Reframing Higher Education: A Connected Model for Colleges and Universities - Dr. Katherine Frank & Dr. Sunem Beaton-Garcia

Higher education is shifting toward a connected model where colleges and universities function as one learner ecosystem. The goal is simple: make credentials stackable, transfer predictable, and pathways flexible enough for learners to move in and out of education as their careers evolve.

In this episode of The TechEd Podcast, Matt Kirchner speaks with Dr. Katherine Frank (Chancellor, University of Wisconsin–Stout) and Dr. Sunem Beaton-Garcia (President, Chippewa Valley Technical College) about how their institutions have developed streamlined pathways for learners that support lifelong learning.

They break down how institutions can design on-ramps and off-ramps, align programs across tech/community college and university systems, expand credit recognition, and keep partnerships active so transfer works in real life (no more "credits to nowhere"). The conversation also expands to what this shift means nationally as technology and workforce needs change faster.

Watch this episode on YouTube!

In this episode:

• What a connected model for colleges and universities actually requires in program design and policy
• How to make transfer predictable and student-friendly without lowering academic standards
• Why stackable credentials and credit for prior learning matter more as learners move in and out of education
• How to get around the red tape that has traditionally prevented colleges and universities from creating streamlined transfer pathways
• What higher education leaders should do next if they want to build the new model in their own region

3 Big Takeaways from this Episode:

1. A connected model keeps learners moving across colleges and universities. Stackable credentials, credit for prior learning, and predictable transfer reduce the stop-and-start pattern that derails working adults and career-changers. When pathways are designed for entry, exit, and return, education becomes a long-term system learners can use throughout their careers.

2. Transfer works at scale when it becomes an operating habit, not a one-time agreement. The UW–Stout and CVTC alignment shows what changes when institutions treat pathway design as ongoing work with shared ownership and recurring check-ins. That consistency is what makes transfer feel clear to students and sustainable for faculty and staff.

3. This model makes it easier to keep programs aligned as technology and jobs change. Modular, competency-aligned pathways let institutions update portions of a program without rebuilding the entire structure. It is a practical way to respond faster to industry signal while protecting rigor and program quality.

Resources in this Episode:

Read the op-ed co-written by Drs. Frank and Beaton-Garcia: "Reframing Higher Education"

➡️ Find more resources on the episode page: https://techedpodcast.com/disruption/

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Transcript

TechEd Podcast Introduction: 0:09

This is the TechEd podcast, where we feature leaders who are shaping, innovating and disrupting technical education and the workforce. These are the stories of organizations leading the charge to change education, to rethink the workforce and to embrace emerging technology. You'll find us here every Tuesday on our mission to secure the American Dream for the next generation of STEM and workforce talent. And now here's your host, Matt Kirchner,

Matt Kirchner: 0:38

welcome into this week's edition of The TechEd podcast. You know, this is Matt Kirkner, by the way, your host, when we did our predictions for 2025 so at the end of 2024 we walked through a number of predictions of what we saw coming in higher education and STEM education and technical education for the year 2025 our 26 episode just dropped a few weeks ago, so check that out. But when we were looking at what was going to happen in 2025 one of the predictions we made was that we would see a blurring of the lines of sorts between technical college and universities. Now, both of those styles of institutions still have incredible differences, incredible different roles to play in the world of higher education. But I was happy to take credit for being fairly accurate on that last prediction about the blurring of the lines between higher ed in both technical and community colleges and in universities, led by, in many ways, the two guests that we have on the podcast this week. So we're going to have a great conversation today about how higher ed is changing, I believe, for the better. Thanks to disruptors. If I'm allowed to use that term, like our two guests today, I want to first Welcome back to the TechEd podcast, because I believe this is her third episode. In fact, I'm almost sure that Chancellor Catherine Frank, the Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin, stout, has been on twice before. Chancellor, such a pleasure to have you back. And thank you so much for being with for being with us.

Katherine Frank: 2:03

Thank you so much, Matt. It's a pleasure to be back, and I'm a huge fan of the podcast.

Matt Kirchner: 2:08

Well, we know you are and we appreciate that support, and we're having so much fun, and it's really telling the stories of people like you and our next guest as well, who are really willing to take a new look at education. That makes what we do on the TechEd podcast at least as far as we feel a really, really special thing, but it's all because we're able to tell the stories of true innovators like yourself, Chancellor and our next guest, who is appearing on the podcast for the first time, somebody I've known for a number of years, known her institution even longer. Great respect for Dr Sun embiting, who is the president of Chippewa Valley Technical College in my home state of Wisconsin, both of these institutions, by the way, hailing from my home state of Wisconsin. So Dr, Beaton. Beaton Garcia, thank you so much for coming on the TechEd podcast.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 2:51

Matt, thank you for having me. And Catherine, I need to catch up three times. Okay, all right, we need to catch up. Thank you

Matt Kirchner: 2:58

for having me. Yeah, we've got a couple, a couple leaders. I think if I'm looking at our producer, producer Melissa Martin, I believe Mike Chico of FANUC, the CEO of FANUC, is still the all time leader of number appearances on The TechEd podcast. But we love having great guests like like the chancellor back and and soon I'm welcome to welcome to the platform, and I'm sure it's not going to be your last appearance either. And as our audience learns about the incredible innovation that's happening there in the western part of Wisconsin, they're going to want to have you back to hear about how all this is working out. We're talking about a new model in higher education. And the two of you collaborated and partnered on an op ed last year that was absolutely fascinating, talking about reframing higher education, which is something that I believe is really, really important. So let's talk about that outdated model of education and kind of looking in the rear view mirror and saying maybe the way that we've educated ourselves for the last century or for the last half century, doesn't necessarily and shouldn't be the way that we educate students for the next several decades. So talk about that outdated model of education as you see it, and why maybe we need to make some changes, because it's no longer serving its purpose. Yeah.

