Baseball’s Infamous Scandal Inspired Its Biggest Tech Breakthrough...And Changed the Game Forever - John Hankins, Co-Inventor & Owner of PitchCom

With sign-stealing scandals shaking Major League Baseball, the game needed a solution. Enter PitchCom, the cutting-edge communication technology that’s changing the way baseball is played.

In this episode of The TechEd Podcast, host Matt Kirchner sits down with John Hankins, co-inventor and owner of PitchCom, to unpack the surprising origins of the technology (it was inspired by John's stage mentalism experience!), the innovative and unhackable tech that comprises the PitchCom system, and why it has completely changed the game of baseball. 

Beyond baseball, PitchCom is a case study in applied technology—how engineering, wireless communication, encryption, and even sound design can be used in unexpected ways. The lesson for educators? What your students learn in the technical education classroom—electronics, software, mechanics, and problem-solving—can lead to groundbreaking inventions in any arena.

Listen to learn:

• How stage mentalism, sound engineering, and encryption tech came together to create PitchCom
• How PitchCom reduced wild pitches to the lowest levels in MLB history and sped up game play by cutting down time lost to sign-calling
• Why PitchCom’s encryption is so secure that it’s mathematically impossible for teams to hack—more secure than the number of atoms in the universe
• How engineering students can apply their skills in creative industries—from sports tech to entertainment and beyond
• Why college baseball, the Canadian Football League, and even scuba diving are exploring this technology
• What future inventors need to know about turning ideas into patented, market-ready products

If you teach technical education or have students interested in technology, this episode is a must-listen. The next big innovation could come from your classroom!

3 Big Takeaways from this Episode:

1. Innovation thrives in times of urgency and challenge.

PitchCom wasn’t just a cool idea—it was a solution to a crisis in baseball. The Houston Astros’ sign-stealing scandal created an undeniable need for secure communication, and John Hankins applied existing technology in a new way to fill that gap. Great inventions don’t start with ideas—they start with problems.

2. True innovation comes from blending different disciplines.

John’s background as an engineer, patent attorney, and stage mentalist gave him a unique perspective on communication and encryption. Whether it’s combining sports and tech, or magic and engineering, the biggest breakthroughs come from crossing industry boundaries and thinking outside traditional silos.

3. Data is the future of every industry.

PitchCom started as a tool to prevent sign-stealing, but now it’s unlocking new levels of player performance data—tracking pitch accuracy, command, and strategy in real time. From sports to manufacturing to education, those who understand and leverage real-time data insights will lead the future.

Resources in this Episode:

To learn more about PitchCom's technology, visit: pitchcom.com

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Transcript

Matt Kirchner: 0:08

It's The TechEd Podcast. My name is Matt Kirk near your host. We're talking this week innovation. We're talking technology. We'll talk entrepreneurship. We'll also talk one of my absolute favorite topics, which is the game of baseball. Lifelong baseball fan, in my case, the Milwaukee Brewers. So we're going to talk all about the game of baseball. We're going to talk about how technology and innovation are affecting America's favorite pastime. We're doing that this week with John Hankins. John is the CO inventor and owner of pitch com. If you're not familiar with that technology, you are going to be it is fascinating, really, really cool stuff. So let me just start out, John by welcoming you to The TechEd Podcast, and thank you for being with us. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate your having me on so your origin story at pitch com is really, really cool. We were connected by a mutual friend by the name of Joe ray. So thanks and shout out to Joe for putting us together. Since then, I've had the opportunity to learn quite a bit about your technology before we get into that. Just give us a really, really quick 32nd overview of what pitch com is and how

John Hankins: 1:09

it works. Pitch com is a way for players or coaches to communicate with each other on the field, specifically right now for baseball, it's a way of covertly providing signals such as pitches and locations without actually having to speak. Okay,

Matt Kirchner: 1:24

awesome. So you're an engineer, probably not surprising with this kind of technology. You're a patent attorney, which is pretty cool. You're also a stage Mentalist, which I want to learn a little bit about that. So tell us about how all three of those, the engineering side of things, the IP and patent attorney side, and then being a stage Mentalist, and what have you learned from all of those experiences that helped you lay the foundation for your company? Sure,

John Hankins: 1:47

as an engineer, I shouldn't say I was really an engineer. I was an engineering student. I graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, but not being that great at math, I went right into being an attorney. I was more of a, I would say a renaissance person, you know, in other words, being able to do math. But also I was involved in history, and I went to more of a liberal arts engineering school, so it wasn't as intense as like an MIT, or anything like that, but it was intense for me. So I, I decided to become an attorney instead my senior year, and now I still had the background of electrical engineering, so that helped me understand, when this came up of how to do something, I had the experience and knowledge to say what would work and what wouldn't, what kind of frequencies would be good, what kind of frequencies would not be good. So what kind of communication? How would we be able to resolve this. As a patent attorney, I led a lot of brainstorming sessions so knowing how to think about things and how to innovate, and then, as a stage Mentalist, I had been around magic since I was like five years old, and mind reading, and that really played a lot into this, how to communicate on stage, providing cues, controlling music cues, and controlling music cues really was the genesis of Hitchcock.

Unknown: 3:07

So tell me,

Matt Kirchner: 3:08

when you say stage Mentalist, what does that individual do?

