Transformational Travel: taking the lead and shaping the future with Jake Haupert

Dolores Semeraro interviews Jake Haupert - CEO & Co-Founder of the Transformational Travel Council. 

In this episode, Dolores' interview takes a step further into more dynamics concerning the global operators, less related to tools and data, and more related to what do travellers seek when on the move and after they come back, how does our industry help them in the process and ultimately transform. 

Whether you are an experience operator or a traveller questioning the how’s and why’s of what traveling can truly mean for all people and for our planet, today’s episode with the CEO and co-Founder of The Transformational Travel Council, will touch on the travel as a force for transformation, what does the transformational process look like and how does that lead to a greater adoption of the transformation economy. 

About The Transformational Travel Council

The Transformational Travel Council is a collective of global tourism stakeholders who refuse to skirt the challenging issues. Instead, they throw their boundless enthusiasm and well-researched knowledge and wisdom at them, determined to find a resolution. They stand for the betterment of lives and livelihoods through mindful travel, regenerative thinking, and conscious choice-making. 

About Jake Haupert

Jake is a thought leader in the transformation economy and an innovator in transformative travel. As Co-Founder of the Transformational Travel Council, he works at the intersection of experience strategy, regenerative development, and human-centered design to shape a more conscious future for travel.

On this episode: 

- The Process of Transformation in Travel

- The Transformation Economy

- Challenges and Opportunities in Transformational Travel

- The Role of Destinations and Communities

- The Future of Transformational Travel

Connect with The Transformational Travel Council: here

Host of Truth Behind Travel Podcast, Dolores Semeraro is a sought-after international tourism keynote speaker and sustainable tourism marketing professional. 

Dolores actively works in the tourism and travel conference space as a keynote speaker and moderator, gracing the stages of international tourism summits and trade shows. 

As a professional keynote speaker, Dolores’ speaking topics encompass sustainability in tourism, digital marketing and how to identify today’s traveler’s needs through technology and innovation.

5 years ago, Dolores launched her podcast show named ‘Truth Behind Travel Podcast’ where she regularly interviews tourism and travel industry leaders and representatives on how to rebuild the future of travel.

www.doloressemeraro.com

dolores@doloressemeraro.com

Instagram @dolores_semeraro

LinkedIn @dolores.sem

Transcript

Dolores Semeraro: 0:01

Welcome back to the show. Thank you, Jake for joining me today on the truth behind travel podcast.

Jake Haupert: 0:05

Thanks, Dolores, really excited to be here with you.

Dolores Semeraro: 0:08

Finally, we meet virtually after a short meeting in person a few years back in Portugal. And before we start, I always love my guests. To give a bit of an introduction of yourself, you know who you are your milestone if you want what you like to share about the person that you have become and what made you what you are today.

Jake Haupert: 0:30

Yeah, I'm based, based in Seattle, Washington, Pacific, northwest of the states, and I've got a couple kids, teens, one of them about to go off to university. And, you know, I try to spend as much time as I can outside, connected to nature. Really appreciate, appreciating this beautiful place we call planet Earth. And you know, I a lot of my work is, is around helping others to connect, you know, connect with nature as well, and that's through the lens of like, connecting through to self first, better understanding who we are and what's important to us and our values. And, you know, really digging into our identity and our agency. And so, you know, a lot of the work that we're doing and travel at the Transformational Travel Council is really deepening experiences, moving it from moving travel, from experiences into transformations, you know, through a defined process. And, you know, I started down this path, you know, more than a decade ago, you know, after working in a previous company of arenascapes for for more than a decade and and, you know, really starting to appreciate the power of travel in our lives, and recognizing that the current modern, the current design of travel and tourism, delivery of travel and tourism was was missing, you know, the, I think the most important aspects, you know, and the reasons why we travel and what we're seeking and travel, you know, as it became very commoditized and very disconnected from, you know, learning and stretching and growing and becoming better versions of our world, becoming more global, more global citizens and And, so, you know, I went down that path of, you know, my own reevaluation of my own life purpose at that time, and met some other wonderful colleagues on a similar path, and we decided to see if we could disrupt travel and really dig into what it means and How we can, how we can essentially do travel better and move the industry, you know, down, down that path. And so, you know, we've dug deep over the years into, you know, psychology and spiritual transcendence and neuroscience really trying to better understand the human condition and human connection, and then overlay that into into travel and experiences in general, you know, transformative experiences. And you know, so now we have a global membership, and we provide transformative education, to you know, businesses across the sector, whether it's destinations or hospitality, travel advisors, guides, you name it, it's really elevating their experience, strategy,

Dolores Semeraro: 3:24

wow, I think it's when you mentioned the process, and I kind of want to spend a little time there, because between transformation and Reality of Things and the reality of the ecosystem, that you quite often find this operator working in, there's a huge space. So I just want to ask you, how does that space look like?

