Women Leading The Way: the Global Travel & Tourism Roundtable

Dolores Semeraro moderates the virtual gathering of speakers from Season 4 of Truth Behind Travel Podcast in "Women Leading The Way: the Global Travel & Tourism Roundtable" in collaboration with the Institute of Tourism

Watch the video: "Women Leading The Way: the Global Travel & Tourism Roundtable"

Drawing on their diverse expertise and lived experience, this experts-led discussion weaves bold ideas with practical insights, exploring how tourism can move beyond sustainability and towards regeneration.

In a spirit of collaboration and candor, they challenge dominant narratives, share lessons from the field, and collectively reimagine travel as a force for positive impact on communities, ecosystems, and the industry at large.

Leading speakers of the Roundtable: 

Carmen Roberts - BBC travel journalist and travel media expert

Tina O'Dwyer - Founder of The Tourism Space

Vanessa Karell - Founder of Greether

Anne de Jong - co-founder of The Good Tourism Institute

Sarah Payne - Director of Impact at Untours Foundation

Lola Akinmade - Author, Travel Media Personality of the Year, Reporter

Jennine Cohen and Catherine Gallagher - Founders of Women Travel Leaders

Iris Serbanescu - Founder of WMNS WORK

Caterina Varao - Founder of Unique Stays

Sonia Gottlebe - Sustainable Tourism Advocate, Madagascar

Host of Truth Behind Travel Podcast, Dolores Semeraro is a sought-after international tourism keynote speaker and sustainable tourism marketing professional. 

Dolores actively works in the tourism and travel conference space as a keynote speaker and moderator, gracing the stages of international tourism summits and trade shows. 

As a professional keynote speaker, Dolores’ speaking topics encompass sustainability in tourism, digital marketing and how to identify today’s traveler’s needs through technology and innovation.

5 years ago, Dolores launched her podcast show named ‘Truth Behind Travel Podcast’ where she regularly interviews tourism and travel industry leaders and representatives on how to rebuild the future of travel.

www.doloressemeraro.com

dolores@doloressemeraro.com

Instagram @dolores_semeraro

LinkedIn @dolores.sem

Transcript

Dolores Semeraro: 0:01

Welcome to Truth Behind Travel Podcast, a platform for tourism, travel and hospitality professionals and enthusiasts to share, learn and unlearn, what we need to create better tourism, protect the environment and become better humans. I'm your host, Dolores Semeraro, and every week, I bring on a podcast the voices of those out there making a difference to learn the hard truth behind the world of travel and tourism, what works and what we can collectively do better. Welcome to Truth Behind travel. 2026 new year, new season. We're dedicating it to exploring and discussing how people travel, why and how we can read between the lines to understand the bigger travel picture. Welcome to a very special episode of truth behind travel podcast, after the success of season four, all the guest speaker that I've hosted on the podcast have gathered for a very special virtual session in collaboration with the Institute of Tourism and its president, Reza Soltani, during the virtual session, which was live on Institute of tourism.com and its YouTube channel, all the guest speaker of Season 4 shared insights, value and wisdom across four specific segments, Travel media and impact with Carmen Roberts and Lola Akinmade Regenerative Tourism with Tina O'Dwyer, Sonia Gottlebe and Anne De Jong Community tourism & support with Sarah Payne, Jennine Cohen and Catherine Gallagher Innovation and inclusion with Iris Serbanescu, Vanessa Karell and Catarina Varao. Many of these names are very familiar to you. You may find the interviews of each one of them on the podcast during Season 4, and during today's episode, I'm re sharing with you the content of the virtual roundtable that was live on Institute of tourism.com - each segment has specific questions for leading speakers, which I will introduce time by time, and I leave it on to you to enjoy the wisdom, the wealth of knowledge and experience that the speakers have shared during the roundtable. Let's start with Travel Media and Impact with Carmen Roberts and Lola Akinmade. Should destination storytelling be treated as a strategic national asset, and if so, how can governments ensure that media narratives reflect authenticity rather than overcome commercialization?

Lola Akinmade: 2:51

It can be treated as a strategic asset, because that's what shapes the global perception of a destination, which, in turn, translates into revenue, but with a caveat. Transparency and authenticity. Because we are living in very challenging times right now where there's a battle for control of narratives and increasing kind of lack of transparency across the board when it comes to truth telling. So for destinations to be able to say "we're going to tell our own story" they're going to have to do it in a less gimmicky, more authentic way, because nowadays, gimmick denotes distraction. Gone are the days where we could just have gimmicky campaigns, but now, when somebody is doing something gimmicky, then we're saying,"what are they distracting us from?"

Carmen Roberts: 3:48

I totally agree, this is such an important question, and of course in an ideal world, strategic national storytelling is a strategic national asset, but it's easier said than done, isn't it? You've got a lot of elements at play, but I think what is key to this is authenticity, but also to include the local voices in your storytelling and also the gatekeepers, the governments, the PR people, getting people to tell their stories, the journalists, the content creators. You've got to be careful on who you choose. You've got to be representative, but you've also got to make sure that this is the correct voice for your for your brand. And I can't help but think about Japan. I lived in Japan for eight years, and I seen the whole cycle of when I first went to Japan in 2005, they were so desperate for tourists. And then when I moved there in 2014 and I was there till 2022 I saw the slow evolution. How Japan became more accessible, more popular amongst international tourists. And then, I know this sounds cliche, but it's the ultimate culture clash. You know, Japan is a very considered and polite culture, and then when you have mass tourism coming in, there's all sorts of clashing happening. And then a prime example is the Kyoto Cherry Blossom Festival this year, it had to be canceled because of mass tourists, all these tourists that are coming in, are being disrespectful, and the locals in Japan have decided that we're going to have to close this very popular Cherry Blossom Festival, so that's a real shame.