John Hankins: 3:11

It does mind reading on stage, or at least the illusion of it? It depends on your philosophy of of how real it is, it is relatively very real looking. And sometimes it is real, really cool. And I can see how that would completely influence the work that you're doing as we get into the technology here in just a moment. As a patent attorney, did you specialize in a certain part of a patent or I pila, I was a patent attorney that basically got patents for people. So I worked before the patent office. Interesting. So you were, you were an individual that would work with a company, work with an inventor, work with an entrepreneur that had an idea, that would then work the patent through the process to actually get it through the complete process of patenting an idea or patenting a product, correct, right? And typically, large companies. So, you know, a lot of semiconductors, computers, medical devices, car companies like Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Nissan, I worked with. So I worked on at least over 10,000 patents.

Matt Kirchner: 4:09

Wow. So really, really cool. And so somebody that's that certainly knows stranger innovation, and here you are working with all these companies coming up with these great ideas, and then taking those ideas and getting them protected and commercializing them. And you're seeing other people doing that, and then comes the time for John to find a way to do that himself. I know a lot of what inspired this technology, and many of us who follow baseball will remember the Houston Astros sign stealing scandal, huge, huge event in baseball, really up ended the sport. So tell us about the scandal and then how it led to the invention of pitch count. Sure, I'm going to take you back 150 years, though awesome, I'll

John Hankins: 4:48

try and keep it short, but the science stealing has been going on for 150 years, ever since people put down fingers to identify there's a case where somebody was standing a third base coach on a box and nine. 1900 and there was an electrical shock that would shock this guy whenever a fastball, and then he would relay that to the batter. So somebody with binoculars would shock the third base coach. His leg would jingle. And they only discovered that when someone slid past third base and on a muddy day and it tore up the ground, and they found the electrical underneath one of the biggest home runs of all time was 1951 with Bobby Thompson hitting the home run against the Dodgers. And you know, that was a very famous home run. But it turned out that they were stealing signs with binoculars and lighting up the scoreboard, putting up a certain light if a fastball was coming. So it's been going on, and now, with technology increasing. People are using Apple watches. That had happened even before the Astro sign stealing scandal came up. So with greater technology, the greater opportunities for sign stealing. Then with the Astros, what they did was actually kind of old school. They used the center field camera and it focused in on the catch. They put a television. This is all alleged, but, you know, has come out in the books. They put a television right next to the dugout opening. And then whenever, if they saw a fastball and decoded that for a fastball, they would bang a trash can to say a fastball, and it wasn't, there would be no bang. So people would expect an off speed pitch. And just for your listeners, it's a huge difference knowing a fastball is coming or a curveball. And the reason why is because if it's a fastball and it's coming at your head, you're going to duck out of the way. It's a curveball, and you duck out of the way, you look really stupid. I think exactly drops right into the strike zone. Yep. Yeah, exactly. And so these guys are, you know, I'm not sure exactly what the difference would be. I wondered about that with the batting average difference, but it made a huge difference for the Astros. They won the World Series based on this, I shouldn't say based on it, but allegations contributed. Contributed. Yeah, so in 2019 2019, the scandal broke, and the only way it really did was because a former Astros pitcher talked about it. You know, it's been unwritten. You know, these sign stealing scandals have been unwritten, but people know about it. They knew about it when they were playing the Astros. They've known about it for a long time. So they've used multiple signs, you know, very complicated sign systems. You know, the third sign after the number two or something, or the second sign after the last one I called. It's incredible. And the problem is it creates a time delay sure in

Matt Kirchner: 7:27

the game, right? You're waiting for the pitcher to figure out the catcher is calling for and that just takes time and extends the game, right? Absolutely.

John Hankins: 7:33

And so games really went from two hours and 15 minutes to three hours 40 minutes on average. Every year for the last 20 years, they had gone up, sure. And

Matt Kirchner: 7:44

now with the pitch clock, that even complicates it more, right? So now you're trying to get that information back and forth. You've got less time for you know, again, our non baseball fans, there's only a certain amount of time now that a pitcher has to deliver a pitch after the previous pitch, correct?

John Hankins: 7:57

20 seconds, or is it now 18 and 15 seconds? So 18 seconds with a man on base and 15 without, I don't think they would have been able to do the pitch timer without pitch. Calm, interesting, absolutely fascinating.

Matt Kirchner: 8:10

So this whole sign stealing scandal, and it is fascinating to me. I mean, you talk about Apple Watches, even technology from years and years ago of using an electrical shock and now we're literally sending a signal to a batter by banging on a trash can, which is about as UN technical as it gets, but it worked for that period of time. So clearly that indicates, for us the need for a solution like this, right? If we're extending the game because a catcher is trying to get a signal out to a pitcher and taking forever to do it, because of how complicated that needs to be, so that somebody doesn't steal the sign let the batter know what pitch is coming. So this becomes the Genesis your product or your solution, allowing catchers and pitchers to communicate wirelessly with one another. So walk us through at a high level how that works. What does the catcher have? What does the pitcher have? What information are they sending? Help us understand that. So one