Jake Haupert: 3:52

Yeah, yeah. I mean, our processes is all designed to create lasting change, right on on traveler but also on the hosts and destinations and communities that people visit. So it's, it's a, it's a recalibration of how we how we design and orchestrate travel experiences. And so, you know, a lot of the travel today is focused on, you know, travel as a product, right? You go on to your favorite online travel agency, and you book your car, your hotel, your, you know, your cruise, you know, maybe you bundle it up and create a package, you know, but we, we're shifting it back into like, well, no travel is this process that's an unfolding that starts well before the journey and continues well after. And so travel companies that are leaning into transformation in a meaningful way really understand that and are learning to guide and facilitate that process, and recognizing that that drives real value and impact, you know, for for not just the the traveler, the guest at your hotel, but for the entire system that you're working within, and the value that it drives on from them.

Dolores Semeraro: 4:58

Of course, I as First of all, as as you said, people that are leaning into the transformational side of travel, it brings them, sort of on a path of, okay, "I believe in this" I believe in what it represents and in what it stands for, for not just for my business, but also for everyone involved in the business. It could be the operators and suppliers, the communities on the ground. And so the transformation process kind of doesn't just happen in the business, but it also happens all around by affecting so many people. It affects the economy at large, so much so that even on the Transformational Travel Council website. You often refer it to, it as the Transformation Economy, and that economy today is becoming the bread and butter of a process that many in the tourism industry have put, have put in motion. But some, some and quite many, I have to say, they, they, they sit on the buzzwords rather than doing the work, right? So if you were to, you know, from your point of view, tell me a little bit. What does transformation economy really need to entail? What does it mean? Who, who are the players, who's working in it? Yeah, I think it's a fundamental shift in how we how we move through the strategy and design and development, you know, of not only experiences, but also our companies, you know, and our hotels and our destinations, our communities, our tour operators, whatever it may be. And it kind of goes back to that process of, you know, at the front end, there's, there's a diagnosis you really have to understand, you know, in the transformation economy, what is the traveler's motivation, you know? What is their why? What's calling them to a given adventure, you know? And that really starts to unlock the potential of the entire experience, you know. So then you get into like coaching and mentorship. How do you guide them through that process? How can you help them become more present, you know, of the year and their experience. How can you help them slow down? How can you take them through a process of reflection and meaning making, not just across the entire journey, but each day, each day is an experience, you know, but it's all working towards some sort of outcome. So when we talk about the transformation economy, ultimately, it's, not, you know, necessarily about, you know, what can we do? It's about, how can we help you become whatever that may be for you, right? That can be, I want to become, you know, I want to switch careers. I want to, you know, start to end a relationship and, you know, these big T transformations. Or it can just be, I want to be more empathetic, or I want to be more goal oriented, I want to be more compassionate. I want to have more clarity and confidence in my life, right? But we use the travel experience, or in the transformation economy, really, any any organization that you're working with to work you towards some sort of desired outcome, you know? And so, you know, those that are in the transformation economy, and we're still very emergent within it. Are really learning how to how to structure this and a way that that drives towards outcomes, and, you know, identifying and realizing the value creation that sits there when you help someone achieve goals, when you as Joe Pine, who's one of our advisors and the author of this new book called The Transformation Economy. Fantastic, a must read, built on his previous success the Experience Economy. But when you can help someone become better versions of themselves or achieve a goal or aspiration, then you're providing value that currently, the industry, you know, is not really touching, you know, but you know, it's not a flip the switch type of thing. You don't enter the transformation economy just because you want to, or because it's buzzy or because it's trendy. You know, you typically have to go through your own sort of transformative journey. You have to be a little bit more introspective around your own values and purpose and appreciate what transformation is. If you're have any success with designing for leading, facilitating or guiding transformations in a meaningful way. Do you see operators being more responsive to the call of transformation in Europe or on this side of the pond or here around the US, because I'm witnessing different things around here, like I'm in the southern states at this at this time.e