Katherine Frank: 4:03

And so thank you, Matt for the question. And you know, as a polytechnic university, we are always asking ourselves, How are we delivering our educational model? What is our value proposition? How are we preparing students to be successful after they leave UW Stout, and I know Sunan is asking herself and her team the same sorts of questions, so obviously, our our conversations intersect in this area. But you know, the bottom line is a one size fits all model of education, it's no longer relevant, and it hasn't been relevant for a while, and we're seeing the landscape of higher education changing, but it's the it's the world that surrounds us that's demanding that change. There's a variety of learning styles that are coming from an increasingly diverse student population. So now we'll talk about on ramps and off. Ramps. I've stolen that from her to the into the educational model. And we need to meet students where they are and students are coming at us at all different points in their professional journey and their educational journey. So we have to flex. We have to change. We have to be working with our technical education partners as well as our business and industry partners and listening to what the public is demanding in terms of how we deliver higher education

Matt Kirchner: 5:28

well, so thank you first of all for that on ramps and off ramps. Comment in the fact that you stole that from sun. Em, I stole that from you, Chancellor. So the truth of the matter is that I've used that, and I think it's just a perfect analogy for how we need to think about lifelong learning, how we need to think about the future of education we're getting. We'll get into things like, like competency based education and so on a little bit later in this episode. But anything you would add to that to them in terms of kind of looking back, and I should tell our audience, by the way, who you know. They're familiar to some degree, with the University of Wisconsin Stout, given the Chancellor's previous appearances on the podcast, but your institution is just an incredible leader, and has been for a long time, I've been engaged on the mechatronics programs, industrial mechanics, automation, industrial maintenance, mechanical design. You know your wilding programs, you really your CNC programs, really forward thinking. And so this is an institution that, in many ways, thanks to your leadership and others in your organization, has led the way for for technical colleges and community colleges in terms of what a technical college education should be. So you should be very proud of the incredible work you're doing, but you're also morphing your organization and looking kind of back at the at the older model of education. What would you add to Catherine's ideas about how and why we need to morph this model a little bit?

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 6:45

Yes, thank you. So Catherine, I both lead institutions that have been here for a very long time. CVCC has been in our region for 113 years now, and so we have existed this long because we have always met the moment and have known how to change and grow with our communities. And so now is no different. We're at a decisive time in higher education here in America, and it's not a crisis moment, it's a transition moment. And so higher education is changing. It's not something to fear, it's something to intentionally lead through. And I think Catherine and I kind of put our finger on there of what is needed from leaders like ourselves for our institutions so that we can meet the moment. CBTC as well as stout, are uniquely positioned to help through education but a strong lens on workforce and region economic vitality. We are very close to our communities. We know our industry partners. We know what it needs to make our part of the state thrive. And so we are meeting that moment. And that's why reframing what we do is important, and we do that ever so often if you're going to be successful. And so we are

Matt Kirchner: 7:53

meeting the moment, meeting the moment Absolutely. And I think it's an important distinction to make, as people listen from all over the country and all over the world that the model for technical education at the higher education level are technical colleges. In the state of Wisconsin is a decentralized model where you have many states where it's centralized and decisions are made from from one point. In our case, we certainly have statewide collaboration and leadership. But we also have, to your point, a model that allows every single college to be responsive to the unique aspects of its community, whether that's workforce, whether that's industry, whether that's students, and whether it's other regional institutions to partner with. And I think that's the nature of the next question sunium That I'll pose to you first, which is this whole idea of regional partnerships. So you're 30 miles apart. One is, is a, you know, your your typical four year university graduate program, university doctorate level education. And another one is a more of a traditional technical college, albeit really innovative and forward thinking one. So when you think about some of these regional partnerships with an institution of like the University of Wisconsin style, why are those so important to this new model of education? Do you think so?

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 9:01

No, absolutely. So I just wanted to say that reframing higher education really isn't about serving who we who we serve. So Catherine and I are very aware of who is in our community, what the educational attainment is of our community, and the work that we need to do. It's about serving them better, not about changing about who we serve, and so the regional partnerships are key, because we have the public trust. We've been here for a very long time, the respected organizations that have done tremendous for the economic viability of our community. So in that regard, CBTC has local authority with a district board that helps us be fluid, reactive, receptive and proactive in getting jobs that are needed right away, making immediate changes to curriculum based on industry need. And so having Catherine in my backyard, I have three UWS in my backyard, but Catherine is a poly technic, and her institution just is a natural complement to our programs. And so. So between us having this intentional focus on aligning our learning with labor market demand across our entire program array, just makes it a wonderful partnership and helps us be the model for what we think should be happening in higher education.

