The Rules for Earning College Credit Are Changing, and Competency (Not Time in Seats) Matters Most - Dr. Paul Carlsen, President of Lakeshore College

With technical education under pressure to deliver skilled talent faster, Lakeshore College is flipping the model—measuring learning by competency, meeting students where they are (even in high school), and using grants + national advocacy to scale the impact.

This week, Matt Kirchner talks with Dr. Paul Carlsen, President of Lakeshore College, about the different methods to rapidly upskill a technical workforce. Like Lakeshore's competency-based education (CBE) approach, which has now been adopted by half the college's programs and earned national attention and a White House conversation on scaling CBE.

In addition to CBE, we discuss Rocket Academy’s early manufacturing pathway for high school students, why industry certifications (SACA) matter (because employers say they matter), and how the college has leveraged $32M+ in competitive grants to fund innovation. Carlsen also explains his work on the AACC Board—including the coming impact of Workforce Pell on short-term training.

Listen to learn:

• Why competency-based education is reshaping how we recognize skills
• How high schoolers are earning real college credentials before graduation
• What makes an industry certification valuable—according to employers
• The mindset shift that helped Lakeshore win $32M+ in competitive grants
• How new federal policies could redefine workforce training programs

3 Big Takeaways:

1. Competency-based education measures student success by skill mastery, not seat time. Lakeshore’s shift to CBE began with an employer who couldn’t wait 16 weeks for students to complete a course. Today, students demonstrate mastery through real-world assessments, faculty build flexible learning pathways, and program delivery adapts to the individual needs of working adults, veterans, and learners balancing multiple responsibilities.

2. Through innovative partnerships, high school students are graduating with a college degree and workforce-ready credentials. Rocket Academy gives high school students access to a full integrated manufacturing pathway, often leading to a technical diploma before they even receive their high school diploma. The curriculum is designed to fit directly into the school day, removing scheduling barriers and building true college transcripts—not just college “experience.”

3. Grant funding follows big ideas and execution capacity. Lakeshore has secured over $32 million in competitive grants, including major awards from the National Science Foundation. Success comes from proposing bold, high-impact projects with measurable outcomes, and from having the internal systems and cross-functional teams in place to deliver those outcomes on time and at scale.

Resources in this Episode:

• To learn about Lakeshore College, visit: lakeshore.edu
• Connect with Paul Carlsen on LinkedIn

Other resources:

• Rocket Academy
• What is competency-based education (CBE)?
• American A

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Transcript

Matt Kirchner: 0:00

Matt, welcome into the TechEd podcast. This is Matt Kirkner, your host. We talk all the time on the podcast about how we love our Technical and Community colleges across the United States of America. It's an option that for a long time a lot of students maybe weren't even aware of weren't necessarily considering and as we move into the future of education, giving students options as they move out of secondary education into whatever comes after, whether that's going to the workforce, whether it's going to a university, whether it's going into the military, choosing one of our great technical and community colleges across the United States of America, I believe more and more students are waking up to the fact that they've got options, and for so many of them, the Technical and Community College route is a perfect option. We're going to talk about that and a number of other topics today with an individual who leads an institution I know well. It's Lakeshore college in my home state of Wisconsin. Paul Carlson is the president there doing incredible things, really, really innovative things at that college. And so as we get into this conversation with Paul, let's keep a couple things in mind, first of all, all the great opportunities for our students and others at our community and technical colleges, and also the fact that education is innovating now at warp speed. And what education looked like 10 years ago isn't what education looks like today. And more important, what education is going to look like five and 10 years from now isn't what it looks like today. And so we're in this phase of incredible disruption, incredible innovation, and with me to talk about all of that, is Paul Carlson, president of Lakeshore college. And Paul, thanks so much for coming on.

Paul Carlsen: 1:40

Hey Matt, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk about all the great things of Lakeshore Technical College and the Wisconsin Technical College System with

Matt Kirchner: 1:47

you. Absolutely. And there are many great things, and I've seen them firsthand taking place at Lakeshore college. I want to start by talking a little bit about your background, which is kind of an interesting and I think, an invigorating background into the world of education and technical education, both in terms of geographically, where you were spending time in the types of roles that you were in. So you kind of came of age in the world of workforce development and economic development, even more important in the southeast and states like Louisiana and South Carolina. So talk a little bit about how, as opposed to maybe somebody who came up through a traditional education route, your background in economic development influences the way you think about leading Lakeshore college.

Paul Carlsen: 2:24

Yeah. So right out of grad school, Matt took a job with the South Carolina Department of Commerce, and then about a year and a half later, took a job with Louisiana economic development, their statewide economic development entity. And I really enjoyed economic development work. It's where the public sector and the private sector intersect, and it gave me a front seat viewing of the transformational impact good jobs can have on communities, on people and families. But those good jobs aren't going to come to places unless there are one people to fill those jobs, two people with the skills to fill those jobs, or three people have the capacity to get the skills to fill the job. So really liked working in that sector, connecting families with good paying jobs at places like Boeing, BMW, Sasol IBM, and then I just had this opportunity in working in the Louisiana government to start collaborating with the Louisiana Community and Technical College and technical college system on how we could be working together to bring large economic development projects to areas and provide training for them. And that was my first foray into two year colleges. Then I had the opportunity to make a transition from economic development to that same system, Louisiana Community and Technical College System, and that's where I just fell in love with two year open access community and technical colleges, where people are going to get skills to take jobs that will have transformational impacts for generations in their family.

