Truth Behind Travel Podcast

How to sell sustainable tourism without selling sustainable tourism with Anne De Jong

• Dolores Semeraro • Season 4 • Episode 77

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Dolores Semeraro interviews Anne De Jong - sustainable tourism consultant and co-founder of the Good Tourism Institute on how effectively change the tourism marketing narrative to enhance the message within sustainable practices adopted within the destination. 


About The Good Tourism Institute 

The Good Tourism Institute is a sustainable tourism development and marketing agency. Their mission is to mainstream and streamline sustainability practices: making sustainability more accessible and appealing, and using sustainability as leverage to run a successful business. Through their programs and consultancy, the Good Tourism Institute transforms travel businesses from sustainable today, to successful tomorrow. 

On this episode, Anne discusses the challenges of quantifying the impact of good tourism, emphasizing the need for standardized metrics and a stronger framework. She highlights the importance of balancing sustainability with successful entrepreneurship and creating meaningful travel experiences. 


Dolores Semeraro is a sought-after international tourism keynote speaker and sustainable tourism marketing professional.

Dolores actively works in the tourism and travel conference space as a keynote speaker and moderator, gracing the stages of international tourism summits and trade shows.

As a professional keynote speaker, Dolores’ speaking topics encompass sustainable digital marketing for the tourism industry, how to establish digital mastery, and learn how to identify today’s traveler’s needs.

During the pandemic, Dolores launched her podcast show named ‘Truth Behind Travel Podcast’ where she regularly interviews tourism and travel industry leaders and representatives on how to rebuild the future of travel.

In the recent years, Dolores has continued to work and live on beautiful islands such as Mauritius, where she started her tourism and hospitality marketing consultancy working closely with the Mauritian luxury hospitality sector as corporate trainer.

According to her international clients, Dolores is a gifted trainer and intuitive workshop facilitator.

She is now based in Europe where she actively works as keynote speaker and corporate trainer in the tourism industry.

www.doloressemeraro.com

dolores@doloressemeraro.com

Instagram @dolores_semeraro

LinkedIn @dolores.sem

Dolores Semeraro:

Welcome back to season four of truth behind travel podcast. My guest today is someone that has brought her passion into what she does every day, so much so that I don't think she even calls it a job and made it a mission to create not just value for tourism and travel institutions, but actually create a platform where everyone can get better at doing tourism, at learning about sustainabilities and really strategizing for for a better tourism in the future. Welcome Anne. I'm so happy to have you here.

Anne de Jong:

Thank you so much for having me.

Dolores Semeraro:

Would you like to tell us a little bit about the journey that led you to create the good Tourism Institute and where you're at today?

Anne de Jong:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So basically, the good Tourism Institute is sustainable tourism development and marketing agency, and it helps to transform travel businesses from being sustainable today to successful tomorrow, and to really balance or being sustainable and doing good with successful entrepreneurship. And I started this business together with Rick, my partner, and he is a digital marketing expert, and I have a background in sustainable tourism, and we were kind of brainstorming about that in my work, also with certification schemes and supporting travel businesses in helping to become more sustainable, is that their main question always was like, What's in it for me, like, I want to become more Sustainable, but what's in it for me as a business, personally, and also what Rick sees is that there is so much opportunity for businesses to be more successful because they're sustainable. So you kind of have to change the narrative. You have to change the perspective. So we came together to build a good Tourism Institute to allow businesses and to teach them to how do you combine sustainability with successful entrepreneurship, how you can develop better experiences that are not only good for people planet profit, but are especially meaningful to travelers? Because in the end, travelers are interested in sustainability, but only if it increases their own experience. They won't travel simply because something is sustainable. Their own experience comes first, and you have to take that into account.

Dolores Semeraro:

When you're developing a tourism business. It is something that it's much needed today, when that happens, and we can call it good tourism. How can we quantify that impact? When we say, well, you know, you're going to have that impact, you're going to be successful, how do we quantify that?