Matt Kirchner: 10:17

Yeah, I think it should be happening in higher education as well, and it's certainly important to partner with multiple UW System universities, but also recognizing that among all of the Chancellors right near, if not at the absolute, top of the list, as far as leading innovation, is Katherine Frank, and he's heard me say this many, many times, but somebody that isn't afraid to take calculated risk, isn't afraid to shake up that model. And so to you, Catherine, when we think about regional partnerships in the partnership like you and sunum have created between your institutions, what would you add to her answer, in terms of why that's so important,

Katherine Frank: 10:52

but you know, really that alignment between our institutions is key. And the mission of a polytechnic university, there's 13 UWS, and there's only one Polytechnic. And I think it's important for people to recognize the difference. We're not a research institution like Milwaukee or Madison, and we're not a comprehensive public like River Falls or some of the other UWS. We're distinct in our mission as a polytechnic, which means we function according to the ABCs of the Polytechnic, applied learning and research, business and industry, partnership and career, we're we're preparing our students for success after graduation, and we're looking very carefully at how we place those students. And if you think about that mission, and you think about the mission of CVTC, and you think about how we fuel the workforce of Wisconsin, we create between us an ecosystem, right that that allows for different points of entry into the workforce as well as into the educational funnel, right? So there's, again, on ramps and off ramps into the professional space, on ramps and on off ramps into our into and through our institutions. And it's the alignment that works so well between our institutions that makes it so effective. We share a lot of business and industry partners, and those business and industry partners need all of our graduates, not just UW Stout graduates, not just CVTC graduates, but all of our graduates and beyond. But as we're talking about the alignment between our institutions, we know we know how to get our students placed effectively. We know how to respond to business and industry needs. It's part of our DNA as institutions. So that alignment is really seamless. It takes work, but it's seamless.

Matt Kirchner: 12:48

We're going to get into some of the details of all the work that you've done in terms of getting through some of the red tape and some of the administrative hurdles that go along with trying to innovate in higher education. And a lot of those are in place for for good reason, but certainly make it a challenge when you're trying to make the model look a little bit different. I think the fact that you're focused, you know, certainly, on your employers, and recognizing that your employers are pulling talent at every from every discipline, every background, wide ranging needs, but also understanding what's right for your students and creating, you know, these when we talk about on ramps and off ramps, I mean, that really is the future of education. And you think about just how technology has changed even in the last three or four years. I'm just finishing up the book, the thinking machine, which is all about the evolution of Nvidia. We'll link that up in the show notes. If you haven't read it. It's a phenomenal book, but you just think about where that company, like that was, you know, even four or five years ago, versus the world that we're living in today, there's just no way that if we're going to have a viable workforce in the future, that we have to that we're going to be able to just finish whatever education pathway we decide to put ourselves on and then have a career for the rest of our lives. This is all about on ramps and off ramps and lifelong learning, and that's why this model is so important, I think, is that it really recognizes that we need to not just meet our employers where they are, but meet our learners where they are, with all the types of tools that you go over in in this op ed and which, by the way, we will also link up in the show notes. And the folks that are listening to this episode are definitely going to want to read that, because it really does paint a picture of a model of what education should be, and I think will be in the future. But let's talk about some of those key features that the two of you highlighted. And I think maybe we'll go back and forth. And then, if you want to play off each other a little bit, let's start with stackable credentials. And folks are certainly aware that I'm a big fan of stackable credentials, of finding ways to equip students and learners with certain certainly degrees and diplomas and certificates, but also third party certifications that show what competencies and skills that they have and what value they can bring to the workplace. All of this and and not war, we need to have all of these in place. Let's start Sunam with the stackable credentials. Why are the stackable credentials so important? To give our audience a little bit of a sense for how that works.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 15:00

Yeah, so we want to make sure we're honoring learning where it's happening. And learners come to us with a variety of experiences already lived in, and we need to be receptive to that learning, figuring out how it fits within the competencies for these different programs, and giving credit. And so we call that credit for prior learning. And so when Catherine and I sit down with our teams and try to create bridges between our programs. I don't create bridges to nowhere. All of our programs have the ability to upskill and to continue education beyond what we can offer here at CBTC, but these technical credentials allow folks to get to work right away and then continue to upskill and continue to add to that education. You alluded earlier that it's not a linear way of learning anymore, where you go to college once, and that's it, and you're done. No our world is changing so quickly that we need to continue to continue to grow. Catherine and I are growing every day. We're learning every day, and sometimes we add to our education so that we could lead our institution. So stackable credentials are exactly that credit for prior learning, but they could be, as you mentioned, an industry credential, like saca or any others. And then within our programs here at CBTC, you could start with a short term credential, then maybe get a technical diploma, and then that goes into an associate's degree or an apprenticeship. Even our apprenticeships and our trades go into an associate's degree, and then you can continue on to your bachelor's, if you'd like. And then this is where Catherine and I shine. She is the institution that has the most amount of articulation agreements with me. And they're incredibly unique and creative. And so we find ways, on ramps and off ramps for folks to come to us as often as they need to. And so within a learner's life, we may see them in high school, post high school, in the workforce, during work. We even have classrooms in manufacturing plans, like in bloomer we have a wonderful class there where dual credit students come in to learn welding. And we're also taking people off the manufacturing floor, upskilling them, and bringing them back in so they don't have to come to the institution. Really, we're a reflection of the community that we serve, and we are wherever the learner is, and that's what the idea of a stackable credential is. We have veterans that come to us, both Catherine and I had institutions that are veteran friendly and recognized for our work with veterans. And so we honor all of the learning that's taken place during and before coming to us, and we build on that. And that is really the beauty of stackable credentials,

Matt Kirchner: 17:24

not a question. And it really is, and it should be. It hasn't always been, in fact, for a long time, it hasn't, but it should be about, what does the student know? What are they able to do? And then, and then, in the same way in manufacturing, we create waste if we have to do the same job twice, if we have to put the student through the same learning twice learn competencies that they already know that that's that's inefficiency and that's waste. And so the ability to take something like a stackable credential, and thank you for for mentioning the smart automation certification Alliance. Of course, I'm a big fan and do a tremendous amount of work with that organization, but, but, but success with stackable credentials certainly not limited to soccer or to MSSC or some of the ones that I'm involved with. There's a lot of great third party credentialing organizations out there and doing really, really important work, giving students that credit for what they already know. And I think, you know, we've seen a focus on this in the last 10, 1215, years, maybe at the Technical and Community college level, maybe less so certainly for some of the technical certifications Catherine at the university level, you've been a big fan of stackable credentials as well, and I think in some ways still an outlier. I think you know higher education in the university space is coming to see the wisdom in the way that you do things. But talk about that from from your standpoint as well, especially being the Chancellor of a major university, right?