Matt Kirchner: 3:53

I think back to my days Paul of running manufacturing companies here in the Midwest and doing expansions in other states. And it used to be, the first thing we would look at when we were expanding into a new territory is proximity to customers and proximity to suppliers, right? Super, super important to drive some of that transportation waste out. The second thing we would look at would be things like economic incentives. In other words, who is willing to give us the best tax breaks or the most funding to participate in expansion? The third thing maybe, or maybe even further down the list, was workforce right? And now, when you look at how organizations, manufacturing, companies and others are thinking about expanding into a new geography, really, that workforce piece is the absolute first thing is that what you were finding when you were in states like Louisiana and South Carolina, that over the course of time, became more and more important, yeah, to

Paul Carlsen: 4:41

the point where it was the primary driver of site selection. Because when we were down in the southeast and the Gulf Coast in that area, at the end of the day, most of the incentive packages were relatively equal once you got to that final stage. So they're all on a level playing field. In that sense, when you add everything up. Up, but it was, it's that availability of workers, right? The availability of skilled workers, access to training institutions like Community Technical Colleges, access to universities. So not just the people, but the capacity to upskill those people became a principal driver, especially on major, major projects that were employing hundreds, 1000s of people, giant capital expenditure investments. They need the people to fill them

Matt Kirchner: 5:25

exactly. And so you've got access to workforce, current workers that can fill positions as they're becoming open. And so that's really, really important. What is the skill set in the workforce in the area into which I'm expanding? And then the other question, or the other thought on this, and I'll put it into a baseball analogy, but the Brewers have built an amazing baseball team primarily through their farm system. And then we think about the farm system in a state like Louisiana or South Carolina or Wisconsin. To us, I think about that farm system for labor, that farm system for a skilled workforce, really is, in many ways, our Technical and Community Colleges, right? That's where we're creating the next generation of talent. That's where we're going to build the World Series of economic development in the next five or 10 years by building that incredible talent in the community colleges. And as we mentioned in the intro, I think more and more, not just students, but actually employers as well, are starting to understand the importance of that farm system in the context of a community or technical college. Do you see the same thing where we're not only just looking at was the availability my workforce today, but they're also doing due diligence on what is the ability of the education system in whatever region that is to create that next generation of talent.

Paul Carlsen: 6:32

Oh, absolutely. And when you think of community and technical colleges, the farm system is a really great analogy there, because for Lakeshore College, we have 98% of our students are local, and when they graduate, they stay local, and that statistic is common across the two year college sector. So I really have to think of them as a farm system for employers, for the backbones of communities. But absolutely so, companies that are expanding, companies that are relocating or simply trying to retain where they are. Are looking more deeply at Community Technical Colleges and their capacity to not just deliver skills today, but how can they scale what they're doing to meet the workforce needs of tomorrow and the next decade.

Matt Kirchner: 7:15

And I want to hang for a moment on something you said, about 98% of your students are coming from the region. I guess that doesn't surprise me so much, right? I mean, if you're living in a specific region, you're going to go to a technical college. You probably go into the technical college in the district or the region that you live in, most likely. But 98% of them stay. I mean, that is so they're getting a skill, and it doesn't matter whether that's in healthcare, whether it's in advanced manufacturing, whether it's in public safety, law enforcement, what have you they're staying in their local community. I didn't realize the number was that high. That's fascinating.

Paul Carlsen: 7:45

Yeah, when you think about the typical age of a student at Lakeshore college is 26 years old. There'll be some deviation from that at technical colleges across the state, but that's going to hold generally for most of them. But when you think of a 26 year old coming to a technical college, they often are established in the community. Right graduated high school in the community, perhaps they're working in the community. Many of our students have children, and they're coming to the college to provide a better life for their children and their families and themselves. So they're already established in the community, and we're very fortunate in Northeast Wisconsin to have tons of major employers who will invest in their employees to go and upskill and provide them a career trajectory where they've already started working right out of high school.

Matt Kirchner: 8:30

So many points that you made there that I think are important to note. The first one is we always think, or at least I often think about Technical and Community Colleges as an amazing choice to be making after high school. But it doesn't always necessarily mean right after high school. If the average age is 26 and we both know that moves around a little bit, but it's usually somewhere in the mid 20s, kind of depending upon what's going on in the rest of the economy. So if the average student is a 26 year old student, obviously most of those, if not all those people, are already in the workforce. They're already working. They're upskilling. Maybe they've been affected by some kind of a dislocation in the workforce or in an employer. So they're coming back to school on a full time basis to gain skills to move their career forward. Maybe they're studying, probably likely studying while they have a job as well, and raising a family and doing all these other things. So just a really good example of how important that aspect of our Technical and Community College System is, is the fact that we're reaching not just students coming out of high school and deciding what they want to do for the rest of their life, or at least for the next step in their career, but also individuals that are, in some cases well into their working life and coming back, either on their own or maybe with the support of their employer, to gain skills as we advance into this new economy, which is Changing, as you and I both know, incredibly, incredibly quickly. So I'd be curious, you spent time in the southeast. Did you grow up there? I should ask you

Paul Carlsen: 9:47

that. No, I grew up in Colorado, and I ended up in the southeast. When I went to get my doctorate, went to the University of Georgia. I was on an SF grant, and then just stayed in the region after that, got it.

