The Jeffrey Epstein Files 6: How Jail Actually Works

This is the best investigation into Jeffrey Epstein’s death.   

Almost every other examination of his death promotes a political or social agenda. Read the New York Times?  They will feed you the version that Epstein mysteriously killed himself and anything else is a diet of ‘misinformation’ and you are a moron for questioning the official narrative.  Note - the official narrative leaves out that the prison was appalling corrupt and the conditions inside amounted to torture. It was in the heart of Democrat run New York City - the offices of the Times are less than a mile away but somehow that part of the story gets left out. 

Watch Fox News and you receive a steady diet that Epstein must have been killed. Each theory is, of course, more wild than the last. 

On CrimeWaves, we give you an independent look at all the circumstances around Epstein’s unexplained death.  In the first four episodes, we interviewed his brother, lawyer and medical pathologist who all declared his death to be a probable homicide - and we gave all the extraordinary circumstances that would lead to a verdict of murder.

In these next episodes, we tracked down two high-level former drug dealers turned cooperators who were also in Epstein jail.  They are convinced it was suicide.

In this episode, Jeffrey Epstein: A Lesson in How Jail Actually Works - we arranged a meeting between Mark Epstein - his brother - and one of those former high-level drug dealers to speak about conditions inside the prison and why the ex-inmate still believes it was a suicide. 

#TrueCrime #TrueCrimePodcast #ColdCase #JeffreyEpstein

Please subscribe, rate, review or like this episode of CrimeWaves at YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.  
For more information on CrimeWaves please see - 
www.crimewavespodcast.com
www.declanhill.com
Twitter: declan_hill

Transcript

                                 Jeffrey Epstein 6:  How Jail Actually Works

Former Inmate: 

There's nothing nice about it, sir. 

There's nothing nice about getting beat up or getting killed in prison. 

No one's gonna be nice to you. 

When they come to make sure to prove a lesson to whoever's gonna come after that. 

I've been in a cell where the cell was supposed to be white and it's red of blood of, it's not gonna be nothing nice.

It's gonna be the harshest punishment they could give out. They're gonna use knives, locks, boots and this is the reality we were in. 

It's a world of criminals. 

Declan Hill: 

I met two long-term prisoners, former high-level drug dealers who had prominent roles in the Sinaloa drug cartel that worked closely with El Chapo, El Mayo and the Beltran Leyva Group.

They'd also been on the tier where Jeffrey Epstein had died at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, the MCC in downtown New York, and I asked them, was the death of Jeffrey Epstein suicide or homicide? 

They laughed. 

They laughed without a second's hesitation, and they said "Suicide". 

The last episode of CrimeWaves was called "Rocking the Baby to Sleep", and it was an interview with one of those former high level inmates on conditions inside the MCC that could have driven an inmate to kill themselves.

This episode is another CrimeWaves exclusive. It's a virtual meeting between one of those men and Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, a man who has never had any connection with his brother's lifestyle, but who has for the last five years being tried to investigate the circumstances around his death.

And in this conversation, they discuss conditions inside the MCC, the lack of sanitation, the rats, cockroaches placed in the food, the abuse by the other prisoners. They also discuss the corruption of the guards, the non-functioning video system, and the unlocked cell doors. 

Welcome to CrimeWaves.

Former Inmate: 

The people that cook the food, the inmates, they know exactly who's where. T

hey have account of where the food's going and what do they do to those trays? 

It's the worst kind. You're gonna, you're gonna see, they're gonna send roaches. They're gonna send rats. They're gonna put write letters or whatever the case is.
So that's the hardest part. 'cause the mental thing, you have to you're taking a gamble the way I look at it, so I didn't eat, I lived off of noodles and. Peanut butter. 

Declan HIll:

Did they put feces in it? 

Former Inmate: 

Feces. Roaches. Who knows what else you could imagine they would write notes saying, oh, I hope you, you like my kids when you eat, or something like that.
They'll write notes. 

