The Jeffrey Epstein Files 3: David Schoen Interview

With the announcement of US Attorney-General Pam Bondi releasing the Jeffrey Epstein documents and the extraordinary trial of the ex-Senior JP Morgan & Barclay's Bank executive - Jes Staley - who exchanged "Snow White" e-mails with Epstein, we are releasing the much awaited final episodes of CrimeWaves investigation into the Jeffrey Epstein’s final days in prison.

We begin with the re-release our first five episodes investigating his death AND in the next two weeks, we will bring you three extraordinary new episodes.  

Highlights:  

-Cell doors were left unlocked in the Tier where Epstein was staying. Possible Murder.
-There was a “Ghost Count” on the night on his death: someone, somewhere among the correctional officers at the jail claimed that there was an extra person on the Wing with Epstein that night. Possible Murder. 
-Two long-term drug dealers turned high-level cooperators who were on the Tier where Epstein was staying are convinced that the authorities got it right. Epstein did commit suicide.

**

It is a mystery that obsesses our time.
Jeffrey Epstein, one of the richest and most well-connected men in America, walked into prison. He was friends and a business associate of some of the most powerful people in the world - Presidents, Prime Ministers, Princes, politicians, business tycoons - the very top of the 1%er class.  
He also ran a sexual trafficking network of young girls and women.
Just over a month later, he was found dead in his cell.
The official response?  Immediately declare it suicide.
Many people around the world, did not believe it.  So in the last four-and-a-half years, while there has been a great deal of rumour, speculation, theorizing and fantasy - there has been a distinct lack of proper investigation.  
I an Investigation Program students of one of the finest academic institutions for the study of crime - the University of New Haven - have been examining the case.  We have read thousands of pages of documents and interviewed people with real, first-hand knowledge about the case.
This is the story of Jeffrey Epstein’s death.  This episode is an interview with one of the lawyers who met him just days before he died.   And like most people close to Jeffrey Epstein - he does not think he committed suicide. 
He thinks it was murder. 

Please subscribe, rate, review or like this episode of CrimeWaves at YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.  
For more information on CrimeWaves please see - 
www.crimewavespodcast.com
www.declanhill.com
Twitter: declan_hill

Transcript

David Schoen

What he said happened was that this other inmate, this former police officer, had tied something
around his neck as sort of some kind of experiment that Jeffrey didn't feel, you know, he was in
a position to say no to, and the guy pulled the thing, and it may have left a mark on his neck and
perhaps elsewhere,
And that was the end of it.
He didn't pass out.
He wasn't unconscious, but it was a scary episode for him.
He wanted to report it at first, but he didn't report it.
He just said
he couldn't remember what had happened, but it was not an attempt at suicide.

Declan Hill

It is a mystery that obsesses our time.

Jeffrey Epstein, one of the richest and most well-connected man in America walks into prison. He has been friends and a business associate of some of the most powerful people in the world - Presidents, Prime Ministers, Princes, politicians, business tycoons - the very top of the 1%er class.  He also ran a sexual trafficking network of young girls and women.

Just over a month later, he was found dead in his cell.

The official response was to immediately declare it suicide.

Many people around the world, did not believe it.  So in the last four-and-a-half years, while there has been a great deal of rumour, speculation, theorizing and fantasy - there has been a distinct lack of proper investigation. 

So myself and investigation students of one of the finest academic institutions for the study of crime - the University of New Haven - have been examining the case.  We have read thousands of pages of documents and interviewed people with real, first-hand knowledge about the case.

This is the story of Jeffrey Epstein’s death.  This episode is an interview with one of the lawyers who met him just days before he died.   And like most people close to Jeffrey Epstein - he does not think he committed suicide. He thinks it was murder.

Music

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are in the world - welcome to CrimeWaves. Thank you for joining us, we really appreciate your company.  My name is Declan Hill. I am an associate professor of investigations at the Henry C. Lee College of Criminal Justice and Forensic Science at the University of New Haven.

Each week, myself and my students, research, and produce interviews with the top investigators in the world.  The idea is that the students get to study their methods and techniques, while you the listener, get access to real experts.  So you can understand how investigations are actually conducted. Not the stuff of murder mystery fiction but the real practice of real investigators.

However, this series is different. 

