The TechEd Podcast
Bridging the gap between technical education & the workforce 🎙 Hosted by Matt Kirchner, each episode features conversations with leaders who are shaping, innovating and disrupting the future of the skilled workforce and how we inspire and train individuals toward those jobs.
STEM, Career and Technical Education, and Engineering educators - this podcast is for you!
Manufacturing and industrial employers - this podcast is for you, too!
The TechEd Podcast
Technical Colleges: Breaking Generational Poverty and Building Economic Mobility - Dr. Anthony Cruz, President of MATC
With technical colleges serving as the front line for breaking generational poverty, one question rises to the surface: how do we design education that truly creates economic mobility?
In this episode of The TechEd Podcast, host Matt Kirchner digs into that question with Dr. Anthony Cruz, President of Milwaukee Area Technical College — the largest nonprofit technical college in the country and one of the most diverse institutions in the Midwest.
Dr. Cruz brings a compelling mix of lived experience and visionary leadership: a first-generation college graduate whose parents worked in factories, now leading a college that serves 31,000 students a year and sits at the epicenter of Milwaukee’s economic and social challenges. From meeting students where they are to engineering economic mobility, Dr. Cruz lays out the blueprint for how technical colleges can change the trajectory of entire families.
From breaking cycles of generational poverty to preparing students for an AI-driven workforce, this conversation explores what’s required from technical colleges today, and why their role has never been more vital.
Listen to learn:
- How technical colleges serve as engines of economic mobility
- Why student support must go far beyond academics
- How to nurture grit in students who have never seen success modeled around them
- What AI disruption means for technical college programs
- Why urban technical colleges face unique challenges — and unique opportunities
Big Takeaways
1. Technical colleges are uniquely positioned to break generational poverty.
MATC sees itself as an “engine of economic mobility,” serving students who often arrive without the financial resources or social capital others take for granted.
Layered support — scholarships, retention coaches, food pantries, advising — helps remove barriers so students can persist and earn family-sustaining wages.
2. Student success requires developing grit, not just academic skill.
Cruz emphasizes that grit is innate but must be nurtured. Many students have never seen examples of success around them, so MATC focuses on helping them build resilience semester after semester until they launch into the workforce.
3. The future of technical education demands agility — especially with AI.
AI is reshaping jobs faster than curriculum cycles. MATC is equipping faculty to use AI tools now, while building flexible programs that can adapt quickly to emerging technologies rather than waiting years for revisions.
Resources
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This is the TechEd podcast, where we feature leaders who are shaping, innovating and disrupting technical education and the workforce. These are the stories of organizations leading the charge to change education, to rethink the workforce and to embrace emerging technology. You'll find us here every Tuesday on our mission to secure the American Dream for the next generation of STEM and workforce talent. And now here's your host, Matt Kirchner,
Matt Kirchner:welcome into this week's episode of The TechEd podcast, as I do so many times here on the podcast, I want to begin with a really short story. And this goes back a long time. I was in my late teens. I spent the first six years of my working life, at least in the summertime, as a lifeguard in Milwaukee County, and part of what we had to do as a lifeguard and for our training was, believe it or not, 40 hours every two years of first aid training, and it took place at Milwaukee Area Technical College. So that was my introduction to our guests institution, the one that he leads. We'll get into his intro in just a moment, but I had such an eye opening experience as you're walking back, and the course that we took was in the way back of the campus. And so you would go through all these different programs, CNC programs, public safety programs, nursing programs and so on, all the way back to our our first aid program, and it was really my first eye opening experience when I was probably 1718, years old or so of the incredible value that our Technical and Community Colleges here in the United States, and specific to my home state of Wisconsin, our technical colleges add to our economy and add to our way of life. There's so many things that we take for granted that we would never realize have their roots in our technical colleges. So I'm a huge fan of the amazing work that happens in and around Technical and Community Colleges all over the United States of America. It's a real honor, and I mean that genuinely, to welcome to the studio the TechEd podcast, the president of that institution, Dr Anthony Cruz, president of MATC, Milwaukee Area Technical College. Dr Cruz, what a pleasure and an honor to have you here. Thanks for coming in.
Anthony Cruz:Oh, thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be here with you today. Really appreciate the opportunity.
Matt Kirchner:Yeah, absolutely, an incredible background. By the way. You're a first generation college student. I understand college graduate parents came from to the United States, from Cuba, which is going to be fascinating in and of itself, and worked in factories which I love, that somebody that you know was in, you know, manufacturing for 2530 years that is, in so many ways, the fabric and the life blood of our economy here in the United States. So I would love to hear you reflect a little bit on how that background, parents, who are immigrants, worked in and around manufacturing. How does all that background and that family dynamic lead you to a technical college today and influence the work you're
Anthony Cruz:doing definitely influences everything I do in my life, right? My parents are a big part of who I am today. Came to this country in the early 60s from Cuba and didn't know well. My My mother came in 61 and my dad came right after the Cuban Missile Crisis. So they came separately. They weren't they didn't know each other, so they actually met in Chicago. So one before right, one right after the missile crisis, they both moved to Miami, and then ultimately, right, like, maybe within six months, moved to Chicago separately, two families, and then they met in Chicago, got married after three months of knowing each other. Yeah, exactly, yeah, sure, yeah. So I think, for me, means a lot. I mean, their story is, as immigrants coming to this country with nothing and knowing the language, there's a lot of humility and a lot of hard work that went into what they've done in their lives. They're still, they're still very well living in Florida, and that really impacted me in the sense of even my leadership, you know, in the way that I lead with, hopefully, I lead with humility and try to do a very hard work, you know, to get things done. And in higher ed a lot of times, you know, we think about the ivory tower, right? And people like up on this place where nobody knows what they're thinking and maybe they're out of touch with what's happening. And I really believe that in order to be effective higher education leaders and to be the things that we do for our community, we really need to meet people where they are. And I think that's what technical colleges do. That's one thing that I try to focus on, whether it be working directly with our faculty and staff, meeting our students, trying to understand where they're coming from, what their needs are. And a lot of that comes from the importance that my parents put on education. You know, for me, one of the things they invested in me was the education that I have today. A lot of I went to private Catholic school for most of my early years, and for them, that was very important. And so that investment in me today, I hope that I can share. That investment with others. We have a lot of first generation college students at the college. We have a lot of students that are trying to make the best out of their lives and try to help, you know, change a cycle of poverty that is a part of them. And hopefully we can provide the education through apprenticeships, internships, and then eventually jobs in industry that will give them the opportunity that my parents got through working in factories and making a living wage and being able to buy their first home and right and be able to send me to private school. You know, they were never wealthy, or I wouldn't even say they were just middle class, working, middle class individuals that were able to take the the opportunities that were given to them and then make something of it. And then give me those opportunities to then have be have, you know, have the opportunity to be here with you right this podcast today and talk about what's happening in higher education in Milwaukee,
