Henry C. Lee: A Master Class - The Phil Spector Case

Two weeks ago, a genius died.

Dr. Henry C. Lee, one of the first pioneers of DNA in detective work, and the investigator they call the "Sherlock Holmes of our times" went off to the better world. 

Dr. Lee was the founder of my College at the University of New Haven. He was still working hard at age 86-years-old. We had several, long, intense conversations about various cases.  At another time, I will write about his effect on me and his extraordinary personality but for now here is an reissue of an interview with Dr. Lee from 2021.  

We spoke about one of his most famous mysterious death cases and to hear his description of blood stain splatter, DNA, and crime scene investigation is to hear from a true master. 

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It was a killing that involved a Hollywood actress, one of the greatest musicians that America has ever produced, and a mystery that took almost 12 years two court trials and three legal appeals to resolve. 

On February 2, 2003. Phil Spector, the man behind the Beatles album 'Let it Be’, John Lennon's 'Imagine', George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord', and countless other top music hits, left his Los Angeles mansion. He came back at midnight with a gorgeous blonde actress, Lana Clarkson. They got drunk. He played the piano, they sang. But at two o'clock in the morning, there was a single gunshot that echoed over the neighborhood. And then Phil Spector stepped out of the door and said, "I think I just shot her". 

Or did he? 

Because when the man known as America's modern-day Sherlock Holmes began to investigate, it was not so clear.

 On CrimeWaves podcast - a master class with Dr. Henry C. Lee.  

Dr Lee was the first pioneer of the linkage between DNA analysis and detective work. He is an expert in crime scene analysis and a superb investigator.  He trains police forces around the world but, in this episode, he talks about this high-profile Hollywood crime case, the tragedy surrounding it and the attack on his professional reputation. 

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www.declanhill.com
Twitter: declan_hill

Transcript

Declan Hill:

It was a murder that involved a Hollywood actress, one of the greatest musicians that America has ever produced, and a mystery that took almost 12 years two court trials and three legal appeals to resolve.

On February 2, 2003. Phil Spector, the man behind the Beatles album 'Let it Be’, John Lennon's 'Imagine', George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord', and countless other top music hits, left his Los Angeles mansion. He came back at midnight with a gorgeous blonde actress, Lana Clarkson. They got drunk. He played the piano, they sang. But at two o'clock in the morning, there was a single gunshot that echoed out over the neighborhood. And then Phil Spector stepped out of the door and said, "I think I just shot her".

Or did he?

Because when the man known as America's modern-day Sherlock Holmes began to investigate, it was not so clear.

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to crime waves. My name is Declan Hill. I'm an Associate Professor of Investigations at the University of New Haven. And each week, myself, and my students. And this week, it's Brikitta Hairston and Alexia Miller, we present an episode of one of the great investigators of crime.

And this week, it's a master class. It's literally a class and given by a master, a world class expert, who's at the very top of the field of crime scenes investigations. They call Dr. Henry C. Lee, the 'Sherlock Holmes of America'. And his is an extraordinary story. He was a police detective from Taiwan who arrived in the United States with $50 in his pocket. And he got his PhD with this wild idea. He was going to marry the newly formed scientific study of DNA with detection. And they called him crazy. Now, of course, it's a method of solving crimes at virtually every police force in the world. But Dr. Lee pioneered it. He lectures around the world in Italy, Singapore, China, the UK and many other places. But he also founded the college, where we work, I work, at the Henry C. Lee College of Criminology and Forensic Science here at the University of New Haven. And this is a lecture that he gave me and my students on that Phil Spector case.

It's a little different from our usual Crimewaves format because it's literally an online lecture from a master detective on the work that he did on this case. And two warnings, it will feature some pretty gruesome crime scene photos. So please be aware of that. And don't obviously let children see it. Two, when we did the interview, Dr. Lee was in his forensic laboratory, and the sound is terrible. We didn't realize it at this time, but you can hear various lab sounds and technical problems. However, we think this episode is so good, we're airing it as a video. And we hope you can struggle through this bad sound quality, because the content is extraordinary. And now, Dr. Henry C. Lee.

So, tell us about February the 3rd, 2003 and the murder case that you got involved with, with a man who'd be known as the greatest music producer in the 20th century Phil Spector.