Two outstanding students - Jake Zenger and Alex Klein - and myself have been examining the death of Jeffrey Epstein in the Metropolitan Correctional Center in downtown Manhattan, on the night of August 9/10, 2019.  We are trying to determine what actually happened in that cell.

Today, we have a feature interview with one of Jeffrey Epstein’s close business confidants.  A top lawyer who met with him just days before he died.

Before we get to the interview, a few program notes.  Since we started CrimeWaves it has grown to be in the top-5% of all podcasts in the world with thousands of listeners every month.  We are immensely proud of our work and the guests we feature on the program… but we would like to grow the podcast. So please take a moment, to rate, review CrimeWaves. It helps boost the program in a massive way.   If there is something that you like or did not like in the episode, please drop a comment in the notes. We read them all. We respond to them all.   Its a very important part of the program to have feedback with you… so please take the time to do so.   Thank you.

Now for our interview,

David Schoen is an American legal legend.  In these days of large corporate offices and multi-national law firms, he is a lone wolf.   A man who prefers to run his own practice by himself without partners or in large urban center like New York or Los Angeles. 
He lives in Mobile, Alabama and has represented some of the biggest clients in the world. He appeared before Congress during the Second Impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump.   He represented Steve Bannon, Trump’s former campaign manager when he was charged with criminal Contempt of Congress.
However, for all his high-profile political cases - David Schoen’s background in one of civil rights.  He dedicates half of his practice to pro bono work representing clients on anything from death penalty cases to police misconduct.

He also consulted with Jeffrey Epstein. However, to be clear, he had no social or personal connections with Epstein.  But Schoen did meet with his client while he was in the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York - days before Epstein was found dead. 

This is our interview with David Schoen.

Declan Hill

Tell us a little bit about what Metropolitan Correctional Center was like to visit.
What is it like as an institution?

David Schoen

Very interesting.
I've been there many times over many years.
Where I visited Mr. Epstein, for example, was in the attorney-client meeting area.
It's not always the case.
For some of the inmates there on the ninth floor, for example,
Sometimes you go to the ninth floor if they're in isolation, something like that.
But here it's a very sort of ominous building, just slit windows.
But you go up to the third floor visiting area, attorney client visiting area.
And when the guards let you in, you go into a waiting room.
And then there are a series of rooms in which the inmate is sitting or they bring him down and the lawyer sits there until the inmate has been brought down.
Other inmates are sitting in chairs,
Waiting for rooms or waiting to be taken back to their floor.
When I came in, Mr. Epstein was in a room already meeting with two lawyers.

Declan Hill

And in terms of the conditions of the MCC, we've read the Human Rights Watch report on the inhumanity of the place, Amnesty International, the United Nations special rapporteur on human rights about the conditions of MCC.
Do you ever see that as a lawyer when you're going into that room?

David Schoen

Not really. You know, part of my practice is actually jail and prison conditions.
So I often take tours in the course of litigation of jails and prisons around the country.
I've never actually taken a tour of the MCC because I've never brought a lawsuit, but the condition that the MCC and the MDC, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, have also both been the subject of a number of complaints over the years.
They really have, you know, inmates warehoused in there, some violent inmates in with nonviolent inmates, and it's a difficult situation.

Declan Hill

We're reading these reports about rats the size of cats in there, cockroaches, sexual assaults on prisoners, rapes on prisoners, murders on prisoners, you know, guns found in people's cells and a widespread conspiracy of importation of drugs and various other things with the help of senior police, excuse me, prison officials.
And guards and a wide network of prisoners in there.
It just seems a shockingly bad place.

David Schoen

And it's also particularly difficult because it houses mostly pretrial detainees.
And so there's not a lot known about their background, how they accommodate institutionally and so on.
And you have gangs and rival gangs, and there clearly isn't a proper system for classification because you wouldn't see an inmate like Jeffrey Epstein in with a seria-, contract killer for the Mexican mafia as he was placed a huge guy and so on that wouldn't be ordinarily the ideal  cellmate.

Declan Hill

Yeah, and I mean, one of the things that we saw was they even got his crimes miss, you know, when just in the basic intake, they got his ethnicity wrong.
And they got his, you know, crime that he was allegedly charged with, wrong.
So just the basic, mundane details of the place seemed to be questionable.
When you met with Jeffrey Epstein, what was, how did he seem?