Matt Kirchner: 9:57

So starting in Colorado, which is another state that I love, what part. Colorado,

Paul Carlsen: 10:00

Colorado Springs. My dad was in the service. Awesome. Retired there in 1993 Oh,

Matt Kirchner: 10:04

beautiful. Yep, interstate 25 shoots, right? I think south from Denver to Colorado Springs. And spend my fair share of time in that area as well. Beautiful, beautiful area as is the southeast, as is in some cases, I would say no more beautiful place than Wisconsin. No, I agree with that. Awesome. So somebody, I've been here my whole life, so my opinion is probably a bit biased, but for someone who spent other time in other places, beautiful, beautiful state, what made you decide a, to come to a state like Wisconsin in the Midwest, and B, to lead a community college, a technical college, in this case, like Lakeshore College,

Paul Carlsen: 10:35

sure, you know, I got to a point with the Louisiana Community Technical College System, where I was working in their system office with a lot of oversight, and that system office, at the time, provided governance for 12 Community Technical colleges across the state. And I like the system work. I like creating structures that were impacting two year colleges statewide. But what I found that I liked more than all that stuff, was interacting with students, and you still have a lot of time to do that. The system office. Students don't enroll the system office. They go to the various colleges. And I got to a point I thought, Man, I think I'm ready to Captain my own ship here. And even though there's 11 102 year colleges across the country, right, they all have openings at once. But I was contacted by a recruiter when an opening came at Lakeshore College. The previous president I had announced his retirement, Mike Lancer, longtime college employee, longtime, very impactful, great college president. And as I started to look at Lakeshore college, it checked a lot of boxes for us. One, it's a small community and technical college, and that allows it to pivot quicker than just a large, behemoth college just and it was workforce focused. So in Louisiana, that is a very workforce focused system. So that was something I wanted to make sure I was investing my time and energy and into an institution that was workforce focused, but it also had local control. So that's something I think that's very important for a Community and Technical College. Community Technical College, that it's locally governed, and that the entire community has skin in the game for that institution success. So I checked a lot of those boxes the region. Checked a ton of boxes in Northeast Wisconsin for my family and I, very safe communities. Public schools are really fantastic. In Northeast Wisconsin, for sure, you have four seasons and a great quality of life. So in Louisiana, if we were still there, our girls will be taking busses to school. Would take them about 3045, minutes to get there. Right now, we live in the village of Kohler. We live a block from the school. Our girls walk to and from there's bikes on everybody's yard. Super safe. Great community for a family. Absolutely

Matt Kirchner: 12:43

wonderful, wonderful community. And I think he did a nice job of comparing and contrasting. Paul, the difference between the quality of life in Northeast Wisconsin and your college, by the way, for our listeners, is probably what an hour north of Milwaukee, maybe, give or

Paul Carlsen: 12:56

take. Yeah, Cleveland, Wisconsin, great village, or just right on the county line between Sheboygan, Mantua counties, Yep,

Matt Kirchner: 13:01

exactly. So very much on the eastern end of the state, right over by Lake Michigan, a little little bit north of Milwaukee. Beautiful, beautiful area. So you talked about the experiences your family's having and your kids are having in terms of proximity to school and so on. Difference how it would have been in Louisiana. Other differences you would see, particularly technical community colleges between the southeast are there maybe more similarities than differences. But what are some of the differences that you would know some

Paul Carlsen: 13:27

similarities, I think, at all two year college nationwide is a fundamental commitment to the open access mission of teaching the student who walks through your doors. We don't make students go through an application process. We don't turn anybody away. So at every college, every two year college, from faculty to staff to presidents, they're all really focused on that mission, which is phenomenal. I think something that's really unique in Wisconsin is our laser alignment with our local employers, sure, and every program, every degree The college offers has an industry advisory board made up of people who are employed in the fields that will hire those graduates. And those advisory boards can go from 10 people to 20 people, and they're giving feedback and telling our college what skills need to be taught, what equipment needs to be used so that our graduates are set up for maximum success in the workforce when they graduate. You have advisory committees throughout the sector, in some states and not others, but in Wisconsin, and I say this in a good way, it's like advisory committees on steroids that create a real stickiness for the college and our employers, and that's true of all the Wisconsin Technical College System schools. I think that really sets our system apart from the rest of the country, you know.

Matt Kirchner: 14:52

And I think you make an important point in the distinction between a non centralized model and a centralized model for Technical and Community Colleges. And. Not that one is necessarily good or bad or better or worse, because there's advantages to both. But you think about a state like Indiana, Ivy Tech, which is their statewide Technical Community College System. In a lot of ways, the entire system moves in unison certain benefits to that, certainly in terms of getting things done, implementation, standardization and so on. As opposed to a state like Wisconsin, 16 technical colleges across the state of Wisconsin, every one of them with their own board, and there is a state system, but almost all the decisions are made at the local level. A lot of the funding comes from the local level. And then to your point, the connection you have to your individual employers, and the ability to pivot the college in whatever direction your employers are thinking you need to go that. I mean, there is a difference. And I spend time with both models, and we see both of them across the Midwest and across the United States, but that is an important distinction for

Paul Carlsen: 15:48

Wisconsin. Yeah, very well said. And to go back to the Kohler company, I think a great example of that is a little over 10 years ago, the core company came to the college. Then President Lancer was running the college, and said, hey, you need to expand and modernize your advanced manufacturing footprint, right? And because we are decentralized, and Kohler is a major employer, we're able to say, Yeah, let's do that. So Kohler helped guide that project that was ultimately the Kohler center for manufacturing excellence. But we also had other major employers as part of that, we had Sargento, Johnsonville, Haydn, and so we have that nimbleness, that when an employer says, Hey, we really need you to change course. Here, we can do that right, and we don't have to wait for an entire state apparatus to get on board for it to happen.