Jake Haupert: 9:31

That's a great question, one that we're still trying to navigate. Because, you know, when I started down this path, you know, I grew up in an environment, family, community, where transformation was just part of our way of way of being, right. And so that's what really led me into recognizing that there was a gap in travel and tourism as it is today, to kind of go back to the roots of why we travel, you know. But that term transformation. Uh, you know, it can be a challenging term. It can be heavy, you know, and it can be intimidating for some folks. And it's also very difficult to define because it's uniquely our own, you know, we, we define how we how we transform, you know, so that word in itself is difficult within your traditional, mainstream Travel and Tourism space. And, you know, it's in an in traditional tourism travel space, it's focused on transactions. It's both it's it's focused on, you know, experiences that are driving toward volley, more is better, and volume and profitability rather than meaning and purpose and guiding people from where they were to where they want to go, right? So, you know, transformation depending upon where you're at. You know, certainly different cultures, different communities, have a different comfort level with the term transformational travel, you know, but I think that a lot of it on all before I say that, I'll say that, yeah. I mean, certainly in Europe, there seems to be a little bit more openness. Latin America definitely have sort of that natural appreciation for this, because it seems to be more integrated into into their culture, you know, I can see, you know, some of our strongest, strongest membership bases are in India, you know, where, where this, you know, sort of Buddhism and Hinduism is integrated into and they're thinking about growth and stretching and becoming, you know. So there are these pockets where this is certain, a little bit, little bit more approachable. And then there's those that are not, you know, and certainly in the US is probably where we we face the most obstacle or challenge to this, you know. And then I'm not really sure exactly why that is. I could speculate that a lot of it just has to do with, you know, when we talk about transformation, it typically requires some sort of disorientation, disruption, overcoming some sort of challenge. There's, you know, often suffering, and you know, so unless you've had that journey in your capacity and or this is part of your family or culture, it's really difficult to understand and connect with the value of any sort of transformative experience. And so identifying those folks you know in those markets or those destinations, or those that hurt that whole portfolio of hotels or that group of travel agencies, it's usually the individuals. It's usually the the people, the leaders that have sort of this innate appreciation for what it is that are more open to it than than others per se.

Dolores Semeraro: 12:45

I thought about the process, and how would that transformation process feel like for an operator? I I mean, I think of a system that calls for a be a behavior, a behavior in the people that are working in your company, in your team, and the behavior that you basically encourage visitors to to have at the destination level, the system you build calls for the behavior that you know that happens. It's not the other way around and say, Oh, this is bad tourism. Or these tourists don't really care about anything transformational. They just want to get the best price, get the rate, get the get the room with the view and the access to the swimming pool and parking just next to the hotels. This very, very product oriented sort of factor, right? And in a way, the hospitality industry is a bit of a slave of that, in terms of that process, because it's like a dog that bites its tail, you know, what? What do we do first? What we do, what they're asking us to do, what our customers are asking us to do, or we start a process of transformation that perhaps will call for other customers, maybe, maybe not. Who knows? And as you said, it's, it's it calls for certain, uncertain uncertainty to to go through it. You know, not every leader can do that. In the in the Transformational Travel Council, the early adopters that you work with, if you were to, you know, I know people listening to this podcast will be like, okay, maybe I can be on a transformation journey myself. I just don't know if Do I qualify. So the early adopters that you work with, what triggered them? What did you recognize in them? Like, was it? Was it bravery? Was it vision? What was it?

Jake Haupert: 14:38

Really a good question. I will tell you that I've had many conversations, as you might imagine, with folks that are drawn into this, and more often than not, there's typically some sort of shift in their own awareness or identity, you know, or behaviors. And you know, at work, you know, they're starting to quite. Question, you know, why do I do what I do? You know? How can I do it better? Sort of taken an existential approach to lives and their work, they find us or reach out to us. I often hear, Oh my gosh. I thought I was the only one that was doing this or thinking this. You know, I'm, you know, I felt very lonely. I mean, you know, you speak our language, right? So we've created this, this container, if you will. Of folks are really reevaluating what Travel and Tourism means to them in their own lives. And also, you know, What is that expression? How is that expressed in their work, whether that's at a hotel or a destination, whatever that may be. And so, you know, they're sort of naturally in their own transformative process, because they're asking why, right? Because they're getting into their own motivations, which, as I said earlier, is that first stage that diagnosis, you know. So a lot of those that are reaching out to us are sort of self assessing, self evaluating, and then seeking out practical ways that they can shift their their business or their experience strategy around in a more purpose, more meaning, more connection, more belonging, more reciprocity.