Anne de Jong: 5:45

I was just gonna say, that's what happens when we focus on "exposure campaigns" over, "long term impact storytelling", where we are not focusing on just identity, heritage, values, and saying"What's the latest trend?" "What can we come up on to stay relevant?" And that's what causes this kind of mumbled, unclear messaging from a destination. Because to stay relevant, I have to do something that makes me memorable, which can also be the antithesis of what you're trying to do, which is showcase yourself authentically.

Dolores Semeraro: 6:24

So how can public institutions collaborate with travel media to promote lesser known regions without triggering that unsustainable growth?

Carmen Roberts: 6:38

I think this is a real delicate balance that you have to strike. But again, I come back to having the authentic local voices that are helping tell this narrative. You've got to to make the link with the journalists, the institutions, the tour operators that are bringing tourists in and telling the story, you've got to have that connection with local people, people who live there, who are really impacted by this business, and it goes back to them also benefiting financially from tourism. It's sort of a holistic approach, if that makes sense. And I think that is really, really key that you've got local people involved in this conversation.

Lola Akinmade: 7:28

And I agree. And I think you know, there are two ways of telling stories. There is, this is who I am, and then there is, this is why you need to come visit me. The first one says, This is who I am. Accept me as I am. If it connects, you're more than welcome to visit me, and that comes with some kind of reverence, versus, this is why you should come see me, right? And there are many ways, you know, destinations can kind of focus from these kind of just exposure driven, you know, marketing to more impact is it could be investing in seasonal storytelling, you know, emphasizing your culture, analyzing visitor stats, and then just tapping into other demographics. And I'll give you an example from my own backyard, here in Stockholm. So last year I launched, I kind of expanded literary tourism in the city. We've got the Stig Lassen millennial trilogy, we've got Astrid Lindgren, and last year, we launched the Stockholm book club tour right partnering with a woman led experience company, bringing book clubs to explore the city from a different angle, focusing on culture history and, above all, community, right? And so what we're doing, in that way, was adding another layer of storytelling to Stockholm, beyond FICA, you know, or or cinnamon bonds by people that truly invested and and so those are kind of ways, by just not just going back to the things that have been promoted to that, but saying, You know what? What are other demographics? What are they? What do they truly value? Because if they value that with reverence, then they're going to come do it with reverence in your destination, right? And so those are just some examples of ways where governments can do that in terms of partnering, but also investing in independent tourism and sorry, journalism and independent reporting, because if I say, my values, these are my values, then I'm not going to be scared if an International Documentary comes to Create something in my backyard because my values match what I'm saying publicly. So those are things like destinations have to think about as well.

Dolores Semeraro: 9:48

How can governments ensure that AI driven travel discovery and travel prompts and recommendations does not marginalize smaller destinations or even culturally sensitive communities?

Lola Akinmade: 10:03

To add some framework, whether we like it or not. AI is yet to stay now, how we show up and interact with it is what's most important. You know, how can we in this new ecosystem ensure that our values, our traditions, the things that we find important are part of this ecosystem moving forward. And with every transition in media during like the media landscape, there will always be pushback, right? So where there's going to be growing pains, there's going to be legitimate concerns, but it's going to happen that revolution or the evolution is going to happen, whether we like it or not. And it takes me back to the days when, you know the travel journalists who are mad about travel bloggers, and then travel bloggers were mad about travel influencers, and then photographers were mad about Instagram photographers, right? It's an evolution. Now this means, because it's yet to stay, how can we make sure that what's important to us, our values, are part of that content generation. How can we make sure that the lesser known destinations are making sure their content, their voices, are put in there, and we don't introduce bias? And so from my own end, I think that's when governments have to look at AI as advocates, as an advocacy issue, how can I advocate to make sure that what I find important to me is in that system, because I'm not left behind when we evolve. So I just wanted to kind of throw that eye level in there.

Carmen Roberts: 11:37

I totally agree. I think AI is here to stay, and it's how we use it and how we harness it that's really going to matter. And I've seen a lot of destinations and tourist boards using AI on their front facing customers websites. So if you type in something, you know, for instance, some American websites have been using this in the lead up to the World Cup, answering basic questions from their own internal AI that is answering FAQs, I guess, and into a degree. So that is one way that governments can control that AI narrative. But what I would hope that I would see, we might be seeing a bit of a backlash amongst discerning tourists and travelers who who want to seek out the authenticity, who who can see AI for what it is, and then also use that as a starting point, but not the be all and end all. So then you use that as your starting point, and then you seek out the local stories, the the authenticity, and go beyond the just the surface level content.

Dolores Semeraro: 12:55

Thank you, Carmen, we have inputs from Anne, over to you.

Anne de Jong: 12:59

So I think a lot of destinations forget that if the storytelling kind of runs ahead of their practices, or they don't really present what's actual true, like not connected to the local community, or not really focused on responsible tourism, that it can actually become a liability. So for example, I live in Bali, and we all know how Bali is presented worldwide, and there's definitely a beautiful side of Bali which is over commercialized, and there are a lot of glossy campaigns, but when travelers actually visit Bali, they're sometimes or often disappointed, because there's also obviously a downside of Bali, heavy traffic, construction and all the other things that you don't see on social media. And if it becomes a liability like this, it makes people lose trust. There's so many people saying, I don't want to go to Bali. Bali is ruined. But if you actually know where to find the right places. It's still a beautiful island, and I think trust is really hard to rebuild than it is to lose. So I think destination should definitely keep in mind that storytelling becomes a liability, so you have to treat it very carefully.