John Hankins: 8:58

of the things that MLB wanted, and one of the innovations that we came up with was how to do this without making traditional fans very upset. So it's kind of hidden by it all. So we use a transmitter about the size of a credit card and width and length, which a catcher holds, typically on their shin guard, and it's a nine button transmitter. Has nine buttons, and so from those nine buttons, and these guys are really good at it, like playing a video game, they push a button or so, and what it does is it sends a signal, a highly encrypted numerical signal, essentially from one to 117 so that number goes out, and everybody who's wearing a receiver, those receivers will decode that number and it says which audio track to play. So picture each receiver being an mp three player like an iPod, the old iPod, people still have them, and those tracks are listed from one to 117 so the transmitter will send number seven and number 23 and all the receiver. Us all, C number seven and 23 and then we'll play fastball. And then the location high inside

Matt Kirchner: 10:06

got it so the pitcher, I guess, starting with the catcher. So the catchers behind the plate, they're using, I'm assuming they're throwing hand and they're keying in these numbers into something that's on their shin guard, the size of a credit card that sends a number, if you will, to the receiver, whoever's wearing that receiver, that then receiver, converts that or into, is it a voice that they hear? Do they actually hear what, like, what you said? Or no,

John Hankins: 10:30

it converts it into a number. And these are all audio tracks that are pre recorded. Got it? Okay? So the picture, here's a number. Yeah, if you've gone through a McDonald's and you have that radio, you know, fries with that, right? That's a problem. We don't have that problem because everything's already recorded and it's at the receiver already, so all you're doing is you're telling the receiver. It's like a remote control for the catcher to tell the receiver what to play, got

Matt Kirchner: 10:56

it, and then the pitcher hears that and knows exactly what pitch to throw and where you're located,

John Hankins: 11:01

and very importantly, so does the catcher. So this has had a major effect on cross ups, so pass balls and wild pitches have been reduced to the lowest level in history.

Matt Kirchner: 11:13

Wow, just because of the communication, because the catcher knows what's coming in, is going to position themselves to exactly,

John Hankins: 11:19

okay, awesome. And that was one of the things that I really wanted to do. Now, one of the interesting things also is you can record it in any voice and anything else you want, and we can provide a receiver that is in Spanish for the pitcher and English for the catcher, or German or French. Doesn't matter. Every player who's on the field can hear it in a different language, fascinating,

Matt Kirchner: 11:41

and you're encrypting that data, right? Did I hear that? Right? So how do I prevent the opposing team from getting the same information? There

John Hankins: 11:48

are more codes that you can use than there are atoms in the universe, so the odds having the same one are very minimal, like zero. If you take a deck of cards, and this is going to freak all your listeners out. If you take a deck of cards out right now and shuffle it just a couple times, and then look at the order of those 52 cards, that order will never have been done in the history of the universe, ever. Yeah, people are like, no way. And I

Matt Kirchner: 12:15

heard that within the last year. Somebody mentioned that to me, and that just it blows you away, right? You have 52 cards and a deck of cards, and when you shuffle it several times, and it's never been in that order ever, but then you start to think about the factorials of how many different possibilities there are in terms of the order of those cards. And it's absolutely fascinating. So in the same sense, the odds of an opposing team being able to pick up this information would be the same odds as trying to guess the order in a deck of cards,

John Hankins: 12:42

yeah, or which atom is in which place in the universe? I mean, it's just crazy, huh? Yeah,

Matt Kirchner: 12:48

that's absolutely fascinating. So in terms of how this then affects the flow of the game, certainly, we're taking less time to get between the catcher in the pitcher. We're reducing pass balls reducing catchers running around behind the plate trying to grab a ball that got by them. How do the players feel about that? I mean, certainly the pitcher and the catcher probably appreciate the opportunity to be more accurate and to have that game flow. That in that regard, if I'm a base runner and I'm looking to advance by having a pass ball, is that affecting the way that they look at this technology at all? I don't think so. For one, they made it a little bit easier, they made the bases bigger, and they also reduced the number of throw overs. I think the players would rather not be on the field for three and a half hours. You know, if you ever watch a game and guys are standing around because they're just it's a long time between innings, or long time between pitches, they're standing with their hands on by their sides, and they're not focused having a game going like this is just, it's more engagement for the fans and more engagement for the players. Yeah, you think about a player, and you're playing, especially in, you know, in a southern locale, in an outdoor stadium, and it's, you know, 104 degrees outside, and, you know, you just as soon be off the field, I suppose, in two hours and 15 minutes, two and a half hours, than

John Hankins: 14:00

three and a half absolutely, you know, players are like us. They're real. Yeah, exactly,

Matt Kirchner: 14:04

yeah. As unreal as some of their skills and their abilities seem, they're human beings, just like anybody else. So I completely get it. So let's talk about how widely pitch com has been adapted across major league baseball. So you suggested that in the MLB, the coaches can't use it with their players. Is that correct for starters?