David Schoen

So, when I first went in, as I say, he had a couple of lawyers with him.
He had a system there by which his lawyers at the time, before I agreed to take on the case, his lawyers would have sort of runners meeting with him to get instructions or to talk about the case.
And so, two of them who were not formally on the case were meeting with him that day, very nice young women.
And I came in and he asked them to leave.
And so he was in pretty good spirits, quite frankly,
We immediately started to talk about the case and then another set of lawyers came in.
These were lawyers from a sort of prominent white-collar firm in New York who were talking to him about some business matters.
They stayed for a while.
I sat in on that discussion and then they left.
We began our meeting again and a prison or jail psychologist or psychiatrist came in, again, a woman.
So, she asked me to leave so that she could interview him.
Remember when I met with him on August 1st, about two weeks earlier, there had been an incident in which at first, they called it an attempted suicide and later came to no conclusion about what had happened.
And so, he was now on a watch in a sense with regular visits from the psychologist or
psychiatrist.
I discussed it with him.
It was not in any way an attempted suicide, but he told the staff when they interviewed him that he couldn't remember what happened because he was afraid to report exactly what happened.
But in any event, the meeting, back to your question, the meeting he had with the staff
psychologist or psychiatrist went very well.
They were smiling and so on.
I knocked on the door and interrupted at one point because I wasn't sure that his lawyer, who was counsel of record at the time, had approved that meeting.
I wanted to make sure, and he said that he had.
And they were all smiles, and she left after about five or ten minutes.
Then I resumed my meeting.
We met for a total of about five hours on that day.

Declan Hill

Let me rewind for one second, David.
July 23rd, the night of July 23rd in Jeffrey Epstein's cell, there was something that happened.
There was, his cellmate, who is eventually discovered to be a quadruple homicide, convicted of quadruple homicide, a corrupted police officer, who murdered four of the people who were going to reveal his corruption in his drug network, claims that he saved Epstein from suicide.
What did Jeffrey Epstein tell you that day, August the 1st, that had happened?

David Schoen

Yeah, generally I don't go into you know, specifics of attorney-client privilege discussions.
However, in this case, I think it's appropriate.
First of all, what he told the guards was that he couldn't remember what had happened, as I mentioned, because he didn't want to get in trouble.
What he said happened was that this other inmate, this former police officer, had tied something around his neck as sort of some kind of experiment that Jeffrey didn't feel, you know, he was in a position to say no to, and the guy pulled the thing, and it may have left a mark on his neck and perhaps elsewhere, and that was the end of it.
He didn't pass out.
He wasn't unconscious, but it was a scary episode for him.
He wanted to report it at first, but he didn't report it.
He just said he couldn't remember what had happened, but it was not an attempt at suicide.
He explained it to me in some detail.

Declan Hill

And David, you mentioned the word he didn't want to get in trouble.
Was that from the guards or possible retaliation?

David Schoen

Retaliation from the inmate.
And you know, there sometimes there's a complicated relationship between the guards and the  inmates, depending on whether they’re favored inmates or not with respect to information. So, there was always a problem potentially with a guard telling the inmate that another inmate had come forward to report him.

Declan Hill

Absolutely, and particularly in the MCC, where we find a really sophisticated drug importation  network there between guards and the inmates or some of the gang inmates that is existing during this time.
So completely understand, but Jeffrey Epstein on August 1st was saying to you, “I did not attempt to commit suicide on that night.”

David Schoen

Correct.
Suicide wasn't even within the realm of possibility based on any of our discussions.
It's not something he would have considered.
Our entire meeting was based on a strategy to fight the case.
So, there would be... and he wasn't in any way depressed.
The psychologist or psychiatrist didn't find him to be.
Clearly, she was all smiles when she left, told me everything went fine.

Declan Hill

To clear one detail, the student researchers and myself have heard different things.
One series of reports seem to indicate that Jeffrey Epstein had been arrested for, quote, corruption.
But in all the media reports, we're hearing that he was arrested for charges of sexual trafficking. Which one is correct?

David Schoen

The second, but I think maybe the confusion comes in.
The matter was handled for some reason by their public integrity section.
I was always puzzled by that.
And, you know, you may or may not.
I'm sure you know.
Mr. Comey's daughter was assigned to the case and as was another fellow who I had an
experience with, I'm drawing a blank on his name right now, was assigned as a prosecutor on the case also and he came out of that section, and I actually had the other case I had with the other prosecutor was a corruption case.
It was a case, a 600-million-dollar fraud case in New York City.