Dolores Semeraro: 14:16

Thank you. Carmen Roberts and Lola Akinmade for contributing to the first segment of the Roundtable dedicated to Travel Media and Impact. Now over to the second segment, dedicated to Regenerative Tourism. Our speakers for the segment are Tina O'Dwyer, founder of The Tourism Space, Anne de Jong, co-founder of The Good Tourism Institute, and Sonia Gottlebe from Madagascar, pioneer of tourism in Madagascar and sustainable tourism advocate. Thank you for being here. And the first question is, how do we measure regeneration in concrete terms and which new indicators should replace the most traditional KPIs, like arrivals and occupancy. We start with Tina O'Dwyer.

Tina O'Dwyer: 15:11

I don't think we can replace the traditional indicators we're probably seeking, because we are where we are. We're not going to replace what has defined the tourism industry forever, which is, as you say, arrivals and occupancy. I think in tourism, we're selling people and places ultimately, but we don't have a metric to match those. Arrivals is like people crossing borders, crossing ports, crossing airports. Occupancy is a business indicator, but we just it's not rocket science to think what we might measure for people and place, vitality, for example. So we could mention for people, host sentiment, local business confidence, ecological values, locally, quality of jobs locally, percentage of youth, people staying locally in their environment. Really, we're trying, so they're all I'm naming those as numerical metrics because we are quite caught in tourism in numerical metrics. But really, we're looking at proxies for how healthy and vibrant a place where tourism takes place really is, and numbers are not an indication of that, and I'll share just a tiny short story, because I was with a group yesterday who who are based in one of Ireland's most visited and most successful destinations in terms of metrics, and they were discussing a regenerative course by US has been commissioned by a local tourism organ or sporting organization, and they said that their measure of success for tourism in their area, they've high footfall, is the number of children enrolled in the primary schools, because that is an indicator for the number of members that will be in their club for their sporting and how successful they can be. And it's a traditional Irish sport, so I thought it's, it's blindingly simple. It's a metric we can measure, and it's a really good indicator of how resilient and healthy a place is. So there's just a few we could use.

Dolores Semeraro: 17:13

Thank you, Tina, and now the inputs from Sonja.

Sonja Gottlebe: 17:18

It is very much a question of perspective, perspective of northern or southern hemisphere of where tourism takes place, right? Because regenerative tourism in I would really, really use very carefully this, this definition. But if, if you are practicing tourism in poor developing countries. The this concept is not even existing. So it's, it's an even an unknown buzzword. It's, we just talk about tourism. We hope to have tourists from time to time, and we so the metrics are really the basic, most basic metrics, like GDP and how many jobs are generated, how much food it it gives for, for how many people so and also the donors we are. We very much rely on on donors, on institutions. They push us to use these metrics as well, because that's how they they measure the tourism in this type of countries, in this type of destinations, unfortunately, so. But I totally agree that we should need, we really need other KPIs, and we do not live for rating, right? So I think tourism in in any concept should the most important KPI is the resident's perception in tourism. So the it's even a concept that has been formalized in French Polynesia. So this type of, I will not go into detail, but there are many informations on the Tahiti website. So the perception of tourism is the priority and is the key to success.

Dolores Semeraro: 19:08

Thank you. Sonia.

Anne de Jong: 19:09

For example, in Madagascar, they don't know regenerative tourism, but they know tourism, and they want to do it well for their destination. And I do feel that I sometimes have issues with companies or travel businesses going into the regenerative movement, seeing it as the next big thing, but basically how I see it, it's kind of the same practices, but just wrapped in different terminology. So we all want locals to directly benefit and thrive from tourism. We want nature and wildlife to be protected and restored. We want travelers to contribute positively. Have businesses profit from positive impact. So I do think that new technology can help generate momentum, and I do see there's a lot of excitement again. About doing the right thing. I think people kind of got bored about the term of sustainability, but yeah, I think what truly sets destinations apart is not the wording, but it's really action, accountability and measurable results. And then what you say about the KPIs? So I also work with green destinations certification scheme, and what we focus on there, and obviously see a lot of destinations doing this really well, is measuring the tourism revenue staying in the destination, so actually measuring leakage, so really focusing on what is actually benefiting the local economy. Also, I think Sonia mentioned that as well, is the resident satisfaction score. So how do locals feel about tourism? It's actually measure that consistently and kind of keep track of how they feel about receiving travelers. And also, what we look at this is project I'm doing in Indonesia. Is more about travel behavior. So how can you ensure that travelers adapt their behavior in a way that it what contributes to good tourism? And you can also measure that. So where do travelers stay? Do they go off the beaten track? Or, for example, it could be as simple as a longer average stay of length of stay per traveler. So you know that they can actually contribute to tourism. But I also agree, I think what Tina said is that we have to keep the existing KPIs to ensure that it's still an economy, so we have to also think about that. But I think it's a really great addition to also look into, yeah, what do residents feel and what are travelers doing?

Tina O'Dwyer: 21:53

Very few populations, no matter what hemisphere they're in, very few local host communities use or understand or have heard of the word regenerative, no matter where you were. It's a term that's being used by those who are not on the ground. And I don't believe it's just a shift in term. I think a regenerative I think communities instinctively speak the language of regeneration, without any intellectualization of that. They say what they regard as thriving for their place. The challenge is, we're not asking places, what what do you regard as success here? In some of my projects, I get to do that, and in some I don't, and I don't do the ones anymore where somebody at least hasn't asked that question, what does thriving look like here? Because that is the first question local people will say, like, my example yesterday, it's members in my sports club. So that's not fancy language. That's just the best possible indicator you're going to get for their vitality. So if people, if we're going to ask that question, we're going to get regenerative outcomes. The problem is, we're starting with, how do we get more visitors here? So we're in a numbers debate from the beginning, and even with certifications saying, let's ask the residents, let's number jobs, let's do all of that. They're outside metrics by outside people, and they're all economic. There is none that are actually about the heart and soul of the place and the people, and it's only in recent years you wouldn't be regarded as crazy for even suggesting that. But we are actually in rooms now where people speak about what it feels to be there and how to measure that, what they want to pass on for future generations, what they value about having received. And I think those things are not unmeasurable, and they're also not buzzwords. They're and different places another place will not say members in their sports club. They'll say, we don't want our stories to die, you know. So it's really quite different, and it has to emerge from the place, no matter what you call that. We have to start with locals naming their own success version, and then asking, Can tourism help us achieve it? It may not. Tourism may not even be the solution, you know? So we're several steps ahead.