Dolores Semeraro: 16:13

You said it yourself. You speak to many operators. Sometimes they come to you and they said, This is exactly what I mean. And when instead you have this conversation, and unfortunately, that person just doesn't have it, just it's not, yeah, on the right path. And you have, you got to have the heart to say, Sorry you're really not getting it right. how do you how do you go about that?

Jake Haupert: 16:37

Oh, gosh, I wish I had the solution there. I mean that that, you know, I would say that I we probably speak with more people that don't, you know, that aren't, don't see the value in it, you know, aren't connecting with it, you know. And I think for many years actually, you know, to our own detriment, we spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince people, and that's not a good and healthy place to be. You know, no one wants to be, you know, told what's right or wrong, or lectured or anything, you know, or made to feel that they don't understand something or don't see anything. And so, you know, I this, this question that you ask, you know, is, is a very sensitive one. It's a very tricky one. And, you know, I think that that transformation economy, you know, and that work, and Jill pine really framing it around the the opportunity that exists within, within business and value creation, and how it creates more loyalty, how you can charge your premium for this, how you can, you know, increases referrals. You know, those things start to crack. You know, at the foundation of your typical business, you know your business proposition right? Because now you're able to translate this into, this is something I should listen to, or this is something I should acknowledge, or let me explore more. Let me sign up for this class, or course. But with that, without that business framing, for a lot of people, you know, they're all stretched. Then they're trying to figure out, it's hard to be a small business owner. It's hard to be CEO of a large enterprise, you know. So trying to squeeze in new innovation and new concepts and new ideas and perceptions is a challenge for any of us, you know, and we specialize in change. We know that the human condition that it is difficult to change. On one hand, we're going through change constantly. Change is constant in our lives, but when we try to be intentional about change, you know, you know, whether it's a New Year's resolution or some sort of goal or aspiration, it's hard for us, right? You know, those the much of the mainstream market is very slow to adopt, you know, some of this new innovation, and that's, and that's okay. I mean, that's part of the journey. It's part of what change is, you know, the experience economy was first on the scene, what 25 years ago, you know, and there are still companies trying to figure that out, right? So this is, this is a really long evolution, and one that I'm excited to continue to participate in for decades to come.

Dolores Semeraro: 19:10

You almost act as a translator of the process. It's because, as a team, I can imagine your team going through these conversations and being sometimes met with resistance or belief or dubbed people you know from either from middle management to leadership level, and in every conversation, you gather more intel. You gather more information about okay, what is it that is stopping people from joining in? What is that is stopping? What are the main concerns so and I think one of the main concerns in many cases, is the money. When we talk about running a business, yes, we do run a business out of passion, out of vision, out of a call for what is meant. Full to us, and ultimately, if we hire people to do the business or in our company, it's also about making money, to give the possibility for the employees to have a livelihood, to have a salary, go back and feed their family, and so on and so forth. So money is important, and it's not a topic that it's not very romantic in the greater scheme of transformation, but it is part of the conversation. And so when you talk to these leaders, or even just the managers, or at any level of the organization, really, the tension between the potential of transformations and the potential of profit is there. And so when you reflect on this conversation, where do you see that tension being?