Katherine Frank: 18:44

So you mentioned the pathway right to degree, and again, this is all about flexibility. This is all about building those, those pathways, efficient pathways to degree. So going back to soccer, of course, we have the bs and automation leadership. We've talked a lot about this, Matt, you were in helping to move this forward, but that's a great model of stackable credentials in action, right? Because you can the students can apply learning that can take place as early as high school. That includes credentialing through the through soccer, and students can come to us through that pathway, through tech, the technical education pathway, with 88 credits to degree at stout, and they never need to sit set foot on campus to complete their degree, because we're offering the remainder of that degree online, and that that ability to be flexible, that ability to think about learning in different spaces, with industry, in high school, in the technical colleges at a four year institution, through online mechanisms that. What students need more and more of they need more opportunities for this type of learning, and it's also reflected in just how we operate as a polytechnic. We talk about the Triple Threat graduate. So that's the graduate who leaves us with their their four year degree, with an experiential learning experience that is an internship, a co op, practicum and a professional credential. And why do we want all of our students to graduate as Triple Threat graduates? That's a goal of ours. It's because they become more competitive in the job market. It allows them more flexibility once they leave our institutions to be able to continue to evolve as the workforce, as their roles evolve, because as we think about where emerging technologies, where AI is taking us, where our students enter the workforce, those jobs are going to change, right? They are changing, and we need to have graduates who are able to flex with those changes, so those experiences, that credentialing, the competency based education, that we're able to credit students for that real world learning right, that they're able then to apply to their to their degree pathway, that flexibility is critical for success now and throughout a student's professional journey after they exit our institutions.

Matt Kirchner: 21:25

And I think that the explanation that you just provided Catherine in terms of the the the automation leadership degree, and you were on with Dr David ding, who I want to make sure get some credit here as well. I'm a huge Dr David ding fan also, and and we'll make sure we link that episode up in the in the show notes as well, if people want to go back and listen to that degree, the one aspect of the degree that I want to make sure we highlight you talk about a student coming into an institution like the University of Wisconsin Stout and having 88 credits toward 120 credit baccalaureate degree before they even get there. Certainly there's huge benefits in terms of efficiency and time, but huge benefits economically as well. If you think about you know whether they are earning those certifications and earning those competencies is at a great institution like Chippewa Valley Technical College. Obviously the the economic model at a technical college a little bit different than that of a university, or if they're earning those certifications in high school, you know you get those 88 credits you show up at the University of Wisconsin Stout to your point. You can do it virtually. You don't have to leave your hometown. You can stay working with your with your current employer if you're already in the workforce and you're only paying for those last 32 credits at the university rate. So for any parent that is paid for university tuition or help their student or their child work their way through that, for any student who has endured that, that expense obviously worth it in the end, but, but it can be pretty significant. You're really creating an economic model that meets learners where they are as well. And Sunan, that's where I kind of want to wrap up that last question a little bit is just the flexibility for learners. What are you hearing from students? And I know it might surprise people. In fact, I'll ask you as part of your answer, maybe what the average age of your students is, because I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding at the technical college level about the average student age. But what are you hearing from some of your students in terms of the flexibility that they're now seeing given this partnership with the University of Wisconsin

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 23:23

stuff, absolutely. So I when folks ask me who is a typical student at typical Valley Technical College, I'll ask them, whoever you're thinking of that's our student. So it could be someone who is in currently in high school. 28% of our students are currently take are in high school and taking college level classes with us. It could be someone who just graduated college and has come to us. Most of those students who take credits will come to us. It could be someone already with a baccalaureate. 28% of our students are also already have a four year degree because of the on ramps and off ramps. At some point they need more. Maybe they don't need another baccalaureate or a master's, but maybe they need a technical diploma or maybe they need a credential. So we're seeing all kinds of students with different needs, and the flexibility is key, and so Catherine has alluded to online. A huge part of our population, of our students, are taking classes online. They're working. They have families. They need us to be flexible. We have a blended modality where you take some classes online and some in the at work, as I mentioned, we have classrooms that are on manufacturing floors, so we're really needing to see what is needed from us and how we can be where the learner is. And so our modalities have changed. Sometimes it's just a blend. I don't have childcare this day. I need to switch over to online and listen into the lecture and having the ability for that professor to turn on the camera and say, Okay, we have somebody online today that's normally here. You're not going to miss class. You're not going to drop out because you don't have childcare that day, or you have a sick family. Spouse or whatnot. This. This is where we become flexible. This is where couldn't make it to class today. Here's a work here's a recorded lecture. Come into the lab, get that work in and continue your pace. Flexibility is key. Many of our students, maybe don't even live in our region, but they know the quality of the Wisconsin education, and perhaps there or from other countries. Catherine has a lot of students from other countries who come here for the education that she provides. And so we want to be able to meet the learner where they're at,