Dolores Semeraro: 24:03

Thank you, Tina. We have some inputs from Catherine Gallagher.

Catherine Gallagher: 24:08

Who's actually measuring this anyway? And how can we like, going back to the first point around telling stories, how can we tell more stories? And do we need metrics, or do we need stories? Can stories replace metrics?

Dolores Semeraro: 24:23

Anne would you like to get this question?

Anne de Jong: 24:27

Oh, I just think that both. I think both are equally important. I don't think we can rely on numbers only because you need the stories. You need the actual context, but we also need to have transparency. We need to be able to to show evidence of that this is actually the case, I think we need, and I think that's also with the Consumer Protection Act, the green claims directive. It's all about actually proving that you are generating or creating positive impact. And I think that is we shouldn't. Stick to the numbers only. It's not just proving whatever you do. Stories are really important, but it should definitely be a combination. So I think I would say equally important.

Dolores Semeraro: 25:10

Thank you, Anne. And we're going on to the second question for the segment, are governments prepared to implement bold measures for true sustainable growth. And what do you see on your side?

Anne de Jong: 25:25

I think destinations want to but I do think it's a slow movement. I do think main the most destinations are still focused on arrival, and numbers are really focused on getting as many people in destination. And I also feel that they define success like that. So I think should be like a whole mindset shift, that they realize that too many travelers are actually ruining a certain image, or actually destination itself. And I do think a lot of well, a lot there are destinations that are moving in the right direction, so they're implementing zoning Protected Area management, but it does require political how to say that courage, and I do think a lot of destinations are not fully Ready to do that.

Tina O'Dwyer: 26:20

Yeah, I'd agree with that, and I do, at the same time, have quite a lot of empathy for governments, ministers DMOS in the current situation, given that I feel that we're in a new era of tourism, where tourism is navigating towards something that is going to be more positive and contributory. I think the demand is coming from society for that. And if I was in charge of a DMO right now, I am expected to deliver numbers, marketing campaigns, you know, GDP, but I'm also expected to deliver community vitality, ecological value, collaboration, all this stuff that maybe I never was an expert in and now I'm at the top of the pile, and I now charged with doing this. And the challenge is that the expectations of what tourism should deliver have changed, but the metrics haven't caught up yet. And a lot of policies are five years old. You know, they're five year cycles for, you know, which is ridiculous anyway, to measure place in five year cycles, but that policies change slowly, and until a policy changes, those senior people are bound by what's in their policy. So if we look at what's changed from 2021 to 2026 we were in covid in 2021 AI has happened in the meantime, the wars have happened, and that policy hasn't changed, but tourism has changed massively. So I do have a big amount, a large amount. I think there's a lot of courageous people. Think there's a lot of frustrated people at the head of these and I think it's, it's quite, it's quite a challenge to turn that ship when policy changes so slowly. Yeah, I think it's a tough one. I think, I think there's willingness, but, and also, because tourism isn't a standalone industry, it's connected to so much else. A lot of a lot of government departments need to change, not just a tourism department, for example, and to do that in tandem. So it's very complex. Yeah.

Dolores Semeraro: 28:16

Thank you, Tina. We have an input from Jennine Cohen, co founder of Women Travel Leaders.

Jennine Cohen: 28:21

So this, this is not a topic related specifically to Women Travel Leaders or women and travel but, but travel at large. So I'm calling in from Baja California, sur in Mexico, and it's an interesting case study with what's happening here with regards to marine conservation. And this, this question of politics and metrics, it's, it's beyond at just kind of the DMO level or the or the national level, because you have many of these, you know, many countries, most countries around the world, are large. They're nuanced. And there are, you know, a variety of destinations within a country. So take, you know, Mexico as an example. So you've got, it's such an incredibly complex ecosystem of politics that are happening layered on, you know, not to mention in places like Latin America, corruption, political interest, etc. So you've got basically people at the, you know, we've been talking about metrics and this kind of obsession with metrics and reporting. And also several people mentioned, kind of people coming from the outside, and what is the measure of success in these small communities. And yet, you know, I've been living this life here, found for the last six years in Baja, California, sir in a small fishing village in Mexico, where you've got, you know, people in politics at the national level in Mexico City who are like, completely disconnected from what's happening in the small fishing village, trying to make a policy that works for a tiny village, which. Where the tiny village has its own ecosystem of hierarchy and and motivation and economic interests and and, you know, and personalities and marine life is, I mean, it's so incredibly complicated. And I think sometimes, if we're talking about at a super zoomed out level, we often forget about what several people mentioned, of what's really happening on the ground, and how is that in the country, kind of connected and creating a system that literally cannot keep up with the rate of change that's happening around the world to do what's required because of this web of complexity that's happening so and I don't think it's necessarily a unique story to Mexico, but it's, I think it's one that is worth noting when we're kind of talking from a more academic perspective, or a global perspective, to really remember the complexity of what's happening at the national level versus the regional level as well.