Jake Haupert: 20:45

Many businesses in hospitality and tourism, especially given how much fluctuation there is around travel and tourism, it forces businesses to be Super adaptive and resilient and thoughtful. So when you know, you introduce change, you know, and you're, you're typically building organizations based on scalable growth, right, or what can be repeated, you know, we, you know, I think, I think we lose a lot of confidence in something that may take a little bit more care or slow us down or not be as scalable. Or, you know, where is that? Where are those deltas? Where are those gaps made up, right? And so, you know, I think you know, when we talk about transformation, it's an increase in you know, or moving from personalized to becoming more personal, you know, facilitating, you know, in more of an intentional and skilled way. You know, we typically talk about slowing down, right? All of these are counter to sort of our capitalistic state of minds, right? You know, but then you dig a little bit deeper, and you start to recognize that, you know, there is great opportunity to charge a premium for these type of experiences, right? So you're making it up there. You know, there is a lot a stronger sense of pride and purpose and productivity and performance within organizations that get in the transformation economy. So what does that mean? Well, you have, you know, you have less turnover, you have happier, more joyful teams and, you know, and staffs at hotels and all of that starts to create, you know, coherence in that that creates a more positive and thriving and resilient environment, you know, but we have these mental constructs and obstacles that we have to overcome first, another one is Measure. How do you measure meaning, how do you measure transformation? Right? So these are things that we're still uncovering, and there's, you know, there's tried and true ways of measuring, you know, where you are now and where you are after an experience. But how does that take that next step in terms of translate into business metrics and KPIs, and making sure that if they do invest in this, that it's going to be, that it's going to bear fruit, that you're going to be able to sustain and thrive after a transition into the transformation economy, you know. So there's just a lot of mental disruption, you know, that has to happen in terms of the old paradigm and the new paradigm, you know, and if you're just going to go status quo every day, if you're not going to be bringing a beginner's mind and be open to new innovation and maybe take a little bit of risk, then, you know, then you're potentially going to miss, miss out on the opportunity. You're going to, 10 years from now, say, oh, I should have, I should have been a first mover. I should have been an early adopter, right? Because it is moving in this direction. It's just at what point are you going to decide to actively engage it and do something different?

Dolores Semeraro: 23:54

So if, if a business owner decides to engage, What's the timeline? What's the timeframe you're looking at? I'm not saying transformation, per se, is the way I see it. Maybe I'm wrong. Is a constant change. You don't transform to to become something else, and that's it. Then you've become it, and then you're done. You are transforming. And that becomes your your way of going through things, the way, the way you join into you don't just change your identity because you have transformed into something new. You You You keep on transforming, and eventually you build upon some elements that, instead are staying, some are instead of, you know, you're leaving them behind. You're transforming in something else, and keep the good and continuing. You know, along the way. That's how I see it. An operator listening to the podcast today looking at a transformational journey. What? What does that mean in, in in terms of, how long does it take? Yeah, at least you, at least to to feel that you are in a good point. I. Good point, and how much we talking about, like, is it expensive to to end to in, sort of start that transformational journey?

Jake Haupert: 25:09

That's one of the challenges that this, that this shift brings, because everyone is on their own journey, and one of the key aspects of any transformative, transformative process is meeting them where they're at, you know. So, you know, really hard to meet an entire market or an entire audience where they're at, you know. So we have to be able to give them different pathways spark that interest, and then try to provide something that guides them through a process that works for them, you know, for those that are interested in, I would recommend getting, you know, purchasing the transformation economy. Joe pines, new book, I think that's very accessible in terms of, you know, what would be the word consuming and embodying some of the changes and shifts that are required mentally and internally. And it's framed in a way in language that's comfortable for most of us. You know, there is, there is a delta, and a lot of this language is, is, you know, maybe a little bit little deeper than we're comfortable with, right? We're especially in Western culture and United States, specifically white. To keep things kind of at the surface. We also have our signature accreditation program, which, which is a six week intensive, and our next one's in January, that is a commitment of about, you know, five, five to 10 hours a week to go through that process. It is designed to be a transformative process in itself. You know, it's about personal and professional development, and we get fantastic reviews. We've got hundreds of alumni around the world on that. We're just we've just developed a new program at the University of South Carolina that's asynchronous, meaning, for the most, most part, you can take these courses, you know, as you wish, right? And we've got different, different programs and bundling around around it, and transformational travel, regenerative practice, and then how to sell and market it. And so this is our most accessible programming, if for someone that's interested in moving into this, you know, but also going back to experience it yourself, right? So we offer pilgrimage. We've got a pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago 10 Days in May. We've got a couple on the kimono Coda in Japan, because that's a that's sort of an ancient, you know, yet contemporary take on transformational travel in practice, right? You know, you are setting intention. You are slowing down. You're integrating a little bit more of a sense of purpose and presence, right? You're becoming more aware of where you've been and where you want to go, and how you might be able to get there. And so you end up walking right, and there is, you know, you you want to move to some sort of clarity. Well, go on a long walk right, like that, that that really serve, serve you well, you know. So that's another way to get in a gage. Just start, you know, you know, start introducing it into your own life, into the your own travel practice. See how it fits. Try it on. You know. My guess is that if you do that, you're probably going to realize, hey, this is, this is incredible. This has value. I want to bring, I want to weave this into my experience strategy.