Matt Kirchner: 25:30

absolutely, meeting every learner where they're at. And I know that's important, incredibly important, to your your learners, into your point as we as we move deeper and deeper into this world of of lifelong learning. And I can't say that enough, and Catherine alluded to that just a moment ago as well, just how quickly the world is changing and how quickly we need to adapt technical education and education in general. Is there something about sun em, the technical education model that you think makes it particularly well suited to this kind of a partnership, or is this something that could work in any discipline.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 26:00

I think you can work in any discipline. And we just want to make sure that we're articulating where all credits lead to a job. I think students want to know that the work that they've done is going to count towards their next work. So if they've taken a pause and offer it and have gone to work and want to come back, they want to pick up where they left off. They want to have credit for what they've gotten, and then they want to continue on that work. So just making sure that we we are meeting the lawyer where they're at, and technical colleges and poly TechEd universities are laser focused on industry and what and what is needed. And so I think we're uniquely positioned to to articulate credits to jobs and employers. Employers want to know what do you know how to do? They don't want to read complex resumes and all these credits and these courses. That's cool. Well, great, but what do you know how to do? What can you do? And so we also help our students equip themselves with being able to explain to employers what they're what they know how to do, what they're qualified to do, and we're working on making ways to that it's easier for students to articulate what they know. Sometimes our students don't know quite how to position themselves in that light. We share an advisor. I don't know if you know that, Matt, but Catherine and I share an advisor that helps our students stay on track and make sure that they're meeting all the requirements to get to where they're going. So having these shared resources, helping students articulate what they know and then crafting our product in a way that it's very clear to the employer they don't have to understand certifications, they don't have to understand the jargon. They just need to know that a graduate from our schools is going to hit the ground running from day one and is qualified to do the work well.

Matt Kirchner: 27:39

And I love that approach. You know, you think about harkening back to my work with the smart automation certification Alliance, and we have conversations with employers about, you know, do you value third party credentials? And we're still in an age where a lot of employers will shrug their shoulders and say, well, it may be, but I don't know what that is. Or, you know, where that really isn't important to us. And then you start asking them questions about, do you value somebody that can, if you think about coming out of the automation leadership degree or coming out of a industrial mechanics degree program, and you do value somebody that can connect a program, a logic controller, to a robot, to a conveyor, understand mechanical drives, understand fluid power, understand organizational change, understand lean manufacturing, and they'll be like, Well, yeah, of course we value that. Okay, well, these third party credentials are another way for a student to demonstrate to you that they have those skills. But then I like the way you're talking about student, preparing that student to go and really kind of be their own advocate than their own sales person, and be able to explain to an employer who maybe isn't familiar with all these different tools that we're talking about why they should value that and why that makes that particular student that much more valuable. And I really do believe that that is the future of education as we continue to look through and push for disruption, which I mentioned a couple times already, Chancellor Frank has done an incredible job of and and we walked some of this together. You certainly, Catherine, been through a lot more of it than I have. But when we talk about use the term red tape, but it's really kind of the rules and regulations and bureaucracy that, in so many cases, goes along with higher education. I think about our journey through the automation leadership degree, and how many people helped you know what what school to put that program in, and how to define it, and how to make sure that your board was in support of it, and how to make sure that there weren't other other schools, the other universities in the in the UW system, that were converging on it and trying to prevent you from doing it, and then making sure that the port of Regents understood it statewide. I mean, there's just a lot of things. And people, when they ask about a degree program like that, and they're like, we'd like to do that in our state, and it's and my answer is, awesome. We'll help you everything every way we can just know what kind of what you're going to run into along the path. Let's talk about not just the red tape, but how we get around some of that, and whether this new model that we're talking about focusing on workforce, talking about technological change, meeting employers and students where they are, if that's the message that helps get through some. Of that bureaucracy. What would you have to say about that?

Katherine Frank: 30:02

Yeah, absolutely. Matt, I you know, that's part of when we talk about an antiquated approach to education, the the some of the barriers, some of the systems in place, often slow us down to a point that it is not aligned with business and industry. And for both Sun em and myself, we have to move at the speed of business and industry. And that's a culture change, especially at a I think at any institution, I think Sun em would talk about it at CVTC as well. But, you know, I can speak of it, speak to it from a from a four year institution. It's a culture change, and at stout we're in a different place as we think about that educational model. Everything we do, we do in conjunction with business and industry, and soon, then we'll say exactly the same thing. We have program advisory committees for every single one of our academic programs. They inform everything we do, from equipment in our labs and studios to our curriculum to what's on the horizon, etc. But we have to move along at the speed that they will need us to move along right. And so I can control what happens at I well, I can. I can influence what happens at stout and and, you know, as we, as we think about our identity as a polytechnic university, we have made the comprehensive decision that we are moving faster and for a four year institution, we move faster than most. That's what I can control. I can't control what happens when we leave our institutions for for approvals, but we have to challenge the systems that are in place so that we can continue to move faster. And that's not a reactive model, right? That is a strategic model you have to have, that you have to have the structure in place that's going to allow you to adjust in the moment, right? But plan for the future and to stay ahead and not in a reactive mode. And I think that's what that's what both Sun Em and I try to do as as leaders of our institution. It's definitely in terms of how we function together in the work that we do and and it's what the future is going to be demanding. It's already here, but it's going to continue to ramp up in terms of what is, what it's expecting and demanding of higher education in all of its different forms.