John Hankins: 14:22

That's right. That's right. Only five players are allowed to use it. They eat that. Very strict. So traditionally, only the catcher, shortstop, second baseman, pitcher and center fielder could see the signs. So that's five players. So that's why they keep that, you know, some modicum of tradition. It maintains the integrity of the game. Yeah, yes. Well, just also for traditionalists, you know, because, if nothing else, fans are very traditional minded. Never noticed that in baseball? No, of course not. But what is unlike anything before they allowed pitchers to use it for the first time last year. Now pitchers can wear a transmitter on their. Out or on their glove, and they'll call back the sign, some like Max Scherzer, you know, very veteran pitchers are more likely to be able to call their own pitches. Sometimes they take it away pitchers, because all they want to do is throw fast balls. Now, like, no, no, you can't do that anymore, but it's nice, because what happens is, although it works, where they can just shake and the catcher calls another pitch within a second or two. Sometimes they feel like the pitcher can just push back a button and tell them, Okay, no, we're gonna go fastball. Yeah. So it's almost becomes conversational. So if we think about again in the game of baseball, and anybody who watches it regularly has seen this, where a catcher will call a pitch and then the pitcher shakes his head and waits for another sign. Now we can kind of have that direct conversation. So if the catcher is calling for and the pitcher wants to throw a slider, all we do is, rather than shaking it off and hearing fastball and shaking it off and hearing fastball, you can always just single back, no, I want to throw a slider, and they've got that conversation going between them. Am I understanding that? Right? That is right. And some of the other things that can happen this, as you say, it's a conversation. It's not just pitch and location. We can do defensive signals, like setting up a defense or calling a like a timing glove, a drop glove, timing, pick second base, and they know that, and the shortstop can run over at the right moment. But there's other things too that they do, which is things like, trust me. So the pitcher doesn't it shakes off, and the catcher can push a button and it says, Trust me. And then we actually had someone put No, trust me. And then there's, uh, that's awesome. There's some of the teams get a little bit more scatological, so to speak, where they will say, Yeah, heck yeah. Except they use more sure, have more graphic terms, yeah. And there's some development we're talking to a company now that does training for softball players and young women. And they find they respond better to women's voices. They have certain power words that help them. So this is a development tool Josh hater of the Padres formula the brewers. Yeah, exactly. He likes to listen to himself, so he thinks he's the best person to motivate himself. So this is a way that our tool can be used to enhance player performance. Absolutely fascinating. So how widely adapted is it? Is everybody using this? Or just certain teams? Tell me about that. Everybody's been using it since 2022 after about three weeks, I think Alex Cora, the Red Sox, was one of the holdouts, and he said, Well, this is stupid. Why aren't we using this? Everybody else has an advantage on us. And so within about four weeks, every team, every pitcher, every catcher, was using it. And now that was 2022 you know, 2324 and now 2526 they're never going to stop using an Allen tech. Yeah, that's fascinating. And so you're continuing to innovate the product. We're now doing data collection. We don't do it at the MLB level yet because of they don't want us to yet, although that could change. But we've created a new product that will keep track of all the pitch calls, and that way they can download it. There's also, if you understand the difference between control and command, control talks about how many strikes you're throwing, but the strike zone is a very large doesn't seem large if you're having trouble throwing strikes, but it is relatively large. 84 baseballs can fit inside a strike zone. Wow. But what command means? Where are you putting it in the strike zone? If you put it in the middle of the strike zone, and good hitters will hit it out. So what we're doing is we're able to measure, no one has ever been able to do this in game before, measure the difference between where the pitch was intended to be thrown and where it actually ended up. Because we know where it ended up. It's Hawkeye, you know, which is a ball flight measurement system, but no one ever knew where it was supposed to be. Now we can measure it and get it down to the inch and see which players actually have good command, right?

Matt Kirchner: 18:49

No, that's fascinating. And not just I mean, as my wheels are turning, I mean, certainly that is good command. What pitch calls are most effective, which pitcher catcher combinations are most effective, most efficient, I would think you can gather that kind of data also thinking about, I mean, so you're tracking data on defensive shifts as well, right? You can, yes, you can track anything that the thing calls, yeah. So now you can almost combine all three of those, or all four of those, and say, okay, here is the pitch call, here's the pitcher, here's the catcher, here's the shift, here's the result. I mean, just the data that you would have available to yourself, you know, as a general manager, if you will, or a data analyst for a baseball team. I mean that that really that I geek out on that, as you can probably already tell, that is really fascinating.

John Hankins: 19:31

They love data. Hey, base baseball fans and baseball teams, they love data. We found that out

Matt Kirchner: 19:38

absolutely well. And yeah, they're again being a being a fan of the brewers and a huge, huge they, I mean, they've just been, they would, they led, really, in so many ways, the whole transformation, using data and Major League Baseball and set the example during the Craig Council years. So fascinating. We're just hoping Craig doesn't take that to the Cubs, right? So far, so good if you're a brewers fan, but we'll see what

John Hankins: 19:58

happens. Sure you potentially. Didn't want that, right? Exactly, all right. So was this your idea, John? I mean, who came up with this? It was my original idea. Honestly, the night I heard it break, the news broke about the Astros, and this was after they had beaten the Yankees. And I will admit to being a Yankees fan, even though now I say my name is Johnny impartial, the mind mafia name I have today, the impartial. But

Matt Kirchner: 20:25

I grew up a Yankee fan when you got a California license plate behind you and you're a Yankees fan, yeah. Well,

John Hankins: 20:31

fans plant, of course. Okay, they had just been beaten by the Astros in 2019 and there was talk about Jose Altuve wearing a buzzer under his shirt. Frankly, we could have provided that buzzer, but we didn't. But you know, buzzers are easy to make. We actually provide a buzzer now for MLB, for a clock com, which tells the umpires when the timer goes to zero. You don't want umpires looking you know, you want them focused on the strike zone and not the pitch clock. So when the timer hits zero, we give them a buzz. So that's a small thing. No one even knows we do. It was announced, so I can say it, but no one cares. That's