Dolores Semeraro: 28:24

You almost have to take some of the destination at the destination level, you know, some of the destination managers on a on a press trip, you know, or on an experienced trip, to say, look, this is what we're doing in this part of the world, how do you feel and how would you feel? How would you like your visitors to feel when they come to your destination? So if we sort of like, you know, let's zoom out from Okay, private sector operators, experienced operators. Let's call them like that. Let's talk about the institutions, the public sector, the destination at you know, the management level of bigger destinations, also smaller, also niche destinations, sometimes, actually, many times, unfortunately, in the world we are living now, the narrative of the destination is not really in the hands of the destination. Per se, the narrative of a place is led by what people are saying, what people are posting, the picture that they are sharing, the reviews that they are posting out with their peers. And that's a it's a big it's, I personally believe it's a big issue, because sometimes you you read about a place and a sort of a an impression is formed, and you haven't even been there, and you don't have, you don't have a hands on. It. You don't really. You're not the steward of your own destination, so to speak. When you work with the destinations and you look at the way they can own it, what's the first step? What is it that the simplest thing that a destination can do to start owning their narrative, to become the steward the really the makers of their destination destiny.

Jake Haupert: 30:25

Yeah, good and challenging question. I would say that what a lot of destinations and destination leaders are recognizing that they have to move from selling places into creating space and container for learning and growth and meaning and potentially transformation. But, you know, getting into, you know, kind of going back into what I was saying, unless you have been on through a transformative journey, it's really challenging to know exactly where to go or what to do, right? So, you know, what can a destination? What can, what can communities do? I think, I think it's really important to for them to, you know, probably put their own community and place first right like, instead of, instead of looking at it from like, what can we do for the visitor or the traveler, you know? But how can we be better stewards of our place and our people and our culture and our ecosystem, you know, and I think that that actually creates the fertile conditions for more meaningful and transformative experiences for visitors. You know, there's tons of data and trends out there that say travelers are wanting, you know, you know, more meaning. They want more purpose. They want more reciprocity. They want more authenticity. They want to have real engagement. They want to have real encounters, you know. And right now, there's a big tension that exists between visitors and visited, you know. So a lot of the work that we would DM with we do with DMOS. DMOS destination marketing organizations or management organizations is shift them into, you know, what is the potential of the destination when we reframe around you know, your people in place and what is your purpose, you know, and let those experiences, encounters and exchanges that come downstream you know, really start to contribute toward what a thriving community looks like, or a thriving tourism strategy and tourism model within communities, I think that's the future of travel and tourism. Not just does a traveler is the traveler seeking transformation, but what can our places and our communities do differently to make sure that that encounter is is beautiful and impactful and thoughtful as it can be,

Dolores Semeraro: 32:41

and may lead to the right behavior as a result. Because, actually, funny enough, you mentioned South Carolina just earlier, as I was, as I was visiting Charleston last week, I witnessed a so called tourism behavior. Let's frame it like that of beautiful girls and there was a family or a group of people all happily taking photos in front of the it's called the rainbow row in Charleston. It's where all these beautiful, colorful houses are. But not only, there's colorful houses all over the city, and especially in the in the historic district, what really got me thinking is that they were happily selfing their afternoon away out of a building that was actually a slave house, or was a building That was used to trade and sell and purchase slaves at the time. What really got me thinking there was like, Okay, so here we have a destination that has an opportunity to encourage a behavior that calls for, perhaps a an appreciation or a sense of respect for what this, for example, this building would mean, instead of just being content with having to have the tourists taking the photos, because the house is colorful, because the architecture has been renovated, and it looks pretty, so the look rather than the purpose, you know, the esthetics ahead of the of the of The meaningful experiences, and I think there's a lot of missed opportunities. Some destination have that opportunity and slash responsibility to to encourage a behavior that is suited and suitable for what they want to be remembered for. It's exactly the question you asked. You asked earlier, what do you want the visitors to feel like when they are in front of that specific landmarks or that specific monument, or a house or or an historic place that has importance, like historical importance? So that's the system. Them that is built around the way visitors are experiencing the destination, and sometimes that system calls for esthetics, rather than that appreciation that comes from the design of the experience. In the transformational travel Council, you work a lot on how you design these experiences at the destination level, with operators, with destination management organizations. What? What do you think is? Because I witnessed it in myself like and I thought, okay, it's just a building, and they put a plaque on the building that says, this was a slave house. Is that enough? So I asked myself, was that enough?