Matt Kirchner:absolutely. And then really living out the American dream as your as your parents did, as you're doing. So you said they worked in manufacturing. Tell me a little bit more more about that. Do you remember what kind, or know what kind of, what kind of, what kind of manufacturing they were
Anthony Cruz:involved with. My dad worked at a plant that manufactured a post electrical transformer, Transformers. Yeah, working transformers, right? So the manufacturer of transformers in Chicago,
Matt Kirchner:awesome. It wasn't SNC electric. It was, I know my manufacturers, they're still around. They are indeed, yep,
Anthony Cruz:back then, you know, he talks really great about that company, because it was a family. It was, I think, a privately held company very well run and very felt like at home, like they treated their employees very, very well. My mother worked at a place where they built pianos, okay, and so that's that was a lot of her work that she did, and she did a lot of like, hand manual work on sanding and doing things, things like that. So they both, I think the great thing about that is that while they had these experiences, it really afforded them an opportunity to have that living wage right and be able to make it. They understood that. But, you know, at the same time, they always, while they appreciated those opportunities, they always instilled in me that I needed to go to college, because they saw the managers and the administration at those at those factories, and they said, I want you to be the guy that wears a tie, you know, that walks around, right? So, so that was like, the thing that they always instilled in me is the importance of higher education. Even though they weren't, they didn't have the higher education, but they wanted me to have that opportunity. And I think in a
Matt Kirchner:lot of ways, the world of manufacturing and manufacturing, and manufacturing leadership has evolved to a point where, you know, where it probably wasn't the case, and I could say for sure it wasn't always the case. And there was, in those days, a, you know, there are the workers, and they're the managers and leaders, and every once in a while, you could jump from one end to the other. I think credit to manufacturing that looks a lot different now, where we're looking at how you bring in entry level people, and then lifelong learning, continuing education, and for someone that has both a desire and an aptitude for growing in a manufacturing organization, really the sky's the limit in so many cases today. But back to the story of your parents, incredible credit, and what kind of flowed through, I think both of those last two answers is this whole idea of commitment, right? Whether it's, I mean, you mentioned that they're still alive and well in Florida today, you know, doing a little bit of math, if they, if they came to the US in the early 60s. I mean, that's, that's a marriage that has lasted a long, long time, over 60 years. Yeah, exactly after meeting each other after three months. What an incredible commitment your parents have to each other to you and saying, we want the absolute best for our son, and we're going to make sacrifices, and we're going to show him a path to now being president of an incredible institution like MATC. I know you're also just we mentioned students, insanely committed to students, and in fact, your mantra for MATC is students first. I love that. I think so often in education, we forget about that, right? That really, you know, we've got students on one end of the equation and we've got employers and opportunities and jobs or whatever comes next on the other and incredible value from both those stakeholders in as much as we're super focused on taking care of our team, taking care of faculty, staff, anybody else that's part of this experience, keeping students right out in front really, really important. So talk about that commitment, why that's so important to you, ultimately.
Anthony Cruz:And we can look at higher education as a business or not a business. And sometimes individuals in higher education don't like to talk about higher education as a business, right, as an industry, right? But we are right, and our students are customers. And for me, somebody that's been in higher education for over 30 years, I know that without students, right, we wouldn't have our institution and our students come to us from all walks of life and really looking for an opportunity. And then so when we have conversations at the college, whether it be at the executive leadership team or it be another venue, any venue at the college, I want to make sure that the conversations happen and are around students right. What student needs are what the student experience is, and that's how we get to then everything else. And obviously, we need our employees. We need our staff, we need our faculty. They're very important. We need to support them. But ultimately. Are. They're there to educate, to educate and support, because we have people who are educating in the classroom. We also have individuals that are outside of the classroom that are providing the support students need to be successful. So both of those are critical, but we know that students are at the center of what we do, and so we have to continue to think that way. How is this going to impact our students? Right and and just as important it is to have that focus, we know that the relationships that we built in the community, with our industry partners, with our community partners and others, is also going to be very important to our students. So so it's not just about what's happening internally within our walls, but it's also about what those opportunities are outside of our walls and how and for me, it's very important to build those relationships. So our students, again, are getting the opportunities that they need. I mean, do we have, you know, do they have the apprenticeship opportunities that they need? Do they have those internships or those jobs that really will pay that family sustaining wage that has to do with, again, thinking about students again, we, these are our partners, but we're doing it because of the students. For sure, everything is about, for me, is about the students. If we don't have, if enrollment dips significantly, like it did during the pandemic, that has a tremendous impact, not only on our bottom line as an institution financially, but it also has an impact on the community, because that means that fewer people are getting the opportunity to get the education that need in order to get the jobs that they need to sustain their families
