Laura Telford, Organic Specialist with Manitoba Agriculture, has a conversation with long-time organic researcher, Martin Entz. They discuss the current activities of the Natural Systems Agriculture Lab at the University of Manitoba, and its role in fostering organic production in Canada
Laura Telford, Organic Specialist with Manitoba Agriculture, has a conversation with long-time organic researcher, Martin Entz. They discuss the current activities of the Natural Systems Agriculture Lab at the University of Manitoba, and its role in fostering organic production in Canada
The way we grow and produce food is ever changing, shaped by consumers and the climate in which we live in. Farm research at all points of our food system is essential for continuously improving food's journey from farm to table. The Manitoba Agriculture and Food Knowledge Exchange explores timely research innovations and applications that make our food system better than ever. Join us for today's podcast.
Laura Telford:Hi everyone. My name is Laura Telford and I am the organic specialist with the Government of Manitoba. And I am pleased to be here today with Dr. Martin Entz at the University of Manitoba. And I'm just gonna ask Martin a few questions. So let's get started, Martin.
Martin Entz:Yeah. Thanks very much, Laura. Yeah, I'm Martin Entz, I'm at the University of Manitoba, as Laura has indicated. And I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Laura Telford:Okay, so Martin, you started the, the organic rotation crop rotation trials at GlenLea way back in 1992. What are the most important lessons that you would have for organic farmers based on this long term study?
Martin Entz:Okay, thanks for that question. This is a big question cuz it's such a big study. So our conversation will kind of loop in a few different places and maybe I'll have some sort of follow up questions for you, to see if you want to elaborate on anything. But the GlenLea rotation was first started to compare what we called sustainable systems with the conventional systems. So back in the late 1980s, there was a lot of interest in this idea of sustainable development. So the GlenLea study started out with a whole bunch of different cropping systems, organic, also pesticide-free, fertilizer-free and conventional. After 12 years, we just simplified this study to only look at conventional and organic, just out of economic reasons. We couldn't maintain all those sites. But back to your question, the lessons, uh, there's a million little lessons and those have been communicated by bringing farmers to the site, bringing agronomists to the site, bringing students to the site, and teaching them about, weed management, about what nutrient management systems work, which ones don't work. So we've learned that integrated systems work and simple organic systems where we don't really pay much attention to things like bringing nutrients into the system, they don't work. So those are some of the big lessons. I, in fact, I'm just writing a chapter on our crop livestock integrated system at GlenLea, which involves alfalfa for a couple of years, and then a couple of grain crops, wheat, and another one, it could be flax, it could be a different crop. And that system has been really successful. It has really good soil health, it has very good productivity, it has high yields, it has good quality, it has high micronutrient levels in the crop. So that just illustrates that it is possible to organize a productive soil healthy, environmentally healthy organic system. The questions that people ask when they come to GlenLea, they, they first of all want to see an organic system. A lot of agronomists, have never seen an organic farming system. So that's, that's one of the first things. And they're also really interested in all the machinery that we have there. Machines that are specific to organic production like our robotic weeder and our different finger weeders and our comb cut blade roller. All these things that agronomists don't really know about. So I guess that would be another important lesson. We just introduce people to this whole other world and they go, this is more sophisticated than I thought it was. I thought it was just kind of, you know, organic by default. We just don't do things and then somehow miraculously, mother nature comes in and makes it all work. And we go, no, no, you need management and you need tools. And the big tools that we avoid are pesticides and synthetic fertilizers. So that's always a really great conversation.
Laura Telford:One of the ways I think it, people always forget that researchers are farmers too. You know, when you do field trials, you're actually out there working in the field, managing weeds just like farmers are.
Martin Entz:Yeah. And that leads me to one other important lesson is how it taught us as researchers and our technical staff to do a better job. Keith Bamford worked with me for many years and, you know, he learned how to become a good organic farmer through the research. And so we didn't do as well organic farming in the first 10 years as we have done in the last 10 years for that exact reason. Now I have a new technician, Sarah Wilcott, who looks after it and she's been at it for 3 years and, you know, she's gotten really much better at it. And so there's that learning period. And I get out there on the tractor as well, because some things that, you know, when I have new people coming in, I just have to teach them how I've learned it to do it as an organic crop manager. But you make a really good point. And we want the place to look good. If every year I go, I hope all the plots look good because I know people are gonna come visit. There's always problems. And so at least if we can explain them, that's helpful.
Laura Telford:There's always solutions too.
Martin Entz:Yeah. There's new solutions so, you know, one of the things that we've started doing is growing organic varieties of wheat in the organic plots and sticking with the semi-dwarf conventional varieties and the conventional plots. And that's actually made a bit of a difference. You know, that's a solution that a lot of researchers don't want to embrace because then you're starting to compare apples and oranges. But we're comparing 2 different systems, so we have to do that.
Laura Telford:Okay. Thanks for that. You've given us a good background about what's been going on at GlenLea all these years. Over the same period, you've also developed relationships and have been actively seeking out and working with organic farmers across the prairie and even in other parts of the country. Have you observed any major positive or even negative changes in organic management practices over the years?
Martin Entz:I have, and one thing that I've observed is there's good number of organic farmers that apply intensive management to their system, monitoring their system for things like not only soil nutrient levels, but you know, the profitability of individual crops. I've noticed that farmers are increasing the precision of their operations. For example, seeding equipment has improved a great deal. The no-till revolution took us to a lot of wide row machines that were very dependent on herbicides, and they work extremely well in a herbicide based system. When farmers switched to organic and used those same machines, I think there was some disappointment in some of their weed control and some farmers have changed the type of seeding equipment they've used to be specific to organic. That's something that never came to my mind really at the beginning of all of this. So we're seeing drills that can even seed the rows, you know, 4, 5, 6 inches apart. And that does make a difference. Certainly seen a change in the way farmers market their organic grains. There's probably, from what I hear, you know, just a little bit more reliability of the markets and that has maybe led to a bit more specialization as well, which may be a bit of a concern if your rotation is not diverse enough, you're gonna start building up things like diseases in terms of, you know, going maybe things that haven't gone that well. Canada thistle is nobody's friend, and it does appear on organic farms. It is something that people need to take really seriously. It's one of the most devastating weeds. So I remember talking to a farmer i n North Dakota who had farmed organically for 30 years on a rotation that had sweet clover every third year. The Sweet Clover has a feature of, it's a biennial, so you establish it in year one and it over w inters and it allows you to avoid f all tillage one year. And after so many decades of doing this, that lack of f all tillage had allowed the Canada thistle to get established, a nd it did also coincide with t he wet period in that part of the world. And so Canada thistle became just an absolute nightmare for that farmer. You know, diversifying to ensure that you can manage your perennial weeds is something I've seen some farmers do really well. The one story that always comes to my mind that I tell my students is these farmers i n Quebec who actually purpose b uilt some tillage equipment so they could control their red clover in one pass, which was pretty exciting. That demonstrates how did I get to that example from Canada thistle? Well, to deal with Canada thistle, it's very good to have something like red clover in the rotation, even a s a very short t erm stand. It provides competition for the weed, and then you don't want to over t ill the soil to remove that perennial. And so they came up with that solution for themselves. I thought it was a really interesting integrated approach. And then maybe the final thing is just nutrients. We talk a lot about phosphorus and organic agriculture and phosphorus can eventually become a limiting nutrient, but the most limiting nutrient in my experience on farms is nitrogen. And it becomes limiting because there's not enough intense legume growth in the system. And that that's something that we struggle with, I think, on organic farms. How to make those legumes pay one method is to use grazing to manage the legumes. So you're not just growing the legume as a so-called green manure. You a re actually not getting any revenue from it, but you're actually deriving some revenue by grazing it and grazing legumes. With ruminants, m ost of those nutrients are going right back on the ground through the animal. And so that's been something that we've been talking about for a long time. I'm seeing some organic farmers doing it and learning from it. And I think we're learning alongside them. Yeah, and it's been a lot of fun getting o nto organic farms, as you know, it's always a l earning experience for the researcher. You come with a particular question, preconceived notion, and you leave with complete new knowledge, it's a lot of fun.
Laura Telford:And new questions.
Martin Entz:Yeah. Always new questions.
Laura Telford:Well, thanks for that. So if there's any farmers out there who happen to be listening to this podcast that are actually considering a transition to organic farming based on your own field studies, what agronomic advice could you give them to get started?
Martin Entz:The pre-transition period is something that they should consider. That's one piece of advice I would give them. Think about the land on which you're going to be growing crops organically or raising animals organically. So if that land has some of the challenges that are going to come back to haunt you, like low phosphorus or low potassium, if you're on a sandy soil or heavily infested with Canada thistle or quack grass or field bindweed, heaven forbid, then deal with those things before you transition. Give yourself a good chance. So in my diploma class, you know, students are surprised. They go, you're telling us to use herbicides. And I say, well, you know, set yourself up for success. So before you transition, get your house in order, then know selecting the worst field is a bad idea. People are reluctant to select their best fields for organic production. But I do know of one organic farmer who started off on a thistle infested field and that problem hasn't gone away. It's probably, maybe not gotten a lot worse, but it causes that person a lot of challenge. Then also the knowledge you need, visit organic farmers, go on farm tours, talk to other organic farmers, find resources, talk to your provincial, government specialists. Agronomists who've supported organic farmers. I think that's really important. And then I think also ask yourself whether you're up for the challenge. So you're gonna have struggles and, you know, is this something that you really want to do? What are your motivations? I don't know, Laura, I'll I'll just flip this back to you. I'll share some of my thoughts on what are the motivations for somebody getting involved in organic farming. But then I also be curious, you know, how you felt about those. I have a little slide that I show sometimes and I go, well one of the motivations is you've got farm succession where the next generation wants to farm, but they might wanna farm organically or people are concerned about the environment or people just want to make more money. Or people have had a family member who's ill, or people are just curious learners and they're up for the challenge. It is good to check, see how many of those boxes work out for you. And I don't know how you feel about that sort of psychology of the transition strategy.
Laura Telford:Well, you touched on something that I've been working with organic producers for close to 20 years now, and I see them most at the start of the cycle. So when they make that decision or are making that decision to go organic and they want some ingredients to make a better business decision, what I've seen is something that you mentioned, which is I talked to a lot of dads, sometimes moms as well. You see them at trade shows and they're thinking about farm succession. So they're thinking about how to leave a successful enterprise to the next generation. And they often think about organic. So it tends to be those parents that are asking the questions and not necessarily the next generation that's actually gonna implement the change. So I've found that interesting over the years.
Martin Entz:<laugh> that, that is really interesting. Yeah. That's, that's sort of the opposite of where my brain went.
Laura Telford:It may be the kid who plants the seed, but it's dad that kinda takes it to the next step. So what do we need to do? They're very practical questions. How much land do I need? Do I need to do this all at once? You know, do I need to go organic cold Turkey? And I've also seen differences, especially in Manitoba since I've started out here. At the beginning we saw farmers transition marginal lands, and it's something that you said, Martin triggered this in me, and now we're really switching away from transitioning marginal land into agriculture. In fact, with the conventional farmers, they choose their best land to start. So maybe it's your advice over the years, and they tend to be the most successful. So, so I agree with Martin, don't, don't, uh, start with marginal land. Start with your best field and maybe just start with one field. Go slow. There's nothing to say that you have to transition all your acres at once in organic.
Martin Entz:Yeah. And sometimes the infrastructure on the farm is set up for that. You might have some smaller hopper bottom bins or other bins that you have that you can easily segregate one field of organic product onto. Those are all wise words. Here's another question for, you know, another observation that I've made and is that some people are really interested in marketing and there's people who market for international markets and they're really good at that. And there's also some people who are really entrepreneurial and start producing some kind of food product on their farm. Like they may have a flower mill, for example, and we've seen that and then, they're milling organic flour and then they start buying organic grain from neighbours or from the market and start becoming a processor. You know, I think that's really interesting. The organic then became kind of a gateway into a new enterprise that somebody might been well suited.
Laura Telford:For sure. I think that it can be a gateway, both organic and value added agriculture ie, food processing are by their nature adding value. So they're similar. And I do find that a lot of organic producers have what it takes to go to the next step and get into the business side. And maybe they tend to be more entrepreneurial because they're just, to be an organic farmer, you are overcoming a lot of barriers. So you have a particular personality to start with. I think. So I think that is a good fit. And also on the food side, especially on the local food side, we're seeing a consumer switch towards organic, sustainable, natural, all that stuff. So it makes sense that it's organic producers that are taking those next steps into value added food.
Martin Entz:And there are some, certainly in, you know, communities everywhere in rural Canada where you have these success stories and it's amazing what people can do when they, you know, put some creativity behind some processing. And one other thought that I share with my students is that if you are in an area that has a lot of livestock looking, for example, at Southeastern Manitoba, which is lots of poultry and hogs, there's actually nutrients available there for organic farming. And the numbers that we've crunched look at, you know, the value of that manure is much more, much greater in an organic system. So you're really spinning up the economic value of the manure when you can use it to sustain an organic system as opposed to just looking at trying to dispose of it or, you know, doing some land swapping or whatever. And that, I think, has influenced the student audience the most. They go, I never thought of that. I never thought of that. You know, those lagoons of hog manure, which I might be able to use in my organic system if I follow, you know, if they follow the certain animal care regulations as something that I can add value to. So there are, there are also, I think on your question of transition, I think where you are located can make a difference in terms of what type of organic agriculture you might get into or whether you'll even consider it.
Laura Telford:Yeah, absolutely. It really helps to have a hog barn next door.
Martin Entz:Yeah. Yeah.