Jake Haupert: 35:41

You know, I think that destinations and more forward looking community destination leaders that are leaning into this and understand that, you know that there is meaning in depth, right? I think are the ones that are arguably the best position to provide better experiences, you know. And I think that so much of our our industry, has been so focused on the, you know, those the surface based experiences, that they've sort of lost touch of what is real, authentic about a place. And, you know, why is it important, and how does it fit, right? So these are all conversations that we have. You know, when we work with work with DMOS to better help them understand who they are, you know, where, who do they want to be? You know, what is their purpose? How do we create the conditions for thrivability within our community? Who do we don't? Who do we want to have here? What do we want them to do when they arrive right? What are the behaviors we want them to embody? And so this leans into some of the that, when we talk about systems change, you know, creating, you know, moving the industry into, you know, a more cooperative approach, you know. So now you have the Travel Advisor that might be working with, you know, this traveler that likes to travel in a wants everything easy. And you know they, you know they want, they don't want to overcome any challenges or obstacles or be in a position that might challenge their way of seeing the world, right? So, you know that's where the on the front end, you know, with the advisors, or even if you're traveling on your own, without a Travel Advisor, you know better, understanding you know who you are, and taking responsibility for traveling better. You live and others live better. You know by having some of these conversations, and our industry has been so, so focused on order, taking whatever you want, we can do right? And that is a broken model, right? Because that leads to entitlement, it leads to expectation, it inflates egos, it creates crazy power dynamics, and the whole thing starts to crumble and break down, right? So if there's no no one guiding the traveler into you know how to travel better, more ethically or more mindfully, more consciously. You know, they're going to keep repeating the same behaviors, you know. So there's the opportunity for the travel company or the traveler on the front end, but then there is a lot of accountability on the destination. And so they're actually, you know, drawing in the type of travelers that they want, and they're, you know, providing experiences that are really resonant and of essence of that people in place that drive toward, you know, very specific outcomes that help them become a thriving community centered around people in place first,

Dolores Semeraro: 38:33

maybe because I'm, I'm currently driving through probably the country in the world where everything needs to be bigger and louder and greater and the bigger the better in everything, and not just in the marketing side of things or the sales and commercial side of things, but also in the in the daily things, even in even when you eat at a restaurant, the potions are huge. And coming from an old, little European, you come here and order a salad, and the salad is, like this massive plate, everything feels bigger. So if everything feels bigger in general, like America is an example, sort of like we said that. We say this not as a criticism, but we say this with, you know, like with a smile on our face saying, Okay, this is, these are things that, if you come from abroad, you notice. So if, if everything needs to be bigger, better, grander in the scale of business. So, and you mentioned to go deep, to go into an understanding, to go into, to go inwards, rather than forwards. Do you think that calls for a jargon that, you know, it's almost like a niche? Is it is transformational travel niche, or can scale up?