Matt Kirchner: 32:35

No question, and our audience knows why we love Chancellor Frank, because of an answer like that. And we talked, you know, I read a book a few years ago, probably more than that, probably more like 15 years ago, believe it or not. It was called Lessons from private equity that any company can use, and I would say, really, any organization it can use it. And one of the things that that book goes deep into is that every organization is one or one of two, in one of two modes, you're either at cause or at effect. And what they say is, when you're at effect, it means you're just reacting to everything that's happening around you really, really hard, if not impossible, to lead. When you're in that mode, when you're at cause, you are taking control of what you have the ability to at least influence. And we all know, as leaders of organizations, you can't always control everything, but you certainly know what's inside of your sphere of influence and organizations that are at cause and are actively trying to change the world around them, those are organizations, first of all, that are really fun to be around and doing really, really innovative things. And so I've always carried that lesson, that lesson with me, and I think that's exactly the spirit of that last answer, Catherine, in terms of making sure that you're being strategic and not just what's reacting to what's happening around you. And certainly you're a shining example. Of doing that. The automation leadership degree is a shining example of that. But there are other examples, Sun em, if I'm not mistaken, in fact, I know there are of areas in which your two organizations have partnered, or that you're looking at at how you can work together to add even more more value for your students and your communities and your employers. So talk a little bit more about the other transfer agreements and the other relationships that your two institutions have. Sun em, if you wouldn't mind providing some examples, certainly.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 34:10

So you know, part of the concern around the red tape that was being mentioned is loss of rigor, right? We need to be more rigorous. We need to check all of our boxes, but that takes time, as Catherine was saying, and we don't have time to lose, not in a fast moving environment that we're in. And so we don't need less rigor, and we can still have academic quality and still move quickly. And so we can change elements of our programs to react quickly. We can embed things. We can change the way we teach without having to overhaul the entire structure, which slows us down. So stout has been, to your question, a wonderful partner in coming up with new articulation agreements and new ways to serve our students. So an example you guys have already mentioned it talked about, is that automation leadership agreement that we have launching soon with stout that degree is found. Fantastic higher ed is known with technical community colleges doing a two plus two, but a three plus one isn't common, and so that's pretty unique, and we're thrilled to be a part of that. But certainly we have other examples as well. Stout has been wonderful about upskilling our faculty. Many of our faculty are already stout grads, so when we have our reaffirmation days, which you talk about, if you want to talk about what those look like, it's wonderful because it's like coming home. They love being around stout. They love being around friends and family that are part of the institution. And so stout has been wonderful about taking the professional faculty work that we do with our faculty as a credit for prior learning and helping upskill them. So that has been wonderful. And also one really neat and unique articulation agreement that we just signed is around landscape plant and turf into their golf enterprise management. And that was kind of cool to see that. And that's a very unique pathway so that these students can continue to grow. Another one is the rehabilitation criminal justice major at stout sends their students to us to complete the Law Enforcement Academy. So it's a lot of ways of that, on ramp and on ramp and off ramp. It goes both ways. Traffic is not flowing in one direction. We're being complementary and our missions not competitive, and it's by design. We're doing this by design, as we are looking at our programs and realizing what we can do with what we had and how we can better serve the community. So those are just a couple of examples, and just this last reaffirmation day, we signed six allied health programs that are now going to articulate into biology. We have 37 articulation agreements with stout presently, and they're strong in producing quality graduates.

Matt Kirchner: 36:50

Think about that. I mean 37 opportunities for students to for you to meet students where they are, for them to study where it makes the most sense, whether it's geographically, whether it's where they are in their education pathway, whether it's economically creating all these opportunities, it really is. I mean, it's a one plus one equals three. I mean, it's just it's creating an incredible new model for education. I guess another follow up question to them, and I know working with with with someone like Catherine, who's so open to just finding a way to make these things work, and not, not putting up walls or saying, This is why it can't work, but this is how we're going to make it work. You know, is you think about how you how you align your curriculum and your programs with and vice versa. Talk about that. I mean, do we have to make changes on both sides to make sure that that alignment is, is there soon enough? Tell us. Tell us about that. And then I'll ask the same question of Catherine. Absolutely.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 37:42

I think the secret sauce is having great Provost, and we have been blessed with wonderful chief academic officers that understand how we think and how we feel, and have helped us make it happen. Catherine and I ideate on, wouldn't it be awesome? And having you considered, I love those conversations, and then people help us make it happen, and that means getting people into the same room. And so we have what we call reaffirmation days, which is a once a semester or once a year, we get together, and we bring our faculty, we bring our administrators and our deans, and Catherine and I open up the day with a shared vision of what we want to accomplish, and then let the magic happen. We're there, and everybody feels compelled to look at our programs and saying, How can we build more articulations? How can we be better partners? How can we serve the community better? And then we celebrate those ideas and make them happen. Throughout the year, we'll also go after grants together or anything that will help strengthen our region, and we This is our fifth year, going on these reaffirmation days, and they're really, truly wonderful. It's celebratory environment. It's a party really going on, lots of smiles and laughter. And I think one of our faculty said it best, you know, science is science wherever it's taught, and so we have more in common that we have differences, but we know that our region needs all different types of educational and secondary, post secondary education, and so to serve properly, no one can do it all, and it's so much better with partnerships.