Matt Kirchner: 16:35

So that flexibility really, really important in terms of working with employers, in terms of serving whatever stakeholders we have, outside of our students, which are really, really important, probably the most important aspect of a community college, but being able to pivot and change and cater to specific groups of employers to make sure that we're creating that workforce that they're looking for, that's a key aspect, another key aspect of flexibility in education, I believe, is making sure that we're tying competencies to what those employers are looking for, right? And you think about a typical associate degree program, four semesters, a whole series of courses, all broken down into credits, can be further broken down into competencies. And you know where I'm going with this, you're a huge advocate for competency based education and a leader in that regard. Tell our audience a little bit about CBE, why it's important, and how the college is flexing its model around competencies.

Paul Carlsen: 17:27

Yeah, so competency based education, or CBE transitions learning from time based to competency based. And so you gave a great example of under a time based model, an associate degree takes two years, and you have your classes aligned sequentially, and you have to spend your two years getting that degree right, regardless of what you already know coming into it. You still have to wait your time to get that degree, regardless of how quickly you can learn you still have to wait the two years. Or if you need a little bit more time, you can not really get it, but as long as you keep a C, you can continue to graduate in that two year time. And when I think about a C, right? A C grade, many of us wouldn't buy a house if it was inspected and the grades were A, B, C, D and F, and you had a C, we'd probably want that right? So we said, well, let's turn this model upside down into a competency based model. So under competency based education, we've taken an associate degree working with our employers, and just found every competency that is part of that degree. And when a student comes in, they can come in eight times throughout the year, and they can demonstrate competencies at the speed that makes sense for them, as fast as they want to or as slow as they want to. Although we want them to go fast, because people want degrees to better their lives, we want them to graduate sooner rather than later, right? They do too. But what's great about the competency based model, in addition to the student flexibility is you either know the competency or you don't right, and you get multiple attempts to demonstrate your skill level, and you don't move on to the next competency until you're met the previous competencies. So what we found is these competency based programs that we've rolled out. In fact, now more than 50% of our degrees are competency based education. We're seeing more and more incumbent workers coming to the college to say, Hey, I took a couple of classes in CNC machining three or four years ago, and I got a job after the first semester, and because of the previous time based model, I had to choose between working and paying the bills or coming to school between eight and five when I was working, I just can't do that. But with the competency based model, they say, Hey, now I have the flexibility to have my job and then learn outside of that job at a pace that makes sense for me, which has been really fantastic. And so like I said. Over half of our programs are competency based education, and I will brag a little bit here, we are a leader on this front. Well, you went to the White House to talk. I did, yeah, and we talked there about how we scaled it right, and we rapidly scaled it post COVID One, because our Board of Trustees encouraged us to go in that direction. And once we had success, our first program was CNC machining, where we had an awesome group of faculty said, we want to try CBE. They hit a home run. And then, you know how that is, you have success happening in one part. And people say, hey, well, what's happening over there? I think I'd like to be part of that success. And it snowballed. And so we take a lot of pride in being a CBE institution. Requires a ton of work from everybody at the college. You change systems, you change how you process federal financial aid, how you advise students, you change how you teach students. But you know, I applaud everyone at the college for all their great work and making it possible, because we believe it ultimately produces a better education for the students, especially on the skills trade side, because again, they are graduating having met all those competencies they're not meeting at sea level. Meet them or they don't. And so we're producing more quality graduates, from a workforce perspective, who are able to hit the ground running, wherever they end up working well.

Matt Kirchner: 21:13

And as somebody who spent all those years, as I did, running manufacturing companies here in state of Wisconsin and around the Midwest, I kind of think about the analogy you use about do you want the CU house or do you want the a house? If you're hiring a student, a graduate, do you want the C student, or do you want the a student? The answer is, I'm less concerned about what grade they got and more concerned about, do they know how to do what I'm hiring them to do. And so this whole competency based model says we're going to make sure that you have that competency. And, oh, by the way, if you're a high flyer and you can zip through this stuff and you already got it, or you learned it in another job, or whatever, we're not going to make you sit through that again. If you're a student that, and we all have our areas in which we take a little bit more time, I certainly do. If you're a student that needs a little bit more time, or maybe it takes a couple swings in order to hit the ball, no worries, you're going to take your time. You're gonna go through that at your pace. And what's important isn't how quickly you got through it. What's important isn't necessarily that letter that goes after your name or your grade or that course. What's important is, do you know it, or do you not

Paul Carlsen: 22:11

know it? Yeah. And to add to everything you just said there, Matt, it also creates an instructional model where it is tailored to each individual person, not to a classroom. Great point. And I think about my time in college, there were some things that I need a little more time on I just didn't

Unknown: 22:29

get. But it didn't matter. We realized accounting was one of mine, by the way,

Paul Carlsen: 22:33

anything math related, hey, so. But we all moved on at the same time. But now with CBE again, everyone's moving at their own pace, and our faculty have really rethought and repurposed how they're teaching, approaching students and having more impactful student interaction, student teaching moments than they were previously, because again, you're customizing for that individual student. And one other thing I want to add about a CBE is even though we deconstructed the degrees and the competencies, students still graduate with a associate degree, right? And they still have a transcript with grades on it. That's a lot of back office kind of crosswalks that happen there. But it's still a college degree, fully accredited, fully financial aid eligible, fully transferable,