Dolores Semeraro: 31:01

Thank you, Jennine, and we have Sonia back

Sonja Gottlebe: 31:06

I think that, yes, in so that's the reason why I'm here, right from my perspective, again, living in Madagascar and even in nosi Bay, in the most touristic place of Madagascar, the government is not, is not prepared for even, not even really, for tourism, and because they are mostly chasing money and chasing, I mean, like investors from anywhere and so unfortunately, they are not any zoning. I mean, they are protected zones like national parks. That's true, because the biodiversity in Madagascar is the most precious treasure we have. But beside those, those are national parks. They are not tourism Can, can happen anywhere, almost anywhere, and very often they they without considering communities, if, if a place is nice and an investor want it, he can take it. That's what we experienced here last year, here in the place I'm living very close. So from my perspective, in this type of context, I mean, governments are not inclined to curb tourist arrivals or to reduce foreign exchange earnings, you know, to protect any particular area. So unfortunately, but as biodiversity hotspot, our international visitors expect, I mean, they expect, well protected and regulated sites. So that is the compromise. That is the difficulty for to operate, or any touristic stakeholder to satisfy that side, and to make, I mean proper, let's say proper marketing as well, to sell. You see my beautiful Baobab forest behind me? That's our we have these iconic trees. People want to see them. So I try to sell this place. It's very difficult to go there and and it's not protected. So from time to time, from time to time, it's completely burnt down. But these trees survive to fire because they are full with storing water. So that is the reality on the field sometimes.

Dolores Semeraro: 33:27

Thank you, Tina, Sonia and Anne for contributing to the regenerative tourism segment of the Roundtable. We are now on the third segment of the conversation where we are going to explore Community and Support with leading speakers, Sarah Payne, the Director of impact of Untours Foundation, Jennine Cohen, and Catherine Gallagher, the founders of Women Travel Leaders. So we start off with the first question for this segment, and

we look into: 33:57

what are the leadership capabilities that you foresee as a non negotiable in a tourism and travel industry today that is increasingly shaped by automation and data intelligence? So we start with Catherine.

Catherine Gallagher: 34:15

Yeah, I'm going to start with a question, actually, to everyone on the call to put in the chat, Dolores, if you don't mind, but on the on the word leadership, if have a think about someone that's inspired you in a leadership role, and think about the words that you would use to describe them and pop them in the chat, compassionate, listening, present, empathetic, supportive, collaborative, kind, confident, friendly and so innovative, empathetic, good communicator. So yeah, I basically absolutely that community and leadership in person is absolutely non negotiable. If that answer. So that's Yeah answers that question.

Jennine Cohen: 35:02

I want to piggyback on what Catherine's saying here, and what I think what she's getting at is, in a time of AI and in a time of metrics and reporting, we talk a lot about things like regenerative tourism. Someone said here it was just kind of a repackaging of what we're already doing and that thing that we're doing, of those people, if you look at, well, who is it in my life that I'm really inspired by? Who do I really admire, and it's most often the people really who are doing it from the heart. So I mentioned the heart because this is actually a panel on female leadership, and all of us on this planet have an opportunity and a responsibility to connect with our hearts, and we as women are the stewards of this beautiful planet. That's one of our responsibilities, I believe, to bring beauty into the world and and maybe that sounds a little old school, but, but beauty is is also in part of honoring what is already there and supporting it and loving it, and letting whatever we do as leaders come from the heart. Now that may sound a little spiritual, woo, woo out there, whatever you want to call it, but it's really just talking about, we could say the same thing in terms of purpose led, right? I mean, that is a more kind of business friendly way to say it. But when we're in our heads and we're thinking maybe a little bit too much on an out of balance, and in the in the masculine, in black and white, this or that, this work, this didn't it was good. It was bad. We're not really seeing the big picture in terms of of the ecosystem, of the general support of of of ecosystems, or or social systems. And that's where women are just biologically wired differently. We're always seeing the community. We're always thinking in subtleties. We don't see things hierarchically. We don't see things in terms of a linear path or of I'm the leader, you're the follower. It's we're all co creating this together. So if it's a co creation, how do we really want to show up? How do we want to feel in our body? How do we want to feel about the way that we're connecting with others, about the way that we're showing up in this world? Because we're all going back to the earth eventually, anyway. So if that's where we're going, why not really keep it close to the ground and connected with the planet and with each other? So that's what we really strive to create. It women, travel leaders. It's really not about ego. It's not about reporting, and it's not about being in your head or having anything to prove. It's about how am I showing up in community? Because AI is working for us, not the other way around. So how can we leverage that to really lean in and do this thing together?

Dolores Semeraro: 38:03

beautifully put Jennine and Sarah over to you.

Sarah Payne: 38:07

Yeah, I'll just piggyback off that. I think we've all talked about the limitations of AI, you know, in terms of getting that like local texture and real feel. And I have a lot of personal thoughts about AI, but as you were just mentioning, Janine, it's a tool, and it's a tool that has to be used by humans still have this leadership set that includes these soft skills that, in my mind, are irreplaceable. You know that is qualitatively different than when you have a human being making decisions than AI, and so I think that's part of the key here is, how are, how are leaders, human leaders, going to continue to make decisions and use this as a tool. AI can help us gather a lot of data all in one place, and very quickly, more efficiently than I could, but someone still needs to be able to sift through all of that data, know the conditions on the ground, have personal relationships with people they trust that can tell you about the situation on the ground so that you can make the right decisions and have that ethical framework to do that. And so I think again, we have to focus on this as a tool, and even go beyond, you know, thinking about data driven to maybe it's just data informed, right? Like, we need to keep humans at the forefront of this, talking about the industry, because humans are the backbone of this industry and of this world. But like, we can't forget that. We have to keep that in the forefront of our mind. And again, just to reiterate, it's a tool. It can't replace human leadership. And I love what you said, too about feminine leadership and the ability to see these nuances, as we've mentioned. This is a very complex world. There are a lot of dominoes that need to fall in order to have the right things happen in destinations. And again, that requires like a brain that that thinks in these webs and intricacies and and knows the trade offs and can balance all of that, and that's just not replaceable by technology. I hope and I believe.