Anne de Jong:

Well, I think that's one of the most difficult questions in good tourism, because it's so challenging to measure because of its many size, complexity and also lack of metrics, or at least standardized metrics. And also there's still a debate about what sustainable or what good tourism actually is, but you can always focus on, well actually, the social impact, like employment and income of locals, community, well being, cultural preservation, but also, for example, the visitor satisfaction regarding sustainability, so the social impact focuses on locals and on the travelers. And yeah, you have to really focus on getting data out. And yet, before you can do that, you have to define what is it that you're measuring and how, and how can you ensure that you have reliable data that can be compared to someone else's data that's using the same metrics? And of course, you also have the environmental impact, like conservation of protected land or an increase in biodiversity, lower carbon footprint. But then, of course, you have the challenge of first measuring your carbon footprint before you know how you can reduce it and what the reduction actually is, and of course, the economic impact, and I guess that's the easiest one, or actually also indirect revenue from responsible tourism, specifically how local tourism businesses are doing, maybe also the percentage of Businesses adopting sustainable practices, but, yeah, these are all rough ideas, and before you can actually measure sustainable tourism and the impact, the first step is to really create a strong framework on, yeah, how to do that, what approach you're going to take, and it kind of has to be adopted globally to actually measure the impact, because you can see that's happening now is that a lot of travel businesses or destinations are writing their own impact reports, and not all of them are based on the same framework or on the same metrics. So it's so difficult to compare, yeah, so we can quantify it, but we have a long way to go.

Dolores Semeraro:

So what would you say are the minimum, or, let's say, the most applicable ones that one could you know, let's be very sort of solution oriented. What kind of parameters would you recommend to focus on to begin with?

Anne de Jong:

Yeah, so I think most destinations already have the data regarding the economic impact. So they know the GPD, they know the indirect or direct revenue from responsible tourism, and they also have some idea about the employment and income rates. Well, what's challenging to measure are, for example, the carbon emissions. Like, how do you measure incoming carbon, or carbon on the ground, and also the satisfaction rates of locals? So how do you actually measure how satisfied local communities are with tourism? Why are they satisfied? Or why are they not? And to really focus into that data and use that as a leverage to improve the destination for the local people, and I think that's also what we see with destination that are not doing well in terms of sustainability, is the kind of forgetting that person foremost it should be a destination that people want to live in before people can visit. Because if you have unhappy locals, if you have people there that are not interested in tourism or hostile or you're not welcoming, yeah, the experience of the traveler is not good. So that's something that I think is quite often forgotten. So like how important the satisfaction rate of locals is, and how to use that to be better as a tourism destination.

Dolores Semeraro:

When do you see them actually turning into regenerative models? You know, like, when? When does that shift happen?

Anne de Jong:

Well, is a tricky question, because I think that if you're focused on duet, genuine or good, sustainable, responsible tourism, you're already focusing on leaving the destination a better place. And I'm all for new ways to be more sustainable, but what I think about all the buzz around regenerative tourism is that they see it as the next thing. And what I'm kind of struggling with is to see like, okay, but when is something regenerative? Is someone who's advanced in sustainable tourism, who is focusing, for example, on who is organizing dive tours and focusing on reef restoration, who is doing all the things to give back to the destination, but who calls it sustainability, is that any less than someone who just starts with regenerative tourism, but who calls it regenerative tourism, good tourism is about making sure that you're benefiting the destination and doing good and making sure you give back to people planet and wildlife, like nature and wildlife, while offering Travelers an amazing experience.

Dolores Semeraro:

I agree. I think there's a lot of hype around, you know, the next definition, the next category, another pattern, another word in which we need, all need to be categorized, and we all need to kind of point and recognize, if anything, in the regenerative practices we align social responsibility and tourism scope, just so to speak. So social responsibility and tourism scope aligned, and basically what the local governance could do, or should do for the local community, the tourism industry sort of CO create together, rather than being a separate entity that creates, as you said, experiences only for the tourists and not for the local. In regenerative tourism, when I see a destination that shuts down completely for the next six months, I wonder what regeneration is there. You know what? What kind of regeneration is even happening? Is it even happening? Is it even planned? You know, as such, but you've worked with several destinations all around the world. Who is nailing it, like who do you see is actually doing a great job?