Matt Kirchner: 23:14

so it checks both boxes. We're not blowing up the model. It's still a traditional associates degree. However, we're also basing it on competencies, so you get the best of both worlds. You know, we joke sometimes Paul in education that change comes to education one retirement at a time, or I've even heard it put one death at a time. That's a little bit morbid. You talked about like your CNC faculty that said, we want to lead on this. I'm asking a loaded question, because in any organization, we know that there are people that might be a little bit slower to change. Talk about that change management. Did everybody jump on board? Or how do you work through some of those changes over time? Well,

Paul Carlsen: 23:45

it was not overnight, right? And like is your loaded question, there people hopped on board with varying degrees of energy and excitement. Sure. So CNC was where we started, because people were jobbing out. That was a program where you had good enrollments, low retention, low graduation rates. And we're thinking, how can you maintain a program like this, where folks are leaving after the first semester

Matt Kirchner: 24:11

and jobbing out is as you speak slang, of course, for those that may not know that word, it's you're halfway through or partway through a degree program, and your skills that you've gained are so valuable to the marketplace that an employer comes in and swoops you up and employs you before you

Paul Carlsen: 24:24

complete your degree, and that's a win for the student who was coming to get a better life for them and their families. But we had created that structure that allowed once somebody jobed out, that prevented them from coming back, because, again, we weren't altering anything, right, right in terms of hours and all that. So they dived into that program really led us on that front to be our first program to shift to CNC machining success brought in another group of folks, because jobbing out is something that's relevant to all of our manufacturing programs. And so education has evolved. A ton over the centuries it's been around. We were simply at a point in our environment in Northeast Wisconsin, where unemployment continues to be record low, our advanced manufacturing companies in Mantua and Sheboygan counties need more and more people, right that we're looking at, you know, the long term viability of an institution that continues to do what did what it always did, that came into question. So how are we going to evolve to make sure we're relevant today and tomorrow? You know, it takes time to change structures, and we were no different at Lakeshore college, but it helped immensely that the board of trustees, our nine member board of trustees, were entirely bought in, right? Huge difference. It does. And so there was about a three year period, maybe two to three years, where we had a standing update on our board agenda, that was competency based education update, where we're coming and talking about, hey, here's the programs, here's the pain points. We're making progress on this goal. You said there was very ambitious goal in 2020 said by 2025, transition, everything you can to competency based education, unless there's safety concerns or accreditation concerns. Got it is a lofty goal. I think we understood we probably wouldn't get there, but we were striving for that, having that at the top, and that commitment that this isn't a fad, this isn't something that in a year when a new software comes out, we're going to change right? We're in it for the long run. And so that was extremely helpful in the change management

Matt Kirchner: 26:27

front. And a lot of institutions have followed your lead. And I know you get a lot of folks that are asking you about all the things we just talked about, the change management, the model, the leadership, the employer relationships, all those kinds of things. But it's just a great example of how we can innovate higher education, you know, and under your leadership, the institution has done just an incredible, incredible job of that. You've also done some really unique things in the world of Secondary Education, high schools and so on. And that's a world that's innovating as well, and maybe in ways that people don't recognize. I had the opportunity late last year to be at the grand opening of facility, an operation called Rocket academy that is meeting high school students, where they are in a really, really innovative way. And I know you and your team have had a huge relationship and been a huge part of the leadership of that organization. One of my good friends, Mike Dietrich, actually chairs the board of directors there. I'm happy to mention that, and Mike's doing an incredible job along with the leadership team of that organization. But talk to us about rocket Academy and what it is and how it's different.

Paul Carlsen: 27:21

Yeah, appreciate you bringing this up. So rocket Academy came about from the vision of the previous superintendent, Chad for the Cedar Road Belgium School District. Chad a great guy, someone I was proud to call a friend, where he approached the college said, Hey, what would it look like if we created not an alternative school, but a school where our high school students who are interested in the manufacturing pathways can come to that school to not learn basic high school tech ed, but Integrated Manufacturing education with college credits attached to it, so that those students at rocket Academy could either start a pathway to Lakeshore college upon graduation, or complete the pathway within the school so that they could be employed by our manufacturing partners right out of high school. And we worked with cereal Belgium school district to help develop that we were very fortunate that the college is able to secure a grant from the National Science Foundation to help offset some of the upstart costs related getting qualified faculty. But it has been a home run for the community and county wide. And when I hear people talk about rocket Academy, and the pride they have in it, and the pride when you I see parents who talk about it is really, really special. And a couple of graduations ago, we had our first batch of rocket Academy students who were crossing the Lakeshore college graduation stage to get their college degree before they had finished high school. It's amazing. It's really cool. And they're proud. Their families are proud. The community's proud. And so it's just a really interesting way of thinking of Let's Move away from high school dual enrollments, where colleges are teaching college classes in high school, correct. Let's maybe move away from this model of just offering a collection of classes. Or let's maybe think we'd be spending our time and resources to target those students who are going to take English, 101, or microeconomics, right, who are on that trajectory already to a Madison to a Green Bay or Oshkosh based on their family demographics, they're gonna be okay. But what if we started targeting people who maybe aren't higher ed bound or maybe don't like learning in a classroom setting, being lecture if I want to start using their hands, and how can we create pathways for those students to find meaningful employment or meaningful education post graduation? Because, you know, we believe firmly at Lakeshore college and raising the educational attainment in our communities, that's just by nature of working. In higher education, of course, and so let's reach those students who, maybe because of family circumstances or whatever, aren't thinking about college. How can we reach them in the high school to get them on a college pathway? Because we know students who take dual enrollment classes in high school are one more likely to enroll in college post graduation, and they're more likely to graduate from higher education on time than their peers. So it's a real win. Win. You know, create a lot of stackable pathways so that folks can come on and off at multiple times. But we are very proud of the work we do with rocket Academy, and we provide dual enrollment opportunities for every high school in our Colleges District, both public and private. Well,