Mark Epstein: 

How easy or hard was it to pay for and get special favors? Was that possible? If you wanted to pay for food, could you do something like that? 

Former Inmate: 

Absolutely. Money is power in there. 

Mark Epstein: 

How do you do that? Do you do that through your attorneys or something? 

Former Inmate: I'm gonna be like, "Look, I'll get the information and then, and a phone does not recorded or something and be like, Hey, send this information.
Hey, send this person this much money, send it every, month or whatever."

And then there's those occasions where depending who the individual is, as bad as it is, sometimes they do respect certain inmates that have some type of street authority or that type of, if they're violent, or especially if they're like, if they could cause 'em a lot of trouble, they'll respect that.

So they could be trade offs. He might be like, look, I'm gonna make sure. We don't flood the range, flood the ranges, like when people don't get what they want, they'll flood the whole floor of water, cover the doors and cover the toilets, and they just flush flush, flush, break sprinkler system.

So they'll use that against, so Hey, I need a phone call. And then what you do is just say, that person could make the phone call. He'd be like, how would I do it? Don't worry, that person, you give 'em the phone number and they'll be like, call this person and ask for this sum that you're calling on my behalf, and give this information to 'em.

And then they'll do the rest part. Hey. My cousin called, could you please do that for me? Or whatever the case is, or, 

Mark Epstein: 

But that it was the guards that would make these calls for you or pass the messages or no? 

Former Inmate: 

They'll bring the phone, like they'll do, they'll bring the phone and like they, they have a phone and they'll bring it to you and be like, okay, you get a recorded call.

But they also have the ability to give you regular phone calls. And that's basically their way to keep the peace sometimes. Like I'll give you a phone call, or whatever. 

Mark Epstein: 

Do you have to pay them to do that? 

Former Inmate: 

You could pay them for sure. 

Mark Epstein: 

Because the reason I ask is that the night before my brother died, he made a phone call from the shower.  Someone gave him a phone in the shower. And I was wondering, how that happened?  I don't think that's a normal routine. So I was wondering if he had to pay somebody for that privilege.?

Former Inmate: 

It's not if the phone is, the phone wasn't recorded. 

Declan Hill:

No, it's not. 

Former Inmate: 

And that tells me that someone sent someone money in order for that to happen.

Meaning he said, "Hold on, I could get you that money. I'll send you a cash app, I'll send you whatever". 

And you get on the phone and be like, "Okay, you're gonna send me a cash app? Yeah?  How much are you gonna pay me?" 

"Whatever, a hundred dollars or 200, whatever the case is a thousand dollars."

Then they'll let you get the phone so that you could say, send me the cash that once that person gets it, it is not gonna be the guard getting the money.
It's gonna be a family member, a friend, a fake account somewhere. Okay. 

That's gonna receive the money, and then they'll let you make the phone call. 

Mark Epstein: 

I see. 

Former Inmate: 

And then you buy the minutes, basically you'd be like, gimme 10 minutes, gimme 20 minutes. That's possible. 

Declan Hill:

 It's not legal. So we're talking undercover payments, all that stuff.

Former Inmate: 

Absolutely. It's illegal. It's, this is we're talking about it's past corruption already. Okay. 

Declan Hill: 

Those guys, the MC guards were dealing drugs, dealing phones. One guy even had a gun inside it. It was a serial sex abuser, A rapist, murderers, killers. And that was, those were the guards like Nevermind, nevermind the inmates.
Those were the guards in the MCC.

Former Inmate: 

The SWAT team had a goal and actually take over all the correctional officers for the MC and they told me, "Look, they found a bullet. There's a gun. It's a mess. I can't, they can't pay me to go back and do that overtime. They can't pay me. There's no guards.
They're basically gonna fire everything." 

And it was that bad. Where even the guards, the other guards didn't wanna go work there.