Dolores Semeraro: 39:51

And now to the second question of the segment, how should we redefine success across Travel and Tourism entrepreneurs beyond revenue? And what metrics should replace the most traditional KPIs here. Jennine, over to you.

Jennine Cohen: 40:06

I'm really keen to jump in on this one. Dolores. So you mentioned the word perform, you know. And again, that comes from a place of here, of the head, I'm it's from an external kind of motivation. And really what it comes back to here. What is this thing? How do I feel when I'm doing this thing? Do I feel expansive? Do I feel to the people that I'm connecting with? Do they feel joyful? It's all about, you know, success? Is it? Is it metrics, or is it the the feeling, you know, feeling is not it's, it's, it's not data, you know, it's to me to be you could say, Yeah, we could measure the feeling. Of course, we can measure feelings. But it's not, it's not something, it's not really about math, right? It's, it's, can I learn that's another form of being expansive. Can I feel equal parts energized and motivated and excited about this? And how does it move the needle forward in a way that feels easeful for me, right? Because we know that when we're surrounded by the right people and we're in the right places, in the right moment that things just it's almost that I can just relax into this, in my knowing that I'm on the right path, when things start to really feel tenuous, and we feel like we're a fish swimming upstream, and we feel like we're pushing that boulder uphill, whether it's you Know, we feel like we're starting to work against instead of together in collaboration, whether it be with tourism boards or DMOS or or other, you know, competitors, which we don't really believe in, and women travel leaders. We know that we're not really coming from a place of flow. We're not really on the path where we're meant to be. And that's the grace, that's the grace is the feminine of coming into that place of just being able to step back and coming in gently, and that's where the real power is, and when we're able to shift that mindset together as a collective The power is in the ease. It doesn't always have to be so hard.

Catherine Gallagher: 42:19

Yeah, I think we need to move away from this obsession with growth and growth for growth sake. And if I think that all of the most of the members in our community, the most of them are small business owners, they they truly care about what they do. They want to have an impact and and it's not about, oh, how much they're not trying to do for buildings, for shareholder profits. And, you know, yes, they need to make money, and that's really, really important. And you can have some, you know, your even more positive impact through that, that I'd really love. And this is where community comes in as well. For us to be collectively thriving together, it's much better for each one of us as well, as well as the environment, the land, the people, the places that we're we're talking about. So yeah, I think we need to collectively move towards balance and thriving together and away from growth for growth sake.

Sarah Payne: 43:20

Yeah, I 100% agree. Catherine through you saying, even as an impact or investor in this space, like growth for growth sake is not what we're looking for. And I don't really like to talk about even scale that often. I just want to add here I think, like there's one KPI that is very important to elevate. And on our most recent impact survey of all of our portfolio companies, we included this question is, what was your percentage of local spending in destinations, and do you formally track that? Because I think that again, tourism, and if you're an entrepreneur of a tourism business, you depend on the health of that destination, or destinations for your business. So from a business case, that destination has to be thriving, from a moral case, of course, that has to be there, because we are visiting these communities. I was at a recent gathering at crest, the Center for Responsible tourism, and it just kind of occurred to me. I was like, we're talking we're not talking about tourism, we're talking about community development here. And so we really need to focus the well being of these communities, and how much not you're spending even nationally, in the country or regionally, but how much is going back to even drivers that are from those specific communities where you're visiting, where is your food coming from, that you're giving to your guests? And so I think, like we really, if we're talking about KPIs, this is one that I really want to see elevated, because, as we've said throughout this call so far, it is about local agency. It is about these communities deciding what kind of tourism they want for themselves. Do they want you to visit your their communities? How do they want you to visit their communities? If we are not doing that, we are practicing colonialism. And so I think if we're thinking about KPIs, I really want to elevate that one, and because it's a good all these other ones that we've mentioned are important. And special ones that Tina shared in the chat. So check those out. But yeah, I think it's a really good proxy for are you thinking in the right way? Are you really committed to seeing these destinations be better off? If we're talking about regenerative travel, that is what it means. Did you leave it better off? And how are you going to measure that? And it's a really good way to look at that.

Dolores Semeraro: 45:17

And the last question to the segment, how can the power of global networks create a systematic change, rather than isolated success stories? Over to you, Sarah,

Sarah Payne: 45:30

yeah, I think for us, you know, our big thing is the power of SMEs, along with the rest of the impact businesses. But 80% of this industry is small to medium size enterprises, and so so our, you know, intervention is specifically capital as well as, you know, one on one, support with these businesses to help them grow in the ways that they want to and the ways that destinations want to grow. And so I think part of our role is bringing visibility to that, to these, these smaller actors who are absolutely doing the right things, whether they call it regenerative or not, if they're doing it, we should be talking about it. We should be holding them up. And so I think there's power in aggregating that. Our reset tourism fund portfolio was over 50 businesses strong, and so we get to talk about that as a collective and the impact across the portfolio, and drive that attention back to the practitioners that are doing this well and that we need to see replicated across the world in different contexts. I'll leave it there because I'm curious for Catherine to jump in as well.

Catherine Gallagher: 46:26

I completely agree with everything you said, the power of small to sum it up, and I put in the chat a quote by Margaret Mead, which is Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has so I think you know where I'm going with that, but it's like Power to the people, to these small businesses and to these amazing women, so many of us that are on this call today.

Dolores Semeraro: 46:52

Thank you for this beautiful conversation on the third segment, and now the last segment of the Roundtable dedicated to Innovation and Inclusion, with leading speakers, Iris Serbanescu, the founder of WMNS WORK, Vanessa Karell, the founder of Greether, and Catarina Varao, the founder of Unique Stays in Portugal. So the first questions for the speaker is, if tourism was redesigned today as a community, first tool to develop, what structural change would you implement immediately? Hello, Catarina, and over to you.