Matt Kirchner: 21:08

who I care. That's really, really cool. So you come up with this idea, there's a bazillion people who come up with great ideas that don't get them implemented across all of a major league sport like Major League Baseball. What happens after you come up with the idea, you've got to develop the product, I assume, and then you go to the MLB, or how do you get it implemented? I actually

John Hankins: 21:26

did a brainstorm session with myself. I've led hundreds of brainstorm sessions as a patent attorney, where you have six people in a room, and you walk out of the place with maybe, I used to be able to walk out with like 200 patentable ideas in like, six hours from these guys. It was incredible, especially when you get people going back and forth. But I did it with myself. I said, this is kind of interesting. How can we do it, you know? We don't want talking. We want catcher in picture on the same wavelength, you know? So they both know it has to look traditional, no lights, no microphones, no watches, things like that. So I came up with this idea of a push button, and the way I did was because of my mentalism, I had worked with my partner, Craig, my now partner. I've known him for 10 years, and this will go on to something I'll talk about later, but he had created something to control music on stage. So a lot of times, you know, especially if you're not David Copperfield, you got to do your performances by yourself. So you call music to make it spooky, to make it bouncy, to make it fun, whatever an introduction. And so we have ways of controlling music cues. And so essentially, that's what we have. Are music tracks except their fastball. You know, the music's not as good as Taylor Swift's or whatever, but it's interesting. You know, we could play music out of our tracks. But so

Matt Kirchner: 22:46

you develop the technology, you do the brainstorming session, and then do you just go to the commissioner's office? Or how do you get this implemented?

John Hankins: 22:54

The first thing, and this is what I advise. I had a patent application on file within a week. Yeah, being a patent attorney was kind of easier for me and my partner. I called my partner and I said, you know, he wasn't my partner. He was a supplier of magician stuff. He does work with David Copperfield, David Blaine, you know, those type of people. I said, Is this something you'd be interested in? He said, Yes. So we had a prototype done within a week of that. It was bone conducting then. So then this was right before the COVID hit. So I wrote to the commissioner, or the commissioner's office, and I said, I've got this great idea to help you guys on I sent them my patent. They said, Oh, we got something just like it, yeah, yeah, you had. I saw the quick look on your face, the same, same, like, yeah, was that bud sealing? Or who is the Commissioner at that time? Well, it wasn't the commissioner. I wrote to the technology person, okay, got it. Rob Manfred was the commissioner, and they said we got something just like it. And I was like, really? But nothing happened. So I tried to contact reporters, lots of reporters, anybody who had written about the sign stealing scandal, they weren't interested. One person responded back and said, when you get into MLB, then we'll talk to you. And I'm like, Well, I don't need you then, right? Exactly, yeah. Now they're all calling, right? Yeah. And then I got on MLB radio and talked to them for a little bit, and they quickly dismissed the idea, fine. So one of my other passions is golf. So I was at a golf meeting. It couldn't get in anywhere, right? Couldn't get to MLB at all. And I was having lunch with a bunch of guys with somebody's birthday and I mentioned, they asked what I was doing. I said, I got this, but I can't get into MLB. And this guy said, Well, I know a guy who used to be an attorney at MLB. Maybe he has some contacts. So I sent him my video, blah, blah, blah, and we hooked up with this guy who put it on his head and said, You guys know what you got here. This is fantastic. So then the pandemic hit, and MLB was shut down for nine months. So we didn't get into MLB until October of during the bubble, they had a bubble. During the playoffs, we put it on the number two Commissioner's head, the Deputy Commissioner, october 2020, I'm guessing exactly, and weirdly, it was in my backyard. They were having the bubble in my backyard, the golf course in my backyard. That was, you know, kismet, as far as we were concerned. Put it on the guy's head. And a former catcher was there as well, who was helping as a special assistant, and they went, Oh my God, this solves all of our problems. So at that point, we were like, Okay. And then they they asked us, well, can you meet with 20 of our executives tomorrow by zoom? And we said, okay, but even then, there was a lot of bumps on the road. You know, we had bone conducting stuff, which was a challenge, and then, because of the pandemic was still going on, we couldn't test it during training. We had to drop our case off in the parking lot of the spring training facilities. Someone had to come and pick it up, bring it in, and we weren't allowed to be there while they were testing it, and so we couldn't show it how it worked, or anything like that. But the response was, can we have it now from all the teams she tested it. Who are those early teams? Can you say yeah, they were the Arizona teams, like San Francisco Giants and the Cardinals, or, I think they're Cardinals. I know the Giants for sure. Maybe the rays Dodgers, all the ones training in Arizona, because we're at Scottsdale, by the way, that's where we're located. Got it. So it was kind of easy for us, but again, that was at that point, you know, we'll try it. So we negotiated the contract that would let them try it for the year, in July 1, we had to pass safety testing, where they put our stuff against the steel plate and shot baseballs at 100 miles an hour at it, we failed that the first three times shards would come off. And we learned a little bit. And now you can drive truck over it. You make it out of the same stuff to make the black box out of on the airplanes, I'm assuming, right? It's bulletproof, right? No, we actually use just 3d printing, but it was a better material. We were using our own crappy 3d printer. But, you know, we figured out how to do it, but you know, we changed the design a little bit. It was great working with MLB that way. Then they tested it in a minor league in 2021 for like, two months. And then in 2022 we faced another problem with the lockout. Oh, yeah, I suppose in training, Yep, yeah. So you want to be doing all this testing, and there's no baseball yet. No yet, no and so we only had a month to convince MLB teams that they wanted it. And fortunately, one of the best teams in testing things out and trying innovations was the Tampa Bay race. They loved it. And the day before the season started, it was either going to be in double A or it was going to be in the major leagues, one or the other, and they called us and said, it doesn't make any sense to test it in double A we really want to see what, what it's like in a stadium we're going to be in the MLB. And that was a good day. Yeah, I was going