Anne de Jong:

Yeah, so actually, well, that quite a lot of destinations that are doing good, which is great to see and great to see as to use as an examples, also for destinations who are working on getting there, and these, for example, destinations I haven't worked with. But what I really like, for example, is New Zealand. We just launched their tiaki promise. Not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly, um, but they're really encouraging travelers to protect and preserve their land. So to make it really personal, like you step foot on our land, and by coming we ask you to get, protect and preserve, to care for it. And they connected that to a very strong How do you call it regulation around wildlife protection and conservation? And they really align it well with their. Their Maori cultural values? Do they really combine protecting our land for the majority people and their culture, but still allowing visitors in and experiencing all that magic, or all that standing nature, but only on a way, on local terms? And I think they're really doing well as a front runner in making sure that they're doing what the people that live there want, and how they want to welcome tourists, and, yeah, how, the way they see that, I think that's a really good example of, yeah, how to preserve your country and to set strong regulations and to maybe even refuse people to come in, like, have a maximum people to be in a certain area, and they do that really well. It's, it's really good example.

Dolores Semeraro:

And which destinations are you seeing, not on this, like, not on the right track, which ones do you think should really look into what they're doing?

Anne de Jong:

Well, I think, well, there are also a lot of destinations that are will have a lot of steps to take, I would say. And these are, for example, destinations that are experiencing a lot of over tourism, for example, Venice or Barcelona, that have, for example, lack of regulations. When I think about Machu Picchu, for example, I just read an article a few weeks ago. He said there are numbers of people going up there or heavily exceeding the UNESCO recommended limits. So they do have limits, but they're not really following these guidelines, so they're allowing too many people on the trails, so they suffer, yeah, from erosion, and that might threaten the existence of the trails going up. I think that's the thing about sustainable destination management strategies, is that a lot of destinations want more tourism. For example, think about Dubrovnik and Croatia. So they when the Game of Thrones series got hyped, they really saw that opportunity to see, okay, this is King's Landing. Come visit this in real life, and they exploited that so far along that I'm hoping that they kind of regret, regret how they did that. So they were so focused on making a great destination for visitors, that they kind of forgot to look into the carrying capacity of a destination, of how far this could go, because now you actually have travelers avoiding Dubrovnik because it's too busy, it's overcrowded, it's too expensive. I mean, I guess they had good intentions, and I think that's the thing with tourism, is that I guess they're doing a lot of good for local businesses, but also doing a lot of harm. I think in good tourism, it's all about finding the right balance, and especially in destinations where both locals and the visitors and nature, but they don't have a voice, are all three unhappy about what's happening, or how many people are there, or the consequences of this many people, you're definitely not on the right track for sustainable tourism,

Dolores Semeraro:

yeah, and if we talk about Albania, or, you know, those countries in the Balkan region where a lot has been done, you know, under the sort of like the blessings and the example of Slovenia, and how successful the positioning and the and the sustainability practices of Slovenia per se have proved to have been, you know, proven. But so in Albania, the Minister of Tourism is also the Minister of an of the environment. So the environment and tourism are led by the same ministry office, which puts them in an advantageous position, because whatever they do, they'll do it. Whatever they do for tourism, they'll do it side by side in terms of environment. They've just signed up with gstc for guidance and to develop future practices. I've been to these places, and between what has been said and what has been done, there's a huge gap. There's a lot of work to be done, and there's a lot of engagement within the local communities that is missing. A lot of people are still in small towns, villages, waiting for the tourist to arrive during the summer time or so. And you know, exploit that when you said that it a traveler will will embrace sustainability and sustainable travel if it enriches its experience directly, if it's if there is something in it for them, how would you, how would you say a tourism business or tourism entrepreneur, an operator, so so to speak, can make that happen? How can we? How can, how could these businesses make sustainability The easy choice for travelers

Anne de Jong:

