neurons firing together, we say that” neurons that wire fire together, wire together”. And so when we start a new habit, we have to reset that new pattern so that they can get wired together also.

Interesting…since you were talking about forming a new habit, after we've made a change, how long does it take to form a new habit? I mean, what do we go through? And what kind of timeline can we expect?

●     Well, it's so interesting that the over simplified version that you may have heard before, it usually takes around 30 days for a new habit to start to feel like it's forming.

Unfortunately, the real answer is a lot more complex than that. And how long it takes to really get a new habit in place really depends on the complexity of the habit that you're trying to instill. So a more simplistic habit, you could reasonably expect that if you did it for, well, as little as two weeks and up to a month that you really are going to start to have that wired more and more in place. But for more complex habits, and ways of being in the world, it's just going to take longer, and it's going to take more repetition. And part of that is that you need more repetition to really wire the new neurons in place. And part of the length of time is also the length of time it takes for the old pattern to start to disintegrate. So, the simplistic answer is the 30 days that you hear and the real answer is it depends. It depends on how complex what you're trying to change is.

Yes, thank you for that detailed explanation because as a college instructor, we would give out 30 Day habit trackers for people to form new study skills. And so I had worked under the 28 to 30 day kind of ruling, but I know it takes longer in my life.

●     Right, right. So yeah, I think we, we don't do anyone. I mean, it's a shame not to try to get it done in 30 days. But I think that we shouldn't think of it as a huge disappointment if it doesn't happen that fast. Thank you. Thank you for that.

So different stages of life actually require change as part of being human, like one of our human requirements?

●     Absolutely. I mean, if you listen to philosophers, right, the only constant we have in life is that change happens. But I think if you think about life, you know, we do move through these decades where our priorities shift and change, and we shift and change as people. So if you don't, proactively, and intentionally try to manage the direction your life is changing, you will find yourself changed in ways you might not have wished. Right? So, if you just think of it, maybe even as if you're floating down the river of life, right? And so yes, you're gonna see different scenery along the riverbanks along the way. And you do have a choice, though, you know, are you going to paddle towards the right or paddle towards the left, or take this left branch in the river? Just or climb out of it, right? You get

to choose, but you are moving. And as we move through life changes constantly happening around us. So it's impossible for us not to change? And the only question is, do we want to have some control, or input into the way in which we want to change? 

I love that. I love that river analogy that made it so clear. So that brings me to the question, Why does it take so much energy to move into a new stage of life and to make a conscious change?

●     Well basically, because habit building is so difficult. It takes so much mental energy and control to build a new habit. But the whole point of building the habit is to get to the place where then the habit, once it's wired is automated, and it no longer takes so much brain energy. So  it's really a bit like climbing a mountain, right? And once you get to the top, then you can coast for a while. So just, if you think about the five stages of change that we were just talking about, that contemplation takes energy, getting insight and taking the time to figure out the direction you want to go, takes energy and intention, planning how you're going to actually move into the next step takes energy and action. And then overcoming the fear of trying something new, right, takes a lot of energy, and you're working off and against some resistance to this new different change, and all of that. So all of that energy goes in, and then has to be repeated over and over again, until finally, it will start to feel easier. So if you're willing to endure that discomfort, right, they say” all change occurs outside of your comfort zone”. And so that that, knowing that you're going to have to move into a little bit of discomfort in order to have a change, and no one's going to ultimately be good for you. That just takes energy, right? It's kind of like walking purposefully into the wind, knowing that eventually you're going to get to your shelter. So it definitely takes energy to form habits much, much more energy than just to have once a habit once it's wired. But the good news is, as long as you're being intentional about these new habits, there'll be you'll be better off right? It's only the habits we slip into that we may be unaware of , the drinks of wine at night that start from one glass to two to half a bottle, right? Those those kinds of habit habitual patterns that maybe you haven't paid attention to. Those are the ones that it's going to not only take more energy to get out of but it takes extra energy to break those bonds too. So, unfortunately, habits take energy to create and habits take energy to break.

Yes, absolutely walking forward into the wind. Can't we all relate to that? Certainly.