Matt Kirchner: 27:54

to What did that feel like? Right? Is that a phone call? Is that a meeting? How did you get that news? It was a phone call. I

John Hankins: 27:59

remember exactly where I was when they said it, and the news was just incredible. You know, as a huge baseball fan, right? I, you know, I wanted to play center field for the Yankees, and I didn't play center field for my high school team, so I was, like, eight levels down from that, but now we're in the Hall of Fame. That's awesome. The first one they've used is in the I'm in the Hall of Fame before, like Pete Rose and Barry Bonds. Yeah, exactly. Well,

Matt Kirchner: 28:23

and you didn't gamble on baseball or use steroids either, so you got that going for you. But, all right, that's just such a cool story. So I mean, are there any, like, really cool feedback you've got from players? A really cool story about, here's how it changed the game, or here's an impact it had on a specific game or a specific situation, share something like that. We really

John Hankins: 28:43

are kind of isolated from the players a little bit. So what we see are things from the news which we eclipse of and for example, like Shohei Otani getting picked off. The Yankees Nestor Ortez was saying, I was sitting there, and all of a sudden I hear in my head pick off. I turned around and picked them off. Through over there, just wheeled around and picked off. Ohtani, that's awesome. So that was kind of cool, like that I had, you know, now we're in college, and I met with a new college that just started using our system for the first time. And, you know, we like to visit our teams if we can. And so this weekend I was there, it was their first time using it, and the guy came over and he said, You're John. I want to give you a hug. This was incredible for our team, and that's what you love hearing, for sure. Those

Matt Kirchner: 29:28

are awesome, awesome stories. So a little bit on the business model, without sharing anything you can't. I mean, is your contract with mutual league baseball? Is it with the teams? You know? What's the revenue model? I mean, what can you share about that? Well, I'll tell

John Hankins: 29:40

you, we lease everything. We never sell our product. So it's a lease, which means anything breaks, we replace it for free right away. And like MLB gets brand new stuff every year. And big MLB is very concerned about competition, you know, making everything fit. So our lease is with MLB and not with the individual teams. Because. Maybe there'll be certain teams which we won't name, who won't want anything, and then other ones do. But MLB has an interest in making sure everybody plays quickly, plays fairly, so I think that's why they do it that way. In college, we have individual contracts with each team the SEC, which is one of the most important conferences, we have a deal with the entire conference, and that's great, because they kind of like roll the roast. In a lot of ways. It's fascinating,

Matt Kirchner: 30:27

you and maybe baseball doesn't work this way. You'd almost think that the technology would start out in college and then make its way to the Major League Baseball. But in this case, it was the opposite. Well, it happened

John Hankins: 30:36

at the same time. Actually, there's another company that was using wrist watches, and at the same time, we were introduced in MLB, and we're kind of supplanting them now, because people like the audio better, although certain coaches, they say, Well, this is we're used to using this. And it's like, it's only 2022, you started using it, so yeah, but they're traditionalists, right? Yeah. Air quote, traditionalists, right, yeah, because it's three or four years old? Yeah, yeah, exactly. They also had been using walkie talkies to the catcher only. Yeah. Quite the advancement there. So on the IP side, what's in the patent? What part of this is protected? Obviously, you want to make sure that you've got that market position protected. And if anybody knows how to do that, it's a patent attorney. What part of this is protected? Well, we're about to get our fifth patent. So the idea of having stored audio in an audio that you will push a button and play a remote track, it's quite broad. It's quite a good patent. I have, yeah, lots of applications for that. I would think, yeah. I was very pleased about that. We also have patents on the data collection. We're working on a patent on the command data. We now have wristwatch I told you, like they've been using wristwatches where the tracks are stored on the wristwatch, or display tracks. So that one's we expect to come out soon be issued. So we're trying to cover the whole gamut, absolutely and

Matt Kirchner: 31:57

protecting all that, obviously super important in so many different applications outside of just Major League Baseball. You know, I'm a football fan. That's probably not surprising. A Green Bay Packers fan. You think about Jordan, love checking the plays on his forearm, and since all applications, they're preventing false starts or off size penalties for football, all those applications, I'm a huge cycling fan, and we've had race radio and cycling for as long as I can remember, quite some time to be able to send information back and forth between cycling teams and team cars and so on. What are some of the other nations you're a golf fan? I mean, are there other applications that you're working on outside of Major League Baseball? Well,

John Hankins: 32:32

for one, we're working on college baseball. We're in Korea right now. We're in Taiwan, we're in Mexico, we're in Dominican Republic. So those baseball teams, but we're in softball, so it's a huge thing. It's a number three sport in ESPN, wow. I didn't realize that. Well, I absolutely fast pitch softball. It's fascinating. I love it. Oh yeah, and they're serious, and those girls are women, I should say, are really good. I didn't know about this beforehand, and it's like, wow. But we're now exploring football. We've been contacted by the Canadian Football League, and so you are one of our first entrees into football. What's

Matt Kirchner: 33:08

the application in football? Is it getting plays into the quarterback? Or what's the main application there? Well, imagine

John Hankins: 33:13

every player hearing that. No more huddles, every player can hear it. And what's really cool, every player might only be able to hear their assignment. So you push a button, everybody hears only their assignment. So now wide receivers don't have to listen to all the other stuff and just figure out their route. Yeah,

Matt Kirchner: 33:30

and then all the decoding that has to happen in their brain between the huddle and getting lined up for the play, all that, all that becomes automatic.