Matt Kirchner: 30:41

and I think that word proud is an important word. And as I mentioned, I've had an opportunity to spend time at rocket Academy, to spend time around the students. And for folks that haven't had that experience, these kids would absolutely amaze you with what they know, with what they're able to do, with how professional they are, all the job skills that they have, how they stand up, they greet you at the door. They shake your hand. They're confident. You know, I've been to my share of high school graduations from traditional high schools, and I've been to my share now of graduation ceremonies from institutions like rocket Academy. And I will tell you that the students that are walking across the stage from an institution like rocket Academy have every bit the pride is of a valedictorian of a traditional high school. I mean, they're proud, they're excited, and it's an and not an or it's, we're not saying, Do I do higher education, or do I graduate from high school and go into the workforce? Look, you've got all these on ramps and off ramps. You can earn your associate's degree while you're going to high school, walking across the second stage before you do the first one. I mean, it's just a really, really, really cool model. And all the way, by the way, earning industry relevant certifications as well, which, when we talk about competency based education, we talk about different high school models, we talk about how we're innovating in higher ed. I know that's been a really, really important aspect for you, and I know the institution, Lakeshore College, well enough to know that you're doing a lot of different credentials and certifications and micro certifications. I want to focus on one, because I've been intimately involved with it. I involved with it. I've gotten to know over the course of the last couple of years, one of your deans, Rachel krupline, who's just a great leader, a great innovator, and has done some great work with the smart automation certification Alliance. Full disclosure, as our audience already knows, I'm on the national board. I'm a huge advocate for that model, just because I think they get it right when it comes to how we set up a certification body, but talk about that. You're a strong advocate as well. Why are industry recognized certifications like those from the smart automation certification Alliance so important and such an integral part of what you're doing?

Paul Carlsen: 32:31

Great way to tee up that question. I don't wanna come off as too cute here, but they're important because our industry partners are telling us they're important. Awesome. And so when your local employers are saying, Hey, this is important for us that our employees have or have access to at Technical College, your antenna goes up and says, Cool. Let's get that role in there, right? So we really leaned in, under Rachel's leadership to the saca certifications as part of a grant we received from Governor Evers of the Wisconsin Innovation Grant, and we were very interested in advanced manufacturing and automation, and how in a rural college like ours, where we're not on a bus line, how can we take that education in a very compressed, compartmentalized environment, out to communities, out to other rural high schools, community based organizations or employers to provide them the industry certifications that they need to find meaningful employment or move up in meaningful employment period. And so, you know, they're important because we're told they're important by our employers period,

Matt Kirchner: 33:39

which is awesome, and it's music to my ears to hear that, because for so long, and as somebody who spent time in industry, a lot of time in industry, I wasn't familiar with micro credentials in those days, and I just think in the last 10 years, in fact, I know we've started to recognize that employers who you know, they may say, Well, give me a warm body. Give me somebody that'll come to work today and every day and stay off of drugs and take some direction. That's who I want. And it's like, okay, you could have that. But what if you can have this whole list of competencies that people would come to work job ready? How would that feel? Oh, that's awesome. And then they, you know, again, not to pick on soccer, but I'm intimately familiar. You sit down and you say, well, this person has a certification in basic AC, DC or electric relay control, or industry 4.0 or robotics or whatever. Is that important? The employers are saying it's important, and you're able to in the same way with CBE that we're able to focus specific competencies on specific roles, we can create a competency portfolio of certifications that match certain roles once students are in industry as well. None of this happens. None of this innovation happens without funding. I think if there's a common theme through several of your answers, Paul, talking about NSF grant funding for rocket Academy, talking about innovation grant funding from our governor here in Wisconsin, the governor's office, Governor Tony Evers, which I believe was flow through money too, from the federal government. But grant funding that's come up a few times. You've managed to gain $28 million in grant funding since, since joining the college. I mean, that's just an insane amount of money. And. Love. People would love to hear your secret recipe here for securing grant

Paul Carlsen: 35:03

funding. Well, just when a correction there, it's now 32 million. Oh,

Matt Kirchner: 35:07

fair enough. Awesome. Our research is three days old, so

Paul Carlsen: 35:11

thank you for correcting us. So you know, we have prioritized, as an institution, grant funding, because we want to diversify our funding streams at the college and as a community college, we want to be bringing in dollars to our community that are spent in our community to better students in our communities. We're able to do that because when we prioritize, it two phenomenal grants team, so we invest in a Grants team that finds grants, write successful grants, and a team, my grants team, I would probably put that up against any grants team in higher ed period, both two year and four year colleges. They're very good. They care about the college, they care about the mission, and they write great grants. But you know the second is, is we have at Lakeshore College, I'm biased. We have a quality product, sure. So when we're writing for grants, we're starting on third base, because we have a quality foundation to build on, sure, and so that's, you know, we're very proud of all of our grants, state level, federal level, and it's reflection of our hard work and our quality product. And I've