Declan Hill:  

At one time you and I were talking and you mentioned that they left the doors unlocked. Unlocked. Tell us about that, please. 

Former Inmate: 

So there's a couple of times where we'd say if it was a cio, like a cool correction officer, someone in there that had a good relationship with the CO would be like, "Hey, let us out. Let's go watch this movie or something."

And they'll let us out after count what? They'll let us out after count. Don't unlock the doors. After a count, and then we'll go, watch a movie and then when the, when they're gonna do the next count, we will lock, we'll go back in and without the, and lock our door into, into the count cleared, and then we'll come back out.
And then sometimes we'll stay out to the next count. 

Declan Hill: 

And it is the guys, so these are the guys in the local unit of your SHU. (Secure Housing Unit) So the guys in the central headquarters would never see that these guys were unlocking the doors and letting you guys come and watch movies. I don't believe so. 

Mark Epstein: 

Yeah. On the tier where my brother was, it was locked up and there was a corridor, and I believe it was it was the special housing unit, but it was just like a [00:07:00] corridor with four cells on each side. So I had been told by different sources that cell doors were left unlocked. I don't think they could go out and watch a movie anywhere. 'cause they couldn't get into that. No, but 

Former Inmate: 

I don't mean to go outside of prison. We'll stay in the range in the tier, right? 

Mark Epstein: 

No, but on the tier where Jeff was, it was just a corridor with Yeah. If they came out, the only thing they can do is go into somebody else's cell. 

Former Inmate: 

Yeah. Yeah. I've been there before. I've been there. That's why it's, there's different sections. There's different, little hallways, 

Mark Epstein: 

Right? So I was wondering if those cell doors would be left open, so the comm, so the prisoners could communicate, and if possible, would they be left open like overnight if they were locked up at 10 o'clock, would they leave them open till the morning, when they did another two because they weren't checking through the night?

Former Inmate: 

yeah. Okay. So I've never been in that situ, in that situation where the, those doors were unlocked. 
Okay. 

Former Inmate: 

Because technically. In those environment, the doors have to be locked all the time. Like even for us to come out, remember the truck holds opens. We have to, cuff up. They have that procedure. I've never witnessed that in that area. Like with a SHU, like where the doors would be open. 

Declan Hill: 

But in your area, they did that what, once every week? 

Former Inmate: 

Once. Once every week. 

Declan Hill: 

Once every week. It was that common. So look, we're talking about. The Jeffrey Epstein death in the prison, and you and I were talking, what is your first reaction?
Suicide or homicide? 

Former Inmate: 

First reaction was suicide. Like I 100%. Why? Why understand? Just because I've been in those environments. I come, I'm like, Declan said, like my life. I've been basically had that criminal mind. I was raised since the age of seven, I've been in this environment. I know what it's like to struggle.

I I felt like. I might not look like it, but we're almost groomed to suffer in these situations. But it's even hard for some of the other people. While I was incarcerated, two inmates committed suicide in, in the prison that I was in, it gets  overwhelming. The biggest thing I just felt like it's a scary moment because you are able to communicate with other through the doors. That's how you communicate. 

It's an environment that if you're not prepared for this it's hard on your mental. So I'll explain I come from a background where in my life I was wealthy. I had everything you could think of. I had people that worked for me. I had people that would kill for me, if I asked them to.  

I was in that environment. And then you come and you're not that person anymore. Everything gets taken away from you, your family. That's hard on your mental, and I'm what I just. Thinking about him and his background to think that you're facing these type of charges that are probably like, that's the number one worst charge you could have in prison.

And you're around nothing but criminals and killers, and they're gonna tell you every chance they get. The COs (Correctional Officers) are gonna tell everyone. The COs might be carrying you and still be walking you through it and be telling you, "You're gonna fucking get raped. You're gonna get beat the fuck  up. Ooh. Watch what this is gonna happen to you when you get there."

When someone's not built for those environments, you don't know no better. I explained when I first in there, I said, "Wow, this is gonna be prison."

 I'm gonna tell you, I, I had all kinds of thoughts go through my mind because it's a slow suffering. 

Mark Epstein: 

Jeff wasn't in a general population. He was in the zone cell, or he had one roommate, so I don't think he was. I don't think he was with the general population where he had to worry about being attacked that way. 

But see, one one of, let me first explain. When I first heard that he was dead from an apparent suicide, I just accepted that as fact. I had no reason to doubt it. So I, I don't want you to think that, I don't wanna believe my brother might have killed himself. That's I fully believed it. 

But what happened when they did the autopsy? The next day the pathologist said they can't call it a suicide now because it looks too much like a homicide and then other facts started coming out. Another I important part, I understand what you're saying about how terrible this is.

Probably on somebody mentally and distress. But when he was first arrested, like a month prior to his death. His attorneys called me and they asked me if I would participate in his bail to try to get bail and I said yes. I put up my house in Florida but he didn't get bail. 

And then a few weeks later they called me back. Now Jeff was putting up, I think it was somewhere around 70, $80 million worth of stuff, his house, his, a lot of stuff for bail. And his attorneys asked me, 'cause they were going to appeal. Bail decision.  And they asked me if I would guarantee his entire bail, in essence doubling it. Okay. And I agreed to, and when I found out after he died, that the hearing for the bail appeal was in a few days. 

So I started thinking like, "Why would he kill himself if in a few days he has a hearing coming up where he may get bail?"  Because at that point in time. His bail with me matching, it would've been the highest bail in US history, so that was, then other things came in and people, I hear that cell doors were left unlocked, the marks on his neck didn't really, the autopsy results were iffy and whether it was a suicide or not. 

So then questions started coming up. And other people were saying he was probably killed to shut him up.

So that's why I was been looking into this. It would've been a lot easier for me if it was clearly a suicide. 

Former Inmate: 

Yeah it's understandable. Sir, I will tell you something, just from me and my background and understanding the criminal world, being in, in prison it didn't matter. You would've put three times the amount you, he was never gonna get up.
It doesn't matter what attorneys, I've had some of the best attorneys in, in, defense attorneys in the business as well, right? It  doesn't matter. I was never gonna get a bond. It didn't matter what you give up. That's a fact. And everyone in prison will tell you, you got those charges, forget about it. 

There's a difference between, a whole a dreamer, something is not gonna happen. I really think that from my experiences. Because we don't know how someone, how mentally strong they are. We don't know what type of news they get. We don't know what they're handling. And even if you're not in a regular institution, the hardest part about this is for you to go back to the cell and think that this is gonna be the rest of your life.

Especially if you're losing friends, you're losing the world that your family or everything that you've known. Comes back to this, whatever, five by eight room with a stainless steel toilet. 

Declan Hill: 

Hi, it's Declan. Just a quick note, if you are enjoying this special episode of CrimeWaves. That's an exclusive interview with Mark Epstein and the former high level Sinaloa drug cartel dealer about conditions inside the MCC. That's the prison where Jeffrey Epstein died. Please rate review, or subscribe to CrimeWaves.

We are a university podcast. That means that we don't do ads, we don't have sponsorship of any kind. We are just investigators. We are resolutely independent, and we have absolutely no political agenda. So if like our approach to investigations, please do subscribe to our program. It will help boost the visibility  in a massive way.

Thank you and now back to the show. 

Former Inmate: 

The hard part about this is because of your brother's profile, high profile case. I don't know if he'd ever be okay to even walk a regular yard, meaning you would take that chance at times you would say, no, let me take this chance because I don't want to be in here.

Hopefully I could pay somebody off and they'll let me be free in in, in the unit. But when you're there, it's hard for you to envision what tomorrow's like. And then again, everything I know about the criminal world. There's nothing nice about it, sir. There's nothing nice about getting beat up or getting killed in prison.

No one's gonna be nice to you. When they come to make sure to prove a lesson to whoever's gonna come after that. And the reason being is because it's this. You're in a men's prison. All these men mostly have kids, okay? They have loved ones. One thing, they don't care. Any, anyone who they consider to be a rapist, a child molester, any sexual predator, anything that has to do with that against women or kids, that's their enemy.

Because that they can't be fathers, right? They can't be brothers, they can't protect their family. So anyone that comes for that, when they're gonna make sure that everyone knows what happens to them. So will they be screaming through the walls at them? I'm gonna tell you, it is gonna be a worse, they're gonna scream through the whole damn block if they cut.

 I want it. It's a bad feeling. It's like I've been in a cell where the cell was supposed to be white and it's red of blood of, it's not gonna be nothing nice. It's gonna be the harshest punishments they could give out. 

They're  gonna use knives, locks boots. And this is the reality. We're, it's a world of criminals.

I, me, myself, with my background, I had to worry about stuff like that. I'm in the environment where that's how I was raised. So I could maneuver, I could actually talk to someone. I could say, Hey, you know what, I get it right now. We're in the SHU. Let's just be okay. 'cause we're in this situation where you're not gonna get it.
You're not gonna have, be able to touch me anyway. Sometimes mental does help, but for someone who is not from that world, I don't care how much money you have it's gonna be hard because.

That alone is gonna remind them like, oh, that's what you think. Especially if you're white and you're in a world, it's mostly probably everyone in there is poor and a different race.

The first thing that popped to my head, oh, you think you're gonna just buy me like that? And it basically, that environment tells me, look, another thing, just another thing that you have to consider as well and I told is that everyone's in there to go home. Every criminal knows that they have eyes and ears.

That's potentially. A way to get home in the prison system, especially in the federal prison system, they call, they have something that's called a rule 35. Are you familiar with it, sir? 

Declan Hill: 

You're talking about whether they're going, they can flip. So if somebody saw somebody kill Epstein, no. Something they could flip and they call prosecutor and say, "Hey, I got information. If you deduct my time."

Former Inmate: 

That's what everyone's looking for. Any case, they'll frame officers, the smart ones will be like, okay, let me buy this phone. Then that's the get out jail free card. 'cause then reach out to, US government and be like, Hey, I got a corrupt officer. I need some time off. There's no prosecutor in the world that was not gonna say no to that.

And this is what prison system is. They reward cooperatives, they reward people who come in and cooperate. Now, I'm not sure how many individuals were at that part of the SHU at that time, or was he alone? Because like in my case, I was alone. 

Declan Hill: 

No, There was a bunch of other prisoners on that wing. He wasn't. He was in this cell for the first time by himself that night.

Former Inmate: 

Because I will tell you on the other side of it, I, sir, when you're in those environments, I don't need to get up and look to see what's going on. I told this to Declan. You could sit there and oh, count's coming.

Oh, they're gonna pass out. Hot water keys are ringing. People are doing stuff. If you hear a noise that's out of the ordinary, the first thing you do is jump up and go check what's going on. You don't have nothing to do. You have a little window. That's how you wanna do is peek out and see what's going on.

Oh, we're trained mentally to. Pick up on these routines. If somebody's walking towards your door, you're gonna right away be like, "Okay what do they want? Who is it?" 

Even at 12:30, 1 o'clock in the morning. Unless you're really sleeping. But Yeah, but just for instance, like for many years, I did this for a long time.

Like I know I'm waking up at three a.m. Oh if they didn't come at three, oh, at 3:00 AM I know I'm waking up 3 0 4. I'm hearing the keys. They're coming. We live off of keys. We live off a door. If a door opens, I'm already out. That's. The lieutenant just got here to do count.

I could hear it from far away. So it's, if you hear a cart, oh damn, that's the food cart coming, they're about to go get food, stuff like that. You just naturally it's 
 there constantly. So there was an unusual noise, even if it was the middle of the night, somebody would've heard it.

Declan Hill:

And what you're saying is that if there'd been a murder. With those guys, many of them hardened criminals, facing long sentences. Somebody would've talked to bargain, their countdown. 

Former Inmate: 

It's it's my experience. They would've known. Okay. They would've had information, especially just looking at the record, see where they, why they're there.

Mark Epstein: 

Let me ask you when you were in like a cell by yourself and the door was closed, how much could you hear from the outside? I. How, like, why it was it? Or could, could you, you couldn't hear a pin drop in the hallway, but how, 

Former Inmate: 

You know what, so there's different environments.

Mark Epstein: 

Yeah. 

Former Inmate: 

In the SHU and those SHUS There's never, there's always, it's always active. I. They don't know between day and night. 

People pick up different routines. Some people rather sleep throughout the day and other people rather be up all night because when you're up all night, you're able to communicate a little bit better 'cause it's not as noisy.

So you're able to, you're gonna shout a little bit, but you're gonna be able to communicate. Someone might be playing chess from door to door. Someone will be like, "Hey, tell me a story." You're communicating with people all day and night now. 

Then I've been in SHUs where literally you could hear a pin drop.
I've been in SHUs where it was so quiet. I literally could hear people passing gas, the CO's passing gas in their office. Okay. 

The way you communicate is through sound. You're listening. You're basically listening to every, you could listen, pick up on everything. Everyone has different, there's different conversations going on, and the lights are on all the time.

 What you're saying would've happened with Jeffrey Epstein is people would've been screaming, you wait till you get to prison, they're gonna rape your ass. They're gonna come for you. Yeah. They're gonna see all that all day and night too. They're gonna be banging on doors for attention. They'll bang on doors, like literally they put a blanket or something on the floor or something they don't, and they position themselves where they sit down and just bang.

It's the most it's torture. It's torture. And then also you might have, if to say you have, there's religious groups, so you're gonna have people praying at the same time. 

Declan Hill: 

We're not sure if that was going on there. I haven't heard any of that stuff there. But you would say, knowing your experiences, they're gonna be screaming through the door. Screaming through the walls. What's gonna happen to Jeffrey Epstein? Because of the charges. Because of how well known he was? 

Former Inmate: 

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, 

Mark Epstein: 

 I gotta say, for you Declan said you were in jail for had for 14 years. You look pretty young for somebody with your experience.

Former Inmate: 

Yeah, sir. I started really young. I started, like I said, I started in the current world at the age of seven. Retired at the age of 27, sir. Okay. I retired early. So in, in my world, I was probably considered to be one of the most successful ones, but I thank God I was able to leave that world behind.

Mark Epstein: 

You're still around, so that makes you pretty successful in that world.

Former Inmate: 

Absolutely, sir. And just to give you some background father did prison. I grew up in a prison visiting room. My older brothers have done prison. My wife. It's actually doing time right now. 

As sad as it is it's part of, it's been part of my environment. I'll tell you, like right now, even, as we speak, my wife just got sanctioned for as, as much as you could think of a plan of what you're gonna avoid, sometimes un avoidable.
She just got sanctioned for an assault. 

Mark Epstein: 

Are you still in the protection program? Are you? 

Former Inmate: 

No. No, sir.

Mark Epstein: 

You're free?

Former Inmate: 

Yeah I'm, no, I'm not in the protection no more.  

But remember, there's prison rules. If you befriend someone like that, you're that person as well. So basically you associate with yourself with someone like that.
You are that person and so you can be attacked. 

Yeah, they, even if they don't mean that I know that, that person being friends with me and just say that outside of that environment is not good for you mean, I know that we don't even have to talk about it. So basically, for instance, there's prison rules with race and stuff like that.

Me being, Mexican if it was in certain prisons that I didn't, that was run by like certain Mexican groups, you're not allowed to talk to blacks. You're not allowed to hang with 'em. Basically they would treat you like the enemy the worst because you're one of them. You're not allowed to talk to pedophiles, you're not allowed to talk to law enforcement.

You can't talk to any CO without another inmate being present to hear what you have to tell that correction officer. You break any of those rules, you're treated like enemy. 

Declan Hill: 

Okay so let me return to the Jeffrey Epstein. Death when I read the Department of Justice quote investigation report, which is really I'll cut to the chase and call it shoddy.

It doesn't seem to me that they spoke to any of the inmates, except for one who contradicts the correctional officer. Is there a code that would've prevented those guys from speaking? 

Former Inmate: 

 Absolutely. Absolutely. When you're in that environment, 'cause you're just, say it's MC so you're still going through the pre-process, right?

Your court maybe there on a p or something. If you're not gonna be a cooperator, just say, if you don't have a great plan, you cannot speak to any report. Those are goes against the rules. 

Declan Hill: 

So unless you come forward as a cooperator. 

Former Inmate: 

Yeah, and you and then you've gotta, you've gotta make sure that you're working, that you're protected.

Declan Hill: 

Okay. Because I, I see a big hole there in, in terms of what you said before, and again, I'm not suggesting it's necessarily murder. I'm not suggesting it's necessarily suicide. 

An investigator thinking about this, that, to me indicates that. So there's gonna be, look nobody inside the feds wanted to do a murder investigation or a homicide investigation after the attorney Journal said, this is suicide, 10 days afterJeffrey Epstein was found dead because what, why would you investigate something that your boss's boss has just said? This is what happened. It's career suicide. Absolutely. 

Mark Epstein: 

Okay. I think it was less than 10 days when boss said that statement, wasn't it? Less than 10 days? 

Declan Hill: 

I gotta check my chronology, but I, it was around then because the death was ninth, 10th and then I think it was I have the 20, the 20th of the 22nd in my head.

Former Inmate: 

Yeah I wouldn't agree with you. It's hard because, the government, just like any criminal... no! The government's different, but like other criminal organizations, the boss says something, you're not gonna do nothing to contradict that. Yeah. That's your livelihood. That's your, so I get it. I totally understand. 

I wanna let you know, like in the SHU there's gonna be a, there's this, there's gonna be this, there's gonna be disciplinary, people, fights, whatever. That's your punishment. You go to SHU high profile cases and cooperating witnesses that can't be around other, inmates because, they'll have issues.

There's basically, that's your, or if you're under investigation. That's the people who are gonna be in the SHU most of the time. From my experiences, like people who are in the SHU are always gonna be like disciplinary, when they get into fights and stuff like that, cell phones or cooperators, going back to see, but it's gonna be hard, especially if they're there and they're going to a institution.

What they don't want is you never want that your name was actually written down as a witness or that you made a statements to any correctional officer, anyone at all. 

Hopefully this helps a little bit. I know it probably gives a lot of more questions then answers, but here if there's any other questions or something I could help you with, I'll make myself available.

Mark Epstein: 

I appreciate that. Thank you. I think that the question, it was very informative.

Former Inmate: 

Thank you you. 

Declan Hill: 

Thank you for listening to that special episode of CrimeWaves, an exclusive meeting with a former MCC inmate and Mark Epstein as he tries to make sense of his brother's death. 

If you found that episode interesting and you like CrimeWaves, please do rate review, subscribe like the show. It's massively important for us.

Now, on our next episode in the Epstein Series will be "The Case for the Defense". How Epstein's death could have been a suicide. 

It's a review of all the circumstances not mentioned in this particular episode that could have driven Epstein to kill himself. 

In the final episode of the Jeffrey Epstein series will be a summation of the two arguments, and we will present the one definite and to this date, uninvestigated way that someone could have successfully murdered Jeffrey Epstein.

It's based on unexamined court documents and we will be presenting it. 

Stay tuned to CrimeWaves.