Catarina Varao: 47:35

Hello, everyone. So lucky to be here, and I feel thrilled to be with so many brilliant minds, and a lot has been said about this subject. And if I may start, if you excuse me, I think the communities are the center of everything, and as you've been sad today, we need, we have the responsibility to showcase what, what is the value of what locals are doing, because we are as companies that implement and settle for my for instance, I'm thinking about, you are an hotel. You're opening your hotel in a certain place. You have the responsibility to showcase the artisans, not just exploit them or use them for what it takes. And communities are economic actors. They are not just cultural ornaments. They are not just cultural ornaments. So they are people. They have their value. They have their own identity, ownership. And this is not something that you steal or use as a marketing and and put it as a storytelling. They have their own story, their own identity, their the ownership of the story is what what we are using as the value of the destination in the first place. So let's respect that and honor that, with that, with that projection and and giving back learning and and and teaching and to create this win win situation. It's not just they are the value of the place, not just ornaments, as I was saying. So it's important to restore dignity, not just greenwashing. What we're doing restoring dignity, giving back. Giving back means being will to understand what they are afraid to show, what they want to preserve, and how much tourism do they want involve them in this conversation, not just doing the colonism thing as we were talking about it. This is a brilliant phrase. It's just if we are not giving back what. Are we doing so are we just using it as a brand? And this has huge impact, because the future of tourism is not just being smarter or using this technology that I'm completely skeptical right now, it's being more human. Let's go back to being human. It's mandatory to go back to being human and be clever and bright, understanding that this economic value goes for all of us, not just the companies that are starting somewhere in the destination.

Dolores Semeraro: 50:37

Thank you, Catarina, and now we hear it from Vanessa. Hello. Vanessa, over to you.

Vanessa Karel: 50:42

Hi. Good morning. Great to have my first morning coffee with you. All. Greetings from San Francisco and in fears of sounding repetitive to Katarina, I think the first thing I would change is local value creation, right? I think making the locals, the heroes, you know, earlier, Carmen Roberts mentioned, what's happening in Japan, you know, with the Kyoto Cherry Festival being canceled, that's that's something that was traditional and generational, and that's being affected because of, you know, masterism. And then Sonia, we had Sonia. Also mentioned, you know, how in developing countries, things have are completely different to like traveling to, you know, like a country like Sri Lanka versus going to Norway. So there is a lot of things that technology is helping solve. How we can impact the locals. You know, in just a few years with greet her, we have seen growth and Dolores. I remember from our conversation talking about how it had been so hard for us to find women in in countries like Sri Lanka or Brunei, and now with technology, this is I've seen the change in just a couple of years, but it takes a lot of paying attention to where you should also be driving that tourism, right. And then we are a part, like of the winters foundation portfolio company, and like Sarah Payne mentioned earlier, it's super important to us that we are focusing on how we are making a positive impact with our company. And you know, my dream when I started greet her was to be able to travel wherever I wanted to with peace of mind as a woman, but that equally impacted women, and because what I wanted to do was connect with local women, and they are the champions. They are the women who are making us successful and like be something in the world. And so for us, we're not just tracking the satisfaction of our travelers. We're also tracking the local our local women guide satisfaction. You know, we listen to their feedback, what they have to say. Are we providing them with fair wages? Are they are we keeping them safe? Are they happy with the services that are offering them. And most importantly, as you know, Katarina was mentioning earlier, I think they're not moving pieces, right? They are. They are the forefront of, you know, our experiences. They're the champions that are not moving piece, and we allow them the freedom that they are able to choose what they want to show to their travelers. So whenever a traveler comes to us, it tells what they're interested in doing, but the local woman is the one who decides what they're going to be doing, and that is putting the power back to them, instead of us telling them, here's an agenda that is not authentic, you know. And I think for many of us who are today, here like that, we have had the travelers of traveling or the privilege of traveling. We remember the valuable moments we had with locals, more than the hotel or the taxi ride or the airplane. You know, we remember those moments of magic that happens when you meet a local person and you have those cool memories of you know that you bring back home to your friends. I was recently traveling through Bosnia, and while visiting most are I usually like to read a book about the place I'm traveling to to learn about it. But then I met a wonderful local young woman who then told me, from her perspective, what her family suffered through the war that is forever going to be with me. And that really changed the way now I think about the people in Bosnia, right? And so I think that bringing back the essence of traveling, which is putting it back to the culture that we're experiencing that is like a privilege to be there. That's what I would change. Sorry, I went too long, but I think I wanted to mention that is really important for all of us to know. Wonderful.

Dolores Semeraro: 55:00

Vanessa, thank you so much for your input. And now it's over to Iris.

Iris Serbanescu: 55:04

Welcome and Hi everyone from Oaxaca, Mexico. I have just loved hearing how much we're all on the same page about what needs to happen next in tourism, one of the questions, one of the part of this question around structural change, like, what structural change would we implement immediately around community tourism? What came to mind for me, based on living in Spain for two years, but being from Toronto, Canada, was this idea of third spaces. So as we know, first space is our home, second space is our work, and then the third space is very prevalent in Europe, it becomes this informal gathering space where community comes to life. And I really noticed that in the town squares and in the community centers, it's just such a more vibrant experience outside of my hometown of Toronto, which is probably because it snows and no one leaves their house for six months of the year. But examples of third spaces are like cafes, community centers, parks, markets, libraries, and I feel like when third spaces are protected, tourism can really thrive, but when they're ignored, tourism becomes extractive. So if we only interact with the commercial layer of a destination. That's when tourism becomes extractive, if we can support the social fabric of third spaces, that's when tourism becomes a tool for creating more community and participating in the community in that local spot. Because subject