Matt Kirchner: 36:15

got a really good friend who spends a lot of time thinking about grant funding, who says, you know, somebody, somebody somebody says, Well, I want a million dollars in grant funding. And they say, well, then you have to have a million dollar idea. And it's kind of the same idea if you've got a million dollar result, if you've got a million dollar idea, if you've already got a track record of spending grant funding, efficiently, spending it conscientiously, and also, to your point, having this incredible legacy of a great college, having produced graduates year in and year out, and doing workforce training and reaching out to your high schools and all the great things that you're doing that makes the story pretty easy to tell. And

Paul Carlsen: 36:47

I would add your point as well. Take about if you want a million dollars. Have a million dollar idea, that we have the capacity at Lakeshore College, institution wide, to think about the future, and so we're not just applying for grants just to get money because we need this right now or this. We're able to visualize where we want to be going in two or three years. We visualize with partners like the Seagrove Belgium School District, sure, partners like Sargento. Did you know? Just think where we want to go in the future. And that thinking is really institution wide, which makes the job of finding, writing grants. I don't want to say easier, but it's a little bit easier. That way. It's still a very hard job, but a little bit easier. Yeah,

Matt Kirchner: 37:29

absolutely. Well, and it's all about winning the grant, right? So what writing the grant and winning the grant and having great partners. And the other partnership I want to give a shout out to is your incredible partnership with the American Association of Community Colleges, and I know you've been super active with that organization, lots of stuff going on. I think I just saw a LinkedIn post about a, you know, a CEO search that you've been involved in. Talk about the AACC, your role there, and why not just being involved locally, but also being involved on a national scale, is important

Paul Carlsen: 37:57

to you? Paul, sure, so the American Association of Community Colleges, or AACC, is the national advocacy unit for the nation's 11 102 year community and technical colleges. Got it. I was honored to have been elected by my peers to that board a little over a year ago. And the reason it's important is, you know, even though we're a local Community Technical College. We're part of the broader sector, and I'm a big believer that if you want to be involved in the sector, you have to be involved in the sector. And so the service on this board allows us to be involved the dialog on the national level. It allows us to bring the unique perspective of of a technical college in the Midwest to policy discussions that are happening and that's important. It gives our college, it gives our state and our community a disproportionate role in the nationwide discussions. And you know, when you think of the American Association of Community Colleges, why it's important for advocacy a lot of that's happening in Washington, DC, to secure opportunities for two year colleges to grow now I can pinpoint really clearly why that matters with a provision in the big, beautiful bill that allows for workforce Pell. So Pell Grants are entitlement based grants to help low income individuals pay for college. It used to only be available if you were taking a college degree. Right now with workforce Pell, there's going to be opportunities for students to draw down their Pell for short term training opportunities like CDL, like nursing assistant, like saca, all of this. And so I think we're going to see an explosion here of short term training that is meaningful for people and communities. And that's a direct result of the work the American Association of Community Colleges is doing to advocate on behalf of all colleges.

Matt Kirchner: 39:53

And that's just a terrific example. And we could debate, and lots of people could debate, the merits of the big, beautiful bill, and I've heard a lot of it already. Yeah, the truth of the matter is that, regardless of how people feel about that, there are some great nuggets in there, especially for workforce training, community colleges, technical colleges and so on. And I'm glad that you highlighted that, you know, I guess I would be interested in in learning a little bit more about, just in general, what kind of leadership you think the community college world needs, and especially, you know, let's, let's kind of talk about that in the context a little bit of funding and what's happening. And what's happening, what has happened with funding? I mean, I live and breathe technical community colleges and technical training and funding has been pretty good for the last five years for a variety of reasons. You know, would be curious about not just how we lead on the national level and what's important for community and technical colleges, but also how we lead on funding and what you're expecting the next

Paul Carlsen: 40:41

five years. So it's important that when we think about funding for Community Technical College systems, that those of us in the sector recognize the reason we're, especially in Wisconsin, doing good funding wise right, is because we are quality institutions. We are committed to our mission, and we are supporting our employers, right? And so it is absolutely critical as we go to the next five years that we continue to maintain that brand standard, right, and not slip on that. So that's a big thing when you think of leadership, you know, we've got great leadership here in the state AACC, you know, we're hiring a new CEO there to be our chief advocate in Washington, DC. I think what's important there is leaders who understand the role, scope and mission of two year colleges, who are the walking, talking logos of two year colleges, and are always in the room when those conversations are being had with policy makers, right, and not defaulting to other associations with other interests, which aren't bad interests, but they're just other interests, right? Making sure that our interests are equally weighed at that

Matt Kirchner: 41:50

table a fully educated policy maker, regardless of what level of government, regardless of what types of decisions they're making are, is really, really important. And I know the AACC is playing a really, really important role in making sure that, you know, not just our colleges are informed and educated on the future of education, but but also that our public policy makers are is super, super important. And I'm glad you mentioned the great leadership here in the state of Wisconsin as well. I had a opportunity to meet with President Layla Merryfield probably a week and a half ago. You're fantastic. Yeah. Spend a good hour and a half, two hours with Layla, wonderful, wonderful leader, doing great things at the state level. And believes, as I do, that we do need to shake up the model and continue to innovate in ways that are good for students, good for employers, and good for the state as a whole. And and I think, set an example in a lot of cases for what the rest of the country can be doing. Not that there aren't great things happening all over the United States, but fantastic things happening in Wisconsin, and as much as we were talking about shaking up the model of education, I have a couple more questions for you, Paul before we wrap up our time here on The TechEd podcast. First one is this, we all had our own education pathway. You had yours, and certainly have spent tremendous amounts of time in education following your formal education yourself. Are the things that you believe or think about in terms of education that might surprise people or a little bit outside of the lines, if you would.