Declan Hill

But Jeffrey Epstein on July 6th is arrested on allegations of sexual trafficking.
And so, he's kept in prison.
Now, let's talk a little bit about the legal strategy as much as you can with your professional restrictions.
You mentioned that there was going to be a new legal strategy.
Talk a little bit about Jeffrey Epstein's reaction to that new legal strategy, please.

David Schoen

So, by way of background, let me say sort of how I get involved.
About 10 or 12 years earlier, I don't remember exactly when, I had a call from Epstein based on a contact through a mutual friend.
He called, he had at that time, as he had almost at all times, a battery of some of the best
known criminal lawyers in the country, but he wasn't happy with them.
So, he was about to go to jail for a short sentence at that time based on his guilty plea.
And he wanted to know what to expect at a particular place and all that.
So, we spoke for a while about that and he told my friend that he appreciated it.
From that point forward, I had very little contact with him.
Maybe once a year he would ask a question or something like that.
I had never heard of the guy before and didn't really follow much about it after that.
About a year before he died, he began contacting me in earnest again.
He had several months before he died, things were heating up in a case in Florida in which the purported victims of his actions, filed an action to try to reopen the case in which he had worked out a deal with the government, saying that they hadn't gotten proper notice under the Victim Notification Act.
Some of his lawyers made some absolutely absurd communications during the course of that, including one with a major law firm in New York I was shocked by.
But anyway, he was unhappy with his lawyers.
So, he asked me to start reviewing their work, the filings that they made in those cases privately, just with him.
So, we exchanged a lot of comments and notes and that sort of thing based on their filings and their strategy.
He repeatedly said that he was unhappy with them.
As things closer in time now, backing up, let's say now March or April, he finally asked me if I would come to meet with him in his townhouse.
I'd never met the guy personally, in person before.
We'd spoken on the phone, a lot of emails and that sort of thing, texts.
So, I agreed to do it.
I was in New York for another case.
I went to meet him at his house, and he asked me when I would take over all of his litigation.
I said, I didn't really think I was in a position to do that.
I'm a solo practitioner.
I don't have any staff, but that I would certainly be willing to help him in the capacity that I had  been helping him in.
It was very interesting that day.
He asked me to stay to meet his lunch guest.
This is completely an aside.
He asked me to meet his lunch guest.
And I said, I don't think it's appropriate for me to stick around.
I'm talking to you about you know a number of matters including potential criminal case and you know, this is a business lunch guest.
He asked me to do anyway turned out to be former Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak.
And so, it was interesting for me to meet with him and talk to him.
They were in business together.
So, anyway, I left that day, and the communications became increasingly more important.
There was a piece in Miami newspaper about him.
There was a scathing piece.
It asked me to help him draft a response to it.
He's very sensitive to the kinds of allegations that were made.
And then he was arrested in July.

And what he was interested in was going to trial and really fighting the case with me.
So, I said to him, we agreed on a price and we agreed on a method going forward.
I would come up to New York four days a week to be able to meet with him regularly.
And we would plan it.
We had a several part trial strategy in place, which I really can't discuss in detail.
But anyway, it was 100% to fight the case on all levels.
One thing I can say is it would have been to litigate the previous agreement he had entered into, which he thought and many of his lawyers thought, was a bar to bringing this prosecution.
But anyway, moving forward with respect to the meeting, we wrapped it up after about five  hours.
I left, said I would come back soon.
As I say, we agreed on a price, and I went back home.

And one thing I will tell you without going into any detail is that when I met with him that day,  in a matter related to the law firm, I told you there was a white-collar law firm that had met with him when I came in, in a matter related to their task in the case, he had asked me to help him with a very specific task that was only forward-looking.
If someone were planning to take his own life, he would not have been interested in having me help him with that plan.
Let's consider financial matters that he was interested in.
Because of some ties that had been cut off from him from some banks and that sort of thing.
So that was only forward looking.
Saturday, I got the news that he was dead.

Declan Hill

What was your reaction when you heard that news?