Matt Kirchner:exactly right, and we've seen the impact of that. And you know, post covid in a lot of cases, I mean, the the acute need on the workforce side, in a lot of ways, was was fueled by, you know, lower enrollment, and, you know, a variety of educational institutions that took place through through covid. It's been interesting for me, as someone involved quite, quite frequently with technical and community colleges that most of them that we work with are seeing rising enrollment, which is super, super exciting, and at a time, by the way, where Democrat demographics aren't exactly supporting, you know that trend, right? I mean, if we look at the enrollment cliff, I think it was called, I think it was called, I don't know if we're supposed to use that word anymore, but yeah, oh, the in, oh 809, when you know, some of the economic troubles hit the United States, parents were having fewer kids, and now all those kids are, you know, 17, 1819, at their at that age, where it's like, All right, do I go direct to workforce? Do I go into the military? Do I go to a technical college to a community college? Do I go to a university? And whatever that, you know, whatever those options are, there's fewer of those students making those decisions. So to be talking about enrollment rising at a time when this, you know, when this family of people that potentially could be coming into a technical college isn't as big as it used to be, that really says something about the focus on the students. And I, I like the way you tied that all together. You know, we get into these debates sometimes, and I think they're kind of false debates about, you know, do we exist for the employers, or do we exist for the students? Or, as I've heard it put, is it a job for every student or a student for every job? And my answer is always yes, you know, we got to figure out how to do both of these. But to your point, if you focus on students and their futures and looking them in the eye and saying, Look, if you want, if you go through this certificate program, if you earn this Associate degree, there's a job for you waiting on the other side, or a future for you. And really, in my mind, the American Dream waiting for you on the other side of that. And they get to the end of that, and there's no job or opportunity. We just really took an advantage of that student. So it's that's
Anthony Cruz:not the reason we're here, right, right? We're here to educate, but because we want to make sure that we're aligned with industry and the jobs that are out there, I think the great thing about the technical colleges is that while we do serve that 17 or 18 year old that's coming right out of high school going into college, we also serve so many people that have either never gone to college or coming back to college in order to retool so we our average age is 29 so that means that while the enrollment Cliff issue is a big one and a real one for a lot of four year colleges and universities that highly depend on that 17 or 18 year old to fill the seats, sure, we also are fortunate to have so many individuals that come to us at all stages of their Life, right, looking for opportunity and coming back. And we know that, even though there's been a lot of talk in the media and a lot of things about the value of higher education, the value of technical education is probably bigger today than 100% right? And people know that it's tangible. They can go in, whether it be a certificate, diploma or two year degree come out and get a job that you can't say that about a lot of other degrees, right, that are out there. And so that makes us, I think, pretty special. And and even, and I've worked at multiple institutions, other community college, you know, two year colleges, community colleges, but technical colleges specifically are very special because they not only bring in, we offer associate degree programs for students to go transfer, but we also have a lot of opportunities for the trades and manufacturing and other areas where students can come in and go right into the world of work after they've completed their credential with us. So that makes us, I would say, really something that that I'd. About what I absolutely
Matt Kirchner:want. I'm glad you pointed a couple things out there. First of all, is, and I should have mentioned as well, the average age of most of these colleges. You're right, isn't, aren't you know, certainly you've got younger people coming in, and we want to attract people to technical colleges. There's no question. But really, the environmental, lifelong learning and the opportunity to have on ramps and off ramps into and out of education to use your word word to retool as technology changes, as the economy changes. You know, all these things that take place and that we're able to do through our Technical College is super, super important. And also the distinction, as you put it in, sometimes we lump Technical and Community Colleges together, and here in the state of Wisconsin, the focus on Technical College, technical skills and the understanding that you know that there's just great, great jobs waiting for people on the other side of this education pathway is really, really important. And again, all of that going back to students and focusing on students. And as we were preparing for this episode, we read a little bit about coffee with Cruz, yeah, I absolutely love that, and that was one of the very first things you did after becoming president, we should mention just last year. So just in 2024 correct? In July? Yeah, July of 2024 so we're just over, just over a year, yeah, so in pouring coffee and speaking directly with students, right? So it's one thing to sit in a studio like this and say, hey students, first, that's awesome. It's another thing to be, you know, living and practicing what you preach, and so getting right out in front of students and faculty as well. Tell me about the kind of things you learn really sitting down one on one with whether it's somebody that's delivering learning in the classroom or in a lab, or the students that are receiving that learning. Why is that kind of one on one conversation and connection so
Anthony Cruz:important? Well, it gives me a much better perspective as to what's really happening. We can read a lot about what's happening in higher education, right? And there's a lot of great information out there, and people can tell me what's happening as well at the college, but I want to hear it for myself. And so I just came right now from our MEC one campus, yeah, we just had a coffee with Cruz, sure, sure. And so we started that up again this fall, and we do that in the fall, in the spring we I, so I go to each of our campuses and have that opportunity to talk to our students and faculty and staff. And sometimes I do learn things about what's happening at the college, like, you know, they have needs, you know, they'll tell me like, Hey, how come? You know, the cafeteria is not open at this time, or we need, you know, this lab that we had before, and what happened to that lab? And sometimes I don't know at that moment what happens the lab, but I will find out what what happened to the lab, and is there an alternative to that lab that they can be using? And so it gives me that, you know, that face to face and that first front line type of perspective, right as to what's going on. And again, same thing with faculty and staff. It works because when we do something, you know, when that issue comes up, I have some perspective, like, Yeah, I had a faculty member, or a few faculty members that have talked to me about this as an issue, and maybe I didn't even think it was an issue, but, you know, they're looking at it from their perspective, how it impacts them, and now they're sharing that with me. So then it makes me a better decision maker, right? We talk about making data informed decisions. We can look at it as you know, things that are on a sheet of paper. That is data, but there's also just that in that data that we collect by having conversations. And you know, it's more, much more qualitative in nature, but nonetheless, it's just as important to get that information and understand what people are thinking