●     Well, just gonna say the pandemic has certainly placed us all in that walk for a while, we've all been forced into some changes that we didn't ask for. But we've managed it, but it's taken some energy.

Yes, that's one we've all done. That's one. We've all walked forward into that wind? Yes. So can you give our listeners some tips for making changes as we, you know, as we go into a new year, I'm sure lots of people are thinking about change in their lives, do you have a framework or some tips that you could give them?

●     Absolutely. And I love the new year as a kind of a point of focus that we can kind of take an inventory of where we are, and then get clear on where we want to be. And take action steps towards that goal. So when my framework around this time of year is to set aside some time, because you need time and space to really start to get intentional about how you actually want to be. So step one is taking that inventory, where I am, I am happy where I am, or there's some things or parts of my life that I want to change. And sometimes that clarity comes from also remembering that you have your own core

values, you have your own strengths. So step two, is really making sure that where you want to be aligns with your core values, and what you already are bringing to the world. And then the next step, the third step is literally taking the action right hitting that Nike phase of just doing it. And I love the idea of taking imperfect action. So if you're setting down some goals, and maybe you know that you want to be in a certain place, but you haven't really gotten clear on what the path looks like, guess what the good news is, you can just start trying, right? Pick some action, and try it and take it and see how it works. And that way, you either go succeed, or you learn that that wasn't the best choice. And you'll learn from your mistake, and you'll get to try another path. So there's no failure, you're moving forward. Nonetheless, the only failure would be taking no action, so that you were just stuck, doing nothing. But then the last step in this framework, the fourth step would be to make sure that you are getting some support around the desired change you want to make, because no, no woman, no man is an island. And when we're moving through the discomfort of making change, we really need some extra support from outside of ourselves. And that can either be spiritual support. So it doesn't have to be another human. But often it needs to have a buddy, a buddy system, a counselor, a coach, you know, some human being that you can clarify your goals with and who will then help support you even in those moments, when you've maybe taken that imperfect action and you're learning what else you have to try. Or making that scary leap through that zone of discomfort to get to the other side to have someone by you, you know, making sure that you remember that your compass is set that way and that even though there's rough seas, you're still going in the right direction. And really kind of hold your hand and encourage you through that process. So those four steps will really get you very far as far as making good changes in your life.

Beautiful, thank you for putting those into a framework. And it's really similar to what I do at the end of every year, from taking inventory to making sure that my next steps are going to be aligned with my personal values, my authenticity, and then taking the action and I love the phrase imperfect action. Once I discovered that I was getting a lot more done.

●     As far as change. Perfectionism can stop a lot of people because we think we can't move forward unless we do it right and turns out that's not the best way to get things done moving forward no matter what is really the key there.

That is definitely the key because I'm a recovering procrastinator because of perfectionism. 

●    At least you know that good insight.

Yes, yes!. And then you come to support. So if some of our listeners are looking for support, why don't you let them know how they can get a hold of you and what you might have available for them?

●     Certainly, I, I run a Facebook group. So if you're on Facebook, you can look for “Becoming Boundless”. I think the URL is “you becoming boundless”. And we do free training there. And I think I spoke before about my Wednesday wisdom live. And so that's a group that the whole point is to help people move into the next best version of themselves. I am happy to respond personally to an email. So I know my email is Kirsten @apropositive.com. And I think that will be in the show notes. But I'm what my specialty is, working one on one with my clients over usually a six-month period of time, because as we talked about, change takes time. So I also help people who know that they want to

go through some changes and aren't quite sure exactly what it could look like or know exactly what it could look like but have been stuck in the same place for a while and really want to get moving. And I help people move into that next chapter, using the techniques we talked about today, but a lot of other ways to work through inner resistance so that we can move forward more smoothly and move into our next best self. So we have that ease and sense of confidence that we're going the right way.

Beautiful, yes, we will have all that information for everyone in the show notes to help move into the next best version of yourself. And I would just like to give you a great big Virtual hug for being with us today. This has been a wonderful conversation. And it's just such a pleasure to be with you, Kirsten.

●     Well, thank you so much for having me. It's really been lovely speaking with you as well. And I'm so glad that you have this podcast. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai