Dr. Renae Thomas is an expert in Evidence Based Nutrition. She's also a medical doctor in Loma Linda, California, one of the worlds four "Blue Zones" where people live unnaturally long, healthy lives.
Listen in as Dr. Thomas debunks some popular misconceptions about health and nutrition, and gives us practical ways of understanding the latest in nutritional research.
Dr Thomas is currently a senior resident in Loma Linda University Health’s Family and Preventive Medicine residency combined program, which includes a Lifestyle Medicine Specialty track, and a masters in Public Health.
See all episode artwork, links and notes at:
https://blog.dirobi.com
This show is for informational purposes only.
None of the information in this podcast should be construed as dispensing medical advice.
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
Find episode links, notes and artwork at:
https://blog.dirobi.com
This show is for informational purposes only.
None of the information in this podcast should be construed as dispensing medical advice.
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
Dr. Renae Thomas is an expert in Evidence Based Nutrition. She's also a medical doctor in Loma Linda, California, one of the worlds four "Blue Zones" where people live unnaturally long, healthy lives.
Listen in as Dr. Thomas debunks some popular misconceptions about health and nutrition, and gives us practical ways of understanding the latest in nutritional research.
Dr Thomas is currently a senior resident in Loma Linda University Health’s Family and Preventive Medicine residency combined program, which includes a Lifestyle Medicine Specialty track, and a masters in Public Health.
See all episode artwork, links and notes at:
https://blog.dirobi.com
This show is for informational purposes only.
None of the information in this podcast should be construed as dispensing medical advice.
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
Find episode links, notes and artwork at:
https://blog.dirobi.com
This show is for informational purposes only.
None of the information in this podcast should be construed as dispensing medical advice.
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
[inaudible].
Speaker 2:Hey, welcome to the show. Before we jump in, I want to do a quick experiment. Just reached down and touched your belly. If you feel rock hard rippling abs down there, you're probably 16 years old. Living off of good genes and real life hasn't hit you yet. Get off my show you punk. This show is for grownups. Now if you have a few miles on, you and your abs are a tad squishier than you wish they were, I have two resources for you to check out today. First of all, we created a simple mini course called fitness and nutrition for busy professionals. It's absolutely free, but it has a ton of great info and a downloadable PDF. Find it on the resources page at[inaudible] dot com while you're there, if you're ready to supercharge your nutrition, your workouts and your supplements, check out our transformation packages. Each one includes a supplement package, precision nutrition training and pro coach workouts delivered to your inbox daily. Learn more on the transformation packages page of our website and although the price on these are already stupidly cheap, save 15% with coupon code insider and now on with the show. Hello and welcome to the dire OB health show. Today we've got dr Renee Thomas. She got a bachelor's degree in nutrition and exercise physiology and then went on to become a medical doctor after becoming interested in the power of lifestyle choices. Actually before she started school as she watched her father incorporate health promoting changes after he was diagnosed with metastatic cancer. Rene recently migrated from Australia to Loma Linda, California, which is one of the blue zones that we interviewed an expert on earlier in the podcast. For those of you who've been listening for a long time, so that will be interesting to learn more about. Dr. Thomas is currently a senior resident at Loma Linda university health family and preventive medicine residency combined program, which includes a lifestyle medicine specialty track. So I am really excited to do this interview. Renee, thank you so much for being on the call.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for inviting me. Dave, I'm really excited to be here and chat with your audience yourself and all the like minded individuals, love sharing information, very passionate about it.
Speaker 2:You are and you have so much information to share. It was actually a little tricky for me to go through your bio and, and backstory and hone it down to something we can talk about reasonably in 30 to 45 minutes. You really have a got a lot of education. You've really taken an interest in a broad variety of topics. And uh, and tell us a little bit more about that. It sounds like the story of your dad's diagnosis with cancer was kind of pivotal in, in your life.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And it was a, it's definitely like he's a, pivotal is the perfect word to use. So I was about five years old. My dad was just coming up to his 40th birthday, so pretty young for a diagnosis of cancer. Um, and you'll understand when you're saying, why do I, why have I learned about so many topics? Definitely got it from my dad. Huge radar library gate. I think my dad has read the entire library of my hometown. Um, and he really, after the diagnosis thought this can't be it. Like I'm 40 years old. I've got a five year old daughter, this can't be it. And basically went to the library, read everything he could, came across a lot of um, of the keynote doctors that I follow now. Um, and also relevant to why I'm at Loma Linda Adventist health studies and really learning about the power of what we now know is lifestyle medicine, lifestyle changes, especially nutritional changes, exercise, stress management and things that while T did have traditional chemotherapy and medical treatment really was strong founders that adjuvant therapy to survive the chemotherapy and thrive through that and then to his power now be 65 in complete health. He says to me, he feels better than he did when he was in his twenties. So that was a real inspiration for me growing up. Really learned the power of living well and being healthy. That's being incorporated in my life ever since. I can remember, um, eating really well, being physically active, managing stress, although, um, and that really also led me to have such a passion for learning. Um, reading, researching has always been a huge part of our family dynamic. Um, and then went on to study very similar. I started off in journalism cause I loved sharing information and then realized I didn't really know what I thought I did. I think you kind of come to a moment in your 20s where you think you know everything and then realized, you know, absolutely nothing. So I went back to university, got my degrees, as you said, exercise physiology and nutrition and then went on to become an MD. Um, really passionate to help others to be in the same position. You know, I, I can't thank lifestyle medicine and off. I have a dad in perfect health at 65 who had a pretty, you know, average prognosis when he was only coming up to his 40th birthday. So real inspiration for me, a powerful for me to learn more, continue to learn every day. I'm learning more from research, from studies, from my patients, from my friends, from my colleagues, and really just trying to understand how we live well, because that's what everyone wants. Everyone wants to live as long as possible in the greatest health as long as possible
Speaker 2:for sure. And I love that term lifestyle medicine and, and you know, it, it feels like that should be more popular than it is, or maybe I'm just not hearing it, but that's a really great term.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I, it's fairly new. So the American college of lifestyle medicine has been established for quite a few years now, but definitely I feel like it's really exploded in the last couple of years. I think that, honestly, probably let's say the last decade or so, people are starting to become dissatisfied with our traditional medical models. Um, and I think it's coming down to just the, um, the large scale volume that we're having where so much of the population is struggling with chronic disease management. Um, don't get me wrong. Traditional medicine is absolutely fantastic, I would say comparable to, for acute care. We're talking, you know, trauma, car accidents, um, things that need imminent surgery. Um, you know, the, the whole case started in medical, um, development being, say, the discovery of penicillin and antibiotics, really adding years and years to lie. So medicine became so popular because of this acute care management, but now we're kind of going into a different era where people aren't really dying in the Western world at least, um, from these bacterial infections, from fungal infections, from, you know, a car accident. These things aren't killing people anymore. And we've moved into a shift of what we call chronic disease. These are the diseases people might be diagnosed sort of mid, middle age, and they really struggle with them for the rest of their life. And they kind of just watched their health decline until the end of it. Things like heart disease, things like cancer, um, auto immune diseases, diabetes, um, related things to obesity, hormone imbalances, things that people were just really, really struggling with. And I think that unfortunately, while we kind of have medications that manage these, they're not really preventing them. They're not really reversing them. Um, and that's where I think the growth of lifestyle medicine has come in as kind of an alternative or at least an adjuvant to the typical medical model to really help people get healthy and thrive. So that, like we see in the blue zones, people are living into their hundreds in good health. They're not just managing and surviving, they're actually thriving. And I think that's really where lifestyle medicine had started to take off and will continue to, hello? Hi.
Speaker 2:Sorry we lost you there. Where right after, right after you said we'll continue to, it went silent. I'm so sorry. Is that working now? Yeah, yeah, I can hear you fine now.
Speaker 3:So, okay, let me backtrack. What was[inaudible]
Speaker 2:um, you're talking about, you're talking about lifestyle medicine has growth and how it will continue to,
Speaker 3:okay, so let me back track on South again. So, so I think that's really why we're seeing lifestyle medicine beginning to take off growing and really becoming, um, a viable treatment model, evidence-based, um, whether it's, um, completely take over, at least work as a strong advocate, adjuvant to true traditional medical care. I think we're really seeing this kind of last five years really, really, really grow that movement and I think it will continue to grow. Um, at least that's what I hope because it works really well.
Speaker 2:I hope it not only grows, but I hope it gains power. Like right now I'm in in the United States anyways and probably another, uh, you know, first world countries, there seems to be a two, two industries. The, the acute care industry that you mentioned and the wellness industry and unfortunately the acute care industry think it's the be all end all and should control everything. And that's where it gets really, really frustrating for people like myself. I'll give you a quick example. One of our products, Mimi's miracle tumeric has a clinical human study with 120 people over 90 days with osteoarthritis in their knees and they had measurable reduction in their joint pain. It's a phenomenal study. Very expensive. Google won't let me advertise that product because they claim I make, um, what do they call it? I'm, I'm making medical claims. I'm saying, no, I'm simply making the claim that we did this study and here was a result of the study and this is the world we now have created is where we've got this, this world of the acute care. People think they need to control every aspect of it in my opinion and don't even understand this other side in a lot of cases. Um, one of the most profound stories[inaudible] from the Serena and I'm sure you'll really relate to this and probably deal with stuff like this every day, is a medical doctor in California also who, um, is also, uh, going the direction you're going. And had this man come in who'd been to multiple specialists, he had this incredible high blood pressure. No one could help him with it, different specialists that advise different medications. He was on multiple medications when he came to her and she said, well, it keep track of everything you eat and drink for the next three days. Let's just start with that. And so he was a construction worker. And three days later he comes back and he, the guy drank 16 to 18 energy drinks or, um, um, what are, they called? The Gatorades a day. So he was getting like tens of thousands of milligrams of salt. So, and so she said, okay, let's cut that out. And a few weeks later he's off his medication. So, you know, that story to me kind of sums up the challenge with this great divide between the acute care and this lifestyle based, uh, world that you're trying to bring along and, and foster. So, so that may be a little bit harsh and maybe I have a really bad attitude about this because I have to deal with this because I'm trying to help people be more fit and deal with all these things and having to work against situations like I described of actually having a wonderful human clinical study that they don't want me to put on my website. They just want me to say, here's a tumeric supplement.
Speaker 3:Oh, I can imagine the frustration and I think, I think I can, I can totally resonate with what you're saying and I think that you're such a fine line between, you know, the growth of the internet and what we always joke about being dr Google, but it's honestly, it's like anyone can put anything on the internet and I have so many patients coming to me saying, Oh, I read this on the internet, or the news set this like, what do you think about this? And it's such a challenge. I can't even imagine kind of regulating bodies to have to see through everything. You know, from what you've told me, it sounds like you did a great random, well the evidence, but having to sift through all of that with other people just saying like, Oh yeah, this supplement works. And having to have that, that, that definition. And I think going back to what you were saying about the 10 lacks on medicine, the American college of lifestyle medicine, what we really try and push forward is that all the evidence we're putting out there, yes, it's nutrition. Yes, it's exercise. Yes, it's stress management. Yes. It's things that have been considered I guess quote unquote non medicine in the past. But what we're saying is, no, this is evidence based. This is peer reviewed, this is published information that benefits your health and really should be saying equal to other specialties in medicine. Just as you would refer to cardiology, to endocrinology, to pediatrics, you should refer your patients with chronic specialist list. And I think that that probably resonates with what you are saying is we need more recognition that there are alternatives that it just as evidence based as perhaps you know, the typical medical studies that we are familiar with.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's a fair comment. That is the problem with the internet. People can say anything and, and not back it up. And so I understand that as well. There's gotta be some oversight. It's just that the oversight right now seems to be coming from the acute side with, I'm not sensing a whole lot of power, so, so go you and all the other people in your world and I hope you become as powerful as the AMA and can push back on some of this stuff and gain the rightful power in the industry, uh, that we need for people like yourself that are on the wellness side of things. So let's jump into evidence-based nutrition. You've mentioned it a few times. I think everyone kind of intuitively understands what you're talking about, but give us a brief definition
Speaker 4:of course. And it's definitely a big topic. Controversial at best, um, definitely requires, at least in my opinion, a surprisingly high level of education to even begin to understand. But I would try and break it down in the simplest terms and then go into a little bit more detail. So at its fundamental definition, evidence-based nutrition means nutrition. That has been, I guess, at least not necessarily proven but at least replicated. Um, and really well researched critically analysis, uh, analyzed, uh, by scientists, rigorous scientific methods, um, statistical analysis and repeated at least on a large scale, numerous people over numerous years and kind of be an accepted as the best quality evidence we have right now of the foods that we consume or don't consume that optimize health, whether that be preventing, uh, managing, optimizing, reversing disease or just living as long as we can for as healthy as we can. Now that comes through a multitude of types of studies. Um, and we have the hierarchy evidence starting with systematic reviews and meta analysis kind of at the top we have randomized clinical control, a controlled trials. Then we have sort of other trials on scientific studies. Then kind of your case series, case review, um, cross-sectional interviews. Then you kind of get down multiple opinion pieces and things that aren't regarded as as highly. Um, and so kind of your, your bigger ones that we're looking at in terms of epidemiologic and ecological studies, things like the Adventist health study started where I am in Loma Linda nurses' health study, Epic Oxford studies, uh, physicians health study. And these are taking thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people over 10 20 years and really looking at what they eat and then what diseases they develop or don't develop, how well they are living. And can we draw any correlations, conclusions about these. And then those studies are kind of collaborated into these systematic reviews and meta analysis to try and make guidelines about nutrition. And that's when you see these guidelines incorporated into things like the world health organization, um, continuous update project on cancer and other kind of strongly respected and regarded high quality evidence pieces.
Speaker 2:Okay. So that's a super interesting world to me. And it reminds me, and I'm, I hate to kind of sideswipe you with this cause I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but there's a documentary called knives over forks. Are you familiar with it folks? Overnight forks over knives? You're very familiar with it. Cause you know the actual title. Uh, and it's really based on the China study. And I, and I watch it with my kids and my daughter's like, I'm never eating meat again. And uh, and then later I'm listening to the Tim Ferriss show and there's a doctor, I wish I could remember his name and give him credit, but he said something about, um, you know, how the, the, the results are the, the conclusions that most people drew from the China study were completely wrong. And so then as a lay person, right listening to this going, Oh wow, that was a massive study. This is really interesting. We should just stop eating meat and we won't have cancer. Uh, is one conclusion that a person could easily get from watching that? And then other experts are going, no, no, no, no. That's just not the way it works. And so you, it sounds like you are in the world of, you're one of those people who has to decipher this stuff and figure out what's real.
Speaker 4:You know, I definitely, and I am a self-confessed nutrition research junkie. I actually used to volunteer for the commonly known website nutrition facts.org and what that entails is for at least four years that I did it, I read every single published study in nutrition, often with the help of Google translate, which is uh, interesting at best. So I definitely read all the English ones and a, an attempt to rate the ones that are not published in English. So I have read I wat of research and then a big part of my medical training was in epidemiology and statistical analysis. And I'm also doing a master's of public health, which again incorporates the same thing. So what does that mean to interpret the evidence? And this is where exactly what you're saying with the China study and with other big studies is how do we know what to take from it. So if you'd like, I can kind of run through a couple of steps that I use. And again, this is no black and white and unfortunately I don't think we ever have black and white in evidence. Um, but the things that I'm looking for when I look at research, the first one really is this biologically plausible, so we can relate that to the China study or other B studies is everything that I have learned about medicine is what this saying consistent with the biomechanics of the body, the pathophysiology, the things that I know about the chemistry of the body and the way that you know everything down to electrolytes and cellular metabolism and everything that we know about the human body. Does this make any sense? And if it doesn't, why not? And can I learn more about that? Or if it does, okay, let's not make, let's make sure I'm not influenced by bias, but let's make B move onto the next step. Then what you're saying is 10 this has this been replicated and that's where I like a lot of these larger studies that I was talking about where we kind of see consistent patterns. In fact, the Adventist health study has very consistent results to the Epic Oxford study and that's in two different continents. Okay. They're both Western countries. What happens if we then look at nutrition in say a third world or less developed country? Are we getting similar results? The big ones, of course that come up all the time. Is this industry funded and if it is, what's their scientific method? Is this rigorous or have they kind of skipped over a couple of things. Who's making money out of this is their publication bias. Now we all know, no one is, no journal in the world is going to publish consistently negative results, but that skews the research because we are only seeing positive results and it kind of doesn't answer the question of well what doesn't work? The same thing as if we are getting the replication, which is what we need to try and come up with an answer. They're not gonna publish seven studies in a row that have the same results because that's boring for the readers. You know, are they con is there a conflict of interest? Is that cherry picking data? Is there someone just trying to prove a point? Influencing and manipulation of data is huge. It is so easy. So, so, so, so easy to manipulate. Data are common when I've seen is when we talk about smoking and lung cancer, cause once you've smoked for 20 years, your risk factor is very difficult to go down. Even if you stop after the 20 years, don't get me wrong, it does improve, but you are still at higher risk. But if you put that on a plot, it doesn't look like quitting smoking helps you at all. You can really manipulate data to show what you do and don't want. Again, another one that goes back to your study that you were talking about is what is the clinical relevance? Relevance. Sometimes I see a study, you know, and it might quote like 80% improvement, but when you're using percentages that may only be, you know, less action in symptoms. Is that clinically relevant nor my patients aren't going to notice that. It sounds great on paper, but it's not gonna make any difference to someone's life. Um, you know, are the results acceptable? Are they applicable? Um, are they even doable? You mentioned things like never eating meat again. Now, is that doable for someone? Do we have the evidence that it has to be absolutely. Never. Obviously, a lot of my research in nutrition has really brought me to the power of plant based nutrition. But do we have evidence that that has to be plant exclusive? How much are people actually eating? How much can they get away with? And how much can we say is okay to then make it acceptable to people, you know, is a state once a week exceptable where does, where does that fit with your level of health beliefs and what you want to do? So that's a lot of talking, but that's kind of my major ways that I come at studies to try and get to an answer to help myself, my colleagues, my patients, and anyone that I'm talking to and sharing information with.
Speaker 2:Okay. So since I already picked on the China study and as a person who is not a statistician or an expert in evaluating all this information, um, so is the documentary right? Or is this other doctor who mocked it? Correct. I mean, uh, is that one of those studies that professionals like yourself look at and go yeah, that one, not so much. Um, what's the, what's the current find is that the China study do or what's the current view of professionals like yourself of something like the China study?
Speaker 4:I think the biggest problem and what we can often find ourselves in patents of physicians is we start to find things that work with patients and then we start to do those things with more and more patients. And then we start to build what we believe to be true. And then it's very easy to continue to find evidence that supports what we believe to be true. The biggest issue with human health is there seems to be a lot of ways to get to help. And the way that I've come to believe that is falling on a spectrum at the very bottom of the spectrum of health. And I think that every single professional, whether they believe in things like plant-based, the China's study, ketogenic, whatever they believe in, I think we all come to the conclusion that this highly processed food like colorful, brightly packaged GMO or these kind of food like products that have nine stay in the traditional Western diet. I think we all agree that this is harmful to health. I don't think there's any medical practitioner or scientific research out there that believes that those foods are nutritious or healthful for us in large amounts. So I kind of put that at the bottom of the spectrum. Then we stopped the move towards the spectrum of health and this is where we start to see divergence in medical practitioners because on that food like product intake starts to improve their health. So you see people branch off to going more plant based. Then you might see other people that are going to more organic. They're eating grass fed, they're focusing on, you know, low chemical intake and they're eating a, again, the key trend eating a lot more fruits and vegetables and you to see people kind of coming up with different conclusions. So someone like myself, I've been very involved in the plant based movement. I think the China study is one body of evidence that is definitely of interest. Um, probably, um, that has led to a lot of other great research. I think some of the criticism comes in. What I was saying before is has it been replicated? Can it be applied to other populations? My understanding is it was quite specific to liver cancer and actually talk to them in a China region. Um, you know, the kind of, uh, per of Casey and being a very high promoter of carcinogenesis or co, uh, causing cancer. I'm not sure. I've seen a lot of studies really focusing on that. It's very hard to do a randomized controlled clinical trial of telling some people they can't eat dairy for the rest of their life and other people allowing them to be free living. You know, all the confounding factors, people not being in a metabolic ward, very hard to reproduce. So I take that as one part of inflammation that's very interesting and think how can I fit that into everything else that I've read
Speaker 2:that's outstanding. And you live in a blue zone. And the blue zones to me as a health coach are absolutely fascinating. The fact that there are four particular areas of the world where people tend to have a higher degree of health and better longevity and that they are so different from each other. The area you are in is so different from the Japanese area. So different from Greece is so different from Russia. And I love that as a person who loves food, which I do. Um, it's, it's nice to know that there are people that consistently live to be over a hundred years old eating dairy and cheese in one area and eating fish and seaweed in another area and that they're, they're not, I don't know, it just seems like from my understanding of the blue zones that we seem to be proving that they're there. There is not necessarily a cookie cutter, one size fits all diet that, um, uh, also we know that certain people are, uh, for example, we know that in Japan more people are likely to be lactose intolerant than in Russia for example. So it does have to do somewhat with your genetics, your background, your, your own personal, um, uh, well physical makeup I suppose. But to me that's exciting that we seem to have eliminated the cookie cutter I sent you kind of saying that, or maybe, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but give us just a, a brief, uh, your opinion on these blue zones and the differences in diet that seemed to work even though they're highly different from each other.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure. And I think it's interesting to point out that with the blue zones, you know, they kind of talk about the power nine, which is kind of the nine key principles and that's what they found to be fairly consistent throughout all the blue zones. Um, but even within those, there is some variation between the blue zones. A perfect example that I give to a lot of people. It's one of the power nine is wine at five. Now Loma Linda, the seventh day Adventist do not consume alcohol. So even within that power nine there is variations amongst the blue zones. Um, I think it's important to point out that whilst I'm in, you know, we're both very passionate about the power of nutrition only to have the power nine, it actually even about nutrition. We talk about having you know, friends and loved ones, a belonging purpose, um, stress management and movement as a big part of the power nine and then focusing on nutrition. Now in the power nine for the blue zone, they do talk about a plant slant. And I think going back to all the different nutritional patterns out there, I think it's very hard to argue now that increasing the amount of plant based foods in one's nutritional pattern, I think it's really hard to argue now with all the evidence we have that that is not beneficial. But like what you're talking about, that kind of 10 to 20% discrepancy or differences between, uh, the different locations that can be very hard to argue. Now, of course you'll see the people, hardcore, plant-based, Bagans, whatever you want to call them, saying, well, that's in spite of the plants that they're eating, not because of the cheese that they eating or the, the olive oil that they're eating or the red wine that they're drinking. And I feel like, honestly, that's an answer we don't have right now. And sometimes, you know, I work in a position where some people go to the extreme, we see eating disorders, we see orthorexia, we see people that have got obsessed with it. And I really do wonder whether all this connection and purpose and friendship counteracts may be some less than ideal through choices. I often joke about saying, you know, what benefits your life? Is it to sit at home with the perfect bowl of salad on your own? Sad with no friends making the perfect on paper, dietary choices, but never being able to go out and experience the world. Never been able to travel because you don't know what foods are in at or never being able to have all these other experiences of, of life. So I think that nutrition is so important. I think it can't be underrated. You know, I talk about nutrition all the time. I'm really passionate about the evidence, the results, all the things that I have seen from predominantly plant-based nutritional patterns. But putting that in the perspective of living your greatest life because you never know what's going to happen in life. You could have the most perfect diet and heaven forbid be hit by a car tomorrow. We never know what life is. And I think that we have to live life to the absolute fullest. Being mindful of the power of nutrition and lifestyle, but not having that as the sole focus in life.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the power nine, I've never heard that before and I feel like I should have, cause it sounds so cool. And I thought I knew about the blue zones, but this is new to me. Tell us about the power nine.
Speaker 4:Okay. Super easy to find. I'm like, it's literally on the beliefs on website and you search blue Zion, blue zones, power nine. Um, and I briefly said them extremely fast, but I will say it again one cause I'm accented in two. I talked way too fast, but move naturally is a big one. So being physically active but not necessarily obsessed with exercise. And I see that in Loma Linda and the where I'm living now, obviously there's a really great heels to hike. There's people walking around, people gardening all day riding their bikes. It's, you know, it's natural movement. It's fun. Um, we all get a free membership to the gym. People are there playing sports, playing basketball, swimming, uh, water aerobics, just a lot of movement, but without it being crazy. Um, living with purpose. Huge one, having a reason to wake up every day. Um, really, really living your life with a reason is huge for a positive mindset. Um, number three would be downshift, stress management, meditation. However, that looks for you. Uh, in limo and during the seventh day Adventists religion, that is to take Saturday is the Sabbath, uh, from it's sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday complete day of rest. Um, the 80% rule is one of the power nine that I have spoken out before that I'm not entirely sure. I, I I believe personally people should eat when hungry and stop when full. This talks about stopping when 80% full. Uh, it comes from Okinawa, Japan. Uh, I have actually been there. I um, spent some time in Japan and I have never been, uh, so forced to eat from other people in my life. Trying people who are like, Oh, have a fourth, fifth, sixth bowl of rice. And I'm like, guys, I'm so full. So I don't entirely know where the 80% rule comes from. Definitely wasn't something I experienced that maybe I missed out on that one. Um, plant slant, as I've mentioned, that's what they call it for the power of nine. But really focusing on plant based nutrition has been a factor that runs through all of the blue zones, especially things like beans, like games, fruits, vegetables and really fresh local food being a big part of the nutritional pattern. Uh, wine at five we touched on, I know U h, personally consents me a little bit. U m, you know, the world health organization does have alcohol listed as a known carcinogen or causing cancer. U m, b ut again, I wonder whether it is the alcohol itself that is a factor of longevity or just the fact that i t, y ou're sitting down to a glass of wine, you're usually with friends, you're usually shifting down, you know, you're chilling out with your friends. I don't know if it's the alcohol or just the behavior of it. We know that high risk, high risk, high levels of drinking is a high risk behavior. So not entirely sure where I sit with that one. Um, and then the final three of the power, nine being the right, tried putting your loved ones first and a sense of belonging. And I think that that, that pot is so important. I have, um, a really, really good, uh, family of longevity. My grandfather unfortunately just passed away, but he was just short of his 99th birthday and my grandparents have more friends than I know anyone he had for his 90th birthday. He had four birthday parties with more people than at each of them that I think I could draw to one of my orange. So I really, that pop to me stands out having friends, having loved ones, and really having a sense of belonging is really important for longevity and something that I think gets underrated in the medical world.
Speaker 2:Wow. Well that absolutely makes sense. I mean, all of these, you know, that the whole, all these lifestyle factors, it's fascinating to me that only two of them are nutrition based because in my mind, I don't know why I, when I think of the blue zones, for me it's very much nutrition. Now I am aware of the exercise part of it as well. But for some reason nutrition just really seemed like the most important thing of the blue zones. But after listening to you talk, I'm, I'm changing my perspective and it really sounds like the, the, the whole pie is uh, w w what really count all of those nine things, not just isolating the natural movement, the fact they're very active people and um, the nutritional side. So that's interesting. I mean it makes sense, but a really, to me the blue zones were very much about nutrition and less so about the social aspects.
Speaker 4:And I think that's important to highlight cause I, you know, I, I wanted to also mentioned the business very similar to the six pillars of health that we talk about with the American college of lifestyle medicine and lifestyle medicine as a whole. And again, the six colors of the logo and they correlate to the pillars which are very similar to the power nine. These ones being again, nutrition and physical activity, stress management, social connection, avoiding harmful substances like alcohol, tobacco, and then optimizing sleep. So again, nutrition, even though it's my passion, I think underwrited and very, very interesting and powerful. Again, only falling is one six of the kind of your appeals of health.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's also interesting. Um, I've picked up the, the habit of meditation in the last few years and it's expanded to where I not only have a daily practice of meditation, but I'm, I'm part of two tsonga's. I go to a, a local Songa on Sundays and then there's a larger Songa, uh, in my state here that has retreats and various things. And so for me, the practice of mindfulness of meditation has been really phenomenal personally and helped me really, I don't know, it just helped me step up my game in so many different ways. I feel like I'm more effective at work. I feel like I'm more present with my family. It's been phenomenal. But what's been interesting as well, cause a lot of people say, why would you go meditate with other people? Like they don't understand that concept. But what's happened for me is this issue of the tribe. I've made a bunch of new friends and there's really interesting people at a meditation retreat and, and, and some of these have become my new friends. I've developed a new tribe and that's been really fun and interesting. And I've gotten to know, my wife and I were out to dinner on Friday night with, uh, the leader of, of the song guy go to on Sundays who's now a, he just recently became a, um, ordained Buddhist in the tic, not hon a tradition and him and his wife are wonderful people and I've introduced my wife to them and, and now we're good friends and, and so that whole, that whole progression for me personally of personally starting to meditate, finding other people who are like me, finding out there are meditation groups, um, and joining them, uh, as kind of hit two of these nine. I think for me it's helped me develop more friendships as well as, you know, work on this whole mindfulness meditation thing personally. So that's really interesting. I throw that out there because, uh, as you've talked about these things, that has been an interesting thing as I've had these discussions with people about mindfulness and meditation that they just don't get that part. Like everyone seems to understand. Yeah. If I could sit for, you know, five, 10, 20 minutes and meditate every day, that'd be really cool. But I just can't picture why you'd go do that with someone else.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And you know, you mentioned embarrass earlier and I don't know if he was the best essence site, but he was the first person I heard to say it. He said something along the lines of you are the average of the five people you spend the time with the most. And I think that that really goes down to what you're saying about meeting people that are living a very similar lifestyle for you. And I think that you help collectively all lift up each other, you know, and that can be applied to any of the pillars. You know, you're doing stress management with your friends. I say to a lot of people, you know, instead of going out, you know, to a bar or going out for coffee and cake, why don't you go for a hike with your friends? Why don't you go to the farmer's market and buy some, you know, great fruits and vegetables together, you know, chill out together like you say. And that is hate together and really help lift the collective consciousness together. I think that that can be underrated.
Speaker 2:Well that is outstanding. I now I want to jump back to um, the all that being said and, and here we are picking up this power nine and I love the concept and I'm going to put this on the blog. For those of you listening, we create a blog post for every episode at blog dot[inaudible] dot com D I R O B i.com and we'll put notes and everything that's been mentioned on that post so you can go back. Ah, there's been a lot of different things mentioned in this. There's been some studies, there's been some websites, all of those things we will create in our show notes and put their butt in on this show. There are three things we really focus on. There's nutrition, exercise and supplementation. And so I want to dive a little bit more into the nutritional side of it. Um, because you have spent all this time becoming an expert, you spent time on nutrition facts, you've been diving into all of these major studies. What are some of the biggest findings you've mentioned? You've mentioned plant based eating and that's great. And I really think anyone listening to my show would know that. And I talk regularly about trying to get five to nine servings of colorful vegetables and fruits every single day is one of the things we encourage people to do. What are some other tips along those lines that you would give to people based on the research you've done?
Speaker 4:Yeah, fantastic point. And honestly I think despite all this talking about all these other great things that you can do for your health for reason that nutrition has been and remains my number one area of interest is because it does seem to cause the greatest and most dramatic effect. Unfortunately you cannot out exercise out, meditate, um, you know, out friend, a core nutritional pattern. Unfortunately, you know, you can meditate every single day, but if what you're putting into your body, essentially what is creating every cell and providing the nutrients for every cellular activity and function in your body, you really can't seem to escape that. And I think that's why we get the most dramatic impacts from training on nutrition. So things that I have seen so that I've been just helped. Studies again remain a huge part of what drives my clinical practice from a research perspective and we really start to say, sir, what makes the Adventist health stay so interesting is they have predominantly good rest, good physical activity. They are considered health conscious compared to the average American most don't have caffeine, most don't drink alcohol and most don't smoke cigarettes, so you really set up a good control study that removes a lot of those confounding factors of poor health that sometimes confound or influence other studies on nutrition. The difference in the Adventist population other than those factors that seem to be consistent, what seems to Barry is the level of animal products and dairy products that it in the nutritional pattern about 50% consumers. But again this is much less than the average American. It's about four to 10% meat and about 10 to 12% dairy in kind of your omnivorous pattern and that came down to about three one ounce servings of meat per week. Then stepping up. And that's why the Adventist population as a whole is about 10 years longer than the average American. Now if you want another five, seven, 10 years, that was where we moved into the plant based or the vegetarian and then even further studies characterizing into what they call vegan. But I prefer to use the term plant based because it's more specific. Um, that population, they then had additional years in longevity. They had further reductions in chronic diseases like a lot of cancers, diabetes, obesity, auto immune conditions, um, heart disease. Again, additional benefits, this already health, popular, healthy population. Um, and so that's where the interest in plant based nutrition comes from because it really does seem the more whole grains, fruits, vegetables are beans, legumes and nuts and seeds that these populations can suit. And the less animal products are dairy products that they are consuming seems to add extra health and longevity to their life. And really in a step wise fashion for the level of consumption. So that stupid interesting. Uh, then correlating into clinical practice for me and where it's continued to become interesting, my experience at places. Like true North health center, which, uh, does the water fasting and then whole food plant based nutrition, uh, physicians committee for responsible medicine, which I've been involved in, doctors for nutrition in Australia, all working with whole food, plant based nutritional patterns are dr John McDougall. I've also worked with him and really studying their ways and then seeing that with my own patients or other people's patients that I have been shadowing the physicians and seeing people dramatically get well just by changing what they're eating and moving towards more of a plant based nutritional pattern.
Speaker 6:Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay. So rapid fire. I'm going to throw out a food and I just want you to give me top of mind response, okay. Okay. Eggs,
Speaker 4:minimal
Speaker 6:bread.
Speaker 2:Moderate a steak. Minimal. How big
Speaker 4:from to live as a traditional Adventists? Normal than probably one ounce per week.
Speaker 2:Wow. That's tiny.
Speaker 4:Preferably less. The people that got the best results with them.
Speaker 2:Okay. Um, alphabet because it's very well alphabets. The sugar cereal, do I need to know what that is? Good for you. Oh, is it?
Speaker 4:Well, is I 100% whole grain cereal? Things like a rolled oats.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. I just threw that out for a joke and I'm so happy you didn't know what it is. I'm going a great answer.
Speaker 4:Very hippie alternative household. Remember that I had never had bad friend my entire life. Multicolored cereals were definitely not on the table.
Speaker 2:Okay. How about fruit juice?
Speaker 4:Like freshly squeezed I think can be incorporated into a healthy diet. Probably around one glass per day or less.
Speaker 2:Okay. Milk,
Speaker 4:definitely
Speaker 2:minimal cheese
Speaker 4:again, minimal.
Speaker 2:Okay, so again, you're not saying
Speaker 4:bad news for everyone. I like the with minimal instead of worry because I think that everyone has to find where they fall on the spectrum of health. But in terms of evidence base, I really haven't seen anything with, someone has a really strong healthy whole food plant based nutritional pen that adding these food increases their health and that's why I say the minimal, the federal.
Speaker 2:Okay. How about chicken?
Speaker 4:I think that chicken is probably slightly less bad than the red meat. The problem has become that I think a lot of people have accepted that evidence that we should minimize red mate and therefore have gone on craziness of consuming chicken at every meal. We now know that chicken is almost the number one source of cholesterol and the medic American diet because it replaced a lot of the other foods. So again, I put mate in the less than five to 10% of any nutritional pattern regardless of the source, whether it's red mate fish, Turkey, chicken, any of those.
Speaker 2:Okay. Fish[inaudible]
Speaker 4:yeah, same thing. Unfortunately, I think that the fish itself may have been more nutritious at one point. The more I study the environment, I listened to a lot of stuff from dr Zach Bush and really learning about the toxicity, uh, not just the heavy metals, but also the fact that almost all about ocean and water sources is completely contaminated with oral contraceptive pills and antibiotics. That makes me very paranoid to think what his bio accumulated into the fish flesh. I would have to see a lot more studies on what actually in the fish flesh and then comparing is it the food or is it the contaminants and can we separate those and I don't think we have enough evidence to say that fish is a safe food to consume on a regular basis at this stage.
Speaker 2:Okay. Wheat[inaudible]
Speaker 4:we is very variable. Of course we have the 1% of the population roughly that have celiac disease where weight is a no, no to them. Roughly about 10% of autoimmune conditions to my understanding will also respond to wheat and gluten. Then maybe another 5% of people are kind of wheat insensitive. I'm sorry, weight sensitive. The rest of the population seems to be fine with weight in, it's a whole food. non-GMO non-kin they call Laden organic whole food.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's just wrap this up with now. Now I w had wanted to walk a jump into water fasting, but I think it just be too much. Actually. I wonder if I could get you back on another episode to cover water fasting.
Speaker 4:Oh, I would love to be experienced. I had at true North health center was definitely life changing for me. And I think that we can definitely fill in all the podcasts or people are interested to hear more about that. It was absolutely crazy and I would talk way too much to fit it into five minutes. That's Michelle.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I want you to cover it properly. I don't want to jam it into the end of this episode. So let's put water fasting on hold and I'm so thankful you're willing to do another episode. Let's do that in the
Speaker 4:near future whenever your time allows. And let's finish up here with the evidence based nutrition. So what are we going to have for breakfast? So the big pot of what I like to talk about plant based nutrition is there is such a huge spectrum within that and I think that so much is finding what you like. And I usually when talking to people using what we call motivational interviewing and behavioral change is really starting with what foods do you like. So step one would be let's look at how you're eating. What do you now enjoy for breakfast? And how can we make that more plant based or entirely plant-based? So for example, if someone is currently eating one of those, what did you call it? Alphabets. Multicolored cereal. Okay, let's make the transition to say something like, Oh, wait a big or a shredded weight that still has the identical kind of convenience factor that you used to, you know, maybe switch up your cow's milk for an almond milk or non-dairy substitute, and you're still basically doing the same thing. You're having a bowl of cereal and milk, but you've already made a health goal change. Okay? Now can we add more nutrition? Can we pour some berries on top? Can we add a handful of crush walnuts and flax seeds and chia seeds? Now you've got your pretty solid print yourself. A pretty healthy breakfast. Okay, when that's easy for you. What about substituting that for our complete whole grain? Can we do still cut oatmeal? Can we do rolled oats? Can we do something like that? Okay. On the flip side, are you more, uh, you know, an eggs and bacon type person? Okay, well, what's something similar can you do with scrambled tofu or not ready for that change yet? Can you maybe Chuck in some spinach, some tomatoes, um, you know, some sweet pea, leftover sweet potato into your eggs and kind of bulk out, you know, instead of having four eggs, can you maybe have two eggs and then add some beans, you know, some baked beans on the side, grilled vegetables, and really bulk out your meal to add the nutrition to move away from where you are before and still keeping it to be similar, enjoyable and not completely foreign to what you're typically used to do. So that's kind of where I would go for breakfast. Okay. Lunch again, very, very similar. You know, are you someone that grabs a hamburger? Okay, well, at the place where you're buying a hamburger, what are some healthier choices that they have? You know, so many fast food places are starting to get healthier options, you know, do they offer, say a baked potato? Do they offer a salad? Can you eat half of the meat? Patty, can you go for a plant based Patty, can you make, you know, instead of having fried potatoes, can you maybe grab some carrot sticks or some Apple slices? How can you help the fi what's comfortable for you? And then when that becomes easier, you know, a very common thing that I recommend to people for lunch is 10, you just cook extra dinner and take that with you. That's pretty easy. That's what I typically do. Or if you're on the go, you know, often I don't get a lunch break. What are some grab and grow things. So the, instead of going to the vending machine and just grabbing a bag of chips, can I bring with me some, you know, homeless and Taryn stakes, uh, some fresh fruit, things that I can literally grab and go again, same pattern that making healthier choices and dinner. So dinner again, it depends. It depends how long your hours are. You're like, man, it needs to be the same as lunch cause I'm not home. Paul, do you have time to prepare it? I think that going back to what we were talking about with the power nine is can you share dinner with people? Can you connect with loved ones? Can you take a time to sit down, relaxed, debrief and have an enjoyable evening. I think that's a huge part of dinner that I try and encourage people to do. Then making your choices. I talk a lot about the physicians committee for responsible medicine power play a and kind of the basics of getting all your healthy foods on a plate. So one quarter, uh, fruits and sorry, half the plate would be fruits and vegetables. One quarter would be some kind of whole grain. One quarter of the plate would be beans, like games, split peas, lentils, chickpeas, something like that. And then usually making a dressing sauce or flavoring with some nuts and seeds. That's typically a really good pattern for all meals really. But easiest to do it dinner.
Speaker 2:Okay. Say that one more time. You're dividing your plate into quarters.
Speaker 4:Yeah, roughly quotas. Um, usually we do one quarter vegetables, one quarter fruit. Uh, but this is looking at the whole space of the day. So everything that you eat over the course of the day, if you were to put it on a plate at the end of the day, looking at it. So you know, not everyone wants the vegetables for breakfast. And that's why I say don't look at it over the course of the day, but basically essentially want one quarter of your nutritional pattern. I try and avoid the wet diet cause I hate it about your nutritional patents to be fruits, one quota to me, vegetables, one quarter to be intact, whole grains, a one, quarter to B, legumes or beans, peas, split peas, lentils, chickpeas. And then, um, depending on your pattern, um, of your goals, uh, what you're going for. That would be the portion of nuts, seeds, avocados, and more, uh, uh, calorically dense, uh, fatty foods. And then this is where we came into before we were talking about with nutritional, uh, personalization. So some people do do better with say, maybe less beans and the, I might not agree with their digestion system. They might be working up to it, working on growing their microbiome so they can tolerate it. Same with whole grains as variable amounts of what people need and tolerate, what's their energy levels, their activity levels, how does their body work with grains. And then same with the nuts and we're kind of starting to find more and more evidence with some people definitely do better with more of a higher fat, lower carbohydrate diet and then other people doing better with a higher carbohydrate, lower fat diet and kind of wherever you fit in that spectrum.
Speaker 2:And, and this sounds like if I was to make the shift to what you're talking about here, I would be getting less protein[inaudible] higher carb, probably less fat.
Speaker 4:I think that we often miss the point of nutrition when we focus down on macro nutrients. So the protein part, it's actually, uh, you know, um, surprisingly higher than most people anticipate. In the example I typically give that most people have no understanding of is one chicken breast is approximately the same protein as one head of broccoli. So it's actually not necessarily a huge change in the macronutrient composition. But again, there's so much that comes into that. The protein quality absorbability. What is your personal gut status? What are you absorbing? What are you assimilating? How is that going in your body? Typically? Yes. What you are saying. I, I transition, uh, to a more plant based diet typically does lower the fat but most specifically the saturated fat and cholesterol that tend to be more concentrated in animal products. And that in turn does mean that especially your fiber content, but also your carbohydrate content may be a little higher. But again, there are people out there that are thriving on plant based nutritional patterns that tend to be hiring like the nuts and seeds and avocados, making them not necessarily higher in carbohydrates. I think it's more the fiber, the increases and the saturated fat and cholesterol that tends to go down. But I usually trend people to think more of the dietary or nutritional content as a whole rather than focusing in on numbers and macronutrient composition in general. You know, everything is variable for disease status and not personal needs. But as a general comment, that's what I tend to say.
Speaker 2:Okay, well this is really great stuff. I've really enjoyed the interview. We could go on for a long time. I've got lots more questions I can ask, but I respect your time and, and it took us kind of a while to get going. We had a couple hiccups with the audio and I'm gonna do some editing to splice this together, make it as good as possible. But before we wrap up, is there anything you'd like to talk about a little bit more or anything, any final thoughts you want to leave?
Speaker 4:I think probably the main thing and I hope that I have not come across as particularly, uh, dogmatic or strict or anything in everything we've been talking about. I think that we have a lot of evidence and I think it's great to be aware and not being naive and just understanding what's out there, but knowing that nothing is perfect and also not being too hard on yourself, I think that people get very overwhelmed that it almost seems too difficult to make changes. And that's why I like to talk about the spectrum of health and just thinking, where are you at? What's doable for you? What feels exciting, what feels fun? You know, you want your life to be as enjoyable as possible and health is just one part of it. So of course I'm a medical professional, I'm obsessed with nutrition. I want that to be out there and to know the power of it, but I don't want it to become controlling, upsetting, scary, anything overwhelming. So knowing that there is support that any change that you feel like you can make in that spectrum of getting healthy and keeping it as positive as possible, really happiness is the key to all of life really. And I always throw this in at the end of anything when I talk about nutrition. I'm a huge Mark Twain fan and one of my favorite quotes from him is be careful what you wear, what you read in, um, nutritional textbooks. So medical textbooks, you may just die of a misprint. And I find that so funny because there's been so many things that have changed over the years and I think that while we love evidence, we love learning. We love coming up with guidelines, then sometimes change. And we have to be mindful of that. So just doing whatever makes us happiest and healthiest and feel out best is how I would approach life.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's terrific. And, and it is a great reminder. I think we all understand this, but here, like I said, this is a health show where I focus on three areas, uh, primarily of nutrition, fitness and supplementation. And, and it's a great reminder that those fit into a much larger bucket of overall health and lifestyle and, and social, uh, fabric and all of these things. And you're right in this world, those of us that love this love, the studies that listened to the podcasts that are reading the books, we can get kind of tunnel vision on these things. And so one of the big things I picked up from you today, it was a great reminder of the big picture and how all of it fits into what we really want, which is just a happy, successful life. Right?
Speaker 4:Exactly, exactly. And it's, it's not to deny the power of lifestyle change. You know, we, we would be, it would be immoral of me as, as a medical doctor to say that what you eat doesn't matter. That the amount that you exercise doesn't matter. That all these pillars of health don't matter. Just be happy. Like that's completely false, but it is feeding it into the bigger picture, knowing the power, knowing the evidence, and then being able to make the choices in a way that made you have the, I think it's kinda the key message.
Speaker 2:Excellent. Well, again, thank you so much for being on the show. This has been terrific. How do people learn more about you? Do you have a website, social media? How can people reach out?
Speaker 4:Well, thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Anyone that listened, I'm so passionate about this. I love speaking about it, love trying to help. Just anyone that I can. I always say if I can help just one person, my job is done, where to find me. I'm Dave. I can send you all the links to social media rather than me. In my accented voice, trying to spell my name that has multiple dowels in it. The difference between an a and an a apparently is extremely hard to tell in my accent. But dr Renee Thomas is my website and basically all my links can be found from there. I have Instagram, I have a little bit of a YouTube channel, lots and lots of links to all the podcasts that I've done. Obviously this one is number one. Um, and other articles that I've written, things that I'm involved in. You know, I'm with posting things like conferences. I'm going to places, I'm speaking how we can touch base with me, how you can email me really open to any kind of communication for sure. But I think it's probably easier if I just send you the links rather than me trying to spell them all out. OD already early.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds great. And as I mentioned, we'll put all of this on blog dot[inaudible] dot com and you can find all these links and various studies mentioned and um, a lot of these principles will lay them out and make it simple for you if you want to follow up and learn more about this. So dr Renee Thomas, thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much for having me. Really, really appreciate it. It's been, it's been really fun.
Speaker 2:Excellent. And devote to those of you listening. This is Dave Sherwin wishing you health and success.
Speaker 7:[inaudible]
Speaker 2:okay, well thanks again for listening and don't forget about that coupon code insider to get anything you like@nairobi.com at 15% off and check out the health and fitness for busy professionals, free mini course at[inaudible] dot com there's plenty of other really good resources on the resource page there. By the way, check them all out. D I R. O B i.com. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 7:[inaudible].