Katherine Frank: 39:12

I want to add two things, Matt, because I just love the way sunnim describes the Ria, and it was Sunni's vision for the reaffirmation day. So she brought that when she came to Wisconsin, and it's just been hugely successful, not just with stout, but with Eau Claire as well as with River Falls. So kudos to sunium for that. But one of the things we emphasize when we speak at that session, but really, whenever we're together with our faculty, is we are adopting a yes mentality. This is not about we can't do this. We've never done it this way. How can we possibly get through this barrier? It is, it is. How are we going to make this work? How can we make this work? How do we say yes to this? So I think that's a very intentional message that sunem And I deliver and and we hear it echo then throughout the work, in whatever context that we're in. The other thing that is very important is for the public to see us like this. Sunium and I show up together quite a bit in different different areas. Again, we have many of the same business and industry partners, people. The public needs to see us together, connected with those business and industry partners. They need to hear the message of how our institutions work together collaboratively in order to support the workforce of this great state. We are addressing, and we have been addressing, I think proactively, that which has been that which higher education has been criticized as not doing right. So if you think about everything we've talked about today, we are preparing our students for a pathway to success after they are finished at our institutions. We are creating flexibility for students to have an educational experience at different points in their personal and professional journey. We are paying attention to the cost of education, we are building support structures to help our students at whatever point they enter or exit our institutions to be successful, and we have been doing that the relationship with CVTC, I look back at the articulation agreements, our first one that we can trace back is over 20 years old, so we've been doing this for decades, and so it's again, important for people to hear us and see us together and to understand how our work is synergistic. It's not it's not exclusive, right? So, and I think we set a really good example for others to follow.

Matt Kirchner: 42:01

There's no question but that you're setting a really good example for others to follow, and showing up together and all these different events. I'll tell you, there's nothing more special than showing up together on the TechEd podcast, though, so So thank you for that, the but, but, and I think as people are listening to this or watching this podcast, they're recognizing the incredible relationship the two of you have, and how supportive you are, you are of one another. And soon, em, did you want to jump in there was, did I see you? Yes.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 42:27

Well, this is not new to Catherine and I she starts talking, we both start thinking about, yeah. And one more thing, but this is kind of important, Matt, sometimes we need to be the ones who change in our own sector or in our own system. And so I'm no stranger to the Board of Regents. Catherine can catapal me to, you know, come and tell our story. And from my perspective, we realized that again, 113 years old, we've been doing things the same way for a long time. Our general education credits just took up too much space, and we I really couldn't be a great partner to Catherine the way I wanted to be, because my own constraints of what I had to teach for my programs was, from my opinion, inflexible, and so we had to convince 15 other schools, technical colleges, to change their way, and then our state office to see what we were envisioning, and saying, can we be more flexible? Can we have more electives so that I can craft better articulation? Because the way that our two systems were created, transfer was not top of mind. As a matter of fact, sometimes I wonder if they even thought that we could. And so we have really worked with what we have and transformed to the best of our ability, using the tools that we have to create these on ramps and off ramps, and so that was a huge win for my Provost, part, convincing 15 other academic people from different institutions that this is the way to go, and then showing ourselves as that model, and we were successful. So that means that we can be in our own systems. We can be change agents so that we can better serve the community and self and serve each other,

Matt Kirchner: 44:04

no question. And it's a strong message, I think, for the leaders of other institutions, be they the UW system or universities across the United States, the Wisconsin Technical College System. And really some you know, you think about Layla Merrifield. You think about Jay Rothman. I mean, these are people, and I know them both well. And for our listeners, that would be respectively the president of the Wisconsin Technical College System and the in the president of the Wisconsin University, University of Wisconsin System, just really people that are open to innovation. And I think that is, in a lot of ways, what is enabling our home state of Wisconsin to set the example for the rest of the country in so many ways, including the ones that we're talking about today. I want to make sure we give the students, some exact student examples, some credit, and talk about specific students that you, each of you, maybe point to one that you can think of, that that has set the example that has benefited from the type of partnership that has been created. Between your two institutions and Sunam, why don't you go first? You have a student story you'd like to share with the audience.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 45:06

We do. We have a student that immigrated from Iraq, and he quickly became a favorite here at the college just because of his enthusiasm, his incredible story how he helped our military and his country and immigrated here, and all of the experience that he brought with him, and he grew and blossomed here at CVTC and basically in the area of manufacturing. And then it was time to transfer, and to our delight, he picked a stout to do that. And I said, Well, you're just if you love it here, wait till you get to stout. And so we were able to hand off the student, and I think Catherine, he just got his master's from you guys, and he's just beside himself with excitement. And we have really shown him what education looks like here in United States. And throughout the entire time, he was working and growing and taking on more responsibility. And so we're excited. We're endlessly proud of him, and we probably both have featured him on a billboard or two, because he's just that perfect example of a student that sticks with it, who comes here willing to put in the work and to be invested. So we're very proud

Matt Kirchner: 46:14

of him. You should be proud of him. What amazing Providence to be able to land anywhere and have that place be an amazing place like Chippewa Valley Technical College, and it's just really an example of how the work that you're doing truly changed, changes lives, and that individual's life would not have ever been on the trajectory that it that it ended up on, had it not been for your leadership, your faculty and your team and them. So So credit to you and and Catherine. I'm sure you've got plenty of examples, as well as there a student you'd like to point to us. Point to a similar example or a different one.