John Hankins: 33:37

I forget people's name as soon as I shake hands with them, and so I can't imagine, like huddles, but now no more huddles, and also the quarterback make an audible at the line using a small transmitter, and everybody hears it without having to scream and shout and wave his hand. Yeah,

Matt Kirchner: 33:52

no more crowd noise on third down, screwing up the offensive play, because everybody got it right, right at the line of scrimmage, huh? Right? Yeah. Just fascinating, any other applications that occur to you or that you're working on that our audience should know about sure, like scuba diving, you can't talk during scuba diving, but you might want to, if you have something underneath your mask or whatever you could hear it, that would be anything nursing. So like a nurse walks around and they could get a buzzer, some that tells them to come but wouldn't it be better to know what is needed so someone could push a button that says, I need medicine for sure, and it just to change lives in a positive way and make somebody's job more efficient, easier, more effective, what have you? Certainly there's a tremendous amount of fulfillment that comes from that tremendous amount of fulfillment that comes from being an entrepreneur, from being an innovator. And then as much as we've got a lot of educators and a lot of students that listen to this podcast, John, if you've got some thoughts or advice on somebody's got a great idea, and in your particular case, obviously one that has gone a long, long way. What advice do you have to somebody, whether it's a student or an educator who's trying. That student or has an idea of their own about turning ideas into reality? Well,

John Hankins: 35:04

I'd say, first of all, I've been a patent attorney, so you see a lot of stuff, but the people who really come up with the ideas are the ones who are well steeped in the technology, well steeped in the industry. They know it. People who come up with an idea, oh, for an automobile, there are a lot of automobile engineers to come up with a new like cover or something, or a new thing that sits in your car to hold your cup holder. No, don't do that stuff. But first, learn everything there is to know about the industry you want to innovate in. Knowledge is huge. And I think that's like number one, because if you know what you're doing, then you know what not to do. You know what's tried before, and then be open to failure and be nimble. So what happened? And this is a really, I mean, it's a true story. We started with bone conducting, where we had bone conduct, which is what, specifically you've used that term a few times, just to make sure everybody knows what that is. So bone conducting is where you have, like, a little vibrator that goes next to your temples. And rather than play a speaker, a sound, audible sound, you can, like, replicate it by putting your fingers in your ears and talking. You can hear yourself inside your head, and it's pretty cool. But the problem is, we discovered it wasn't loud enough, and to make it loud enough, it would have rattled somebody's skull, but it was very sexy sounding. So we had originally sounded, you know, because we were worried about anybody else hearing it, so bone conducting guaranteed that no one else could hear it. Well, it turned out the problem wasn't trying to keep it low enough, it was making it loud enough, because in MLB stadiums, it's hugely loud. So we had approached MLB with this bone conducting idea, and they tried it. That was our prototype. So now we realize that it just wasn't going to be loud enough, because we've got to overcome 120 decibels, which is like a jet engine sometimes, wow. And the bone conducting problem would have gone out to like 8085 so we changed it, but it was a huge decision on our part, because we had kind of sold MLB on this bone conducting stuff, and so instead, now we're doing a speaker. Do we do that or not? You know, how clean do we come to them? And so we did. We told them this was, you know, a problem, not a problem, but we switched to speaker, and it was fine, no issues, because it works. But the story is being able to change, be able to move off of what you're doing. And the last thing I would say is, it's huge. It's collaboration. I couldn't have done this by myself. Everybody wants to be the sole Thomas Edison, by the way, who worked with a lot of people and failed a lot of times, too, by the way, yes, exactly. What do you think? Like 1000 times? But the last one was the one

Matt Kirchner: 37:41

that, yeah, we found 9999 ways not to invent the electric light bulb. I think was what his line was. Yeah,

John Hankins: 37:47

right. But I worked with this guy, Craig full of said he, I want to shout him out. He's just absolutely incredible to work with. He's my co owner and partner. But I knew it would work, because I know him, and I knew that I built on work that he had done already, and that's the best thing, too. Build on other people's work. Don't copy it, but build on it. And that's how patents work. You all work, you know, and on the shoulders of giants without

Matt Kirchner: 38:12

a doubt. So pick something you know is certainly really, really good advice in your particular case, being fascinated and being a baseball fan didn't hurt. But pick something that you know. If you're going to innovate in that space, don't do something that everybody else is into. Really, really hard to be successful, be open to failure, and make sure that you're collaborating with the right people. All really, really good advice for our budding entrepreneurs, as far as thinking innovatively, and, you know, you think about, you've got really cool technology in the, you know, kind of the magic space, and then you're bringing that into major league baseball, in terms of bringing innovative ideas across different disciplines. Do you have thought thoughts on that? Sean,

John Hankins: 38:48

yeah. And you know what? It comes from, magic, actually. So magicians walk into a store, whether it's staples or just looks online, when you see something, you say, Well, how can I use this? How can I fool someone with this. And there was a great guy who did a whole magic show based upon stuff he found in a coffee shop with Swift sticks and packets of sugar and everything else. He took the things that were there and decided, What can I do with these? But like with equipment, devices, any kind of engineering stuff, think about your discipline, whatever you want to create, and then be open to looking at things and saying, How can I use this in what I'm doing?