Jake Haupert: 39:52

I think it's both. I think, yeah, I think it is absolutely a niche, you know, in terms of, you know, it is a. Managing as its own sector, its own space, right? There are travelers that this resonates with deeply, and they've always traveled this way, right? And now we're creating container and process and techniques and tactics to support that, right so. And then there are providers and experienced designers and hotels and lodges and that have been doing this sort of thing for a very long time, you know. And so this is maybe providing, you know, a little bit more consistency, you know, you know, within that sector, and allowing it to flourish. So that's happening and has been, you know. And then there, there is just the basic philosophical approach, you know, how can I look at any travel experience, near and far, you know, through the lens of a process of diagnosis, presence, activation and integration, right? That you know, why am I going all the way into you know, this is the experience I had. I reflected on it. I made meaning for me. These are the changes I want to make in my life, and then making those changes, you know, so that can be applied to luxury travel, that can be applied to adventure travel that fits into wellness, because it's just an inner awareness. When we talk about transformation, it's that shift in identity, behaviors, agency, you know, etc, so that can be applied to any travel, the transformation economy and what we're talking about through that, you know, through through the lens of creating value, you know, and differentiating yourself in the space you know. I think that's absolutely scalable, no matter whether you're, you know, a cruise ship that's got 5000 passengers on board, or you're a destination that, you know, takes 5000 people a year. You know, whatever it may be, these are sort of universal principles and practices that can be adopted and implemented at the scale that works for for you. And so, you know, I think as organizations start to recognize that they can put purpose before profit and contribute toward value creation and positive change, that inevitably, the industry will move out of transformational travel, and it'll just become travel sort of this, just like it was in the very beginning, right when we look at rites of passage and quests, right when we look at pilgrimage, that wasn't transformational travel, that was just travel. So I think we'll see this come back full circle, like we should have always looked at travel as this opportunity to intentionally stretch, learn and grow into new ways of being and engaging the world.

Dolores Semeraro: 42:41

Is that why you also approach students, bodies, I mean universities or in learning institution, to kind of start from the steps, from the very, very origin of it, kind of breed them up.

Jake Haupert: 42:54

Yeah, yeah. I Yeah. I'm thrilled to be working with with youth and universities, you know, especially as you know, I've got two teams that are in the workforce. And, you know, our tourism industry has become stale, you know, it's, it's, it's gotten a little bit of a bad reputation. And there needs to be an injunction injection of, you know, new possibility and new energy, you know. And when you talk about helping people have really meaningful experiences in their lives that contribute to, you know, a better community, better family, better community, better society. You know. That's energizing for folks you know. So it's good for universities, you know, your for our youth, to be looking at this industry through a different lens, not not what we've been for the last 20 or 30 years, but what we're becoming over the next 20 to 30 years, and come join us, because it's going to be, you know, arguably one of the best industries in the world to be a part of again. And I think we've, we've lost touch with that.

Dolores Semeraro: 43:50

You know, I was going to ask you for the last few words of wisdom to to conclude the podcast today, but I think you just deliver them. I just love the way you put it. I love the conversation today we touched on the transformational journey. We worked, we made our way through trying to define the transformation economy. And just as a side note, if anyone wants to buy the book of Joe Pine on a transformation economy, you can buy it on Amazon for $30 which is not cheap for a book online, I must say, so please do so invest its money well spent. For those listening to this conversation today, I would like you to give them a takeaway.

Jake Haupert: 44:34

Yeah, you know, you just touched on it in terms of his Joe pines book. You know, that's money well spent, you know, it makes me think of, you know, something that a big part of that, that book and the transformation economy, and what Joan of us have spent a lot of time talking about, is the shift from time well spent to time well invested, you know. And so that shift really captures what transformation in the transformation economy is all about, because it talks about, you know. Better understanding you know where you are and where you want to go. You know, that diagnosis, it starts to point toward what are your aspirations, you know, and starts to shift whatever you're engaging into activation, into growth mindset, so you can work towards some desired outcome, you know. So if you're a traveler or worthy your industry, and you know, very specific into the context of travel and tourism, because that's what we're discussing. You know, whether you're designing travel or engaging travel, look at it through as this opportunity to really become whatever it is that is for you. And if you're in the business, you're becoming a transformation, a ambassador, you know, activator of transformations and creating better people. You know, better communities and a better, better planet.

Dolores Semeraro: 45:53

Thank you, Jake. And for everybody listening to the podcast, all the contact details to get in touch with Jake and his team at the transformational travel Council are in the show notes perpetually. So at any time people are listening to this podcast, can go to the show notes and find their contact details to meet the team, have a conversation, really, it just starts from there, and see where that takes them, you know. So thank you, Jake for being on the podcast, and I look forward to meeting you again soon, sometime in person.

Jake Haupert: 46:26

Me too. I really appreciate the conversation Dolores and the space that you've you've created for such rich dialog. I hope that your audience found value in in it today.

Dolores Semeraro: 46:36

Thank you. Bye.