that's really focused on how you develop the experiences that you're offering. Because, on the one hand, what travelers are looking for is an experience. So you have the experience economy. They're looking to participate in something. So to do something, they're interested in learning something. So either educated or learn something about culture history or food, and they want to, how do you say that they want to have their senses stimulated? So they want to smell new things, taste new things, hear new things. And that can be food, it can be nature, it can be music, and it's really important to take that into account, so you're developing an experience. So what is there in your village? For example, let's take Albania that they can offer that is unique to their village. Perhaps they have a very famous, I don't know, apple pie that they can turn an experience into where you would go to the local orchard. You can see how did the apple trees grow. You will meet some animals along the way. You can have a bike ride, you can walk, you can taste, you can help bake. You can connect with local community. And it's really about, okay, so you're having a great experience. It's completely local. They're learning something, they're participating in something. And it's also a really great story to tell, because then the story is, it's not okay. I went to a village in Albania. It's I went to in a village in Albania, and they had this amazing apple pie, and I learned how to bake it. And that is something that you can tell friends and family about. So it has to be something that's memorable for the traveler, but might be very ordinary to the locals. This is also often where, like, for example, I worked a lot with African destinations, and what happens there that the locals say like, but this is not interesting to people, and they go out of their way to create something that's not authentic, and just because they think that's what the traveler wants, but it's all about and that's why you need the expertise of someone who knows what travelers want to connect it to sustainability and product development is okay. What does the destination have to offer? What do the locals have to offer? And what do they want to share? It's I always come back to on cool terms. You have to create local ownership. You have them, you need them to be on board. You need them to be excited, and then you can welcome traveling in a way that they feel comfortable with. It will be more authentic. And of course, authentic is another buzzword that everyone loves to throw around. But authenticity comes with being comfortable with what you're sharing in a way that's true to your culture. That is what it makes an amazing experience for travelers, because they want to have that genuine connection. Yeah, when they do something new,

Dolores Semeraro:

I think a lot of destination when promotion is in place, they want to showcase what, you know, the richness and the depth and the goodness of the cultural traits. And there's nothing wrong with it, as long as, I think, as long as there's transparency in describing it. So you should say this is a showcase. Nothing wrong with that. I can go and see like a local dance, which obviously the locals don't do every Sunday in the middle of the town square, because on Sunday morning they do other things nowadays. So it's a showcase. It's not an authentic experience. So there's a, I think there's a, there's a lot of sort of gray area in between, and that's where we fall short. I think,

Anne de Jong:

yeah, on the one hand, I think a lot of people don't really see the opportunities that it offers. Because, for example, this dancing on the square. Yes, it is showcased, but it used to be a huge part of the culture. And yes, culture has developed, but still, it's a great aspect of their history, and you can again, turn that into an amazing travel experience by kind of turning it into a dancing class. Let them dress up or not if they don't want to, but let them learn how to participate. Let them experience how that feels, dancing on that square with other locals who love doing it. It's not about disrespecting culture. It kind of making them part of something that is dear to a country. So you can always turn something that is staged into something that other people can still learn from and benefit from. Because, for example, if it wasn't staged, how are you supposed to learn? Like you need someone to teach. You need You need that music. You need someone to explain. You to dance passes. And I think that is way more interesting than just watching it like a performance. And you don't want that anymore. You want to really coming back to the experience economy. You want to participate. You want to feel something. You want to have an. Amazing memory, because then you can say, I learned flamenco in Spain, and I danced it, and it was amazing.

Dolores Semeraro:

If everything can be turned into a precious memory, which is ultimately what the what travelers bring home, you know, and they say, Well, this is this is what I did. This is how I felt. This is what I ate. The step into really traveling sustainably is very, very little, because when you are into that, when you are immersed in experiences that are locally made, locally crafted, they involve a certain range of, you know, manpower and people that are employed within the local community, you are already acting sustainably. So I think what we need to do, and what I'm hoping to do with the podcast, is also to to demystify this big word that is sustainable travel. In many cases, we do travel sustainably. We just are not aware of it because we have made this concept such a big, you know, goal, or a target for the industry to go forward to that that we forget how to break it down to simple steps for people say, go, Oh, I'm really doing it. Is it me? So I think thanks to the work that you do and the and the support that you give to destinations, this really can happen and will happen as if it's happening already.

Anne de Jong:

So even though people don't think they're traveling sustainably, they might for certain aspects, and not all of it, because they will still go to souvenir shop that's commercialized or but there are small aspects in it, and the destinations role here is to make sure that, and this is also something that we teach in our sustainable marketing program, is you have to sell sustainability without selling sustainability. So what you're selling is not a sustainable trip or a sustainable holiday. You're selling a holiday that where you can taste local products or where you can experience local culture, or where you can enjoy the beautiful nature reserve on bike and have a great local picnic somewhere. So you're not saying this is a sustainable experience. You're saying this is an amazing experience because this is what they will bring you as a traveler. And oh, it's also sustainable. And on the side, the travelers are looking for again, experiences. They're not looking for sustainability, but it will definitely be a bonus if it's good for people on planet, in product development or in marketing, you have to change the narrative. You have to turn it around. Focus on what's in it for the traveler in a background, always do good for people, planet profit. Make sure that it's always non negotiable, but in the way you communicate it.