Matt Kirchner: 39:25

Take the comment and find a way to make it uncommon. Take common things, find ways to use them from an innovative standpoint. Really, really good advice for our students and for our educators that are training them and preparing them for whatever comes next. Speaking of that education pathway, and we all have our own version of it, whether we finished high school, went direct to the workforce, went into the military, we went to a technical or community college, went on to a four year university, all great options for our young people in terms of your education pathway. I'm sure there's a couple things that you picked up along the way where you're like, This is something that's that's somewhat unique to me, that I have a pull. If that I have the world of education, or the education system here in the United States, that you think that nobody else does, what would that be?

John Hankins: 40:07

What I discovered for me was reading everything. I read history, I read science, I read physics, I read novels, I read newspapers every day. And you get ideas from everywhere. You pick up ideas on advertising. You pick up ideas on marketing, you know, I business strategies and electronics, I read everything, and I I've been doing that since I was in college or even before that. Really, I'm

Matt Kirchner: 40:32

the same way, for what that's worth. I, you know, I do a ton of public speaking keynote, a lot of events and so on. And I actually had an interesting invitation a couple weeks ago. Somebody said, Will you come and speak to our group about how you prepare a great business speech. Hey, first of all, I was flattered that somebody would think that I would know how to do that, but apparently they do. But from there, one of the things that's going to be in that speech is, I'm a big believer. And pick your topic and then let the ideas come to you. Don't go looking for the ideas. In other words, if you try to sit down and write, I do a lot of writing as well. Try and sit down and write the next best business magazine column. That's really hard, if I think of a topic, and then just let the examples and the ideas come to me over the course of a couple weeks, and the column almost writes itself, and I'm hearing kind of the same thing that a lot of the ideas and the innovation and the different ways of looking at things just come from reading a wide variety of different sources. We've got time for one last question for John Hankins, as we're wrapping up our time with him here on The TechEd Podcast. And that is this, John, I want you to travel back in time. I assume when you were 15, you were a Yankees fan at that age as well, but you're a 15 year old young man. You're a sophomore in high school. If you could go back in that, back in time, John, and tell that 15 year old young man one thing, what piece of advice would you offer to him?

John Hankins: 41:44

What I would say is, this is, and I wish I had done this better, which was to keep my friends close. In other words, keep all my contacts together. Because you meet a lot of people throughout life, whether it's in high school, colleges. I mean, I've certainly kept in touch with many of my friends from even grade school. But you know, everybody you've ever been in touch with can somehow help you shape you do all sorts of things and establish connections. That's so huge. Like my partner, Craig, I had just worked with him. He was my magic supplier. But we were, you know, became closer, and then because of who we did, and I did work for him for free. So that's the other thing, is be giving. And then when the time came, I said, Do you want to try something with me? He trusted me. We knew each other. That was it. Otherwise I would not be doing this. I would not be in the position I am. So you never know when a connection is going to be important. And the reason we got into MLB was because of a golf connection. Nice, yeah, who would have guessed right? Right? You don't know. So it's important, but I wish I had done more of that when I was 15 and keeping in touch. And nowadays it's so much easier to do that, you know, send text and stuff back then I had to write on a notepad and send, send a letter, right?

Matt Kirchner: 43:01

Or call someone long distance or whatever, right? I mean, this is, oh, my god, yeah, exactly, absolutely no. That's really good advice. And we've, we've asked that question to hundreds of guests, that's the first time to believe about keeping contacts from early in life and along the journey close and really important. Yeah, I'm like, use some of my best friends now. Are guys that I went to grade school with, in some cases, middle school and so on. But there's a lot of folks you know, for as many as I've stayed in touch with, there's a lot more that I've lost touch with. So So keeping track of that and really being intentional about maintaining those relationships, super, super important. I'm glad we had the opportunity to make contact with each other. John on this particular episode of The TechEd Podcast, obviously, being a baseball fan, being a technology fan, and loving to get to know entrepreneurs. This has been a lot of fun for me. You're doing some really, really cool stuff. I know it's been as great for our audience. So thanks for being with us. Thank you, Matt. Good luck to your brewers this year. Yeah, we're looking forward. It's, you know, this is our year. I think this is the Brewers year. Our manager, God, manager the year last year. So we were proud of that really outperformed over the course of the season. So figures Cross for another successful Brewer season. We'll have another successful up with a TechEd podcast next week. Until then, please check out our show notes. We have the best show notes in the business. You will find those at TechEd podcast.com/hankin sets. TechEd podcast.com/h A, N, K, I, N, S, check us out on social media. We are on x we are on Facebook, we are on Instagram. You'll find us on LinkedIn, wherever you consume your social media, you will find The TechEd Podcast. Come look us up. Leave a comment, let us know you're out there. We would love to hear from you, and looking forward to seeing everybody back next week's episode of The TechEd Podcast. Thanks for being with us. You.