Paul Carlsen: 43:06

What I've experienced across multiple states is people know their local community and technical college but and many of them are graduates from it, but they don't always know the full, I guess, depth and breadth of what two year colleges do. If I could just give you a quick story here might be always, I think there's a great job of demonstrating this. So Jonathan grew up in our community, and in high school. Jonathan dropped out of high school, smart guy, right? Just wasn't working for him. Then wanted to work, make some money. So he went to work, and what he started to notice after a couple years of dropping out was his peers at his job were getting promotions, or they were getting new jobs, or they were changing careers. And what he realized is the common theme of all those folks moving up was they had a high school degree. Many of them had a college degree. So he said, You know what, I'm gonna go back to get my high school equivalency degree, or my GED and Lakeshore provides that in our community. And so he started and stopped, because it's hard you've been at school for a while to get back in that swing. It can be intimidating. Started and stopped, but then he finally doubled down. Said, You know what? Now I'm going to get my degree. And he was taking his classes, made some bad life choices, found himself in jail. But while he was in jail, he continued in our GED program that we offer in the jail. Yeah, he got his GED, and when he was released, one of the first things he did was come to Lakeshore college to enroll in one of our programs. Graduated from the program in a year, now owns and operates a small business in Manitowoc County. Wow. And you think about that, only at a college like Lakeshore, you know, our colleges are uniquely American inventions. Can you go from a high school dropout who is in jail to a college graduate business owner? Right? That happens? Lakeshore all the time, not that specific story, but, and that's just something that you know, the more we can tell the story of our depth and breadth to continue to surprise people, so that hopefully one day when we tell the story, they're not surprised. I think that's would be a great thing. You

Matt Kirchner: 45:13

know, in the end, the most important thing that any of us do is change the lives of others for the better. And what a great example of how we can do that through our community and technical colleges across the country, and specifically Lakeshore, with with all the flexibility that you offer, and letting somebody know that it's never too late to make up for some decision you may have made that you wish you hadn't, and you can always find a better way. And in the case of Jonathan, what a perfect example, Paul. And thank you so much for sharing that example with us. It's just a it's just a great story about the power of our community colleges and technical colleges here in the state of Wisconsin and across the country as well. Speaking of across the country, you grew up in various parts of the country you mentioned earlier, Colorado Springs. So I want to take us back in time a little bit to the 15 year old Paul Carlson. You've got your whole life ahead of you. You don't know that you're going to be heading off to Georgia for your doctorate and what you did before that, and then eventually becoming the leader of this great institution here in the state of Wisconsin. You're 15. You have your whole life ahead of you. If you could go back and give that young man one piece of advice.

Paul Carlsen: 46:13

What is it? Okay, so wasn't it the most clearest thinker at 15? Right? I did a lot of things a 15 year old does that maybe we're counterproductive. But

Matt Kirchner: 46:22

you're not alone on that. By the way, we can make a list together. Go ahead, but at

Paul Carlsen: 46:26

15, I'm starting to think about college, right? Both my parents graduated from college, so it was never a question in our household of if you would go, but where? And I'm thinking of just getting out of there, you know, going to college, getting job, getting out of the household, doing my own thing. And if I could go back to that 15 year old, I would say, continue on that trajectory, going places, doing things. But man, once you leave home, go home more often. There you go. Because you know, when you're 15, you know your parents won't live forever, right, but you kind of think they will, and then it catches up with you really quickly. And so give myself that advice to go home a lot more often than I did, because that would have been time well spent.

Matt Kirchner: 47:04

Absolutely. That's great advice for anybody. And we get a lot of answers to this question. That's the first time we've gotten that one, and that is a beautiful, beautiful answer. And we always, you know, we think about our roots, we think about where we come from, we think about the impact that our parents have, and we think about things that we take for granted. And that's one that's really, easy to take for granted. So for all of our young listeners, as you move into whatever happens after you move out of the house, remember to go back home and see Mom and Dad. You won't have them forever, and cherish that time while you do awesome awesome advice. A tremendous conversation we've had here with our guest, Paul Carlson, president of Lakeshore College here in Wisconsin, great conversations about everything from competency based education to how we seek your grant funding to how we innovate in higher ed to how we innovate in our secondary institutions. Really, really interesting conversation, Paul, and thanks so much for being with us. Thanks for having me, and thanks to our audience as well for joining us for this episode of The TechEd podcast, lots of different resources we talked about over the course of this conversation. We'll link them all up, as we do every week in the show notes. We have the best show notes in the business, so be sure to check those out. They will be at TechEd podcast.com/carlson that is TechEd podcast.com/and catch the spelling here. Slash, C, A, R, L, S, E, N. TechEd podcast.com/carlson, when you're done there, come find us on social media. We are on LinkedIn. We are on Tiktok. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on Facebook, wherever you spend time, whatever channel is your favorite for social media, you will find the TechEd podcast there. When you stop in, say hello, we would love to hear from you. Can't wait to see you next week for another great episode of The TechEd Podcast. I'm Matt Kirkner, and thank you for being with us. You.