Catarina Varao: 56:38

is that most of the time when companies are challenged to look into subject subjects as communities and inclusion, we are not talking about becoming good person. We are not talking about the moral obligation here, nor charity. We are talking about what is the value of that place, and that place has value considering the locals, the people that actually live there, that they that hone their identity, because we are we tourism, are using this to brand, to sell and all that. So it's it's a balance between being happy where you live as a local and respecting the the amount of growth that we want in tourism, not who is. Who owns anything to say how much tourism capacity does a place has, rather than the locals, who has a word on that, rather than the locals? Come on. I am the one saying it okay. I might be as a local man, enlightened or know everything that can happen good in my place. For instance, I'm from the Azores. Azores has been considered one of the green destinations they do not recycle. So it's a contradiction. So it's a green destination as a tourist destination, but I'm a local. I know I'm from the Azores. They do not recycle. So we need to teach and expose people to their vulnerabilities, and what do they do not know already or should learn. But this doesn't give you room to just step in and let me grow tourism whatever it takes. So it should be a balance. What can we teach? What can we learn? What should we preserve? What should we highlight? And it's not about just charity and and becoming, I don't know, owning the place. It's how big, instead of thinking, how big can we grow? Is the question should be, How deep can we connect?

Dolores Semeraro: 58:50

So when we get to that deep connection point, my last question for the segment is, when is cultural heritage strengthened rather than commodified. Vanessa, your input?

Vanessa Karel: 59:06

that has been something that we have been thinking a lot about, because for for us as leaders, you know, we have to be really mindful of the marketing we're doing, of the media we're putting out, the areas we're promoting. But we have a lot of challenges as us traveling, like with travel companies, one of them is people keep going to the places they keep going to, and it's hard to reroute them to the places that need the tourism, right? So for for us, you know, we are looking at the metrics where, like places, like every year, where are travelers going to, or whether, what are the places that are upcoming? And we're trying to also always be mindful of, like, where should we try to push more, you know, like marketing towards? And so something that is we're currently doing that's not necessarily being done. By traditional tours. And I mentioned earlier, you know, the women are the ones who said, share their they decide to share their own culture. So, for example, we have toddlers next week in Morocco, and it's Ramadan, and so the ladies weren't available until a certain time. And so we had to accommodate about that around, that in, you know, like for for us, you know, like you could say, We're business, we need to make money, but at the same time, we have to respect the culture. And this is something that you know, if you're traveling during Ramadan, and as a traveler, responsible traveler, you should know that you should be expecting a little different or, you know, experience that is equally beautiful and culturally enriching. But the exciting part that we have seen is that travelers are and they are looking for ways to really experience realness of culture. Now, the hard part is that these products are hard to find. You know, people keep going to the via tours of the world, and they keep getting the same cookie cutter experiences. So we are trying to change that, you know, with with our services as much as we can. Obviously, we're still a small company, but I think that the great part here and the opportunity for all of us is that travelers are looking for the authentic and, you know, experiences that really are celebrating culture and not not the cookie cutter ones you know, that copy paste Instagram photos they really are trying to go to the destinations that provide them, that culture, that story, that they will bring back home. And you know, as we've said it again and again. Local people control the stories, but also the leaders. So we we are trying to work more with tourism destinations. We, for example, like just did our lunch, or for female travel certificate for destinations in which we teach them where the gaps are for female travelers visiting their area, and ways to, you know, improve the destination for this type of travelers. So I don't think you know, all of us here today are leaders, right, in a way, but it also we need to also motivate the leaders above us, right? And I think it comes from who is making the decisions, as we are saying, oh, like, there's a lot of places where locals can't access the beaches because there is resorts. And that was one of the thing that we found out through the first certification we did in Tulum, we surveyed the local women there and got their complaints and then filter them to them back. And it was like, we can't access our own beaches. How can I recommend it to travelers if we can't even go ourselves, because they charge us $100 for two beers just to be in front of the beach? So, you know, like, there's still a lot of things that need to be changed upfront, like on the top, but it's gonna take a lot of effort, collectively from all of us.

Dolores Semeraro: 1:03:04

And lastly, some inputs from you Iris.

Iris Serbanescu: 1:03:06

Iris Vanessa is the queen of community here and cultural heritage with what she does. So I just want to piggyback off what she shared around. Who can say no, like, that's one of the the main factors of decision making, power, lying with the locals and keeping that, preserving culture and keeping it in local hands, is who's allowed to say no to what they're asked to do. That's a huge indicator of whether or not this is true community based tourism, and whether it actually preserves the local culture or it's extractive tourism. So I really love that. And I think just recognizing that we need different metrics, as I think Tina shared like, success isn't about visitor numbers. It isn't about necessarily the traditional KPIs, but if we look at success as community satisfaction and cultural pride and youth engagement and all of these different metrics, and expand how we measure it that way, then we're moving in the right direction.

Dolores Semeraro: 1:04:09

Thank you so much for joining this very special episode of Truth Behind Travel podcast, an episode dedicated to the recording of women leading the way the global travel and tourism roundtable, hosted in collaboration with the Institute of tourism online live, where more than 700 people were connected to listen to the topics, the value, the insights shared by the speakers of the roundtable. All the speakers of the roundtable were speakers on the podcast on season four, Carmen Roberts, Tina O'Dwyer, Vanessa Karell, Anne de Jong, Sarah Payne, Lola Akinmade, Jennine Cohen and Catherine Gallagher, Iris Serbanescu, Caterina Varao and Sonia Gottlebe. You can find all their episodes and their respective conversations on the podcast, and I encourage you to deepen the conversation with them directly. Each of these four tracks today explored some of the topics that are very relevant to today's conversation in travel and tourism, but also I feel it only just scrapped the surface of a much deeper conversation, and I'm very grateful for all the speakers to take the time to join the round table and share their wisdom, experience and knowledge. Thank you once again, and I'll see you soon on the podcast for the next episode