Matt Kirchner:totally. You get the facial expression behind it, you get the emotion behind it. And you know what we say, whether it's in the businesses that we're involved with, with or otherwise, is, look, we're not going to be able to solve every problem, but, but we'll always listen, right? And we'll solve as many as we can. And also, by the way, if, if we hear this from one person, that's one data point, you know, if we hear it from 10 people, it's like, Huh? Maybe this is something that we need to look a little bit more deeply into it. Yeah, and what I find is that oftentimes, just the opportunity, whether it's a student sharing a concern, or a faculty member or member of staff that's that's sharing something that's bothering them, just the ability to unload that and know that they've been heard makes a huge difference. So that's so one of the great things I think, that you brought to the MATC district is this interested in spending time listening to students, spending time listening to faculty and staff reacting and solving problems, when and where you can you've worked a lot of places. I mean, we talked about you spent some time in St Louis, you spent some time in Ohio, lots of time in Florida. Spent your early years in the Chicago area. Now you're here at MATC in a city like Milwaukee. Talk a bit about where you think innovation and technical education is here at MATC, and what aspects of that drew you to this region where, by the way, it is. You know, we're about two months away from wintertime. And I know the winners in Don't remind me, please, yeah, winners in Wisconsin, they're not quite the winners like the winners in Miami or a lot of places in the country, right? Not even like in St Louis or since be clear about that, there's a
Anthony Cruz:difference. Well, I think, you know, what drew me here, first and foremost, was the, you know, I really wanted to come to an organization, a college that had multiple campuses, and I and. And each campus has really like its own flavor, right? And almost its own culture in some ways. Yeah. I mean, you go from campus to campus, and there's differences, so I really was drawn to that, and drawn to having an opportunity to lead a larger district what I've learned. And one of the things that what makes us really strong as a technical college system is actually the Wisconsin federal college system, the system itself, right? System, the 16 colleges are so strong, and we are so collaborative, and that's what really makes us very different from even other places where I've worked, in other states, where it's really been kind of like a battle of between institutions. Here, we really work together. We have a president's Association for the system. We actually had the system office which the President,
Matt Kirchner:she was here about, I don't know, probably three months ago
Anthony Cruz:or so I saw that. So, yeah, so Atlanta is amazing, and so she leads the system and but there's a lot of collaboration there, you know? And we work together when we when we work on issues that are facing the colleges. We go to Madison together, even though, even we may do it individually, but collectively, meaning that we're we have the same message. Absolutely, we have the same message. When we're looking for more, more, more funding, we have the same message. There have been other places where everybody's scrambling and fighting, and it's Hunger Games, right? It's not the Hunger Games here, and so that I really love that, and awesome. Then the collaboration we have with the Presidents as well. I mean, it's great that we help each other out when there's something that we don't understand, or something an obstacle that we're facing as an institution. Hey, are you facing the same thing? What's going on over there? And we're in all different parts of the state, very different parts of the state, but nonetheless, we're serving students, and we're serving communities, right? And we're serving industry, so it's great to have that, and that has, I think, reinforced, you know, my reason for coming here is like having that type of collaborative, type of of system that really works together to really making it just stronger all together. Yeah, sure, it's one thing that makes us, I think, again, use the word special, right, specialized as a system and for this and the way that we work for the state, yeah, agree 100%
Matt Kirchner:and you know, it's interesting, because I've been, I've been interacting following my manufacturing days and getting on the education side now, 10 years ago, and I would say even since then. I mean turning back 10 years, the there was always collaboration among our technical colleges. And by the way, the system in the state of Wisconsin is not a centralized system, right? So every college has its own board. All the programs have their advisory boards. There's a State System office that has some influence, but can't call you up and tell you what to do correct, you know, for and there's other states that are totally different. I spent time down in Indiana, and you know, the president there, who, for a number of years, was Dr Sue osperman. She's, I think, recently retired. But at any rate, I mean, they could, they, you know, they turn, tell this ship to turn, and the entire state of Indiana turns. That's, you know, that's not the way it works in Wisconsin. I think there's benefits and drawbacks to both models, but the one we have here, tremendous amounts of independence at the individual college levels. And I would tell you, at least in my perception, 10 years ago, there was still a degree of collaboration. But it isn't what it is today. And today, you see, I was at marine park yesterday, with, with, with Bonnie bearwald, traveling with Paul Carlson from LTC next week. I was with rich Barnhouse last week from from Waukesha County Technical College. And I'm going to a gateway event tonight, Gateway Technical College. So, so lots of engagement with the technical colleges here in the state of Wisconsin. And somebody said, I think it was Dr Carlson, actually, that said to me that we're now at a point in Wisconsin where more than half of the college presidents came from outside the state. That's correct, yeah, which is, which is interesting. And I think if you had asked me 10 years ago, is that a good thing or a bad thing, I might have shrugged my shoulders, and, you know, no, no offense to President company said, I don't know. I mean, maybe we should be promoting people from Wisconsin, I think in a lot of ways, that has added to collaboration. And maybe some of the we were, we were talking before about the before we went on about the vitriol, or at least the battle between the Chicago Cubs and the Milwaukee Brewers, right? And some of that territorial stuff that maybe existed 10 years ago. I think we see less of that. And I think there's that there's tremendous positive influence as a result of that. Are there certain areas in which you think the colleges are, you know, particularly collaborative, and advancements that you're seeing now that, you know, maybe some of that territorial conflict, for lack of a better term, it has dissipated, and now it's a more collaborative approach. I think, you
Anthony Cruz:know, things like dual enrollment is a big deal to all of us, so we're all on the same page. There students getting getting college credit while they're in high school, right? And how is that funded? How can we work with the state on making sure that that's funded even at the higher level. So there's there'll be more students, and I think that benefits all students across the state, rural, suburban, urban, doesn't matter. Dual enrollment is an amazing opportunity for our high school students Totally agree to start getting college credits. I think that just in general, like looking at transferability of credit, right? Is very important as well to us, because we want to make sure if our students are coming to our institutions, that if they decide that they want to transfer to a university, that they'll be able to transfer as many credits, probably, hopefully, all credits, to that institution, and be able to then cut down on their expenses, on the time that they'll have to take extra credits. So we continuously work on that kind of to talk about it. How can we make this better? And many of our institutions have worked specifically with with our institutions that are like UW m here, right, like our regional universities that are in our areas. But I think that there's a bigger question here in Wisconsin, whether we can make this, you know, something where it is more global when it comes to transferability of credit from the from the technical colleges to the universities, even between the university sometimes that's been an issue. So those are two topics. I mean, it's about how we can serve our students better and how we can serve our communities better. And there those, those are just two examples of of of issues that can help all students in Wisconsin, yeah, and all our students that are going to the technical colleges in Wisconsin, absolutely
Matt Kirchner:one. And I mean, I love that the idea of, you know, credit transfer ability, creating I like the term on ramps, on off ramp, stackability. You know, so many conversations that we got into several years ago were about, well, yeah, you know, if you take this course in high school, it counts to, you know, as three credits toward, you know, the University of Wisconsin, fill in the blank for such and such a Tech College. And then it's like, okay, but to To what degree program? Well, you know, it'll count as a gen ed or, you know, and it's like, we call them credits to nowhere. You know, it's great to have dual credit, but if, just, if you're telling a student in high school, if you take this course, it's going to count toward a college degree. And a college degree, and they get there, and it doesn't, it's like you've just, you've just kind of ripped off the time of that, of that student. So I love the the advancements that are happening there. I want to talk a little bit Dr Cruz about the MATC district itself, and for people, again, I don't want to get too wonky, but I mean, if you think about here in the state of Wisconsin, I'm gonna go out on the limb and your say, your district probably includes the, you know, the wealthiest and highest net per capita net income areas in the entire state. I know for a fact that it includes some of the most poverty stricken areas in the entire state. Reflect on that a little bit. And you know, economic diversity would be part of that. You know, separate from that would be cultural and racial diversity. I mean, you have, I believe, the most diverse college in the entire state of Wisconsin, but it is the
Anthony Cruz:most diverse, and it is one of the most diverse in the entire Midwest. Interestingly, yeah, chat, GPT facts, but we are the largest nonprofit technical college in the country. Wow, really, it was that by student or student, number of students, because it's amazing, because there's a, yeah, you know, there are some for profit that are in different places in the country, right? If you add those up, you know, some of them will be more than 30,000 students, but right now, we serve about 31,000 students a year. And so, yeah, that's, that's a, just shows you like the impact, or whatever.
Matt Kirchner:Well, that honestly. I mean, I should have known that, but that surprises me. And you think about enrollment at even the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, or the University of Wisconsin Madison, which you think of as these huge institutions of higher education, and you're right in that same neighborhood. Wow, that's really, really amazing. So, so talking about, was that part of what drew you here, or was that part of what's when you came as part
Anthony Cruz:of it, I think that, I think the first think that, I think diversity was, was part of it. Came from a very diverse part of the country, in Miami. So I think that what did draw me here? I think that there's that, you know, there. I think that's a strength, definitely. And then there's also challenges that we face, right? So we we face, you know, challenges in the sense of like, and I mentioned this before, multi generational, or generational poverty, you know, that exists in Milwaukee, right? And so we're we feel as an institution, that we have an obligation to be an engine of economic mobility, right? For students, making sure students are getting the education they need, and get them then into the workforce and get that family sustaining wage. But I think that's a great thing to have. The diversity we have. Again, financial need is one thing. So we have an amazing foundation, MATC foundation, that works very diligently on trying to increase the scholarships that we offer to our students. Years ago, my predecessor, Dr Martin, instituted the Promise program. But we also have all different kinds of scholarships that we put into place in the last several years. And that's something that's very important, because we have so many first generation college students, so many students that have financial need, and for a first generation college student, need also, we've put in, in the last several years, support systems for those students, right? So we have things like, we just don't have academic advisors. We also have retention coaches that we put in the last five years. I think it was been five years that we've had the retention coaches now, and so putting different layers of support for students, and this is for all students, but students are coming in first generation, trying to, you know, get acclimated, to understand what college is about. So having multiple layers of of help is really important again, in addition to the scholarships, we have food pantries on each of our campuses. Have counseling services. We have a lot of different supports that we didn't have, let's say, 20 years ago, given the diversity of our students and both economic, racial, cultural, everything the different, I think those are all great things. We just have to be very cognizant of making sure that we're addressing the needs of students that so it is challenging. It's not easy, sure, challenging, but I think it's a great challenge for us, because ultimately, it's about that economic mobility. How do we get to that economic mobility for everyone? And to do that, we need to meet the needs what they have now, while they're in college, all those things, all the support services, in addition to having really amazing faculty in the classroom, then lead to somebody getting that credential, then that gets them that economic mobility,
Matt Kirchner:especially in a city like Milwaukee, you mentioned generational poverty, I've seen that firsthand, and it's, it's heartbreaking, right? I think about the world in which I grew up in and having, having the blessings of, you know, parents who set a great example kind of showed me what it was to, you know, to work hard, to aspire to something better. You know, had any had examples for me in my life of all right, this actually happens for people. And if you're not surrounded by people who've had that same benefit, you're really starting at A, almost an intellectual disadvantage, not not in terms of intelligence, but just in terms of, you know, emotionally understanding what's what's available
Anthony Cruz:and possible. You don't have the social capital, right? The social capital is so critical and not that we can kind of replace all of that, right? But we definitely try to fill the holes and try to make sure that we give students the help they need. Because one of the things that students, a lot of students, face is like a lack of grit. I think we're born with grit. I believe that we can enhance our grit and nurture it, but somebody has to nurture it, right, and help you nurture it. And so we need to continue to work with our students to to nurture that grit, to increase grit for our students, because that's what's going to get them from semester to semester. To semester, year to year, and then finally getting into the workforce. It's not easy again, that's not but it's just it's being intentional, trying to think about that as something that we need to do, like you mentioned, it's not anything about intellectual capacity, because we have a lot of brilliant students that come to us, that come again, with different academic backgrounds, different academic preparation, and we're trying to get them to the point where we can really tap into their intellectual capacity, yes, and get them to that next level. And I think that we can do it. And some people, you know, you know, they will say, well, that's not even possible, or whatever, that's really difficult. Yeah, I'm not saying it's easy. Yeah, it's definitely worth trying. We have to try because, because the community is, at least, from my point of view, the community is depending on us, sure as an institution to be able to do that. Because you can go to many institutions of higher education country, 1000s of them, and some of them are very selective, and some of them are really amazing, and many of them, most are amazing. But we're meeting students where they are, and that doesn't happen at every institution, but being a technical college in Wisconsin gives us that opportunity.
Matt Kirchner:And we mentioned the community and the value providing there. But you know, I think about it in terms of individuals, and every single individual that you can put on a path that they wouldn't otherwise have been on, that's that's transformational, that's life changing and really, really important. I
Anthony Cruz:just want to highlight one thing, you know, so we also have a program that we had now for three years. We have the jakota scholars. So Joe jacota, Ellen and Joe jacoda have been amazing donors for the college. They've given the college over $5 million over the last couple years, and other people have matched, you know, their donations. And last three years, we've used about $8 million in Dakota scholarships to basically help students get through one year programs. These are one year diploma programs that will give them a living or family sustaining wage upon completion. So 1200 students have completed this program and have been their lives have changed absolutely because of that. In it, because it's not only about giving them tuition, it's not only giving them books, it's also giving them food vouchers. It's giving them maybe a place to live. It's helping them with daycare. It's really an all in type of scholarship that has really had a huge impact on 1200 students right, in only three years. And that's the kind of thing that we would like to see. More of those things are getting individuals to where they'd like to get to, which most of them come to us because they want to change, you know, and transform their lives.
Matt Kirchner:Well, you think about the exponential power of that, right? Yes, their life is going to be way better. We're also helping to solve for a workforce problem in and around all kinds of different economic areas in the city of Milwaukee. So now they've got skilled team members. Now you have people that are earning, you know, a family supporting rate wage, that maybe already have kids or are having kids. And those, those young people, are growing up in a different environment than they might otherwise have. Growing up in those people that are earning those wages, that money doesn't sit in their bank account, right? They're spending that
Anthony Cruz:money over the economy, yeah, that investment, which, in some of these students, is maybe a $10,000 investment yields, like, think about it, life check, right? Well, the payback is money because, yeah, because now you're talking about, you know, you know, somebody coming out making $55,000 a year, right? Yeah, where they were, they may have been working a job where they were making 20 something$1,000 a year. Now they more than doubled their annual income and put them on a road that will not only change, like you had mentioned, not only changes their lives, but that changes the lives of the few people who depend on them, or just their family in general.
Matt Kirchner:And does it in one year, and does it in a way that you know, a lot of those folks probably don't have$10,000 or maybe can, or can't borrow $10,000 to even have that opportunity, and so now you've just absolutely accelerated that individual's life. So credit to you for that. I want to credit you with one other thing, which I think is really kind of fascinating as we've had this conversation. I know I knew your predecessor, Vicki Martin, you referenced a couple times. Hey, I didn't start this but, but the previous leadership did, and it's a good idea, and we've kept it going. And I can't tell you how many times I've been in and around higher education where a new leader comes in and changes everything. And if something that was happening was a bad idea, they changed that. And if something was happening was a really good idea, they changed that too, because it has to be their agenda. And the fact that you're both forward thinking enough and humble enough to say, look, if something's working really, really well, let's let's just make that even better. We don't need to start this all over. Have you been told that before? And is that kind of part of your philosophy in terms of leadership? I
Anthony Cruz:don't think everybody's told me that before, to be honest, but, but I feel that I really try to analyze things when I first came in and start looking at things, and I've been about a year, and I have a good sense of what's working and what's not. And I have a feeling that if I can determine that something's working right, we're gonna continue it. It's like, it's like, and I can build on it. Even the promise where, right now, we're looking at making some adjustments that promise to actually make it a little bit more like the criteria, a little bit wider. So it's like more students can, can, can take advantage of it, because I think a little bit restrictive right now, I think that we can do that, but that opens up the opportunity for donors to say, hey, if we open it up, that means that we're going to give more money to students, which means we will need more money in order, through our foundation, in order to fund that right? And there are some things that we'll be looking at in the future that will be will be changed, but I think that there is so much that has been going on that's going really well, and I want to make sure that those things continue, and then we'll tweak those things as needed, and then there will be new things that come about that will be brand new, that will really make a whole lot of difference as well. I'm really big in into I won't go into specifics, but it's like about the partnerships that we have with our businesses. And I want to see more of that. I want to see something more around how we provide internships to students earlier in their in their inner college careers, so they can taste what it is to be in that particular industry. And at most four year college universities, you have that experience at the end of the four years. And there are a lot of robust types of internships that industry that offer to students when they're coming out of four year. I want to see if we can, you know, kind of disrupt that a bit in the sense that, how can we work with industry and with businesses to do more on the front end? Because I did some things in Florida with micro internships and early in the students career, to give them the taste of what it is to be in that in that career. So then that way they can have more of an incentive to continue, rather than putting it at the end. And in our case, we're looking at two years, right at most your degrees, but I think that we can do that at the front end. So businesses here in Milwaukee, as I start to approach them about something related to that, it's important for them to keep an open mind about our students, because I've already talked to, you know, I talked, you know, I've been talking to a lot of employers and individuals, you know, throughout the last year, a lot of it, and I get to internships. They're like, Yeah, we have an internship. I go. So who do you know? Who goes? I'll go. Well, seniors, well, seniors at four year colleges, yeah, if you take anybody from two years. No like. Well, why not like? And in some of these jobs, I'm telling you, they're not necessarily in the trades there. These are maybe in in finance, you know, some, some other area. And I'm thinking, you know, our students could do this after two years. They could do this. I mean, if you require and that's another thing that you know, it's happening right now in industry. Industry is looking and businesses are looking at the four year degree is not necessarily. Shouldn't be a requirement for every type of position that you have. If you have the right training and you have the right aptitude and you have the right attitude, yeah, you should be able to give people that opportunity. So I want, I want our businesses to kind of open, a little bit more open minded about about students. A technical colleges, a two year colleges, what they can offer, because I think they can offer a whole lot, and they could come in, they can come into the organizations. Maybe they don't come at the same level, but they can come into that organization and learn and and, you know, and do some really great stuff. But I think that internships are, I really, I'm a big believer in, like, experiential learning, right? And whether it be apprenticeships or internships and externships, and I believe that there are opportunities for our students to if we can get more of that, the better. But it's it's hard, because one thing that I noticed when I was in Florida was that the larger the larger corporations, like, I'm talking about, like whatever, let's say your fortune 100 or whatever. Yeah, it's hard to get them to enter into these types of agreements, right? Because they have very largely legal teams and things like that. I did a lot of work with small businesses, and small business owners directly, more flexible, more they know what their needs are, and they look at an MOU that it's very simple, and say, I could do that. I can sign it's not gonna cost me anything. And yeah, sounds like a great opportunity,
Matt Kirchner:right? Yeah, for sure. So yeah, a couple things on that. First of all, I would think that the business community would be eager for that, given the right value proposition, right? So you start to think about, what's the value of a student understanding what they love and don't love at the beginning of their education pathway, as opposed to at the end? Huge value there, right? So we're not investing, it's like, it's like, you know, investing in a in a process, in a manufacturing operation. But you know, if we have an issue on on stage one, and we're adding value to that the whole way, to find out that we have something we can't use on the other end, you know, and not, not to compare a student to a manufactured product, but, you know, but the analogy goes that if we can figure out early on, yes, I love this, or maybe this wasn't the best thing for me. That's that's good for everybody, that's really good for the student, that's good for the college, that's good for the community. And then you start to think about building these relationships with students early in their path. I mean, when people, a lot of times, we hear from people, well, you know, we don't, we're not getting enough students from the technical colleges. And well, maybe that's true. Part of that is that somebody else is getting those students, and it's the people that are really, really engaged with the college. I will tell you in one of our ed tech companies, we had a different college in Wisconsin, but we had a technical college student, Jordan Zachariah, was her name, who worked in our business early in her early in her college pathway, and was awesome, added tremendous value and learned a ton about the business she was getting into. Will also tell you it occurs to me as we're having this conversation, our very first audio engineer on the TechEd podcast came to us while her name is Grace caster, while she was an MATC student, and actually early in her, in her program, in her, her broadcasting and audio engineering program. I'm not getting that program exactly right, but that was what she was studying. And did a tremendous job, phenomenal job. She's doing some other things, but, but got her once they got her once they got her start, but certainly got some great, great experience right here on the podcast. So I can attest to the fact, as you're talking to employers, play this episode back, and Matt Kirkner will say, there's huge, huge value. There's huge, huge value in having those students start early. I think that's a really, really innovative approach. Speaking of innovation, let's talk a little bit about AI. Let's talk about automation. All of that is reshaping industries. It's also gonna, you know, this technology is gonna reshape the college experience, both for faculty and staff and for students. So you can't get through a conversation anymore without talking about artificial intelligence. Hit on a little bit. And I know you've been, you've been a leader on this, and you've been actually quite an advocate for engaging and using artificial intelligence across your programs. Talk about how that's going to transform the technical college experience and our ability in the manner in which we deliver education?
Anthony Cruz:Yeah, it's, it's changing every day, right? And that's, that's the, I think the biggest challenge, right? You could say five years, 10 years. I think that, how about one year? Right? You know what's going to happen in the next few years. And can we, I think the biggest challenge we have as a Technical College is, how can we evolve? Can we change meet those needs quick enough, right? I think we're, I think, as an institution, and as it's two year colleges, I think we're very flexible, but at the same time, are we willing, or are we able to actually meet the challenge that we're faced with today? And we know that so many different professions, careers are changing because of AI, and we see that even now, in the news, just the last few days, how many 1000s of jobs right have been headlined in the Wall Street Journal yesterday, whatever? I don't know we want to call it, but I mean, at least for right now, they've been lost. Yeah, it doesn't get exactly disrupted, for sure, by AI. So, so how quickly can we adapt? And one thing that I think is critical is that when we look at our programs, all our programs, whether it be trades or, you know, other academic programs, he's like, how can we integrate AI into those programs? So then our students, it's not about having an AI program, necessarily. And nothing wrong with that either, but, but there's we don't need those students to be aI experts, but to know how AI works in their exact field, and so that's the challenge that we have. We're working on that, and we're trying to see how we can, you know, improve on that, I think, but it's just moving very, very quickly, and in higher ed usually, even though I believe that we are very flexible and are pretty swift on our feet. Right? I still think that we're, I don't know if we can be swift enough, right, within how this is all changing so rapidly.
Matt Kirchner:In the past, we said that, you know, higher education transformed one retirement at a time, right? And I heard somebody say, one death at a time. I thought that was a little bit dark, so I don't use that one a little bit better, right? But, but I think you're right. I think if we wait for entire generations of team members to turn over, we're going to miss this opportunity.
Anthony Cruz:Yeah, so we're going to have to, we're going to have to look at finding more individuals or thought leaders, and employing those individuals internally that will help us kind of reshape this right, and reshape it quickly enough, and reshape it in a way that is not seen as a threat, because, again, anytime you change things, and we've done things something, and some programs have been done for a long time in a certain same, similar way, yeah, I think we want to do it in a way that's not going to be threatening. But nonetheless, I feel like it's something that has to happen. It does for us to not just, I don't say, survive, I don't think that that. I think it's more about that we're doing the right thing for our students right at the end. You know, students first. So if we're not in this, what's going to happen when that student graduates and then goes into, you know, industry and then and finds themselves like, what? What is this exactly?
Matt Kirchner:Yeah, they're gonna be threatened now, or they're going to be threatened when they get to the workforce. You'd rather have them work through that threat now and make sure that they're prepared. I think absolutely so. Speaking of being prepared, I'm prepared to ask you two more questions, and I feel like I've asked you another 100, but, but, but we're limited on time for better or worse, and so want to make sure I'm being respectful of yours. Two questions that I think we can finish the podcast off with here. They're questions we love hearing from our from our guests and and we ask every single one of our guests these, these two questions. The first one is, is there something we haven't talked about already about education? Everybody has their own path through education. You've been in and around it, you know, your whole life and your career. Is there something that you believe Dr cruise about education that would surprise other people.
Anthony Cruz:It's a great question, maybe people, and maybe it's about this thing, about change, right? And I think that you talked about before, about that change, whether or not higher ed is open to change, or people maybe have a preconceived notion that that higher ed is not one that will change. And I think that's not necessarily true. I think, I think we definitely don't move at the speed of a business, right? But I think that we do move, and we do make changes, and we are innovative. It's just that we do it in a maybe a little bit different speed, right? One thing that I try to do in the organizations that I'm in, and because I've worked also in the private sector, is try to instill in people a little bit different frame of reference when it comes to making change again, people are a lot of times threatened by change, and I think that one of the things that I tell individuals is that, and I tell people to college right now, that our biggest enemy is the status quo, yes, and we have to continue to change and transform in order to really keep up with everything. Won't necessarily happen at the at the speed of like people would want, but I think it's still happening Absolutely. And I think that that may be a little bit something that people don't think that's happening, but it maybe happens a little bit slower, but also individuals, you know, it depends on who is the leader. Could help a lot in trying to move things along a little bit faster. And I don't want to be again. I think disruption is a good thing, positive purpose, purpose, and I think that I want to continue to be disruptive, and try to make sure that individuals know that if we are disruptive for a good purpose, right, we'll get good things happening. And the status quo continues to be our enemy when
Matt Kirchner:we say right in the intro to the podcast every week that we have conversations with leaders who are disrupting education, and so that, you know, you wouldn't be here if we didn't see you as a, as a, as a disruptor. So so certainly appreciate that aspect of it. I think the other thing that it's important for employers to understand, you know, I came from a small to medium sized manufacturing world where you could make a decision Monday, implement it on Wednesday, and see the results on Friday, and feel like, Why can't education move faster? And it's like, well, there's certain guardrails in the, you know, especially in public education that doesn't exist in the rest of the world, or at least in the world that we're from, and you have to be respectful of that right over there for a reason. And there's process and and some people would call it bureaucracy, and sometimes that's the case, but a lot of times it's just no there's really thoughtful processes and procedures that we have to go through to make sure that the disruption that we do engage in is well thought out and well prescribed. So I think it's important for people to recognize that. But I do appreciate the, you know, the philosophy and the spirit of disruption taking place at MATC on an ongoing basis. I want to go back now one last question. You're a 15 year old young man, I'm guessing at that point, were you in Chicago? You're in Miami. So yeah, that's right. First nine years in Chicago, so six years after you moved to Miami or 15 year old man, sophomore in high school, give or take. And if you could go back to that one individual and give them one piece of advice, what would that be?
Anthony Cruz:I think patience, yeah. And I'm gonna give you a little bit more on that. So maybe my 15 year old self, they wouldn't know this. But I think that even if you were looked. At my if I even looked at 15 years ago. So in my career, I always thought that, you know, I always wanted to climb the ladder, but not just for financial reasons, but I thought, well, the higher I go in higher education, the more impact I will have on that organization, right? And I think that's true, but, but I would say that the higher you go up, the more you see the landscape, the more you see what's going on, right? And you find that it's not as easy, right? So you need that patience, yeah. So you don't, you see, you don't, you don't realize the things other people don't see them. Like, I'll just say this, I was an advisor at one time, right? An academic advisor. As an academic advisor, I would look up to the President and say, you know, I didn't, never said to the president, but I would think, you know, it's like, I was like, why don't you just change this? Yeah, why don't just change it? Exactly, change it. You have the power to change it. But when you sit in this seat as president, and you look around and there are so many competing interests and so many people and in organizations with agendas, not that easy to make change, right? You know, even though you want to make change, but there are certain things that just you got to be able to be patient, right? Doesn't mean that you're going to take your time and that you want to have the patience to know when's the right time, yep, to make certain decisions and to do certain things, because there are, it's much more complicated. So the higher you this is one thing I would say, like, the higher you go, right, the more you see the complexity. Absolutely you don't see the complexity at a certain level. But at the higher I've been, the higher, you know, every every step of the rung of the ladder that I have climbed I've been in every rung of the ladder in higher ed, yeah, right, the complexity has just increased and and I see more, right? And exactly more then it becomes more complicated, more complex. And that's why you have to be patient in the sense of how and when you make certain decisions. And doesn't mean that you wait for it, but you got to know when there's the right time to do things. I think that patience is really important and not to rush it, because then, then when you rush it, you miss, you may miss something that is very important.
Matt Kirchner:It's almost a blessing and a curse, right? So, you know, I get to be a president. I can do whatever I want the further up or whatever direction we want to talk about that you move in an organization. Yes, you have more freedom to make decisions. You have way more influence to steer the ship, but you have equally increased obligations, commitments and results that aren't always positive. If you just do whatever you want, you know some of those consequences. Yeah, you see more opportunity. You also see more consequences, balancing those two super, super important. Really, glad we had this out and had this opportunity, Dr Cruz, to have this conversation. Super, super interesting. The work you're doing at MATC, really, really impressive. So thanks for joining us. Well,
Anthony Cruz:Matt, it's been a pleasure, and thank you for having me on the podcast. And you know, I love what I do and and that's why I do it. Great
Matt Kirchner:conversation that we had with Dr Anthony Cruz, and can't thank him enough for taking time. We would invite everyone to check out the show notes, a handful of things that were referenced. We'll link those up in the show notes. We'll put those at TechEd podcast.com/cruise that's TechEd podcast.com/c r, u, Z, as always, check us out on social media. We are on Instagram, we are on Facebook, we are on LinkedIn. We are everywhere you consume your social media, including Tech Talk, by the way. So when you see that, reach out, smash that like button for our producer, she loves it when I say that, and don't forget to steer us again next week on the TechEd podcast, thank you so much for being with us. You.