Dolores Semeraro:

Yeah, I love that point of selling sustainable without saying that is sustainable, this word that that creates so much space pressure, win and pressure exactly. I love that. Yes, what are the sustainable practices that that's the hardest ones that the destination just are really having hard time at embracing?

Anne de Jong:

Yeah. So also, in my experience with working with green destinations, that's a certification scheme for destinations to be more sustainable, is that often what they're struggling with is to actually put in place measurements or rules guidelines for better destination management, for example, to avoid over tourism, protect nature, and then actually also to keep that because you have, for example, Metro Petri that has A maximum people that are allowed on the trail, but they're ignoring it. So the intention was good, but they're not following the actual measurement, same as, for example, Iceland just closed one of their highlights because they felt it was too busy and caused negative effects to the environment. But they're losing, well, not losing income. But, I mean, they are removing one of the highlights for conservation purposes. So they're removing it from the traveling experience, and they're choosing nature over visitors. And that is hard to do. I mean, that are these are tough decisions, and you have to be completely in it to be able to be brave enough to make these decisions with that, you have to be making sure that your local businesses are in it too. So you can't be as a destination focused on writing all these policies if your local businesses or locals are not in it with you, because they have so much impact on the actual operation of sustainability. So it needs to be in collaboration and making sure that you're involved in them, in the decision making. So it's not about just telling them what to do. It's asking them, okay, this is what we want to achieve. What do you think you can do? And again, changing the way you look at it, to not top down, but bottom up, and to really, yeah, collaborate in that. And again, the visitor satisfaction and the inhabitant satisfaction often forgotten, especially linked to sustainability. Again, if the marketing and communication isn't clear enough is it not clear what you're doing. And on the one hand, you see destinations that are it's kind of an overkill. They're throwing around the word sustainability so often that you have no clue what they're actually doing, or they don't mention it at all. And you're kind of wondering like, yeah, do they even care? Or what's happening. So being transparent and practical in your communication and customer oriented is very important.

Dolores Semeraro:

to close the podcast on, on a word of wisdom from Anne when it comes to, let's say, people listening to the podcast and thinking, Okay, I really should do something about it. And, and, and they're reflecting, and really just they're mingling, not really taking any decision, not knowing where to start. What would be your word of wisdom for them to to ease into that decision?

Anne de Jong:

Well, I think what's most important is to think about and that comes from our sustainable marketing framework like, why are you focused on sustainability? What do you want to achieve? Is that making your destination more sustainable? Is that communicating about it better? Is that involving your your local businesses more to start there, and based on that, you can either go for certification, you can go with an individual consultant to help you, or you can focus on your marketing. And that's also Yeah, to link back to what I said earlier about how I see the future unfolding. Is that sustainability becomes standard. The more travel of businesses and destinations are focused on sustainability. You have to be really clear about why are you working on sustainability, and what is it that you're doing to be able to get stand out from the competition, to be really sure about this is what we do, and to use that and leverage in your in your marketing, in your sustainable development, to really focus on doing better every day, and not just because it's a competition, because you will do better for the world. And yeah, if you have travelers that have an amazing experience because of that, well, that is a win, win situation, yeah, and I mentioned it before, our sustainable marketing program will really help you develop a sustainable marketing strategy, and is especially developed for those that are already working on sustainability, because obviously, you can't communicate about sustainability if you're not in it for the right reasons.

Dolores Semeraro:

Thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. I think we've touched upon a few things that would probably require a whole different conversation, per se, and the door is always open. And truth behind travel. If there is any other topic or conversation that you feel we need to have if you want to bring someone else on the podcast, also Okay, and let's hear it. So thank you so much, Anne for joining me and all the best for everything that is happening and will be happening soon to you with your move. So all the best.

Anne de Jong:

Thank you so much. It was great to be here.