Katherine Frank: 46:44

For that matter, I just featured that particular student and graduation remarks in December graduate school ceremony, but there's always what I do at graduation. Matt is my script is comprised of student stories, so I ask our faculty and staff to submit stories so that I can tell the story of stout through the lens of our students who that's why we're we do. What we do is for our students. And so every single year, there is a story connected somewhere about a transfer from CVTC. And so a transfer student from CVTC, and so this year, that student that that sunium just talked about, but when I think of the undergraduate ceremonies, I believe I was talking about one student who graduated from the healthcare areas and is going on to graduate a graduate program in, I think, neuroscience, and during that student's time here at the institution, right using that experience from CVTC, as she was working, came to stout because she really wanted that applied research experience, which helped to shape her trajectory into the graduate school track. And there is always a story that is connected to transferability, oftentimes with CVTC. But students come from us to us from all over. So whenever I'm able to tell the story of that transfer experience, and they're in their broad in terms of of the details, it's something to celebrate. So yeah, we share a lot of students, and we share a lot of success stories,

Matt Kirchner: 48:34

and I just love hearing stories, stories like that, and these opportunities for students to just create, like we said a moment ago, entirely different trajectories for their lives because of the great work that you and your teams are doing. So I know as folks are listening Catherine to this episode, especially those working in higher education, they're like, all right, I want to do this, but I need a little bit of advice, a couple nuggets that you might share with with those individuals, of how they can go about innovation of this

Katherine Frank: 49:01

type, you have to shift the mindset into that yes mentality. Instead of saying, this barrier exists, this barrier exists, this barrier exists. Where are the pathways? Where is the way? Right? Because there's always a pathway through the noise, right? There's always some a way to work through what I call those perturbations right those moments that disrupt your forward momentum, but that you might learn something from and you can regroup and refocus. But for us, it's about being open to partnership, about being open to partnership with our technical college partners, with our business and industry partners. It's looking for the possibilities, and you better be planning and for us, you know, and I'm sure Sunil will say the same thing, it's not about tomorrow. It's not about three years from now, right? It's not about five years from now. You need to be looking out on that horizon, 10 to 15 years out or beyond, and start making the changes you need to make today.

Matt Kirchner: 49:59

Yeah. Way out into the future, finding ways to say, Yes, I love the idea of finding a pathway through the noise, because that's that's exactly right. There's always a way, and you just need to look for it and be willing to fight a few of the battles along the way, and soon. Now, what would you add to that, that piece of advice that the chancellor just shared with us,

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 50:18

yeah, today's learners aren't writing one chapter in a book. They're writing a whole series. And we want to be part of their lives and their trajectory, where we're not just a one time thing. We are partners in their life and in their learning, and we want to be partners to our industry as well. And so position yourself that way. Find your people, find people who align with your thinking, and then be a good partner. Be a good partner, knowing that you need to advance your sector and you need to do your work. But we don't have to do it alone, and we really shouldn't the our community. Communities need all of us. And don't forget your K 12 partners. They are essential to Catherine and I, and be good advocates for those as well, especially when they're not in the room.

Matt Kirchner: 50:59

Absolutely, we could do a whole episode on those k 12 partners and the great things happening at that level as well. But I like the idea of being a good partner, keeping your promises, following through on what you say you're going to do. Really important looking out into the future soon. Point one last question for each of you, let's, let's dream about the future for just a moment. It's 2026 now. Hard to believe today's students that are, you know, that are now late in middle school, early in high school, will be entering post secondary in the year 2030, what does education look like for a student that's graduating from high school four or five years

Katherine Frank: 51:33

from now? Emerging Technologies, right? And individualized learning and flexibility these you need to think about how these students have grown up and what's coming behind them too, and we need to be ready for it. We need to be ready for how that's influencing the workforce as well. So these are students who understand technology and in ways that many of us have not experienced great now, absolutely great down. It's going to speed up.

Matt Kirchner: 52:07

It is only going to speed up. Catherine, that's absolutely true. Sunam, what would you add?

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 52:11

I would say that they're not choosing between career and college or doing both, and they're moving fluidly in between, because probably they started their college career while they were in high school. So they're already coming in with credits. They're already having probably, hopefully, an industry credential if they went to one of our high school academies. So they have already hit the ground running. They can go to work whenever they choose, and they don't have to. They can do both, and our institutions will be there to guide them where they are, so that fluidity between college and career will be seamless as well.

Matt Kirchner: 52:42

That is what the future is going to look like for education. And I love this idea of moving fluidly through different sectors of education, different types of education, throughout our entire life. That's what this entire episode has been about. Absolutely fascinating to me to have this conversation with two leaders who our audience now knows are really innovating and changing the world of higher education. Dr Catherine, Frank of the University of Wisconsin, stout and Dr Sunan beaten Garcia, president of Chippewa Valley Technical College. Great great institutions, great leaders in higher education, great innovators. Thank you both for being on a wonderful conversation.

Sunem Beaton-Garcia: 53:18

Thank you, Matt. Thank you. Thank you for having us, and thanks

Matt Kirchner: 53:21

to everybody for being with us on this episode of The TechEd podcast. We had all kinds of resources and examples. We will link all those up in both check them out. We'll put those at TechEd podcast.com/disruption that's where you find the show notes when you're done there. Check us out on social media, our YouTube channel has been absolutely blowing up over the course of the last 678, weeks since we've been posting all of our episodes on YouTube. You can check us out on 45 podcast platforms. We're also all over Facebook. We are on YouTube, we are on Instagram, we are on LinkedIn. Wherever you go to consume your social media, you will find the TechEd podcast. Stop by. Say hello. We would love to hear from you. Can't wait to see everybody next week on our next episode of The TechEd podcast, until then, I am your host. Matt Kirkner, thank you for being with us. You.