David Schoen

I was shocked.
Because of my Sabbath observance, I don't listen to the news.
I don't use a computer. Someone came over to my house who heard it on the news and told me, you know, I was just  absolutely in a state of shock.
It wasn't something that was even on the table, not only wasn't on the table, I had began making  all of my plans to move other cases to the side because he was so firmly committed to moving forward with this case.
And I heard again, from the in-house counsel, that that Friday, the day before, he was barking out  orders to the team to start to do some of the things that he and I had discussed.
So, he clearly was on board with that plan.
As of Friday, just the day before.

Declan Hill

So he was, from what you could observe, he was ready to fight.
This was not going to be a plea deal.
This was not going to be a tuck my tail between my legs.
This was a man who was ready to fight.

David Schoen

Yes. And there's no question about that when I met with him, and it was confirmed to me on that Friday, from the people who met with him that day.

Declan Hill

David, there's two things.
One is, on Thursday, August the 8th, he made a new will.
What's your thoughts on that?

David Schoen

I've heard about that.
I don't know the answer to it.

Declan Hill

So, my next question, and I'm sure it's one in our listeners mind is, you've got this plan.
Jeffrey Epstein is, you know, seems aggressive and ready to fight on August 1st and in
subsequent emails.
But on August 9th, there's thousands of deposition pages arrive.
Could that have caused a change?
Could that have affected him mentally?

David Schoen

I don't think that I can in any way say absolutely that it could not have caused a change in him.
That would have been a dramatic and drastic change.
There was a lot of bad stuff about him out there already.
The Miami paper had really thrown him for a loop, not though in a way that he wanted to
commit suicide.
His response to that piece, which really started all of this, started the criminal case going, was to
fight it, to dispute the allegations and to fight it.
I can't say it's not possible.
I base my conclusion that he didn't commit suicide on two things.
One, anecdotally, my meetings with him, the task that he gave me to do that was only forward-
looking, his affect when I met with him, his plan to fight this thing, just as it had been the
six months with everything we had encountered, any case against him, the discussions we had
about specific motions to file in the case, the report I got about his manner on Friday, the fact
that in addition to the task he asked me to do, that his in-house counsel was quite adamant about
paying me something immediately.
Again, not the kind of thing someone would do if they were planning to kill themselves the next
day.
And then, finally, on Michael Baden's report, when I learned that Epstein had died and that they
were going to have a medical examination, I suggested to the in-house counsel that the one
person they needed to have there was Michael Baden.
It turned out that someone within the family or the sphere had a connection with Baden and
had already suggested that.
And so, he did perform that.
He observed the medical examination and his observations and conclusions and discussions
have further convinced me it wasn't suicide.
What I mean by that is I've done a couple of shows with him.
What I mean by that is he said in all of the thousands of autopsies he had done, medical
examinations he had done, and this is one of the top forensic pathologists in the world, especially
in this kind of area.
He had never seen injuries like this consistent with suicide.
The layout of the cell also led to that conclusion that it was not suicide.
And what he was particularly perturbed about was that when he was on site with the New York
medical examiner that date, their conclusions, this was an assistant medical examiner,
conclusions were that it was inconclusive.
She couldn't say what the cause of death was.
He said then that four days later, without any additional evidence, she all of a sudden came to a
firm conclusion that this was suicide.
That troubled him very much.
So those are the kinds of things that lead me to the conclusion that it likely was not suicide.
But I've never said that I can absolutely say it wasn't.
I don't have any conspiracy theories about it.

Declan Hill

So, you wouldn't say this is a list of, I mean, my first question is like, well, if it wasn't
suicide, who would have been most likely to kill him?

David Schoen

So, my only conclusion would be someone on the inside.
The problem with that is usually, depending on the person's status, in a prison in which a person's
doing life, for example, if someone killed a renowned, accused sex offender, that person would
want credit for it.
He would be a hero in his circles, let's say.
No one has ever taken credit for this.
Now, it may be partly a function of it being primarily a place for pretrial detainees who are still
in the process of fighting their case, so they're not going to take a conviction for something else,
and it may be something to do with the relationship with the guards.
I know my view is at least they made a couple of the guards scapegoats in this, but I don't know
whether they had any involvement directly or indirectly.