Dr. Henry C. Lee:

Okay, that's a good question all my life we investigate a lot of cases and one of the case I will never forget. Is this case. You probably heard, January 16th this year, the news inform us: Phil Spector died in prison because of COVID-19.

Hill:

Yes.

Lee:

You know, the history I don't want to repeat.

Hill:

I'm not sure that all our listeners will know who Phil Spector was because he was such a giant in the 1960s and 70s. So, could you tell us a little bit about him, please?

Lee:

Yes. You're absolutely correct. In 1969, he's a record producer. He did a lot of interesting taping. Sort of a developer of knowledge, one of the same. He does all the song. So, he record a song for John Lennon, Harry Nilsson, Tina Turner, Rolling Stones, of course, Beatles. Make him so famous. But unfortunately, in the peak of his career, some tragedy happened. One day, his son, seven-years-old, have a birthday party, unfortunately, drowned in the swimming pool. Since then, he started using alcohol and gradually drugs, being in a detox center.

On February 2, 2003 - Lana Clarkson, the victim of this crime was working in this bar - House of Blues. Somehow Phil Spector, that night, was eating in a different restaurant. The young waitress really treats Phil Spector so good. On a $30 dinner, he gives a $500 tip. So, the young lady requests him to go to House of Blues to meet some other Hollywood characters. So once they get there, House of Blues, the music was playing, and Phil Spector meet some other people. And then he when he went to the men's room. So, Lana Clarkson come over and threw the young lady out of the bar, say, "The ID is fake". When Phil Spector back to the table, talk to him and say, "I keep you company."

Somehow one thing led to another. And she went to his house. He lived in a castle. Early hour of the morning, the driver hears a gunshot. According to him, he saw Phil Spector come out of backdoor with a gun and say, "I think, I shot her". But Phil Spector deny he did say that. Police was called. Right away, this castle become a crime scene.

When they enter the back entry area. They found Lana Clarkson's body.  She died of a single gunshot in the mouth. They noticed there are a couple of handguns in this room. First of all, they found a handgun next to her head. Initially, they classify as an accidental death. But subsequently, they investigate the case and based on limo driver's statement, they change to a Homicide. That night, they mobilize 107 detectives, police officer, coroner's office, medical examiner searches the crime scene. The crime scene area was a small area: five feet by five feet. Phil Spector was arrested and booked: charged for homicide. His lawyer - Bob Shapiro - right away, contact myself and Dr. Bata asked us for our assistance, so we flew to Los Angeles.

Hill:

Dr. Lee, I just want to take a step back. So, you were contacted within the first 24 hours of Lana Clarkson being killed? Or Lana Clarkson being found dead.

Lee:

Right.

Hill:

And what were your thoughts when you got that phone call?

Lee:

At that time, as you know, I start my career in the 1960s, as a police captain in Taiwan. Then, I come to the United States. I work at N.Y.U. Medical Center. Then, I subsequently get my doctoral degree in molecular biology. Then in 1975, I joined the University of New Haven as a professor. In 1978, I join the State Police as their laboratory forensic director. So, after I serve with the State Police for 25 years with them. The Governor appoint me as the Commissioner and again in the year 2000. Again, become chief emeritus. At that time, we took a lot of consulting cases. Because at the University of New Haven, we wanted to build a forensic program. So, need the extra funding, so those cases, consultation money. They usually donate to University New Haven or Connecticut State Police Forensic Lab. This is a one of the cases I accepted as a consultant case.

Hill:

One note, Dr. Lee, we're hearing something in the background of the sound is there. Is there another machine going on in your office?

Lee:

Apparently, so many machines clicking on. Maybe let's see what is going on? I don't know. Let's see.

Hill:

Okay, don't fool with this. Because it's very, very interesting. I just wanted to check if there was something really obvious going on in the background, but that's fine.

Lee:

Yeah. I guess I do have a lot of usual going on.

Hill:

It's not a problem. I understand. It's a forensic laboratory. So well, we'll live with that. So, you get a phone call. You're in New Haven at the University of New Haven, and you're asked to fly across the country to examine this crime scene. So please tell us what you found when you got there.

Lee:

Well, we flew. As you know, it's not a short distance driving. And so, we flew the red-eye to get there. Got to the first scene. The lawyer picked us up. We went to the hospital. At that time. Phil Spector was already bailed out. Doctor Bata and myself check to see any injury. Because if Phil Spector and Lana Clarkson had a fight. Or, as the police theorized, he tried to have sex with Lana Clarkson and she refused.

And that's how the tragedy happened. We should have found some injury. In addition, we want to look at his hand: any scratches, any gun powder residue? Or blood spatter? We also want to check his clothing and his face. Which we did not find any obvious injury. Okay? So, the next thing, of course, we carefully check. We found one little scratch. Apparently, when police handcuffed him caused that injury. So, later was verified. That's due to the police arrest. A handcuff police can. The next thing, they took us to his castle to check the crime scene. So, we enter by the front door. He had a wall of testimony and all those famous musicians and citations. That’s' the piano. She, apparently, Lana Clarkson and he played piano and sing.
According to Phil Spector, they left the House of Blues. She took a bottle of tequila. Two of them went to his house, they drink the whole bottle, which we was able to verify. Then they start singing. He played piano. By two o'clock he say, "I'm too tired. I want to sleep. My driver will take you home." This is his living room.  In the middle of the night. Some of the investigators. This is a Los Angeles detective and a couple of people having pizza. We look at the crime scene. Of course, by the time I get there, her body has already been removed. The chair she sat on, already removed. Her pocketbook - gone: all the weapons - everything removed. The only thing was a blood stain on the carpet.

Dr. Badan and me, we start working at the scene. I look at the carpet, I notice a couple of white threads. White colored threads, so it's foreign to the blood stain on the carpet. So, anything foreign to the scene we should collect and preserve. So, I collect those materials. I took photos and note. And I sealed, labeled, and sealed them in a plastic evidence bag.

I want to give it to the Los Angeles Police they don't want it. Prosecutor doesn't want it. Defense attorney doesn't want it. So, nobody wanted it. As a good forensic scientist, I kept it and I logged it. The carpet was cut and seized as evidence. So, the case, of course, first thing, have to determine that it was a homicide, suicide or accidental death? We can eliminate a natural cause. So, is this homicide?

This is Forensics 101. We all know when you discharge a firearm, you're going to have GSR - gunshot residue is compaction reaction of when you pull the trigger - BAM! - you'll have a trace element. Those elements consist of unburned or partially burnt powder, primer residue, lubricant, barrel, residue transfer and projectile material. So, there are two methods to collect. One, use atomic absorption swab. The second one is an SEM - Scanning Electron Microscope disk. Under SEM - that's what the gunshot residue looks like. Usually consists of bearing antimony and lead particles. So usually, we'll collect the palm area. We checked Los Angeles Medical Examiner's Office record. We did collect Lana Clarkson and Phil Spector's hand samples. They also put some notes, shows a minor injury of Lana Clarkson's hand and some other material. So based on that, initially they say this is accidental death but subsequently become a homicide. Usually, you fire something into the mouth 99% of the time is self inflicted. It usually create an injury inside your inter oral cavity and trajectory usually slightly goes up. And no shield usually because the gun barrel stick inside the mouth, you have no external injury. And so based on those, those are the finding results. With our knowledge generally that's caused by a self-inflicted wound.

So based on medical examiner's document of photograph, the inside the mouth injury. We checked their own record that initially they mark questionable accident to accident or suicide and they marked it accident. So, in other words, the initial determination is accidental death, how that later become a homicide. In addition, they have filled pathological report of a minor hydrocodone also percentage for alcohol concentration. So, in other words, she is completely disoriented with that amount of alcohol. She is drunk. Based on our study and other research study when you commit suicide, many times the bullet penetrated, but a lot of time it is stopped. So, if penetration you go to have a lot of that forward spatter but the result is penetration then all the spatter and tissue will blow back. It'll deposit on the shooter's hand, sleeve, or clothing. And, of course, the weapon. After Dr. Badan, Dr. DaMaio and other experts agree, we look at this scenario based on collective experience. We think this is most likely an accidental death or accident, not a homicide.

Hill:

Hey, it's Declan here. I just want to thank you so much for listening to Dr. Henry C. Lee, explaining the Phil Spector case. We've been working on it quite hard, myself and the two producers. That's Brikitta Hairston and Alexia Miller, we want to apologize. We know the sound quality is not very good.

We put in subtitles as well. But really, Dr. Henry C. Lee is the master pioneer of this field in terms of linking DNA with crime scene investigation. He had as you can tell from this podcast, primary access to this crime scene, and his perspective is amazing.

So, thank you again for listening. And, again, we apologize for the sound quality.

Lee:

Forensic science 301 - We always teaching students check the blood splatter evidence on the hand. So, people commit suicide usually have a blood spatter and blow back. On her hand, unfortunately, they did not take a very good picture at the scene. Autopsy pictures did not find anything. We did not have any close-up autopsy picture except this view. You can see some blood spatter. At the sleeve, you can see some blood spatter small blood spatter. So, the weapon is covered with blood as you can see in this picture. So, not only that we also have a tissue fragment, one fragment deposit all over the weapon. Here is a close-up, shows amount of blood. So, this is the weapon used by her. And prosecution Los Angeles laboratory own results show gunpowder residue on those weapons, on her hand, and her clothing. Because every time you shellfire, you create a lot of energy. That much energy so the target area, in other words, also, can found gunpowder residue on the shooter's hand. Anything escaped from the cylinder gas can deposit on the shooter's hand.

We did numerous experiments before and so that's why we want to verify her clothing. We re-exam, I re-exam her clothing we found material. But at the same time, we checked Phil Spector's white cocktail jacket. We did find some few spots of blood but not blood spatter. They are just transferred blood spot and the most important is the sleeve, we did not see any high velocity blood spatter.

Yet, according to a prosecution's theory, he fired a shot, should have a lot of blood spatter. Meanwhile, I look at her clothing. I found a tremendous amount of bloodstain and also on her sleeve area. Besides blood spatter, large amount of tissue material found near the bottom part of the sleeve, caked in there. So with that, we look at our past cases. The experience is with tremendous energy. There should be a lot of blood.

We did numerous experiments with police as you can see the blue vibe at the University of
New Haven. We run a lot of these gunshot reconstruction courses. Many of our students, many FBI agents, New York police, police from Singapore from different places come to New Haven to learn how to reconstruct.

As matter of fact, give me one-minute commercial reporting for annual Markle Homicide Symposium, which will be December 11th. The topic for this year going to be investigation of police involved in shooting case. So, I hope the two of you, I can see you either in the class or virtual. We give scholarship and share that information with other faculty and students. It is a once in a lifetime experience. Should take this advantage when you're in school.

So, we check on all her clothing to see the bra and panty give a forcible rip, maybe torn pantyhose, or clothing, or even checked her eyelashes and everything. We did not find any foreign DNA and no bloodstain under her fingernails, no tissue under her fingernail.
When we rechecked the crime scene we found couple high velocity blood spatter - on the wall, on the railing area. So that consistent with our reconstruction, the shell fire. So, you have some bloodstain, the yellow line represents little tissue material on the staircase. Blue line was found by Los Angeles crime scene people, the white, those are additional ones we found after they released the scene. So, which is consistent blowback? If somebody in between Phil Spector fired a gun, he should intercept all those spatters. Now, most of the spatter is on the carpet because carpets red, also the construction of carpet very difficult to find. And that's why we cut that portion of the carpet to look at that.

So, everything tells us at the crime scene is consistent with an accidental death or suicide. Those are the scientific findings, DNA, everything. Meanwhile, Lana Clarkson on all those indicating no blood, no DNA. Yet, if she was fighting back should have some DNA. The only thing we found is she had a fake nail. And her thumb, left thumb artificial fingernail has a chip. So of course, that become a pretty interesting scene because when we look at a picture, we found it. The prosecution did not put anything in their record, including the medical examiner. And, of course there are some tiny bloodstain on her hand, whether or not have more blood stain, which we don't know because this is the only picture that shows her hand. So, we issue our report, basically highlight our finding I just shared with everybody. So, we have a reasonable doubt because all those results.

Prosecution, meanwhile, uses limo driver's testimony, Phil Spector's violent temper, Phil Spector's alcohol and drug abuse and gun playing history. Those are all nothing directly related to this crime. It's not forensic evidence. So, the first trial which basically become a show and, of course, the hand become the important.

Unfortunately, today, the lawyer that cannot discredit the science, will discredit the scientist. And will twist the fact to attack the scientist. So initially there were four experts to testify but they disqualify Dr. Wecht because he appeared on Court TV, and discussed the case before the trial.

At the start of the trial, this fingernail become an issue, so they have a special hearing. The first person that put on the stand, an L.A. detective but by that time he retired. At the direct he say, "I look at it with my flashlight. I saw a fingernail no big deal, you see them all the time at the murder scenes." I saw that said, "Piece of meat, it is a fingernail. I believe it's a fingernail." He continues say, "Sixteenths inch thick. It was red. Also formed ridges. Like a Led on a fingernail." So, he basically say a red fingernail and lead on it.

At the cross [examination] they ask, "How did you see it?" You're in the dining room eating." He said, "I look at them with a magnifying glass." So, defense attorney, "What is your magnifying glass?" He says, "My eyeglasses is my magnifier." Red fingernail polish, you just saw. Everybody saw her fake fingernail. Is that right?

Hey, three of you! Did you know?

Hill:

No, there were no red marks on that fingernail. The half that was still attached to her, her finger. So, whatever it was would have been...

Lee:

So, he say, "It's a red fingernail." The most bizarre saying he said a whole fingernail. The second witness is a lawyer. He said he saw a white tooth. Doctor Baden took it. Dr. Lee did not take anything. So, you think about witness statement. The tooth, Baden when they asked him more, he wants to take the fifth. He doesn't want to testify anymore, he wants to take the fifths. The third..

Hill:

Sorry, Dr. Lee, who was who's the who's the witness who wants to take a fifth? Who and for the listeners that's when they that's when a witness refuses to continue testifying because they may be indicting themselves. So, who is that witness?

Lee:

He is a lawyer that night was at the scene. He was at a party, and he say he talked to a police officer. He said he saw somebody took a piece of something. And, of course, this police officer give the information to the detective so he was subpoenaed to testify by the prosecutor.

Hill:

Okay.

Lee: 

Alright, so that's, wait a second. Somehow Iost my... but anyways since it looks like Iost my spot. The third witness testify. She also a lawyer. She said she saw I took something white, and the prosecutor asked them is a size like a fingernail? She say, "Yes." So now the prosecutor conclusion say, "I took the fingernail'. So, judge rule said, "Whatever I took have to submit to court as evidence."

The newspaper, of course, twist the story. Now become - Judge say, "I hiding evidence."

Meanwhile, I was in Italy. Teaching at the Bologna Medical School. They conduct this hearing without me. They never hear my side of story. So, when I come back, I give a news conference. I say, "Over that years, since the death that night to the hearing is four years." In between, I wrote so many letters to everybody say, "I have some white threat I collected. Do you want it?" And all those lawyers respond say, "Keep it. We don't want it." So, before the trial, before the hearing. I packed and sent to FedEx, through FedEx, sent to Los Angeles laboratory. They signed the FedEx report. So, I tell judge what I collected, and it is in the Los Angeles Police Department it's not I don't have it. So, the judge rule, "I am not in contempt of court." Everything is fine.

Now, of course, it’s not fingernail - its white thread, it’s a couple of white threads. How many newspapers apologized or corrected? Only two. On page forty-seven, little tiny thing. The rest of them still think that I took the fingernail. So, this is an example, shows - 'Keep a good record.' If I did not keep a good record. They probably think that I took the fingernail.

Of course, during the trial, the fingernail never come up. Never become evidence. The first trial become a hung jury. The second trial, I tell lawyer, "I don't want to be a participant." Because no one wants to find the truth. Everybody just try to demean somebody. Prosecution try to say that Phil Spector is a chronic alcoholic. And have bad temper, want to play guns. And defense try to say that Lana Clarkson committed suicide because she is 'over-the-prime', no movies... Become a bar bouncer. She cannot even pay the rent. Her last e-mail message she sent out say, "If I don't find a meal ticket, I probably want to kill myself."

All those things... Instead of trying to look at the scientific evidence. That's why I did not participate. The second trial, he was convicted. But on appeal, he died in prison. So that's the end of a sad story - Phil Spector a musician, a genius in music. Lana Clarkson a good movie actress. And somehow, maybe fate.  They don't know each other. They never met before. But that night, somehow, something happened.

It’s a great lesson to learn.  I'm glad that you reminded me to talk about this case.  When I learned so much about this case. So, with younger people choosing law enforcement or police or forensic as a career - 'Keep a good record'. Whatever you do - document it. Someday, some time, maybe it will protect you. I'm glad what I did, I kept records. Otherwise, nobody would believe me. Everyone would think I took the fingernail. Even though you saw the picture. Just a fake fingernail with a little break. Initially, they want to say that Lana Clarkson tried to defend herself. Phil Spector uses a gun. So, when defend herself, the gun projectile took a piece of fingernail out.

Hill:

And Dr. Lee, I think the thing that I find most interesting is the difference between the science of the crime scene investigation. Where you are taking all this personal stuff away and you are looking at blood splatters and you are looking at DNA. You are looking at the thing, at the gun traces - the GSR. Then you put it in the very personal, gladiatorial atmosphere of a court room. Where it behooves the lawyers to attack the prosecution or the defense witnesses personally. So, there are two completely, conflicting cultures. One is science.  The other is a kind of soap opera-type art.

Lee: 

(Laughs) You're right. Your observations are right on the spot. As a scientist, we are obligated to give scientific fact to the court, to the jury. Relate the facts to them. Nothing more. Let them make the decision. But on the other hand, the lawyers want to twist the facts. Want to inject personal lifestyle. For example, OJ Simpson case. A DNA scientist, [not audible] he gave testimony. [not audible] Instead of focusing on DNA... They just asked, "When you were in college have you ever smoke a marijuana cigarette?" Nothing to do with DNA. Just ask a question, "Did you smoke marijuana?"

Hill:

The whole OJ Simpson trial, which you were part of was such a soap opera of Hollywood styles. We are speaking in front of two students. And I don't mean this in a patronizing way, but you weren't born during the OJ Simpson trial.

Lee:

(Laughs)

Hill: 

But I remember our workdays stopped. I was a Canadian journalist and the entire building stopped when that verdict was announced we all ran to a television. Because we barely had Internet in those days. It was just beginning.

Lee:

The stock market, everybody, office, the whole country stopped.

Hill:

Everybody stopped... Now, Dr. Lee, you have been involved in these high-profile law cases for 20-30-40 years now.  Is this case with Phil Spector was that the worst one you've seen?

Lee:

One of the worse ones. And, of course, later I have, often, tell to the public, 'Let the evidence speak for itself.' I'm a scientist. I'm not getting involved in pissing contests. I just give you the facts. Whatever the jury or judge make a decision. Nothing I can do about it. And history will prove these theories. History did later prove, and, of course, a lot of people now agree. Phil Spector just become a scapegoat.

Because Phil Spector, he goes to court. Not because he really want to wear wigs. People think he is weirdo.  He wears all kinds of different wigs. Different color.  Because he had cancer or something and lost all his hair. He was on radiation and doesn't have hair. So, he put a wig, look younger. By the way, he's one year younger than me. Just over the years, it wore him out. So that is why you have to have a healthy living style. Don't drink excessively. Don't use drugs. But this case taught me a great lesson. This case also taught the prosecutor a lesson. He lost the election. Also, later he started an investigation into a lot of, unfortunate, police misconduct, involving a lot of cases.

Eventually, facts will come out. But I am glad that I did through documentation. Protect my reputation. And the integrity of the police forensic evidence. That's why with a high-profile case, a lot of people think I enjoy it - I don’t. I really don't look for them. They come to look for me. That's why I am so glad that I retired - five times!

Hill:

Dr. Lee thank you very much for sharing time with myself and my students today, this has been a masterclass in forensic science. We really hope you will come back and speak about some of your other cases with us.

Lee:

Sure. Sure, more than happy. Thank you for reminding me.

Hill:

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for watching this episode of Crimes Waves. It was a masterclass with Dr. Henry C. Lee on the Phil Spector, Lana Clarkson crime scene investigation. 

If you liked it and or if you like the podcast in general, please follow us on social media, it’s super important. In the meantime, stay tuned for the next episode of Crime Waves.