Declan Hill

The other thing that I have, it's a question, and we're speaking to Michael Baden tomorrow,
incidentally, on this specific case, is the specific skills.
I'm totally willing, now that I've seen who else was in the Metropolitan Correctional Center
during that time in August 2019, I'm perfectly willing to think that there were hitmen, there were
convicted killers, there were all kinds of really violent criminals who could have done it.
But what is the skill set needed to make a death look like a convincing suicide?
Certainly, enough to get somebody, if it's not Michael Baden, but somebody could sign off on it.
What are the skill sets involved in that?

David Schoen

Good question.
I mean, I think that, you know, what they left was traces of what looked like the suicide.
However, you know, I have been on that floor before.
I mean, it doesn't look like the ceiling's relatively low.
I heard from a number of inmates, also, afterwards, who had been on that floor saying they felt it
was impossible.
The ceiling's too low to cause it.
It just physically should not have been possible to have that kind of impact, even if one jumped
from a top bunk, that sort of thing, in that cell.

Declan Hill

And these were inmates that were in SH-10, excuse me, SHU-10 at that time, or just had
been in that special housing unit at some point?

David Schoen

One had been, and he knew Epstein from having been there.
The others had just been there in the past.

Declan Hill

And again, now we're talking third hand, but the person who was there at that time felt that it 
wasn't likely to be suicide either.

David Schoen

Correct.
That's why he reached out to me.
Remember, after this is not particularly relevant to this, but I'm just recurrent recalling it
now.
Remember after the incident, the first incident, they moved that other fellow out that the cop
charged with the murder.
They moved him out.
They moved Epstein in with a guy who Epstein found particularly irritating.
He was, according to Epstein at least, you know, a drug addict and a drug user while he was at
the MCC.
He was driving Epstein crazy, and the cell was filthy.
The cell was filled with, sorry about the background noise, the cell was filled with, as you say,
cockroaches, other kinds of bugs and filth.
And so that whole sort of thing was difficult for him.
The other difficulty he was going through was that, occasionally, you know, the television would
broadcast something about his case and so everybody knew who he was and so he was being
hit up for money on the outside as most wealthy inmates are in there.


Declan Hill

In preparation for this interview and others, I did an interview last week just before Thanksgiving
with a crime scene analyst, not the one that we go in the papers for, but just there.
And their reaction was, look, self-harm and suicide is always difficult.
And there's always the sentiment from people that knew the person that it just couldn't have
happened.
Do you think, David, you might have that as well?

David Schoen

Oh, it's certainly possible.
I mean, listen, I wasn't so emotionally involved with him.
I really am basing it quite expressly on facts.
The facts that I saw, I cannot say 100% it wasn't suicide,
Listen, there have been a couple of suicides in my community in which the person the day before had been shopping and making plans for the clothing to buy the following week, and the next day she was dead, a little girl.
So, you can't account for what can happen, I think, in the interim.
However, the facts that I know personally are inconsistent with the idea of a suicide.

Declan Hill

The other conspiracy theory out there is that, of course, the Epstein family would claim that it was a homicide with the insinuation that they would somehow get money if it were.
Is that true?

David Schoen

No. In fact, I don't think a lawsuit was brought.
Originally, as I mentioned, when I was brought in after his death, we certainly thought very strongly about a lawsuit and that one of the things that I do in my practice are wrongful death cases against prisons and jails and so on.
And I can tell you that his brother was very interested in that, but the brother is not a person withstanding to bring the case, based on the way the estate was set up.
And so, I think that the people who were in charge of running the estate kind of circled the wagons and they had enough going on.
They felt defending against financial cases.
And so, they never brought this case.
Didn't file a federal tort claims act.
Administrative claim, as they should have, and didn't file the lawsuit.
So, I don't think any of that was certainly wasn't overriding suggestion.

Music 

Declan Hill

That was our interview with David Schoen,  one of Jeffrey Epstein’s lawyers who met with him days before his death in the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York.  He spoke about his deep belief that his former client did not kill himself.
Schoen bases much of his views from his reviewing of Jeffrey Epstein’s autopsy. 

There were only two doctors at that examination.  On our next episode of CrimeWaves, we speak with one of those doctors.  Like David Schoen, he is something of an American legend, a man with decades of experience examining crime scenes and victims of violence.  He, too, believes that Jeffrey Epstein’s death was a homicide.  Stay tuned for that episode next on CrimeWaves.

In the meantime, please rate, review the show and if. you have any comments on anything that you heard on the program do put your comments in below.
Thank you again for listening to CrimeWaves. We will see you soon.